| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| bitter thorn09-21-06, 05:56 PM | Dead Magic Zones disrupt shadow and divine magic also, correct? |
| Jiggawha09-21-06, 06:03 PM | Yes, if you mean Shadow Weave Magic then no. |
| Mordent_Sage09-22-06, 08:25 AM | An antimagic field stops all magic (i.e. arcane, divine, Shadow Weave). A dead magic zone stops only arcane and divine, but the Shadow Weave was created after the Time of Troubles, so it is uneffected by dead magic zones. However, spells that just effect shadows, or spells cast by a shadow themed PrC are not, nessesserally, Shadow Weave. |
| Jiggawha09-22-06, 08:46 AM | We don't know when Shadow Weave's been created but it's certainly been there before ToT. Maybe it even existed during the War of the Light and Darkness. |
| The Simbul09-22-06, 11:40 AM | Existing dead magic zones do not affect characters with the Shadow Weave Magic feat, because the Shadow Weave has not seen enough use (and abuse) for it to have sustained any major damage. Thus, most dead magic zones are exclusive to Mystra's weave. That said, dead magic zones can still be created in the Shadow Weave. Rare events like destroying a shadow weave artifact, shattering a shadow weave mythal, the death of an avatar (or a deity) who draws upon the shadow weave, or just excessive influx or outpouring of magical energy can all cause such a thing to occur. Likewise, spells created soley for that purpose, like rend shadow weave, can also be used to create dead magic zones that (only) affect shadow weave spellcasters. |
| Karsus the Mad09-22-06, 06:35 PM | To expand on what The Simbul stated: Dead Magic Zones are an area where a weave (whether the Weave or Shadow Weave) is absent. A Dead Magic Zone in the Weave has absolutely no effect on the Shadow Weave, and vice versa. It is possible to have a Dead Magic Zone in both weaves, but this would be two different Dead Magic Zones, each affecting a different weave. btw, the Shadow Weave was in use long, long, long before the ToT. Earliest facts point to Netheril and possibly earlier during the Imaskari Empire. |
| bitter thorn09-25-06, 12:17 AM | Thank you kind sages! So, mechanically in FR, dead magic zones (unless otherwise specified) nullify all spells (arcane or divine), spell like abilities, and supernatural abilities unless they come from someone or something with the Shadow Weave Magic feat. On the other hand, a shadow weave dead magic zone nullifies all spells (arcane or divine), spell like abilities, and supernatural abilities that come from someone or something with the Shadow Weave Magic feat. From a lore and mechanical stand point, do all Shadovar from the City of Shade have the Shadow Weave Magic feat, or do some of them still use the weave? |
| The Simbul09-25-06, 02:56 AM | Thank you kind sages! So, mechanically in FR, dead magic zones (unless otherwise specified) nullify all spells (arcane or divine), spell like abilities, and supernatural abilities unless they come from someone or something with the Shadow Weave Magic feat. On the other hand, a shadow weave dead magic zone nullifies all spells (arcane or divine), spell like abilities, and supernatural abilities that come from someone or something with the Shadow Weave Magic feat.Yes.From a lore and mechanical stand point, do all Shadovar from the City of Shade have the Shadow Weave Magic feat, or do some of them still use the weave?Nope, they do not all use the Shadow Weave. Many of them still draw on the Weave, including basically all of the multiclassed Fighter/Sorcerers that make up their 3,000 strong armies, who dont take the Shadow Weave Magic feat anywhere in their level-up progression. I would assume, as with Shar's clergy, that only the more priviliged Shadovar are made privy to "Shar's greatest secret". |
| bitter thorn09-25-06, 07:11 AM | Cool. So it would not be unreasonable to assume that epic threats from the City of Shade would be using the Shadow Weave Magic feat, but most clerics and sorcerers would still be using the Weave. I presume that a Shadow Weave user doesn't customarily still access the Weave. Is it even possable for them to do so? |
| Ripe09-25-06, 07:19 AM | No. You may use either Weave or Shadow Weave. Not both. |
| bitter thorn09-25-06, 07:24 AM | Got it! Thanks for the help guys! |
| Alac Luin09-25-06, 08:52 PM | Just a note, if you use psionics in your game. Psionics do not draw on the Weave or shadow weave. They can function in a Dead magic zone (but not an anti-magic zone). (I hope I didn't open up a can of worms :) ) |
| bitter thorn09-25-06, 09:53 PM | No we haven't banned Psionics outright, but we avoid them like the plague. It shouldn't be an issue. I'm pondering some issues surrounding a Stonelands plotline. |
| Zsych09-26-06, 06:29 PM | I'll just step in to disagree with the Simbul here :) I would say that all mages on Shade enclave use the Shadow-weave. On Shade, it's not really a secret, nor does it need to be(heavily influenced by Shar as it is). Also, the use of different weaves would cause considerable problems, as shadow magic using wizards wouldn't really be able to teach normal wizards, since they can't properly sense or use, each other's magic. --- On a side point... do the Shadow-weave or the Weave even exist on the Shadow plane? The Weave and Shadow-weave existing on Toril to handle the defective native magic makes sense, but on other worlds(like the Hells, where Shadow-magic also exists), there would be no shadow-weave to draw shadow magic from. You'd only have native shadow-magic there. ... Anyway, in a world where shadow-magic is native, it would in no way be controlled by Shar, and thus wouldn't really be her secret.. even if the Shades choose to be careful about it on Toril, where Shar does have control. |
