| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| MarkusTay6302-05-07, 02:27 PM | I'm a member of several different forums, and I get the generally idea that not many people like "The Tree". I just did a search online and found THIS (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=87312) old thread, but it doesn't seem to have gotten far. Since that old thread, many of the old 'Wheel' locales have been mentioned in canon, along with beings that dwell on planes that no longer exist. Add to that the whole 'Lolth went and made her OWN plane' thing and we have quite a conundrum. Supposedly certain places no longer exist in FR, but then why mention them and their creatures? What about previous canon that used places that no longer exist? What are we to do? :eek: I tried to broach this subject on a certain 'other' site, and nearly gave them heart failure. Obviously a taboo subject, to some. My personal take was that the wheel is the over-cosmology, and the various 'world cosmologies' are simply the way each individual worlds scholars have worked it out. None of them are right and none of them are wrong; even the great wheel itself is just a matter of perception. Mortals simply cannot fully conceptualize 11 dimensional space (RW Physics, BTW), so they make these pretty drawings and 'pretend' that they know how it works. :D I wanted to make a poll, but this site doesn't seem to allow those... pity. :( So this is my unofficial official poll - Which do you use? The Tree 7 The Wheel 14 Other/mix 4 or you can vote for one of the others from the manual of the planes, or even your own if you like. I will be periodically updating this post to simulate a poll, I have voted for the wheel myself. Discussion is acceptable, but please vote. |
| Stigger02-05-07, 03:04 PM | The Great Wheel appeals to me the most, personally at least. Tree seems a bit too much like Yggdrasil to me at times to take it all that seriously. |
| ripvanwormer02-05-07, 04:33 PM | I take Yggdrasil very seriously, but I agree with Markus. As for the Lolth thing - sure. Maybe she did rip the Demonweb out of the Abyss and make it a plane of its own midway between the Abyss and Carceri. Sounds like an interesting idea, even in the Great Wheel cosmology. The only wrinkle is that with the Demonweb gone, does that mean Ulgurshek can escape? |
| see02-05-07, 04:52 PM | For FR, I vastly prefer the Tree cosmology. Count me as a Tree vote. (I would restore all the elemental para- and quasi- planes, but they aren't even in the Wheel anymore, so that doesn't get involved.) (I'd play Planescape in a Wheel with none of the FR-or-Krynn-only gods. The core rules Greyhawk-based deities would be around, however.) |
| Karsus the Mad02-05-07, 04:53 PM | I don't really use a set cosmology per say. When I play FR, I stay mostly in FR. When I need players to go planar, they go to whatever plane they need to. I use parts of the tree, parts of the wheel, parts I make up as we go, and parts I find in the trash:P I prefer my various planes of existence to be vague and barely comprehensible to mortals, not something mapped out with set borders. I don't think mortals should have a concrete mapping and understanding of the planes when they can't even map their own planet. |
| Zevox02-05-07, 05:46 PM | *shrugs* Neither, really. Its never actually come up. The planes just don't see a lot of use in my games, and those few that do are common to both cosmologies (the Nine Hells and the Abyss mostly). So I've never bothered to worry about it. Zevox |
| Renegade_Paladin02-05-07, 06:11 PM | I use the Tree/River cosmology. It doesn't really make a difference other than the difficulty in plane-shifting directly from one Outer Plane to another. |
| Old Sage02-05-07, 07:10 PM | On second thought... I've removed this reply. |
| Gray Richardson02-05-07, 08:19 PM | I prefer to use the canon FR cosmology, so I am a Tree fan, obviously. :g: However, that said, I don't see the planes as a zero-sum pie. I buy planar related products of all stripes. I used to be a really big planescape fan, and I am still very fond of that setting. When I have played Eberron, I enjoyed the fun solar-system arrangement. In my L5R game we use the Rokugan planes. My preference is to use the planes that go with each setting. However, I support and encourage everyone to use the planes however they like and in whatever configuration that works for their game. Whether you use the Tree, or the Wheel, or the Winding Road, the Countless Doorways, an Orery cosmology, or some other nifty homebrew configuration, your game is your own and you have to use what is right for you. Fans of planar adventuring should support one another. There is more that unites us than divides us. :) |
| Shemeska the Marauder02-05-07, 08:27 PM | I use the Great Wheel. If you don't use the planes, cosmology doesn't impact you at all, but if you use the planes, you want a cosmology that facilitates planar adventuring. The tree actively hampers any planar heavy, non prime material centric campaigns, and it does a disservice to ignore previous FR material dealing with the planes, and planar material touching upon FR. My campaigns have thrived both on the planes, and when they've dealt with Toril or any other worlds on the prime material, and the cohesion and interplay between all of those elements is a gorgeous thing for a good DM to play with. I like that mixture and continuity rather than removal of options. I'm not willing to accept "Its always been that way" as an explanation for the current FR planes. Other folks may hold a different opinion based on their own particular reasons, circumstances, and campaign needs. |
| Old Sparky02-05-07, 09:52 PM | I like options as much as the next guy, but I also find the tree setup interesting... I just agree with Shemeska about not liking the way the changed the history of everything and explained it away as that's how its always been. Personally, I use both cosmologies simultaneously. The Great Wheel is the big picture as it has always been. However, the Great Tree is an overlay system of conduits providing access to the planes in the current manner. Specific planes unique to the FR cosmology are only accessible through the Great Tree scheme... and the occasional odd portal in Sigil. Still, consider me a Great Wheel vote. |
| The ShapeLess One02-05-07, 10:07 PM | I use The Wheel. |
| Lord Karsus02-05-07, 11:32 PM | -I'm a Wheel fan myself. I don't even DM in the Realms, but I don't appreciate the fact that the cosmology was arbitrarily changed, without any real rhyme or reason. Even if there isn't much of an actual difference between the Tree and the Wheel...Why bothing changing things then? The Wheel has a whole lot more information about it, and it's "layers", which is something that always attracts me. |
| SATA02-06-07, 12:51 AM | Great Tree I agree about how they skip all the explanations needed for the introduction of the new cosmology for Forgetten Realms by just saying that it was always that way. Besides that, I couldn't be more happy with a cosmology unique for the Realms. I'm still craving for the total separation of Forgotten Realms from the original setting of D&D, meaning, the Realms own Player's Handbook. Personally I just use in my Realms's Campaigns, just canon material unique for the Realms and those listed as references in those sources. I don't have nothing against The Great Wheel or any other Cosmology or any other Setting based on D&D, I just think that every setting should be treating as individual and played with just the material created for them, no adaptation of any other sources or the like. Everything have it's place and way to be, no need to mess it up. |
| Stigger02-06-07, 01:08 AM | Didn't mean to sound like I was dismissing Yggdrasil there, just that it feels too much like it to make me comfortable using the 'Tree' model without feeling like the Faerunians are idiots because they mistook Yggdrasil as the Great Wheel... just doesn't work in my mind. |
| MarkusTay6302-06-07, 01:27 AM | Interesting results so far, keep 'em coming. I had thought that the wheel would be much further ahead, but I'm actually glad to see that some folks have taken to the Tree. Diversity, IMOP, is always a good thing. I'm sorry you removed your post Sage, I'm sure you would have been a tree man. :( |
| Perun02-06-07, 02:43 AM | I'm all for the Great Ring, with all 18 of the inner planes intact and modrons as the LN exemplars. I find the "new and improved" FR cosmology to have been a change for the change's sake, with no real need for it. |
| Jiggawha02-06-07, 08:32 AM | I use a mix |
| Old Sage02-06-07, 08:57 AM | I'm sorry you removed your post Sage, I'm sure you would have been a tree man. :(The Great Wheel actually. 'Tis what I started with, and, it's what I'll end my gaming days with. As for removing my post... I'm just being diplomatic. I've been involved in so many of these planar "debates", both here and at Candlekeep, that I can only take so much criticism about my views on supporting the Great Wheel. I thought it was best just to remain silent this time. |
| Lord Karsus02-06-07, 09:15 AM | Besides that, I couldn't be more happy with a cosmology unique for the Realms. I'm still craving for the total separation of Forgotten Realms from the original setting of D&D, meaning, the Realms own Player's Handbook. -See, I'm just the opposite. I like the idea of "this is all one big mutiverse, and we are all connected". I like the idea of Planescape, for the most part. |
| MarkusTay6302-06-07, 12:18 PM | The Great Wheel actually. 'Tis what I started with, and, it's what I'll end my gaming days with. As for removing my post... I'm just being diplomatic. I've been involved in so many of these planar "debates", both here and at Candlekeep, that I can only take so much criticism about my views on supporting the Great Wheel. I thought it was best just to remain silent this time.Ahhh... okay. :) I delightful surprise, I might add. I had just assumed most CKers would prefer the Tree. You just proved once again one should never assume. And so far, everything has been very mellow on this thread, which is also great. I just wanted to get some idea of what kind of percentages of people are using the new material. I'm actually a little surprised at both the numbers and who is using what; I like being proven wrong nearly as much as I like being right. ;) |
| Tergiver02-06-07, 03:01 PM | I run a planes where the Great Wheel is how the planars look at things, and the Tree is how the Realmians look at it. The Wheel is 'more' true (because I like Planescape), but there are conduits and shared realms so that the Tree is also true. Weird FR-only planes like Cynosure are probably demiplanes, but it hasn't come up yet. I have sent my Realms players on a couple of planar trips, but I like them to be more quest-related and involve passing through multiple planes and not just "Dweomerheart, third branch on the right". I don't know enough about the Tree to come up with a coherent planar journey. |
| Terraneaux02-07-07, 01:28 AM | I use the wheel. Some (not many) scholars in fr *think* that the cosmology is the great tree, but they're wrong. |
| MarkusTay6302-07-07, 01:35 AM | This is my Placekeeper. Updated the vote tallys again, things are starting to look more like I had estimated. :cool: |
| Valgard02-07-07, 09:49 AM | One vote for the Tree! Althought in my campaign I haven't already use anything extraplanar. I think the Tree is more attractive, it has unique features that like me more, such as the alignment traits of Supreme Throne. I'm with Gray, see, Renegade Paladin and SATA. |
| HVulpes02-07-07, 01:14 PM | Well I am pro-tree, but it could use more fleshing out. The way that the Forgotten Realm's divine nature has worked out it is a diety-based system. The tree seems to compliment that feature more than the wheel would have. It might help when Sean Renyolds writes up his comment on his choice to alter the cosmology. Just because it was poorly implimented, does not mean that there might not be a good reason for it. What I would love to see is a book or series of books describing the Planar Realms, perhaps including planar touchstones, planar Metropoli for the realms and outsiders of a more realms/diety specific nature like the Yochol. (and if I wan't lazy, I might have tried to fill it out more. :P ) Just some of my thoughts. |
| MarkusTay6302-07-07, 01:30 PM | We got two more Trees, so the Tree is starting to make a come back in the second half! :D |
| Shemeska the Marauder02-07-07, 01:34 PM | It might help when Sean Renyolds writes up his comment on his choice to alter the cosmology. Just because it was poorly implimented, does not mean that there might not be a good reason for it. They've been on the horizon for several years now, but they've never materialized in all that time. So I honestly doubt that we'll ever see them. |
| Old Sage02-07-07, 07:16 PM | Indeed. I think, perhaps, if those of us who are disgruntled with the planar changes, had something "in-game" -- such as an explanation -- it wouldn't be so bad. At least then, we'd have something to work with in terms of relating what those of us who are intimately familiar with the Great Wheel know, with the Great Tree. |
| Occam02-07-07, 08:11 PM | I go with the approach used by the OP. The structure of the multiverse may be the Great Wheel, but who's to say, really? It's not like you can see it from outside, all splayed out before you like at the back of the 1e PHB. If you go through a portal to a fiery hellscape, how can you tell if you're in the Nine Hells or a devil-infested portion of the Elemental Plane of Fire? (You could ask the creatures you meet there, but how do you know they're not just dupes of the Great Wheel Conspiracy?) If two portals lead to two portions of the Abyss, how can you tell they're two different "layers" of the same "plane", that one is "above" the other, that they're "next" to Pandemonium, Carceri, and the Outlands? What do these spatial relationships even mean when you're talking about (mostly) infinite planes? Even if you have actual planewalking experience, the only direct evidence of planar relationships you're likely to have is the connections you've used. You can get to anywhere from Sigil, so you might as well say Sigil is "next" to everywhere. If there's a gate from Faerun to the Abyss, why can't you say the Prime Material and the Abyss are adjacent? If you start drawing a map of planar relationships based on such directly observed evidence, it won't look anything like the Great Wheel. You'd have no reason to even posit the existence of something like the Great Wheel, unless there's some pre-existing cultural bias to that structure, or it came to you in a dream, or someone told you about it. And in most cases, it would make no practical difference at all whether you drew it as a Wheel or a Tree or a Filing Cabinet. What matters is if you have the connections or the procedures correctly documented. For instance, in my Kara-Tur campaign, people have a more simplified view of other planes. Traveling to the Elemental Plane of Wood might take you to locations in what others might call Bytopia or the Beastlands; the Realm of the Dead might be seen by others as an amalgamation of the Outlands, Baator, and other places; the Spirit World is some combination of the Ethereal and Astral Planes and some other things, depending on what you're doing. Which view is correct? Are others imposing an unjustified separation on the Realm of the Dead into separate planes that are really part of the same thing? Are the planes "connected" like branches on a tree, spokes on a wheel, or strands in a web? How would you really know? That said... IMC, there are several views, but the Great Wheel is the Real Thing. ;) |
| Demetrios02-08-07, 01:41 AM | I Personally, I use both cosmologies simultaneously. The Great Wheel is the big picture as it has always been. However, the Great Tree is an overlay system of conduits providing access to the planes in the current manner. Specific planes unique to the FR cosmology are only accessible through the Great Tree scheme... and the occasional odd portal in Sigil. That's exactly how I use it as well. It manages to keep both systems canon without too much contradiction (just the odd bit here and there, most of which can be either explained away or just ignored). |
| Ryltar Swordsong02-08-07, 03:44 AM | I use the Wheel, and I always will. |
| MarkusTay6302-08-07, 04:47 AM | Are the planes "connected" like branches on a tree, spokes on a wheel, or strands in a web? How would you really know? That said... IMC, there are several views, but the Great Wheel is the Real Thing. ;)Hmmm... the answer isn't so simple, nor is a poll. :surrender This poster agreed with me, and prefers the wheel, yet also suggests (as did I) that even the wheel is only a 'concept'. Then several other posters say they use a mix of the wheel and tree, so I started a third category of mixed/other. The problem with that is that at least two people, myself included, have stated that they will allow that native Faerunians veiw it through the concept of a 'tree' even if it isn't, and therefore use the connections as if it were a tree. So you see, even some wheel users allow that the tree exists in some way, if only as another way of seeing the same thing. Its a very tricky subject. As in Ripvantorn's excellent Imaskari/Sigil theory (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=422461), whos to say what leads to what and who created what? He manages to connect Sigil back to the Realms by having the Imaskari create it, but then, did they really? As in Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion series of books, there is a city called Tanelorn, which exists in every world, and looks different in every world, but is really all one city. And on each world they veiw the multiverse differently, yet it is all one and the same. Perhaps the connections are all in our minds, and what we believe becomes OUR reality? So if Ao decided a few years back (3e) to make everyone in Realmspace think the tree always existed, then that is how it always was to the people of faerun. Even the gods wouldn't remember it different, if all he did was change everyone's perceptions. So whatever the Overgod of a sphere decides for his personal cosmology, then that is how that one particular world must interact with the planes. Like a very powerful illusion, if you think you can't step through a 'wall' and enter another area, you can't, because you know the wall is real, even if its not. So there is no right and no wrong; the poll is merely how we in the RW prefer to view the planes, because it is more pleasing to us to do so. So my only question is, why? :confused: If it really all does not matter, then why bother even creating the tree to begin with? Wizards never gave us any reason for the change... perhaps that is why people are upset? A change just for the sake of change? Or maybe.... there new 'pet planet' had a bizarre cosmology that didn't fit into the wheel, so they 'broke' the wheel for everyone else? If the wheel exists as it did in 2e, then Eberron simply does not work. Better to just dump the whole concept then to have the new setting as the odd-man-out. Sad part is, Athas never fit either, but thanks to RL it was pulled into the fold, so why couldn't they just leave the other settings alone? I don't mind Eberron's existance, there are even a couple of things I like from it, but when they break MY REALMS to make that setting work, then that just isn't right. As the saying goes, "They threw the baby out with the bath water" :( |
| see02-08-07, 08:37 AM | So my only question is, why? :confused: My opinion is, the very moment the Time of Troubles happened, the Wheel stopped making sense for the Realms. Ao was established as such a master of the cosmos that he could pluck Realms gods from the Outer Planes and put them on the Prime. So, if he could do that to Bane, why couldn't he do it to Zeus? Yeah, you can sit down and invent rules where Ao, by virtue of ruling the Realms, can boss around the gods of the Realms no matter where they are in the cosmos. But you get all sorts of weirdness as a result. (For example, Bane and Myrkul were able to get to the Ethereal in the Time of Troubles. Under the 1e Manual of the Planes, they could have then headed for the Deep Ethereal, and from there to an Elemental Plane, and from there through a portal to Greyhawk. If they have Mordenkainen then open a gate to Acheron, does Helm suddenly appear in the way to stop Bane from going through?) It's simpler and more reasonable to separate the Realms cosmos from the rest of the multiverse, except for a link through the Plane of Shadow. The problems go away; Ao is the overpower for all the planes in the FR cosmology, and can exert power over all of their inhabitants. Now, once you've made the Realms cosmology separate from the one where there are Greyhawk and Greek gods running around, you could have the FR cosmolgy be wheel-shaped. But it would still be a cosmology separate from the Great Wheel, so why not make one with more FR-specific flavor? Anyway, that's my take. |
| Shemeska the Marauder02-08-07, 09:48 AM | My opinion is, the very moment the Time of Troubles happened, the Wheel stopped making sense for the Realms. Ao was established as such a master of the cosmos that he could pluck Realms gods from the Outer Planes and put them on the Prime. So, if he could do that to Bane, why couldn't he do it to Zeus? Because Zeus didn't have a formal deific presence established on Toril. That's the thing you're overlooking. Ao has absolutely no power over anything outside the bounds of Toril, or over gods who haven't formally established a divine presence on Ao's solar system. There's no wierdness there. That was just how things were established. It's no more wierd than saying that Mystra can manipulate the Weave but not the Shadow Weave, or that Gods view things through the lens of their portfolios. That's just how things were set up. (For example, Bane and Myrkul were able to get to the Ethereal in the Time of Troubles. Under the 1e Manual of the Planes, they could have then headed for the Deep Ethereal, and from there to an Elemental Plane, and from there through a portal to Greyhawk. If they have Mordenkainen then open a gate to Acheron, does Helm suddenly appear in the way to stop Bane from going through?) It's likely that when Ao forced them to manifest an avatar, or confined their deific essence into a single manifested form, that he blocked their ability to access the planes beyond the near ethereal (which is as much a portion of Toril as anything else, and till you go beyond the boundary you're not free of Ao's strictures). At least one god tried to worm her way out from under Ao's thumb by finding a roundabout way to leave Toril and gain access to the planes. This didn't work out so well for her, but in theory she could have done so. I suspect that Ao might have culled her divine power on Toril for such an act had she been successful though. Now, once you've made the Realms cosmology separate from the one where there are Greyhawk and Greek gods running around, you could have the FR cosmolgy be wheel-shaped. But it would still be a cosmology separate from the Great Wheel, so why not make one with more FR-specific flavor? Because there's decades of history and lore and cross-pollination with those other gods, other planes, and other worlds that won't go away quietly, and which have been there since FR was first in print. It takes something away from the setting to strip those things away, twice so when the lore cull is done without in-game explanation for hazy, seemingly whimsical and never truly explained out-of-game reasons. And for those seeking to run planar games, the new planar setup by being focused around specific gods rather than the planes themselves and the alignment forces that shape them, is actively difficult to have a place where PCs can be more than bystanders. But again, that's just my take on the matter as well. |
| Neutronium_Dragon02-08-07, 10:45 AM | The Tree. Definitely the tree. 1) I've never liked the wheel, even back in 1E days. Not only does it feel artificial, but it creates a situation where only the truly idiotic would ever willingly be evil. 2) The wheel is now tied to Planescape, which pushes the attitude that individual game settings don't really matter because they're insignificant in the grand scheme of things. I don't like that attitude, and I certainly don't appreciate the implication that PCs in the FR (or elsewhere) don't matter. They're supposed to be the heroes of the story. 3) The FR was always supposed to have its own cosmology. It only got yoked to the wheel cosmology because of a 2E-TSR directive that all settings had to conform to one cosmology (on the theory that that would make gamers by plane-related books more often). 4) The tree makes a lot more sense, frankly. Gods are grouped by their nature and interests rather than being arbitrarily scattered all over the cosmology for the sake of alignment-fixation. (And I note that even the wheel had to concede to this point with various pantheons tied to a single plane even when they didn't all match the alignment of that plane.) |
| Shemeska the Marauder02-08-07, 12:01 PM | 2) The wheel is now tied to Planescape, which pushes the attitude that individual game settings don't really matter because they're insignificant in the grand scheme of things. I don't like that attitude, and I certainly don't appreciate the implication that PCs in the FR (or elsewhere) don't matter. They're supposed to be the heroes of the story. Couldn't disagree with you more. The Tree feels like it was designed to say and emphasize that mortal PCs have no place visiting the planes, much less have the capability to affect things there. From my perspective and experience, PCs in the Great Wheel have more of an opportunity to impact things than in the Tree. Belief has power, that was one of the central ideas within the cosmology, but the Tree is often largely static and sterile w/ respect to the influence of mortals or the clash of ideologies and philosophies given that the new cosmology is the backyard of deities rather than infinite landscapes of manifest alignment and belief. The complexity and awesomeness seems lost. 3) The FR was always supposed to have its own cosmology. It only got yoked to the wheel cosmology because of a 2E-TSR directive that all settings had to conform to one cosmology (on the theory that that would make gamers by plane-related books more often). That's completely and utterly wrong on a factual level. FR was part of the Great Wheel in 1e, and it was part of that cosmology since TSR put it in print. It had nothing to do with 2e, or trying to sell plane-related books (which 1e didn't exactly have many of...). Greenwood's home game prior to it being a published D&D world may have had a different cosmology, but it was one that apparently couldn't be used because of potential copyright issues involved. But then again the FR that saw print and development isn't identical to Greenwood's home game, it's its own thing entirely. Plus, if it matters to you, Greenwood has indicated that he would have preferred if the Realms hadn't been ripped away into a seperate cosmology in 3e. 4) The tree makes a lot more sense, frankly. Gods are grouped by their nature and interests rather than being arbitrarily scattered all over the cosmology for the sake of alignment-fixation. (And I note that even the wheel had to concede to this point with various pantheons tied to a single plane even when they didn't all match the alignment of that plane.) Gods in the Wheel were often in the plane of their alignment because the metaphysical location fit their sensibilities and made for good relations with the natives of the plane. An LE deity like Set isn't going to be happy sharing space on a CG plane just because his estranged wife happens to have her deific domain there. Deities weren't bound to living on a plane that exactly reflected their alignment, but for the reasons I indicate, it was a general trend with numerous, poignant exceptions. The Tree however makes the alignment based outsiders irrelevant, making them play second fiddle to deities. |
| Neutronium_Dragon02-08-07, 12:23 PM | It's funny how some of the ex-TSR/WotC folks tell different tales about the origins of "everyone's on the Wheel" - generally matching up to what I posted above. But as for the gods being more important than the outsiders - good. The FR's cosmological setup has been that way since the ToT stuff, if not earlier, being about the balance of power between the gods, not about a balance of power between abstract and often rather mushily defined ideals. (Just look at all the "what alignment is X" threads which populate the boards.) With the tree, the gods define the cosmology rather than being just a few inconspicuous faces lost amidst a sea of much greater planar powers - which, for the FR, is just how it should be. |
| Shemeska the Marauder02-08-07, 12:37 PM | It's funny how some of the ex-TSR/WotC folks tell different tales about the origins of "everyone's on the Wheel" - generally matching up to what I posted above. You claimed it's a 2e thing forced onto the realms, but it's there in the 1e books dude. It's not a matter of contention or debate in the slightest. |
