Post/Author/DateTime	Post
boggler65 05-01-07, 05:00 PM	From what I remember (I'm not in the mood right now to go through dozens of sourcebooks) the sourcebooks let us know for sure that the following deities have chosen; Mystra Bane Ellistrae (I think I recall one of Mystra's chosen also being Chosen of Ellistrae) Other sources *ahem, novels, ahem* say that Mask also has chosen, as well as Deneir, and possibly others. My point is that it does actually make sense for pretty much every god to have at least 1 chosen, since the chosen would affect their overall power less than having an active avatar would. If I recall Mystra was actually able to have a Chosen and at the same time have an Avatar. Anyway I would like some ideas for chosen templates, specifically for Deneir and Oghma, though any others that you can come up with would be great. It would seem to me that chosen of Deneir are able to cast clerical spells without any preperation prior to the casting, and that they can cast any clerical spell in existence. So if you've got idea's lets see em.
Dielzen 05-01-07, 05:55 PM	There's this cool sticky thread at the top of the page called "Important Thread Index."
Lord Karsus 05-01-07, 07:32 PM	-Just so you have it, here is the "List of Chosen": Chosen Mystra Elminster Aumar Storm Silverhand Laeral Silverhand Alustrial Silverhand The Simbul Sylune Silverhand Qilue Veladorn Dove Falconhand Noumea Drathchuld Alvaerele Tasundrym Symrustar Auglamyr (Deceased) Khelben Arunsun (Deceased) Sammaster (Depowered and Deceased) The Srinshee Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep Nadrathen (Deceased) Bane Fzoul Chembryl Cyric Malik el Sami yn Nasser Deneir Cadderly Bonaduce Pertelope (Deceased) Eilistraee Qilue Veladorn Eldath Ashenford Torinbow Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers Shinthala Deepcrest Gilgleam Shuruppak (Ex-Chosen since Gilgleam's death) Mask Kesson Rel Avner of Hartsvale Erevis Cale Drasek Riven Mielikki Jeryth Phaulkon Ashenford Torinbow Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers Shinthala Deepcrest Oghma Sephris Dwendon Shar A Mysterious Being Silvanus Ashenford Torinbow Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers Shinthala Deepcrest Talona The Rotting Man Tiamat Tchazzar Ubtao Alisandra Rayburton Dhlamass Rayburton Ras Ni Fipya Kwalu Mainu Ossaw I Umberlee Slarkrathel Malar Anth-Malar Lolth Liriel Baenre (possibly but might be a ExChosen) Halisstra Melarn, the Lady Penitent Merrshaulk/Sseth Pil'it'ith (Ex-Chosen) Sehanine Moonbow Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep Labelas Enoreth Vartan Hai Sylver The Seldarine Queen Amlaruil of Evermeet Ilyrana Gzimnind Skixtalq Possible Chosen Gruumsh Obould Many-Arrows Erevan Illesere Fox-at-Twilight Teylas Yamun Khahan Qotal Erix
The Ranger 05-02-07, 01:01 AM	Lolth Liriel Baenre (possibly but might be a ExChosen) Halisstra Melarn, the Lady Penitent I was under the impression from the WotSQ books that Quenthel was also considered a Chosen of Lolth since she and the others, er, did what they did (I fear the black bars of Those Who Watch). But I totally agree that Obould Many Arrows is the Chosen of Gruumsh.
Lord Karsus 05-02-07, 09:11 AM	I was under the impression from the WotSQ books that Quenthel was also considered a Chosen of Lolth since she and the others, er, did what they did (I fear the black bars of Those Who Watch). -No, Quenthel was not, nor was she ever a Chosen. The novel is pretty explicit in saying who the "Yorthe" (Sp?) was. But I totally agree that Obould Many Arrows is the Chosen of Gruumsh. -Maybe, maybe not. As of yet, he isn't. The only reason I keep him up there, actually, is because so many people believe that he is a Chosen, though clearly, as per his most recent stats in the FRCS, he is not.
The Ranger 05-02-07, 07:06 PM	-No, Quenthel was not, nor was she ever a Chosen. The novel is pretty explicit in saying who the "Yorthe" (Sp?) was. Didn't they all here the call of the chosen? At least that's how I interpretted it. I'm actually in the process of rereading them, so when I get to book 6 I'll reexamine it. -Maybe, maybe not. As of yet, he isn't. The only reason I keep him up there, actually, is because so many people believe that he is a Chosen, though clearly, as per his most recent stats in the FRCS, he is not. FRCS is pretty old and I don't believe Obould had gone through the ritual that have him superspeed, strength all those other powers when it was published.