| Ripe09-26-06, 06:52 PM | ...On a side point... do the Shadow-weave or the Weave even exist on the Shadow plane? The Weave and Shadow-weave existing on Toril to handle the defective native magic makes sense, but on other worlds(like the Hells, where Shadow-magic also exists), there would be no shadow-weave to draw shadow magic from. You'd only have native shadow-magic there. Well, logic dictate that Shadow Weave does not exist anywhere outside Toril [or Realmspace] since it exist together with the Weave [by being it's shadow]. And since Weave does not exist on Shadow plane then neither is Shadow Weave. Also, do take note that Shadow magic does not necessarily use Shadow Weave [sidebar on page 110 of Tome of Magic is wrong], Shadow Magic casters on Toril use both weaves. Shades use Shadow magic, but that does not mean that they also use Shadow Weave [some of them do, some of them don't]. |
| Zsych09-26-06, 07:12 PM | When i say Shadow magic, i mean Shadow-weave Magic, or it's equivalent on other planes... A Mage with the Shadow-weave feat doesn't lose his magic when he steps off of Toril... He has native Shadow-magic(paralleled by Shadow-weave magic on Toril) available for his use. ... And i seriously dislike this 'Shadow-weave exists in the Shadows of the Weave' concept. The Shadow-weave was supposed to be an independent construct that just happened to be named the Shadow-weave, not because it had anything to do with the Weave(which it was sorta copied off of). If the Shadow-weave were directly linked to the Weave, then dead magic zones would effect it too. - Anyway, the point is that if half use the Shadow-weave and half don't, then the individual halves can't share magic, can't work together on magic, and end up damaging the productivity of the enclave... plus on the Shadow plane, there was no reason to not take up Shadow magic... since it wasn't controlled by Shar. ---------- On a side point... one would think that if Shar really wanted it, her knowledge of having constructed the Shadow-weave, may be enough to create similar things on other planes, under similar conditions(which seem to be rather rare). At the least it should've granted her understanding of the nature of magic far surpassing any other diety of Toril(having had to understand the Weave, and then craft the Shadow-weave using the native raw magic). |
| Ripe09-27-06, 05:33 AM | When i say Shadow magic, i mean Shadow-weave Magic, or it's equivalent on other planes... A Mage with the Shadow-weave feat doesn't lose his magic when he steps off of Toril... He has native Shadow-magic(paralleled by Shadow-weave magic on Toril) available for his use. Once again Shadow Magic had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with Shadow Weave. Shadow mages use either weave without any penalty. They just share the name. ... And i seriously dislike this 'Shadow-weave exists in the Shadows of the Weave' concept. The Shadow-weave was supposed to be an independent construct that just happened to be named the Shadow-weave, not because it had anything to do with the Weave(which it was sorta copied off of). If the Shadow-weave were directly linked to the Weave, then dead magic zones would effect it too. Not necessarilly. They're independen enough not to be affected by things that affect one. And besided both FRCS and MoF state that Shadow Weave is formed by negative spaces between Weave. Anyway, the point is that if half use the Shadow-weave and half don't, then the individual halves can't share magic, can't work together on magic, and end up damaging the productivity of the enclave... plus on the Shadow plane, there was no reason to not take up Shadow magic... since it wasn't controlled by Shar. First of all, spells are the same. Spell casted using Weave and one casted using Shadow Weave have exactly the same verbal, somatic, material, focus or XP cost. Second, while Shadow Weave users can anyone how to cast spells, teaching someone how to touch and use something that does not exist is almost impossible. So I think that only those Shadovar who lived on Toril BEFORE Karsus casted his avatar spell [and City of Shade fled to Shadow plane] could logically posses Shadow Weave Magic feat. I agree that there was no reason not to use Shadow magic on Shadow plane, but there is no reason why they'd use Shadow Weave magic. On a side point... one would think that if Shar really wanted it, her knowledge of having constructed the Shadow-weave, may be enough to create similar things on other planes, under similar conditions(which seem to be rather rare). At the least it should've granted her understanding of the nature of magic far surpassing any other diety of Toril(having had to understand the Weave, and then craft the Shadow-weave using the native raw magic). True, Shar's understanding of the nature of magic is larger than that of most other Toril's deities but it's also very limited considering Shar's caster level [19 for most arcane spells, 18 for spells from Evocation and Transmutation schools]. The greatest impact her low caster level had on Shadow Weave is that it most likely cannot support any spell higher than 9th level [including Epic spells] since Shar can't cast those spells herself [so how could she experiment on the Weave with them to find out how Weave opperate them?]. As for sharing her knowledge... Shar is godess of Secrets [among other things] so the fact that she allready spread knowledge of Shadow Weave is much. Not to mention that I seriously doubt that anyone other than Greater deity could create some weave-equivalent. |
