Cleric Without A Patron? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric Without A Patron? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Yxunomei
02-14-07, 10:45 PM In FR, divine spells come from divine powers (deities), that much seems clear. Although I'm wondering if a cleric should actually need a specific patron. It seems to me, using the Ice Lich Lossarwyn as my base for this theory (yes I know he's supposedly a druid not a cleric, but it serves my purpose), that a cleric should be able to worship a specific aspect of the universe (nature for Lossarwyn) and either the deity who holds that portfolio, or if the deity who holds that portfolio doesn't have an agreeable alignment with the PC, a deity with a similar portfolio (instead of death, perhaps undeath or murder) but an agreeable alignment could secretly sponsor that cleric. I think this would be great for players who can't find a suitable patron for their character... the only downside to this of course is that the player wouldn't be part of the mainstream Church and thus have no official rank or clergy support (unless he/she formed their own cult or something). What do you guys think?
Myssa Rei
02-14-07, 11:54 PM Lossarwyn isn't exactly a valid example to use, as I have the feeling it's an example where the people involved in one particular part of a project (in this case Champions of Ruin) not having proper communication or background with the rest of the team (people who actually are familiar with the Lore of the Realms). There is no way the Ice Lich is casting his spells 'out of thin air', to borrow an oft-quoted phrase; he's being sponsored, he just doesn't know it, and probably by one of the nature deities with a bone to pick with the Seldarine (a lot of suspects there).

Such is the framework of divine spellcasting established in Realms Lore.
Lord Karsus
02-15-07, 12:15 AM -A cleric can think he/she is getting spells from Torm, when in actuality, Mask is granting him/her their spells. There's a little nugget to ponder.
Yxunomei
02-15-07, 12:49 AM Lossarwyn isn't exactly a valid example to use, as I have the feeling it's an example where the people involved in one particular part of a project (in this case Champions of Ruin) not having proper communication or background with the rest of the team (people who actually are familiar with the Lore of the Realms). There is no way the Ice Lich is casting his spells 'out of thin air', to borrow an oft-quoted phrase; he's being sponsored, he just doesn't know it, and probably by one of the nature deities with a bone to pick with the Seldarine (a lot of suspects there).

Such is the framework of divine spellcasting established in Realms Lore.

I'm not arguing that. I'm not debating that divine spells don't come from divine powers. While deities apparently can't ignore their faithful, they can still grant spells to others if they choose to. One of the main arguments used to justify Lossarwyn's source of power is that he worships Chuantea indirectly since through worshiping nature, he ends up worshiping the Earthmother irregardless of what he believes.

I'm proposing that clerics should be able to receive spells merely by worshiping an aspect of the world. For example, if a wizard/cleric worships necromancy/undeath itself without paying direct homage to Velsharoon, then Velsharoon could still sponsor him without his knowledge anyways. If Velsharoon doesn't approve of the character, then others who might could... say Kelemvor if the PC was of a neutral alignment (portfolio of death and the dead) or perhaps Mystra if the PC is of a good alignment. Or maybe someone like Orcus will just beat Velsharoon to it hmmm?

Advantages are that the players who are indecisive of choosing a deity to worship due to alignment disagreements or disagreements in the specific dogma can still become a cleric. It's basically following the perception that deities should be a reflection of the character. What was it that Montolio said to Drizzt? Something on the lines of "you have a patron god, you just don't have a name for it."
BadCatMan
02-15-07, 01:16 AM There's precedent for this in the various cults laying around the Realms, some of which can get divine spells: the church of Tchazzar (who received spells before, during and after his death and recent resurrection; presemably the spells come from Tiamat), the cult of Entropy (secretly supplied by Tiamat).
Zanan
02-15-07, 07:11 AM Wouldn't be surprised if the lich got corrupted by Moander and the latter gave him the opportunity to channel divine spells "through" venerating Nature. And in the background, Lolth - posing as Moander - these days has her fun corrupting elves to her cause ...
rolig
02-15-07, 08:10 AM Malkazid the branded king is a good example of a cleric without a patron...
Khaelieth
02-15-07, 12:12 PM As mentioned above, in Faerūn, you cannot worship an aspect. I think WotC will give us some info in the future of where Lossarwyn gets his power from.
Lord Karsus
02-15-07, 11:14 PM As mentioned above, in Faerūn, you cannot worship an aspect. I think WotC will give us some info in the future of where Lossarwyn gets his power from.

-We can only hope, anyway. Though, I kind of like the mystery...

