Constructive Criticism [Archive] - Wizards Community

Constructive Criticism [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dragonheart
09-29-07, 11:20 AM Are we all done moaning and groaning now?:D
It seems obvious to me that 4e and changes are coming whether we like it or not. Equally thre was a post last week (somewhere here) quaoting Richard baker as saying that they have heard the outrage adn are starting to look and see what MIGHT be changed and how in the year between now and the first 4e Realms books.

Here are the things I don't see as changing:
Mystra, the weave and the shadow weave are gone
the number of gods are reduced - possibly greatly reduced

Here are somethings I think might could be changed:
the entire siamorphe-helm-tyr-sune-tymora nonsense.
bluntly its not jsut that they are all not acting in character but that they are effectively acting opposite character. I don't care how powerful Cyric is in his control over illusion and deciet being able topush them that far out of character is simply going to far and its going to have to be rewritten or retconed. This is in many ways (i think) our biggest pet peeve in all the changes. ( other than the fact that they have been telling us in no uncertain terms forthe last 2 years that there was not going to be a 4e anytime soon while they were actually working on putting this together. That LIE really sticks in my throat.

Anyway

Here are the changes going into my campaign to prepare it for possible 4e. They can be taken as a suggestion for possible ways to rewrite teh mess to make it work better. It is based in part on the fact that I have a PC in high epic levels that was going to be slowly turned into a deity anyway (taking over portions of Shandukul's & Geb's portfolios).
1. Cyric Attempts to sow confusion nad destruction with his nonsense wiht siamorphe etc. the triade recognizes it as a plot agasint them early on but plays it out to get evidence needed to convict Cyric of going too far in his actions. At the last minute they stop and turn on Cyric with the goods. he flees and SHar aides him in hidding from the triade but demands that he help her assassinate Mystra. Having no choice he joins with her in the attempt. The triade meanwhile has tracked cycric to shar and notifies Mystra of their alliance. She turns to Selune and Lathandar for aide in exposing and foiling their plot against her. When cyric and shar strike Mystra, Selune and Lathander are ready and a true deathmatch occurs. Numerous other gods and neargods (my PC) join into the battle along the way in an effort to gain something or settle old scores. When the dust settles Mystra, the weave and the shadow weave are no more, the spellplague being the result of her efforts to burn out the shadowweave and replace the weave with a new form of magic. Cyric is dead ( I know many of you like him but I have no need of him in my campaign) with his portfolios divided amoungst other deities. Shar is reduced to intermediate status with a loss of portfolios, Selune is strengthened, Lathander has changed into Aumontor, Finder has risen to Intermediate status, MAgic is now ruled over by Thoth of the Mulhorandi pantheon with Isis and set ruling over good and evil magic respectively. I'm still working out which other deities survive, how they are transformed and who has left but here are some of the results as I have them qworked out so far:
Dragonheart (the PC elveated to deity - taking over many portfolios from Shandukul and Geb): Intermediate/DR11, Portfolios: Travel, Exploration, Caverns & Dungeons, Mines and miners, The half-blooded, Warrior-mages, Portals, Illusions.

Finder: Intermediate/DR11, Portfolios: Creativity, Dawn, Renewal, Cycle of Life, Transformation of Arts, Saurials.

Aumontor (sp).: Greater/DR17, Portfolios: Sun, Light, Vitality, Perfection of Being, Atheletics, Prophecy/Revealation/ Uncovering of secrets.

Selune: Greater/DR16, Portfolios: Might, Moon, Stars, Wanderers, Navigation, Good and neutral Lycanthropes.

Shar: Intermediate/DR13, Portfolios: Darkness, Loss, Forgetfulness, Lies, Secrets.

Mask: Shadows, Theives & Theivery, Intrigue, Deception.

Malar: Lesser/DR10, Portfolios: Bloodlust, Murder, Marauders, stalking, Evil Lycanthropes.

Eilistraee: Intermediate/DR11, Portfolios: Nonevil Drow, Swordwork, Shadowdancers, Dance, Song, beauty.

Lolth: Greater/DR17, Portfolios: Drow, Spiders, Evil, Underdark, Chaos, Assassins.

The triade is staying as is as are most of the nature deities. Obviously if WotC wants to eliminate more deities the easy way is to have them killed off in the fight and have the Mulhorandi deities of similar porfolios spread their influence outward to the rest of Faerun.

