Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Keryth 02-15-08, 03:25 PM	Well, like many on these forums, I do not like this whole Kill Mystra and the Weave and bring in the Spellplague. So, I've been thinking about how the plot is stopped and the consequences for it afterwords. All I've resolved so far, is not only will the plot be stoped in my version of the Realms (and thereby avoiding the Spellplague), but I am going to remove, my two least favorite deities in the process. (Sorry, never liked either Shar or Cyric and thought the whole Shadow Weave thing silly). I was thinking if Shar and Cryric die in the foiled plot, then of course, Mask HAS to be involved, and eprhaps the return of Leira as well (after all, we all know she's not really dead :) ) So, perhaps Lleira acquires Intrigue with her original portfolio, while Mask seizes Darkness? What about Bane? Does he qcquire anything from either deity? As for the Shadow Weave, Mystra is forced to take control of it and interweave it with the Weave, which disrupts magic in the Realms (but not on the scale WoTC is doing) and this changes how magic works in the Realms. Your thoughts, comments, ideas, criticisms?
Alediran 02-15-08, 03:28 PM	It's a good alternative line, if you want to develop it further and post it in the Realms Vault it can be put in the alternative lines sections.
Keryth 02-15-08, 03:54 PM	I might. However, what I'm looking for here is ideas and help fleshing out the idea and possibilities also, could you PM me the address for the Realms Vault again? :)
The Ubbergeek 02-15-08, 04:48 PM	:rolleyes: Oh please. Not AGAIN victory of good against evil. :rolleyes: Look, it was a part of TSR's policies and al that. Evil should win some ones, like a certain space opera movies serie. It brings dramas and roleplaying oportunities, anyway.
Alediran 02-15-08, 04:49 PM	I think I'll change my signature, because nobody finds the link :P And I hate when evil wins, it leaves a bad tase in my mouth. 3 cheers for Mystra!!! That doesn't means the "cannon" version we'll have in the Vault is going to be biased against one or the other side too much. Mystra will only be able to get the Shadow Weave while Cyric only gets a little lowered in power and probably looses a couple portfolios.
The Ubbergeek 02-15-08, 06:12 PM	I think I'll change my signature, because nobody finds the link :P And I hate when evil wins, it leaves a bad tase in my mouth. 3 cheers for Mystra!!! That doesn't means the "cannon" version we'll have in the Vault is going to be biased against one or the other side too much. Mystra will only be able to get the Shadow Weave while Cyric only gets a little lowered in power and probably looses a couple portfolios. Canon. Amusingly, greenwood pointed a few times that he'd let evil be really evil and win now and then... Fairness and realism. Good can not always, and heroism fare better in such times. More occastions to adventure, more reasons to do it. I means, The Empire Strikes Back shown what happens then perfectly. And how it can be conductive to storytelling, when the Good side is striken back, loose and all. (Note also how it is the prefered and 'better' movie of the whole serie, BTW).
Grinning_Flagg 02-15-08, 06:26 PM	Sounds a little dull, once again the heroes triumph of the bumbling evildoers. I agree with The Ubbergeek but its your game so heres my take on it. To start things off Mystra has to become aware of a plot against her, Savras learning of it through Divination is boring so lets do something else. I believe that Velsharoon would have been recruited by Shar so Cyric could access Dweomerheart, Velshroon doesn't like Cyric and really shouldn't trust Shar so rather then staying out of it or betraying his current allies he informs Mystra of a plot between Cyric and Shar to curry favor. Mystra would have to get other gods involved to find out more, particularly gods that have a closer relationship with Shar. Bane is the best candidate, as much as he hates Mystra, the possibility of weakening or destroying Cyric is too good of an opportunity to pass by, Mask would also find his way into the plot as an ally of Bane and having the plane of shadows as his homeplane. Bane would get closer to Shar while spreading rumors that something is going to happen involving himself and Shar. No doubt Cyric would hear of this and confront Shar about it. At this point Mask will let in several gods allied with Mystra, lets say Kelemvor, Sune, and several lesser gods I don't really know and maybe a few Chosen for good measure. When the gods ambush the two, Cyric comes to the immediate conclusion that Shar purposely lured him here and allied herself with these gods to destroy him and immediately attacks her. The other gods quickly lay into them, the wounded and bewildered Shar fends off their blows, Cyric sees no way to win this conflict and it dawns on him that maybe she didn't turn against him as the other gods are concentrating their effort on Shar. Cyric withdraws from the battle and starts to flee the plane, but is cut down by Mask in the form of Godsbane from behind who is quick to absorb his Portfolio while gloating over his corpse. Shar is overwhelmed by the other gods and eventually falls, but takes a couple of her attackers down with her. When Shar does die she simply winks out of existence, either the shadowweave collapses or merges with the weave. The gods and Chosen leave after confirming that Shar is no longer. Much later on, a drooling Shadovar girl is bestowed with the Portfolio of Shar as is always the case in FR. The new Shar would be different then the old, a tad less evil and not so many enemies.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-15-08, 07:11 PM	:rolleyes: Oh please. Not AGAIN victory of good against evil. :rolleyes: Look, it was a part of TSR's policies and al that. Evil should win some ones, like a certain space opera movies serie. It brings dramas and roleplaying oportunities, anyway. Evil DOES already win in the Realms. I mean, is it going to get to the point where any victory for good is objectionable? That being said, I will say that even though I'm not going to kill off Mystra in my Realms, I'm not going to kill off Cyric or Shar, either. Got plans for them, and though I've complained about them, they are part of the setting for me.
The_Shaman 02-15-08, 08:27 PM	Evil DOES already win in the Realms. I mean, is it going to get to the point where any victory for good is objectionable? That being said, I will say that even though I'm not going to kill off Mystra in my Realms, I'm not going to kill off Cyric or Shar, either. Got plans for them, and though I've complained about them, they are part of the setting for me. Shar perhaps, but the day Cyric sees the tip of Stealthwhisper protruding out of his chest should be a holiday imo.
GothicDan 02-15-08, 10:29 PM	To anyone whos's viewing this as Good vs. Evil: I hope you guys don't go into philosophy. That being said, I would love to see Cyric slaughtered. But I don't want Shar to die - as much as she's been overexposed lately, she's as much of the Realms as Mystra is to me.
Lord Karsus 02-16-08, 07:06 AM	-Shar dying would probably have dire consequences on the Crystal Sphere. Perhaps her death triggers the release of Dendar the Night Serpent, to consume the world? -And, how ironic would that be? The only way for Shar to get what she wants- nothingness- is for her to die, thus causing her never to see the results.