| ripvanwormer02-08-07, 01:32 PM | The Forgotten Realms used a wheel cosmology more or less identical to the current one before TSR ever bought the setting. The Wheel is the shape the Faerunian pantheon was originally designed to fit. It was Greenwood's intention that each god dwelled in a separate plane or planar layer. However, it's true that, in Ed Greenwood's original campaign, the gods of the Realms didn't have to share real estate with Greyhawk gods, Dragonlance gods, or even real-world-inspired gods not part of the Faerunian pantheon. It was probably the 1st edition Manual of the Planes that definitively forced every world into the same cosmology, although this had been implied since the 1st edition of Deities & Demigods back in 1980. While Jeff Grubb didn't mention any world-specific gods in it other than a few Dragonlance ones, it became the default map of the planes for every setting. Because the gods of Faerun explicitly dwelled on those planes according to the 1st edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, they therefore shared those planes with all the other gods mentioned in the MotP. Planescape did not push the attitude that PCs in individual settings "don't matter." As Shemeska showed, they actually matter more than they do in the Tree cosmology, because in Planescape an individual PC can make the difference between a planar layer shifting into another plane, while in the Tree cosmology only the gods are important to the planes. If you're going to connect the various worlds at all, whether through the Plane of Shadow as is currently held or through the Astral Plane as it was held in previous editions, then you've got the same problem that your one world isn't "special," it's only one of many. The only way to change this is to sever the connection completely. It's actually easier to get from world to world via the Plane of Shadow, since it only takes a few hours walk through Deep Shadow, while navigating the Astral Plane can take much longer (and is no less dangerous). As I see it, this isn't really a problem at all; if the campaign is built primarily around a single world, that's the world that matters to the PCs, regardless of whether or not they know that others theoretically exist. If your campaign spans many worlds, your PCs are going to look at any one world as less significant. This, then, depends entirely on your campaign, not the cosmology you choose to use. Even if they view Toril as less important than otherwise, it doesn't mean the PCs are less significant, just their world of origin. 1) I've never liked the wheel, even back in 1E days. Not only does it feel artificial, but it creates a situation where only the truly idiotic would ever willingly be evil. Lots of people do things they know are bad for them because short-term rewards usually trump long-term fears. Insert any bad habit you can think of in place of "be evil," and real life provides ample proof of this. What's more, most people convince themselves that they'll end up as rulers of the lower planes, not the slaves. Those who know much about the planes at all, that is. Your average person knows no more about the afterlife than people in the real world do. Does the belief in Hell in real life "create a situation where only the truly idiotic would ever willingly be evil?" Of course it doesn't! Furthermore, the Lower Planes in the Great Wheel cosmology are not necessarily a place of punishment. Sure, it's bad to end up as a lemure or a larva, but becoming a petitioner of Set isn't really any worse an existence than a petitioner of Osiris. Being a petitioner of Bane isn't really any worse than being a petitioner of Tyr. Finally, how is this different in the Great Tree cosmology? The Great Tree has its planes of evil just as the Wheel does, and except for how they're arranged they're nearly identical in every respect. How is becoming a manes in the Tree's Abyss better than being one in the Wheel's Abyss? How is becoming a larva in Blood Rift worse than becoming one in Hades? How is becoming a petitioner of Bane in the Tree cosmology worse than becoming a petitioner of Bane in the Wheel cosmology? Gods are grouped by their nature and interests rather than being arbitrarily scattered all over the cosmology for the sake of alignment-fixation. (And I note that even the wheel had to concede to this point with various pantheons tied to a single plane even when they didn't all match the alignment of that plane.) Well, exactly. As you admit, it's true in the Wheel as well that gods aren't necessarily "scattered across the cosmology" if they don't wish to be. If they wish to dwell on other planes, they can. But the "alignment fixation" isn't arbitrary. It reflects some of the major themes of D&D - the eternal conflict between Law and Chaos, Good and Evil. Not all gods involve themselves in this conflict, but most do. This is why the Faerunian pantheon looks the way it does, because Ed Greenwood selected those gods who would be distributed evenly around the Wheel. One of Sean K. Reynolds' primary justifications for realigning the cosmology in the way he did was his claim that the Forgotten Realms wasn't about those themes. Fair enough. But as you noted, it's perfectly possible for gods in the Great Wheel to organize themselves any way they want. |
| MarkusTay6302-08-07, 01:44 PM | Point and counter-point. I have loved the wheel since I bought my first copy of of the DMG. I still open it up once in a while to check out the pitures/diagrams of the cosmology. I think Ed used something VERY similar to the cosmology in Michael Moorcock's books (Eternal Champion stuff), as do I. I like the concept of the Middlemarch, which is MY border-ethereal (now moved to the Shadow-border thanks to 3e). The great wheel cosmology fits better with Moorcock's vision of the eternal struggle between law and Chaos, although not perfectly. But I do see 'See's' point (change that name dude), the ToT really screwed things up. When Lolth was stuck in Menzoberranzan, did Drow on other planes lose their spells? What about Corellon and all the other Demi-human deities? What happened to their followers in other spheres when they were trapped? I don't think Ao should have had the power to force 'Archtypes' to manifest in the Realms, and as far as my game is concerned he didn't. They only manifested a single avatar and were barred from using any more power/avatars then that. It makes more sense that way, otherwise you'd have a whole bunch of unhappy demi-humans knocking on FR's door. I also always hated the fact that the Elves lived on Olympus! That just never felt right to me, they should have had their own layer, with seperate domains for each group of Elven Gods (like the Norse Vanir). |
| ripvanwormer02-08-07, 03:45 PM | the ToT really screwed things up. When Lolth was stuck in Menzoberranzan, did Drow on other planes lose their spells? The Time of Troubles was a horrible idea in every respect. I don't think TSR could have come up with a more blatantly artificial deus ex machina world-altering PC-diminishing metaplot if they had tried. It screwed up any number of things, but the fault belongs to the Time of Troubles, not to the things it screwed up. However, Faiths and Avatars was clear that the answer to your question is no. When a god is worshipped in more than one crystal sphere, as Lolth was, one of her avatars was imprisoned on Toril while the goddess herself was unaffected. By becoming involved on the world of Toril, the gods put one aspect of themselves under Ao's power, leaving themselves otherwise free. Those who are only involved on Toril are entirely under Ao's auspices. I also always hated the fact that the Elves lived on Olympus! That's why the elves call it Arvandor. Olympus is just the Greek name for the plane. |
| GothicDan02-08-07, 04:01 PM | I <3 Rip. Almost everything that people dislike about the Wheel (whether or not I think their reasons have any actual foundation in printed canon) is represented (in a much shoddier fashion) in the Tree, too. |
| MarkusTay6302-08-07, 04:57 PM | The Time of Troubles was a horrible idea in every respect. I don't think TSR could have come up with a more blatantly artificial deus ex machina world-altering PC-diminishing metaplot if they had tried. It screwed up any number of things, but the fault belongs to the Time of Troubles, not to the things it screwed up. Couldn't agree with this more, considering that they had both Planescape AND Spelljammer going strong at the time. What a headache it has been sorting out the mess ever since. However, Faiths and Avatars was clear that the answer to your question is no. When a god is worshipped in more than one crystal sphere, as Lolth was, one of her avatars was imprisoned on Toril while the goddess herself was unaffected. By becoming involved on the world of Toril, the gods put one aspect of themselves under Ao's power, leaving themselves otherwise free. Those who are only involved on Toril are entirely under Ao's auspices. Okay, so IT WAS just like I figured (in my above post). I have Faiths and Avatars, but I don't remember that being in there, but then again I never read it cover-to-cover. This makes more sense, considering the company uses the same names for demi-human deities and demon/devils in almost every setting. That's why the elves call it Arvandor. Olympus is just the Greek name for the plane.Ahhh, but in the novel Evermeet, they even refer to it in several places as 'Olympus' (The plane, not the domain), and even make reference to the Greek gods living next door. Kinda out-of-place in FR, don't ya' think? (Not belittling Elaine's work in ANY WAY, I think she did a marvelous job piecing together so much disparate lore). The plane is called Arboria, which is fine, but then Arvandor should have been it's own layer, not a domain, especially considering that the final and 3rd layer of Arboria is basically NOTHING but sand and dust. Thats one part of the Wheel I wouldn't mind seeing changed. Thank you for responding to this thread Rip, I greatly respect your writing and your contributions to Realmsian psuedo-lore. :D Same goes for you Shem, I've been a fan of yours for awhile over at Enworld. ;) |
| ripvanwormer02-08-07, 05:28 PM | Ahhh, but in the novel Evermeet, they even refer to it in several places as 'Olympus' Elaine Cunningham aside, other sources are clear that the elves don't refer to it as Olympus. This has been true since Dragon #60, but is mentioned in the 1st and 3rd edition Manual of the Planes, in Planes of Chaos, and in the 2e Complete Book of Elves. and even make reference to the Greek gods living next door. "Next door" is stretching things, but they dwell on the same layer of the same plane, which they call different names. That's not saying much, though - they're separated by thousands of miles of wilderness, and they don't interact at all. The plane is called Arborea, which is fine, but then Arvandor should have been it's own layer, not a domain Why's that? The layer is infinite; there's plenty of room for two (or a hundred) pantheons to exist on it without any conflict or interaction between them. especially considering that the final and 3rd layer of Arborea is basically NOTHING but sand and dust. But that's what's so cool about it; it contains many ruins and secrets where once a mysterious elder race held sway, the remnants of a once-fertile ground, the realms of lost gods, the graveyard of the titans, possibly the source of the eladrins. The first layer of Arborea (Olympus/Arvandor) represents the experience of the present; its rapturous, boisterous inhabitants live in the now. The second layer (Ossa/Aquallor) is the past, the liquid, changeable landscape of memory as seen from a chaotic perspective. The third layer (Pelion/Mithardir) is that which is forgotten, that which has vanished even from memory. It is the ruins of a secret history where many things wait to be excavated. Perhaps it is the result of an ancient cataclysm that wracked the Upper Planes (such as the war between the gods and giants, which even the elves fought in), or perhaps it is the inevitable result of the entropic touch of Chaos. Do you need a powerful artifact or secret even the gods have forgotten about? It goes here. Pelion is, bar none, my favorite Upper Planar region. |
| see02-08-07, 05:52 PM | Because Zeus didn't have a formal deific presence established on Toril. That's the thing you're overlooking. No, I'm not overlooking it. I'm saying it's a painfully convoluted explanation. Ao, as you say, "has absolutely no power over anything outside the bounds of Toril". Yet, at the same time, he can grab gods off the planes. But, only if they're worshiped in the Realms. Unless they have worshipers outside the Realms, then he can't yank them off the planes, just have them gamble an avatar and their connections to the Realms. Except, all the gods probably do have worshipers outside the Realms, on other planes and in other spheres, given various bits of Spelljammer and Planescape canon, so there's going to be a non-Toril Waukeen still in the Eternal Marketplace during the Avatar Crisis. Except that it's established there isn't one. Instead, I prefer putting all the Realms gods on planes that are entirely under Ao's domain, greatly simplifying the matter. It can remain connected to the Great Wheel somewhat less directly via portals and even spells that exploit the Plane of Shadow connection, with full potential for crossover campaigns. Ao then can gate-keep the Shadow, not letting gods from other cosmologies act within the Realms, though he'll let them send an aspect that becomes an independent Realms power. Yeah, it undoes old canon. I happen to be okay with that, though I understand those who prefer to maintain it even if it gets convoluted. |
| ripvanwormer02-08-07, 06:25 PM | If we're undoing old canon, my preference would be to get rid of Ao. That would simplify things tremendously, and greatly improve the setting. |
| Gray Richardson02-08-07, 08:50 PM | Ahhh, but in the novel Evermeet, they even refer to it in several places as 'Olympus' (The plane, not the domain), and even make reference to the Greek gods living next door. Kinda out-of-place in FR, don't ya' think? (Not belittling Elaine's work in ANY WAY, I think she did a marvelous job piecing together so much disparate lore). The plane is called Arboria, which is fine, but then Arvandor should have been it's own layer, not a domain, especially considering that the final and 3rd layer of Arboria is basically NOTHING but sand and dust. Thats one part of the Wheel I wouldn't mind seeing changed.Actually, there is a good reason for the Olympus references that works within the context of the tree. The Greek goddess Tyche interloped into the cosmos and was a major god back in the Netheril days. Not surpassingly creative, it appears that Tyche simply named her new divine realm "Olympus" after the plane she had come from in another cosmos. Her realm appears to have been part of the plane of Arvandor up until the time of her death in the Dawn Cataclysm. It may also be that this unified plane was sometimes called Arboria. After Tyche's death, Tymora kept Tyche's realm, while Beshaba left for another plane. At some point the name of her realm changed from Olympus to Brightwater. Over 60 years ago (best guess is around 1312 DR during Shieldmeet) Tymora, Liira and Sune together split their realms off from Arvandor/Arboria, and formed their own plane which they called Brightwater. For the time frame in question in the Novel Evermeet, Elaine's Olympus references can be completely harmonized with current canon. :) |
| Old Sparky02-10-07, 12:42 AM | Completely? Even the references to the Greek gods living "next door"? I mean, even if "next door" refers to another (adjacent) plane, it is a reference to divine powers that have no power base within the FR cosmology... they existed in the planes that once were but now simply do not. WTH?! Sorry, there is no reconciling away the differences the way you are suggesting, Gray... that's merely turning a blind eye to the inconsistencies, not harmonizing anything. |
| Gray Richardson02-10-07, 01:59 AM | Most people are familiar with Clarke's Third Law which states that: "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Less well known is Clarke's First Law which states: "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong." I believe it is possible to harmonize and reconcile old lore with new. Clarke's Law would seem to support my belief. There is a fantastic wealth of imagination on these boards. It takes imagination to see what is possible. If imagination is applied to harmonizing and resolving conflicts there is no limit to what we can achieve. "Impossible" is the mantra of those who lack imagination. |
| Gray Richardson02-10-07, 02:20 AM | accidental double post |
| MarkusTay6302-10-07, 02:30 AM | I look at it this way, Arvandor is a seperate little bubble. In fact, all Domains are seperate little bubbles, just like demi-planes. People on the wheel coming from Arboria can ride their horse into Arvandor and never know the entered a different realm, because their is a permanent gate miles across. You ride into a forest in Olympus, and ride out in Arvador. It you were to circle around the forest, there would be no Arvandor on the other side, get it? Now, the same exact thing applies to the Tree, except perhaps the gate is a little smaller from the tree to Arvandor. There is probably a major portal from both Fäerie and Asgard (Alfheim), as well as a thousand others that lead to worlds where the Seldarine are worshipped. The thing is, all realms (cosmologies) dump-out of the same portal on the Arvandor side. When an Outsider or God enter the portal he can exit to any other portal, but when a native of the Prime material (or Prime, for short) exits the region he or she winds up back on the plane/tree/region they first entered Arvandor from. So all of the Domains are actually seperate from the cosmologies IMHO, and the cosmologies are just the doorways through which mortals enter divine realms. So basically, A gods Domain can have as many connections to other planes as they see fit. My rule of thumb - Archtypes like Corellon get the amount of Avatars listed for their DvR, +1 for each sphere they are actively worshipped in. Also, they are never allowed to manifest more then their listed number of Avatars on any one plane (In other words, every plane gets ONE, and the rest {listed amount} are extras). Keeps the game mechanics pretty much the same while also explaining how Corellon or others can be on over a thousand worlds. Just my way of making all the changes make sense. |
| Occam02-10-07, 01:43 PM | This poster agreed with me, and prefers the wheel, yet also suggests (as did I) that even the wheel is only a 'concept'. Then several other posters say they use a mix of the wheel and tree, so I started a third category of mixed/other. The problem with that is that at least two people, myself included, have stated that they will allow that native Faerunians veiw it through the concept of a 'tree' even if it isn't, and therefore use the connections as if it were a tree. So you see, even some wheel users allow that the tree exists in some way, if only as another way of seeing the same thing. Its a very tricky subject. Now I'm going to turn around on my own post, and admit that I made the case for multiversal relativism a bit too completely, in order to make the point. However, if the Great Wheel represents the "real" structure of the multiverse, there would be some clues. For instance, once someone starts figuring the ins and outs of plane shift, they're going to notice unexpected commonalities and discrepancies. Also, an experienced planewalker could presumably map the locations of gate towns in the Outlands, which provides geographical hints as to the relative "locations" of the outer planes (again, whatever that means within the context of infinite planes). So there could be ways to discover an objective multiversal structure. Such a discovery would be akin to finding the small observational clues that eventually overturned the Ptolemaic model of the universe. Up to a certain level of knowledge and observational capacity, you could claim that Earth-centric and Sun-centric models of the cosmos are two equivalent ways of viewing the same thing, but really, one is correct and the other isn't. Having PCs discover those clues and put them together to rewrite their world's view of the multiverse could make for an interesting campaign thread. |
| Cthulhu02-10-07, 02:18 PM | Superficially I'm a Great Wheel fan. I don't use the planes in my games though so its kind of a irrelevant point. I'm far more likely to have my group go spelljamming than planehopping. |
| miscellany02-10-07, 10:14 PM | <comes out of retirement> For the game I run with Miss Miscellany and Friends, I use the Great Tree. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: And now, some facts and thoughts: The Great Tree has not ever taken anything away that existed before. The cross-pollinating is still there; it never stopped. This is the one claim that I see most often repeated online and that just as often is always wrong. It’s a core theme of the Realms that it’s connected to other words, realities and places. This hasn’t changed. It’s not a core theme of the Realms that The Realms should be focused on anything other than itself (this includes sourcebooks, novels, actual gameplay, etc...) The Realms isn’t about what happens in Sigil. It’s not supposed to be concerned with what happens when Lloth or Orcus die in Greyhawk (and so is not to be burdened with the annoying rules/canon concerns that result). The Great Tree concept serves as a buffer; that is it put a stop to the over-pollinating (more like pollution) that was taking place during mid to late 2nd Edition. The Realms was loosing its focus as other worlds and new game mechanics were constantly shoehorned into it....so it was becoming harder to manage and turning much too much towards focusing on Deities and over-powered NPCs and their exploits...whereas it’s supposed to be about The Realms first and the actions of ‘lesser’ beings like player characters a very close second. The Great Tree concept removes any over-connectedness amongst the gods from multiple worlds. The Realms Cosmology was structured around the great wheel but was also it’s own cosmology. Many Realmsfans point to the first fact to say “it’s always been this way from the start” yet without fail they forget the second, more important fact. The Realms Cosmology pre-Grey Box was built to suit the Realms, not to suit other game worlds or pay homage to them. But by late 2E, that’s what the Realms Cosmology was doing. The Great Tree discards this unnecessary baggage and puts the focus back where it belongs (on the Realms) without disconnecting the Realms from other worlds and realities. During the build-up to 3E customer research showed most campaigns don’t go to high level and rarely visit the planes. Couple this with the fact that adventuring in the Realms is about adventuring in the Realms and we see why it makes sense to re-shape them (the Planes) to focus play on the campaign world itself. Note that with rare Divine exceptions fiends and the like must move through the Realms to get to other planes. What better way to bring the planes to a campaign? Any Realmsfan worth the name knows what a big mistake the Time of Troubles were. Yet we often see people asking for a repeat of same when they demand an ‘in-game’ reason to explain away the Great Tree concept....as though the need to have something explained were a good enough reason to turn the game world on its head a second time. There’s quite a bit out there for those who bother to look explaining why the change happened. The claim that such was never truly explained ‘out of game’ is a false one. I’d like to see a direct quote stating Ed’s preference (not something inferred, mind, but a direct quote). I’ve read his statements about the importance of continuity, but nothing direct on the matter of the planes. What disappoints me is that we’ve had what amounts to one great big cop-out from WotC and those few pre-3E game designers that write what gets published in Realms sourcebooks. Here they have this massive opportunity to redefine and reshape the Realms Cosmology and all its contents into something better reflecting the Realms.....and we get next to nothing. In fact, in many instances we’ve gotten only backsliding. :::::::::::::::::::: With that a note to Shem, Rip, Sage, Dan, etc....I know some or all of you will disagree with us; you have before. So let me say this post is our interpretation and we accept in advance your disagreement. Big Sloppy Kiss to Shemeska from Miss Miscellany (but not from me!). Here’s a :tissue:. Sorry for the wet slobber! :pbbbtt: from me. Oh and liked your Dragon article, BTW....good stuff. (honest!) <back to retirement, team!> |
| ripvanwormer02-11-07, 12:32 AM | Any Realmsfan worth the name knows what a big mistake the Time of Troubles were. Yet we often see people asking for a repeat of same when they demand an ‘in-game’ reason to explain away the Great Tree concept....as though they need to have something explained were a good enough reason to turn the game world on its head a second time. I do agree with this. I would cringe at any attempt at explaining in-game the multiverse suddenly reconfiguring itself. I'm happier with a straight retcon. |
| Dark Wizard02-11-07, 01:59 AM | An explanation of the planar changes does not HAVE to involve a RSE. It most likely would, but it's not required or inevitable. |
| Old Sparky02-11-07, 09:02 AM | An in-game explanation does not require a huge event to reshape the planes... it could merely be an in-game nod to acknowledge the difference by having sages discover the "true nature" of the planes, recognizing the Great Tree over the old wheel philosophy... and maybe even have a couple of die hards who won't accept the new theory. As it is, to just change from one to the other without explanation does take away from the Realms history by essentially saying somethings that once existed no longer do and that any novels and/or sourcebooks that mention planes that no longer exist are wrong. They're also stating that anyone who played in 2e and used planar travelling to get from one place to another (and maybe visited certain planes) that your characters' exploits are now wrong... whether they were wrong for having bypassed the plane of shadow or wrong for going from one plane to the next without hopping through the material plane or wrong for visiting places that no longer exist, you now have to retcon your own histories. Here's my main complaint about the whole "shifting the focus back on the Realms" argument they make in favor of the Great Tree... you didn't need to rewrite the nature of the planes to do this. If you want to take the focus off of the planes and put it back on FR, then choose not to focus on the "over connectedness" of the planes in the Great Wheel. Don't write adventures for Sigil for FR characters. Saying that Sigil no longer exists or is now further removed than it once was over complicates the refocusing. Keeping the old wheel and everything that came along with them doesn't force them to go into any more detail about the "excess baggage" any more than the continued existance of Kara-tur or Zakhara forces them to write FR material that updates either of those settings. They get a mention and nothing more to date... that's it. No "pollution" of the core Realms material for keeping them in the continuity, but no need for blatant rewrites/explanations for why history is now different; and it doesn't take away from people who were actively using the Realms as their base of operations for planar-based campaigns as they'd always done. And yes, people can choose to ignore the new and keep with the old, but some people refuse to play anything but canon and thus cause conflicts with players that would normally play together but refuse to change their game preferences. |
| ripvanwormer02-11-07, 02:32 PM | it could merely be an in-game nod to acknowledge the difference by having sages discover the "true nature" of the planes, recognizing the Great Tree over the old wheel philosophy... and maybe even have a couple of die hards who won't accept the new theory. That would have been a good solution. Keeping the old wheel and everything that came along with them doesn't force them to go into any more detail about the "excess baggage" any more than the continued existance of Kara-tur or Zakhara forces them to write FR material that updates either of those settings. This is a good point. What's more, the Plane of Shadow doesn't separate the Realms from other worlds any more than the Astral Plane (or the Phlogiston) did before. If anything, the Realms are more tightly connected to Eberron and Oerth now than ever; spelljamming in particular was a comparatively arduous way of getting from world to world, while shadowgates are simplicity itself. If the purpose of the new cosmology was to create a buffer between campaign settings (and I don't agree that it was), the result was a failure. If Toril seems more distant than it was in 2e, this is just a matter of emphasis, not of cosmology. but some people refuse to play anything but canon. Those people deserve what they get. |