Mad Mage 05-02-07, 11:09 PM	For the official Chosen of Deneir template please see this page (http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_deneir).
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 09:17 AM	FRCS is pretty old and I don't believe Obould had gone through the ritual that have him superspeed, strength all those other powers when it was published. -I'm a stickler on this. The Hunter's Blade Trilogy took place in DR 1369. The stats in the FRCS are from 1372. Thus, even though the HBT was published after the FRCS, the FRCS stats are the most current, timeline wise.
Zevox 05-03-07, 03:02 PM	Anyway I would like some ideas for chosen templates, specifically for Deneir and Oghma, though any others that you can come up with would be great. No canon template for the Chosen of Oghma has been made, but the novels in which he appears shows him to have only a single blessing from the Binder - (Spoiler for the Erevis Cale Trilogy) he can think in a way no one else can, taking seemingly nonsense numbers and computing just about anything, from what an item does to what will happen in the future. The list LK posted is missing one "possible Chosen" - back when the list was first made it was debated whether Jherek of Velen (from the Threat from the Sea novels) was a Chosen of Lathander. I don't think he is, but some do apparently. *shrugs* Zevox
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 05:31 PM	The list LK posted is missing one "possible Chosen" - back when the list was first made it was debated whether Jherek of Velen (from the Threat from the Sea novels) was a Chosen of Lathander. I don't think he is, but some do apparently. *shrugs* -Never read the series, so I've never even heard of the guy. Why do people think he/she's a Chosen of Lathander?
Old Sage 05-03-07, 09:34 PM	I remember the debates... though most weren't very convincing. The fact remains -- there is no Chosen of Lathander actually referenced in canon.
Borris 05-03-07, 10:16 PM	-Never read the series, so I've never even heard of the guy. Why do people think he/she's a Chosen of Lathander? Spoiler from The Sea Devil's Eye It's been years since I read that trilogy but, at some point in the third book, when Jherek accepts to serve Lathander, the god speaks to him and says: "You are now my chosen champion." That may or may not be the eact wording, but the phrase "chosen champion" is definitely said. The debate was about whether that simply meant Jherek had been accepted as a paladin of Lathander or if that meant an actual FR Chosen. I'm leaning toward the former. Someone had pointed that a god wouldn't speak directly to someone who's not a Chosen, but Laqueel the malenti hears the voice of Eldath not once but twice, so that may just be how Mel Odom sees the gods.
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 10:59 PM	Spoiler from The Sea Devil's Eye It's been years since I read that trilogy but, at some point in the third book, when Jherek accepts to serve Lathander, the god speaks to him and says: "You are now my chosen champion." That may or may not be the eact wording, but the phrase "chosen champion" is definitely said. The debate was about whether that simply meant Jherek had been accepted as a paladin of Lathander or if that meant an actual FR Chosen. I'm leaning toward the former. Someone had pointed that a god wouldn't speak directly to someone who's not a Chosen, but Laqueel the malenti hears the voice of Eldath not once but twice, so that may just be how Mel Odom sees the gods. -That's it? :rolleyes: -Sage is right...That wasn't very convincing. And, who said that deities don't speak directly anyone except their Chosen? That is completely wrong...How many special conversations did Mystra have with Adon shortly after her apotheosis? He was no Chosen...
Zevox 05-03-07, 11:51 PM	The exact quote: "Who are you?" Jherek whispered, not as afraid of the answer as he had been back in Velen when he had first contemplated it. I am the spring, dawn, birth, and renewal, my son. I am beginnings and hidden potential. I am conception, vitality, youth, and self-perfection. Know that I am Lathander, called the Morninglord. And you, my son, are one of my chosen champions. Like Borris, I think he was simply referring to being chosen as a Paladin. Particularly given he said "champions" plural, and we know of no others that can even be argued to be a Chosen of his. Zevox
MalariaMoon 05-04-07, 05:26 PM	Well I guess the first stop for a Chosen of Deneir is to look at Cadderly Bonaduce from the Cleric Quintet. He's a good character with some powerful abilities, but your own Chosen template wouldn't necessarily have to follow the same lines. In my own campaign a Chosen of Deneir has resided in Candlekeep for centuries, scribing history and lore without pause. A little like the scribe in the library of Palanthas from the Dragonlance campaign (name escapes me), but not half as calm. He serves as great sage NPC for my PCs to consult. I haven't defined his powers with games mechanics; but he is more or less immortal within the confines of Candlekeep, can speak, write and understand any current or historical language of the Realms, and has an automatic knowledge of the full history of any character he speaks with.
