Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meldread 04-09-07, 07:29 PM	I am curious as to how Deific Aspects work, and here are my main questions. 1. How, why and when can a deity create an aspect? 2. What exactly does an aspect do that the deity cannot? 3. How is the 'core deity' different from the aspect? 4. Can an aspect expand its power, eventually collecting portfolios that the original deity did not possess? 5. Can an aspect turn upon its 'core deity'? 6. Can a deific aspect break away from its 'cores pantheon' and enter into another pantheon entirely? An example: In the fourth question let us take Shar and suggest that she creates an aspect of herself that she calls Valsharine. Valsharine takes on the form of a Drow and enters into the Underdark to gain followers among the Drow during Lolth's Silence. During this time Valsharine gains many new followers, enough to gain her the portfolio of the drow. Would this portfolio go to Shar? Would the power gained through the newfound worshipers of Valsharine be shared with Shar? In the sixth question, could Valsharine join the Drow Pantheon? In the future, let us say it turns out Lolth was slain and is forever dead. Valsharine becomes the supreme goddess of the Drow and then decides that she wants even more power. Could she then turn upon Shar? What power and sway does Shar have over Valsharine? The above is just an example, but perhaps a poor one depending on the answer to the first question.
Lord Karsus 04-09-07, 10:05 PM	-Hopes this helps a little. 1. How, why and when can a deity create an aspect? -Well, when deities merge with other deities, the dominant deity often keeps the less powerful deity as an aspect. For example, when Shevarash merged with Eikarashae, a Yuir deity, Shevarash was the only one who actually "walked away". Shevarash still assumes the form of Eikarashae from time to time, when he appears to his followers in the Yuir, since they are more familiar with Eikarashae than they are with Shevarash. Same thing with Selvetarm and the Aranea of Lost Ajuutal- he appeared to them as Zanassu. 3. How is the 'core deity' different from the aspect? -Aside from what the mortals percieving the aspect see, no, I do not believe that there are any differences. If Shevarash appears to the people of the Yuir as Eikarashae, it is still Shevarash who is appearing, in reality. 5. Can an aspect turn upon its 'core deity'? 6. Can a deific aspect break away from its 'cores pantheon' and enter into another pantheon entirely? -I do not believe so, as there is absolutely no precident.
Meldread 04-09-07, 11:59 PM	Perhaps I am understanding the concept of aspects wrong, or I was unclear - or perhaps there is simply no precedent for such a thing. What you seem to be describing are various aliases a deity goes by - I am talking about an aspect. Let me try and give another example. Take Set. He is a deific power on many different worlds. On some of those worlds he is a Greater Power, on some of those worlds he is a demigod, and on some of those worlds he has been slain. Lolth, in a sense, is in the same boat - she is a Greater Deity on Toril but not on Oerth. This would imply that the deities are really, by and large, aspects that work independently of one another. Lolth's Toril aspect has portfolios that her aspect on Oerth does not hold. Is there a uber Lolth out there, a 'core Lolth' as it were from which all of her various aspects emerge from? What if her Toril aspect meets her Oerth aspect and decides that they hate each other? Would that be possible? Is it even possible for two different aspects of the same deity to meet themselves? Let me give another example. We know Bhaal is dead on Toril, but let us say a cult of Bhaal fled Toril and setup shop on Oerth. There an aspect of Bhaal emerged and he has risen to a status of greater deity and has many portfolios. Over time this aspect of Bhaal has merged with another evil deity, with Bhaal's personality and essence dominate, and a large number of cultists decide to return to Toril. BUT WAIT! Bhaal has been resurrected on Toril and is now a demi god. What happens, then? Essentially what I need to know is this: If a deity from Faerun interlopes to another world, and then over time begins to change into a deity largely different from their Faerunian version, what happens if the aspect on the other world interlopes back to Faerun as a result of his followers returning?