Alediran 02-16-08, 08:13 AM	Yeah, that would be really ironic.
XHereticX 02-16-08, 02:03 PM	To anyone whos's viewing this as Good vs. Evil: I hope you guys don't go into philosophy. That being said, I would love to see Cyric slaughtered. But I don't want Shar to die - as much as she's been overexposed lately, she's as much of the Realms as Mystra is to me. Totally agree with you here. Cyric is just a nuisence that I woudn't miss at all, but Shar is like the anti-Mystra, and killing her would likely have similar consequences for Faerun.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 02:15 PM	We both know that Shar is the Anti-Selune. ;) I REALLY dislike how WotC magnified the Shar vs. Mystra thing a thousandfold and ignored the Selune vs. Shar conflict that's been around for ages.
XHereticX 02-16-08, 02:20 PM	We both know that Shar is the Anti-Selune. ;) I REALLY dislike how WotC magnified the Shar vs. Mystra thing a thousandfold and ignored the Selune vs. Shar conflict that's been around for ages. Problem is, Selune sort of sunk to the level of Mystra's lackey and let the younger deity essentially subvert her role. Now that Mystra's gone however, this will change.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 02:22 PM	Selune's remained a very influential deity, and active. She was always one of the most powerful Intermediate deities, in my opinion, and in 2E at least she was never viewed as Mystra's subservient, and there were already hints her power was waxing again. That's the thing - she waned and waxed, naturally, as the moon, but she was as perennial a part of Faerun as Shar.
XHereticX 02-16-08, 02:25 PM	Selune's remained a very influential deity, and active. She was always one of the most powerful Intermediate deities, in my opinion, and in 2E at least she was never viewed as Mystra's subservient, and there were already hints her power was waxing again. That's the thing - she waned and waxed, naturally, as the moon, but she was as perennial a part of Faerun as Shar. Actually, correct that, F&P stated that she became a handmaiden to Sune, not Mystra. But eventually her power came back more or less.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 02:27 PM	I believe it wasn't until N:EoM came out that Selune was described as ever having been a subordinate of Sune. Which I think is dumb anyway. Even during her lowest times (I would assume low Intermediate), I wouldn't have her SERVING another.
Keryth 02-16-08, 02:45 PM	OK, for those of you saying this would be another Good beats evil thing for the Realms, I guess you missed the fact where I said it's Mask and Lleira who defeat Shar and Cyric. Mystra is saved as a byproduct of Mask getting Vengeance and Lleira ending her greatest Illusion. My reason for this idea is two-fold. First, I do not like th Spellplague or the death of Mystra. Second, I've never liked Cyric or Shar. So, I kill two birds with one stone. The idea is to give Mask the Darkness portfolio, give Lleira the Intrigue portfolio, and spread the rest out over other deities. And also to get rid of the stupid Shadow Weave (not a fan of that either) while instituting the change in magic that WoTC claims is needed for 4th Ed. So, while Mystra is saved, its two evil gods or least neutral gods, who get rid of Shar and Cyric. And, even if it is Good over Evil, so what? Thats the way it should be. Evil looses to Good. And for those of you who bring up Empire Strikes Back, it is my least favorite of the original Star Wars Trilogy (the Original Star Wars is my favorite)
Grinning_Flagg 02-16-08, 04:10 PM	I don't see how any of that could be done by Mask and Leira alone. I mean we are talking about Shar here.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 04:11 PM	Shar, Plot Armor +10. Though I do still agree she's too old, powerful, and experienced to be so fully tricked, even by Mask and Leira. Mind you, I don't like Mask much, but I do like Leira.
Alediran 02-16-08, 05:13 PM	Yes, but you never know when Torm and other gods are secretly helping both to damage two of the most powerful evil gods. It's a no brainer than somebody will help them. Lathander without doubt, Corellon is probable (hates Cyric with a passion)
Grinning_Flagg 02-16-08, 05:27 PM	Everyone hates Cyric with a passion, even Shar probably hates him as well. I posted a plausible way to go about this above, I don't know about Leira but I could see Bane wielding Mask as Godsbane, the two would then split his Portfolio. Just add that thought if you read my first post since I'm not sure Mask can do much in that form unless someone is using him.
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 07:10 PM	Add Selune and Lathander to helping destroy Shar and you win.
Kiioro 02-16-08, 09:13 PM	Somehow, I couldn't care less about Shar or Mystra. Yes, Shar has that thing-- sexy young woman that is sexier because she is nucking futs (like Beshaba). But somehow, those two goddesses (Shar / Mystra) even when they are most important to Faerūn... I, at best, say "meh". Cyric is that childish-but-grown-man that I love to hate. If you planned to kill him, I think that for the sake of balance, you should have a non-creationist greater deity who loves intricate plots of backstabbing and intrigue to take his place (ascend a lower ranked, or just create one, if you're already going to skip the canon...). About the spellplague, who lives and who dies... until I have read the 4E books I'll be able to say something I'm convinced of. ...Is it just me or do Selune and Mystra's depictions look like they were modeled after trannies?
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 09:18 PM	http://www.o-love.net/realms/covers_large/pic_ava4.jpg I like this version.
Lord Karsus 02-17-08, 09:20 AM	I like this version. -Mystra is Elvyra, and Cyric seems to be a heroine junkie? Well, whatever floats your boat. ;)
GothicDan 02-17-08, 11:48 AM	Well, Cyric certainly does seem like some sort of junkie.