Borris 05-05-07, 05:47 PM	Thanks for finding the exact quote, Zevox. I tried too, but gave up after 10 minutes of page-flipping. The plural form of champions really closes the debate. Also, looking at the large dark blot in my post, I realize I should have used a Hide tag instead of a Spoiler one. How do you put hidden text in a post already? I've done it before but I can't seem to remember how.
GothicDan 05-05-07, 06:07 PM	That and the fact that in the sentence, "champions" is a noun, and "chosen" is pretty clearly an adjective...
Lord Karsus 05-05-07, 06:20 PM	Also, looking at the large dark blot in my post, I realize I should have used a Hide tag instead of a Spoiler one. How do you put hidden text in a post already? I've done it before but I can't seem to remember how. -You used 'SPOILER'. You want to use 'SBLOCK'.
erikscottdebie 05-09-07, 10:10 PM	Erevan Illesere Fox-at-Twilight What interesting speculation. Cheers
Lord Karsus 05-10-07, 12:29 AM	What interesting speculation. Cheers -Hey, I was told by a credible source that you were the one who confirmed it. To quote my cridible source, Erik Scott de Bie (Fox-at-Twilight's creator) confirms that she is a Chosen of Ereven - though he leaves it specifically vague just what abilities she has that are the results of that status.
Fingoldfin 05-10-07, 01:31 AM	I thought Gwen the Quick (Pal 20) was the chosen of Torm. He is dead, but after he died he fought Dendar the Night Serpent and won.
Old Sage 05-10-07, 01:43 AM	-Hey, I was told by a credible source that you were the one who confirmed it. To quote my cridible source,I think what Erik means is... Twilight's status has yet to be "fully and officially" confirmed completely in canon -- in other words, it's not actually something stated in sourcebooks. For now, it's just an interpretation the reader picks up from Twilight's published appearances so far. In some of the Candlekeep Book Club [or was it in Erik's 'Questions' scroll] discussions regarding Twilight's status, Erik tell us that he established a pretty strong connection for the "special" relationship that exists between Twilight and Erevan through several passages in Depths of Madness. And that's mostly what I thought when I read through them myself. That's enough for me to believe that Twilight does in fact enjoy a unique status of sorts among Erevan's faithful, and that Erik will elaborate further on that status if and when he has the opportunity to do so. And so long as it isn't contradicted by WotC in future FR source material, 'tis likely to remain that way.
Steelwind 05-10-07, 04:35 AM	-I'm a stickler on this. The Hunter's Blade Trilogy took place in DR 1369. The stats in the FRCS are from 1372. Thus, even though the HBT was published after the FRCS, the FRCS stats are the most current, timeline wise. Lord Karsus, my good sir, your logic is well within reason, as yes the FRCS came out after the timeline from the books. But in real time, the events of the Hunters Blade Trilogy, or more specifically The Lone Drow which came out in 2004, happened three years after the FRCS was published. So it would be quite impossible to post stats regarding an event that hadnt even happened yet. Just take his equipment as an example, such as the new armor and helm that were crafted for him, and compare it to his writeup in the FRCS.
Steelwind 05-10-07, 04:49 AM	And on another matter, while not on the top of my wish list, I would like to see a new NPC Lorebook fully updating and describing the various NPC's of Faerun.
Khaelieth 05-10-07, 06:05 AM	I thought Shurrupak changed to Tiamat/Tchazzar at some point?
Lord Karsus 05-10-07, 09:07 AM	I thought Gwen the Quick (Pal 20) was the chosen of Torm. He is dead, but after he died he fought Dendar the Night Serpent and won. -There is no indication that he is, or ever was. Lord Karsus, my good sir, your logic is well within reason, as yes the FRCS came out after the timeline from the books. But in real time, the events of the Hunters Blade Trilogy, or more specifically The Lone Drow which came out in 2004, happened three years after the FRCS was published. So it would be quite impossible to post stats regarding an event that hadnt even happened yet. Just take his equipment as an example, such as the new armor and helm that were crafted for him, and compare it to his writeup in the FRCS. -Salvatore shouldn't write novels that take place in the past, then. Simple enough solution. Again, Obould's stats, as per the latest official canon material on the Orc have to be the ones in the FRCS. Concerning armor and the like...There is a few year gap between Obould in 1369 and Obould in 1372. Any differences in equipment can surely be chocked up to this. I thought Shurrupak changed to Tiamat/Tchazzar at some point? -Not as far as I know.
