Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Todesherr 10-06-07, 08:37 AM	Was it his temporary madness that induced this alignment shift? Neutral Evil Neutral Evil is called the "Malefactor" alignment. Characters of this alignment are typically selfish and have no qualms about turning on their allies-of-the-moment. They have no compunctions about harming others to get what they want, but neither will they go out of their way to cause carnage or mayhem when they see no direct benefit to it. A villain of this alignment can be more dangerous than either Lawful or Chaotic Evil characters, since he is neither bound by any sort of honour or tradition nor disorganised and pointlessly violent. Examples of Neutral Evil characters and creatures include assassins-for-hire and abject sadists Chaotic Evil Chaotic Evil is referred to as the "Destroyer" or "Demoniac" alignment. Characters of this alignment tend to have little respect for rules, other peoples' lives, or anything but their own selfish desires. They typically only behave themselves out of fear of punishment. Examples of Chaotic Evil creatures are demons, werewolves and red dragons. Defintionally speaking Cyric still fits the NE bill more than the CE or at least that's how I see it. What's your take? Many here I have noticed don't put much stock in alignment but I would be curious to hear your opinions...;)
Dimensional_Drifter 10-06-07, 11:07 AM	I never remember seeing a neutral evil Cyric. Hasn't his alignment always been chaotic evil? Besides I feel that even if alignments were all that important, which really--they aren't, Cyric fits chaotic evil much more. Before the great tree cosmology I think when Kelemvor took over as god of death, Cyric moved to Pandemonium. Besides chaotic evil isn't necessarily "chaotic stupid" and a raging thoughtless lunatic. Besides, insanity tends to not shift alignment toward chaos but shouldn't even be classified as the behavior of any alignment. Besides, when I think of neutral evil, I think Shar, never Cyric.
Gray Richardson 10-06-07, 12:07 PM	Was it his temporary madness that induced this alignment shift?Yes, I would agree that it probably was his madness that changed his alignment. What I think is interesting is that, after he was "cured," he didn't go back to his old alignment. Now that could be for a couple of reasons. One, is that they just haven't revisited his story enough to show how he has changed since the cure. It could be that he has been operating on autopilot, continuing along the same path until an author or designer changes his course. But a more interesting explanation may be that he finds he can't go back to his old alignment. During that period his worshipers have come to see him in a certain light. They perceive him as chaotic, and a little crazy. And because of this he has probably picked up more chaotic worshipers too. As a god, Cyric is subject to laws of collective belief. How his worshipers see him shapes him. What they believe about him constrains and influences his outlook and personality. I think maybe Cyric has, through his madness, fallen victim to some kind of "divine inertia" that makes it difficult if not impossible for him to change back.
Dimensional_Drifter 10-06-07, 02:19 PM	So he was neutral evil once? Thanks Gray, now I feel dumb... I just never saw that alignment in print for Cyric. I guess that would have fit him well enough as a mortal too. Many of his actions could point to either alignment. Although the insanity would be cause of more chaotic actions, perhaps he is cured but it would seem to me that chaotic evil is much more fitting for Cyric as he is now. He holds deception, illusion, lies, murder, and intrigue. To me those seem more chaotic than lawful, even if murder was held by a lawful evil deity previously. Gray, what you say about him being percieved as chaotic may make him more chaotic and perhaps he can't go back to neutral evil, makes sense. Perhaps that would explain other deities alignments too. I remember something like that being mentioned on the new god/goddess of magic thread's 4th page, something about deity alignments and the portfolios not always being necessarily a good or evil thing but being held by a good or evil deity. Perhaps if a deity holds a portfolio that is perceived as being good, the deity is more likely to be good, so the same thing could be said about law and chaos or neutrality. On the other hand, it could be the deity holding the portfolio, whose alignment and the way they represent some aspect of that portfolio that makes the people of Faerun see it as good/evil or lawful/chaotic even though those people don't see those things classified by the alignment system (which they obvious don't go by with it being a game mechanic and all) Alright... now I've confused myself. Well I for one think Cyric shows traits of psychopathy, and although I've found many who are confused about what psychopathy really is (due to the common usage of the term "psycho") I'm not sure if you really can label him as such, but for the way it is I think chaotic evil makes more sense than neutral evil. But, yeah, I think I agree with a lot of what Gray says on this topic.
Puritan13 10-06-07, 04:53 PM	If you go by what was written in the novels, he starts out as TN. Then he attempts to go NG when he fell in love with Midnight. Then Midnight and Kelemvor started doin the dirty, and thats when he started slipping to NE. After he ascended and went crazy, he finally hit CE.