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 01:58 PM	Cyric actually looks more like he's been in the tanning booth for six months.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-17-08, 06:44 PM	We both know that Shar is the Anti-Selune. ;) I REALLY dislike how WotC magnified the Shar vs. Mystra thing a thousandfold and ignored the Selune vs. Shar conflict that's been around for ages. I totally agree with that. Although, there is some great Shar vs. Selune conflict in the novel Mistress of the Night (though I'm aware that you, Dan, do not read the novels much).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-17-08, 06:47 PM	And, even if it is Good over Evil, so what? Thats the way it should be. Evil looses to Good. And for those of you who bring up Empire Strikes Back, it is my least favorite of the original Star Wars Trilogy (the Original Star Wars is my favorite) I will say that if people prefer to read about evil overcoming good all the time, and want to read about protagonists who die horrible, pointless deaths, then their interest in the Forgotten Realms setting is more than a bit weird.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-17-08, 06:50 PM	-Mystra is Elvyra, and Cyric seems to be a heroine junkie? And a transvestite. :rofl:
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 06:50 PM	I will say that if people prefer to read about evil overcoming good all the time, and want to read about protagonists who die horrible, pointless deaths, then their interest in the Forgotten Realms setting is more than a bit weird. Actually, my biggest problem is that uninteresting evil often triumphs over good. For me, Return of the Archwizards stunk because it was a bunch of mindless and overblown wizards getting the better of pretty much everyone. Yet, simultaneously, Artemis Entreri deserved at least one conclusive victory over Drizzt. For me, I'd personally love to see intelligent and charismatic evil doers win over either their fellow evil or the occasional dumb bad guys. Riven is certainly a case where the "bad guy" is interesting. Also, I loved when Fzoul conquered Hillsfar because it was nice to see the Zhents scare the **** out of people. Say what you will, but Kymil Nemsin I don't mind winning on occasion because the Moonflower family and the elves are so damn smug in their righteousness that its nice to see them taken down a peg or two.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-17-08, 06:54 PM	Actually, my biggest problem is that uninteresting evil often triumphs over good. For me, Return of the Archwizards stunk because it was a bunch of mindless and overblown wizards getting the better of pretty much everyone. Yet, simultaneously, Artemis Entreri deserved at least one conclusive victory over Drizzt. For me, I'd personally love to see intelligent and charismatic evil doers win over either their fellow evil or the occasional dumb bad guys. Riven is certainly a case where the "bad guy" is interesting. Also, I loved when Fzoul conquered Hillsfar because it was nice to see the Zhents scare the **** out of people. Say what you will, but Kymil Nemsin I don't mind winning on occasion because the Moonflower family and the elves are so damn smug in their righteousness that its nice to see them taken down a peg or two. Charles, much like you I enjoy interesting bad guys.:) And I can think of villains who I think should stick around, simply because they make great bad guys. But I get a bit wary and impatient with complaints about good winning over evil, mainly because--as I said before--I wonder at what point any victories for good are going to be considered "objectionable". And the FR setting is, after all, meant to be a setting for heroic fantasy. In the novels, the "good guys" tend not to be too vunerable, and yes, they usually win (though they may not get a complete victory).
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 07:00 PM	A lot of it has to do with how Stock some of the heroes have been, I think. But yes, I doubt that most of "good over evil" victories are really coming from an informed point anymore since 3E.
Alediran 02-18-08, 06:15 AM	Say what you will, but Kymil Nemsin I don't mind winning on occasion because the Moonflower family and the elves are so damn smug in their righteousness that its nice to see them taken down a peg or two. :mage: You are going to get a Tel'Quessir army at your back sir. And the new Akh'Faern of Myth Drannor is under my command.
GothicDan 02-18-08, 07:24 AM	Eh, I still kinda' like Kymil, myself. :)
Alediran 02-18-08, 07:53 AM	As a villain is very good (couldn't expect any better from Elaine), but Charles' comments on our people and ruling family are way of the mark, and this comes from a Sun Elf who has Durothil and Moonflower blood in his veins.
GothicDan 02-18-08, 08:37 AM	Pshhtt. Silly Moon Elven blood... ;) There's a reason I'm Lawful Neutral. While I don't -agree- with the Eldreth Veluuthra.......
Alediran 02-18-08, 08:40 AM	I have royal blood in me. And blood of the noblest kind. And The Artblade recognizes me as Spell-Major of Cormanthor.
GothicDan 02-18-08, 08:42 AM	Of course. I see the blue in your skin tone, there. ;)
Alediran 02-18-08, 08:46 AM	I'm Ar'Tel'Quessir. But I have many friends both Tel'Quessir and N'Tel'Quessir.
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 09:01 AM	Eh, I still kinda' like Kymil, myself. :) It's a shame there isn't more written on him. Perhaps Reclaimation will have a few bits.
Keryth 02-18-08, 09:17 AM	I don't see how any of that could be done by Mask and Leira alone. I mean we are talking about Shar here. I don;t see how any of what WoTC said happens, could be done by Cyric and Shar. I mean, we are talking about Mystra here
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 09:27 AM	I don;t see how any of what WoTC said happens, could be done by Cyric and Shar. I mean, we are talking about Mystra here -Both Shar and Cyric are on par with Mystra. In my opinion, Cyric should be nocked down a little, but Shar should be given a little extra.
MaskedOne 02-18-08, 11:13 AM	While I don't -agree- with the Eldreth Veluuthra....... Good to know, one of their agents is about to open something that they really shouldn't. I prefer you not getting caught in the aftermath. Genocidal maniacs really shouldn't tamper with old ruins. Eh well, I gave fair warning and if they choose not to believe that a mere human (well, once long ago anyway) knows what he's talking about then I won't feel compelled to clean up after them. That entity shouldn't be too much of a threat to the rest of the world. I still know how to cage it and it hasn't had enough food to get really nasty in several millennia. On topic sort of, I don't trust Shar to stay dead if killed and if she returns it might be at full strength. Crippling her is more appropriate. Cyric can be dismembered.
GothicDan 02-18-08, 12:52 PM	That's actually a good point about Shar. If killed, if returned to nothingness, who's to say she won't become more POWERFUL?
MaskedOne 02-18-08, 12:59 PM	There's probably a way to make it permanent just not one that can be accomplished quickly that I trust. Easier to modify Karsus Avatar slightly and use it with Mystra's blessing. Divide up Shar's power among proxies and force them into battle against beings who can drain them. 6 hours should give me the time and the right modifications will allow Mystra to bring me back after the spell ends. When I'm done Shar ends out around DvR2 with the portfolio of loss in hands the I trust so she can't try and feed on that portfolio. I have access to the ritual and Chauntea is willing to make sure that Shar can't find me, Mystra just won't support the spell pre-modification and I'm not into final death yet. LK and I were concluding negotiations on his aid in modifying the ritual.
GothicDan 02-18-08, 01:01 PM	Eh, if I was the DM, I wouldn't let it work. :) Selune, Mystra, Chauntea, and Shar - in my Realms, those are the ones that are there to stay. All of the rest are negotiable.
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 01:03 PM	That's actually a good point about Shar. If killed, if returned to nothingness, who's to say she won't become more POWERFUL? -Unless she can somehow embrace undeath, as Orcus did, I can't really envision such a scenario. She'd be, dead, after all. But, paradoxical as it seems, as I mentioned before, Shar's death could result in her furthering her goals. I don't think she'd be able to benefit from it, though. -An interesting question to pose for Ed, methinks.
