Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jax_Nightstalker 08-18-07, 04:01 PM	It looks like these two Greater Powers are about to get into it big time. Who do u think will win in this battle of Evil vs Evil? Yes Bane has experience, has been a god longer, and has a trick or two. But what of Cyric the Dark Sun? Does he not have determination and drive? Learned from past mistakes and is a tricky god himself? Personally I like Bane better than Cyric. But I just can't choose who I would want to see go down if a fight does happen.
BreegJac17 08-18-07, 09:28 PM	If it came down to the worshippers fighting too, it would be Bane, because they are more organized and disciplined, and the disciples of Cyric are to fickle and they kill eachother as much as they kill everybody else. Also Bane's got Fzoul, and Scyulla Darkhope (Sp.). :P If it came down to the gods, Bane would win, because he has more allies, experiance and determination to succedd and stay on the top. ( I mean he spent his whole mortal life trying to acquire power) Cyric has no allies, he is too unpredictable and he is still slightly insane. Bane has ta win, hands down. :twocents:
Derren S. 08-19-07, 09:11 AM	Cyric would win because he has way more worshippers than Bane. If WotC would follow its own rules that would mean that Cyric would have a higher divine rank as Bane as the power of a deity is linked to the number of followers.
Eccerion 08-19-07, 10:33 AM	Cyric would win because he has way more worshippers than Bane. If WotC would follow its own rules that would mean that Cyric would have a higher divine rank as Bane as the power of a deity is linked to the number of followers. It is true that the number of worshipers a god has is an important factor in determining the gods power, however it isnt the only one. Gods derive their power from their portfolios, followers and the strength of said followers. Cyric does not have more followers than Bane has, remember that the majority of cyrics "flock" came from the worshippers of Bane, Baal and Myrkul, most of which adopted Cyric as their patron god to retain what powers they had or because they were to scared not to do so. Once it became obvious Cyric was crazy many of his followers sought out other dieties like Mask, Shar or Talos, and the ones with less of an evil bent went to Kelemvor After Bane came back a sizable chunk of his former worshippers left Bane to follow their true master once more, and lets not overlook the fact that the church of Cyric has been fighting itself as well as its enemies for years, thus leaving it in a very disorganized and reduced state. Banes church has the backing of the Zhentarim as well as its allies, beholders and fire giants to name a few, and unlike Cyrics bunch they dont go around messing up eachothers plans just for the sake of messing them up, as this would make Bane mad, and noone wants that. A gods portfolio is a major part of how powerful said god is; getting a higher number of things in a portfolio increases a gods power no doubt (this is how Cyric got as powerful as he was to begin with), but some gods gain great power simply because their portfolio is a very significant aspect of reality. Cyric and Bane are fairly equal as far as godly powers go, both being greater gods, however if the two went all out head to head Cyric would loose. And he would loose becuse all the other gods hate him:mad: , at best they think he's a prat and at worst (like Bane) they want to destroy him anyway. Most of the evil dieties would back Bane since they hate Cyric and if he falls theres always a chanse they could grab some of his power for themselves after hes dead. The nautral and good dieties wouldn't interfer, in fact they would probably find a comfertable spot to watch the carnage. Course the odds of the two of them ever going mano a mano are slim, since that would cause a major divine war and grandpapasmurf Ao dosnt like it when the status qoe gets disrupted:cool: .
arveiaturace_nartheling 08-19-07, 04:56 PM	bane has mask who would help if he got is portfoile back.
Green Elven Vampire 08-19-07, 05:07 PM	Bane is played out and old and boring!! period.
Zarreth_Nessad 08-19-07, 05:43 PM	Actually, you could say that about any diety. They've all been around for a long time, are immortal, and eventually they get bored. That's generally when things get interesting again. As far as Bane being boring, his is one of the few churches my characters with an evil bent would be willing to join in the first place, mostly because it isn't boring. There's always something to do when you're one of his followers. And yes, Bane (whether including his followers and other gods or not) would win vs Cyric easily, as already stated.
Green Elven Vampire 08-19-07, 10:25 PM	Actually, you could say that about any diety. They've all been around for a long time, are immortal, and eventually they get bored. That's generally when things get interesting again. As far as Bane being boring, his is one of the few churches my characters with an evil bent would be willing to join in the first place, mostly because it isn't boring. There's always something to do when you're one of his followers. And yes, Bane (whether including his followers and other gods or not) would win vs Cyric easily, as already stated. No, I'm saying he's boring, because he is really, really boring!