The Ubbergeek 04-10-07, 07:27 AM	-Hopes this helps a little. -Well, when deities merge with other deities, the dominant deity often keeps the less powerful deity as an aspect. For example, when Shevarash merged with Eikarashae, a Yuir deity, Shevarash was the only one who actually "walked away". Shevarash still assumes the form of Eikarashae from time to time, when he appears to his followers in the Yuir, since they are more familiar with Eikarashae than they are with Shevarash. Same thing with Selvetarm and the Aranea of Lost Ajuutal- he appeared to them as Zanassu. -Aside from what the mortals percieving the aspect see, no, I do not believe that there are any differences. If Shevarash appears to the people of the Yuir as Eikarashae, it is still Shevarash who is appearing, in reality. -I do not believe so, as there is absolutely no precident. Not forgotten realms, but in the old deities and demigods, Rudra was kind of basicaly an aspect of Shiva that became a divinity in it's own right, independant.
Lord Karsus 04-10-07, 09:09 AM	Perhaps I am understanding the concept of aspects wrong, or I was unclear - or perhaps there is simply no precedent for such a thing. What you seem to be describing are various aliases a deity goes by - I am talking about an aspect. Let me try and give another example. -Gotcha. Note, though, that deities who subsume other deities do often appear as the subsumed deities, and thus, the subsumed deities become aspects of the actual deity. Take Set. He is a deific power on many different worlds. On some of those worlds he is a Greater Power, on some of those worlds he is a demigod, and on some of those worlds he has been slain. Lolth, in a sense, is in the same boat - she is a Greater Deity on Toril but not on Oerth. This would imply that the deities are really, by and large, aspects that work independently of one another. Lolth's Toril aspect has portfolios that her aspect on Oerth does not hold. Is there a uber Lolth out there, a 'core Lolth' as it were from which all of her various aspects emerge from? What if her Toril aspect meets her Oerth aspect and decides that they hate each other? Would that be possible? Is it even possible for two different aspects of the same deity to meet themselves? Let me give another example. We know Bhaal is dead on Toril, but let us say a cult of Bhaal fled Toril and setup shop on Oerth. There an aspect of Bhaal emerged and he has risen to a status of greater deity and has many portfolios. Over time this aspect of Bhaal has merged with another evil deity, with Bhaal's personality and essence dominate, and a large number of cultists decide to return to Toril. BUT WAIT! Bhaal has been resurrected on Toril and is now a demi god. What happens, then? Essentially what I need to know is this: If a deity from Faerun interlopes to another world, and then over time begins to change into a deity largely different from their Faerunian version, what happens if the aspect on the other world interlopes back to Faerun as a result of his followers returning? -The problem I see, I think, stems from the seperation of the Realms from the greater cosmology, the "Planescape Cosmology". In 2e, the Lolth of Oerth was the same exact Lolth of Toril. In 2e, the Corellon Larethian from Krynn was the same Corellon Larethian from Toril. So, if something happened to the deity in one place, it effected him/her/it everywhere else. -Now, in 3e, that idea has been scrapped, and it sure does confuses things, doesn't it? Personally, I just ignore the changes, but ignoring it isn't going to get your questions answered...
Meldread 04-10-07, 01:18 PM	What if the planet the deific aspects took residence on was within the cosmology of the Great Tree? Let's say Shevarash wants to build up a vast army to lead in an assault in the Underdark. However, he wants to do it out from under the noses of the Elven Pantheon. He opens a portal to another world within the cosmology of the Great Tree, creates an aspect of himself - giving it a new name - and tells his little followers there to be fruitful and multiply. Several centuries go by and now they number in millions. However, due to various heresies and the shifts of culture the Shevarash of this planet has changed. He is no longer the same as the Shevarash of Toril. However, let us say that the basic tenant of Shevarash remained the same - even though that aspect of him is now largely different (as in more powerful - more portfolios) - his followers still remember Toril and wish to return to invade the Underdark. They return in massive numbers to do what they were created to do - to invade the Underdark and wipe out the Drow completely. This in turn, would bring the aspect of Shevarash that was located on that planet to Toril where he would meet up with the aspect that created him. Let's say that this aspect of Shevarash has the portfolios of hatred of the drow, crusades, vengeance, the sun, law, justice and war. He lost the portfolio of loss and the Shevarash of Toril has the same portfolios as he does currently. What happens when these two aspects of Shevarash meet each other? Would the Shevarash on Toril transform just as his aspect on the other planet did, or would they remain separate beings? What happens if his transformation into a deity of war brings him into conflict with Corellon? Wouldn't that aspect of Shevarash effectively be in another Pantheon entirely?