-Not enough mysteries, in these 3e days.
BrianCritchley
02-15-07, 11:18 PM you can't worship causes because the fact is causes have no divine power unless they are represented by a god.
Lord Karsus
02-15-07, 11:20 PM you can't worship causes because the fact is causes have no divine power unless they are represented by a god.

-Well, technically, you can worship a cause, but no, you are not going to be given spells for doing so- unless, that is, a particular deity feels like rewarding you with them, for whatever the reason. But, the common denominator is that Divine Spells must be supplied by a Divine Patron.
BrianCritchley
02-15-07, 11:36 PM indeed you can belive you're being supplied spells by anything but only deities and MAYBE feindish lords can supply spells
Zevox
02-16-07, 02:03 AM Malkazid the branded king is a good example of a cleric without a patron...
Malkizid is an Archfiend though - theres lots of precedent for Archfiends granting spells as though they were Gods themselves. I doubt it'd be tough given that for him to be granting himself those spells.

Zevox
rolig
02-16-07, 07:07 AM yeah but still its a good example...
i support that you need a patron for spellcasting.
But malkizid is a good example... still so it's not immpossible, you just gotta have power! And a loooooot of it.
Khaelieth
02-16-07, 08:03 AM -We can only hope, anyway. Though, I kind of like the mystery...

-Not enough mysteries, in these 3e days.

Agreed, it leaves the DM with precious little space to maneuver=(
MessiahOmega
02-16-07, 08:38 AM kinda related; i allow my players to recieve power from whorshiping a pantheon, but the cleric is restricted to pantheon themed domains and such. it also works well for non religious characters, especially Non-human characters, but only because af the wide variety of human gods.
At the moment im trying to work out how to divide the human pantheon, and at the moment im thinking just along alignment axis'. Its a work in progress...........

any thoughts? critisisms?
HVulpes
02-16-07, 09:19 AM My thoughts:

When you choose to play a divine spellcaster, you meet discretly with the DM and make an arrangement with the DM for the 'Patron' of your cleric. If you want to really want to make it harder to find out which god you worship try a Heresy feat from Powers of Faerun, which also must be worked out with the DM.

Then enter play of your game as a cleric that is gaining their powers from no god. The DM can rule that without skill check in Knowledge (religion), the other PC can not know that all divine magic in Faerun comes from a diety (Perhaps DC 10).

Just an idea.
Lord Karsus
02-16-07, 11:59 AM Agreed, it leaves the DM with precious little space to maneuver=(

-It's not just that though. It's fun to speculate about these things. There been...what, three threads about Lossarwyn and his spell-casting abilities in the past two or three weeks? It's fun to throw around theories. It's not fun when long standing mysteries are given answers, such as Aravae's murderer, and that's that. A little bit of mystery goes a long way...
Yxunomei
02-18-07, 02:17 AM -It's not just that though. It's fun to speculate about these things. There been...what, three threads about Lossarwyn and his spell-casting abilities in the past two or three weeks? It's fun to throw around theories. It's not fun when long standing mysteries are given answers, such as Aravae's murderer, and that's that. A little bit of mystery goes a long way...
Well, Lossarwyn wasn't my only inspiration... I was also wondering how some clerics can worship dead deities and still receive spells. I know there's a feat but where the actual spells come from seems to be a mystery. This simply leads me to believe that perhaps simply worshipping an aspect will be sufficient for some deity to sponsor a divine spellcaster.
Francho1
02-19-07, 02:23 PM what about using the ur-priest prestige class. They get their powers from stealing divene energy form the gods, nit having to worship anybody
Yxunomei
02-20-07, 05:43 PM BTW, is there any explanation on how non-deity Demon Princes and Archdevils manage to grant spells to themselves or to their worshipers? Or am I simply to assume that there is an exception for very, very, very powerful individuals?
GothicDan
02-20-07, 07:11 PM what about using the ur-priest prestige class. They get their powers from stealing divene energy form the gods, nit having to worship anybody

The specifics of a core prestige class does not supercede the mechanics of an entire campaign setting.
see
02-20-07, 07:34 PM what about using the ur-priest prestige class. They get their powers from stealing divene energy form the gods, nit having to worship anybody

When asked about this, Ed Greenwood said that members of the ur-priest class in the Realms are dependent on some god quietly slipping them spells for reasons of the god's own.

So, if you're casting divine spells in the Realms, some god is supplying you, and if that god decides to stop supplying the spells, they go away.