Ok now its your turn - comments or other suggestions on how to make the mess work better and keep the flavor of the realms intact?
MerrikCale
09-29-07, 01:42 PM Are we all done moaning and groaning now?

not by a long shot

Not a big Finder fan myself. Frankly I hope they drop him to demi-god status or oblivion.

I don't care if Helm is gone, but the whole explanation of it seemed forced and out of "character" for Tyr. Perhaps if down the road they explained it better, I'll be OK with it.
Arbourean
09-29-07, 02:00 PM I could see Cyric fomenting discord among the Triad leading to their dissolution, which would be a better explanation than that jilted lover nonsense.
Tyr would certainly not just attack Helm over such a trivial matter, and instead would strive to seek out the truth of the matter. He'd treat it just like a trial.
ywhtptgtfo
09-29-07, 02:31 PM Lathander and Shar are each trying to gain dominance over the pantheon through their respective plans (Dawn Cataclysm #2 and Shadowstorm) which pits them directly against each other. Shar strikes first by recruiting Cyric who then attacks the House of Triads and murders Siamorphe. The deities of good retaliated by destroying Cyric whose essence are absorbed by Shar. With her elevated powers, Shar merges large swaths of Faerun with the Planes of Shadow which somehow kills Sarvas. Finally, Mystra steps in and finds an opportunity to merge the Weave with the Shadow Weave thus greatly weakening Shar (back to DR 18) but destroying much of the world in the process. The links between the two worlds are then severed and the system of magic is forever changed. Mystra then reveals she is Karsus the Mad the whole time.

There, a 10 minute piece of work.
Suin Bahhar
09-29-07, 03:15 PM These are Fearunian gods were talking about. They are as fickle as the greek pantheon who has had its shakeups too. I only hope the story is done well or with some real headspinning trickeries of Cyric and Shar. I want some really eyecatching scenes drawn by Brom to make me visualize the events of Cyrics shenanigens. I love Brom.
Lord Zeb
09-30-07, 09:51 AM What about Ao? Seems like he'd be OK with Cyric pursuing his "duty" as god of murder, but not having a God of Magic around seems antithetical to his "jobs needing filling" - so maybe he anchors the -new- Weave on Thoth or someone else (Selune?) soon after the death of Mystra?

I'm not a big Shar fan, but something like this could explain the 100 years of darkness...

Shar helps Cyric kill Mystra, just as the Weave distorts she uses the last of the Shadow Weave to strike a blow against Ao himself, and ascends as Overgod of the Torillian Sphere. Her old portfolios are seeded throughout the pantheon, and she cackles as she resorts the planes to her liking.

Cyric - picks up Secrets, Loss, Forgetfulness
Mask - picks up Darkness, Caverns, Night, Dungeons, Underdark
Thoth - Steps up and anchors the Weave before all magic leaves Toril

I don't think that is where they are going, but from a big picture standpoint it would serve to explain the radical new direction...
dragonheart
09-30-07, 12:00 PM It would more or less. Of course the result would be a realms I would have no inerest in playing in. If I wanted to play in adark world I would center things in Ravenloft. One ofthe things I have appreciated about the realms is that they were always able to keep it balanced on the razor's edge - ready to be tumbled to the light or the dark side by the PCs. Even with all their RSEs they managed to do that. the one thing I am hopeful about with 4e is that they will manage to keep that going. My personal campaign has been shifted towards the light somewhat but is still fairly balanced with evil always on the lurk and ready to make a big move if you aren't vigilant and active in opposing it. What I would like to see here are other suggestions on how WotC could meet these basic requirements in the 4e realms given what they seem to be doing.
WotC aims (from my point of view so far)
1. bring in the new 4e magic system with an in-game rational.
2. reduce the number of deites to a more (for someone) manageble number.
3. bring all the different campaign worlds into a closer alignment so generic and campaign specific products transfer between them better (hence are more likely to sell better)

I am further assuming that the death of Mystra and the elimination of the weave are set in stone but that the how is not. I am also assuming that the triad love story is potentially retconable since it is a gross abuse of their portfolios, personalities and ways of behaving.