| Gray Richardson02-11-07, 04:12 PM | A number of years ago DC comics rebooted their continuity and changed their own "cosmology" with an RSE (or a DCUSE) called the Crisis on the Infinite Earths. DC continuity had previously had a metaverse of infinite parallel earths, which were relatively easy to travel between, some of them silly, some of they quite cool. In the Crisis, most of these parallel earths were destroyed but the handful of surviving earths were merged into one single Earth, and the merged timeline was retconned back to the beginning of time. When all was said and done, no one remembered that the universe had ever been any other way. This allowed DC to fix a lot of inconsistencies and problematic power scale levels, and get rid of a lot of silly stuff that had crept into continuity over the course of 50 years. It allowed DC to tell new stories with new takes on old characters and was a very positive thing for the DC universe. I am very comfortable with such a concept, and my own personal view is that something like this has happened to the TSRniverse. I figure there was a similar "Crisis of the Infinite Primes" that altered the TSR cosmology (as we knew it) back to the beginning of time in such a way that most, if not all, of its residents do not remember how things used to be. I always thought WotC might address this in a novel or a sourcebook or an adventure somewhere. (Some people have suggested that it was already addressed in one of the Vecna adventures) But I don't really need WotC to tell me what happened. It happened. There is an explanation out there somewhere, even if it hasn't been revealed to us. I think it is fun to speculate about what the explanation might be. Without WotC telling us the answer, this leaves DM's free to come up with their own theory. I can imagine a host of different explanations for the cosmology change: An overgod war. The Sundering cracking the Crystal Sphere. Vecna breaking the universes apart. An invasion of alien entities from the Far Realms. A war at the end of time between Ilsensine and the last remaining humans & demi-humans. LeShay machinations. etc. We all know that WotC could hire some great writers to write a novel or adventure explaining away the cosmology changes. They may still do that in the future. But we don't really need them to do that. Let's just accept that some sort of event happened, that there is a good explanation for it and move on. I almost prefer it being a mystery. That said, the new cosmology has not destroyed the Great Wheel. It has opened it up. The Great Wheel still exists, It just hooks up to Toril differently, by way of the plane of Shadow. There are not fewer planes, there are more planes now. Every world can have its own outer planes, and still be connected to existing alternate prime worlds. Now the WotC metaverse is even bigger than it was, with so many more places to discover and explore. Our horizons are expanded. Opportunities for adventure abound. In my mind it's a very good thing. ;) |
| Old Sparky02-11-07, 06:37 PM | What it means is more planes... Nine Hells x2, Abyss x2, and a handful of other planes that have equal representation in both cosmologies. That means we have Asmodeus and crew in the FR cosmology... but they are independant of the Asmodeus and crew of the Great Wheel. THAT (and everything else like it) is going too far with this "more planes" line of thinking. I think the Great Tree was intended to separate the FR setting from the rest of the universe it was formerly attached to... arbitrarily and with no good reason other than the game designers that got their hands on FR3e decided this was better for FR gaming. The accessing planes outside the FR cosmology through the plane of shadow was thrown like an afterthought in to appease people who preferred to keep using the Great Wheel (as if they couldn't introduce the "Tree" as a beginner option and everyone else could ignore the inconsistencies by ignoring the whole Tree cosmology entirely). But yes, throwing out two former editions worth of history and duplicating some planes between the two cosmologies has been such a swimming success. In fact, there was a lot of controversy over the new cosmology when it was introduced... but I think the designers were either too full of themselves or too afraid to admit they goofed, and they try to flesh out the planes of the new cosmology even though they first tried to rationalize that the planes aren't what FR gaming is about. The stupid tree has been one big horrible mistake. Trying to excuse the rewrite inconsistencies by offering the explanation that the FR setting was squeezed into Great Wheel even though that isn't the cosmology Ed Greenwood had originally envisioned is not a reasonable excuse. Trying to explain that it was to isolate the FR 3e setting to make it friendlier to new customers doesn't hold any water either because it doesn't truly separate it and it causes backlash with existing customers. Pretending that the planes weren't important to FR campaigns fails because demand for planar adventures have always worked well, and even FR novels explore the planes at times. And finally, trying to limit planar content so people don't get overwhelmed feeling a need to by more books than a set of core books fails because they could have used the Great Wheel and explored only what they need of those planes and ignored gods outside the Faerunian pantheon. It was a bad choice, and I will never have anything but criticism for the decision regardless of what other good those game designers have brought to the Realms in the new edition... until they FIX the cosmology and restore the Great Wheel. And it does need to be fixed; it is broken and I hate it as it is now. |
| MarkusTay6302-11-07, 06:46 PM | Since both the Tree and Wheel are 'theoretical constructs' conceived by tiny little mortal brains, it should not matter at all what you use. What you believe in becomes your own personal reality. The universe is just one big illusion. ;) The savings throw to disbelieve would be at least 300 (Thomas Covenant was able to do it). :cool: During the build-up to 3E customer research showed most campaigns don’t go to high level and rarely visit the planes. Couple this with the fact that adventuring in the Realms is about adventuring in the Realms and we see why it makes sense to re-shape them (the Planes) to focus play on the campaign world itself.If this is true, then it defeats the entire purpose of your argument. If almost no one ever makes it to the planes, then WHY BOTHER changing it? :confused: I am very comfortable with such a concept, and my own personal view is that something like this has happened to the TSRniverse. I figure there was a similar "Crisis of the Infinite Primes" that altered the TSR cosmology (as we knew it) back to the beginning of time in such a way that most, if not all, of its residents do not remember how things used to be.Unfortunately, DC too has been guilty of 'dipping' into no-longer existing realities. I was a big fan of the ret-con though. I agree that no one would remember the cosmos as being any different, and proposed this over at CK, if you recall. We don't need a NEW RSE, the ToT will do just fine. After all the headaches that caused for Ao, he decided he wanted the vast majority of humanity (and perhaps the gods as well) to just forget everything they learned during the ToT. Mortals should not know of Ao, or secrets of the Universe, so he just waved his hand and retro-actively made everyone think it has always been thus. Ao is supposed to be the living embodiment of Realmspace (DC's Eternity); if a little old demi-plane like ravenloft can manipulate peoples memories, then why can't a plane? You see, we already have a precedent for a 'realm' changing the memories of its inhabitants to better suit its needs. Mystra: "But master, what of the Wheel?" Ao:"What Wheel?" Mystra {looking confused}: "Ummm what were we talking about?" Ao {waves hand}:"These aren't the droids you're looking for" Mystra: "Whats a droid?" Ao: "Exactly" ;) |
| BadCatMan02-11-07, 08:09 PM | If we're still voting... my 2cp. I started with 3.5, so it's the Tree for me. Not that it's ever come up, we won't be plane-travelling for a long time, and not much of it. But there are few planes from the core D&D Wheel (?) that aren't in the Tree that I might like to use one day (such as Hades), so I'll just plug them in somewhere. |
| Shemeska the Marauder02-11-07, 08:37 PM | FWIW, since it relates to seperate cosmologies or not, Cynosure is mentioned (along with its purpose pertaining to the Faerunian pantheon) in the listing of 30 odd demiplanes in the latest issue of Dragon #353, as well as a demiplane associated with the Krynnish pantheon as well. All within the same shared cosmology by implication since no seperation was mentioned. |
| see02-11-07, 11:54 PM | Okay, Wheel-users -- which Wheel cosmology do you use? There are five I can think of right offhand: 1) The 1978 Wheel. This is described in the 1e Player's Handbook and DMG. There is a single Prime Material Plane consisting of planets in infinite space, and a single Ethereal Plane. There are no paraelemental or quasielemental planes, no Plane of Shadow, and no Concordant Opposition. The Ethereal connects the Prime to the Inner Planes and does not touch the Astral or Outer Planes; the Astral connects the Prime to the Outer Planes and does not touch the Inner or Ethereal Planes. 2) The 1980 Wheel, as presented in 1e Deities & Demigods. This took the 1978 Wheel and added Concordant Opposition, the Plane of Shadow, and the paraelemental planes of Ice (Air & Water), Dust (Air & Fire), Heat (Earth & Fire), and Vapor (Water & Earth). 3) The 1987 Wheel. This is described in the first edition Manual of the Planes. It replaced three of the paraelemental planes with new ones, demoted Shadow to a demiplane, installed eight quasielemental planes, and added alternate Prime Material Planes with their own alternate Ethereal Planes. 4) The Spelljammer/Planescape Wheel. This one got rid of the alternate Primes and alternate Ethereals, turned the Prime into a phlogiston-filled plane with lots of crystal spheres, and added Sigil. 5) The 3e Wheel. The quasielemental and paraelemental planes are gone, the Ethereal now doesn't go anywhere, the Astral touches all the planes, Shadow is now a full plane that connects elsewhere, and alternate Material Planes are not accessible except through the Shadow. |
| Perun02-12-07, 01:50 AM | Okay, Wheel-users -- which Wheel cosmology do you use? 4) The Spelljammer/Planescape Wheel. This one got rid of the alternate Primes and alternate Ethereals, turned the Prime into a phlogiston-filled plane with lots of crystal spheres, and added Sigil. This one, or the Great Ring as it was called back in the day. |
| Shemeska the Marauder02-12-07, 02:19 AM | Okay, Wheel-users -- which Wheel cosmology do you use? 4) The Spelljammer/Planescape Wheel. This one got rid of the alternate Primes and alternate Ethereals, turned the Prime into a phlogiston-filled plane with lots of crystal spheres, and added Sigil. Even though I never played before 3e, I use this one which IMO was the most mature/complex iteration of the Wheel to date. However I include Shadow as a full pseudo-transitive plane (3e's one contribution to the cosmology, which almost makes up for the MotP's needless redactions in the name of simplicity), and I tend to gloss over spelljammer and have never directly used that aspect of the cosmology. |
| Gray Richardson02-12-07, 04:04 AM | That means we have Asmodeus and crew in the FR cosmology... but they are independant of the Asmodeus and crew of the Great Wheel. THAT (and everything else like it) is going too far with this "more planes" line of thinking.I don't know if you have ever seen the Mirror Mirror episode of Star Trek. Or any episode of the TV show Sliders. Or ever read any of the DC comics where they had Earth 2 Superman and the Alternate version of the Justice League called the Justice Society. But alternate versions of NPC's appearing in different universes is a long established trope in science fiction. It's something that I am very comfortable with, so I guess that doesn't bother me as much as it bothers you. Certainly I would think you are familiar with the concept of gods having avatars and aspects that might appear differently depending on what population of worshippers they are serving. It's not much different than that. Surely there is little problem in imagining a Greyhawk avatar of Asmodeus and a separate Faerun avatar of Asmodeus. I honestly don't see how this is going "too far", but I understand if it is not your cup of tea.I think the Great Tree was intended to separate the FR setting from the rest of the universe it was formerly attached to.I agree. The new scheme gives each setting it's own cosmology while still allowing travel between the worlds and cosmologies. Just as the WotC forums have boards for each setting but all the boards are connected through the same site. Members can visit just the Realms forums if they like, or branch out and visit the forums for other settings if they are interested. So too do DM's now have the option to focus just on the planes and gods and myths of their individual setting or to use the Shadow Plane (and other methods) to take the players to other planes and settings. Seems like an optimal solution to me.accessing planes outside the FR cosmology through the plane of shadow was thrown like an afterthoughtNot so. See pp.43 & 44 of the 3e Manual of the Planes, and especially the diagram on p.62 of the MotP. Not only will you find this notion in the 3e Manual of the Planes, but it was first introduced in the 1e Manual of the Planes which also talks of travel between Alternate realities and universes. The idea was clearly an integral part of the conception of the 3e approach to planar adventuring. And they are just building on an idea that has been around in D&D since early on. |
| Gray Richardson02-12-07, 04:32 AM | While Rip is a genius and I defer to him in most everything regarding the planes, I would like to point out that there is no inconsistency introduced by FC1 showing that Beshaba and Umberlee also have Greyhawk divine realms in the Abyss of the Great Wheel. FC1 is a core product, and as such it is only talking about Greyhawk's Abyss in the Great Wheel, it doesn't change anything with respect to FR continuity. We know that many gods of Toril have branched out to other universes long ago and have gone from single sphere deities to having a presence in other universes. Greyhawk (presumably) does not have an Ao to impose restrictions on interloper gods, so it is fairly easy for gods from other universes to get a divine realm in Greyhawk's outer planar real estate. Therefore, it is to be expected that Beshaba and Umberlee would establish divine realms in the Abyss (since the Great Wheel doesn't have a Barrens or a Fury's Heart) in order to service their Greyhawk petitioners. FC1 is merely confirming that Umberlee and Beshaba have a multi-spheric presence as deities in the Greyhawk setting. The fact that FC1 puts Beshaba and Umberlee in the Abyss, I don't see as conflicting with established FR lore in any way. Within the Great Tree cosmology you can still find them in the correct planes. But it is especially nice for their Torilian worshippers who travel to Greyhawk to be able to pray and get spells from them, even as far away as another universe. |
| Valgard02-12-07, 08:02 AM | I'm with Gray in this idea of Fiendish Codex I that material in a canon source doesn't change what belongs to a Campaign Setting World. Probably they took the old info of 2e to make that appendix that I consider a very good one. What I don't understand is this childish discussion you are having: How can you say (briefly) that "This exists because of this, and that doesn't because of that" When ALL OF THIS comes from the minds of some people who created them as they thought was good and funny. Obviously, it changed, why? I don't know, maybe ideas changed or, most probably, old people who ruled this gone and new people came. I think that the change was a bit forced but, personally and as other here have said, I think it was the best way they could. So, do what you like most, respect what others think what they like most, and be yourselves. It doesn't matter so much. |
| Stigger02-12-07, 09:11 AM | How exactly could there a right or wrong when it comes to a personal preference would be my question... |
| Occam02-12-07, 10:21 AM | Okay, Wheel-users -- which Wheel cosmology do you use? 4) The Spelljammer/Planescape Wheel. This one got rid of the alternate Primes and alternate Ethereals, turned the Prime into a phlogiston-filled plane with lots of crystal spheres, and added Sigil. That's the one! |
| Old Sparky02-12-07, 12:32 PM | I just hate arbitrary change for the sake of change... especially when the change is something so big. |
| Shemeska the Marauder02-12-07, 01:22 PM | I'm with Gray in this idea of Fiendish Codex I that material in a canon source doesn't change what belongs to a Campaign Setting World. Probably they took the old info of 2e to make that appendix that I consider a very good one. FC:I included Torillian gods in the Abyss intentionally, seemingly in disregard of 3e FR's claims of a seperate cosmology. The authors were not held to the same creative restrictions in place during early 3e that prevented the reference of anything not explicitely Greyhawk by name, and so they were free to present the Abyss as it has always been, including gods from Oerth, Toril, the various cultural pantheons, and others. You could present it as a migration of Torillian gods from the 3e cosmology into the Wheel, but that would be admittedly counter to what the book presents, which is that they never left the Wheel to go anywhere seperate in the first place because there isn't a seperation so far as FC:I is concerned. But again, you're perfectly free to use what you want in your home games. |
| MarkusTay6302-12-07, 02:48 PM | I just hate arbitrary change for the sake of change... especially when the change is something so big.Exactly so. An earlier poster postulated that the change came just because old timers left the company and new people were hired. To continue that line of thought, then it is quite possible that one miserable little kid who never liked the wheel grew up, got hired by WotC, did everything he possibly could (bought pastries and coffee every morning?) to be put in charge of the FR cosmology when 3e came out. Then that ONE person, to his own delight, destroyed EVERYTHING that millions of us have bought and paid for over the years? He probably called up his old gaming group afterwards (the one that kicked him out) and said Nyah-Nyah whilst sticking out his tongue. Of course, being on the phone, they couldn't see said tongue and thought it was a prank phone call and promptly hung up, leaving the miserable wretch to stew in his own juices. At least that what it looks like from OUR end. Anyway, as I have said before, the Cosmologies are just different ways to picture the same thing. There shouldn't be more then one of each Realm; as I myself have been told, Quantum physics has no place in fantasy. I shudder to think that there are an unlimited number of Asmodeuses (Asmodeie?) running around. What if someone like him decided to ally with half a million of his other selves and conquer all the universes? It would be the cross-time Kang Council all over again! (but worse) Besides, the Tree always existed, they just used to call it Yggdrasil. ;) |
| see02-12-07, 03:45 PM | Even though I never played before 3e, I use this one which IMO was the most mature/complex iteration of the Wheel to date. Heh, that's the way I feel about #3. I liked the alternate Primes and alternate Ethereals. Sigil was a worthwhile innovation, but I had the "Phlogiston prime" be just one of the alternate Primes -- there were other Primes with parallel versions of, say, the Realms not in a crystal sphere. (With 3e, I said I use the Tree for FR. And that's true insofar as I use the Tree as the "immediate cosmology". But I exploit the Shadow to link multiple alternate multiverses. Some people apparently dislike that, but I don't mind having countless Abysses; I was already playing with countless Primes and Ethereals back fifteen years ago.) |
| HVulpes02-12-07, 03:49 PM | Well, the fact is that we have no information about the reasons about the changes happening. This is why I wanted to hear the reasons from Sean Reynolds as he admits to being the main person for causing the switch or that is what I have heard. But I am starting to wonder if we should ask the designers and writers of the realms on Candlekeep. I can see some of the reason for the "It always was this way" answer given the way some people hate the ToT or any of the more recent RSE as answers for the major changes to the realms. But then we have complants in the opposite direction. The wheel and the Tree is like comparing a chocolate cake to a cupcake with a raincheck for a chocolate cake. Some people like to have the chocolate cake now and know that they have cake, but other want to enjoy the cupcake and hope that they can have their cake later. The fact of the matter is people will stick to the wheel while some will embrace the tree. It looks like the Canon realms will be expanding the tree for the near future at least. (Fiendish Codex aside. The rule is that New source trumphs old source, except for campaign specific elements that are required to be updated in a new campaign element. See Player's guide to Faerun for an example (Psionics, Epics, Planes, BoED, and BoVD were all updated for the realms in that book as well as the timeline.)) So what can we do? Try to help the new information and new ideas that we gain adapt into the system of our fellow realmanics. Grey could post his ideas for adventures for the tree and then Shemeska could post a few ideas to that one while building a version of that for the Wheel. Then vice versa as Shemeska could post a wheel based idea, which Grey could adapt to the tree and add to that ideas. (Just using Grey and Shemeska as examples as they are the major supportters of their systems (Tree and Wheel respectively).) We can either continue to complain and nag about which system is better than the other, or try to help each other improve the enjoyment of our favourite game world. I am willing to give it a try at least. Just some thoughts from my head. HVulpes |
| MarkusTay6302-12-07, 04:15 PM | The Forgotten Realms will do as they are told, and they will like it. If I want the setting to be invaded by Spelljamming giff mercenaries working with the Harmonium, or Dragon Overlords from Krynn, the Realms will thank me and ask for more. Feh on purity.God, I love this attitude! :D Like I keep saying, I could care less how anyone views the way the universe IS because it pretty much all works out the same in the end. So what if a FR prime has to trudge back to the Realms before going on to another plane? His Greyhawk and Dragonlance buddies will wait up for him (shaking their heads, of course). Its this whole 'alternate Hells' thing that makes me nuts. Multiple prime worlds is an established piece of lore, from ancient Faerie folklore to Stargate and Star Trek, to modern RPing and yes, even Quantum Physics. Alternate Hells though, is just insane. No one, religion folklore, or fantasy/Sci-fi stories has ever claimed that. It is a VERY weak 'patch'. I mean really, Satan TOTALLY loses all his coolness if there are hundreds of him. Then he just becomes another demon. No one is denying the fact of alternate prime worlds, but alternate Outer Planes is just plane silly (pun intended). Don't you think, with the size of the Egos gods and Arch-fiends sport, that they would go after their dopplegangers and there would be constant wars in the heavens? Mortals having other selves is one thing, but I don't think a God would tolerate it. Now, saying that they are all avatars of a SINGLE god makes so much more sense. Just my :twocents: @Old Sage - Sorry, I completely understand where you were coming from now. :( |
| Stigger02-12-07, 04:55 PM | I'd subscribe to the idea of multiple hells personally... the ability to concentrate and be aware across multiple instances of 'reality' just seems a bit much for your average barbazu... Saying that, deities could manage it quite easily, but that would justify the whole divine realm idea quite a bit if you step into a place between all those different layers of reality... Not so sure about planar lords though... I can see the idea of them attuning themselves to their respective layers making them aware across facets and enabling them to grant spells and such... but I don't see them as more powerful than deities (you're either a deity or you're not in my book, and while they could possibly qualify, I just don't see it as being logical, personally) so I can see where that wouldn't be the case... But... I can't see them going the highlander route if there are multiple hells. They certainly aren't aware of each other, and why would they travel between facets in the first place? If anything I could see them working with themselves, since they're the only being they can truly trust, but by that same token, you could perhaps screw yourself over like no one else... which while fun and amusing to think about, would negate the whole point of it really... so... yeah, a single planes would make more sense really, having rambled on and thought about it... |
| see02-12-07, 06:23 PM | Don't you think, with the size of the Egos gods and Arch-fiends sport, that they would go after their dopplegangers and there would be constant wars in the heavens? Well, of course, the overgods and the over-overgod (hey, Ao talked to somebody) can stop them. "As you try to pass through Shadow to the Tree Cosmos, Asmodeus, you are hurled back to your home plane. Words echo in your head like the burning, searing light of Mount Celestia, saying, "Next time, I'll turn you into a mortal elf before sending you back. Stay out!" But, let's say that doesn't happen, and Asmodeus-Wheel comes over to beat on Asmodeus-Tree on the Hells-Tree unstopped. Asmodeus-Tree responds by dumping a banishment just like he would if any of the Demogorgons came by in person, and watches Asmodeus-Wheel vanish back to Hells-Wheel. Except for the really stupid ones, powerful beings would quickly figure out that they've got enough trouble taking over their own cosmology, thanks, and we can bother with the rest later. I mean, really, what's more irritating? That there's a bunch of alternate Asmodeuses, each slightly different from you, in other alternate Hells in other alternate cosmologies? Or that Tiamat is around to make your rule over your native Hells less than absolute, and the demons in the Blood War are remaining unconquered, and some adventurers just offed one of your cults in Mystara? Anyway, YMMV. |
| ripvanwormer02-12-07, 07:42 PM | Its this whole 'alternate Hells' thing that makes me nuts. Multiple prime worlds is an established piece of lore, from ancient Faerie folklore to Stargate and Star Trek, to modern RPing and yes, even Quantum Physics. Alternate Hells though, is just insane. No one, religion folklore, or fantasy/Sci-fi stories has ever claimed that. It is a VERY weak 'patch'. Alternate Hells wouldn't be so bad if they were different in an interesting way, rather than just "one has gods, the other doesn't." If Mephistopheles was in charge of FR-Baator (with Baalzebul banished to the Blood Rift), that might make it worthwhile. Star Trek's mirror universe was interesting because it was different from the standard universe in a distinctive way. All the FR-Hells and FR-Abyss do is water down the uniqueness of the concept. Whether or not FR-Asmodeus is interested in battling core-Asmodeus, the fact that there are two Asmodei means neither is as impressive or intimidating as they would otherwise be, and defeating one of them isn't as fulfilling an accomplishment. It hurts the setting. |
| Gray Richardson02-12-07, 08:30 PM | While blandness of lore can certainly be a valid criticism, I don't find two Hells or two Abysses with slight differences necessarily less interesting. The mystery of how they came to be that way intrigues me. And the differences intrigue me. In Robert Heinlein's very fun book The Number of the Beast an inventor creates an alternate reality drive. One of the first realities they travel to seems exactly identical to their own. They can't figure out how the world is different, until they finally look in a dictionary and can't find the letter "J". All english words that would be spelled with "J" are spelled with an "i" instead. It was a fun little story plot, before they go on to visit worlds like Barsoom and Oz. I have long espoused the theory that Faerun's Hells and Abyss are similar because these two planes interloped from Greyhawk's Great Wheel. Just as the Seldarine and the Ordining and the Mordinsamman interloped to Faerun and myriad other worlds and are worshipped on each world in many different variations, some minor, some major. It is keeping with D&D tradition that many of Faerun's pantheons and planes are similar to Greyhawk's and other worlds. Krynn has a similar thing going on. It strikes me as a natural consequence of deific migration and interloping that you will see iterations of these ideals and planar environments in the cosmologies of multiple alternate material worlds. |
| WizO_Shadow02-12-07, 08:35 PM | :cleaning up: WizO_Shadow RPG Boards Team Cleanup done. Isles 4, 5, and 6 are now clean and browsers may safely browse the area. I would like it noted to everyone that just because a post got deleted doesn't mean that it violated the CoC. I removed the offending posts and the ... rebuttals, for the lack of a better word, because it's best just to move on as if the offending posts never happened. Thank you all for moving back onto topic so gracefully! |
| Azar_of_Faerun02-12-07, 10:17 PM | Deleted posts are deleeeeeeeeeeeted:D |