Dimensional_Drifter 10-06-07, 05:02 PM	Puritan, I disagree. I think Cyric was always a bit emotionaly unstable although I doubt he was ever neutral good. He may well have been neutral with evil tendencies, but one must consider his life before the time of troubles. He always had evil tendencies though as far as I can tell, and he didn't have a glorious history either.
Puritan13 10-06-07, 05:05 PM	Puritan, I disagree. I think Cyric was always a bit emotionaly unstable although I doubt he was ever neutral good. He may well have been neutral with evil tendencies, but one must consider his life before the time of troubles. He always had evil tendencies though as far as I can tell, and he didn't have a glorious history either.I never said he attained NG, just said he attempted to become NG. Mystra and Kelemvors relationship kinda ruined it. You don't think switching alignments that many times indicates a bit of emotional instability?
Dimensional_Drifter 10-06-07, 05:12 PM	I doubt anyone would shift alignments even that much though. He may have had feelings for Midnight, but then again those are the same feelings that led him to hate her.
Puritan13 10-06-07, 05:18 PM	I remember (and forgive me if I'm wrong, it's been about a decade since I've read the Avatar series) Cyric thinking to himself that he needed to act more like Kelemvor. I think the sword Godsbane also had a bit to do with Cyric becoming evil. I think Mask was subtly influencing Cyric into evil acts. Mask fed Cyrics anger at Mystra and Kelemvor, driving Cyric further and further into evil.
Dimensional_Drifter 10-06-07, 05:39 PM	You mean, Mask using Cyric to try to gain the portfolios that Cyric was given when he ascended. Only, Mask was in the end unsucessful and not only did the plan backfire and Cyric kept the portfolios of the dead three, but lost intrigue to Cyric as well, who also gained Leira's portfolios that Mask most likely coveted. Well, It doesn't matter. The topic was the god Cyric shifting alignment. Perhaps mortal Cyric was simply neutral. I see your point, Mask could well have influenced Cyric to become truly evil, but that isn't to say that the capacity for evil wasn't already there. I think if that is true, Cyric may not have necessarily been truly evil at the beginning of the series, but there is no doubt that he is evil now. Perhaps godsbane pushed him over the edge, and his jealousy regarding Kelemvor and Midnight made it only worse, I think Cyric had low self-esteem and emotional instability, and his ascension never would have happened the way it dd if not for Mask, however it perhaps was that innate capacity for evil that Cyric had already possessed that made him the evil deity that earned the hatred of the entire faerunian pantheon.
Puritan13 10-06-07, 05:47 PM	I agree with everything you said there. I wonder if I can find the old adventure that stats out Cyric, Midnight, and Kelemvor as mortals...
Dimensional_Drifter 10-06-07, 05:51 PM	If Cyric wasn't so evil, one could almost feel sorry for him... Not sure about their stats as mortals though. Then again, we are a bit off topic, but not many people have stopped to give their answer to Todesherr's question anyway.
Asgetrion 10-06-07, 06:10 PM	I agree with everything you said there. I wonder if I can find the old adventure that stats out Cyric, Midnight, and Kelemvor as mortals... Cyric's alignment in the first adventure in the series ('Shadowdale') was Lawful Evil.
Dimensional_Drifter 10-06-07, 06:25 PM	Well, there goes your Cyric not always being evil theory Puritan. Also, that kind of agrees with my saying that Cyric had to have an innate capacity for evil doesn't it. hmm... now how do you explain an alignment shift from LE to NE to CE? ok... Think that goes to show that the alignment system will always make little sense til they get rid of it or overhaul it and that not everyone agrees on what makes what alignment.
Puritan13 10-06-07, 06:44 PM	Yeah, there goes that theory.
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 12:15 AM	The real reason Cyric is drifting towards CE is because he is going to replace Tharzdund(sp?) in the cosomolgy as the father of the Abyss... Alignment never had anything to do with sanity.
Selvarin 10-07-07, 04:21 PM	Cyric's alignment was likely switched from to CE with the idea in mind that he took over Leira's portfolio and would need to accomodate them. With the one-alignment step rule, a few deities' alignments shifted in order to fit the desired swatch of worshippers that some felt a god would/should support. Thus, CN/CE worshippers of Leira could continue being granted spells by Cyric under the guise of their former goddess. Mystra remains the exception but we all know where she's headed.
