Converting a Heretic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Converting a Heretic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Chosen of Bane
05-12-07, 07:16 PM I was wondering what some options would be to convert a heretic. In my game one of the PC's is a cleric of Kelemvor and is going to meet up with followers of Kelemvor using the Heretic of the Faith feat and bastardizing the religion. The PC knows this already and his plan is to convert them back to the true path.

How should I work this? It seems like it should be something to do with Diplomacy but I'm not sure a simple skill check is the way to go.

Any thoughts?
Zandilar
05-12-07, 07:49 PM Heya,

This is really something that should be handled with Role Playing. It definitely won't be easy for the character in question, especially if these heretics are set on their path. Conversion is not something that happens overnight, either. The PC is on a long path, and could very well be unsuccessful.

A good thing to think about before hand is how "set" the heretics are. Moderates will be easier to convert than frothing at the mouth fanatics.

Diplomacy checks can be made, and if you're interested in a more mechanical solution, probably a sequence of them. (What follows is my guide to the mechanics, take it with a grain of salt or adapt it as you see fit - personally I'd handle it more role playing-ly :)).

"Listen to me": This initial check simply determines if the heretic is interested in listening. I'd set the DCs on the basis of how set the heretic is, for example: a Frothing at the Mouth Fanatic will have DC 30, Almost Fanatical DC 25, Moderate DC 20. If this check fails the PC won't get anywhere - and will probably need to try again, but no sooner than 24 hours after the initial check. Three successive failures at this "listen to me" check means that the heretic cannot be converted (and that goes for heretics who get back here through failure in successive stages).

First successful check: If "Listen to me" check succeeds, the following day the PC can make another check at the same DC, if this check fails, the PC may try again 24 hours later with the initial "listen to me" check.

Subsequent Checks: If everything has been successful to this point, the PC may make another check the next day, the DC will be easier by 5. Subsequent successful checks makes the DC reduce by 5. Failures make the DC go up by 5. If the DC goes back to the initial value, the PC needs to make the initial "listen to me check" again. If the DC makes it to 0, congratulations, the PC has just converted a heretic.

You can give bonuses or penalties on the basis of how well the PC role plays this out.
Chosen of Bane
05-12-07, 08:02 PM Hey man,
Thanks for the help/advice. The situation right now is that a follower of Kelemvor is being manipulated/corrupted by a Devil (Harvestor Devil to be exact). The Devil is using his considerable social skills (+16 Bluff, +20 Diplomacy) to turn the Kelemvorite to a darker path. The devil is simply doing it becasuse he enjoys manipulating mortals, and seeing them turn to a darker path.

He has, over time, convinced the servant of Kelemvor to judge people as his patron does. So, if he discovers any man is faithless, he executes them and hangs them on a wall around his keep. If he deems a person false, he tortures them as a warning and gives them a second chance. He does this all in the name of Kelemvor, despite it not being true to Kelemvor's dogma (hence Heretic of the Faith).

So, I'm wondering if the Devil's social skills should play a roll in this encounter as well? I'm guessing the PC's will eliminate the Devil sooner or later so I may make it a higer diplomacy DC when the devil lives, and lower it if the devil is not there whispering in the Kelemvorites ear.

And by the way Zandilar, I really like your game mechanical breakdown of how to handle the situation.
Zandilar
05-12-07, 08:36 PM Heya,

So, I'm wondering if the Devil's social skills should play a roll in this encounter as well? I'm guessing the PC's will eliminate the Devil sooner or later so I may make it a higer diplomacy DC when the devil lives, and lower it if the devil is not there whispering in the Kelemvorites ear.

The devil will definitely effect the outcome. While the devil is still alive, the chances are the PC is not going to be successful. You can add in the devil making diplomacy rolls, essentially opposing the PCs checks. Whenever the devil is successful, the PC fails (even if his roll would have made the DC for the heretic). If the devil succeeds and the PC would have failed anyway, you could even have the DCs for conversion of the heretic going up by 5 or 10 (depending on how badly the PC failed, and how well the devil succeeded). In essence, it's going to be a tug-o-war.

The best chance the PC has is to track down the devil and eliminate it from the equation... Trouble is, the devil might make the PC a target for conversion!

And by the way Zandilar, I really like your game mechanical breakdown of how to handle the situation.

Thanks. :embarrass
Lady_Mhaor
05-13-07, 01:54 PM Or you can do it the ol' fashion way

smite them until they agree with you
VulcanStormwrath
05-14-07, 04:27 PM Kil him, since he has turned from Kelemvor he will join the wall of the faithless.

Then ask permission of Kelemvor to ressurrect him. I don't think it'll take much convincing after that.
Lady_Mhaor
05-14-07, 06:15 PM Kil him, since he has turned from Kelemvor he will join the wall of the faithless.

Then ask permission of Kelemvor to ressurrect him. I don't think it'll take much convincing after that.