| Valgard02-13-07, 10:22 AM | Hey people! I think I've discovered why I like most the Tree rather than the Wheel! I had access to a version of Faiths & Avatars (you know, the not-so-old 2ed book about Forgotten Realms great powers) and as I was passing pages I was reading the home planes of every god. I think I like most the Tree because homeplanes in the Wheel for every deity are placed because of his alignment or nature. For example: Mystra is in Elysium because she is NG, Helm is in Mechanus because he is LN, and Mielikki lives in the Beastlands because she is a Good and a deity of the forests. On the other hand, the Tree places the deities in planes suited for them. For example: Mystra is in Dweomerheart because she is the goddess of magic, Helm is in House of the Triad because he is the Watcher, and Mielikki lives in House of Nature because she is Good and a deity of the forests. In other words: with the Wheel, THE GODS ARE ADAPTED TO THE COSMOLOGY and in the Tree, THE COSMOLOGY IS ADAPTED TO THE GODS. I think someone mentioned this idea before but now I have proven it myself. As I regard more important the nature of deities rather than the nature of the planes, it's obvious for me to like more the Tree. For all Planescape fans who, I suppose, love to adventure throughout the planes, the obvious for them is to like more the Wheel. In my personal opinion (again... I know I'm beginning to be boring) I like most that, for example, the Triad lives in their own plane (House of the Triad) and the Deities of Fury live in their own as well (Fury's Heart), and so on with all deities (Selune and all his stuff in Gates of the Moon, Bane and those under his command in the Barrens). Now I see obvious why no gods live in Hell or the Abyss. They should be related to devils or demons in some powerful way. |
| Gray Richardson02-13-07, 08:33 PM | Oh, I agree, this is a major attraction for me as well. The Tree is arranged thematically, kind of the way I have folders on my computer, the planes and gods are arranged by theme, culture and pantheon. It's feels more organic to me. The Wheel is arranged by alignment, which is nifty too, but it feels unnatural to me. Gods get scattered willy nilly by alignment all around the wheel, far from their companions and the rest of their pantheon. The Wheel certainly has many charms, but it always felt artificial and simplistic to me. I don't see people as defined so easily by the Cartesian coordinates of their moral and ethical natures. It seems about as natural as having people go to the plane of their Zodiac sign or the plane of their Myers-Briggs classification upon their death. Like I said, the Wheel has it's charms, don't get me wrong, but Valgard, you have identified what I see as one of the major points about the Wheel versus the Tree, which is that it seems to be more of an aesthetic choice which one you prefer. Wheel people seem to prefer sorting everyone by alignment as the primary defining characteristic of the soul, whereas, those who like the Tree seem to prefer organizing the afterlife socio-politically based on culture, history, race, pantheon affiliation and certain broad environmental themes (i.e. magic, nature, underdark, aquatic cultures, etc.). In that respect, for me at least, I think the Great Tree better represents such a complex and detailed setting as the Forgotten Realms, which has never been so alignment driven a setting as Gary Gygax's Greyhawk. Ed Greenwood and the other designers of the Realms have always seemed to appreciate that the Faerun and the characters and cultures in it are so much more complex and nuanced than can be represented by a simple alignment stat. The Wheel is an excellent cosmology for the Planescape setting and for strictly planar adventuring. But the Tree is a much better suited for Realms adventuring, where your primary focus will be on the Realms, with occasional jaunts into the planes. It's two different aesthetics, so it's not surprising to me how players with different gaming preferences would tend to fall into two different camps. |
| GothicDan02-13-07, 08:55 PM | And each divine realm of the ruling deity in question has the same alignment traits as the god ruling. So, what's the difference? |
| ripvanwormer02-13-07, 10:07 PM | There's no doubt that the Great Tree cosmology is built around the gods and the Great Wheel isn't. In the Great Wheel, the gods aren't the primary forces: philosophy is, particularly the nine alignments. This is the Great Wheel's strength and the Tree's weakness, in my estimation. The last thing I want is a cosmology built around a handful of gods. I want a complete multiverse where the players have a chance to make the difference, not a playground of the divine where only the gods can change the planes. I want a multiverse built around the forces of Law and Chaos, Good and Evil. Of course, I also want a multiverse where the Olympians and Aesir, the gods of Oerth and Krynn, are equally important and significant, where they can all interact with and enrich each other. I don't want a podunk Torilian ghetto. |
| Gray Richardson02-14-07, 03:00 AM | Well the Tree isn't based around the gods so much, it is based around philosophy and ideals as well. Or perhaps it is more appropriate to say worldviews and cultures. You have racial philosophies/worldviews of the elves (Arvandor), the dwarves (Dwarfhome), orcs (Nishrek), goblins (Clangor), dragons (Dragon Eyrie), and others. You have the philosophy of nature (House of Nature), and of nature's wrath (Fury's Heart). There is the philosophy of War (Warrior's Rest), insanity (Supreme Throne), hedonism (Brighwater), Magic (Dweomerheart) and Mind (House of Knowledge). Cultural worldviews such as the Mulhorandi (Heliopolis), aquatic cultures (Fated Depths), underdark cultures (Deep Caverns), and others. The Great Tree is organized around belief and ideals just as much as the Wheel, except not in a way that allows for easy graphing on a coordinate system. The ideals of the Tree cannot be so easily grouped along the countours of a ring or a grid. It requires a more organic, 3-dimensional metaphor. You are selling the Great Tree far too short if you claim it is built around the gods. The gods inhabit its branches like birds, but it is not built around them. The Great Tree is shaped by the beliefs, cultures, and histories of the souls who find their final rest among its many boughs and limbs. You say you want a cosmology built around the manichaean dualities of Good and Evil and Law and Chaos. Well, I respect that, but that is not for me. Give me cultures, give me history, I need a multitude of ideals in which to grow a multiverse. Alignment is only a very small portion of the concepts that interest me in a cosmologic schema. But conversely, I don't want my Forgotten Realms cosmology to have anything to do with the names and myths of earth cultures (with some canon exceptions). Names like Nirvana and Mechanus and Hades and Gehenna and Bytopia and Acheron and Ysgard are all as grating to me as the sound of fingernails on a chalkboard. They don't make sense in the context of the Realms. I don't want to see the Greek or Roman gods, or the Amerindian gods, or the Voodoo loas, or the Norse gods tip-toeing around the Great Tree. They have not historically interacted with Faerun and for me they don't have a place there. Nor do I want to run into Alice in Wonderland or the Mad Hatter, or Cinderella, or the Scarecrow or Toto or Batman or Gandalf or Budha or Elric in the outer planes of my Realms. My Tree will not shelter them. The Planescape setting may touch upon all the infinite realities in a psychedelic melting pot of all fictional worlds, but part of the fun for me is engrossing myself in the world of Toril and all its wonderful cultures. So yes, for my Forgotten Realms campaign, I prefer a cosmos that revolves around the cultures of Toril with as little pollution as can be managed from earth mythology and the gods and characters of other fictional settings. Which is my whole point. The Wheel appeals to those who enjoy organizing their worldview by alignment and who like playing in a hodgepodge setting spanning multiple game worlds in a schizophrenic free-for-all. The Tree appeals to those who appreciate a less euclidean view of belief, and yet enjoy a more Faerun-o-centric cosmos that honors the spirit of the complex and intricately crafted fictional world in which they game. It all breaks down to aesthetics. There is nothing wrong with either preference. Use whichever one appeals to you. Options are empowering. Choices are good. And I choose the Great Tree. :g: |
| BadCatMan02-14-07, 03:15 AM | Here! Here! Well said Mr Richardson. I wonder if gods can have multiple realms, like a place of work, a home, a holiday home, a hideout, etc. One could be on the old Wheel location, the other on the new Tree (for those who want to combine them). |
| Valgard02-14-07, 07:43 AM | And each divine realm of the ruling deity in question has the same alignment traits as the god ruling. So, what's the difference?I think that seeing Mystra (NG), Azuth (LN) and Velsharoon (NE) in the same plane would be funny for you. Imagine a journey where you begin in a Good Divine Realm and finsihing in an Evil one. Just because the Cosmology is oriented towards fields of culture, it doesn't mean a god cannot adapt his/her home to his/her suitment (I don't know if it's called like this). |
| Valgard02-14-07, 07:45 AM | The Wheel is arranged by alignment, which is nifty too, but it feels unnatural to me. Gods get scattered willy nilly by alignment all around the wheel, far from their companions and the rest of their pantheon. The Wheel certainly has many charms, but it always felt artificial and simplistic to me. I don't see people as defined so easily by the Cartesian coordinates of their moral and ethical natures. It seems about as natural as having people go to the plane of their Zodiac sign or the plane of their Myers-Briggs classification upon their death.You just read my thoughts... or maybe I read yours. |
| Valgard02-14-07, 07:53 AM | There's no doubt that the Great Tree cosmology is built around the gods and the Great Wheel isn't. In the Great Wheel, the gods aren't the primary forces: philosophy is, particularly the nine alignments. This is the Great Wheel's strength and the Tree's weakness, in my estimation. The last thing I want is a cosmology built around a handful of gods. I want a complete multiverse where the players have a chance to make the difference, not a playground of the divine where only the gods can change the planes. I want a multiverse built around the forces of Law and Chaos, Good and Evil. Of course, I also want a multiverse where the Olympians and Aesir, the gods of Oerth and Krynn, are equally important and significant, where they can all interact with and enrich each other. I don't want a podunk Torilian ghetto.I don't think like you, but you are right. If you want an interaction between gods and pantheons of many and diversed cultures, the Wheel is probably a good cosmology to place them. But I prefer, instead, to place every world in a different cosmology and travel through the Plane of Shadow. This comes because if Pelor and Lathander are in the same plane, why does no one worship Pelor on Toril and no one worships Lathander on Oerth, if both deities should ally to make their goals? I just prefer to make them in sepparate groups and even they don't know each other. |
| GothicDan02-14-07, 08:55 AM | I think that seeing Mystra (NG), Azuth (LN) and Velsharoon (NE) in the same plane would be funny for you. Imagine a journey where you begin in a Good Divine Realm and finsihing in an Evil one. Just because the Cosmology is oriented towards fields of culture, it doesn't mean a god cannot adapt his/her home to his/her suitment (I don't know if it's called like this). I'm not sure I get exactly what you're saying here, but I'll try to reply anyway. Seeing these deities in the same plane wouldn't be funny for me, because they all represent aspects of a single theme: magic. Their homes, however, I think are a reflection of who they really are, in spirit/heart (alignment). Home is where your heart is, after all. |
| Valgard02-14-07, 09:53 AM | I'm not sure I get exactly what you're saying here, but I'll try to reply anyway. Seeing these deities in the same plane wouldn't be funny for me, because they all represent aspects of a single theme: magic. Their homes, however, I think are a reflection of who they really are, in spirit/heart (alignment). Home is where your heart is, after all. I admit I didn't use the correct words... maybe I should say "curious" rather than "funny" (I was trying to be a bit sarcastic, but as English is not my home language, maybe I was confusing all the thing). In this example, while all deities are deities of magic (and they all are in the same plane) are still of different alignments, and even opposed ones. Simply, you asked before the difference (I suppose between the Wheel and the Tree) if deities are of a specific alignment and their divine realms reflect this... well, in the Tree, they are in the same plane, while in the Wheel are extremely far far way. |
| Ateth_Istarlin02-14-07, 10:38 AM | I prefer to use the Great Wheel, if I need to have an adventure take place in the planes. (Tho' it's probably because I've been gaming since '79 & don't like to change once I've got something that works!) :D |
| GothicDan02-14-07, 11:12 AM | In this example, while all deities are deities of magic (and they all are in the same plane) are still of different alignments, and even opposed ones. Simply, you asked before the difference (I suppose between the Wheel and the Tree) if deities are of a specific alignment and their divine realms reflect this... well, in the Tree, they are in the same plane, while in the Wheel are extremely far far way. Planes are infinite. Point X to point Y on Dweomerheart is just as far as it is from Dweomerheart to Gehenna, barring the fact that divinities can freely travel throughout the multiverse with little difficulty (provided that there are no forces barring their path). I really don't think Velsharoon would just meander through Dweomerheart to sit down and have a talk with Mystra. He would appear in a burst of necrotic energy and rotting flesh before her. Where he's transporting from really doesn't matter. |
| ripvanwormer02-14-07, 03:44 PM | This comes because if Pelor and Lathander are in the same plane, why does no one worship Pelor on Toril and no one worships Lathander on Oerth, if both deities should ally to make their goals? Gods will always be more popular in some areas than others. Tempus is the patron of the northern barbarians, for example. Why isn't Talos their primary patron instead? Because they prefer Tempus. This is even more true on Oerth, where most gods have specific ethnic backgrounds and are native to the sphere. Lathander isn't worshiped on Oerth for the same reason the Scarlet Brotherhood doesn't worship Pelor; because he has no history in the cultures there. They don't worship Allitur in the Dominion of the Sea Barons because they don't have Flan ancestry in that nation. Allitur is still definitely a god native to their cosmology, but everyone can't worship every god simultaneously. There's also the matter of native gods defending their turf. From the Ashes suggests that Loviatar is trying to send her minions to Oerth to gain power there, but a native god, Telchur, has sealed the portal she seeks to use. On Toril, though it's always been more of a mongrel world with new gods arriving from elsewhere regardless of the history of its peoples, there's no dilemma; Ao is the gatekeeper of the world, and he only permits a few gods to emigrate in at a time. Pelor cannot be worshiped in Faerun because Lathander already controls that portfolio (although Pelor could perhaps find a niche as the god of the noonday sun). If you get rid of Ao, or use him less, then yes - there's nothing stopping Pelor from sending minions in to recruit priests and try and get control of the Noonday Sun portfolio. This might be an interesting plotline. Such things have happened on Toril before. |
| Old Sparky02-14-07, 05:38 PM | I don't know if you have ever seen the Mirror Mirror episode of Star Trek. Or any episode of the TV show Sliders. Or ever read any of the DC comics where they had Earth 2 Superman and the Alternate version of the Justice League called the Justice Society. But alternate versions of NPC's appearing in different universes is a long established trope in science fiction. It's something that I am very comfortable with, so I guess that doesn't bother me as much as it bothers you. The thing is, I'm not playing a DC Comics (or Sliders) RPG... I'm playing D&D, and I'm not really intetrested in alternate realities that mirror "the mainstream" with mostly similar content with some differences. In fact, that is the biggest turn off of the whole concept of using the Plane of Shadow to visit alternate realities... it sounds too similar to the crapfest of the comics. Within the comic books themselves? Sure, I can tolerate that kind of sci-fi in that context, but anywhere else kills the setting for me. D&D isn't my idea of the sort of science fiction --its fantasy. Certainly I would think you are familiar with the concept of gods having avatars and aspects that might appear differently depending on what population of worshippers they are serving. It's not much different than that. Surely there is little problem in imagining a Greyhawk avatar of Asmodeus and a separate Faerun avatar of Asmodeus. I honestly don't see how this is going "too far", but I understand if it is not your cup of tea.I agree. I have no problems with different avatars appearing in each world... the problem is, this new cosmology junk isn't representing two (or more) different avatars of the same entity in the way you describe. Its Asmodeus and any "avatars" he has in Greyhawk, and its Asmodeus and any "avatars" he has again in FR. The two are not likely to ever meet even if they are somehow aware of each other's existance. The new scheme gives each setting it's own cosmology while still allowing travel between the worlds and cosmologies. They didn't NEED a new cosmology to keep FR separate yet linked. They could have just used the Wheel as it was and renamed planes to FR-specific references... and omitted references to "foreign" gods and concepts. The Great Wheel was a buffet, use what you like and skip over the rest. Its not that those planes don't exist or that they aren't inhabitted, they just wouldn't need detailing for a FR-specific campaign. What then, if not other gods from other worlds, are in those planes? Just monsters would work fine. Just as the WotC forums have boards for each setting but all the boards are connected through the same site. Members can visit just the Realms forums if they like, or branch out and visit the forums for other settings if they are interested. Totally irrelevant analogy. Thanks for including it, but I find the comparison useless in conveying your point. So too do DM's now have the option to focus just on the planes and gods and myths of their individual setting or to use the Shadow Plane (and other methods) to take the players to other planes and settings. Seems like an optimal solution to me.Not so. See pp.43 & 44 of the 3e Manual of the Planes, and especially the diagram on p.62 of the MotP. Not only will you find this notion in the 3e Manual of the Planes, but it was first introduced in the 1e Manual of the Planes which also talks of travel between Alternate realities and universes. The idea was clearly an integral part of the conception of the 3e approach to planar adventuring. And they are just building on an idea that has been around in D&D since early on. More alternate reality crap. Great, its there if I want it... in the new garbage cosmology, its now necessary. Absolute garbage. But again, you're perfectly free to use what you want in your home games. True, and I do... but it now requires me to make the extra effort of reading through 3.x references to the planes in FR and converting back to the way things officially were and should be. The Tree should have been presented as an alternate "cosmology lite" in a Web Enhancement or a Dragon Magazine article, not as the new official cosmology that has always been when most people KNOW that isn't the case. We can either continue to complain and nag about which system is better than the other, or try to help each other improve the enjoyment of our favourite game world. I am willing to give it a try at least. Honestly, the best way I can think of to help improve the current system is to rally enough support AGAINST it until WotC feels compelled to admit the mistake and claim that the Tree cosmology is nothing more than a misperception amongst sages of Faerun. Like I keep saying, I could care less how anyone views the way the universe IS because it pretty much all works out the same in the end. So what if a FR prime has to trudge back to the Realms before going on to another plane? I care because its a stupid idea that makes no sense. Planar travellers have been portrayed in the past as travelling from one plane to another without returning to the Prime. Now they must... why?? No explanation, just this is the way its always been. Its wrong and its plain idiotic. In Robert Heinlein's very fun book The Number of the Beast an inventor creates an alternate reality drive. One of the first realities they travel to seems exactly identical to their own. They can't figure out how the world is different, until they finally look in a dictionary and can't find the letter "J". All english words that would be spelled with "J" are spelled with an "i" instead. It was a fun little story plot, before they go on to visit worlds like Barsoom and Oz. More alternate reality crap that I have no interest in seeing in any way, shape, or form as part of my FR D&D game. I have long espoused the theory that Faerun's Hells and Abyss are similar because these two planes interloped from Greyhawk's Great Wheel. Just as the Seldarine and the Ordining and the Mordinsamman interloped to Faerun and myriad other worlds and are worshipped on each world in many different variations, some minor, some major. Espouse all you like. The theory leaves me feeling little more than "meh." It is keeping with D&D tradition that many of Faerun's pantheons and planes are similar to Greyhawk's and other worlds. Krynn has a similar thing going on. It strikes me as a natural consequence of deific migration and interloping that you will see iterations of these ideals and planar environments in the cosmologies of multiple alternate material worlds. WHAT?! What has tradition got to do with anything when you are discussing throwing out a tradition like the FR being part of the standard cosmology?? Tradition... sorry Gray, but in my eyes, a comment like that saps credibility from everything you say. In other words: with the Wheel, THE GODS ARE ADAPTED TO THE COSMOLOGY and in the Tree, THE COSMOLOGY IS ADAPTED TO THE GODS. I think someone mentioned this idea before but now I have proven it myself. As I regard more important the nature of deities rather than the nature of the planes, it's obvious for me to like more the Tree. For all Planescape fans who, I suppose, love to adventure throughout the planes, the obvious for them is to like more the Wheel. Actually, I hate the Planescape setting. Never liked it one bit. To me, though, Planescape is just an embellishment on the Great Wheel... you don't need it, but some people like it and want it. I never needed to throw words like "berk" and "deadbook" into every planar creature's vocabulary to make the planes more interesting. So yes, for my Forgotten Realms campaign, I prefer a cosmos that revolves around the cultures of Toril with as little pollution as can be managed from earth mythology and the gods and characters of other fictional settings. As I said, they did not need to drastically redesign the cosmology to achieve this effect. Omission of the "pollution" and renaming planes to fit the FR scheme would have accomplished the same thing without changing the nature of the planes themselves or countering previous editions of planes related content or contradicting old school gamers' ongoing campaigns. Which is my whole point. The Wheel appeals to those who enjoy organizing their worldview by alignment and who like playing in a hodgepodge setting spanning multiple game worlds in a schizophrenic free-for-all. The Tree appeals to those who appreciate a less euclidean view of belief, and yet enjoy a more Faerun-o-centric cosmos that honors the spirit of the complex and intricately crafted fictional world in which they game. Yes, you have succinctly summed up why the wheel appeals to me. You have summed it up wrong, but you have summed it up nonetheless. Thanks for playing, no prize for you. Here! Here! Well said Mr Richardson. Yes, yes... well said indeed. However well he says it, though, it does not diminish my hatred of continuity-breaking arbitrary change for the sake of change. I prefer to use the Great Wheel, if I need to have an adventure take place in the planes. (Tho' it's probably because I've been gaming since '79 & don't like to change once I've got something that works!) THAT, my friend, is exactly what drives my dislike of the new... the old thing works just fine and did not need to be replaced. The new thing breaks --for many of us-- more than it "fixes" (fix being defined as separating FR's planes to make them more FR-centric). |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-14-07, 06:32 PM | 14 WHEEL I love the wheel and always have, because I love Plane Scape. When the Tree came out I just assumed that’s how people on Faerun understood the mulitverse. Remember in plane scape people that lived on the planes always referred to Primes (people that live on the material plane) as a little backwards and ignorant. In my Realms campaign the players are taught the Tree is the way things work, but when they get out there on the planes they find out that everything they have learned about the Gods and the Cosmology is a little off. They slowly figure out that the Multiverse is a wheel. It confuses the hell out of them and is bunches of fun for me. As a matter of fact it gave one of our priests a crises of faith during one planer jaunt when he found out that Helm actually lives on Mechanus and not Mount Celestia. Then he got squashed by the MODRON march. It was a hard planer trip for out priest.:D :D |
| MarkusTay6302-14-07, 07:27 PM | Now that was ANNOYING! :rolleyes: No need to get nasty here peeps, everyone can use what they like, no one is twisting anyone's arm here. To be honest, I lost track of the voting mid-way through pg.3 because of all the arguing. I would be more comfortable with everyone trying to figure out how they both work together then this either/or bickering. People are going to use with they like, regardless of what anyone else thinks. I just don't like the Plane of Shadow cop-out, I'd prefer the Ethereal to link all the planes (and double as the Phlogiston, which is how I always worked it). We always had the near Ethereal (The wood between the worlds, the mittlemarch, space WITHIN a sphere) and the Far Ethereal (other worlds, times, area outside a sphere). I don't understand why the plane of Shadow was suddenly promoted, and the Ethereal was downgraded. I'm starting to picture the tree as another plane on the wheel at this point, perhaps growing out of Concordat Opposition (Yes, I'm really old school). Since the true neutral plane (The Outlands) is infinite, whose to say that it doesn't have a seperate plane extending off of it in every direction for each sphere? The Alignment planes would still be there, but you can have trees and giant turtles and whatever else co-existing, all linked to the Outlands. Then each plane (The Tree) would have lots of little 'bubble' domains on it, just like the the tree is represented in FR. However, only world-specific settings would be located on each of these 'new' planes, Hell would still be it's own plain on the Wheel, along with Arboria, Mechanus, Limbo, etc... Just figure Cynosure is located in the outlands (where it belongs) and the Tree 'grows-up' from there. Now everyone can be happy and we don't need multiple Asmodeuses. So now the wheel has a bunch of spikey looking planes jutting out of it all over the place, big deal, it was looking a little too flat to me anyway. I just took another look at it's latest iteraction in the MotP, and it really doesn't look so much like a wheel anymore anyway, it's looking more like an icecream cone (or a really fat hubcap). I do like the idea someone mentioned earlier, with seperate DIFFERENT hells for each world, but I would do it more like layers - The first layer of hell would be for Faerun, second layer for Oerth, etc... that might be workable, with a different Arch-fiend in charge of each layer assigned to each world. Then Asmodeus could just rulle them all, and punish those that aren't making headway on their perspective planets. There has got to be a way of making it all work together, we don't need to pick and choose, just make 'alternate realities' only for the Prime material, thats my only concession. We can create all the outer planes we want without having to clone them. Actually, I hate the Planescape setting. Never liked it one bit. To me, though, Planescape is just an embellishment on the Great Wheel... you don't need it, but some people like it and want it. I never needed to throw words like "berk" and "deadbook" into every planar creature's vocabulary to make the planes more interesting.You are probably the first person to ever alienate Shem and Gray at the same time. Congratulations. :cheer: |