Given the above how would you "fix the realms" for 4e?
I've given one possibility that I will use in my campaign, I'll add to it when I
finish going throu the deities and winnowing as I see fit.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dragonheart 09-29-07, 11:20 AM	Are we all done moaning and groaning now?:D It seems obvious to me that 4e and changes are coming whether we like it or not. Equally thre was a post last week (somewhere here) quaoting Richard baker as saying that they have heard the outrage adn are starting to look and see what MIGHT be changed and how in the year between now and the first 4e Realms books. Here are the things I don't see as changing: Mystra, the weave and the shadow weave are gone the number of gods are reduced - possibly greatly reduced Here are somethings I think might could be changed: the entire siamorphe-helm-tyr-sune-tymora nonsense. bluntly its not jsut that they are all not acting in character but that they are effectively acting opposite character. I don't care how powerful Cyric is in his control over illusion and deciet being able topush them that far out of character is simply going to far and its going to have to be rewritten or retconed. This is in many ways (i think) our biggest pet peeve in all the changes. ( other than the fact that they have been telling us in no uncertain terms forthe last 2 years that there was not going to be a 4e anytime soon while they were actually working on putting this together. That LIE really sticks in my throat. Anyway Here are the changes going into my campaign to prepare it for possible 4e. They can be taken as a suggestion for possible ways to rewrite teh mess to make it work better. It is based in part on the fact that I have a PC in high epic levels that was going to be slowly turned into a deity anyway (taking over portions of Shandukul's & Geb's portfolios). 1. Cyric Attempts to sow confusion nad destruction with his nonsense wiht siamorphe etc. the triade recognizes it as a plot agasint them early on but plays it out to get evidence needed to convict Cyric of going too far in his actions. At the last minute they stop and turn on Cyric with the goods. he flees and SHar aides him in hidding from the triade but demands that he help her assassinate Mystra. Having no choice he joins with her in the attempt. The triade meanwhile has tracked cycric to shar and notifies Mystra of their alliance. She turns to Selune and Lathandar for aide in exposing and foiling their plot against her. When cyric and shar strike Mystra, Selune and Lathander are ready and a true deathmatch occurs. Numerous other gods and neargods (my PC) join into the battle along the way in an effort to gain something or settle old scores. When the dust settles Mystra, the weave and the shadow weave are no more, the spellplague being the result of her efforts to burn out the shadowweave and replace the weave with a new form of magic. Cyric is dead ( I know many of you like him but I have no need of him in my campaign) with his portfolios divided amoungst other deities. Shar is reduced to intermediate status with a loss of portfolios, Selune is strengthened, Lathander has changed into Aumontor, Finder has risen to Intermediate status, MAgic is now ruled over by Thoth of the Mulhorandi pantheon with Isis and set ruling over good and evil magic respectively. I'm still working out which other deities survive, how they are transformed and who has left but here are some of the results as I have them qworked out so far: Dragonheart (the PC elveated to deity - taking over many portfolios from Shandukul and Geb): Intermediate/DR11, Portfolios: Travel, Exploration, Caverns & Dungeons, Mines and miners, The half-blooded, Warrior-mages, Portals, Illusions. Finder: Intermediate/DR11, Portfolios: Creativity, Dawn, Renewal, Cycle of Life, Transformation of Arts, Saurials. Aumontor (sp).: Greater/DR17, Portfolios: Sun, Light, Vitality, Perfection of Being, Atheletics, Prophecy/Revealation/ Uncovering of secrets. Selune: Greater/DR16, Portfolios: Might, Moon, Stars, Wanderers, Navigation, Good and neutral Lycanthropes. Shar: Intermediate/DR13, Portfolios: Darkness, Loss, Forgetfulness, Lies, Secrets. Mask: Shadows, Theives & Theivery, Intrigue, Deception. Malar: Lesser/DR10, Portfolios: Bloodlust, Murder, Marauders, stalking, Evil Lycanthropes. Eilistraee: Intermediate/DR11, Portfolios: Nonevil Drow, Swordwork, Shadowdancers, Dance, Song, beauty. Lolth: Greater/DR17, Portfolios: Drow, Spiders, Evil, Underdark, Chaos, Assassins. The triade is staying as is as are most of the nature deities. Obviously if WotC wants to eliminate more deities the easy way is to have them killed off in the fight and have the Mulhorandi deities of similar porfolios spread their influence outward to the rest of Faerun. Ok now its your turn - comments or other suggestions on how to make the mess work better and keep the flavor of the realms intact?