I agree with this method except the ressurrection part

if hes dead he cant argue ergo your right
VulcanStormwrath
05-14-07, 10:02 PM Forgive my moment of weakness milady.
Zandilar
05-15-07, 01:14 AM Heya,

Oh.. the other thing to remember about heresies...

They exist because for some reason or other the deity allows them to.

I think if there really is a devil behind the heresy, then the chances are - the heretics aren't gaining spells, which would be a clue that they were on the wrong track (unless another deity is posing as Kelemvor - and you might need the veil feat thingy that I can't remember the name of, that lets you serve one deity while thinking you're serving another, or the devil concerned is somehow granting spells).
Perun
05-17-07, 04:21 AM Heya,

Oh.. the other thing to remember about heresies...

They exist because for some reason or other the deity allows them to.

I think if there really is a devil behind the heresy, then the chances are - the heretics aren't gaining spells, which would be a clue that they were on the wrong track (unless another deity is posing as Kelemvor - and you might need the veil feat thingy that I can't remember the name of, that lets you serve one deity while thinking you're serving another, or the devil concerned is somehow granting spells).

Exactly. There's still a higher power grantig the character spells and powers, it's not like the feat replaces the deity.

I'd suggest the following: the heretic has in fact lost the blessings of Kelemvor, and the devil is actually a Fiend of Blasphemy (an Evil outsider PrC from Fiend Folio). The 3rd-level Fiend of Blasphemy ability, Sponsor Worshipper, grants the fiend the ability to "grant" spells to it's bonded cultists (channeling the divine energy from it's fiendsish master, as the PrC description says, but you can ignore this bit if you don't want the devil to answer to any specific higher authority), making it an ideal choice for the role you intend for it to play.

Alternatively, the devil might have been just "gently" pushing the cleric, making him stretch his beliefs (by taking the Heretic of the Faith feat) and go after chaotic opponents and generally dangerous individuals. The cleric is just about ready to go over the edge, however, slipping from the faith alltogether. The PC finds him just as this happens.

In both cases, the best course of action (IMO, naturally) is to have the PC discover the devil, and face the Kelemvorite with inrefutable evidence of diabolical influence. This could probably be followed by some role-playing and/or Diplomacy checks (depending on your style of play), because it might be hard for a devoted follower to accept that the dogma he followed was a fake one from the very beginning.

Then again, you're the DM. You should use whatever plot hook works best for you, regardless of how well (if at all) it fits within the rules, as long as everyone has fun at the table.