| Gray Richardson02-14-07, 08:39 PM | You are probably the first person to ever alienate Shem and Gray at the same time. Congratulations. :cheer:Oh never fear. I am not alienated. I personally like Old Sparky, even though I may not agree with his opinion. ;) I know that he will never be persuaded. Sparks is not really my audience. When grumpy, grumbling grognards attack the Tree, I simply try to provide what I hope is a rational and polite counterpoint highlighting the Great Tree's better qualities. The people on these boards tend to be very intelligent, perceptive and creative folks. They deserve to hear both sides. They can listen to each point of view and decide for themselves which cosmology best fits their gaming needs. :g: |
| ripvanwormer02-14-07, 10:02 PM | You are probably the first person to ever alienate Shem and Gray at the same time. Congratulations. :cheer: I think Shem and Gray agree with each other more than they disagree. They represent antithetical positions on the Tree issue, and on the subject of how old yugoloths are relative to the other fiends (Gray likes to tie the in-game chronology to their metagame origins), but little else. |
| see02-15-07, 03:01 AM | They didn't NEED a new cosmology to keep FR separate yet linked. They could have just used the Wheel as it was and renamed planes to FR-specific references... and omitted references to "foreign" gods and concepts. The Great Wheel was a buffet, use what you like and skip over the rest. Its not that those planes don't exist or that they aren't inhabitted, they just wouldn't need detailing for a FR-specific campaign. What then, if not other gods from other worlds, are in those planes? Just monsters would work fine. <SNIP> More alternate reality crap. Great, its there if I want it... in the new garbage cosmology, its now necessary. Absolute garbage. You're trying to have your cake, and eat it, too. A version of the Great Wheel that doesn't have the Greyhawk gods in it (as you suggest in the first bit there) would inherently be an alternate reality parallel from a Great Wheel where the Greyhawk Gods are present. Both Bane and Hextor were home on Acheron. If they aren't on the same Acheron, then they must be on almost-identical parallel Acherons, whether or not you can get from one Acheron to the other through indirect means. WotC can print an Outer Planes free of non-FR gods, or print single set of Outer Planes with no alternate Outer Planes. It can't do both. If a Greyhawk god kills Asmodeus in the Greyhawk setting, either the FR's Asmodeus is dead, or the FR Asmodeus was a different but very similar ruler of a different but very similar Hell. |
| Ryltar Swordsong02-15-07, 03:50 AM | True, and I do... but it now requires me to make the extra effort of reading through 3.x references to the planes in FR and converting back to the way things officially were and should be. The Tree should have been presented as an alternate "cosmology lite" in a Web Enhancement or a Dragon Magazine article, not as the new official cosmology that has always been when most people KNOW that isn't the case. I was behind you 100% until... Actually, I hate the Planescape setting. Never liked it one bit. Other than that, well said. |
| Gray Richardson02-15-07, 08:53 AM | They didn't NEED a new cosmology to keep FR separate yet linked. They could have just used the Wheel as it was and renamed planes to FR-specific references... and omitted references to "foreign" gods and concepts. The Great Wheel was a buffet, use what you like and skip over the rest. Its not that those planes don't exist or that they aren't inhabitted, they just wouldn't need detailing for a FR-specific campaign. What then, if not other gods from other worlds, are in those planes? Just monsters would work fine. {...} As I said, they did not need to drastically redesign the cosmology to achieve this effect. Omission of the "pollution" and renaming planes to fit the FR scheme would have accomplished the same thing without changing the nature of the planes themselves or countering previous editions of planes related content or contradicting old school gamers' ongoing campaigns.Interesting. Well, this approach was specifically considered and rejected by the designers. When the 3e game designers decided that all settings would have their own cosmology, the FR team considered creating an FR version of the Ring and thought there would be no point. It would have just been an FR clone of Greyhawk's wheel, and would likely not have pleased the Planescape fans any better. They opted for a different cosmology, something unique to Faerun. I suspect they were correct and that many of the diehard Wheelies who get upset about the change to the Great Tree cosmology would have railed just as visciously against an FR version of the Wheel. But as a thought experiment, I would love to see you flesh out your proposal, Sparks. I would be very interested in seeing your version of an FR Wheel, with all the names changed, the Greek and Hebrew mythology names removed and whatever other changes you think appropriate that would make the Wheel feel Realmsian? Please post away! Maybe your Realms Wheel idea could be a bridge for some fans back to the Great Wheel cosmology for their home games. Maybe WotC will see it and be influenced by it in the decisions they make for 4th edition. I am very curious, Sparky: If you had been the designer for 3rd edition, what would your Realms Wheel have looked like? |
| ripvanwormer02-15-07, 03:21 PM | You're trying to have your cake, and eat it, too. No, you misread what Sparky wrote. He didn't suggest that the FR cosmology have no Greyhawk gods - he merely suggested that the Greyhawk gods be ignored in FR materials. |
| MarkusTay6302-15-07, 03:34 PM | So the Great Wheel becomes like a cosmic buffet, where you can take what you like and ignore the rest. Sounds reasonable. Then I guess the Tree would be the 'salad bar'? :D |
| see02-15-07, 08:59 PM | No, you misread what Sparky wrote. He didn't suggest that the FR cosmology have no Greyhawk gods - he merely suggested that the Greyhawk gods be ignored in FR materials. Like I said, Greyhawk god kills Asmodeus on a joint Nine Hells. How do you explain the change in Hell in FR products without referencing the existence of the Greyhawk gods on the planes? |
| ripvanwormer02-15-07, 09:31 PM | Like I said, Greyhawk god kills Asmodeus on a joint Nine Hells. How do you explain the change in Hell in FR products without referencing the existence of the Greyhawk gods on the planes? Actually, something like that already happened. Orcus died at the hands of Kiaransalee. Tome of Magic, whose authors didn't want to mention Kiaransalee by name because she's non-core, simply rewrote the story somewhat so that they didn't need to identify his assailant. They said he was killed by a bolt of negative energy - which may indeed be what Kiaransalee wielded, but they didn't mention that. |
| Shemeska the Marauder02-15-07, 10:41 PM | I think Shem and Gray agree with each other more than they disagree. They represent antithetical positions on the Tree issue, and on the subject of how old yugoloths are relative to the other fiends (Gray likes to tie the in-game chronology to their metagame origins), but little else. Rip's probably right on this. And if Gray happened to show up to GenCon, I'd probably buy him some booze to let him know that I'm still cool with him. :) But I'll still do little things like getting Cynosure and the Faerunian pantheon mentioned as existing within the Wheel. *wink* |
| Old Sparky02-16-07, 01:34 AM | Oh never fear. I am not alienated. I personally like Old Sparky, even though I may not agree with his opinion. ;) I know that he will never be persuaded. Sparks is not really my audience.Sadly, I don't think I'm WotC's audience, either. :rolleyes: When grumpy, grumbling grognards attack the Tree, I simply try to provide what I hope is a rational and polite counterpoint highlighting the Great Tree's better qualities. The people on these boards tend to be very intelligent, perceptive and creative folks. They deserve to hear both sides. They can listen to each point of view and decide for themselves which cosmology best fits their gaming needs. :g: He's absolutely right. I am such a grognard. You're trying to have your cake, and eat it, too. A version of the Great Wheel that doesn't have the Greyhawk gods in it (as you suggest in the first bit there) would inherently be an alternate reality parallel from a Great Wheel where the Greyhawk Gods are present. Both Bane and Hextor were home on Acheron. If they aren't on the same Acheron, then they must be on almost-identical parallel Acherons, whether or not you can get from one Acheron to the other through indirect means. You missed it. $1 gets you another 3 throws at the grognard in the dunktank. I was behind you 100% until... << insert Sparky's "I hate Planescape comment here >> Other than that, well said. Thanks. Its not really a bad setting in my eyes, I just couldn't stand the uniform slang that pervades every plane and every planar being's speech regardless of alignment, affiliation, or any other broad manner of distinguishing people. That, and the whole "there are no stats" at all for the Lady of Pain because she's just that darned mysterious. No, you misread what Sparky wrote. He didn't suggest that the FR cosmology have no Greyhawk gods - he merely suggested that the Greyhawk gods be ignored in FR materials. You get it. :cool: Rip's probably right on this. And if Gray happened to show up to GenCon, I'd probably buy him some booze to let him know that I'm still cool with him. :) You know, in spite of my grumbly demeanor, I'd probably drink with most of you... and I'm not just saying that because I'm some kind of drunkard that would drink with anybody. That just makes it easier. |
| Gray Richardson02-16-07, 02:06 AM | if Gray happened to show up to GenCon, I'd probably buy him some booze to let him know that I'm still cool with him. :)I hope to make it some day. Gen Con sounds like a blast. And I would certainly throw back a few with you Shemster. :pint: You too Sparkmeister-K ;) |
| MarkusTay6302-16-07, 03:13 AM | Awwwwwwwww :bravo: Its a regular love-in around here. ;) At least we can agree to disagree. I started to do my own take on the cosmology in Photoshop. I got as far as pasting a giant cosmic donut onto a starry background and called it quits. I just don't have the next dozen months or so to complete something that difficult. Maps are easy, 3-dimensional space is a nightmare (especially when you trying to get it to represent 11-dimensional space). Ah well, I tried. The giant space donut looked kinda cool though........ :D |
| Old Sparky02-16-07, 07:41 AM | mmmmm.... donut. |
| doctord02-16-07, 02:40 PM | In the group I DM for I have a player who is so pro Forgotten Realms that if we did not use the Forgotten Realms he was not going to play. He wanted to know what the Cosmology was before we started. I was planning on using Mechanus at some point so I needed a way to bridge both cosmologies. If my players want to visit anyplace in the FR Cosmology they use the tree. If they want to visit anyplace beyond that they have two choices. Either have to go to a plane shared between the two and then move onto the wheel, or enter what I refer to as the Deep Astral. The Deep Astral connects to all the other Astral Planes. It is also home to the Githyanki. I placed them there so there are not multiple Lich Queens. |
| MarkusTay6302-16-07, 03:20 PM | Nice solution, having to travel through 'shared planes' to get between the two. Much more convenient then traveling to an alternate Prime and then entering the cosmology (Overworld? Outsider lands? I find the use of that word un-wieldy there). I have seen, and had to deal with, die-hard purists - my heart goes out to you. My old Greyhawk campaign, that I ran for 10 years, had to finally be killed off because of the 'insidious' call of the Realms. Now that I love the Realms a new group of youngsters is pining for Eberron. I shall do what I can to keep the insolent curs at bay. :duel: |
| Valgard02-16-07, 03:35 PM | ASPECTS OF LEVISTUS IN FAERÛN Levistus isn’t very well known on Faerûn, though the archduke is working to change that. Aspects of Levistus, therefore, are rare. Consider sending your PCs to Gehenna or the Nine Hells if you want to introduce them to an aspect of Levistus.After all "XXX IN FAERÛN"s paragraphs in Monster Manuals III and IV have made use of the Tree Cosmology, Robert Wiese here heats the discussion up with this little "error" or "rebellion" :detect: ... Is Mr. Wiese a Great Wheel fan, so, MarkusTay, you'll have to add a vote to the Wheel for him, defying all rules stablished in the 3.5 edition of Forgotten Realms games? who knows?... :incog: Do you have any comments? |
| Gray Richardson02-16-07, 03:44 PM | I wouldn't put too much stock in the reference. Designers of Core books (which assume the core Greyhawk setting's Great Wheel cosmology) can't be expected to be too familiar with the Great Tree or even Eberron's cosmology, and thus can be expected to slip up from time to time. Remember, that if you travel through the Plane of Shadow, you can still get to Greyhawk from Faerun, and from Greyhawk you can still get to Gehenna and other Great Wheel planes. So, while a stretch, the reference is not too far off base. |
| Valgard02-16-07, 04:05 PM | I'm not trying to be drag with you, Gray, I like you, but look at this: Designers of Core books (...) can't be expected to be too familiar with the Great Tree or even Eberron's cosmology ASPECTS OF LEVISTUS IN EBERRON Levistus’s realm of Stygia is located on Risia, the Plain of Ice, and aspects of Levistus exist on the frozen plains with ice devils and other creatures. Risia is coterminus with Eberron once every five years, so the appearance of aspects of Levistus is rare. Once they arrive, they never leave. Instead, they go about their business forming alliances and preparing for Levistus’s eventual release.ASPECTS OF GLASYA IN EBERRON Glasya’s realm is on the plane of Shavarath, and that is where most aspects of Glasya are encountered. Glasya has some cults on Khorvaire, and aspects of Glasya could be encountered where one is based. And follows with Baalzebul and Asmodeus, to say the least. So, I don't think Mr. Wiese is not familiar with those cosmologies... but who knows? Remember, that if you travel through the Plane of Shadow, you can still get to Greyhawk from Faerun, and from Greyhawk you can still get to Gehenna and other Great Wheel planes. So, while a stretch, the reference is not too far off base.A DM must have many wishes to put an aspect of Levistus in her games to make his/her PCs to travel through the plane of Shadow to Gehenna to meet one. Everywhere says that's a long and dangerous journey... but yes, you're right, it's possible, simply I found it very curious and gracious. And finally... I've said this 'cos I'm trying to make this discussion to go longer... I'm liking it very much... let's follow on! :bounce: |
| MarkusTay6302-16-07, 04:37 PM | You know, looking at that offensive page (;) ) 257 of the FRCS, I don't see a tree at all, it looks more like a VERY ugly spider with too many legs. More of Lolth's doing, Hmmmm? :D Looking at THAT, which is nothing more then a glorified flow-chart, I feel even more strongly that the Wheel is the over-cosmology. Toril Doesn't have it's own cosmology, Ao has simply placed direct connections to each godly domain (and some elemental/energy palnes). To a mortal from the prime, this is the EASIEST way to get access to their gods. Normally, all mortals only need to go to the Outer Planes to find their gods, so Ao has simply given them a short cut. This was most likely an after-effect of the ToT, because the Gods must now keep a closer conection to their mortal worshippers. Ao put in the new 'conduits, and erased all previous planar knowledge (except perhaps for a select few, like Mystra's chosen). Mortals think this is the main way in, but it is in essence just a 'back-door'. Given enough time and effort, I'm sure they could find their way out the 'other-end' and end up on the Wheel. :lop: What are your thoughts on this concept? |
| Shemeska the Marauder02-16-07, 04:39 PM | After all "XXX IN FAERÛN"s Gehenna. Faerun. *slow, wide, 'lothy grin* Such a thing of beauty. |
| MarkusTay6302-16-07, 05:04 PM | Gehenna. Faerun. *slow, wide, 'lothy grin* Such a thing of beauty.So, do you agree with me then, that the tree is nothing more then a simplistic way of veiwing Ao's new conduits? BTW, as the our resident Planescape expert, is there any name for that spikey thing that sticks out of the middle off the Outlands and 'almost' touches Sigil? :confused: |
| Perun02-16-07, 05:14 PM | Toril Doesn't have it's own cosmology, Ao has simply placed direct connections to each godly domain (and some elemental/energy palnes). To a mortal from the prime, this is the EASIEST way to get access to their gods. Normally, all mortals only need to go to the Outer Planes to find their gods, so Ao has simply given them a short cut. This was most likely an after-effect of the ToT, because the Gods must now keep a closer conection to their mortal worshippers. Ao put in the new 'conduits, and erased all previous planar knowledge (except perhaps for a select few, like Mystra's chosen). Mortals think this is the main way in, but it is in essence just a 'back-door'. This is pretty much what I've been thinking all along. Because of the intimate ties between the Torilian powers and Toril itself (or, more precisely, their worshippers on Toril), the powers' realms have a stronger connection to the Prime (or Realmspace, or Abeir-Toril, or whatever term you wish to use). The result is the ability to plane hop directly between Toril and a power's realm. For example, a cleric wants to visit Mystra's realm, Dweomerheart (located on Elysium's second layer, Eronia). Normally, he'd have to plane shift to Amoria, Elysium's topmost layer, and then find a portal to Eronia, and only then could he actually reach Dweomerheart. However, on Toril, the cleric could just plane shift directly to Dweomerheart. In case of multiple deities listed as having a single realm/plane i Torilian cosmology, but which have separate realms on different planes in traditional D&D cosmology, I might (depending on the deities, their alignments, etc.) treat them in a manner similar to Griz'zt's capital city of Zelatar, which exists simultaneously on the 45th, 46th, and 47th layer of the Abyss (Graz'zt's realm, Azzagrat). Regards. |
| Shemeska the Marauder02-16-07, 05:28 PM | is there any name for that spikey thing that sticks out of the middle off the Outlands and 'almost' touches Sigil? :confused: The Infinite Spire |
| MarkusTay6302-16-07, 05:56 PM | The Infinite SpireThanks, works for me. :D Still trying to work out my super-cosmology, which is basically just the Wheel on steroids. ;) |
| Paix02-16-07, 07:10 PM | It has been said that the tree is more 'evolved' because it is not only about the alignment but about ideals and concepts. And how are the planes of the Great Wheel lacking in that? Abyss and its infinite layers are not just about CE. They represnt a multitude of concepts and the same goes for any other plane and its layers. They are infinite after all and thus all encompansing. On the contrary, the Tree is restricted to the gods and their own speific ideals and alignments. The other objection concerns the the roots of the great wheel planes to the mythology of a number of cultures. Well, the whole genre of fantasy has sprung from those mythologies. Dragons are found in greek, chinese, norse mythology (and a number of others). Similarly most iconic monsters have roots in real world myths and legends. It is therefore futile to argue that the great wheel is irrelevant to FR because it mentions the Olympian gods (which by the way are easily ignored - they were neither expanded upon nor figured in planescape in any appreciable way). Here is the heart of the matter. Planescape has gods subservient to wider ideals and philosophies which the planes themselves represent. I prefer that worldview for my games as it allows me to enrich FR with the exotic elements on offer and it actually has re-invigorated my games more than a few times due to the sheer scale and diversity on offer. The Tree is seriously lacking compared to the Planescape set-up. It is monolithic, as each god gets a plane particular to him. Obvious criticisms, such as there being two of every kind (e.g. two Asmodeus and so on) have already been pointed out. Lastly, having been gaming for more than a few years, both myself and my fellow players are not about to obsolete the planescape material we already possess for no substantive reason, other than FR should feel unique. I saw nothing wrong with the previous wealth of diversity nor did it diminish the Forgotten Realms flavour in any way. My impression is that simply commercial reasons made planescape unviable with the end result being the retrofitting that the Great Tree represents. Understandable, as this is a publishing company and not a charity but since I am able to have a choice, I chose the Great Wheel. |
| msatran02-16-07, 07:34 PM | Much as I would like to keep the wheel, I prefer the tree. There are many reasons for this. 1) It justifies, mystically and symbolically, the vast number of nature gods from "Real World Pantheons" as well as the presence of Tyr, the Norse god of Justice. 2) It gives me great pleasure to laugh at Hero System and their great Tree, Tyrannon the Conquerer, the most overpointed villain ever created. I wish I could say "Steven Long, this is your fault" but really, it's not. It's the fault of Dean Shomshak, who has been creating ridiculously overpowered supplements for years. And yes, he's a giant, immobile tree. It's the dumbest concept for a villain ever. I love the system, run all my superhero games in it, but...Tyrannon the Conquerer? Banned, banned, banned. 3) It provides the gm with a ready made spread of cosmic villainy for an epic level game. Want to destroy the universe? Hire a cosmic lumberjack! |
| MarkusTay6302-16-07, 07:40 PM | @Paix - Well said. :clap: I have often felt 'angry' that WotC apparently feels I should just throw away 30 years of collected planes-lore because they got a shiney new cosmology. Retrofitting is one thing, saying it never existed was just adding insult to injury. I guess all those books I paid for were lying to me? Just two things - It is therefore futile to argue that the great wheel is irrelevant to FR because it mentions the Olympian gods (which by the way are easily ignored - they were neither expanded upon nor figured in planescape in any appreciable way). <snip> The Tree is seriously lacking compared to the Planescape set-up. It is monolithic, as each god gets a plane particular to him.The Olympian Pantheon is one of only three Earth pantheons that actually get a decent treatment in the 3e Deities and Demigods. Much better then older sources, I just wished we could've of seen some of the other pantheons from earlier additions. Oh well, can't have everything. I like the Tree BECAUSE of the seperate domains for each god. And its not so much for each god, but rather each group with similar interests. Thats the only part of the Tree I want to keep, it makes more sense then gods with different alignments being stuck in a certain plane because thats we're the pantheon 'hangs out'. I would extrapolate this further, and say EVERY Devine Realm is its own seperate Demi-plane, with a major connection to the plane its normally associated with it. In this way, you could still reach Olympus or Arvandor from Arborea, but in actually they would not neccessarily be physically located on that plane. Many Godly domains are described as having connections to multiple planes in Planescape anyway, I'm just saying give them their own zip code. Then both cosmologies work perfectly well with each other. |
| Ryltar Swordsong02-16-07, 09:20 PM | On the "Two Asmodeus" inconsistancy: I have always regarded multispheric gods (and the other planar lords like Asmo, Demogorgon, Zaphkiel) to be kind of like a web. The true essence of each is the center of their web, with strands going to each Crystal Sphere. If you kill one in a sphere, you are severing the strand, not killing the essence. It would make them unable to access that sphere, but not kill them entirely. So they would appear "dead" for all intents and puposes in that sphere, but still be alive on the planes and in other spheres. That's the way I deal with that. |
| HVulpes02-16-07, 09:24 PM | @Paix - Well said. :clap: I have often felt 'angry' that WotC apparently feels I should just throw away 30 years of collected planes-lore because they got a shiney new cosmology. Retrofitting is one thing, saying it never existed was just adding insult to injury. I guess all those books I paid for were lying to me? Just two things - The Olympian Pantheon is one of only three Earth pantheons that actually get a decent treatment in the 3e Deities and Demigods. Much better then older sources, I just wished we could've of seen some of the other pantheons from earlier additions. Oh well, can't have everything. I like the Tree BECAUSE of the seperate domains for each god. And its not so much for each god, but rather each group with similar interests. Thats the only part of the Tree I want to keep, it makes more sense then gods with different alignments being stuck in a certain plane because thats we're the pantheon 'hangs out'. I would extrapolate this further, and say EVERY Devine Realm is its own seperate Demi-plane, with a major connection to the plane its normally associated with it. In this way, you could still reach Olympus or Arvandor from Arborea, but in actually they would not neccessarily be physically located on that plane. Many Godly domains are described as having connections to multiple planes in Planescape anyway, I'm just saying give them their own zip code. Then both cosmologies work perfectly well with each other. I wonder if something like this is what you are looking for. Bahamut in the old Planescape books (Or so it was from my memories, I might be wrong) had a realms that existed on different planes at the same time (Celestia, Air and Material). So in your realms, if I am guessing right, the divine realm of the Gates of the Moon would exist on the planes of Ysgard and Arborea at the same time while also existing as seperate from it as well. The plane of the Gates of the moon would have it's own layers for each god that would resemble one of the planes that it was linked to. A little bit confusing, but more epicly mysterious in nature that might fit what you might be looking for. Note: I still like the tree, but I am trying to help my fellow Realmanic. |
| Soltares02-16-07, 10:20 PM | I *loved* the old Manual of the Planes, but... I never liked the 'old system' where, 'here are the Nine Hells, each run by some minor Arch-Devil, and Tiamat, the *god* of evil dragons, is the doggie on their doorstep, and just past this Arch-Devils realm is a little desert full of pyramids where Set hands his hat, and over to our left, mind the scorpions, is Nergal of Babylonia, and oh, if you don't spook him, you can see Nomog-Gaeya in his natural environment! Please keep your hands in the boat, Sekolah is cruising these waters, since he's too poor of a god to have his own realms, and just hangs out in the oceans of some wimpy Arch-Devils personal Hell.' Too much of a mish-mash, IMO. I much prefer the idea of the Elven gods having their own distinct realm, not just time-sharing with a bunch of unrelated gods from other cosmologies. |
| Paix02-16-07, 11:19 PM | Yes, I am seeing this misconception perputuated often from my admittedly small reading of threads. Similar to the opinion that planescape/the great wheel rewarded all souls with their own personal paradise. The fact that an infinite player of infinite layers may have a number of divine domains, did not mean that they were adjacent to a central highway, next to 'Rent a Portal/teleport stone/gate' where creatures would hop on and proceed to make appointments with local tour guides paid in beads. In fact, I recall many a supplement (From the boxed sets of Planescape itself to the individual works detailing the planes) pointing out the difficulty of locating anything on the infinite planes, detailing the nature of the planes which in itself (on both the more benevolent and more hostile) inhibited travel unless their nature was understood by the players and so on. |