Mirtek 08-21-07, 04:37 PM	After Bane came back a sizable chunk of his former worshippers left Bane to follow their true master once more, and lets not overlook the fact that the church of Cyric has been fighting itself as well as its enemies for years, thus leaving it in a very disorganized and reduced state. Not really. What was left of die hard banites that had not already switched to Xvim was neglible. The current sizes of the churches are given in LoD and Cyric's is bigger than Shar's and Bane's together. In a conflict, just with the situation as written, the Banites had nothing to expect but extinction. They're fighting an asymetrical war that they can't win. Think of USA/Nato (aka banites) against insurgents (aka cyricists), but in this case the insurgents are actually just as good equiped as NATO and much more numerous The Banites are an open army, almost an empire and that's their weakness, that's their doom. Banites are Sadam Hussein, and Cyricist are Bin Ladens. Guess which one was annihilated and which one is still causing trouble as terrible as ever and growing? Cyric is rid of the last shreds of portfolio that forced him to be open (tyranny). Now all his portfolios complement each other into a deadly, invisible mix. If Banites learn of a secret temple to Cyric they will storm it and sacrifce their prisoners to Bane. If Cyricist learn of a secret temple of Bane, they will just let word of its existance and location reach the ears of churches of tyr, Torm and the like. And while the followers of Tyr and Bane fight and kill each other, screaming for Tyr/Bane with each kill, the Cyricist will just watch from the shadows and silently mouthing "For Cyric" each time a Tyrist and a Banite slay each other. A holy city of Bane will be recognizable as such, with grand parades of Banite armies and a big grand-temple with flying colors. A holy city of Cyric will be a place where even most citizens are absolutely clueless about "their luck", with the secret temple hidden behind the worst stinking part of the severs, cloaked by illusions and traps. With Cyricist only meeting in secret and where no one knows that the harmless looking advisor of the ruler is the leading priest of Cyric and his whisperings into the ruler's ear are the true power of the city. Bane's church is struktured, it has order and a chain of command. Attack a weak link and see how havoc spreads throughout the ranks. Cyric's church is a secret cancer, growing all throughout Faerun, not noticed until it's too late (if noticed at all). Destroy a cell and no other cell is harmed. Leave just two survivors and each one will eventually start a new cell. You're fighting a hydra with no chance at all to ever strike at the body, you can only cut off head after head and see how two new heads replace each head you slew (unlike the dragon that is the church of Bane, which will die if the head is cut off and has it's head clear and visible)
Snarkbone 08-21-07, 06:59 PM	No, I'm saying he's boring, because he is really, really boring! If he is so boring, why does his mere mention makes you so excited as to use repetition and exclamation? Bane is pretty much the only evil deity that has a reasonable agenda for its church. Everyone else is just a fetish cliche (Shar, Lovi, etc) or are aimless (Cyric, Lolth, etc.). As mentioned above Bane is the only deity I see an evil character really joining with, setting aside the stuff being forced on them by the plot of an adventure.
Vasyek 08-21-07, 09:35 PM	Bane is pretty much the only evil deity that has a reasonable agenda for its church. Everyone else is just a fetish cliche (Shar, Lovi, etc) or are aimless (Cyric, Lolth, etc.). There's nothing remotely unique about Bane/his church's desire to conquer the world. The evil deities that don't/wouldn't pursue the expansion of their influence to that extent are, if anything, the minority among them. Cyric/his church seek power over nations, as do the likes of Tiamat, Set, Gruumsh, and so forth. Shar and Loviatar, who you discount as fetishist cliches, are far from unknown to influence the upper eichelons of societies and in the case of the latter, I'd venture that her dogma of self-mastery through the infliction and endurance of pain is one that could easily strike a chord within the hearts of evil creatures. By contrast, the teachings of Bane (and, to be fair, Cyric) amount to little more than vainglorious excess. The Talontar have a pretty good racket going with their mastery of poisons and antidotes alike, and all the mystique that rapport with the instruments of life and death can provide, Velsharoon's appeal extends along similar lines, perhaps superior in that regard for his church's facility in matters pertaining to cheating death, Mask, for all that I detest the worm, has a far more reasonable agenda than Bane ever did, and Gargauth's maxim of false counsel political corruption yields similar if not greater prospects for dominion without all the clutter and complication of the warpath. As mentioned above Bane is the only deity I see an evil character really joining with, setting aside the stuff being forced on them by the plot of an adventure. If anything, subservience to Bane is one of the least believable choices for an intelligent evil character to make: the blatant militarism, the conspicuous outposts, the widespread infamy and opposition... He pretty much consolidates everything a cunning bastard would rather foist upon his pawns and lackies. Plenty of evil gods/their churches are hated, but I can't think of any that go so far out of their way to make such an obvious target of themselves. Even Talosians at least have spontaneity and unpredictability on their side.