Regards.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chosen of Bane 05-12-07, 07:16 PM	I was wondering what some options would be to convert a heretic. In my game one of the PC's is a cleric of Kelemvor and is going to meet up with followers of Kelemvor using the Heretic of the Faith feat and bastardizing the religion. The PC knows this already and his plan is to convert them back to the true path. How should I work this? It seems like it should be something to do with Diplomacy but I'm not sure a simple skill check is the way to go. Any thoughts?
Zandilar 05-12-07, 07:49 PM	Heya, This is really something that should be handled with Role Playing. It definitely won't be easy for the character in question, especially if these heretics are set on their path. Conversion is not something that happens overnight, either. The PC is on a long path, and could very well be unsuccessful. A good thing to think about before hand is how "set" the heretics are. Moderates will be easier to convert than frothing at the mouth fanatics. Diplomacy checks can be made, and if you're interested in a more mechanical solution, probably a sequence of them. (What follows is my guide to the mechanics, take it with a grain of salt or adapt it as you see fit - personally I'd handle it more role playing-ly :)). "Listen to me": This initial check simply determines if the heretic is interested in listening. I'd set the DCs on the basis of how set the heretic is, for example: a Frothing at the Mouth Fanatic will have DC 30, Almost Fanatical DC 25, Moderate DC 20. If this check fails the PC won't get anywhere - and will probably need to try again, but no sooner than 24 hours after the initial check. Three successive failures at this "listen to me" check means that the heretic cannot be converted (and that goes for heretics who get back here through failure in successive stages). First successful check: If "Listen to me" check succeeds, the following day the PC can make another check at the same DC, if this check fails, the PC may try again 24 hours later with the initial "listen to me" check. Subsequent Checks: If everything has been successful to this point, the PC may make another check the next day, the DC will be easier by 5. Subsequent successful checks makes the DC reduce by 5. Failures make the DC go up by 5. If the DC goes back to the initial value, the PC needs to make the initial "listen to me check" again. If the DC makes it to 0, congratulations, the PC has just converted a heretic. You can give bonuses or penalties on the basis of how well the PC role plays this out.
Chosen of Bane 05-12-07, 08:02 PM	Hey man, Thanks for the help/advice. The situation right now is that a follower of Kelemvor is being manipulated/corrupted by a Devil (Harvestor Devil to be exact). The Devil is using his considerable social skills (+16 Bluff, +20 Diplomacy) to turn the Kelemvorite to a darker path. The devil is simply doing it becasuse he enjoys manipulating mortals, and seeing them turn to a darker path. He has, over time, convinced the servant of Kelemvor to judge people as his patron does. So, if he discovers any man is faithless, he executes them and hangs them on a wall around his keep. If he deems a person false, he tortures them as a warning and gives them a second chance. He does this all in the name of Kelemvor, despite it not being true to Kelemvor's dogma (hence Heretic of the Faith). So, I'm wondering if the Devil's social skills should play a roll in this encounter as well? I'm guessing the PC's will eliminate the Devil sooner or later so I may make it a higer diplomacy DC when the devil lives, and lower it if the devil is not there whispering in the Kelemvorites ear. And by the way Zandilar, I really like your game mechanical breakdown of how to handle the situation.
Zandilar 05-12-07, 08:36 PM	Heya, So, I'm wondering if the Devil's social skills should play a roll in this encounter as well? I'm guessing the PC's will eliminate the Devil sooner or later so I may make it a higer diplomacy DC when the devil lives, and lower it if the devil is not there whispering in the Kelemvorites ear. The devil will definitely effect the outcome. While the devil is still alive, the chances are the PC is not going to be successful. You can add in the devil making diplomacy rolls, essentially opposing the PCs checks. Whenever the devil is successful, the PC fails (even if his roll would have made the DC for the heretic). If the devil succeeds and the PC would have failed anyway, you could even have the DCs for conversion of the heretic going up by 5 or 10 (depending on how badly the PC failed, and how well the devil succeeded). In essence, it's going to be a tug-o-war. The best chance the PC has is to track down the devil and eliminate it from the equation... Trouble is, the devil might make the PC a target for conversion! And by the way Zandilar, I really like your game mechanical breakdown of how to handle the situation. Thanks. :embarrass
Lady_Mhaor 05-13-07, 01:54 PM	Or you can do it the ol' fashion way smite them until they agree with you
VulcanStormwrath 05-14-07, 04:27 PM	Kil him, since he has turned from Kelemvor he will join the wall of the faithless. Then ask permission of Kelemvor to ressurrect him. I don't think it'll take much convincing after that.
Lady_Mhaor 05-14-07, 06:15 PM	Kil him, since he has turned from Kelemvor he will join the wall of the faithless. Then ask permission of Kelemvor to ressurrect him. I don't think it'll take much convincing after that. I agree with this method except the ressurrection part if hes dead he cant argue ergo your right
VulcanStormwrath 05-14-07, 10:02 PM	Forgive my moment of weakness milady.
Zandilar 05-15-07, 01:14 AM	Heya, Oh.. the other thing to remember about heresies... They exist because for some reason or other the deity allows them to. I think if there really is a devil behind the heresy, then the chances are - the heretics aren't gaining spells, which would be a clue that they were on the wrong track (unless another deity is posing as Kelemvor - and you might need the veil feat thingy that I can't remember the name of, that lets you serve one deity while thinking you're serving another, or the devil concerned is somehow granting spells).
Perun 05-17-07, 04:21 AM	Heya, Oh.. the other thing to remember about heresies... They exist because for some reason or other the deity allows them to. I think if there really is a devil behind the heresy, then the chances are - the heretics aren't gaining spells, which would be a clue that they were on the wrong track (unless another deity is posing as Kelemvor - and you might need the veil feat thingy that I can't remember the name of, that lets you serve one deity while thinking you're serving another, or the devil concerned is somehow granting spells). Exactly. There's still a higher power grantig the character spells and powers, it's not like the feat replaces the deity. I'd suggest the following: the heretic has in fact lost the blessings of Kelemvor, and the devil is actually a Fiend of Blasphemy (an Evil outsider PrC from Fiend Folio). The 3rd-level Fiend of Blasphemy ability, Sponsor Worshipper, grants the fiend the ability to "grant" spells to it's bonded cultists (channeling the divine energy from it's fiendsish master, as the PrC description says, but you can ignore this bit if you don't want the devil to answer to any specific higher authority), making it an ideal choice for the role you intend for it to play. Alternatively, the devil might have been just "gently" pushing the cleric, making him stretch his beliefs (by taking the Heretic of the Faith feat) and go after chaotic opponents and generally dangerous individuals. The cleric is just about ready to go over the edge, however, slipping from the faith alltogether. The PC finds him just as this happens. In both cases, the best course of action (IMO, naturally) is to have the PC discover the devil, and face the Kelemvorite with inrefutable evidence of diabolical influence. This could probably be followed by some role-playing and/or Diplomacy checks (depending on your style of play), because it might be hard for a devoted follower to accept that the dogma he followed was a fake one from the very beginning. Then again, you're the DM. You should use whatever plot hook works best for you, regardless of how well (if at all) it fits within the rules, as long as everyone has fun at the table. Regards.