Lord Karsus 04-10-07, 02:37 PM	-Well, Shevarash is a bad example, since he exists only in Realmspace! ;) -But, I know what you mean. Again, this is one of the horrible problems that the new 3e "Seperate but Equal" cosmology created. In the past, there was only one deity, and that was that. As to your question, I really can't answer very well. Maybe Shemeska or Rip, who have a high Knowledge: The Planes, can help a little more.
Mirtek 04-10-07, 06:18 PM	Let's say Shevarash wants to build up a vast army to lead in an assault in the Underdark. However, he wants to do it out from under the noses of the Elven Pantheon. He opens a portal to another world within the cosmology of the Great Tree, creates an aspect of himself - giving it a new name - and tells his little followers there to be fruitful and multiply. It would not be a new deity, it would just be him using a different name on a different planet and he would have to make sure that none of the other Seldarine are looking his way whenever he takes a quick look at the new world. He would not create a new entity, he would still be the single entity sitting in divine realm, only now with two monitors (one showing Toril, the other showing the new world) instead of one. At least that's mine oppinion.
Meldread 04-10-07, 07:12 PM	Mirtek- The problem is that it just doesn't seem possible that it could work that way in the old OR new cosmology. It's not really a question of cosmology it is a question of the nature of deities themselves. If a deity is multispheric, meaning that they exist on more than one planet, then the likelihood of them somehow changing increases. Take a look at the past of Faerun. Look at all the deities that existed at one time or another, and all of the deities that have merged, died off, been reborn or otherwise changed. Certainly, there are other planets where similar events have taken place - and certainly at least ONE deity that is currently on Toril has been through such a metamorphose on another planet. It doesn't really make much sense (at least to me) if say - you destroy Set's aspect on Toril that he'd die off in other places. It seems to me that what happens on Toril, stays on Toril, and what happens elsewhere stays there as well. The paradoxical problem that arises is when a multispheric deity, such as Set has followers that arrive on a planet that currently already has a version of Set. What happens to the two versions of Set? If all deities are universal - meaning that they are effected by what happens on different planets - then this creates a Pandora's Box of problems. Let's say Set exists on sixty different planets. On one of those planets he completely wipes out the other members of his Pantheon and ultimately becomes the supreme deity of that planet. There are other deities, but they forge into a tight pantheon all serving Set. Do the actions on that planet effect the Horus-Re of Toril, who was slain on the other planet? Is Horus-Re even aware that he was slain on the other planet? If the Set from that planet interlopes to Toril (keeping in mind that he is vastly more powerful than the version of Set currently on Toril, as well as having many more portfolios) what would happen to the Set that is native to Toril? Will he say, "Oh look! It's me!" Then willingly merge into the more powerful version of himself? Perhaps, the version of Set from the other planet is Lawful Good (some crazy heresy that swept the people changed him) and therefore the Set of Toril would be opposed to such - bringing them into direct conflict. Also, what of deities who have recently interloped? Do they arrive with their full divine rank or do they have to earn it according to the rules for deities on that planet? On Toril worshipers matter, but they might not matter on the planet the deity is originally from. Even under the old cosmology this perception of the deities being linked together is flawed. The reason for this is for the simple fact that any deity could easily gain a divine rank of 21+ by simply going to as many planets as possible and gaining worshipers. A few thousand worshipers here, a few thousand worshipers there, a weak deity over there to kill and steal portfolios from... etc. It just doesn't make logical sense. I have a feeling I am going to have to create a set of universal rules that apply to all deities, or at least those who exist in the cosmology of Toril.