MaskedOne 02-18-08, 01:03 PM	Eh, if I was the DM, I wouldn't let it work. Selune, Mystra, Chauntea, and Shar - in my Realms, those are the ones that are there to stay. All of the rest are negotiable. Neither would I but I also wouldn't let Shar and Cyric deal lasting death to Mystra on her home plane. Since WotC is ignoring sanity, I'm following suite. Anyway Shar will survive the process, like I said I don't trust her to stay dead. I just intend to weaken her for a couple millennia.
The_Shaman 02-18-08, 06:04 PM	That's actually a good point about Shar. If killed, if returned to nothingness, who's to say she won't become more POWERFUL? If you strike her down... Hmm, this sounds familiar.
Rauric 02-18-08, 07:57 PM	OK, for those of you saying this would be another Good beats evil thing for the Realms, I guess you missed the fact where I said it's Mask and Lleira who defeat Shar and Cyric. Mystra is saved as a byproduct of Mask getting Vengeance and Lleira ending her greatest Illusion. My reason for this idea is two-fold. First, I do not like th Spellplague or the death of Mystra. Second, I've never liked Cyric or Shar. So, I kill two birds with one stone. The idea is to give Mask the Darkness portfolio, give Lleira the Intrigue portfolio, and spread the rest out over other deities. And also to get rid of the stupid Shadow Weave (not a fan of that either) while instituting the change in magic that WoTC claims is needed for 4th Ed. So, while Mystra is saved, its two evil gods or least neutral gods, who get rid of Shar and Cyric. And, even if it is Good over Evil, so what? Thats the way it should be. Evil looses to Good. And for those of you who bring up Empire Strikes Back, it is my least favorite of the original Star Wars Trilogy (the Original Star Wars is my favorite) I had that Mask plot in the back of my mind for a while. I think Kemp may have something similar in mind with his novels. I just would not have the gods die. Losing some power to those two gods is enough to balance the tables.
The_Shaman 02-19-08, 01:13 AM	Of those three, Cyric is imo the one who should lose power, not Mystra. His rise to power was nothing short of meteoric, for crying out loud - and most of his portfolios were either minor (madness) or heavily contested (illusions or intrugue). At least Midnight/Mystra is a successor of a divine post that has existed for, well, millenia. Shar is a primordial deity as well, and it makes sense that she be strong - but the Shadow Weave never struck me as a good idea, it wasn't rationalized/explained well either, and it's Mystra's turf anyway (when did Shar become an expert on magic?).
buzzard 02-19-08, 06:11 AM	when did Shar become an expert on magic?. Maybe since the very beginning when she was throwing magic around (together with Selūne, Chauntea and even other deities that existed before Mystryl) without any interface like the Weave (something that's harder to do), all those deities probably accessed RAW magic and considering the things that deities can do, they probably can still do it. Not to mention that Mystryl/Mystra is what she is partly because of Shar, maybe the origin of that portion of power is almost as good (if not equal considering that she did create her own "equivalent" of the Weave) in the magic department as the byproduct.
Soltares 02-22-08, 12:20 PM	Selune, Mystra, Chauntea, and Shar - in my Realms, those are the ones that are there to stay. All of the rest are negotiable. Back in 2E, I would have agreed with Mystra and Chauntea. Shar wasn't terribly active in 2E (it was all Bane, with occasional bits of Bhaal and Myrkul, for the evil-god-doings, Shar, like Beshaba, just kinda sat around holding up their placards, 'evil, will work for food'). Then they started killing off Mystra every couple of years, and she just doesn't feel that integral to the setting any longer. If she was all big and important, presumably she'd last longer than a pair of pants. Shar has finally had something done with her in 3rd edition, even if it was kinda dubious. Selune is still a big old nobody. Her *worshippers* seem to be up to all sorts of stuff, but she's the god of what, good-aligned lycanthropes (all three of them) and navigators (are there any seafaring nations in the realms?) and twinkly lights in the sky. Rah. She's got squiffier portfolios than Eilistraee, Goddess of Violent Elven Women who Ran Away From Their Abusive Homes and Kill Anyone who Sees Them Dancing Around Nekkid with Broadswords, But Aren't Evil, Not Really... One way to keep Mystra around, sorta, kinda, without having Mystra v5.0 rise up like a poorly-digested bit of ham, would be to have her start to grow anew within Selune. Perhaps, just in time for 5th edition, she might fly fully grown out of Selune like Athena from Zeus, or the essence of goddess of magic might return to Selune, and Selune and Shar become the twin goddesses of magic. Selune and Shar both become beefier and more meaningful, and become, in sweet, sweet irony, interconnected by their shared portfolio, and forced to work together.
Meldread 02-24-08, 09:09 PM	Soltares- I laughed hysterically at your post, and I think by and large you are on the mark. I loved (and still love) the concept of the Weave. I even loved (and still love) the concept of the Shadow Weave. My problem with Mystra, well one of them anyway, was how she was put out there in the middle of the setting as the end-all-be-all goddess of preemptive goodness. Of course, she wasn't exactly allowed to be good, she just happened to have a hundred thousand uber powerful mortals that could crush entire nations in their sleep, shoot flame from their finger tips, and fart lightning in her service... but still. Mystra's prominence took away from all of the other deities that were, in my opinion, at the very least equally interesting. The deity that suffered the most was Selune as was pointed out earlier in the thread. With Mystra being so powerful the conflict between Shar and Selune became a conflict between Mystra and Shar. Selune was downgraded to a secondary role in the conflict - if she could even claim to be that. Both Selune and Shar are at the very least two of the most ancient deities in the entire setting. Mystryl (Mystra v1) died during the time of Netheril. Mystra v2, who literally was a mentally retarded farm girl who got lucky, proved that she was in fact mentally retarded when Helm killed her during the Time of Troubles. Mystra v3, who has been the Mystra most of us have known for so long, has only been around for what... almost 40 game years when she is killed? When I heard about 4E I had hope Selune would end up taking Mystra's place. Then there could have been a real interesting conflict with the Weave vs the Shadow Weave, good magic vs evil magic, and Selune could finally find a key place within the setting instead of just a background prop. Sigh. It does not seem that will happen at all. As for evil in the Forgotten Realm's... most of the animosity toward the good aligned characters stems back from the days of TSR. They had a policy that clearly stated that evil must never win... ever. It often lead toward villains that were subpar at best, laughable at worst - and the worst was more common than not. Under Wizards and 3E some of that began to change but the legacy is still there. Additionally, modern fantasy has shifted. Readers expect different things, and the Tolkien carbon copy worlds of the past are starting to be left behind. People are embracing the works of authors such as George R. R. Martin, who writes much more realistic characters who are neither good nor evil, but who are just simply human. He also has a penchant for killing off beloved characters if it fits the story. It is likely that had he been writing for the Forgotten Realm's Elminster would have died in Hell, and it would have been described in gory details. The Simbul would probably be revealed to be what she truly is - a Tyrant over Aglarond, and likely waged a war with Thay that crippled and killed her people. Frankly, I've embraced that type of fantasy, mostly because I've grown bored with Tolkien-type worlds. It is not a love of evil that most people seek, but a love of human characters with flaws and real tribulations that they sometimes fail to overcome. Most of the main characters from the FR setting are Mary Sue types, who even if killed find a way back to life. That is likely what will happen to Mystra. She will be brought back within five months time after the release of the new setting, either in a major epic novel or a huge mega adventure.