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 04:33 PM	Cyric's alignment was likely switched from to CE with the idea in mind that he took over Leira's portfolio and would need to accomodate them. With the one-alignment step rule, a few deities' alignments shifted in order to fit the desired swatch of worshippers that some felt a god would/should support. Thus, CN/CE worshippers of Leira could continue being granted spells by Cyric under the guise of their former goddess. Mystra remains the exception but we all know where she's headed. Just a minot point Cyric could always give Leira's CE followers spells as that is in with one step of NE. But doing so also loses any LE clerics he had...
Selvarin 10-07-07, 05:59 PM	Leira was CN. While she had CG worshippers, others would've been CN or CE--and Iyactu (eventually Bane) already had LE covered. So when Cyric was turned into a maniacal CE type he lost the methodical LE types but would've held onto the CN/CE sorts. It was a 'designer shuffle' of the gods, especially in light of (then) upcoming 3e. And initially the NG Mystra and NE Cyric were brought in to fill percieved holes in the 2e pantheon.
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 06:06 PM	Leira was CN. While she had CG worshippers, others would've been CN or CE--and Iyactu (eventually Bane) already had LE covered. So when Cyric was turned into a maniacal CE type he lost the methodical LE types but would've held onto the CN/CE sorts. It was a 'designer shuffle' of the gods, especially in light of (then) upcoming 3e. And initially the NG Mystra and NE Cyric were brought in to fill percieved holes in the 2e pantheon. I never liked how Leira was killed by Cyric in the first place...actualy I can't think of any thing Cyric has done that clever in it is own right. Alot of it happened because of fiat.
Selvarin 10-07-07, 06:20 PM	They killed Leira just because of the specialist wizard thing. That was 90-100% the reason. And I'm sure you noticed that in earlier writings she was considered a more or less harmless deity, but snippets in F&P painted her in a darker light--witness the scheme she had planned against Oghma.
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 06:42 PM	They killed Leira just because of the specialist wizard thing. That was 90-100% the reason. And I'm sure you noticed that in earlier writings she was considered a more or less harmless deity, but snippets in F&P painted her in a darker light--witness the scheme she had planned against Oghma. I don't think illusions and deception are inherently evil though. Which it became almost by default because of Cyric getting those portfolios. It was a bad change then as it is now. Also sure she had a darkside but so? She should be Oghma's rival but that shouldn't mean she is evil. It seems they are going for a more black & white setting.
Selvarin 10-07-07, 07:45 PM	From Faiths & Avatars: Leira was an enigma since she covered everything she did and said with layers of illusion and falsehood. She was not an actively malicious power, however, and it is known that those few who managed to visit her realm in Limbo uninvited were normally trapped or restrained rather than simply being atomized, as is the practice of most evil or impatient powers. She was apparently content with her small following and had no great and glorious plans or ambitions. On a personal level, she seems to have been a very private power, and the only passing friendship she maintained was with Mask—who treacherously betrayed her to her death at the hands of power-hungry Cyric. She had a formal, cooperative relationship with Azuth, patron of spellcasters, and was disliked by Tyr, who pursues justice through truth. That Leira seems just a tad different from the one who plotted the end of Oghma (see p. 54, "The End of Creation" sidebar, if you don't know what I'm getting at.) And no, illusion, etc., isn't evil, but as you've seen the designers had reasons during the implementation of 2e and 3e to wiggle the gods' positions around a bit--and eliminating some entirely. It seems the LN guardian types also got the short end of the stick, witness Gorm as well as Helm going bye-bye in 4th edition.
Dimensional_Drifter 10-07-07, 08:12 PM	No, Illusion and deception isn't necessarily evil. Leira was chaotic neutral, although the archnemesis of Oghma so to speak, it was probably due to the fact the she hid knowledge and Oghma spread knowledge. Yeah, I know what the book said, but with Leira, I guess you'll never know, especially with Cyric killing her and all. However, I'm still wondering if WotC will ever do anything with the metatext. Deneir is trying still to decipher it. However, I would say that her portfolios are indeed more chaotic than they'll ever be lawful. Cyric may have shifted to chaotic evil due to them, or due his madness, or just because the designers said so back then.
Selvarin 10-07-07, 08:42 PM	Answer: Designers. As for the metatext, they started hinting about things with Gorm dying and here we are a few years later, Gorm gets killed. I should be thankful that Marthammor survived, at least.