Vasyek 04-10-07, 10:05 PM	I am curious as to how Deific Aspects work, and here are my main questions. 1. How, why and when can a deity create an aspect? 2. What exactly does an aspect do that the deity cannot? 3. How is the 'core deity' different from the aspect? 4. Can an aspect expand its power, eventually collecting portfolios that the original deity did not possess? 5. Can an aspect turn upon its 'core deity'? 6. Can a deific aspect break away from its 'cores pantheon' and enter into another pantheon entirely? [Note: this is more my interpretation of things than any official edict, for whatever either of them's worth.] Answering in no particular order save that of perceived significance and subsequent extension, I would say that an aspect, as you employ the term, differs from the core deity in that it is not an entity unto itself but rather an extension of its underlying source, which would be the core deity. Mirtek called these aspect monitors through which the source may peer, whereas I would consider them to be closer to a lens. The aspect affords the core deity a new outlet for its divine perceptions, but more importantly new opportunity; as a lens, the aspect would serve as in the latter capacity for its core to project and, ideally, magnify itself within the area in which the aspect functions. The aspect doesn't really do anything that the core deity itself couldn't do, but it can do the same things with lesser risk and investment being involved and therein lies the incentive. There are no strict qualifications of which I am aware for a deity to form aspects in new worlds, but it's relatively safe to say that the deity in question must be secure and established in at least one world before it can afford the risk and distraction that insinuating its presence in new worlds would entail. I would further presume some minimum of divine power required to successfully establish the presence of an aspect in the desired area, though it is to some degree amenable to circumstance. Demigods, for instance, would be primarily limited to one world in their manifestation, and lesser gods would generally be capable of such a feat only when they have some sort of backing in doing so, often in the form of superiors within their pantheon, or if the world in question has a conceptual void that they are imminently poised to fill. As mentioned, the propagation of aspects is safer than the core divinity attempting to force itself into a given world, and this is because an aspect is not vital to the core; as any harm to the aspect is not directly assumed by the core being. Naturally, there are exceptions to this, such as what happened to Tyche. Even ignoring the exceptions in which the aspect's misfortune is echoed upon the core, however, the cultivation of numerous aspects isn't an entirely risk-free proposition: it's a drain on the core deity's resources, a distraction from present concerns, and an opportunity to attract all the wrong kinds of attention from the deities established on the worlds in which the aspect seeks to grow. There is, to address the last three possibilities, even the chance of the aspect becoming estranged from the core by the nature or magnitude of its growth. Generally speaking, I would not consider an aspect to have a will distinct from the core even when it acquires new portfolios or enjoys more success than other aspects. Certain idiosyncrasies in behavior or perspective may arise, though these are largely formative in nature and thus easily reconcilable to the core, barring truly dramatic growth on the part of the aspect. But for whatever reason, an aspect can become distinct from the core in light of its conceptually derivative nature; in some cases the core may actually desire this to occur, though in most cases it is likely that it was simply unable to prevent this from happening. This is a dead loss for the core deity unless the estranged aspect is yet amenable to collaboration, and even then the core deity is likely to wish to subsume the divergent self to resume its agenda upon that world. The former aspect may or may not crave to be reunited with the core, depending on the circumstances under which it separated, but it's far from a safe assumption for the core deity to make. It should be mentioned, however, that aspects winning autonomy is bound to be a rare occurrence; not necessarily as rare as deities would like, as I could see the interference of another deity as a viable cause for the estrangement, but still quite rare. ...During this time Valsharine gains many new followers, enough to gain her the portfolio of the drow. Would this portfolio go to Shar? Would the power gained through the newfound worshipers of Valsharine be shared with Shar? Assuming that this aspect is formed within Toril and thus subject to the Torilian particulars of Lolth's silence (which, of course, is further assuming that it even applied to any of the other worlds in which Lolth is present), the portfolio might tentatively fall under Shar's sway. Lolth would have plenty to say about that, however, and unless Shar was able to subvert the drow so thoroughly over the relatively brief period of Lolth's silence that her newfound influence significantly exceeds the influence over the drow that Lolth has established for herself over the millennia, then the inevitable conflict to ensue will almost certainly lead to her abandoning the portfolio to avoid useless entrenchment in that conflict. And that's entertaining the notion that a god can form separate aspects of this sort between pantheons rather than between worlds, which I doubt is viable to begin with. I'd venture that a god can form an aspect on a world as it wishes, but within that world's pantheonic