Alediran 02-25-08, 07:11 AM	Meldread, I have no problem with a kind of setting like you describe. I play WoD to have something like that. That doesn't means the Realms should be changed to fit that model because the Realms are another thing. WotC would have been wiser if they decided to make a new setting based around those characteristics, or resurrect Ravenloft. The Realms are what they are and that is the reason it is the most succesful RPG Setting, the things you described you like aren't compatible with the Realms, I want a setting that is not dark and depressing, because I already have WoD and the Real World for that. D&D is about adventure, exploration and a mixture of light-hearted fun and desperate moments, but not just one of those things, a dark and depressing world takes the light-hearted fun of the picture, and there are no other games with that, taking it out of D&D (represented in Forgotten Realms) would extinguish that last bastion. Why do you want to change the realms instead of changing the setting you play?
GothicDan 02-25-08, 09:46 AM	The Realms are what they are Exactly. People are attracted to artistic endeavors based largely on personal preference. If you change the art of a setting, you are sure to change the people attracted to it. I adore dark settings - I've played Shadowrun and WoD for ages. But I like the balanced Good vs. Evil of Faerun (once you manage to see through all of the grit that both TSR and WotC has piled upon it, like the endless promotional Chosen BS). I am more likely to respect a setting and its creators for what it is, by leaving it as similar as possible to original theme and exploring alternative settings, than mutilating what it was meant to be. That's personal choice. It's probably the Libertarian in me. :)
Meldread 02-25-08, 10:31 AM	We all change the Realm's to make it more in tune with our own tastes. I'm certainly not on board with the changes by Wizard's. They are too drastic and destroy the core of the setting. However, the concept that I believe many overlook is the simple fact that without villains there are no heroes. In order to give rise to feelings of accomplishment when defeated a villain must be a creditable threat. That means that sometimes they must win in order to solidify the fact that sometimes the heroes fail. The setting has a huge number of villains but only a handful are truly creditable. The Zhents, for example, are as much of a joke as Cyric. Though they've had some recent successes, it is hard to overlook their constant stream of past failures and to look at these successes as simple flukes. It is hard to take them seriously as either DM or player. Additionally, a characters motivation must make sense - they must be human. Evil for the sake of evil is shallow, as is good for the sake of good. The heroes should not be the epitome of goodness and virtue and must have flaws that undermine them in whatever quest they undertake. There is nothing wrong with a hero striving to be good and virtuous, but any real mortal will never be successful and that in and of itself is a flaw. Villains should not be there simply for the heroes to beat up and defeat. They should have real motivations - motivations that make sense. Killing for the sake of killing and destruction for the sake of destruction is not the mark of sane individuals. Evil individuals may know how they are perceived by others, but more often than not, they do not see themselves as evil. Everyone tries to justify his or her actions, no matter how virtuous or vile. Your typical hero will be neither good nor evil but somewhere in the middle. One sides hero can easily be the other sides villain. It is in the shades of gray that stories become the most believable and the best stories are told. It is where all sides of a conflict are both equally right and wrong in their actions. It is not about evil or darkness it is about moral neutrality, where the characters walk out from the shallow end of the pool to seek something deeper and more meaningful. The Realm's is filled with villains and heroes who could never exist as real people, and are difficult to relate to because they are unbelievable. 4E does nothing to correct this fact, and from all we've learned so far, it seems they have only exacerbated it.
Alediran 02-25-08, 10:40 AM	I agree with your post Meldread, but for settings that are like WoD. I want my Realms just like they are, with sillines (by your oppinion) and things that can't be possible in Real Life because when I play the Realms I want to be in a place that is different from Real Life and when I want to play in a place that resembles Real World I play WoD. Not every game setting should be like what you described, or it would be the same playing in setting X or Y. It's the differences that made them interesting, I want different colors for different things, not black and white for everything. I get bored when I eat the same thing two times in a row, just as I get bored with repetitive work. Life is to be explored by it's differences.