| bitter thorn09-27-06, 09:50 AM | First of all, spells are the same. Spell casted using Weave and one casted using Shadow Weave have exactly the same verbal, somatic, material, focus or XP cost. Second, while Shadow Weave users can anyone how to cast spells, teaching someone how to touch and use something that does not exist is almost impossible. So I think that only those Shadovar who lived on Toril BEFORE Karsus casted his avatar spell [and City of Shade fled to Shadow plane] could logically posses Shadow Weave Magic feat. I agree that there was no reason not to use Shadow magic on Shadow plane, but there is no reason why they'd use Shadow Weave magic. True, Shar's understanding of the nature of magic is larger than that of most other Toril's deities but it's also very limited considering Shar's caster level [19 for most arcane spells, 18 for spells from Evocation and Transmutation schools]. The greatest impact her low caster level had on Shadow Weave is that it most likely cannot support any spell higher than 9th level [including Epic spells] since Shar can't cast those spells herself [so how could she experiment on the Weave with them to find out how Weave opperate them?]. As for sharing her knowledge... Shar is godess of Secrets [among other things] so the fact that she allready spread knowledge of Shadow Weave is much. Not to mention that I seriously doubt that anyone other than Greater deity could create some weave-equivalent. As to only pre Karsus folly casters being able to use the Shadow Magic feat, I'm under the impression that there are write ups for younger mid level Shadowvar that have the feat. As for Shars followers not being able to use epic spells, I believe several of the Princes of Shade have the requisite feats etc in thier write ups. I also suspect that the demiplane (?) of shadow supports both the weave and shadow weave. |
| Ripe09-27-06, 10:52 AM | ...As for Shars followers not being able to use epic spells, I believe several of the Princes of Shade have the requisite feats etc in thier write ups. ... I didn't say that they don't have epic spellcasting. I said that Shadow Weave presented in current form [created by Shar after she reverse ingeneered the Weave] logically could not support Epic spells. As to only pre Karsus folly casters being able to use the Shadow Magic feat, I'm under the impression that there are write ups for younger mid level Shadowvar that have the feat. I also suspect that the demiplane (?) of shadow supports both the weave and shadow weave. Yes, if Plane of Shadow support both Weave and Shadow Weave then yes, they can have the feat. Otherwise there is no logical reason which would allow it. The problem is that most likely Plane of Shadow does not support them. |
| Argaud09-27-06, 02:05 PM | I didn't say that they don't have epic spellcasting. I said that Shadow Weave presented in current form [created by Shar after she reverse ingeneered the Weave] logically could not support Epic spells. Shar controls the Shadow Wave, but is there any evidence she created it? I read somewhere (possibly a book, so maybe not canon) that the Shadow Wave was created by Karsus' Avatar spell, as an accident. |
| Ripe09-27-06, 03:31 PM | Shar controls the Shadow Wave, but is there any evidence she created it? I read somewhere (possibly a book, so maybe not canon) that the Shadow Wave was created by Karsus' Avatar spell, as an accident. Well, that theory is new [at least to me]. The two most cited are: - Shar experimented on the Weave [reverse engeneering] and then used knowledge gained that way to create Shadow Weave - Shadow Weave is created simoultanously with the Weave [when Selune throwed part of her magical essence on Shar] but remained unknown untill Shar discovered it |
| Karsus the Mad09-27-06, 04:21 PM | Karsus's Folly wasn't the time the SW was created. That was a statement given to Gaeleron by Melegaunt in the Return of the Archwizard trilogy (he also said the W and SW split, and that whole/heavy magic was the last remants of pre-split magic. Neither are true). He apparently lacked any knowledge of it:P It was in use before that. Telemont, while living on Karsus's Enclave, used the SW, and a SW mythallar was also built. There's also the possibility that the Imaskari utilized the SW, and Imaskar fell long before Karsus was even born. |
| Argaud09-27-06, 08:38 PM | Karsus's Folly wasn't the time the SW was created. That was a statement given to Gaeleron by Melegaunt in the Return of the Archwizard trilogy (he also said the W and SW split, and that whole/heavy magic was the last remants of pre-split magic. Neither are true). He apparently lacked any knowledge of it:P It was in use before that. Telemont, while living on Karsus's Enclave, used the SW, and a SW mythallar was also built. There's also the possibility that the Imaskari utilized the SW, and Imaskar fell long before Karsus was even born. If Shade's mythallar was already SW magic by the time of Mystril's death, why did they move the city to the Plane of Shadows? It wouldn't have been necessary if it was a SW creation, the city would have been safe while the other (normal Weave) cities crashed. So Shade's mythallar had to be a normal one by the time of Karsus Big Mistake. It became a SW mythallar later one, probably due to Lord Shadow's experiments or modifications. What makes you think the Imaskari used the SW? |