| Soltares02-17-07, 01:32 AM | In fact, I recall many a supplement (From the boxed sets of Planescape itself to the individual works detailing the planes) pointing out the difficulty of locating anything on the infinite planes, See, that's the problem. Infinite planes. There's just no reason for the prime material to be some tiny little speck of dirt juxtaposed between a bunch of infinite planes, *that for some inexplicable reason give a crap about said speck of dirt.* So I'm the god of Goblins, and I have *infinite* territory all to myself, even if it's technically on the same 'plane' as a bunch of other gods, devils, whatever, each with their own infinitely large subsections of this infinite vastness. The 'common' Outsiders of my infinite domain are a suitable challenge for mid-level adventuring parties, and the 'big bosses' can smack down kings and archmagi, and I'm the god who bosses them around. Why exactly am I giving a rat's tuckus what's going on on that strange little dirtball stuck between all the places that really matter, where everything is weak and mortal? There's just no reason for all that room, and it eliminates any sensible reason why demons, devil, celestial, elementals, genies, etc. would have the slightest interest in the material plane. If the Elemental Plane of Earth is infinite, why would Dao ever leave to open slave mines on the material plane? Infinity is a neat concept, but I think it's counter-productive here. Having the various planes being big, possibly even morphically big (as in adjusting according to their bosses mood), is cool, and yet keeping them finite, with finite resources, creates a very real reason why the inhabitants of those realms would be *fighting each other* for resources, or give a flying hoot about other planes at all. Sure, fine the demons and devils are fighting because their big jerks and too stupid to realize that they don't have enough manpower (and *never will*) to even control their own territory, let alone take over other realms, but why would the Modrons and Formians have ever even *encountered* each other, if they have infinite room to settle? There's a better chance that they'll encounter a plane-travelling wizard, than any of the inhabitants of their own plane, *ever.* A lot of them don't even age, or need food or water, but they could walk for *centuries* without seeing another creature... I just don't get the reason why a bunch of creatures more powerful than the mortal races, having infinite amounts of territory and infinite quantities of resources, often completely lacking any way of getting to the material plane, would choose to ignore the infinity around them and squabble over a single lump of rock in the material plane. It's a terribly geo-centric build, and doesn't really work as well for me as the Realms model, where Tiamat isn't squatting on Asmodeus' porch, wishing that the 'goddess of dragons' was cool enough to have her own plane, like that *glorified Pit Fiend* who runs Avernus. Tiamat has worshippers who could take that fiend down, and yet she hangs out in somebody elses plane and accepts that she's not the boss, 'cause Asmodeus is apparently beefy enough to prevent the various *gods* camping out in the Hells from claiming the place for their own. Buncha divine mooches, kick them out Azzy, don't let them live in the basement until they're 30! Tell them it's time to grow up and get their own planes! Heh, now I'm picturing Asmodeus flailing about with his cane muttering, 'That's not music, that's noise! And get off my lawn, you punks!' |
| Shemeska the Marauder02-17-07, 01:41 AM | See, that's the problem. Infinite planes. There's just no reason for the prime material to be some tiny little speck of dirt juxtaposed between a bunch of infinite planes, *that for some inexplicable reason give a crap about said speck of dirt.* Except it's not a tiny speck of dirt. The prime material is also infinite in size, dotted with a gigantic number, potentially an infinite number, or worlds. Toril, Oerth, Athas, Ortho, Falx, Threnody, Krynn, etc etc are each just individual planets in their own solar systems in the wider, infinite gulf of the prime material. It's important because it's where mortal souls and mortal belief spring from, an incubator of the raw material that shapes and partially defines the outer planes. They -very much care- about that sort of thing. It's the source of the belief that creates and sustains the gods, and they too will care very much about it. It's not in any way meaningless. |
| MarkusTay6302-17-07, 02:18 AM | Ortho and Falx? :confused: There's just no reason for the prime material to be some tiny little speck of dirt juxtaposed between a bunch of infinite planes, *that for some inexplicable reason give a crap about said speck of dirt.*Thats why in my version, the Prime material is a giant donut-shaped affair that wraps AROUND the Outer Planes. Planes are only infinite because the Universe is constantly expanding, so as the donut grows so does the Wheel in the middle. Thats the big secret of the Cosmos, Mortals actually have the better real estate. Maybe its not really a donut... maybe its a bundt cake.... |
| see02-17-07, 02:42 AM | Having "aspects per sphere" doesn't solve the problem. The Hells aren't in any crystal sphere. If the cosmology of all the campaign settings are unified, and somebody in a novel for one of the campaigns goes into the singular Nine Hells and kills the single core Asmodeus, Asmodeus is dead for all campaign settings. Simply not mentioning who killed Asmodeus in FR products doesn't make the problem of cross-interference go away, either. It just means that people who haven't bought non-FR planar products wallow in ignorance as to why Asmodeus is suddenly gone. And we know that with a unified cosmology, that kind of planes-shaking event is going to happen, because it happened half-a-dozen times when there was one. See Orcus getting offed. Or anybody the undead Orcus offed. Or all the contortions the Hells have gone through. Or . . . sigh. I, for one, do not want a cosmology where it is possible for Wee Jas and Hextor to gang up on and kill Bane because he won't loan them his lawnmower, because sooner or later somebody at Wizards is going to have a "bright idea" and do it -- or something other PSE just like it. The unified cosmology was a mistake, and we're well rid of it. The "it was always this way" declaration was a mistake, too (there should have been some explanation as to a change), but it's not one that's going to cause any further trouble. |
| GothicDan02-17-07, 09:02 AM | Having "aspects per sphere" doesn't solve the problem. The Hells aren't in any crystal sphere. If the cosmology of all the campaign settings are unified, and somebody in a novel for one of the campaigns goes into the singular Nine Hells and kills the single core Asmodeus, Asmodeus is dead for all campaign settings. Sort of like if someone kills the Simbul, she's dead, whether you're living in Aglarond, Halruaa, Silverymoon, or Mulmaster? Simply not mentioning who killed Asmodeus in FR products doesn't make the problem of cross-interference go away, either. It just means that people who haven't bought non-FR planar products wallow in ignorance as to why Asmodeus is suddenly gone. For events this major, one would mention them in publications, just as On Hallowed Ground did with Tyche 'disappearing' (splitting into Beshaba and Tymora). And we know that with a unified cosmology, that kind of planes-shaking event is going to happen, because it happened half-a-dozen times when there was one. See Orcus getting offed. Or anybody the undead Orcus offed. Or all the contortions the Hells have gone through. Or . . . sigh. Orcus got offed... I'm not seeing the problem here. I, for one, do not want a cosmology where it is possible for Wee Jas and Hextor to gang up on and kill Bane because he won't loan them his lawnmower, because sooner or later somebody at Wizards is going to have a "bright idea" and do it -- or something other PSE just like it. And now it's possible for dozens of Asmodei from multiple 'cosmologies' to gang up on and kill Bane. So the situation is worse than ever. |
| Gray Richardson02-17-07, 10:22 AM | The "it was always this way" declaration was a mistake, too (there should have been some explanation as to a change), but it's not one that's going to cause any further trouble.I should point out that no one at WotC has ever said "it was always this way." There has never been any such declaration. That gets quoted a lot in these forums by people who want to knock the new cosmology, but no one at WotC ever said it. Sometime after Sean K. Reynolds had left WotC, someone asked him on a forum how WotC was going to explain the change, and he speculated the material would be presented as if it had always been that way. But he was not speaking for WotC at the time, he did not rule out the possibility of an explanation being given later. He was just answering a question by a poster the way he saw it. Even though WotC has not given an explanation (yet) for the changes, no one at WotC has ever said definitively that the new cosmology has always been this way. They have been kinda mum on the topic. But their silence has left open the possibility that an in-game explanation might eventually be proposed. At least, no one has ruled it out. |
| miscellany02-17-07, 02:11 PM | <Back off Miss Miscellany, I got this one!> I'm sorry Gray that's incorrect. The 3E rules system was meant to be the means by which we all can 'better' view the Realms. That means of viewing has been termed The Magic Television and the The Oily Lens of the rules. The revisions to the Cosmology are part of that. WotC had made clear circa 2001 that the Cosmology has in fact always been in the form of the Great Tree model, we just never had rules to this point to 'see' it for what it was. Reynolds' own forum comments were not speculation, they were a direct statement based on the design focus that Reynolds, Baker (as Creative Director), Heinsoo and Williams were operating from when the FRCS was being worked on. ::::::::::: I fail to see why even knowledgeable posters on the subject continue to claim WotC never 'explained' why they changed over to the Great Tree. :confused: Am I the only one who knows how to use the internet? <Miss Miscellany says Shemeska knows, he's just not telling. :plotting: > :::::::::::: Why does Markus Tay say WotC is telling him his books were lying doesn't he get all the planar business from 2E did happen it's just that some of the names of places were wrong I wonder do we come here to get juiced or angry or do we come here to think I think it's the first part so come on put your thinking caps on humans! <Sorry, she had to get a word in. But she does have a point. It's hard to grasp that the 2E lore isn't invalidated. Think Gray, not black and white.> |
| ripvanwormer02-17-07, 03:34 PM | If the cosmology of all the campaign settings are unified, and somebody in a novel for one of the campaigns goes into the singular Nine Hells and kills the single core Asmodeus, Asmodeus is dead for all campaign settings. Single-sphere powers don't have any power outside of their single spheres (or personal realms). They're literally incapable of killing Asmodeus. In exactly the same way that Ao has no power outside Realmspace (and Realms-specific deities), Hextor has no power outside of Greyspace (and his own realm). Simply not mentioning who killed Asmodeus in FR products doesn't make the problem of cross-interference go away, either. It just means that people who haven't bought non-FR planar products wallow in ignorance as to why Asmodeus is suddenly gone. No, they get an explanation - but it's only an aspect of the truth. If Asmodeus is killed by Druaga (or another multi-spheric power capable of doing the deed), Realms materials say he was murdered by a "long-forgotten god of Unther." If he's killed by Hecate, they say he was the victim of "experimenting with fell magic." If it was the Chinese god of thieves, Sung Chiang, then he'll manipulate Baalzebul into doing it, and Realms products can simply blame Baalzebul. It's true, just not the whole truth. And it's fine. In the age of the Internet, nobody's going to "wallow in ignorance." And if they do, who cares? It's not important in a Realms campaign whether Asmodeus' assassin was Hecate, Sung Chiang, or the rat-god Squerrik. It's only important that he's dead. Not that anything like that will ever happen. And we know that with a unified cosmology, that kind of planes-shaking event is going to happen, because it happened half-a-dozen times when there was one. See Orcus getting offed. Or anybody the undead Orcus offed. Or all the contortions the Hells have gone through. Or . . . sigh. Those design decision had nothing to do with the cosmology, since those were all things that existed within the Realms cosmos. They would have happened whether there had been a unified cosmology or not, so they are not support for your argument. I, for one, do not want a cosmology where it is possible for Wee Jas and Hextor to gang up on and kill Bane because he won't loan them his lawnmower, because sooner or later somebody at Wizards is going to have a "bright idea" and do it No, they're not going to do that. They're not going to kill off Asmodeus, either. The only reason Orcus was killed was because some TSR executive forbade the TSR staff from using the 1st edition demon lords. Orcus looked too much like a classical demon, so he got axed. For most of the Planescape line, not only was Orcus dead, but they weren't allowed to even use his name (thus the bit about Kiaransalee erasing it from all records). It wasn't until later that things finally loosened enough that they could use him (and name him) again. The Realms already suffered the most moronic cataclysm ever - the Time of Troubles. And that had nothing to do with the unified cosmology. Nothing that will happen in the future could ever be any worse than that. A quarrel between Bane and Hextor would by comparison be brilliant design. The unified cosmology was a mistake, and we're well rid of it. The disunited cosmologies are conceptually unworkable. They're obscenely complicated, for one - an infinite series of Asmodei? That makes the mess that is Ao's selective authority seem simple in comparison. It's so ironic - the Realms used to be portrayed as the most planar-savvy of worlds, the one Prime Material planet that was completely open to the planes and what they represent. On Oerth they seal off any portals to the Outer Planes, certain (with reason) that a demon horde's going to rush through at any minute. But the Realms have always, since before TSR bought the setting, been a mongrel world, a hybrid of many influences from many worlds. Claiming exposure to other settings "pollutes" it is like claiming a swamp can be polluted by a pure mountain stream, one stream among several that feed it and have fed it for millennia. And yet, in 3rd edition they try to cloister it off, as if it had themes so unique and singular that the mere proximity of other ideas would hurt the setting. Suddenly it's among the least planar-savvy of realms, hiding behind the Plane of Shadow like a child hiding under its blankets with a flashlight, terrified of the darkness beyond. Fortunately, the Great Tree seems to be on its way out. Newer designers are ignoring it with greater and greater frequency. It's an experiment that ultimately didn't work, and I don't think it's too early to write its obituary. The Tree fans are soon going to be the grognards griping about how awesome things were in the old days. |
| MarkusTay6302-17-07, 04:10 PM | Why does Markus Tay say WotC is telling him his books were lying doesn't he get all the planar business from 2E did happen it's just that some of the names of places were wrong I wonder do we come here to get juiced or angry or do we come here to think I think it's the first part so come on put your thinking caps on humans!Actually, I agree with you 100%. I was under the impression that we are being told that all of the stuff prior to 3e does not apply, and therefore all of my old lore is rendered null and void. That is why I prepose that both are correct, much as you did. Every world has a tree, with little links to their gods Realms. Doesn't matter what you call it, its all conceptual anyway. What I prepose is that the divine realms are only connected to the planes, not a part of them. Think of them like Faerie or Ravenloft, hanging out in astral space with wispy tendrils reaching out too many worlds, including the Outer planes! Now each Outer plane contains it's own denizens, and most likely it's own Overpower, like Asmodeus. So in essence, even the Outer planes become Godly domains for the Single power that presides over them. Like Olympus (the domain, not the planar layer) is ruled by Zeus, then so to would Demogorgon have absolute power over the Abyss. EVERY plane should have a lord (or Pantheon) that rules it, and NO OTHER POWER SHOULD LIVE THERE! In this way, we have our cake and eat it too. The wheel is still 'out there', its just populated with Deamons, devils, daemons, Archons, Angels, Modrons, etc. The outer Planes are for the Arch-types, which not only include Devils and demons, but the D&D-specific pantheons. There is no Arborea on my Wheel, there is Arvandor and it is ruled by Corellon. Creatures that have interests in multiple spheres belong on the Wheel, those who don't belong in their own 'private' Realms (with multiple conduits to other ares). And yes, that means if Asmodeus gets killed he is dead on all worlds, but he will most likely reform because Asmodeus IS Hell. Just like Lolth, she finally realized she is no longer a demon, and broke off her realm into its own demi-plane, something she should have done years ago. Now if she is killed, every world will feel it, but her plane will simply 'regenerate' her. Unless she is killed off by a group of gods and they take her power and portfolios, in which case they could either take her realm, or let it dissapate and go form their own. Just my take, but it keeps everyone in their place. |
| HVulpes02-17-07, 04:11 PM | To answer Rip about the tree being on the way out... The only mistake was in the Fiendish Codexes which were focused on the Core lines for the most part, as far as I can tell. Realms lore trumphs that in both accessories and the lastest novels. The fact of the matter is those errors were cause by the departments not have overview of continuality. You can't expect a person working on something for the core department to know all of the details of the Realms department. Plus there is the growing pains for using the new system after using the old one for so many years, so there will be mistakes. But the rule of thumb is that new Sources trumphs old, excpet if it is campaign related. The realms cosmology is by name a realms issue, so FC info should be changed to fit the realms rather than the realms fitting the FC. Will the tree last? I don't know, but the Powers that be seem to be giving it a chance for now. They have written the new realms based source books to fit with the new cosmology and as I said the new novels (Last Mythral, War of the Spider-queen, etc) use it as well. Besides, even if the tree disappears it doesn't mean that it will return to the wheel. It could be something else. Or even if the wheel, it could be a seprate wheel that is not linked to the one for Greyhawk. That is why I would like to know more of the reasons for the change. |
| ripvanwormer02-17-07, 04:35 PM | The only mistake was in the Fiendish Codexes which were focused on the Core lines for the most part There are references to the planes of the Wheel in Realms products as well; for example, Limbo in Serpent Kingdoms. I don't think they're all errors. |
| HVulpes02-17-07, 04:48 PM | There are references to the planes of the Wheel in Realms products as well; for example, Limbo in Serpent Kingdoms. I don't think they're all errors. Yes, but I remember a note from the author of the Venom books saying that he couldn't think of another plane that fit and grandfather it into the tree. Just like older gods are being grandfather into the different pantheons of Faerun. Plus it is easier to add planes to the tree if they are need, much easier than the wheel. I am just getting tired of this arguement since it just keep going back and forth. Wheeler see the deaththrows of the tree and the Treehuggers see only growing pains. I just want something new to discuss, which is why I am asking the authors and designers to at least express the reasons for the changes and why it was done the way it was. Get some new blood in the discussion. They might have some good reasons for the change or they might have some bad ones. Or they could just have reasons and people opinions on them will be different. I just want some more answers. |
| Gray Richardson02-17-07, 05:49 PM | Reynolds' own forum comments were not speculation, they were a direct statement based on the design focus that Reynolds, Baker (as Creative Director), Heinsoo and Williams were operating from when the FRCS was being worked on.Miscellany, I am not incorrect. Everything I said is true. Sean K. Reynolds was not working for WotC at the time he posted that. That was not printed in any WotC official channel, sourcebook or website. It was simply his own opinion on his own website made at a time when he was no longer working for WotC. Yes he has special insight because of his participation in the design of 3e, but he was not speaking for WotC. His "Magic Television Set" analogy was his own way of describing the changes. The idea that as television has gotten better, from black & white, to color, to High Def, we have become better and better able to see the things depicted in new and better ways with more detail, so too is the Forgotten Realms better seen with each sourcebook and revision. This analogy, which I found interesting and actually quite apt, did not fly well with the grumpy grognards, who just seemed to get angrier over the revisions. Poor Sean, damned if you don't explain, damned if you do explain. Some people just won't ever be happy, so it doesn't pay to try and please 'em. Those people are always going to complain, that is their nature. The fact is that the designers of 3e decided to revise the D&D multiverse. This decision was not made by Sean Reynolds, it was made by the entire 3e design team, including Monte Cook (see his design diary for his take: http://www.montecook.com/diary33.html), Jeff Grubb, and many of the former Planescape designers that were still around at WotC at the time. The FR design team did create a new cosmology for the Realms (with input from Ed Greenwood), but the decision had already been made in the 3e design process that every setting would have its own cosmology, and you see this philosophy firmly ensconced in the 3e Manual of the Planes as well as in the FRCS. In fact the Manual of the Planes is all about customizing your cosmology to fit you. Everything in the MOTP is optional, and the book is chock full of advice for how DM's can change up the planes and create a perfectly tailored homebrew planar setup. The 3e designers were all about options. One of your options as a DM is to use whatever cosmology you like in your home game. If you like the Great Wheel, feel free to use it. Change it up. Or merge it with the Tree any way you like. Or use a completely different cosmos of your own devise. There has been plenty of material to support the Great Wheel in 3e, so its not like they have abandonned it completely. I personally like the changes the 3e designers made. I love the Great Tree so I am going to stick with that. :g: |
| miscellany02-17-07, 09:57 PM | Miscellany, I am not incorrect. Everything I said is true. Not entirely. Read on. Sean K. Reynolds was not working for WotC at the time he posted that. That was not printed in any WotC official channel, sourcebook or website. It was simply his own opinion on his own website made at a time when he was no longer working for WotC. Yes he has special insight because of his participation in the design of 3e, but he was not speaking for WotC. Reynolds was working as a freelancer for WotC at the time, but that’s quibbling and beside the point. It is true he was not speaking for WotC, however it is equally true Reynolds’ statements echoed a common understanding the entire FR design team were working from during the buildup to the release of the FRCS. His "Magic Television Set" analogy was his own way of describing the changes. The idea that as television has gotten better, from black & white, to color, to High Def, we have become better and better able to see the things depicted in new and better ways with more detail, so too is the Forgotten Realms better seen with each sourcebook and revision. That is an excellent summary of the concept. You know I believe Rich Baker coined the Magic TV term, but I can’t find a quote to that effect. Anyway what I can say factually is that the entire design team shared this philosophy regarding the rules. Consider Reynolds’ and Boyd’s statements from the Races of Faerun, Savage Species (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/chats/0322chatlog.html) chat log on Reynold’s website: SeanKR: The 3E design team always viewed FR as a world we could see with a "magic television." Now with 3E, we have slightly better reception. So some 2E rules don't apply, you just use 3E equivalents. In this case, epic spellcasting. Eric: That was also the way the 2e team viewed the 1e FR world.. That last statement is interesting because it shows how DnD game designers have thought of successive iterations of the rules. The concept -if not its current name- is older than we think. A quick look in the first sets of articles from the Forgotten Realms Features (http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/FR_Features.asp) archive (which strangely enough goes a little further back than the regular 2000 Forgotten Realms Archive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/2000) currently featured on WotC’s website) shows us how WotC tried to sell the idea that the 3E rules set and their attendant revisions all served to better sum up the Realms, through the voices of Ed Greenwood (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/20001006) and Jim Butler (http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/FR_RW_009.asp), amongst others. This analogy, which I found interesting and actually quite apt, did not fly well with the grumpy grognards, who just seemed to get angrier over the revisions. Poor Sean, damned if you don't explain, damned if you do explain. Some people just won't ever be happy, so it doesn't pay to try and please 'em. Those people are always going to complain, that is their nature. So true. So very true. You know I hope Sean finishes his "The FR cosmology in the FRCS sucks!" (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/index.html) and "You ignored FR continuity when writing the FRCS!" Rants before 4E comes out. It'd be nice to see the record set straight. The fact is that the designers of 3e decided to revise the D&D multiverse. This decision was not made by Sean Reynolds, it was made by the entire 3e design team, including Monte Cook (see his design diary for his take: http://www.montecook.com/diary33.html), Jeff Grubb, and many of the former Planescape designers that were still around at WotC at the time. An excellent link. Follow this link: Manual of the Planes Product Spotlight: Jeff Grubb (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/ps/ps20010909a) for a little more info on the subject. Grubb basically explains his own peripheral involvement in the FR Cosmology and shares the design team’s reasoning behind the broader cosmology changes. I personally like the changes the 3e designers made. I love the Great Tree so I am going to stick with that. :g: As will I, though I will not begrudge anyone their own choice, of course. ::::::::::::::::::: So anyway I disagreed with your statement that WotC never put in print any statement to the effect that the Great Tree model has always been the Realms Cosmology. I also clarified that Reynold’s description of how the rules were viewed was by no means an idea unique to him. If you are looking for a literal statement from a game designer to the effect of “Great Tree always was the Realms Cosmology”, well I don’t think we’ll find it. But then again it’s not entirely necessary, since time and again we see various game designers stating the new rules set reflects the Realms as it always was. So I think what you wrote me be technically true, but only in a limited sense. There is no good reason to doubt that the Great Tree is “new” from a historical perspective for the Realms. It’s always been this way. :) |
| Old Sparky02-17-07, 11:01 PM | Actually, I agree with you 100%. I was under the impression that we are being told that all of the stuff prior to 3e does not apply, and therefore all of my old lore is rendered null and void. That is why I prepose that both are correct, much as you did. Every world has a tree, with little links to their gods Realms. Doesn't matter what you call it, its all conceptual anyway. What I prepose is that the divine realms are only connected to the planes, not a part of them. Think of them like Faerie or Ravenloft, hanging out in astral space with wispy tendrils reaching out too many worlds, including the Outer planes! Now each Outer plane contains it's own denizens, and most likely it's own Overpower, like Asmodeus. So in essence, even the Outer planes become Godly domains for the Single power that presides over them. Like Olympus (the domain, not the planar layer) is ruled by Zeus, then so to would Demogorgon have absolute power over the Abyss. EVERY plane should have a lord (or Pantheon) that rules it, and NO OTHER POWER SHOULD LIVE THERE! In this way, we have our cake and eat it too. The wheel is still 'out there', its just populated with Deamons, devils, daemons, Archons, Angels, Modrons, etc. The outer Planes are for the Arch-types, which not only include Devils and demons, but the D&D-specific pantheons. There is no Arborea on my Wheel, there is Arvandoe and it is ruled by Corellon. Creatures that have interests in multiple spheres belong on the Wheel, those who don't belong in their own 'private' Realms (with multiple conduits to other ares). And yes, that means if Asmodeus gets killed he is dead on all worlds, but he will most likely reform because Asmodeus IS Hell. Just like Lolth, she finally realized she is no longer a demon, and broke off her realm into its own demi-plane, something she should have done years ago. Now if she is killed, every world will feel it, but her plane will simply 'regenerate' her. Unless she is killed off by a group of gods and they take her power and portfoios, in which case they could either take her realm, or let it dissapate and go form their own. Just my take, but it keeps everyone in their place. I like to think as the various outer planes as infinite expanses... and the gods (or, in some cases, whole pantheons) maintain domains (which I'll refer to as "realms" so as not to confuse with cleric domains) that are seemingly infinite but are tied to a specific plane. Thus, the gods of Olympus have a realm named (Mt.) Olympus that occupies physical space on that plane. The borders of realms may or may not be very distinguishable from the rest of the plane --and may expand or shrink with the gods' influence/power. The direct links from the various FR gods' "planes" to the prime material plane are conduits to their realms and not to the main plane itself. The sages & scholars of the FR that believe in the "Great Tree" theory are really only aware of the gods' realms and not the bigger picture of any given plane which may contain other divine realms. Also, I like to link certain divine realms with conduits of one sort or another, like the river that runs through the various "lower planes". |