Soltares 02-25-08, 11:48 AM	When I ran the Realms (back in 2E, 'cause the Time of Troubles nuked my interest in the setting and we went back to Greyhawk), the Zhents seemed to be bumbling keystone cops in canon, constantly being blowed up and their Keep-city razed, year after year after year by giants, dragons, gods, ******-off extraplanar entities, and the inevitable civil war, in one case, apparently a 'civil war' between a single character and his clones! The Cult of the Dragon were similar bumpkins, regularly losing multiple dracoliches in a single afternoon to some 6th level chickie with Spellfire. Go fearsome losers! Nodwick could probably spend a weekend destroying their organization. But Thay seemed a credible bad-guy. They managed to escape being portrayed as hapless buffons in 2nd edition, until 3rd edition had a sea change and presented them with embassies in various lands that (Gasp! The sheer evil horror!) used their embassy status to sell cheap magic items, avoid trade tariffs and undercut local markets. Yeah, okay, Wal-Mart is 'evil,' it's a cute joke. But I absolutely scoff at the notion of using the Red Wizards of Wal-Mart in my game. Were I to use the setting again, I'd have to rewrite all three of these organizations to make them believable threats to good people everywhere. Zhentil Keep would de facto rule over Hillsfar, Mulmaster, etc. and control most of the Bloodstone Lands, using humanoids from the Grey Lands as shock troops. Thay would have serious political clout in Mulhurand, and Thayvian agents would stir up unrest in Chessenta and Unther, while also keeping the Simbul locked down putting out fires in Aglarond through a combination of magical terrorism and political intrigue, while having an uneasy cease-fire with Rasheman, after an open conflict between the two proved to be unpleasant for both sides. The Cult of the Dragon would have ties to dragons all over the world, and include many Pact-Bound Adepts and Dragonblooded humanoids, who think themselves to be tapping into the power of dragons, while the dragons think that they are manipulating the humans (and others) to create new magics for them. The Dracolich process would indeed have been developed by Sammaster, but at the urgings of an aging dragon patriarch whose body was ravaged by unspecified ailments. Becoming a dracolich was the ideal solution, and Sammaster had to become a lich himself just in the name of research! Some of the younger dragons in the network are indeed used as fodder by the higher-ups among the human leadership, but since the human leadership is completely in the thrall of the draconic and dracolich 'Bone Council,' the power behind the Cult's 'throne,' has slitted eyes. Zhentil Keep is suddenly a serious threat to the Dalelands, who are kept bickering and unable to unite seriously against the threat by agents provocateur, and Sembia & Cormyr do their best to lend aid and attempt to prevent the Zhents from taking the Dalelands with their machinations, the way that they have taken Hillsfar, Mulmaster, etc. Technically, Hillsfar and Mulmaster are 'independent cities,' but they are as 'independent' as protectorate 'nations,' always doing what they are told by their 'patrons.' Thay is a theat to Aglarond, and there's good reason why the Simbul can't just wander over and blow up Zhentil Keep the next time she gets a wild hair. She's busy. Her own people question her leadership, as all of these 'bad things keep happening' and 'why can't she protect them?' and 'maybe if she wasn't always provoking Thay, things would be better...' which is exactly the way the Thayvians like it. Are the Zulkirs a perfectly functioning machine? Certainly not, and the only reason they haven't openly moved on Aglarond is that *they don't want to.* They want to conquer Mulhurand, as they have a long-standing grudge with the nation of their birth. Aglarond is a pesky neighbor that they'd conquer if that was their goal (possibly at much greater cost than they'd initially suspect, but it would be inevitable as the Simbul, for all her power, would not be able to stand against even two or three of the Zulkirs together in personal combat, let alone all eight, and Thay's armies are vastly superior to Aglaronds, in both numbers *and* quality, as Aglarond is not exactly a military machine...).
Charles Phipps 02-25-08, 01:15 PM	I agree with Soltares.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-25-08, 02:00 PM	If the Realms was once a place without credible bad guys (and I'm not saying I agree that it ever was like that), it certainly hasn't been that way for a long time. People who think good wins too often must have missed a lot of the recent novels (and I don't just mean the ones designed with the Spellplague in mind).
Keryth 02-25-08, 02:45 PM	If the Realms was once a place without credible bad guys (and I'm not saying I agree that it ever was like that), it certainly hasn't been that way for a long time. People who think good wins too often must have missed a lot of the recent novels (and I don't just mean the ones designed with the Spellplague in mind). I agree with Rinonalyrna. Then again, the Zhents were never anything but EVIL in my campaigns. Same with the Cult of the Dragon. And I always thought the Thayan Enclave idea dumb, so I ignored it. Just as I will be doing with most of the New Realms. Then again, TBH, my Realms not been canon for some time now.
Meldread 02-25-08, 03:36 PM	Rinonalyrna- You've indirectly pointed out the problem. "People who think good wins too often must have missed a lot of the recent novels..." Those are recent novels. We're talking about over the lifetime of the Forgotten Realm's, most of which was under TSR. TSR had a strict policy when it came to evil in the Realm's which is why Cyric is such an idiot, and the Zhents and such are more often than not viewed as incompetent organizations. Many of the problems people have with the current setting can mostly be directly linked to TSR.
GothicDan 02-25-08, 03:54 PM	I despise overkill. "Extreme positions are not succeeded by moderate ones, but by contrary extreme positions." If we keep perpetuating extremities by doing the opposite of the previous era, we'll never reach a good middle ground. After 5 more years of evil winning, when memories of 1E and much of 2E are gone in the modern gaming population, what are they going to be saying about post-apocalyptic FR? SO QUIT IT PEOPLE.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-25-08, 04:20 PM	Those are recent novels. We're talking about over the lifetime of the Forgotten Realm's, most of which was under TSR. TSR had a strict policy when it came to evil in the Realm's which is why Cyric is such an idiot, and the Zhents and such are more often than not viewed as incompetent organizations. Many of the problems people have with the current setting can mostly be directly linked to TSR. Even then, novels don't show us the whole picture. If Zhents truly were "idiots", how would they ever have become a credible threat? And as I've pointed out before, novels tend to be about good guys overcoming bad guys in this setting (and in most fantasy settings, for that matter)--the fact that the more recent FR novels seem to be "in love with" darker heroes and more "gritty" situations just goes to show that there is some overkill at work here, as Dan pointed out.
Lord Karsus 02-25-08, 04:27 PM	I despise overkill. "Extreme positions are not succeeded by moderate ones, but by contrary extreme positions." If we keep perpetuating extremities by doing the opposite of the previous era, we'll never reach a good middle ground. After 5 more years of evil winning, when memories of 1E and much of 2E are gone in the modern gaming population, what are they going to be saying about post-apocalyptic FR? SO QUIT IT PEOPLE. -Speaking of extremes, I was just watching a documentary on the Westboro Baptist Church. Sickening...:nonono:
Keryth 02-25-08, 04:37 PM	Rinonalyrna- You've indirectly pointed out the problem. Those are recent novels. We're talking about over the lifetime of the Forgotten Realm's, most of which was under TSR. TSR had a strict policy when it came to evil in the Realm's which is why Cyric is such an idiot, and the Zhents and such are more often than not viewed as incompetent organizations. Many of the problems people have with the current setting can mostly be directly linked to TSR. And still I ask, what is WRONG with Evil losing? Evil does NOT equal cool
Meldread 02-25-08, 05:00 PM	Keryth- Because it is hard to play in a setting full of heroes and villains that you, as a player, know is incompetent. I have to compare the majority of the villains in FR to Doctor Evil and his Entourage from the Austin Powers movies. They seem to be there for comic relief rather than to cause serious problems, and when they do actually cause serious problems it seems out of character for them to do so.