Snarkbone 08-22-07, 12:02 PM	There's nothing remotely unique about Bane/his church's desire to conquer the world. I didn't say he was original, I said he had a more or less well refined plan in the works, something people can get behind. Other deities seem to adhere to the following plan: 1) Cause general mayhem 2) Sacrifice a boat load of random villagers 3) ??? 4) World domination! If anything, subservience to Bane is one of the least believable choices for an intelligent evil character to make: the blatant militarism, the conspicuous outposts, the widespread infamy and opposition... Least believable? Seems like he would be a good role model and patron for any real life evil dictator I can think of. Bane's by far the most human deity in Realms (among the evil ones at least). Even Talosians at least have spontaneity and unpredictability on their side. You want a game show host or a deity? Spontaneity and unpredictability are only virtues when they are a part of a grand scheme of things, not for their own sake.
kaor 08-22-07, 12:28 PM	It's been maybe 10 years since I read that Avatar Trilogy about the Time of Troubles. But a couple of months ago I got the chance to read a comic book adaptation of it. I don't know if there were any changes, but I was struck by how clever Cyric was, and how he had nerves of steel when he needed them. He was also the kind of person who would climb a tree and shoot at a target instead of being in a position where he could be attacked. I think the writers particularly are guilty of presenting the bad guys in FR like an evil version of the Keystone Cops or Three Stooges. The Cyric I read about in that comic is more than a match for Bane if they both have divine power. He was most definitely the most formidable of the three (Kelemvor, Midnight/Mystra, and Cyric). And why a god of trickery goes out of his way to align the rest of the gods against him is beyond me. He is the god of strife, but that is just kind of stupid, and Cyric isn't stupid. He was insane, but now it is over. I don't have a problem (actually I like it) with having good win. But evil has to win sometimes, otherwise there isn't much to do in a setting like this. And you also have to present that evil as a legitimate threat, not like someone dastardly in an old movie serial with a handlebar mustache tying a damsel to dwarven mine tracks. I thought the person who said that a Cyricist would let the Tyrists know where the hidden Banite temple was had the right take on Cyric.
Vasyek 08-22-07, 01:07 PM	I didn't say he was original, I said he had a more or less well refined plan in the works, something people can get behind. Other deities seem to adhere to the following plan: 1) Cause general mayhem 2) Sacrifice a boat load of random villagers 3) ??? 4) World domination! Bane's scheme is in the same general vein, however. He's got the amassing followers and terrorizing the populace bit down, but there're a few glaring problems with his approach that lead to that nebulous third step. He simply doesn't have the numbers to take the world by force and lacks the sort of discretion, insight, and persuasiveness that are necessary to effectively circumvent the limitations that his numbers impose. He's going nowhere about as fast Lolth is (or was, until recently); he doesn't wallow in it so directly, but that only makes his impasse that much more pitiful. Other gods might not care enough to get their act together (Talos, Beshaba, etc.) but Bane apparently just can't see what he's doing wrong in the first place. Least believable? Seems like he would be a good role model and patron for any real life evil dictator I can think of. Bane's by far the most human deity in Realms (among the evil ones at least). I think it'd really be the other way around for the most part... quite a few of those real life dictators had some kind of political savvy working for them in addition to the whole brutal oppression schtick, after all. You want a game show host or a deity? Spontaneity and unpredictability are only virtues when they are a part of a grand scheme of things, not for their own sake. I brought it up more as a mitigating factor to the general lack of subtlety one will generally find amongst Talosians than a virtue in itself, though it could certainly facilitate their goals (such as they are) as well. Bane is similarly hamfisted and direct, but his attempts to shore up the failings of this approach with militaristic concentration/chain of command merely exacerbates the problem in the ways Mirtek described.