MerrikCale 09-29-07, 01:42 PM	Are we all done moaning and groaning now? not by a long shot Not a big Finder fan myself. Frankly I hope they drop him to demi-god status or oblivion. I don't care if Helm is gone, but the whole explanation of it seemed forced and out of "character" for Tyr. Perhaps if down the road they explained it better, I'll be OK with it.
Arbourean 09-29-07, 02:00 PM	I could see Cyric fomenting discord among the Triad leading to their dissolution, which would be a better explanation than that jilted lover nonsense. Tyr would certainly not just attack Helm over such a trivial matter, and instead would strive to seek out the truth of the matter. He'd treat it just like a trial.
ywhtptgtfo 09-29-07, 02:31 PM	Lathander and Shar are each trying to gain dominance over the pantheon through their respective plans (Dawn Cataclysm #2 and Shadowstorm) which pits them directly against each other. Shar strikes first by recruiting Cyric who then attacks the House of Triads and murders Siamorphe. The deities of good retaliated by destroying Cyric whose essence are absorbed by Shar. With her elevated powers, Shar merges large swaths of Faerun with the Planes of Shadow which somehow kills Sarvas. Finally, Mystra steps in and finds an opportunity to merge the Weave with the Shadow Weave thus greatly weakening Shar (back to DR 18) but destroying much of the world in the process. The links between the two worlds are then severed and the system of magic is forever changed. Mystra then reveals she is Karsus the Mad the whole time. There, a 10 minute piece of work.
Suin Bahhar 09-29-07, 03:15 PM	These are Fearunian gods were talking about. They are as fickle as the greek pantheon who has had its shakeups too. I only hope the story is done well or with some real headspinning trickeries of Cyric and Shar. I want some really eyecatching scenes drawn by Brom to make me visualize the events of Cyrics shenanigens. I love Brom.
Lord Zeb 09-30-07, 09:51 AM	What about Ao? Seems like he'd be OK with Cyric pursuing his "duty" as god of murder, but not having a God of Magic around seems antithetical to his "jobs needing filling" - so maybe he anchors the -new- Weave on Thoth or someone else (Selune?) soon after the death of Mystra? I'm not a big Shar fan, but something like this could explain the 100 years of darkness... Shar helps Cyric kill Mystra, just as the Weave distorts she uses the last of the Shadow Weave to strike a blow against Ao himself, and ascends as Overgod of the Torillian Sphere. Her old portfolios are seeded throughout the pantheon, and she cackles as she resorts the planes to her liking. Cyric - picks up Secrets, Loss, Forgetfulness Mask - picks up Darkness, Caverns, Night, Dungeons, Underdark Thoth - Steps up and anchors the Weave before all magic leaves Toril I don't think that is where they are going, but from a big picture standpoint it would serve to explain the radical new direction...
dragonheart 09-30-07, 12:00 PM	It would more or less. Of course the result would be a realms I would have no inerest in playing in. If I wanted to play in adark world I would center things in Ravenloft. One ofthe things I have appreciated about the realms is that they were always able to keep it balanced on the razor's edge - ready to be tumbled to the light or the dark side by the PCs. Even with all their RSEs they managed to do that. the one thing I am hopeful about with 4e is that they will manage to keep that going. My personal campaign has been shifted towards the light somewhat but is still fairly balanced with evil always on the lurk and ready to make a big move if you aren't vigilant and active in opposing it. What I would like to see here are other suggestions on how WotC could meet these basic requirements in the 4e realms given what they seem to be doing. WotC aims (from my point of view so far) 1. bring in the new 4e magic system with an in-game rational. 2. reduce the number of deites to a more (for someone) manageble number. 3. bring all the different campaign worlds into a closer alignment so generic and campaign specific products transfer between them better (hence are more likely to sell better) I am further assuming that the death of Mystra and the elimination of the weave are set in stone but that the how is not. I am also assuming that the triad love story is potentially retconable since it is a gross abuse of their portfolios, personalities and ways of behaving. Given the above how would you "fix the realms" for 4e? I've given one possibility that I will use in my campaign, I'll add to it when I finish going throu the deities and winnowing as I see fit.