The way I'd game it is:

If you have the "Heretic of the Faith" feat, "Servitor of the Fallen" feat, "Thrall of [Foo]" feat, Ur-Priest levels, or something like that, there's some god who has decided he has an ongoing interest in seeing you get spells, and is no more likely to cut you off then they would cut off a devoted priest of theirs.

If you don't have such a mechanical commitment, and you don't have a patron god, you might get spells anyway -- but it's highly likely that the god supplying them will cut them off without warning or explanation.
Gray Richardson
02-20-07, 07:35 PM what about using the ur-priest prestige class. They get their powers from stealing divene energy form the gods, nit having to worship anybodyI think this would be a great PRC to use. It might work especially well for Kir-Lannans.
GothicDan
02-22-07, 08:36 PM Ed has already commented on Ur-Priests in the Realms. The deities know that their divine energy is being stolen.
Kirk99
02-24-07, 04:47 AM :) I think this would be a great PRC to use. It might work especially well for Kir-Lannans.

Thats what I was thinking. This would make a great epic storyline for a campaign where the players are set on trying to rescue their patron deity and stop the Kir-Lannans from sucking them dry!

A character could recieve bad dreams or visions showing their beloved patron dying of some sort of sickness... Things like that. :)
Francho1
02-24-07, 10:43 PM Not nowing the oficial position on ur-priest in the realms, our DM ran a campaing of a cult of monks ur-priests who wanted to take away worshipers from the gods. Stateing that men dont need gods with all there meddling and stuff.While we where running around with priests and paladins trying to destroy this cult.(not a native english speaker)
nameneeded
02-25-07, 01:09 AM This popped up in another thread.

Originally Posted by SRD, Cleric Spells (further down)
Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

I read this as a god is not needed.
MessiahOmega
02-25-07, 01:21 AM This popped up in another thread.

Originally Posted by SRD, Cleric Spells (further down)
Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

I read this as a god is not needed.

in the FR a god is always needed. there are no metaphysical wells of philisophically aligned or natural power. at all. it works like this:

no patron deity= no zap-zap heal-heal.

that and and gods forbid you die............
Gallameed
02-25-07, 01:27 AM in the FR a god is always needed. there are no metaphysical wells of philisophically aligned or natural power. at all. it works like this:

no patron deity= no zap-zap heal-heal.

that and and gods forbid you die............