Mirtek 08-22-07, 05:29 PM	Least believable? Seems like he would be a good role model and patron for any real life evil dictator I can think of. Bane's by far the most human deity in Realms (among the evil ones at least). But he's the slowest route to power. His church is ordered, hierarchic, bureaucratic. It will be a long and slow way through the chain until you can get a taste of real power. Advancement in the church of Cyric is as fast as is downfall within the church of Cyric. If you are "good" and you know it, you will play your cards here. Quick road to power guaranteed (if you're really good) without any bureaucratic proceedures to slow you down. So if you want to play safe (because your not really convinced your capable of getting and holding power) go to Bane, if you're capable and you know it go to Cyric (but better really be as capable as you think or you won't last long).
Jax_Nightstalker 08-25-07, 09:25 PM	This is a good discussion. I see some good points made about Bane being more organized, but I see some good points about Cyric too. Someone made mention of Lloth though so I felt I had to defend one of my favorite evil gods. Lloth maybe chaotic evil but she is a smart cookie and has survived as a god longer than Cyric and Bane put together. The Spider Queen has way more experience than Bane but does have less power when it comes to worshippers and divine power in the Forgotten Realms. But that doesn't stop her from trying to give it her all. She has taken over Moander's portfolio sometime ago and it looks like she is trying to waste the rest of the drow gods to be the lone drow god. Plus to top it all off the Spider Queen hasn't made the major kind of mistakes Bane and Cyric has made. Bane being killed was his major screw up and Cyric going insane for a number of years was his. Yeah Lloth has had her share of bad luck too, but at least she didn't get herself killed or put on trial. Lloth has far reaching plans that she has taken her time on and now finally we are going to see if her goals come to past. As for Bane I believe he has goals set in motion but I think he is letting Cyric get to him where his vision is alittle off balance. To me Cyric is just to stupid to have every god against him that one day a number of them will get together and storm his plane to kill him. Cyric to me is just not a smart god.
GothicDan 08-25-07, 09:42 PM	I think Lolth's attempted Seldarine coup, banishment, and subsequent temporary loss of divinity was her 'big mess up.' :)
Vasyek 08-26-07, 03:06 PM	She has taken over Moander's portfolio sometime ago and it looks like she is trying to waste the rest of the drow gods to be the lone drow god. She has none of Moander's portfolios, she's just masquerading as him to exploit the remnants of his faith. Finder was the one to inherit Moander's divinity, albeit in altered form. As for her recent ardor to dispose of her lessers in the pantheon, that is commendable, but though she may succeed this time, at least as far as the non-Eilistraees are concerned, given the extent to which Vhaerun & company are estranged from each other, their lesser individual power, and comparatively scant numbers of faithful it probably shouldn't have taken her so long. Either she wasn't putting as serious an effort into their destruction as she should have for the last few millenia, which would rather fit with Snarkbone's portrayal of her as aimless, or she was doing everything she could and they survived through her incompetence or their ingenuity, neither of which would bode particularly well for her current scheme. To me Cyric is just to stupid to have every god against him that one day a number of them will get together and storm his plane to kill him. Cyric to me is just not a smart god. A massed divine assault Cyric is no more a pressing concern for him than it is for Bane, Lolth, Shar, or Talos. Bane has as much reason to be hated in general for his ambitions as Cyric does, and if you want to get into grudges based on actions, there are bound to be plenty who have a bone to pick with him for various losses/inconveniences they or their allies suffered over the Time of Troubles, Tempus probably hasn't forgotten Bane's past attempt to usurp the war portfolio any more than the present Mystra is liable to disregard the rather blatant implications of his history with her predecessor, and then you have Loviatar, Malar, and Talona, who may well have developed a fondness for not having him constantly breathing down their necks and dragging them into his messes. On top of all of this, his closest and most powerful allies are out of the picture, many of his devout followers and the bastions of his faith have been ravaged over the course of the Banedeath, and in addition to his traditional foes he now has an equally ruthless and ambitious greater god to contend with as well. Lolth has always been an isolated deity. She has the hatred of the Seldarine, who are far more unified than the Faerunian pantheon, to deal with in addition to the loathing directed against her from within her own pantheon, and her followers are constantly beset by the likes of the illithid, duergar, derro, aboleths, sahuagin, and so forth. She is to be commended for thriving in spite of all this, but it does not change the fact that her position has been and remains a delicate one. Shar and Talos I'll condense since I don't have much in particular to say about their current/past situations, but neither can honestly claim there is anyone in the divine realm that has any real fondness for them. Indeed, both are almost universally despised as well... even Talos' 'subordinates' (especially his subordinates, actually) and would be interested in seeing a plot to weaken or destroy him succeed, and what alliances either of them have established are exclusively those of convenience or duress. Like Lolth, Shar has always been essentially on her own and Talos is arguably in a worse position still. Any of them, with the possible exception of Shar, would be almost assured to fall before the coordinated onslaught of multiple gods, all of them have enough enemies to make it a possibility, and all of their alliances are fragile to nonexistant. There isn't much they could do about it if it happened, but an anti-Cyric/Bane/Lolth/Shar/Talos god coalition isn't likely to form as long as they have enough power to cow or at least threaten individual enemies and don't pursue (or, in case of Bane or Cyric, don't continue to pursue) courses of action that are outrageous enough to stir the pantheon as a whole from the myriad goals and disputes that keep it occupied. With all the other enemies the gods have within the pantheon, and in some cases outside of it, a concerted effort to dispose of him would be the same as inviting all the other gods they have reason to oppose (or be opposed by) to exploit the protracted diversion of resources and attention that such a task would necessarily require of them. No one would shed a tear over the deaths of any of them, but no one wants to compromise themselves to the benefit of their rivals in the process of making it happen either.