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 09:06 PM	That Leira seems just a tad different from the one who plotted the end of Oghma (see p. 54, "The End of Creation" sidebar, if you don't know what I'm getting at.) . It seemed to me that was added in so that they can just revise whatever they want later and blame that. It isn't even makes sense as um she wasn't a goddess of revolution. And a good liar and illusionist is very creative so why would she want to end all creativity...Hey I didn't say that 4th edition was the only bad designs...this has been a trend that started in 3rd it was just more easily to work around. And no, illusion, etc., isn't evil, but as you've seen the designers had reasons during the implementation of 2e and 3e to wiggle the gods' positions around a bit--and eliminating some entirely. It seems the LN guardian types also got the short end of the stick, witness Gorm as well as Helm going bye-bye in 4th edition. Also I don't get how the advent of specialist wizards would mean Leira is no longer needed...I mean illusionist still exists...they kept the gnome god of illusions...they even kept the illusion portfolio...?
Dimensional_Drifter 10-07-07, 09:11 PM	I think "the end of creation" thing meant end of inspiration in regards to art, literature, song etc -- Not creativity in general. Not sure though. Besides, creativity is Lathander not Oghma. Inspiration is Oghma however. hmm... how do they differenciate between the two portfolios???
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 09:49 PM	I think "the end of creation" thing meant end of inspiration in regards to art, literature, song etc -- Not creativity in general. Not sure though. Besides, creativity is Lathander not Oghma. Inspiration is Oghma however. hmm... how do they differenciate between the two portfolios??? I am sure they won't even bother trying and just have Lathender kill Oghma and steal his stuff. Also some very great art is nothing but a lie and illusions....
Dark Wizard 10-07-07, 09:57 PM	I am sure they won't even bother trying and just have Lathender kill Oghma and steal his stuff. Regarding the emphasis pattern above; that seems to be the method of forming 4E, take everything from previous editions and start having dominate ideas kill other ideas and assimilate their best features.
Dimensional_Drifter 10-07-07, 10:03 PM	Well, who knows what the metatext would do. Besides, I don't really think they will use it in a story anytime soon. Although I still would like something to be done with it. Leira may be dead, but you never can believe anything entirely when it comes to illusion. Yes, Cyric as god of lies makes sense to a point, but I would prefer Leira to Cyric when it comes to illusion and deception. I do think there was two reasons he killed her though (too bad it ain't an elaborater illusion by Leira-- she is indeed dead) 1. for power 2. because Mask in the form of godsbane. I still think Mask had a great plan to rise to power using Cyric, just that it is ironic that not only did the plan fail, but he lost intrigue as well. Mask however was the only deity to have a passing friendship with Leira, and he betrayed her. Mask certainly wanted more power, and I see that friendship/betrayel thing as part of Mask's plot anyway.
Selvarin 10-07-07, 10:37 PM	I think "the end of creation" thing meant end of inspiration in regards to art, literature, song etc -- Not creativity in general. Not sure though. Besides, creativity is Lathander not Oghma. Inspiration is Oghma however. hmm... how do they differenciate between the two portfolios??? Some of the aspects of portfolios are a bit...flimsy. One might latch onto the creativity bit that belongs to Lathander, but what's the difference between the invention or inspiration portion of Oghma's? Some of that will go by the wayside--Lathander's going places but in a different direction, especially now it seems almost certain he'll become the Sun God (instead of hiding behind 'dawn', etc.). Oghma is largely a god of knowledge while Lathander is more of the sun and action. I suspect they will become more distinct now in FR 4e. And it's more than likely that designers toss trial balloons out there in products, see what the response is, and tweak things accordingly. Too bad about Gorm though. I still have FR 11 Dwarves Deep with all the stories, etc, including the description of the new dwarven deities.
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 11:04 PM	Well, who knows what the metatext would do. Besides, I don't really think they will use it in a story anytime soon. Although I still would like something to be done with it. Leira may be dead, but you never can believe anything entirely when it comes to illusion. Yes, Cyric as god of lies makes sense to a point, but I would prefer Leira to Cyric when it comes to illusion and deception. I do think there was two reasons he killed her though (too bad it ain't an elaborater illusion by Leira-- she is indeed dead) 1. for power 2. because Mask in the form of godsbane. I still think Mask had a great plan to rise to power using Cyric, just that it is ironic that not only did the plan fail, but he lost intrigue as well. Mask however was the only deity to have a passing friendship with Leira, and he betrayed her. Mask certainly wanted more power, and I see that friendship/betrayel thing as part of Mask's plot anyway. I don't see it and I hated how they didn't leave it open. In my FR cyric never really killed Leira she just decieved him into thinking he did so and waiting for the right time to strike which will hapen when Cyric attempts to kill Mystra( well in my FR)...mmmm I haven't really decided rather not if Mask was in on it or not....