| Karsus the Mad09-28-06, 08:33 AM | If Shade's mythallar was already SW magic by the time of Mystril's death, why did they move the city to the Plane of Shadows? It wouldn't have been necessary if it was a SW creation, the city would have been safe while the other (normal Weave) cities crashed.I never said Shades mythallar was SW at that time. It is now, but that could have changed during their exile. I said there was a SW mythallar built on Karsus Enclave before the Fall. It was a mini-mythallar, that rested inside of a simulacrum: effectively giving it a continous duration and life. So Shade's mythallar had to be a normal one by the time of Karsus Big Mistake. It became a SW mythallar later one, probably due to Lord Shadow's experiments or modifications. Something like that. The whole thing with Shade during the Fall is confusing, since there's different histories presented about it. Some say it fled to the SP during KA, some say before the KA, other say they fled purposely, others say it was a mere coincidence they decided to do their planar experiments just in time to save themselves. What makes you think the Imaskari used the SW? It's a theory that I've seen on here. Thus I said it might be a possibility:) They used a SW artifact called the Shadowstone. Either way the SW was in use before KA, therefore could not possibly have been created during it. |
| MaskedOne09-28-06, 07:24 PM | The Imaskar portion requires a bit of cross referencing to work out properly because half the details are in a book that was printed in 2e before the current version of the Shadow Weave existed. Pertinent points to it though are: 1) The Imaskari bypassed Mystra's Weave as we know it. This is pointed out by Madryoch (Oriseus in earlier chapters) in The Shadow Stone and Madryoch is shown wielding this non-weave magic in the same book. 2) Aeron Morieth was exposed to this alternate magic and his casting methodology forcibly altered by it through the use of an artifact that he later destroyed. The artifact if Madryoch is to be believed (and he had little reason to lie) was of Imaskari design. Madryoch's testimony here is supported in part by a handful of points that can be found in the novel though I guess if Madryoch really wanted to decieve Morieth then much of the supporting evidence could be fabricated. 3) The FRCS depicts Aeron Morieth as a Shadow Adept, thus accounting for his alternate form of magic. Though, I will say that the 3E shadow weave behaves a little differently from what Morieth wielded in the book. He is stated in the FRCS to have destroyed a Shadow Weave Artifact in approximately the same time and place as he destroyed the Shadow Stone. Now, not having my books on hand or perfect recall, I'll concede that it might be possible to argue that Madryoch was lying through his teeth about the origins of his power and had fabricated a great deal of evidence. Another possibility would be that Madryoch's power had shifted twice and the second time it went Shadow Weave without Madryoch noticing. However, cross referencing between the FRCS and The Shadow Stone I can make a relatively solid case for Imaskari use of the Shadow Weave. I CANNOT say the same for what I'm aware of from Denning's trilogy where as far as I know Melegaunt (who is not old enough to be a first hand witness and is given to deception) merely implies that the Weave split and Gaeleron who has no direct knowledge and precious little evidence makes the leap of logic and subscribes to a split weave theory wholeheartedly. Considering the other evidence of a Pre-Fall Shadow Weave that Karsus the Mad has mentioned, I tend to take my initial conclusion at face value. Meaning Madryoch was mostly honest about his powers and the Shadow Stone was an Imaskari artifact which linked Morieth to the Shadow Weave. |
| bitter thorn10-01-06, 11:24 PM | Yes.Nope, they do not all use the Shadow Weave. Many of them still draw on the Weave, including basically all of the multiclassed Fighter/Sorcerers that make up their 3,000 strong armies, who dont take the Shadow Weave Magic feat anywhere in their level-up progression. I would assume, as with Shar's clergy, that only the more priviliged Shadovar are made privy to "Shar's greatest secret". What do you think the highest CR NPC in who is a weave user in the Shades organization would be? |
| bitter thorn10-01-06, 11:29 PM | I didn't say that they don't have epic spellcasting. I said that Shadow Weave presented in current form [created by Shar after she reverse ingeneered the Weave] logically could not support Epic spells. I'm a little fuzzy on the distinction here.:thinks: |
| Ripe10-02-06, 08:04 AM | I'm a little fuzzy on the distinction here.:thinks: My point was that since Shades have Epic spellcasting ability, Shadow Weave obviously support Epic Spells. But since SW creation was described as "Shar experimented on the Weave and used the knowledge gained that way to create Shadow Weave" it would logically follow that SW cannot support Epic Spells. Why? Because Shar herself cannot cast Epic spells [her caster level is only 19] so she could not gain knowledge how Epic spells interact with the Weave. So the two lores [Shades spellcasting ability and Shadow Weave creation] are in collision and one of them is wrong [either Shades cannot cast Epic spells or Shar didn't create SW]. |