Eccerion 08-27-07, 10:53 AM	There are two main reasons why the gods havnt rallied together and directly confronted any common enemies they might have. Firstly any such actions would almost instantly ignite a divine war and that would bring granddaddy Ao down to kick em back in line, something none of them want to risk after what happened during the ToT. Secondly gods dont usally go head to head with eachother because even if they win, they will be left weakened and almost assuredly beset upon by some other oppertunistic diety wanting to cash in on the folly of others. Cyric is a prime example of this: After the ToT not only did he get the combined powers of Baal, Bane and Myrkul, but he went and managed to steal some of Masks power as well as all of Leiras (the former godess of illusion). This made him arguably the singel most powerful god on Faerun, and the only thing that kept him in check was the fact he went ko-ko for a while, had his own church running around like decapitated chickens and messing up eachothers plans, and made enemies out of pretty much every other diety, thus causing them to activly oppose his plans on the prime material plane. Lloth I have no doubt would gain great power if she eliminated the other drow gods and took their portfolios for her own, as that would make her the goddess of all almost all aspects of drow existance along with all the other miscilanious aspects they embody.
1 ton ghost 08-28-07, 02:11 PM	conservatively speaking, smart money is on Bane, though Cyric is far more sneaky and underhanded. -he is older, been through this before so to speak -cyric has way more enemies, fewer supporters. mystra, kelemvor, bane, mask all have major vendettas w/ him. -others have more to gain by eliminating cyric than bane -LE structure of Bane promotes unity and is more effective when waging war vs. Cyricists (CE) who often fall to infighting -zhentil keep; allied w/ Shar & some drow, both could stand to pick up some power by opposing cyric, not like most neutal and good types would care, Hell, they might support them
Ulicus 08-29-07, 11:06 AM	Assuming "Bane" isn't Cyric in disguise anyway (or, as he is in my campaign: "Cyric posing as Xvim posing as Bane"), my money is on Cyric for the reasons already elaborated on by Mirtek. Besides, I lost all respect for Bane after reading the Avatar Trilogy. I mean, seriously, Bane and Myrkul were like Xykon and Redcloak. Except Bane didn't make me laugh as much.