subdivisions, it's stuck with that one aspect to flourish or falter amid the boundaries established. That is to say, this Valsharine would still be Shar, with no accompanying distinction whatsoever beyond the nominal variety, and all of the risks and opportunities would apply equally between them. One possible way around that would be for Shar to fragment herself to create Valsharine, which, while functionally similar to the sort of aspect creation I've been describing, would occur at a direct and measurable cost to the existing Shar. Arguably even to the point of wholly compromising the general appeal of aspect creation in the first place. Even if Valsharine were to fail and be destroyed for her troubles, it still wouldn't really bother the existing Shar beyond the effort wasted in creating her in the first place, but therein lies the clincher... Even sparing only enough to make Valsharine a demigod would require a proportionate loss of power for Shar, which she could hardly count on her enemies and rivals overlooking, and such a minimal dispersal of her own energies would hardly ensure her success in usurping Lolth's portfolio. But if, against all odds, Valsharine succeeded and Shar survived this rather inadvisable feat, there is a chance that Valsharine could shake off the existing Shar's hold. This depends on the circumstances, though: Valsharine would have a greater chance of becoming wholly independent if the fruits of her labor had left her more powerful than the Shar made her, but depending on how Shar went about making her, even then it's a far from certain proposition. On a basic level, Valsharine would just be a congealed emanation of Shar's energies, and therefore may possess an intrinsic urge to reunite with the source from which she originated. The power she gains could foreseeably undermine this instinct, but contingencies that Shar has woven into the core of Valsharine's being could compensate for this in one way or another. Perhaps the energy that formed Valsharine has been designed to be an irreplaceable foundation of being, such that she either knows this and really has no choice but to submit to the original or is kept unaware and launches her offensive against Shar only to find her vital constituent dissolve before the surprise can even register. This is, after all, a being that Shar had absolute power over in the beginning, and thus absolute discretion as to the terms of its existence. A hold like that is possible to override, but who can even begin to say what is required for the being to go about doing so. Also, what of deities who have recently interloped? Do they arrive with their full divine rank or do they have to earn it according to the rules for deities on that planet? On Toril worshipers matter, but they might not matter on the planet the deity is originally from. Interlopers can't help the nature of divine power on the newfound world or its existing balance of power in terms of resident gods and niches filled. In almost all cases, the interloper will not arrive with full access to the core deity's power and will have to somehow work their way back up even if they don't find themselves faced with unfamiliar requirements such as mortal worship and so forth. The more powerful the interloping god, presumably the greater its chances of starting out as anything but a complete nobody, but unless there's a truly staggering void for the interloper to fill, it's not going to be a simple matter for it to establish itself as firmly as it has been established on another world. Even under the old cosmology this perception of the deities being linked together is flawed. The reason for this is for the simple fact that any deity could easily gain a divine rank of 21+ by simply going to as many planets as possible and gaining worshipers. Not easily, as acquisition of worshipers is not the standard for ascent past greater godhood. As for the amassing of a slew of portfolios from random worlds in which the god has a presence, the only case in which I could see that having a decisive effect upon the central essence of the being is when that entire world has been dominated and subsumed by the god. Anything less and the prize that that world represents for the core deity and other gods in general is essentially up for grabs; and even if the aforementioned conditions are met, it's not necessarily going to be an overall increase in direct proportion to what the god's aspect managed to reap from that world. Dominating an entire world is, in any case, far from a simple proposition even assuming that the world's resident gods aren't up to the task of preventing this, as rival multispheric gods will directly or indirectly strive to keep it from happening as well. If the interloper's rivals lack a presence within that world, the aforementioned complications arise should they wish manifest in direct opposition, but the mitigating factor to this would be the likelihood that the imperiled gods of that world would be amenable to the rivals' encroachment under these circumstances and thus prone to facilitate their arrival/growth upon that world in light of the other god's progression. Even if the interloper who currently enjoys a measure of ascendance upon that world is ultimately able to prevent this, it is to no great cost to their multi-spheric rivals in most cases, and further enables the native gods to renew their footholds while the interloper is distracted. That's not even getting into the ways opposed deities could harass and imperil the interloper's other aspects or core divinity across other worlds/the planes if they were sufficiently roused by the prospect of the interloper's perch on that one world resulting in an appreciable increase in overall power.