| ericlboyd10-02-06, 09:14 AM | My point was that since Shades have Epic spellcasting ability, Shadow Weave obviously support Epic Spells. But since SW creation was described as "Shar experimented on the Weave and used the knowledge gained that way to create Shadow Weave" it would logically follow that SW cannot support Epic Spells. Why? Because Shar herself cannot cast Epic spells [her caster level is only 19] so she could not gain knowledge how Epic spells interact with the Weave. So the two lores [Shades spellcasting ability and Shadow Weave creation] are in collision and one of them is wrong [either Shades cannot cast Epic spells or Shar didn't create SW]. You're missing a third choice: Shar's caster level was set too low in F&P. --Eric |
| Ripe10-02-06, 10:21 AM | You're missing a third choice: Shar's caster level was set too low in F&P. --Eric Which is the deffinately the case. Especially considering stats given for her 2nd edition avatar from Faihs and Avatars [Cleric 35, Mystic 30, Thief 25, Mage 20]. Personally, I'd wish You do an 3.5 update to F&P. |
| bitter thorn10-02-06, 10:40 AM | OK, I follow you now. My point was that since Shades have Epic spellcasting ability, Shadow Weave obviously support Epic Spells. But since SW creation was described as "Shar experimented on the Weave and used the knowledge gained that way to create Shadow Weave" it would logically follow that SW cannot support Epic Spells. Why? Because Shar herself cannot cast Epic spells [her caster level is only 19] so she could not gain knowledge how Epic spells interact with the Weave. So the two lores [Shades spellcasting ability and Shadow Weave creation] are in collision and one of them is wrong [either Shades cannot cast Epic spells or Shar didn't create SW]. |
| Karsus the Mad10-02-06, 11:18 AM | Personally I wish deities weren't statted at all. My point was that since Shades have Epic spellcasting ability, Shadow Weave obviously support Epic Spells. Yup. But since SW creation was described as "Shar experimented on the Weave and used the knowledge gained that way to create Shadow Weave" it would logically follow that SW cannot support Epic Spells. Why? Because Shar herself cannot cast Epic spells [her caster level is only 19] so she could not gain knowledge how Epic spells interact with the Weave. Hey! Neither can Mystra! Remember, all you need is the ability to cast 9th level spells. 19th caster level is 2 level more than needed. CL and HD and PrC wise, Shar meets the requirements just as well as Mystra. A Wiz 17/Ftr 4 can cast epic spells. Mystra doesn't have the Epic Spellcasting feat, so technically, Mystra can't cast epic spells:rolleyes: So the two lores [Shades spellcasting ability and Shadow Weave creation] are in collision and one of them is wrong [either Shades cannot cast Epic spells or Shar didn't create SW]. Neither are in collision of eachother. Shar modeled her weave on Mystra's. Mystra's weave can utilize both true 10th+ magic (tho' Mystra Bans this) and Epic magic, just as Shar's weave. |
| yetiman10-02-06, 11:26 AM | The last load of comments about whether the shadow weave supports epic magic seems to be working on the basis that the person who makes an object can work it best. Why? If Shar made or discovered the shadow weave and gave access of it to favoured casters, but is too inexperienced in magic to be able to use epic magic herself, why does that mean that more powerful casters cannot use it better than her. Her incompetance does not mean that more brilliant minds and expert magicians, now that they are awoken to the possibilities, cannot investigate and experiment further. It comes down to whether Shadow Weave has been in existence for a long time and she just discovered it or whether she created it outright. If the second then an argument that it is bound by her capabilities is strong but not conclusive, many things have been made better than expected by luck. If the first, then the shadow weave can have any number of capabilities regardless of Shar, she might have been the first to rediscover it but that does not mean all other users can be no better than her current capabilities. |
| Ripe10-02-06, 11:51 AM | ...Hey! Neither can Mystra! Remember, all you need is the ability to cast 9th level spells. 19th caster level is 2 level more than needed. CL and HD and PrC wise, Shar meets the requirements just as well as Mystra. A Wiz 17/Ftr 4 can cast epic spells. Mystra doesn't have the Epic Spellcasting feat, so technically, Mystra can't cast epic spells:rolleyes: Why did I think that for Epic spellcasting you need full spellcasting ability [read that as level 20] in a class? :confused: Oh well, better go and hide in shame:embarrass . That said, the idea of Wiz 17/Ftr 4 capable of casting Epic Spells somehow seem wrong to me. Neither are in collision of eachother. Shar modeled her weave on Mystra's. Mystra's weave can utilize both true 10th+ magic (tho' Mystra Bans this) and Epic magic, just as Shar's weave. Of course they are not. My line of tought came from my missremembering prerequisites for Epic Spellcasting. |
| bitter thorn10-03-06, 07:38 AM | Are dead magic zones adressed any place besides MoF? |