Keryth 02-25-08, 05:33 PM	Well, let's take stock of Evil in the Realms then, shall we? :) We have the drow, doing their plots and schemes throughout the Underdark and in the forest of Cormanthor. Never really saw them as portrayed as incompetent. They may lose, their plots fail, but never saw thme as buffoons The Zhents - Well, Fzoul has conquered a fair part of the Moonsea region now. Their power is growing, they've allied with Mulmaster now, and have been working to keep their trade routes through Anauroch with Shade there. The Shades - Netheril returns. Even if I HATE the Shadow Weave, they make good bad guys The Cult of the Dragon - Never been more than medieval terrorists with Dracoliches instead of Suicide bombs. Still reeling a bit from shandril's wrath, but still viable The Red Wizards - The Enclaves are lame, we mostly agree on that, but still the best evil guys the Realms has going. Thats just a few. Yes, I'll admit that TSR made some look incompetent (how many Zhent mages did Manshoon throw at Shandril again? and how many went after Elminster and the Rangers Three during the ToT?) But, they're less Dr. Evil and more Ernst Stavro Bloefeld if you ask me.
Charles Phipps 02-25-08, 05:52 PM	And as I've pointed out before, novels tend to be about good guys overcoming bad guys in this setting (and in most fantasy settings, for that matter)--the fact that the more recent FR novels seem to be "in love with" darker heroes and more "gritty" situations just goes to show that there is some overkill at work here, as Dan pointed out. I feel that a lot of the problems in the recent books have been the fact that "Classic" villains have been ignored in favor of the Shades. Frankly, I find the Shades to be boring and they get Return of the Archwizards, The Twilight Series, and the Reborn Netheril. However, bluntly, I will never consider them remotely as credible as the Thayans or Zhents. This is despite they're overwhelmingly powerful. They're vapid, shallow, and uninteresting by comparison to the more detailed Ed Greenwood Classics. I loved Fzoul Chembryl conquering Hillsfar and his successes in 3E plus Cloak and Dagger with Orgauth but while the Zhents have been the subject of the best rehabilitation, we haven't seen something similiar for the Thayans whom constantly got their asses handed to them by the Rashi and the Simbul. Seriously, I love Silverfall but Red Wizards are not Orcs and should never be Spell-Fodder. Spellfire was a great book but it was largely a joke because Shandril slaughtered huge amounts of awesome and overwhelming villains. It was like Gord the Rogue slaying 40,000 Tanar'ri in one stroke.
GothicDan 02-25-08, 06:00 PM	I feel that a lot of the problems in the recent books have been the fact that "Classic" villains have been ignored in favor of the Shades. Frankly, I find the Shades to be boring and they get Return of the Archwizards, The Twilight Series, and the Reborn Netheril. Agree 100% doubleplussupergood.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-25-08, 06:22 PM	Keryth- Because it is hard to play in a setting full of heroes and villains that you, as a player, know is incompetent. I have to compare the majority of the villains in FR to Doctor Evil and his Entourage from the Austin Powers movies. They seem to be there for comic relief rather than to cause serious problems, and when they do actually cause serious problems it seems out of character for them to do so. Again, I have to point out that if a villain truly is a threat to your party, then he most likely is not incompetent. Of course, it could just be that luck is on his side, but if heroes get lucky every now and then, there's no reason why that couldn't happen to the villains as well.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-25-08, 06:25 PM	I feel that a lot of the problems in the recent books have been the fact that "Classic" villains have been ignored in favor of the Shades. Well, I can agree with you right there about that. Or, it's not so much that classic villains are being ignored, it's that the Shades have been way overhyped.
Alediran 02-25-08, 06:44 PM	I despise overkill. "Extreme positions are not succeeded by moderate ones, but by contrary extreme positions." If we keep perpetuating extremities by doing the opposite of the previous era, we'll never reach a good middle ground. After 5 more years of evil winning, when memories of 1E and much of 2E are gone in the modern gaming population, what are they going to be saying about post-apocalyptic FR? SO QUIT IT PEOPLE. That's what is happening in my country with the governments, we constantly swing from the Extreme Right to the Extreme Left without anythin in the middle, so I can only wholeheartedly agree with you.
Meldread 02-25-08, 08:10 PM	Ultimately it all comes down to a matter of taste. I enjoy stories where I cannot predict the outcome from the beginning of the book. I like stories where good and evil are not very well defined, and that I can find qualities that I can relate to in both sides. I like characters who have deep and rational motivations (unless they are supposed to be insane), who make decisions based upon what they believe to be sound reasoning. I like characters who have flaws that make them both repulsive, interesting, unique, exciting and compelling. A Paladin who believes in ethnic cleansing of lesser races and struggles with upholding his code is more interesting than a cookie-cutter Knight right out of an Arthurian Tale. I enjoy the Realm's for the depth of its world, its interesting history, and its size - almost anything can fit into it. I also like the political struggle between the many organizations in the world. I have said it in the past, and I have come to the conclusion that the problems that I have with the Forgotten Realms is not a result of the setting itself, but a result of the rule system that it operates under. D&D encourages archetypical characters that are cookie cutter in style, and that in turn influences the setting - something that I believe to be negative.
GothicDan 02-25-08, 08:21 PM	A Paladin who believes in ethnic cleansing of lesser races and struggles with upholding his code is more interesting than a cookie-cutter Knight right out of an Arthurian Tale. See, I adore playing 'cookie cutter' characters as much as not so cookie-cutter ones. I actually dislike people who make things just to be different, rather than -interesting.- I don't think the two are mutually inclusive.
Charles Phipps 02-25-08, 09:04 PM	A Paladin who believes in ethnic cleansing of lesser races and struggles with upholding his code is more interesting than a cookie-cutter Knight right out of an Arthurian Tale. I believe we call those villains, Meldread. Bluntly, even in King Arthur, the tales POINT was about the fact that maintaining perfect honor was difficult. If you don't have any sort of moral code at all then you're going to be a rotten character and maintaining impossibly high standards is part of the fun.
Keryth 02-26-08, 10:28 AM	Personally, I will take a good Evil getting its butt kick by Good story any day. Don;t know about the rest of you, but I play RPGs to be a hero. To save the world. To be the one who rights the wrongs. If I'm playing a superheor game, I want to be the next Superman or Spider Man. In fantasy its Aragorn and Gandalf. Sci-Fi Luke Skywalker or Captain Kirk. Even when I'm playing a darker setting like Shadowrun or deadlands, I want to be the one who is the hero. This si what I THINK Wotc is trying to achieve with their POL. Problem is, the existing settings - The rEalms, Greyhawk, Eberron, Krynn, etc. don;t NEED POL. They already have them in their own form. Yet, it seems, especially wiht the info being released on the New Realms, that they are trying to force everything to be POL. Hence Shar and Cyric killing Mystra, etc.