Mirtek 04-11-07, 01:56 PM	The problem is that it just doesn't seem possible that it could work that way in the old OR new cosmology. It's not really a question of cosmology it is a question of the nature of deities themselves. In the old cosmology it would work exactly like this in any case. In the new cosmology it would work like this because the second world is still within realmspace. If the new world would be outside realmspace that might create a new "clone deity" according to the new universe rules, but not within the same sphere. If a deity is multispheric, meaning that they exist on more than one planet, then the likelihood of them somehow changing increases. Take a look at the past of Faerun. Look at all the deities that existed at one time or another, and all of the deities that have merged, died off, been reborn or otherwise changed. Such a change either means: a) The deity simply changing how she acts on this specific world -> in this case it has no impact on how she acts on other worlds b) A real change to the deity herself -> in this case she will change on all worlds where she's worshipped. --> both answers are for the old D&D multiverse cosmology It doesn't really make much sense (at least to me) if say - you destroy Set's aspect on Toril that he'd die off in other places. It seems to me that what happens on Toril, stays on Toril, and what happens elsewhere stays there as well. Destroying Set's aspect on Toril does nothing to the real Set. He's still sitting in his divine realm, watching his "multiple monitors" showing all "his" worlds and one single monitor just went black. You have merely severed on of his multiple divine connections, but not touched the true Set. You can't touch the true Set on Toril, because Set never ever enters Toril. Set is always on the planes, like other deities he is forbidden to enter Toril. --> Once again answered for the old multiverse cosmology The paradoxical problem that arises is when a multispheric deity, such as Set has followers that arrive on a planet that currently already has a version of Set. What happens to the two versions of Set? If all deities are universal - meaning that they are effected by what happens on different planets - then this creates a Pandora's Box of problems. In the old cosmology there were no "versions of Set", it was the one and only Set, watching and affecting multiple worlds at once from his planar divine realm. Let's say Set exists on sixty different planets. On one of those planets he completely wipes out the other members of his Pantheon and ultimately becomes the supreme deity of that planet. He either slays them on the planes, then they are dead on all worlds or he has merely somehow managed to sever their divine connection to this particular world. In this case they're still safe and sound in their planar realms and still access all other worlds together with Set. They know that their monitor to this single world has been turned off and might even take the revenge for this slight on completly different worlds. --> old multiverse again Do the actions on that planet effect the Horus-Re of Toril, who was slain on the other planet? Is Horus-Re even aware that he was slain on the other planet? Since Horus never was on this other planet (always being on the planes), he was not slain there. Merely his connecting to this particular world has been cut off. If someone from this world left his world and went to the planes and killed Horus there, then Horus would be gone on each and every other world too. --> and again answered from the old multiverse point of view If the Set from that planet interlopes to Toril (keeping in mind that he is vastly more powerful than the version of Set currently on Toril, as well as having many more portfolios) what would happen to the Set that is native to Toril? That's a question for the new 3.xe cosmology to handle. In the old cosmology there never were two different Sets.