or

zap-zap heal-heal. (someones giving you power for some reason but you dont know or care who) ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yxunomei 02-14-07, 10:45 PM	In FR, divine spells come from divine powers (deities), that much seems clear. Although I'm wondering if a cleric should actually need a specific patron. It seems to me, using the Ice Lich Lossarwyn as my base for this theory (yes I know he's supposedly a druid not a cleric, but it serves my purpose), that a cleric should be able to worship a specific aspect of the universe (nature for Lossarwyn) and either the deity who holds that portfolio, or if the deity who holds that portfolio doesn't have an agreeable alignment with the PC, a deity with a similar portfolio (instead of death, perhaps undeath or murder) but an agreeable alignment could secretly sponsor that cleric. I think this would be great for players who can't find a suitable patron for their character... the only downside to this of course is that the player wouldn't be part of the mainstream Church and thus have no official rank or clergy support (unless he/she formed their own cult or something). What do you guys think?
Myssa Rei 02-14-07, 11:54 PM	Lossarwyn isn't exactly a valid example to use, as I have the feeling it's an example where the people involved in one particular part of a project (in this case Champions of Ruin) not having proper communication or background with the rest of the team (people who actually are familiar with the Lore of the Realms). There is no way the Ice Lich is casting his spells 'out of thin air', to borrow an oft-quoted phrase; he's being sponsored, he just doesn't know it, and probably by one of the nature deities with a bone to pick with the Seldarine (a lot of suspects there). Such is the framework of divine spellcasting established in Realms Lore.
Lord Karsus 02-15-07, 12:15 AM	-A cleric can think he/she is getting spells from Torm, when in actuality, Mask is granting him/her their spells. There's a little nugget to ponder.
Yxunomei 02-15-07, 12:49 AM	Lossarwyn isn't exactly a valid example to use, as I have the feeling it's an example where the people involved in one particular part of a project (in this case Champions of Ruin) not having proper communication or background with the rest of the team (people who actually are familiar with the Lore of the Realms). There is no way the Ice Lich is casting his spells 'out of thin air', to borrow an oft-quoted phrase; he's being sponsored, he just doesn't know it, and probably by one of the nature deities with a bone to pick with the Seldarine (a lot of suspects there). Such is the framework of divine spellcasting established in Realms Lore. I'm not arguing that. I'm not debating that divine spells don't come from divine powers. While deities apparently can't ignore their faithful, they can still grant spells to others if they choose to. One of the main arguments used to justify Lossarwyn's source of power is that he worships Chuantea indirectly since through worshiping nature, he ends up worshiping the Earthmother irregardless of what he believes. I'm proposing that clerics should be able to receive spells merely by worshiping an aspect of the world. For example, if a wizard/cleric worships necromancy/undeath itself without paying direct homage to Velsharoon, then Velsharoon could still sponsor him without his knowledge anyways. If Velsharoon doesn't approve of the character, then others who might could... say Kelemvor if the PC was of a neutral alignment (portfolio of death and the dead) or perhaps Mystra if the PC is of a good alignment. Or maybe someone like Orcus will just beat Velsharoon to it hmmm? Advantages are that the players who are indecisive of choosing a deity to worship due to alignment disagreements or disagreements in the specific dogma can still become a cleric. It's basically following the perception that deities should be a reflection of the character. What was it that Montolio said to Drizzt? Something on the lines of "you have a patron god, you just don't have a name for it."
BadCatMan 02-15-07, 01:16 AM	There's precedent for this in the various cults laying around the Realms, some of which can get divine spells: the church of Tchazzar (who received spells before, during and after his death and recent resurrection; presemably the spells come from Tiamat), the cult of Entropy (secretly supplied by Tiamat).
Zanan 02-15-07, 07:11 AM	Wouldn't be surprised if the lich got corrupted by Moander and the latter gave him the opportunity to channel divine spells "through" venerating Nature. And in the background, Lolth - posing as Moander - these days has her fun corrupting elves to her cause ...
rolig 02-15-07, 08:10 AM	Malkazid the branded king is a good example of a cleric without a patron...
Khaelieth 02-15-07, 12:12 PM	As mentioned above, in Faerūn, you cannot worship an aspect. I think WotC will give us some info in the future of where Lossarwyn gets his power from.
Lord Karsus 02-15-07, 11:14 PM	As mentioned above, in Faerūn, you cannot worship an aspect. I think WotC will give us some info in the future of where Lossarwyn gets his power from. -We can only hope, anyway. Though, I kind of like the mystery... -Not enough mysteries, in these 3e days.
BrianCritchley 02-15-07, 11:18 PM	you can't worship causes because the fact is causes have no divine power unless they are represented by a god.
Lord Karsus 02-15-07, 11:20 PM	you can't worship causes because the fact is causes have no divine power unless they are represented by a god. -Well, technically, you can worship a cause, but no, you are not going to be given spells for doing so- unless, that is, a particular deity feels like rewarding you with them, for whatever the reason. But, the common denominator is that Divine Spells must be supplied by a Divine Patron.
BrianCritchley 02-15-07, 11:36 PM	indeed you can belive you're being supplied spells by anything but only deities and MAYBE feindish lords can supply spells
Zevox 02-16-07, 02:03 AM	Malkazid the branded king is a good example of a cleric without a patron... Malkizid is an Archfiend though - theres lots of precedent for Archfiends granting spells as though they were Gods themselves. I doubt it'd be tough given that for him to be granting himself those spells. Zevox
rolig 02-16-07, 07:07 AM	yeah but still its a good example... i support that you need a patron for spellcasting. But malkizid is a good example... still so it's not immpossible, you just gotta have power! And a loooooot of it.