| GothicDan02-20-07, 03:47 PM | Isn't it in the PGtF that it says, paraphrasing, "These are the only planes in the Cosmology and there have never been any other planes"? |
| HVulpes02-20-07, 03:56 PM | Isn't it in the PGtF that it says, paraphrasing, "These are the only planes in the Cosmology and there have never been any other planes"? From what I read, no. I think they tried to avoid that after the whole trouble with Faith and Pantheons and there are no gods but these. So they moved to the more inclusive method so they can make changes as need, with something similiar taking place with the gods as well. It is entirely possible to bring in the entire wheel into the realms as seperate planes from the divine themed planes with just editing the Blood Rift into Gehanna, Hades or a lost plane/developing plane between them. Then you could have the Divine planes float above or sink below the wheel and combined the tree and wheel in the same system. Would I do it? No, but I am not you. |
| GothicDan02-20-07, 03:58 PM | I was pretty sure it said (or implied) something along those lines. I've had conversations with people about it before. Ah, but I don't have mine at school, so I can't contest the statement with any references. |
| HVulpes02-20-07, 04:04 PM | I was pretty sure it said (or implied) something along those lines. I've had conversations with people about it before. Ah, but I don't have mine at school, so I can't contest the statement with any references. It could be from the FRCS, as that was printed before most of the exclusive backfire from Faith and Pantheons occured. Give me a few seconds to check. I can find it there either. |
| Paix02-20-07, 06:59 PM | What is does say in the relevant section of the player's Guide is that in D&D the planes follow the Great wheel BUT in the Realms there is a Tree. So it outright excludes the Great Wheel as it is phrased. Arguably this also implies that it has always been the case but it does not explicitly say that. It then just goes on to say that you can use the shadow plane, how there is the River of blood which is NOT the river Styx, but similar, how some planes are the same as the Great Wheel and other things that never fail to make me giggle as I imagine Faerun colliding with the plane of mirrors and breaking a few. All in all, a very desperate pitch at the very end; below the par of a good product and certainly nothing like the immersive and attentive lore the designers display in the rest of the product. If all this was carefully thought out, as the article sources and web blog excerpts (quoted above) seem to imply, and that was the result, I find it stretching credibility. Fantasy is a genre not an excuse. |
| Gray Richardson02-20-07, 07:48 PM | Isn't it in the PGtF that it says, paraphrasing, "These are the only planes in the Cosmology and there have never been any other planes"?It actually says the opposite. In the section that talks about lost planes it discusses how planes of forgotten pantheons have disappeared from the cosmology either by imploding or slipping loose their ties to the Tree and drifting beyond the astral. I kind of like the last image, sort of a dead leaf metaphor. ;) It mentions several examples of lost planes and/or realms (Zigguraxus, The Keep of the Sun, etc.) but implies that there have been more. It also talks about how the Blood Rift is thought to have split off from the Barrens of Doom & Despair, just as the Demonweb Pits split off from the Abyss. There is other evidence that new planes have been created (Arvandor, Dwarfhome, Heliopolis, etc.) when new pantheons have interloped or risen to power in the Realms. What is depicted is an organic cosmology that can grow, branch and wither as the needs and beliefs of the Torilians change with time. :g: |
| Old Sparky02-20-07, 09:34 PM | What is depicted is an organic cosmology that can grow, branch and wither as the needs and beliefs of the Torilians change with time. :g: "Organic" doesn't = better. I mean, marijuana is organic, but its not good... there's even laws against it. Organic. I hate that word's over-usage to describe things people want to embellish on in an undeserved positive manner. Anyway, the great tree may be this awesome and wonderful idea that fits naturally into the way the designers behind FR3e want things to work, but they crammed it into place in an utterly inorganic manner. So there... the organic nature is killed by the heavy-handed use of "its always been this way" to justify it. Oh, and one other thing... it completely escaped me, but a friend pointed this one out to me when we were discussing this topic. He said that the argument that the FR setting was never meant to be part of the Great Wheel cosmology and the new cosmology is a better fit for the FR's original concept than the Wheel was is total B.S. After all, if they were concerned at all about how the Realms should be, they wouldn't have redrawn the map to cut out a large section of terrain just to make the map conveniently fit on their poster-sized insert. How dare they redefine the Realms and pretend their changes are better suited for what things should have been. Some changes may be for cost-effectiveness, some with the intent to draw in a newer & younger crowd of consumers, and some because the game designers and/or management in charge at any given time has the notion to "fix" what they didn't like. The changes themselves may or may not be bad, but the way the made the changes sure were. I have to agree with him. The great tree may have its merits, but I will still never change my opinion of it simply because the change was unnecessary, overly contrived, poorly introduced, and even more poorly explained and maintained since FR came into the 3rd edition. |
| miscellany02-21-07, 12:35 AM | I have to agree with him. The great tree may have its merits, but I will still never change my opinion of it simply because the change was unnecessary, overly contrived, poorly introduced, and even more poorly explained and maintained since FR came into the 3rd edition. And you really don't have to change your opinion, since you can easily adapt the Wheel to fit your needs, nobody at WotC wants you to change your opinion and the sum of your feelings about the manner in which the revision occured are entirely subjective. While you're busy being stubborn I'm going to go use the Great Tree some more to have fun. Hope you find some fun time too. :P |
| Dark Wizard02-21-07, 01:23 AM | By implementing the Tree cosmology and overriding the Wheel, the designers in some way are invalidating the Wheel-Is-Better opinion. It's one of those cute little named fallacies some posters like to toss around so much on the main D&D boards. Just because you can Rule 0 something doesn't mean it's perfectly alright. The books provide the official say on something, which carries a lot of influence, even in a game where the DM sees fit to alter everything. The example extends even to those who hate certain things about the Realms and change them. If someone doesn't like Mystra and her Chosen, they can remove them. I've seen people repeated go about that by describing the grisly and humiliating ends certain characters go through as if the characters came to life just to killed the player/DM's dog then returned to becoming fictional characters in a book again. People actually take out a lot of anger on certain characters as if those characters personally ruined their life. That sort of reaction is a major reaction, even if in the end all is well in their game as they see it. Strong reactions extends to places and ideas as well. Should the official lore have an iron-bound immutable quality to them, certainly not. Yet we cannot say they have no effect just because the DM can wave them away with Rule 0. I don't think WotC and most designers keep this in mind often enough. Add in the fact that the change came about in a very awkward and heavy handed way makes this situation particularly difficult for some to accept. It would be different if some book said the Tree is how Torillians see it and the Wheel is another interpretation or some other loophole/exit clause to give DMs official freedom. Instead we have new lore that has a certain attitude about its wording, as if it's the final, authoritative, absolute word on the matter, even if that is not explicitly stated. |
| Gray Richardson02-21-07, 03:22 AM | "Organic" doesn't = better.I agree. The fact that the Tree is better has little to do with the fact that it is organic. It just happens to be a metaphor that I really like. I love that the Tree can grow, limbs can branch off and fork, it's foliage can expand and bloom, and with time certain leaves can fall away. I love that the cosmology is not set in stone. I love that it is adaptable. I love that it can add more planes. I love the hint that there were ancient planes that have died or are lost. So the organic metaphor really appeals to me in this case. Although I agree that "organic" is not a term that automatically makes any product better. I wasn't using the word in any kind of "vegan" or hippie sense. ;) Anyway, the great tree may be this awesome and wonderful idea that fits naturally into the way the designers behind FR3e want things to workI agree with you again. ;) a friend pointed this one out to me when we were discussing this topic. He said that the argument that the FR setting was never meant to be part of the Great Wheel cosmology and the new cosmology is a better fit for the FR's original concept than the Wheel was is total B.S.Your friend is very eloquent and his insightful rhetoric nearly had me persuaded there. ;) if they were concerned at all about how the Realms should beThey care a lot. People like Rich Baker, Eric Boyd, Sean Reynolds, and a host of other fine people at WotC have been turning out wonderful Realmslore for many years and continue to do so. They obviously devote a great part of their time, effort and creativity to the Realms, and I am very grateful that they do. They go to cons to visit with fans, they hang out on the boards and spend a lot of their free time answering questions. It seems obvious to me that they care a great deal. Just because you disagree with a creative decision the Realms designers have made does not justify impugning their commitment to the Realms.How dare they redefine the Realms and pretend their changes are better suited for what things should have been.Well, because they own the property. They paid for the right to publish new Realmslore, make whatever changes they want and earn a profit from their efforts. When you buy a setting, like the Realms, you have to hire people to edit, manage, design and write new material. Someone has to have a creative vision and be in charge of all that and make decisions. And I think WotC has done a fantastic job. The Realms has not died under their leadership, it has blossomed and is now more popular than ever. They have produced book after book of amazing and high-quality Realmslore since they took over from TSR. The current Forgotten Realms design team and editors have been wonderful stewards of the Realms, and we have all benefitted from that. You may not agree with some of the decisions WotC has made, but decisions have to be made by someone, and WotC has not only paid for the right, but has earned it as far as I am concerned.The great tree may have its merits, but I will still never change my opinion of itNo one is asking you to change. :) You should definitely use the Wheel if you prefer it. But do please stop attacking the goodhearted writers and desginers that bring us our fine Realmslore. :g: |
| MarkusTay6302-21-07, 03:52 AM | The fact is that the designers of 3e decided to revise the D&D multiverse. This decision was not made by Sean Reynolds, it was made by the entire 3e design team, including Monte Cook (see his design diary for his take: http://www.montecook.com/diary33.html), Jeff Grubb, and many of the former Planescape designers that were still around at WotC at the time.You know, you just gave me an interesting idea. Most of the team responsible for the re-design of the realms has since go on and created their own settings and publish their own books. Sometimes, a little sabotage goes a long way. ;) |
| Stigger02-21-07, 04:47 AM | Seems a tiny bit paranoid... but you never know. It does make a certain warped sense though... and could explain a few things really... seems rather malicious for no good reason though. Bah, thanks, put a evil little seed of contemplation into my head why don't you... |
| GothicDan02-22-07, 11:06 AM | People like Rich Baker, Eric Boyd, Sean Reynolds, and a host of other fine people at WotC have been turning out wonderful Realmslore for many years and continue to do so. It would probably be best to state such things as an opinion, not a fact. |
| Old Sparky02-22-07, 12:14 PM | When you buy a setting, like the Realms, you have to hire people to edit, manage, design and write new material. Someone has to have a creative vision and be in charge of all that and make decisions. And I think WotC has done a fantastic job. And you aren't the only one who thinks they have done a fantastic job, but I am not the only one who thinks they haven't. And when I buy a setting, like the Realms, I will stop producing content for it altogether... allowing the creator to take it over and do what he wants with it, whether that means the setting dies or does well. The current Forgotten Realms design team and editors have been wonderful stewards of the Realms, and we have all benefitted from that. No, we all haven't. Don't force your opinions on everyone. You may not agree with some of the decisions WotC has made, but decisions have to be made by someone, and WotC has not only paid for the right, but has earned it as far as I am concerned.No one is asking you to change. :) You should definitely use the Wheel if you prefer it. But do please stop attacking the goodhearted writers and desginers that bring us our fine Realmslore. :g: I certainly will not. I've already stated that my stance will not change until they they admit their mistake about the cosmology and bring back the Great Wheel, using the tree metaphor as some fearunian's misperceptions. It would probably be best to state such things as an opinion, not a fact. Word. |
| Gray Richardson02-22-07, 07:55 PM | It would probably be best to state such things as an opinion, not a fact.Better for whom? ;) Anyway, this isn't an opinion. It simply IS a fact that the Realms designers and authors, (including Rich, Eric, Ed Greenwood, the Toms, Sean, Eytan, Darrin, Wil, Erik, Stephen and many others) are awesome and have been putting out amazing, high quality Realmslore for many years. There's no denying it! :w00t: Attacking designers and WotC staff, however, is beyond the bounds of civil discourse. I am sure they are big boys and don't need me to defend them, but seriously, when I see someone attacking the authors and the designers it raises my hackles. To me, that is simply disgraceful and I should think it counts as trolling. You can attack me (I can take it ;) ), you can attack the Great Tree if you must (though I wish you wouldn't), but hands off the designers and authors. That is something I simply won't agree to disagree on. |
| Karsus the Mad02-22-07, 10:10 PM | Big sqooshy hug for Gray! |
| GothicDan02-22-07, 10:18 PM | Alright, Gray. Put on your boxing gloves! I should have expected your noted irrational optimism would eventually drive you totally into insanity. Now we duke it out! (I'll call in Shemmy for support, later.) |
| Karsus the Mad02-22-07, 10:37 PM | Alright, Gray. Put on your boxing gloves! I should have expected your noted irrational optimism would eventually drive you totally into insanity. Now we duke it out! (I'll call in Shemmy for support, later.) NOOOOOOOOOO! I need something sqooshy to hug so I can fall asleep! |
| Shemeska the Marauder02-22-07, 10:53 PM | (I'll call in Shemmy for support, later.) *lends you my CR 23 lacky Sharlocke* Yes, I have CR 23 lackies now, if Dungeon 144 is to be believed. ;) But you don't need my support really, because you're a big boy just like Gray, though without the irrational optimism. You're like his cynical mirror-opposite, the successful with the ladies Hyde to his nebbish Jekyl, the Frank Miller 'Dark Knight' to his campy 60's batman, the Connery Bond to his Moore, etc. But I love you both, just like a mother nycaloth loves both of her green, mucus covered, mewling and snarling spawn, and just like a momma nycaloth, I've got to stand back and watch you fight to the death. ;) Or something like that. I'm just having fun with funky imagery right now. :D |
| miscellany02-23-07, 01:36 AM | It would probably be best to state such things as an opinion, not a fact. That doesn't seem necessary, given the fact that all books with one or more of their names continue to sell (well). Sales may not be the standard you judge quality by, but that hardly disqualifies it as the best standard to use. (Note the typical, 'Just because it pleases the unwashed masses doesn't mean it's good.' claim would be a poor rejoinder, given it's obvious flaws as an argument.) And don't worry Gray, if Shemmy gets out of hand I can lay the smack down thanks to Miss Miscellany's patented "Smack the 'Loth Down" cartoon hammer. :duel: |
| MarkusTay6302-23-07, 02:18 AM | So you're argumaent is that if it sells well it must be good? Were you around for 'Pet Rocks'? Lots of people buy cigarettes... they MUST be good... I guess all those MILLIONS of product recalls we see everday are just plain silly, because we bought them so the must be good... :rolleyes: Someone brought up marijuana before, thats both EXPENSIVE AND organic! Its like a double-slice of heaven. After all, millions of people buy it, so it MUST be good. Buying game products are like a crack addiction, you are gonna take what you can get because you are desperate for more and the crappy 'dealers' know it. Rant Over. The only thing this and other related threads has proven to me is that all artificial cosmologies suck. The only thing the tree is good for is keeping the Fenris Wolf happy, he's been upset ever since he lost his cosmic fire-hydrant. And the 'new and improved' Wheel looks like more like a hubcap off a '68 cadilac. In a 'real' cosmology, all the gods are of the same pantheon, so all the dead go to the same hell and heavens. Khelben worships Mystra but goes to Arvandor? Are there ANY rules anymore? Whats the point of worshipping a god if your just gonna get your skulled scrapped clean anyway? (memory loss). FR religion is BROKEN, as are all D&D religions. Gods are either members of the same pantheon or they are not, none of this in-between cr@p. There needs to be a unified Heaven and Hell for a pantheon to work correctly. This is in no way dissing Planescape, I LOVE that setting. Its just that I'm starting to think that it may be TOO much 'info' for a normal setting to use. After all, wouldn't Wizards and other powerful types travel to their 'after-life' ahead of time, buy a nice piece of Real Estate with a view, get some decent furniture (Ikea?), and load it up with all kinds of cool stuff the way the Egyprian Pharaohs used to; they'd be set! I'd actually look forward to my demise if I could bring all my stuff with me. And thats how silly it is when you can 'visit' your gods and the outer planes (afterlife's). |
| Stigger02-23-07, 03:08 AM | Perhaps its just that your puny mortal mind just can't conceive of trafficking with gods? Poor mortal... but seriously though, consider that you're looking at this perhaps from the wrong perspective... however you set up the planes has to be rational to the DM and the PC's, and that's it... absolutely nothing else matters so long as they can agree upon a framework. Anything else is moving from the realms of gaming into the realms of theology. ;) As an aside, I'd take exception with the cigarette and other such arguements there, but it's not really the time or place for it... but a lot of the info out there about them and things like marijuana is just so politicized it's not even funny... has nothing to do with science or health anymore really. |
| Old Sparky02-23-07, 12:10 PM | Better for whom? ;) Anyway, this isn't an opinion. It simply IS a fact that the Realms designers and authors, (including Rich, Eric, Ed Greenwood, the Toms, Sean, Eytan, Darrin, Wil, Erik, Stephen and many others) are awesome and have been putting out amazing, high quality Realmslore for many years. There's no denying it! :w00t: I disagree. What you are stating is an opinion you and others hold. It is not a fact, and not everyone shares your opinion. Get over it. Attacking designers and WotC staff, however, is beyond the bounds of civil discourse. I am sure they are big boys and don't need me to defend them, but seriously, when I see someone attacking the authors and the designers it raises my hackles. To me, that is simply disgraceful and I should think it counts as trolling. Its trolling when someone "attacks" (I call it criticize), but its not trolling when empty praise is offered? How is "they're awesome" any different from trolling except that you are trolling with positive comments? Basically, it seems like a double standard... you're allowed to post opinions unless the opinions you post aren't praise. If the various authors can't stand criticism, then they should not be writing for profit. And no, they don't need you to defend them, but like a good little forum angel, you take it personally anyway. That'll prove who's opinions are "right" when my posts get editted or deleted for having negative statements and your's remain for saying how awesome the writers are. Saying they are awesome is just as much trolling, in my opinion... because your statement seems designed to cause argument since you know I strongly disagree with it. You can attack me (I can take it ;) ), you can attack the Great Tree if you must (though I wish you wouldn't), but hands off the designers and authors. That is something I simply won't agree to disagree on. Neither will I. How can I attack the tree concept and that's okay, but attacking the people who created it by saying how bad a decision I think it was is not okay?? The writers and their ideas go together. If I claim something is the worst idea in the world but say the guy who thought of it is awesome, that makes me sort of a hypocrite... I'm not going to sugarcoat my opinions of them to not hurt your feelings because I don't like the ideas or the ways they've presented them. Honestly... it is a very good thing I can't get into a position where I could buy this setting from WotC and/or Hasbro, because I would make an official statement to the effect that certain authors ideas about the Realms have no credibility and am enacting a Dallas-wake-up-from-a-season-long-bad-dream action to wipe out the damage done they've done to the setting. And then, after publishing a thing or two trying to bring the setting back to the glory of its 2e days, I would give up on it and just let Ed have the whole thing back. Yes... if I had the money to do it, I would spend it and then give the setting away to good hands. I'd consider the loss of funds well-spent. |
| ripvanwormer02-23-07, 02:21 PM | Khelben worships Mystra but goes to Arvandor? No, you go to the realm of the primary god you worship, regardless of your alignment. Whats the point of worshipping a god if your just gonna get your skulled scrapped clean anyway? (memory loss). Petitioners retain their earthly personalities and at least fragments of memory. They know who their gods are (if they had any). What they forget are the things that tied them down to mortal life, so they can concentrate on their new lives in the hereafter. Gods are either members of the same pantheon or they are not, none of this in-between cr@p. I have no idea what you're talking about here. After all, wouldn't Wizards and other powerful types travel to their 'after-life' ahead of time, buy a nice piece of Real Estate with a veiw, get some decent furniture (Ikea?), and load it up with all kinds of cool stuff the way the Egyprian Pharaohs used to; they'd be set! I'd actually look forward to my demise if I could bring all my stuff with me. That's where the memory loss comes in handy. The wizard in question will be put in the same group as all the other new petitioners, and won't remember that she owned real estate and Ikea furniture when she was still alive. It's unlikely she'll have any legal claim to her mortal belongings, in any case. Unless she worshiped the Mulhorandi pantheon, anyway, in which case she doesn't have to physically schlep all that stuff to the Outer Planes - she can just models of it all in her tomb. |
| ripvanwormer02-23-07, 02:28 PM | And then, after publishing a thing or two trying to bring the setting back to the glory of its 2e days Except for the Faiths & Avatars series, most 2e Realms books were really, really bad. The average 3e FR book is much better in comparison, cosmological issues aside - they seem to spend more time making a more consistent and interesting product. Although that may be changing as they move from regional sourcebooks to splatbooks. |
| Stigger02-23-07, 03:09 PM | Dunno about that... seems a lot of the substantive text pretty much got lifted nearly verbatim from those 2e sources. After being condensed and shrunk a bit. |
| MarkusTay6302-23-07, 03:31 PM | No, you go to the realm of the primary god you worship, regardless of your alignment.Not according to the novel Blackstaff. I don't want to place spoilers in this thread, lord knows there are enough with those, but in that novel ANYONE with even a smidge of Elf blood goes to Arvandor, regardless of who they worshipped. One more example of authors screwing canon. Petitioners retain their earthly personalities and at least fragments of memory. They know who their gods are (if they had any). What they forget are the things that tied them down to mortal life, so they can concentrate on their new lives in the hereafter.Thanks for that, that makes a some sense to me. I've been having a hard time swallowing that concept for awhile. Perhaps their 'memories' are tied to their physical brain-matter, and theirs 'souls' carry who they are? I like that a lot, much better then the 'memories float in little bubbles in the Astral' hogwash. I have no idea what you're talking about here.Neither do I, most of the time, don't feel bad. :P Actually, what I meant was that in 'real' cosmologies the gods are all inter-related, and the worshippers of all of them go to the same afterlife. I mean, in ancient Greece you worshipped the whole pantheon, and went to Hades, even if you had a preference to whom you revered. Game, set, match. None of this "I liked Chauntee a little better then Mielikki", or "I prayed to Umberlee but never really liked her". It just confuses things; in Prince of Lies Cyric tricks a petitioner into worshipping him by posing as a different god, so the guy ended up in the wrong place. Kinda stupid, no? That's where the memory loss comes in handy. The wizard in question will be put in the same group as all the other new petitioners, and won't remember that she owned real estate and Ikea furniture when she was still alive. It's unlikely she'll have any legal claim to her mortal belongings, in any case.You tied this into your earlier answer, which I already stated I liked VERY much. Good call. Unless she worshiped the Mulhorandi pantheon, anyway, in which case she doesn't have to physically schlep all that stuff to the Outer Planes - she can just models of it all in her tomb.Good idea, I'm switching my worship to the Pharaonic Pantheon ASAP! :D |