Soltares 02-26-08, 10:29 AM	And still I ask, what is WRONG with Evil losing? Evil does NOT equal cool I never said that it was. But for a hero's journey to mean anything, it should at least be a credible threat. Otherwise, the Realms becomes a MMOG, where the bad-guys are just badly-run AI that you can kill with the same six sword-strokes, and then go back to the inn and rest. If the players have read the novels, and you try to present the Zhents as a credible threat, and the players joke at the table that they can just go somewhere else, because Zhentil Keep's gonna suffer it's annual falling-down-for-no-darn-reason, it detracts from the fun of the game. Evil isn't cool (fascination with Dark Elf crap aside) and it doesn't have to win. It just has to try, and, in being foiled by the PCs, lend meaning to their adventures and their tales. The Zhents, and the Cult of the Dragon, are like the villains from a Scooby-Doo cartoon. Run around long enough and they'll probably screw up all by themselves. Woot! Victory over the Zhents! That and a silver piece will get me a mug of ale... I'd rather present a setting where the PCs victories mean something. Where they can be proud of their accomplishments. The state of the 'bad-guys' in the Realms when I dropped it (back around the Time of Troubles) was such that it would be like a 12th grader bragging about beating up a couple 8 year olds...
GothicDan 02-26-08, 10:35 AM	I'll agree with that - Evil has to be competent to be cool. Actually, I've strayed away from a lot of novels for that reason. Then again, the heroes AND the villains are often stupid in D&D novels, for some reason. I heard Kemp seems to write the most 'intelligent' novels and characters, but his departure from canon religious and ethical standards of the realms supremely turns me off. I've played a wide range of characters. One of the online characters I played (adult content): Was an Incubus/Abyssal Lord who cannibalized his mother (the succubus Red Shroud) while raping her, and built a throne out of her bones. I wrote the short story of it, too. My other long-standing online character is a Tulani Proxy of Darahl Firecloak and Corellon Larethian. Shining light AND despicable darkness makes a fantasy world for me.
Keryth 02-26-08, 10:42 AM	I never said that it was. But for a hero's journey to mean anything, it should at least be a credible threat. Otherwise, the Realms becomes a MMOG, where the bad-guys are just badly-run AI that you can kill with the same six sword-strokes, and then go back to the inn and rest. If the players have read the novels, and you try to present the Zhents as a credible threat, and the players joke at the table that they can just go somewhere else, because Zhentil Keep's gonna suffer it's annual falling-down-for-no-darn-reason, it detracts from the fun of the game. Evil isn't cool (fascination with Dark Elf crap aside) and it doesn't have to win. It just has to try, and, in being foiled by the PCs, lend meaning to their adventures and their tales. The Zhents, and the Cult of the Dragon, are like the villains from a Scooby-Doo cartoon. Run around long enough and they'll probably screw up all by themselves. Woot! Victory over the Zhents! That and a silver piece will get me a mug of ale... I'd rather present a setting where the PCs victories mean something. Where they can be proud of their accomplishments. The state of the 'bad-guys' in the Realms when I dropped it (back around the Time of Troubles) was such that it would be like a 12th grader bragging about beating up a couple 8 year olds... And as I stated, the DM doesn;t have to portay the Zhents as bumbling. They certainly aren't bumbling in my campaigns. Nor is the Cult. It all depends on how the DM portrays them. The players think they're pushovers because of how they appear in the novels? Then show them differently. I already did a review of Evil in the realms a page or two back.
Charles Phipps 02-26-08, 11:01 AM	What's Kemp's departure from religion and ethical standards, GD? And yes, basically, I don't mind evil losing. I enjoy good winning when.... 1. The heroes are just as enjoyable as the villains. 2. They work for it. 3. Evil gives a decent showing. The Fey'ri get their asses utterly kicked in the Last Mythal but they gave a decent showing.
Rauric 02-26-08, 11:01 AM	IMO most gamers who play D&D just want to kill things and get into combat. If they want highbrow roleplaying may play the storyteller system or something else. This doesn't mean you cannot play in FR or D&D and not have political games or non-combat sessions. Just saying most gamers may feel this way IMO. So having more bad guys than good guys is good for a rpg setting because conflict is fun for gamers and gamers like to play a game where they feel like they are needed. Now on to the competency of evil in FR. I hate the novels for this reason. It has shown the bad groups always getting beat down because... well they are novels and we all want to see the protaginist win books. Again this last bit is my opinion. In rpgs though the adventurers fail sometimes. Bad guys win. People that follow the novels canon and use it for their games are a bit screwed in a way since if you follow canon the Zhents may be perceived as buffoons.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-26-08, 03:19 PM	I was just about to mention that novels (and portrayals of characters therein) need not be (and IMO, shouldn't be) the be-all end-all at a gaming table. People can make jokes about the Zhents, etc. (that's part of the fun), but that doesn't mean you can't have the in-game Zhents kick the PC's asses a bit if they are going to let their guard down and not take threats seriously.
Keryth 02-26-08, 04:44 PM	IMO most gamers who play D&D just want to kill things and get into combat. If they want highbrow roleplaying may play the storyteller system or something else. This doesn't mean you cannot play in FR or D&D and not have political games or non-combat sessions. Just saying most gamers may feel this way IMO. So having more bad guys than good guys is good for a rpg setting because conflict is fun for gamers and gamers like to play a game where they feel like they are needed. I find this reasoning flawed and overly opinionated. Especially you terminology of highbrow roleplaying. Perhaps you enjoy hack n slash fests, that does not mean the majority of gamers do. Nor does it mean they enjoy overly intense RP sessions either. It is my opinion that it is a happy medium that is enjoyed by most gamers - a combination of combat and role play in each session.
Faraer 02-26-08, 10:31 PM	IMO most gamers who play D&D just want to kill things and get into combat.Maybe, but as I don't play like that I have no interest in a setting designed around it, and if I did play like that I wouldn't have interest in a detailed setting at all. If you realize this:It has shown the bad groups always getting beat down because... well they are novels and we all want to see the protaginist win books. -- and it's obvious enough -- you understand why the fiction isn't representative of what happens in the setting -- is not 'canonical' in that sense -- and you can easily see through this Bad guys win. People that follow the novels canon and use it for their games are a bit screwed in a way since if you follow canon the Zhents may be perceived as buffoons.