erikscottdebie 05-10-07, 11:16 AM	I think what Erik means is... Twilight's status has yet to be "fully and officially" confirmed completely in canon -- in other words, it's not actually something stated in sourcebooks. For now, it's just an interpretation the reader picks up from Twilight's published appearances so far. Yup. It has not been established one way or another, and until it is, I can't comment one way or another. From many things Twilight has *said*, it's a reasonable assumption. But there isn't any particular reason to trust anything she says. There's also one particular scene in Depths that seems to contradict her "chosen" status. Cheers
Lord Karsus 05-10-07, 12:52 PM	Yup. It has not been established one way or another, and until it is, I can't comment one way or another. From many things Twilight has *said*, it's a reasonable assumption. But there isn't any particular reason to trust anything she says. There's also one particular scene in Depths that seems to contradict her "chosen" status. Cheers -Sage led me to believe that is was official fact that she was a Chosen. I'll switch her to the 'Possible Chosen' list for the time being, then.
Old Sage 05-10-07, 08:02 PM	I didn't mean to imply Twilight was "officially" interpreted as Chosen. Rather, it was more an "almost all signs point to yes"-type of statement. Sorry LK. ;)
Lord Karsus 05-10-07, 08:23 PM	I didn't mean to imply Twilight was "officially" interpreted as Chosen. Rather, it was more an "almost all signs point to yes"-type of statement. Sorry LK. ;) -It's okay- No one died... ;) -All it took to rectify the problem was a little copying and pasting from here to there. When you told me, I thought that Mr. De Bie said over at the 'Keep that she was officially a Chosen of Erevan Illsere.
Old Sage 05-10-07, 08:28 PM	Aye. I think I may have been, intentionally, reading too much into what Erik and I were discussing about Twilight's "special" relationship with Erevan. It's likely that I may have put a little of my own hope for Twilight [as a Chosen] into that original statement I'd made about Twilight being an official Chosen of Erevan. I'm not saying that she isn't, or won't be... more that, all we have at this point to base Twilight's status as a Chosen, are a few of Erik's comments and parts of the Depths of Madness novel [all of which don't specifically say "Chosen"] -- not enough to ground it, completely, into canon.
GothicDan 05-11-07, 02:12 AM	Of course, it'd be silly, to me, if all Gods directly referred to their favored champions as Chosen. ;)
Old Sage 05-11-07, 03:20 AM	Of course. I'm actually thinking more of what we would be told in a printed sourcebook... where specifics about the Chosen of particular deities have to be nailed down directly. I'm all for being vague about a particular character's status as a Chosen of a particular deity, in a novel -- much as Erik has done with Twilight in Depths of Madness. It hasn't been completely confirmed, nor has it been denied either. We know, simply, that Twilight "enjoys" some type of special relationship with Erevan -- whether or not she is actually "a Chosen of Erevan", and whether or not it is directly stated as such, shouldn't really matter. I'm still of the belief that "Mystra's Chosen" should be the only "Chosen" directly referred to as such.
GothicDan 05-11-07, 03:25 AM	Indeed. Really, I don't know why the other deities even mechanically have to be referred to as Chosen. It's not hard for them to make, say, the "High Loremaster of Oghma" template versus a "Chosen of Oghma" template.
Lord Karsus 05-11-07, 09:54 AM	Really, I don't know why the other deities even mechanically have to be referred to as Chosen. It's not hard for them to make, say, the "High Loremaster of Oghma" template versus a "Chosen of Oghma" template. -Because that requires some degree of creativity...Anyway, I like that idea too, but with the sheer amount of deities in the Realms, and the amount of possible Chosen that they could have, I'd be worried about things getting to "complicated", you know.
GothicDan 05-11-07, 10:30 AM	What, to have to think of a title for each? Sooo haaard.... All of those thousands upon thousands (millions?) of words to choose from! ;)
Old Sage 05-11-07, 11:31 AM	Indeed. GD's note about the title for a potential "Chosen" of Oghma could easily be derived from the existing clerical ranks that have been previously published in the Realmslore for each deity -- a specialised title that reflects that individual divine champion's unique relationship with his/her deity.
Lord Karsus 05-11-07, 01:52 PM	-Don't you realize the sheer amount of heartburn that would cause to the people who don't exactly understand the concept of the Chosen to begin with? Think of the ignorant masses, and have pity. It's not their fault...:P -I can hear it now..."Why can't Tymora have a High Loremaster? So, if Bane can have a High Holy Tyrant, why can't Torm? What's the difference between the Chosen of Mystra and the Five of Mask?" -Ugh...