Khaelieth 02-16-07, 08:03 AM	-We can only hope, anyway. Though, I kind of like the mystery... -Not enough mysteries, in these 3e days. Agreed, it leaves the DM with precious little space to maneuver=(
MessiahOmega 02-16-07, 08:38 AM	kinda related; i allow my players to recieve power from whorshiping a pantheon, but the cleric is restricted to pantheon themed domains and such. it also works well for non religious characters, especially Non-human characters, but only because af the wide variety of human gods. At the moment im trying to work out how to divide the human pantheon, and at the moment im thinking just along alignment axis'. Its a work in progress........... any thoughts? critisisms?
HVulpes 02-16-07, 09:19 AM	My thoughts: When you choose to play a divine spellcaster, you meet discretly with the DM and make an arrangement with the DM for the 'Patron' of your cleric. If you want to really want to make it harder to find out which god you worship try a Heresy feat from Powers of Faerun, which also must be worked out with the DM. Then enter play of your game as a cleric that is gaining their powers from no god. The DM can rule that without skill check in Knowledge (religion), the other PC can not know that all divine magic in Faerun comes from a diety (Perhaps DC 10). Just an idea.
Lord Karsus 02-16-07, 11:59 AM	Agreed, it leaves the DM with precious little space to maneuver=( -It's not just that though. It's fun to speculate about these things. There been...what, three threads about Lossarwyn and his spell-casting abilities in the past two or three weeks? It's fun to throw around theories. It's not fun when long standing mysteries are given answers, such as Aravae's murderer, and that's that. A little bit of mystery goes a long way...
Yxunomei 02-18-07, 02:17 AM	-It's not just that though. It's fun to speculate about these things. There been...what, three threads about Lossarwyn and his spell-casting abilities in the past two or three weeks? It's fun to throw around theories. It's not fun when long standing mysteries are given answers, such as Aravae's murderer, and that's that. A little bit of mystery goes a long way... Well, Lossarwyn wasn't my only inspiration... I was also wondering how some clerics can worship dead deities and still receive spells. I know there's a feat but where the actual spells come from seems to be a mystery. This simply leads me to believe that perhaps simply worshipping an aspect will be sufficient for some deity to sponsor a divine spellcaster.
Francho1 02-19-07, 02:23 PM	what about using the ur-priest prestige class. They get their powers from stealing divene energy form the gods, nit having to worship anybody
Yxunomei 02-20-07, 05:43 PM	BTW, is there any explanation on how non-deity Demon Princes and Archdevils manage to grant spells to themselves or to their worshipers? Or am I simply to assume that there is an exception for very, very, very powerful individuals?
GothicDan 02-20-07, 07:11 PM	what about using the ur-priest prestige class. They get their powers from stealing divene energy form the gods, nit having to worship anybody The specifics of a core prestige class does not supercede the mechanics of an entire campaign setting.
see 02-20-07, 07:34 PM	what about using the ur-priest prestige class. They get their powers from stealing divene energy form the gods, nit having to worship anybody When asked about this, Ed Greenwood said that members of the ur-priest class in the Realms are dependent on some god quietly slipping them spells for reasons of the god's own. So, if you're casting divine spells in the Realms, some god is supplying you, and if that god decides to stop supplying the spells, they go away. The way I'd game it is: If you have the "Heretic of the Faith" feat, "Servitor of the Fallen" feat, "Thrall of [Foo]" feat, Ur-Priest levels, or something like that, there's some god who has decided he has an ongoing interest in seeing you get spells, and is no more likely to cut you off then they would cut off a devoted priest of theirs. If you don't have such a mechanical commitment, and you don't have a patron god, you might get spells anyway -- but it's highly likely that the god supplying them will cut them off without warning or explanation.
Gray Richardson 02-20-07, 07:35 PM	what about using the ur-priest prestige class. They get their powers from stealing divene energy form the gods, nit having to worship anybodyI think this would be a great PRC to use. It might work especially well for Kir-Lannans.
GothicDan 02-22-07, 08:36 PM	Ed has already commented on Ur-Priests in the Realms. The deities know that their divine energy is being stolen.
Kirk99 02-24-07, 04:47 AM	:) I think this would be a great PRC to use. It might work especially well for Kir-Lannans. Thats what I was thinking. This would make a great epic storyline for a campaign where the players are set on trying to rescue their patron deity and stop the Kir-Lannans from sucking them dry! A character could recieve bad dreams or visions showing their beloved patron dying of some sort of sickness... Things like that. :)
Francho1 02-24-07, 10:43 PM	Not nowing the oficial position on ur-priest in the realms, our DM ran a campaing of a cult of monks ur-priests who wanted to take away worshipers from the gods. Stateing that men dont need gods with all there meddling and stuff.While we where running around with priests and paladins trying to destroy this cult.(not a native english speaker)
nameneeded 02-25-07, 01:09 AM	This popped up in another thread. Originally Posted by SRD, Cleric Spells (further down) Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions. I read this as a god is not needed.
MessiahOmega 02-25-07, 01:21 AM	This popped up in another thread. Originally Posted by SRD, Cleric Spells (further down) Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions. I read this as a god is not needed. in the FR a god is always needed. there are no metaphysical wells of philisophically aligned or natural power. at all. it works like this: no patron deity= no zap-zap heal-heal. that and and gods forbid you die............
Gallameed 02-25-07, 01:27 AM	in the FR a god is always needed. there are no metaphysical wells of philisophically aligned or natural power. at all. it works like this: no patron deity= no zap-zap heal-heal. that and and gods forbid you die............ or zap-zap heal-heal. (someones giving you power for some reason but you dont know or care who) ;)