| ripvanwormer02-23-07, 06:44 PM | Not according to the novel Blackstaff. I don't want to place spoilers in this thread, lord knows there are enough with those, but in that novel ANYONE with even a smidge of Elf blood goes to Arvandor, regardless of who they worshipped. One more example of authors screwing canon. Wow. I don't think we're supposed to talk about our opinion of novels here, so I'll leave that alone. Perhaps their 'memories' are tied to their physical brain-matter, and theirs 'souls' carry who they are? Yeah, that's more or less what I think. If a memory is an essential part of who you are, it becomes part of your soul. The mundane stuff, and even seemingly important things like your wife's affair or who killed you, generally remains with the body (though Speak to Dead can recover it). You forget your sins or your virtues (depending on the nature of the plane you're on, according to Dante Alighieri - those in Heaven forget their sins, while those in Hell remember only their sins), but you might be able to recognize your loved ones. Actually, what I meant was that in 'real' cosmologies the gods are all inter-related, and the worshippers of all of them go to the same afterlife. That's admittedly a big change from traditional mythology, although what you say isn't entirely true. The Greeks had at least three afterlives, for example - Hades, Tartarus, and the Elysian Fields, plus a few favored souls were set in the stars or joined the Olympians as minor gods. That's pretty much the same way the Olympian pantheon is handled in Planescape. Dante spoke of three as well - Purgatory, the Inferno, and Paradise. In Norse cosmology, souls either join Odin in Valhalla, Hel in Helheim, or they can also join Njord or Aegir. In Aztec mythology, souls can go to the Heaven of Ometeotl, the heaven of Quetzalcoatl, the heaven of Tezcatlipoca, to Tlalocan (the heaven of Tlaloc), to Tonaitiuhican, land of Tonatiuh the sun god, to Tlillan-Tlapallan, land of the fleshless, to Xibalba, house of gloom, or to Mictlan, home of the god Mictlantecuhtli, depending on their actions in life. The Romans believed souls might become one with the sun after they died, descend into the gloom of Hades, join the stars in the heavens, or be reincarnated. It's not entirely true that the gods of a pantheon are all interrelated, either. Loki isn't related to the Aesir. Neither are the Vanir gods, Njord, Freyr, and Freya. Some sources say that even Tyr isn't related to the other Norse gods - he's the son of the giant Hymir (though other sources call him a son of Odin). Ptah isn't related to the Ennead. Sometimes gods just show up from who knows where. The Romans worshiped a mix of their own traditional gods, deified emperors, Egyptian gods, Greek gods, Gaulish gods, gods from Asia Minor, and even a god or two from Persia. They certainly weren't all related. The Faerunian "pantheon" is like that of the Romans - a collection of gods adopted from a variety of different sources, all of them worthy of respect and worship. Now, admittedly there isn't much precedent for every single deity maintaining its own afterlife (even the Aztecs didn't have a heaven for every single god), but then again D&D religions typically aren't traditional polytheism, either. They're like dozens of different monolatrous faiths, like the hundreds of separate tribal deities worshiped in some cultures, where each tribe worships its own god and ignores the others. This is turned into something like hundreds of competing parallels of medieval Christianity. In such a situation, it's not surprising that the different gods rarely help one another out afterlife-wise. |
| MarkusTay6302-23-07, 06:51 PM | But in all of those examples, the souls went to the afterlife suited to their alignment in life - Good guys go to 'Heaven' (or whatever the religion calls it) and bad guys go to 'Hell' (or whatever the religion calls it), and everyone else ends up in-between (pugatory, fugue plain, Hades, whatever). In FR, there are those that are actively TRYING to get into Hell by worshipping evil gods, and thats where the cosmology throws me. Either a place is a reward or a place is a punishment, you can't have it both ways. Otherwise, I like everything you've said, especially concerning the memory thing. |
| Stigger02-23-07, 06:58 PM | Theologically speaking, purgatory is a relatively new concept really, but that's neither here nor there really. As to hell being a punishment or a reward, it would depend on the perspective you're coming from. One man's heaven is another man's hell sort of thing. The way I tend to look at it is that a aasimon's happy dream would be a demon's worst nightmare, with the converse certainly being true. So it would extend logically that a truly evil person would find the celestial planes tortuous and the fiendish planes as a paradise, within their own context of those words. The goodly person would think of that concept with horror I'm sure (I certainly do), but given their own inverted comparative perceptions, I think it makes sense. So, yeah, you can have it both ways, it just depends on what point of view you're coming from. |
| ripvanwormer02-23-07, 07:02 PM | But in all of those examples, the souls went to the afterlife suited to their alignment in life That's not true. Tlalocan is a paradise for those who drown in water. It has nothing to do with alignment. Few would call Tlaloc, who demanded human sacrifice, a good deity. By D&D standards, Tlalocan might be considered a lower plane (though the Maztica boxed set put in Arcadia, even though they made the deity who created it lawful evil). Tezcatlipoca is considered an evil god in D&D too, yet his realm is one of the heavens. Similarly, the Elysian Fields aren't a reward for good deeds. It's the place you go if you're favored by the gods. Medea went to the Elysian Fields, and she murdered her brother and her two children - some of the worse crimes you can commit for the ancient Greeks. Helios and Hecate liked her, however, so she got in. You go to Valhalla if you die bravely in battle. It doesn't matter whether you were generous to guests and your thralls, or if you chopped up little babies with an axe. It's the same way in both the Great Wheel and Great Tree cosmologies. You join your deity; maybe your god was evil by the objective standards of alignment, but that doesn't mean your god's realm is Hell. It's simply a place set aside for those who were faithful worshipers of your god. The realm of Bane might seem a paradise, not a place of torment. So no, you don't have to have it both ways. Every divine realm is a Heaven, primarily, even if it's on a Lower Plane. Hell is the fiendish realms, where the gods cast those who they do not favor. I'm uncertain about the last part, however. If you're a lawful evil worshiper of Tyr, does Tyr cast you into Baator, or does he have a place set up in the Court where his own servants punish you? Or are you only "punished" by not being permitted to merge with Tyr until you prove yourself worthy? I can see all of these as valid options. |
| Gelcur02-23-07, 07:26 PM | My personal take on the cosmology is I consider the change an actual change in the multiverse. Notably I have yet to need to branch into the planar travel or explanations in my current campaign but I have given it a good bit of thought. The way I see it is it is easier to fit canon material before and after the change in if the cosmology changes along with the material. I plan to use "Die Vecna, Die" to tie my material together. Many people have suggested this might be a reasoning and honestly I like big epic feelings especially when it comes to the planes. Even if my players don't take part in it next time they go to travel in the planes the very fabric of how the cosmology works will have changed out from under them. All the old canon still fits all the new canon still fits, and if and when they change things back or differently things will change again, maybe with a reason maybe with not. But honestly it makes a DM's life so easy. Now don't get me wrong I tend to run a very strict FR campaign and I tend to put a lot of work into to keep it from straying from canon but this is one point that I think its best to give on. I have to say I agree with Gray that the people at WotC, and formally TSR, do an overall very good job of creating good lore. Having talked with some of them in the past for other storylines I have found nearly all of them mean the best. Sometimes no matter how hard you try though you do introduce flaws in continuity as a D&D player and DM people should realize it happens. |
| miscellany02-24-07, 12:05 AM | So you're argumaent is that if it sells well it must be good? Yessir! Were you around for 'Pet Rocks'? Lots of people buy cigarettes... they MUST be good... I guess all those MILLIONS of product recalls we see everday are just plain silly, because we bought them so the must be good... :rolleyes: Don't light a match or you'll set your strawman on fire. :eek: Buying game products are like a crack addiction, you are gonna take what you can get because you are desperate for more and the crappy 'dealers' know it. You could imply that if you want. Or you could accept that some people (beyond the miniscule cross-section this forum represents) are capable of making rational judgements about Realms products as good or bad for their gaming needs. I'm just not as pessimistic as you, I guess. :cool: |
| MarkusTay6302-24-07, 12:25 AM | I make a point, and you just say some silly words. My three old says silly words, but he's cute. Whats your excuse? 95% of the US economy is based on the fact that Americans LOVE to buy CR@P! Consumers are IDIOTS, plain and simple. You stick to your guns... but I'll continue to make VALID points. |
| GothicDan02-24-07, 09:26 AM | Markus, meet Miscellany. We're old enemies. FEEL MY PAIN. |
| GothicDan02-24-07, 09:32 AM | Not according to the novel Blackstaff. I don't want to place spoilers in this thread, lord knows there are enough with those, but in that novel ANYONE with even a smidge of Elf blood goes to Arvandor, regardless of who they worshipped. One more example of authors screwing canon. Rip, don't listen to this. Steven Schend is just about one of the best game designers ever. Khelben went to Arvandor because Sehanine Moonbow (I believe that was the member of the Seldarine) had a long-standing previous claim on his soul (in the good way). |
| Shemeska the Marauder02-24-07, 10:53 AM | Steven Schend is just about one of the best game designers ever. And I'll second that. |
| Old Sparky02-24-07, 12:27 PM | In FR, there are those that are actively TRYING to get into Hell by worshipping evil gods, and thats where the cosmology throws me. Either a place is a reward or a place is a punishment, you can't have it both ways. That's not true. Hell (and other lower planes) can indeed be punishment and reward. Think of it like this, there are people that want to go there to get in good with the management... secure themselves a good position. Others may end up there through other means, including making pacts with fiends or worshipping a diety that turns out to be dead with another diety who's usurped the dead one's portfolio and worshippers by using the dead god's identity as an alias. |
| miscellany02-24-07, 01:57 PM | I make a point, and you just say some silly words. You know what a strawman argument is, right? 95% of the US economy is based on the fact that Americans LOVE to buy CR@P! Consumers are IDIOTS, plain and simple. Thanks for insulting everyone. You heard it here first, Realmsfans. According to Markus, you're all idiots. You stick to your guns... but I'll continue to make VALID points. Go right ahead. If you can back it up with some sort of statistical evidence beyond your pessimistic opinion of all US consumers, even better. I just have a higher opinion of Realmsfans I guess. We're getting books that are as good as or better than anything we saw in 2E Realmslore and that are worth purchasing because they allow for great gaming in the Realms. I'm sorry you feel that way about people. I just don't agree with that sentiment. :) |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-24-07, 02:49 PM | You know what a strawman argument is, right? Thanks for insulting everyone. You heard it here first, Realmsfans. According to Markus, you're all idiots. Go right ahead. If you can back it up with some sort of statistical evidence beyond your pessimistic opinion of all US consumers, even better. I just have a higher opinion of Realmsfans I guess. We're getting books that are as good as or better than anything we saw in 2E Realmslore and that are worth purchasing because they allow for great gaming in the Realms. I'm sorry you feel that way about people. I just don't agree with that sentiment. :) I personally think the 2nd edition stuff gave more insight into the people and places of the realms. The 3rd edition stuff seems to be all about synopsis and stat blocks. I don’t totally hate the 3rd edition realms lore, but if I really want to know something about SPACIFICS! I crack open my old box sets!:D |
| miscellany02-24-07, 03:10 PM | I personally think the 2nd edition stuff gave more insight into the people and places of the realms. The 3rd edition stuff seems to be all about synopsis and stat blocks. I don’t totally hate the 3rd edition realms lore, but if I really want to know something about SPACIFICS! I crack open my old box sets!:D Hello Luciean you know my DM does the same thing he will use his Volo's guides a lot when we play 3E Realms but he also uses his 3E books just as much. I recognize there is a change in format but still it's not like 2E was all lore only and no rules. Remember all the monster manual pages that had to be crammed in to binders? :) |
| Gray Richardson02-24-07, 03:25 PM | Realmsfans are by and large a bright and perspicacious collection of individuals. I mean, come on, Realms fans are folks that read! People engaged in a hobby that requires you to read and exercise your imagination have a leg up on other consumers. Realms fans know what they like. If they spend good money on a product then that is a sincere expression of their interest in the work. Polls and surveys are one thing, but buying a product is paying good money to register your vote. Good sales of a Realms product seem as objective a standard as any for measuring the appeal of a work to Realms fans. Since Realms fandom continues to flourish and grow, and since the books are selling well, I conclude objectively that the books are of high quality. I conclude this subjectively as well, since I take great joy from each new Realms sourcebook that is published and look forward to each new one coming out. Conversely, if you don't enjoy the Realms products being published then maybe you are not a Realms fan. If a person is consistently disgusted by what the Realms authors and designers are writing, if that person doesn't support the line by buying the books and enjoying them, can you count that person truly as a Realms fan? I think not. Those are not fans of the living Realms. Those are stodgy, old Miss Havishams, pining away in faded and tattered wedding dresses, haunting dark, web-encrusted banquet halls staring at dessicated wedding cake and yearning for days long past. If one truly and consistently hates what the designers and authors are writing, then maybe it is best to find a new hobby or setting. Clearly the setting is no longer giving that person the pleasure or inciting the sense of wonder in him that it once did. If one finds little joy in the Realms then maybe its time for him to move on. The Realms is a shared world. Ed Greenwood has entrusted the Realms to WotC for the benefit of Realms fans. Ed speaks glowingly and enthusiastically about participating in creating a shared world like the Realms. Ed frequently praises the current designers and writers and the wonderful lore they have added to the Realms. The Realms is shared among Ed Greenwood and the writers and designers and the fans. There are many cooks in the kitchen, to be sure. But with any shared world, participatory world-building requires a degree of good sportsmanship. Don't be the kid on the playground that throws a tantrum, screams at all the players, then takes all his marbles and goes home. |
| miscellany02-24-07, 04:49 PM | :bow: :clap: :cheer: :dancin: :bounce: :bravo: :thumbsup: |
| MarkusTay6302-24-07, 05:04 PM | I'm not insulting Shend, up until the end of Blackstaff I loved every single thing he ever wrote. Excuse me for not understanding the ending at all. I haven't been this confused since the ending of 2001: A Space Odysey. At least Someone (Sage ?) was kind enough to explain where the Centaurs came from. The ending just seemed rushed to me; sorry, but I am entitled to my opinion. Misc, you really should stop trolling. Unlike Gray, You still have made NO point. Gray - I am a HUGE fan, but I stopped purchasing FR products (not novels) a little over a year ago, as is my right as an EDUCATED consumer. I don't feel any of the newer products are neccesary, they contain very little new material and do not fit my needs. I still pick up an occasional core book, and plan to get the new Sarlona book. I'm not an Eberron fan, far from, but I purchase what I feel I might actually use. The newer stuff may be exceptable to those that don't already have 30 years of collected lore to pull from, so by all means let them buy their re-hashed 3.x sourcebooks. I personally see a fatal business error in this way of thinking for WotC, because newer fans are attracted to the newer setting. Most FR fans have been around awhile, and would like to see something NEW and exciting for a change (aside from the mandatory yearly RSE). I know you at least agree with me on this point Gray, because I saw your post asking for new Kara-Tur stuff. We have become like the starving man in the desert, happy with whatever little juice we can suck from scraps. |
| Stigger02-24-07, 05:05 PM | Well spoken Gray |
| MarkusTay6302-24-07, 05:38 PM | Two things before I move on - 1) Is the 'City of Hope' a brand new city, or is it a new copy of a city that existed in the past? (That was another thing I 'didn't get') 2) I have every intention of buying SEVERAL copies of Brian James's book, even though it is basically a re-hash of stuff already printed. The difference betwen this and other products that re-print existing material is that it is INCREDIBLY USEFUL. I find myself referring to it AT LEAST once a day, usually more. This is the sort of thing WotC need to take note of, and I will 'vote' with my dollars. Old stuff, presented in an entirely NEW way. Plus there is a lot of new things he extrapolated from the histories himself, no small task, like the entire pre-history section. Great stuff there, I hope Wizards does it justice. Adding art (as long as its good) and a Salvatore story make it a definate no-brainer for everyone's Christmas list. They need to come out with a 'Limited Edition' version of this at a later date with leather covers, because I can see everyone's copy becoming worn and ratty in the first couple of months. :D |
| HVulpes02-24-07, 06:46 PM | I'm not insulting Shend, up until the end of Blackstaff I loved every single thing he ever wrote. Excuse me for not understanding the ending at all. I haven't been this confused since the ending of 2001: A Space Odysey. At least Someone (Sage ?) was kind enough to explain where the Centaurs came from. The ending just seemed rushed to me; sorry, but I am entitled to my opinion. Misc, you really should stop trolling. Unlike Gray, You still have made NO point. Gray - I am a HUGE fan, but I stopped purchasing FR products (not novels) a little over a year ago, as is my right as an EDUCATED consumer. I don't feel any of the newer products are neccesary, they contain very little new material and do not fit my needs. I still pick up an occasional core book, and plan to get the new Sarlona book. I'm not an Eberron fan, far from, but I purchase what I feel I might actually use. The newer stuff may be exceptable to those that don't already have 30 years of collected lore to pull from, so by all means let them buy their re-hashed 3.x sourcebooks. I personally see a fatal business error in this way of thinking for WotC, because newer fans are attracted to the newer setting. Most FR fans have been around awhile, and would like to see something NEW and exciting for a change (aside from the mandatory yearly RSE). I know you at least agree with me on this point Gray, because I saw your post asking for new Kara-Tur stuff. We have become like the starving man in the desert, happy with whatever little juice we can suck from scraps. I was going to say this on the Blackstaff spoiler thread in People section, but it also works here. If you have a question about Blackstaff, why not ask Stephen at Candlekeep? He has a page there that he answers when he can. Plus he has written about Blackstaff on it as well. You might not like the answers, but you might understand the choices made better. |
| miscellany02-24-07, 09:00 PM | Misc, you really should stop trolling. Unlike Gray, You still have made NO point. :confused: Really? I thought I made several. Maybe you should re-read the posts and man-up a little? The newer stuff may be exceptable to those that don't already have 30 years of collected lore to pull from, so by all means let them buy their re-hashed 3.x sourcebooks. I'd bet my full set of old FR lore outweighs yours any day, yet I also find the 3E books acceptable and even useful. Maybe it's because I don’t find that they constitute a rehashing of old material that I get so much use out of them? Most FR fans have been around awhile... Are you so sure? I wonder what the exact demographic of current Realmsfans who play D&D is. I'd wager new fans (those who came in to the setting with the advent of 3E) are at least equal to if not more in number than older fans. Markus I'm sorry you feel I'm trolling and I'm sorry we happen to disagree so strongly. Misc. and I both started out watching WotC with a critical eye as 3E came about and later the FRCS because we’re both big Realms fans and like everyone else we were mostly in the dark on what WotC would do. Sure we had Realms-L and WotC’s website to glean information from but even those aren’t sure sources. But with the release of the FRCS and later books we’ve come to see how WotC has kept a more or less even keel, balancing the needs of the business against the needs of the majority of the fans who purchase their products. We’re mostly happy with WotC’s stewardship (a misnomer, really, as they own the setting) of the Realms and look forward to what they have to offer in the future. :) |
| Stigger02-24-07, 09:25 PM | Dunno... the proliferation of SUV's, food that barely qualifies as such, acceptance of some remarkably strange things that are grossly unhealthy, villainizing things that certainly aren't healthy but not as unhealthy as others that are perfectly acceptable... I'd tend to share the opinion of Markus that American consumers aren't among the brightest consumers out there. Just look at cabinetry that's in pretty much every home in the country... when the glue used starts breaking down, it releases formaldehyde fumes into your home so you can happily breath them in. We're one of the very few nations where this stuff is still legal, and it's damned near impossible to avoid for the most part. But no one seems to give a damn about it, so it keeps being used... despite the known risks. And yet we villainize cigarettes that don't put out nearly as many toxins as automobiles do... I can lock myself in a garage with an engine running and die in a very short time, do the same thing with chain-smoked cigarettes for the same amount of time and maybe get a little queasy... bah. Really, I don't know if that has to do with consumer stupidity, remarkably lax government regulation, or just sheer corporate evil being perpetrated upon an unsuspecting public, but any way it goes, my goodwill towards the honorable intentions of corporate entities is a little thin right now. Which is not to say that I've seen anything that indicates WotC has done or is planning to do some great evil to the fans of the Realms, simply that I don't necessarily trust the motives behind some of the changes that have been made. Subtle difference I guess, but an important one to me. |
| Gallameed02-25-07, 01:56 AM | I use a mixture of both cozmolz (The tree is what the sages know; the wheel is the truth they hope to know) in most games it dosen't even matter as it's out of players reach, so who cares. |
| MarkusTay6302-25-07, 09:43 AM | :confused: Really? I thought I made several. Maybe you should re-read the posts and man-up a little? :bow: :clap: :cheer: :dancin: :bounce: :bravo: :thumbsup:Excellent Point! ;) I'd bet my full set of old FR lore outweighs yours any day:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Bring it. :D I also looked upon 3.x with trepedition, but was happily proven wrong where the new rules are concerned, definately a HUGE improvement. Of course, since then they started weighing it down with all the broken-rules optional cr@p that turned 2e into such a lemon. I'm still waiting on FR, they haven't ditched it yet, but I'm still expecting the axe to fall. So far they haven't really impressed me, though. Its been all same-old same-old. The last FR product that made me really stand up and applaud was LEoF, that was a masterpiece. I had high hopes that Serpent Kingdoms was going to be more like that.... :nonono: |
| Purple Dragon Knight02-25-07, 05:31 PM | After many years of hesitation and debate, I finally adopted a "Sub-Cosmologies" within a "One True Cosmology" model. Here's how it works: 1. The Great Wheel is the One True Cosmology, which include all classic planes, Sigil, the Outlands, etc. 2. Overpowers can create boundaries (i.e. Sub-Cosmologies) within the One True Cosmology to regulate travel for the inhabitants they oversee. For example, the Lady of Pain has dominion over Sigil and sets the rules for travel in and out of that plane; Ao has dominion over the Realms, and he has the shape of a gigantic tree surrounding the Prime Material Plane which contains the planet of Abeir-Toril, with his roots extending down into the Inner Planes and branches extending to the Outer Planes (sometimes two branches go to the same plane, such as the branch that goes to the Abyss and the branch that goes to the Demonweb Pit -- this create the illusion, relatively speaking, to all Faerunians that they are two separate planes, when in fact both branches go to the Abyss of the Great Wheel). Ao sets the rules for travel within his 'envelope', and creates demiplanes such as the Cynosure where gods can meet. 3. The number of Overpowers is as infinite as the number of Prime Material Planes out there. However, not each Prime Material Plane needs to have an Overpower; and some Primes can actually have multiple Overpowers, which would create multiple cosmologies for a given world, and even perhaps alternate paths for departing souls. 4. The Plane of Shadow is the only thing that can bypass an Overgod's strict boundaries, which allows travel between the Sub-Cosmologies, and therefore, within the good old Great Wheel, the One True Cosmology. The Abyss or Nine Hells that Faerunian go to is the same that is visited by the souls of Oerth (e.g. Greyhawk setting), but when Faerunians visit the place, they see different sections of those infinite planes, sections that can only visited by Faerunians. For example, if a Faerunian is in the second layer of Hell, the city of Dis, they see a different district than Oerthians; these districts could be separated by unpenetrable walls, etc. (the DM imagination can truly go wild here); in Avernus, impassable mountain ranges and chasms, or oceans of lava separate these Sub-Cosmologies. People who step out of Sigil into the same layers of Hell see something different altogether -- perhaps the 'free' or 'true' regions of Hell this time, as no Overpower controls the flow of the planes after they depart Sigil (so someone looking for Asmodeus or another of the Nine Lords of Hell might have a better chance finding it if he/she starts her journey in Sigil, as the Overpowers who have 'branches' into these planes would not want to disturb creatures that are inherent or responsible for the very natures of these planes, etc. (i.e. perhaps the reason why we rarely see these famous "D&D Core" big bosses appear in Realmslore) A little complicated, but I had to say it! |
| MarkusTay6302-27-07, 09:10 AM | Thats pretty much EXACTLY how I picture it, you just said it a little different. Mortals don't REALLY know where the planes are located, they are only aware of the paths that lead there. Literaly, "different strokes for different folks". However, since this thread started (by some idiot ;) ), I have been 'tinkering' with the wheel too. Too many redundant planes! Why do the big two, demons and devils, get one plane each, but 'loths get THREE?! I shaved my wheel down to eight planes and one central plane. Three upper (Heaven), and Three lower (Hell). Two of the 'heaven' planes have 2 layers, the central one has three (7 heavens, get it?). The lower three planes are divided into three layers each (9 Hells). ALL multi-spheric powers are located on the Wheel (demi-human pantheons mostly), and only fiends (no gods) are located in the lower planes. Limbo and Nirvana (Mechanus) are still the same, and Concodant Opposition is still identical to the outlands (minus a couple of border towns, I suppose). I've also decided good people go to one of the Heavenly layers, regardless of who they worshipped. If they were faithful their god sends them off to whichever one of the paradises most closely suits that god and worshipper. ALL evil-doers go to HELL, as it should be. Once again, someone (kelemvor?) judges them, and send them off to one of the appropriate hells. The role of Evil gods has changed in my campaign. The way I see it people turn to evil because they want rewards during their MORTAL life. Evil gods can promise them these things, and even extend their lives if they are faithful. So the idea is to be the perfect little lapdog for your evil god, and maybe he'll give you a few more decades, 'cause when you finally do go your heading straight to HELL. :devil: I figure this works better because evil types are more interested in "the here and now" then "the here-after". I just love the idea that someone who has been a rotten b@stard for centuries starts nearing the end of his 'contract', and tries to do whatever he can to get out of it. |
| Baptor05-31-07, 06:55 AM | Great Wheel - Sigil - Links to other Campaign settings = What I use |
| XHereticX06-01-07, 07:09 PM | Well said Gray, well said. And I totally agree with you on most of your points. And I like both cosmologies. Though I prefer the wheel a little more just because its neater and aesthetically more pleasurable, I use the Tree because its canon and I like to keep my campaign within the current standards for the Realms.:) |