| MaskedOne10-03-06, 12:50 PM | FRCS, I believe. Maybe PGtF but other than the Initiate of Mystra feat (or revised Shadow Weave feats) which has effects linked to them, I wouldn't bet on it. |
| BrennonGoldeye10-03-06, 04:10 PM | That said, the idea of Wiz 17/Ftr 4 capable of casting Epic Spells somehow seem wrong to me. Seems to me that would be the exact kind of mage who would go for epic magic first. No fancy PrC here. Just a little fisticufs and a whole lotta magic.:mage: |
| Karsus the Mad10-03-06, 08:35 PM | Seems to me that would be the exact kind of mage who would go for epic magic first. No fancy PrC here. Just a little fisticufs and a whole lotta magic.:mage: Bingo! Here's a :cookie: |
| BrennonGoldeye10-04-06, 10:37 AM | Yum, cookies.........:tongue: |
| Alediran10-04-06, 10:42 AM | If that Wiz 17/Ftr 4 took Practised Spellcasting (Wizard) then it would have a caster lvl of 21, completely logical for Epic Spellcasting. |
| Ripe10-04-06, 03:50 PM | If that Wiz 17/Ftr 4 took Practised Spellcasting (Wizard) then it would have a caster lvl of 21, completely logical for Epic Spellcasting. But he would still have spellcasting capacity of 17th level wizard. Or have they errated Practiced Spellcaster feat? |
| The Simbul10-04-06, 06:07 PM | You dont need to be a 21st level spellcaster to take the epic spellcasting feat. You only need 24 ranks in spellcraft and the associated knowledge skill for your class, and the ability to cast 9th level spells in order to take the epic spellcasting feat. |
| bitter thorn10-08-06, 07:57 AM | Yes.Nope, they do not all use the Shadow Weave. Many of them still draw on the Weave, including basically all of the multiclassed Fighter/Sorcerers that make up their 3,000 strong armies, who dont take the Shadow Weave Magic feat anywhere in their level-up progression. I would assume, as with Shar's clergy, that only the more priviliged Shadovar are made privy to "Shar's greatest secret". What do you think the highest CR for an NPC in who is a weave user in the Shades organization would be? Ballpark any one? I don't think I've seen any uber high level ones. |
| Red_Rabbit10-09-06, 11:36 AM | For the Record Shadow weave is thousands of years old way way before ToT, Shar is the only Goddess that uses Shadow Weave Magic ATM (unless you change that). Right now there are No Dead Shadow Weave Magic Zones in the Realms, but as the DM or your DM is more than welcome to change that.Shadow Weave is it's own form of Magic on it's own "weave". The Rabbit P.S. Edit NM I understand what is going on there now with the 24 rank thing |
| bitter thorn10-10-06, 07:26 AM | For the Record Shadow weave is thousands of years old way way before ToT, Shar is the only Goddess that uses Shadow Weave Magic ATM (unless you change that). Right now there are No Dead Shadow Weave Magic Zones in the Realms, but as the DM or your DM is more than welcome to change that.Shadow Weave is it's own form of Magic on it's own "weave". The Rabbit P.S. Edit NM I understand what is going on there now with the 24 rank thing I'm probably going to "find" one in the Stonelands to use as a plot device. We have a rotating DM thing in our group and one of the other players wants to build a hold/settlement in the Stonelands. I'm looking for a plot device to mitigate the sword of Damaclese (sp?) problem associated with having the threat of the Shade Enclave looming over the whole darn game. The whole concept is an excersize in futility and wasted life if the Shades just let them build for a year or two, teleport in some Epic Archmage, and "nuke the site from orbit" so to speak. I think this works quite well. Establish the settlement/fort in a dead shadow magic zone and it basically removes the nuclear option. They may still have to fight medium to high level BBEGs from the enclave, but that's workable for a campaign around 15th level right now. Hence my queries about highest level BBEGs from shade using the weave. If there's not a cannon source I'll get to make one up.:devil: :evillaugh :devil: |
| bitter thorn10-24-06, 03:58 AM | What do you think the highest CR for an NPC in who is a weave user in the Shades organization would be? Ballpark any one? I don't think I've seen any uber high level ones. Anyone? |
| The Ubbergeek10-24-06, 11:18 AM | For the Record Shadow weave is thousands of years old way way before ToT, Shar is the only Goddess that uses Shadow Weave Magic ATM (unless you change that). Right now there are No Dead Shadow Weave Magic Zones in the Realms, but as the DM or your DM is more than welcome to change that.Shadow Weave is it's own form of Magic on it's own "weave". The Rabbit P.S. Edit NM I understand what is going on there now with the 24 rank thing Would there be differences between Dead normal magic and Dead shadow magic? The normal Weave would work onto a Dead shadow weave region? |
| Karsus the Mad10-24-06, 11:38 AM | Would there be differences between Dead normal magic and Dead shadow magic? The normal Weave would work onto a Dead shadow weave region? Dead Magic in FR is simply an area where a weave is absent. A Dead Magic zone in the Weave does not affect the Shadow Weave, since they're two completely different and seperate weaves, and vice versa. |
| The Ubbergeek10-24-06, 03:18 PM | I wonder how could a zone where ALL magics are dead, Weave, Shadow Weave, all that, could spring forth. |