Swiftblade 05-15-07, 10:03 PM	Lord Karsus, not to sound like an unmitigated arse, but in reference to your comment that R.A shouldn't write books in the past. I read that they are not going to update NPC's and other data everytime a new source book or novel comes out, think of the complications that would come about from that. And to shoot down anyone who has a thought about something and saying well, the book says this. Remember this is just a game and that all of them are to be referred to as guidelines not life or death. As a DM you may or maynot change things as you see fit. I usually love reading your comments, but thought the jab at R.A. was a little rude. Thanks. And as for other chosen, I had a group I DM'd that I made all chosen of their God's which included a paladin of Helm, Cleric of Gond, Rogue of Tymora, Fighter of Tempus and Wizard of Mystra(yeah yeah, I know not very inventive on that last one). All I did is look at the Chosen of Mystra and Chosen of Bane templates and gave them comparible abilities and stat changes that fit their God's faith.
GothicDan 05-15-07, 10:50 PM	As a DM you may or maynot change things as you see fit. I usually love reading your comments, but thought the jab at R.A. was a little rude. Thanks. Man. Some people are so caught up on rudeness that it makes personal opinions less and less 'kosher' to convey in public. ;)
Lord Karsus 05-15-07, 11:30 PM	Man. Some people are so caught up on rudeness that it makes personal opinions less and less 'kosher' to convey in public. ;) :rimshot: Lord Karsus, not to sound like an unmitigated arse, but in reference to your comment that R.A shouldn't write books in the past. I read that they are not going to update NPC's and other data everytime a new source book or novel comes out, think of the complications that would come about from that. -Which reinforces my point, methinks. And to shoot down anyone who has a thought about something and saying well, the book says this. Remember this is just a game and that all of them are to be referred to as guidelines not life or death. As a DM you may or maynot change things as you see fit. -Yeah, you see, there is something called canon... I usually love reading your comments, but thought the jab at R.A. was a little rude. Thanks. -Gotta love that 1st Amendment, eh?
Steelwind 05-16-07, 05:03 AM	-Yeah, you see, there is something called canon... LK, and I ask this out of simple curiosity, are you saying that your campaigns, be they in FR, DL, wherever, are totally utterly 100% canonical?
GothicDan 05-16-07, 10:40 AM	LK doesn't run games in the Realms. And he also doesn't write canon novels for WotC... And nor is RAS running a private game.
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 11:06 AM	LK, and I ask this out of simple curiosity, are you saying that your campaigns, be they in FR, DL, wherever, are totally utterly 100% canonical? LK doesn't run games in the Realms. And he also doesn't write canon novels for WotC... And nor is RAS running a private game. -Thank you, Dan. I run my campaigns in my own personal setting, which I made up, so everything that happens is canon. :) -If a person is running their own personal campaign, and they divulge from canon, that's their perogative. I think it's safe to assume that most people do, to one degree or another. As Dan mentioned, Salvatore writes canon novels, not private campaign adventures. If you are going to write canon novels, don't you think it would just be...courteous to other authors, designers and everyone else to not "rock the boat" too much with retroactive and proactive retcons?
GothicDan 05-16-07, 11:10 AM	I'd certainly try to not rock the boat! But I guess that's why I'm a Moderate and not a Liberal. ;)
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 11:20 AM	-I'm more moderate myself, lately.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 11:29 AM	That's right! Mwahahaha.
Steelwind 05-16-07, 11:30 AM	-If a person is running their own personal campaign, and they divulge from canon, that's their perogative. I think it's safe to assume that most people do, to one degree or another. As Dan mentioned, Salvatore writes canon novels, not private campaign adventures. If you are going to write canon novels, don't you think it would just be...courteous to other authors, designers and everyone else to not "rock the boat" too much with retroactive and proactive retcons? That argument certainly is valid, and I wasnt here say anyone was right or wrong, just to gain some perspective. Mission accomplished, thanks. :tiphat: As a side note, I have found myself becoming more moderate myself. leaning over from the right side that is. ;) And LK or GD, if either of yall ever come to Japan let me know and we'll definately go out for some :pint: Tokyo can be quite the good time.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 12:40 PM	Oddly enough, neither me nor LK drink. ;)
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 02:38 PM	-Damn it, what are you doing!? Spying on me!? :P -I'd like to go out and drink every now and then, but the damn stuff just tastes so vile...Ugh.