Mandras 08-29-07, 01:53 PM	If it came down to the worshippers fighting too, it would be Bane, because they are more organized and disciplined ... According to the philosopher, Ly Tin Wheedle, chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organised. (T. Pratchett) Also Bane's got Fzoul, and Scyulla Darkhope (Sp.). :P It may be a surprise for You but the canon says that in the winter of 1375 the Scyulla kicks the bucket in the skies of Shadowdale (meaning he gets killed for good by adventurers). Cyric has no allies, he is too unpredictable and he is still slightly insane. Well, they say insanity is only step away from brilliance. Read the Cyrinishad novel for instance. The Bane is too ... how to say ... predictable in his actions. I would place my bets on Cyric. Best Regards, Mandras
Ilist 08-30-07, 04:29 PM	I don’t see the point in arguing about what god would win a head on fight. Sure Cyric has on paper more followers but as far as I know a lot of “allies” and otherwise associates of the Zhentarim and Church of Bane pay lip service to the black Hand when dealing with the faithful and trying to get on their good side, which also gives him some kind of a boost (perhaps similar to a cub of coffee) While it doesn’t sound of much neither does a single raindrop, but enough raindrops and you have a flood. That aside however the whole thing is like arguing who would win a bare knuckled boxing fight; G.W Bush or 50 Cent / or who would be last standing in a drinking competition; Hillary Clinton or Paris Hilton. We could argue back and forth, until the end of time but that still wouldn’t make such a ridicules even ever occur (however entertaining it might be) As for which church is strong enough to kill of its rival and every single “faithful”: In my view – neither. Each Church and its members have under gone so many trials and disasters that’s each have demonstrated that no matter what is thrown at them, they will endure Even with the death of Bane many followers still believed (blindly you might say) that he lived. Even when the worshippers of Cyric rolled into Zhentil Keep under the Banedeath the Banites fought back – on their own until they were beaten and those not captured and “persuaded” into worship of Cyric, fled and hid in the sewers rather than adopt a new deity, even if it meant having no god. When Xvim rose as a god many former faithful of Bane flocked to him eager to serve the son of their former god, however even then a very few clang on to their faith in Bane. Despite their God dying, their temples burned or taken over and all the attempts to wipe them out or fore them into submission. Despite everything they struggled one, many taking new faiths as a cheap alternative. So when Bane was reborn the faithful came running home. True not all the lost sheep’s came home to the flock but in no time compared to the somewhat meagre following Xvim had achieved, The Church of Bane was on the rise again with both old and new followers joining. Call it blind faith, fanaticism, or stupidity, in the end the followers of Bane took almost every punishment fate could dish out and through it all the church of Bane is as strong, if not more so, today then before his death. Cyric on the other hand is no push over either. Despite rising as a new god and having to find his place among the other gods, despite going mad and having civil wars raging amongst his own followers, despite the Tyrantfog, Xvim caused to remove any trace of Cyrics believers and despite the fact that Cyric has alienated almost every single other god by acting as a spoilt child who wants everyone’s gifts at Christmas, instead of being content with his own, Cyrics flock is very numerous and for all I know spreading and is still firmly planted in the western half of the Zhentarim despite the Zhentarim have tried replacing followers of Cyricts with those of Bane and despite going mad, having some of “his” portfolios stolen by Xvim, and the Bane rising, one of the very gods he based his own divinity upon, Cyric still stands, fierce and slightly insane to take on the world, literally. Yet again one cannot overlook that Cyric is in the lead when it comes to the number of be livers and yes they are spread out throughout different cells making finding and removing great numbers of them hard to say the least, however as far as I know this structure makes it difficult for the church to work together as a whole. Different cells have different agendas and infighting is common, while almost removed form the reformed Bane church which is not only more organised but also stands amongst more “friends” so to speak. Bane can count on other evil gods to at least not openly stand in his way for the time being and – a little thing I liked when I read the Prince of lies, it seems Cyric dos not welcome orcs into his realm-after-death, while it seems to be the case with Bane. Need any heavy lifting done or weaves of canon fodder = orcs, so way to go for Cyric, he has managed to push a whole race of evil henchmen away. Regardless of the strength and weakness of either god, fact is, while some members of either faiths eager awaits the chance to crush the non-believers in an all out holy war, neither faith can afford it Both churches are struggling against other fait, both god and ill and organizations which dos not share any of their points of view. Both faiths are struggling against each other, no doubt there, but a full scale war would only tire both faction and leave who ever win (if any could managed to win) weak and vulnerable against other foes, which would seize the day to kick an enemy that was lying down, ensuring that the winner, or more likely, the two used-up churches would cease to be any larger treat for many years to come…..
MarkHall 08-30-07, 09:23 PM	Leira. Leira ALWAYS wins.
captaincarot 08-31-07, 12:29 PM	getting all of the other gods of faerun to pull in one direction and get rid of either cyric or bane would be like trying to tie knots in an eel. it would be fun trying but it aint gonna happen. as for them wiping each other out they have both demonstrated auch an outstanding level of incompitance that they would most likely wipe themself out in the attempt.
Valten 09-03-07, 12:09 PM	Kind of moving away from the direct conflicts itself but I think it's still relevant anyone know what books the western zhentarim are in lately or will be in? Since the Cyricists dominate that side nothing more has been said about them after Cloak and Dagger really :|.