| Alediran10-24-06, 03:55 PM | I wonder how could a zone where ALL magics are dead, Weave, Shadow Weave, all that, could spring forth. Cast Rend Shadow Weave (having the Shadow Weave feat) in a Weave Dead Magic Zone, that is how you can make a Dead Magic Zone where no magic can be cast. |
| Zsych10-24-06, 05:23 PM | Assuming that anyone knows the spell. If that implies a 3rd level Rend Weave spell, things could turn ugly at some point. As for Shar... her stats don't mention her great mastery over raw magic either. Before Mystryl's creation the existing gods had no other source of power... and she must've used it to create her Shadow-weave. Seriously, she should be able to step on Mystra and crush her out of existence(unless she lost more knowledge and power in battles since her creation of the Shadow-weave) Anyway, as i've said before, if the Shadow-weave didn't support magic other than the 1-9 level, then the Shadow mythallar would have no basis for being able to function on Toril(though being made on the Shadow-plane it was probably made outside of the constraints of the Shadow-weave itself... whatever they may be). |
| Karsus the Mad10-24-06, 08:55 PM | Anyway, as i've said before, if the Shadow-weave didn't support magic other than the 1-9 level, then the Shadow mythallar would have no basis for being able to function on Toril(though being made on the Shadow-plane it was probably made outside of the constraints of the Shadow-weave itself... whatever they may be). You forget the mini-shadow-weave mythallar that was around before the Fall. But that's off topic... |
| BrennonGoldeye10-24-06, 09:28 PM | Seriously, she should be able to step on Mystra and crush her out of existence(unless she lost more knowledge and power in battles since her creation of the Shadow-weave) I can always count on you Zsych for new and unique stories Shar tells all her buddies at parties. Oh wait, endless darkness and bitterness. OK, tells herself.:mage: |
| Purple Dragon Knight11-02-06, 10:27 PM | No. You may use either Weave or Shadow Weave. Not both.Are you sure? I had a gnome illustionist PC who dabbled in both Weave once... I was exploiting the PGtoF's updated prerequisite on the Shadow Weave Magic feat: Wis 15 or must worship Shar. Since I wasn't worshipping Shar, and that my Wisdom was 16, I took the feat used it to help buff my illusions, while drawing on the Weave once in a while. I'll recheck the books... more to come! :P |
| Karsus the Mad11-02-06, 10:37 PM | Are you sure? I had a gnome illustionist PC who dabbled in both Weave once... I was exploiting the PGtoF's updated prerequisite on the Shadow Weave Magic feat: Wis 15 or must worship Shar. Since I wasn't worshipping Shar, and that my Wisdom was 16, I took the feat used it to help buff my illusions, while drawing on the Weave once in a while. I'll recheck the books... more to come! :P Magic of Faerun has info on this. I can't recall specifics, but I believe it amounts to either Weave, or Shadow Weave. After tapping the shadow weave (as in having the SW magic feat), you can nolonger tap the Weave. However, a wish, miracle, or similar magic my allow you to "retap" the Weave. |
| Zsych11-03-06, 09:16 AM | @BrennonGoldEye: Glad to have amused you :) But seriously man. If Mystryl was the Weave, and Shar managed to make a mindless darker version of Mystryl with her own power(that she could control without being bound to it)... then her understanding of what Mystryl/Mystra are, and the nature of Weave magic should be amazing. .. You may not know much about your body and it's vulnerabilities, but a doctor who has studied the human body, probably does. |
| Alediran11-03-06, 10:18 AM | I think that Shar stumbled with the Shadow Weave more than created it, she isn't the type of God that creates something. |
| BrennonGoldeye11-03-06, 03:49 PM | Well, considering the Lady we are talking obout , I would hazard a bet that we know next to nothing true about Her. I will admit that Shar is an impresive being who deserves respect .She is my kinda Gal. But She is overmatched. Shar might be able to set up a DBZ battle with Mystra and absorb her power if they were fighting 1 on 1. Reality is Dealing with 80DR worth of pissy immortal comrades.:pile: Shar is in no position to challenge Mystra. She is a dangerous foe. No doubt she can cause trouble or maybe even do a little Dusk Cataclysm of her own. But Mystra is for all intents and purposes the Head of the FR Pantheon. Boy I bet that sentence got immediate:censored: or :clap:. |
| Ripe11-03-06, 05:15 PM | Are you sure? I had a gnome illustionist PC who dabbled in both Weave once... I was exploiting the PGtoF's updated prerequisite on the Shadow Weave Magic feat: Wis 15 or must worship Shar. Since I wasn't worshipping Shar, and that my Wisdom was 16, I took the feat used it to help buff my illusions, while drawing on the Weave once in a while. I'll recheck the books... more to come! :P First line from benefits in feat description: From now on, your spells tap the Shadow Weave instead of the Weave. You use one or the other, you can't use both. And your DM should notice that and warn you about it. |
| Purple Dragon Knight11-03-06, 06:18 PM | Thanks for the reminder Ripe! (t'was two years ago, and didn't play too long in that PBeM campaign) Now that I think of it, yes, I was limiting myself to the Shadow Weave, but I was an ally of Mystra's clergy. :D Boy did some of these Mystrans hate my gnome!!! :D But they knew that 'doing something about that naughty gnome' would have cut off their oh-so precious supply of shadow weave scrolls and wondrous items I was crafting for them, for their own experimentation uses... :D Always turn a lemon into lemonade I say! :D |