Dimensional_Drifter 10-07-07, 11:27 PM	I don't see it and I hated how they didn't leave it open. In my FR cyric never really killed Leira she just decieved him into thinking he did so and waiting for the right time to strike which will hapen when Cyric attempts to kill Mystra( well in my FR)...mmmm I haven't really decided rather not if Mask was in on it or not.... Well... I would like it if Leira did decieve Cyric and Mask (as godsbane), as she was the goddess of illusion. However, Mask was the only deity to ever have a sort of friendship with Leira, so he might have had a larger part in the deed (one could say perhaps Mask killed her, as he was the sword...although Cyric got the portfolios) and it seems that a lesser deity like Leira, surviving a greater deity like Cyric would be unlikely even with her being the goddess of deception and all. I say this because lesser and demideities seem to be portrayed as much, much weaker than those of higher ranks (even if Torm slayed the weakened avatar of Bane, and Myrkul and Bhaal died in even less glorious ways in avatar form) hmm... Although I'm not sure how much Leira would help Mystra versus Cyric AND Shar. Mask however has lost much since the Time of Troubles... He made a gamble and lost, and even worse, helped make Cyric what he is...
Selvarin 10-07-07, 11:40 PM	Yes, but Mask is doing better lately. He's even more interesting than he used to be. Worship-wise, Leira's been gone for way too long. Even if Mask spirited her away for old-time's sake...then again didn't Waukeen give up godhood for a time, ending up a 'guest' of Grazzt's? That would be the ultimate robbery for Mask, taking her divinity in exchange for her life. But one never knows. No one expected Bane to pop out of Iyactu's husk, either.
Dimensional_Drifter 10-07-07, 11:51 PM	Yeah, I do think Leira ain't coming back, and I doubt the metatext will be spoken of any time soon. I've been thinking though, Mask would make a better deity of deception and illusion than Cyric. Question: he got Intrigue back right? and Kezef is still after him. Mask really has been active since the Time of Troubles. Imagine him as a greater deity in place of Cyric... Truthfuly I think Mask is a whole different side of evil, more cunning, calculating... similar to Shar in a couple of ways (although his goals are different) Regarding the rebirth of deities... Bane came back, yes, but I don't see anyone else doing that anytime soon. Wasn't Velsharoon looking for the Crown of Horns??? Man... WotC kinda ruined that by dropping him into the astral plane... that would have been as interesting as the metatext... also I think Bhaal saw his demise coming (the Bhaalspawn and all) so again tell me how Savras didn't see his death approaching? So many stories that need to be told... that could be good stories too. Thinking though, Cyric and Shar could have blocked Savras from seeing the truth. Cyric chaotic evil... hmm... not sure but do you all think that Shar is the mastermind now and Cyric is being led again? I think Mask expected to get Cyric's portfolios. Do you think Shar and Cyric are allies for now only to betray each other (betrayal would most definately happen) Shar... is she prepared? Most likely I think.
Asgetrion 10-15-07, 08:41 PM	Regarding the rebirth of deities... Bane came back, yes, but I don't see anyone else doing that anytime soon. Wasn't Velsharoon looking for the Crown of Horns??? Man... WotC kinda ruined that by dropping him into the astral plane... that would have been as interesting as the metatext... WoTC also dropped the ball when Myrkul was making a comeback just before 3E came out -- there were lot of hints and adventure seeds that the designers (Greenwood, Schend and Boyd, I think) all gave in several accessories and adventures (Mere of the Dead Men-series in the Dungeon Magazine). That event was included in our longest-running campaign but later abandoned (when WoTC suddenly decided to bring Bane back instead of Myrkul -- which was odd, because this had been foreshadowed for some time). I have always liked Myrkul, so I was sad to see a mean & green "Hulk" version of Bane returning instead of the Lord of Bones. I saw Velsharoon as a potential "Myrkul 2.0" for all DMs who like deities of undeath (and especially their servants) but my enthusiasm was apparently meant to be short-lived. :weep:
Selvarin 10-15-07, 09:44 PM	Iyactu didn't have as much 'oomph' as his father. But who knows? Perhaps Bane's skin will split and out will pop Zvim once more. :plotting: (Won't happen and I wouldn't want it to, then again his priests had better fashion style with the black & green...and what the frell was with Bane's new symbol? Borrrring! Someone get him a new artist.) Myrkhul's just waiting in the wings, perhaps...besides, who knows? Maybe he will come back, Velsharoon or not. Perhaps he's been draining energy all this time and is ready to break out of that crown...and perhaps then we'll see some Myrkhul-on-Velsharoony action. May the better undead lich win!