| Zsych11-05-06, 05:39 AM | Giving Mystra's clerics items of the shadow-weave to study is a dangerous risk don't you think? Especially if you don't have the Shades' counter-research on the Weave. @Alediran: You forget that Shar is one of the original creators of Toril and everything in Realmspace. It was only after Selune betrayed her and created the sun(to support our type of life-forms) that their sisterly love turned to enmity. Also, it was from pieces of Shar and Selune that Mystryl and the Weave was born. With enough effort, seems she managed to make a Weave of her own.. one that was not a god in it's own right(and probably didn't take up too much of her divine power) ... Anyway, there's no reason for the Shadow-weave to have existed before hand, when no Weave existed for regular magic. ---- @BrennonGoldeye: Guess she'll have to be rather crafty then. Sow discord among the gods and their worshippers(against other groups). Find more worshippers of her own. Also... if just using the Weave is an act of worship to Mystra and makes her stronger, maybe Shar can link herself enough with the Shadow-weave to gain power from it. Let places like Thay turn more to the Shadow-weave, add the Shades to it.. and maybe she can manage to gain a DR or two. (Eating a few evil gods might not be a bad idea either) btw... when did Velsharoon ascend? Was it after ToT? 'cus if you can get permission to have mortals ascend purely for the purpose of absorbing them, then it might offer opportunities to the ill intentioned. |
| Galad11-05-06, 07:42 AM | btw... when did Velsharoon ascend? Was it after ToT? 'cus if you can get permission to have mortals ascend purely for the purpose of absorbing them, then it might offer opportunities to the ill intentioned. Yes I do believe that Velsharoon ascended after the ToT but dont quote me on that. According to FRCS, Talos who I believe was his divine patron has a history of helping powerful mortals ascend to godhood and then making them expend their power in service to him. So I would say that absorbing a demigod would do little for most of the FR gods who could help a mortal ascend. Otherwise it would just be too easy to gain power. Evil would win b/c good gods wouldnt absorb the demigods they helped raise to godhood. |
| Zsych11-05-06, 09:48 AM | From what I recall, Talos feeds on these maggots periodically to maintain his power. |
| bitter thorn03-20-07, 06:26 AM | Can SW users use wands or scrolls created by weave users or vice versa?:confused: |
| Karsus the Mad03-20-07, 08:40 AM | Can SW users use wands or scrolls created by weave users or vice versa?:confused: Non-shadow weave users suffer 1d4 temporary Wisdom damage if the item uses spell completion, spell trigger, or command word activation, and 1 temporary wisdom the first time it is used each day if it's use activate. If it's continuous, the damage occurs at dusk each day or when the user takes off or puts aside the item, whichever comes first. Doesn't mention SW users suffering any penalties from using weave items, aside from the standard limitations of being an SW user. |
| Alediran03-20-07, 08:53 AM | Then I'll suggest that we give SW users the same penalities for using W items. If they don't let us play with their toys, we don't let them play with ours. |
| Karsus the Mad03-20-07, 09:50 AM | Then I'll suggest that we give SW users the same penalities for using W items. If they don't let us play with their toys, we don't let them play with ours. Sounds reasonable:P I think it was more of a rules artefact to make up for the complete lack of any shadow weave magic items in print... |
| Alediran03-20-07, 10:22 AM | Sounds reasonable:P I think it was more of a rules artefact to make up for the complete lack of any shadow weave magic items in print... Screw them for chosing SW and messing with us poor DMs, like Haley Starshine said "If you want to pull the strings, you've got to pay the piper". I'm making my players like Mystra and hate Shar, therefore impeding any urge to become a SW user. |
| Baash03-25-07, 01:56 PM | I hope this isn't too out of topic.. My druid is in a situation where she is held in prison which is build in a dead magic zone. The zone however ends immediately after the door and I managed to get my hands to the other side. Can I now normally for example summon animals with Summon nature's ally outside the dead magic zone? Even more, am I able to wild shape, receive Sending from my fellow adventurers or cast spells that affect me? |
| Karsus the Mad03-25-07, 03:14 PM | I hope this isn't too out of topic.. My druid is in a situation where she is held in prison which is build in a dead magic zone. The zone however ends immediately after the door and I managed to get my hands to the other side. Can I now normally for example summon animals with Summon nature's ally outside the dead magic zone? Even more, am I able to wild shape, receive Sending from my fellow adventurers or cast spells that affect me? I would say that it's completely up to your DM. Being partially out of a dead magic zone is iffy ground. Some will decide it's enough to cast spells, some won't. |
| bitter thorn03-25-07, 09:11 PM | RAW-wise I think you're out of luck on this. If the DM lets it work, they're basically giving you a break to advance the plot. |