Meldread 04-11-07, 04:35 PM	I encourage everyone to pick up Power of Faerun and read the section entitled "Keep the Faith". The bit about heresies really has changed the way I view the deities as a whole. Power of Faerun hints at the fact that the deities are not immutable beings, that they are in fact mutable and can be changed based on the belief of their worshipers. For example here is a paragraph from page 48: Even in a world wrapped in the Weave, religion and the nature of the divine remain enigmas to the mortal world. Faerunian philosophers are uncertain as to why the actions of a small number of mortals assume great significance in the epic conflicts of the gods and why the actions of a large number of other mortals do not. Many religious myths seem to reflect the history of the mortal world, yet the cause and effect between the two is often unclear. For example, did the betrayal of Corellon by Araushnee (Lolth) and her subsequent banishment to the Abyss trigger the descent of the drow, or did the internecine battles of the Fair Folk that resulted in the descent trigger a similar transformation among the Seldarine? The above along with other, more direct and specific statements clearly indicate that mortal events influence divine beings. A deity who exists on more than one world is virtually ensuring that it becomes changed, modified or interpreted in a different way. A deity that may be worshiped today, may have been vastly different a thousand years ago. Worlds are not static places. Events are constantly happening and changes in religious doctrine is likely very common. Heretical cults rise to take prominence over other sects within the same faith. Just like in the real world, no matter what religion you look at a religion that is practiced today was very different three hundred years ago. They may share the same root beliefs but the interpretations and application of beliefs are different - and religion in Faerun is likely very much the same. In fact, I'd wager it is even worse and changes even more drastically. Take a deity who has a presence on multiple worlds like Set, and you effectively have multiple versions of Set. I don't think it really matters how it was in the old cosmology, it just doesn't work when put in practical application. I'm working on some definitive guidelines that deities must follow and I'll post them here when they are complete. Feedback will be necessary.
Gray Richardson 04-12-07, 01:24 AM	Aliases, Aspects and Fragments occur when a deity is worshiped by different populations. This fragmentation of identity is, I suspect in most cases, generated externally by the worshipers and not usually internally from the god. I note at least 3 different levels of fragmentation that should be considered: 1) Persona, name, alias: A god may simply answer prayers to different groups of worshipers by appearing in different forms, answering to different names, and adopting different demeanors and regalia. This is not unlike acting or role-playing. 2) Aspect: The god has a genuine split-personality or alternate identity. The god appears to one group of people one way, and a different group of people another way, the identities are semi-autonomous and the personalities quite distinct from each other. This may involve having dedicated avatars in the guise of each of the aspects. 3) Fragment: The aspect splits off into a separate, distinct entity. It becomes independent and is worshiped as a separate and distinct god in its own right. Causes of fragmentation: 1) Populations of worshipers move apart and become isolated from each other. Conceptions of the god begin to evolve and diverge so that each group sees the god in a different way from the other group. For instance, in the Moonshaes they came to worship Chauntea as the Earthmother, a nature goddess in her more primal ancient form. Or, more accurately I would suggest that in the Moonshaes, an isolated island culture, they maintained their worship of Chauntea close to how she was conceived millenia ago by more primitive, tribal humans, and that the Chauntea of the mainlands is the one who has evolved into a more agrarian, civilized nature goddess. 2) Heresies and schisms within the church can cause fragmentation as different sects or philosophies evolve that have a powerful interpretation of the god that differs from the orthodox view. 3) When the Sarrurkh kept creating new scaly folk races, the World Serpent kept fragmenting off new gods as each new race had different religious needs and needed a god that looked like themselves. 4) Mythic event: such as when Tyche split into Beshaba and Tymora. Or when Mystryl was created by ripping the heart of magic out of Selune and hurling it at Shar. Any mythic event, cataclysm or ritual could spawn a fragment. Such fragments may be allied or opposed to the god they spun off from. In some cases the fragment is a nemesis, one's polar opposite. These various levels of fragmentation are fairly fluid and it is not always easy to know for sure whether a god is just "playing a role" doffing and donning personas like masks, or if they have slipped past that into the split-personality, alternate identity phase. And it may not be clear at what point exactly the god has fragmented into two separate entities. They seem to work backwards sometimes too. Gods can reabsorb fragments, reintegrate aspects, and abandon personas and aliases as well. But I would suggest that in most cases this is not so much of a choice by the deity so much as imposed on the god by the belief, expectations, mythology and liturgy of his various worshipers.
Meldread 04-12-07, 02:06 PM	Gray thanks for your post. Your response sums up what I was attempting to accomplish with the guidelines I was trying to create. The main difference seems to be in the fact that my version was more complex and bumbling, and yours is more simple and elegant. Thanks, I'll be going with that. Basically, here is what I am contemplating. There is an area of the Underdark called the Netherese Caverns that is basically untouched by cannon sources. In the Caverns is a place called Philock, which according to Lost Empires, was a place where Netherese Refugees fled after the fall of Netheril. So using this information I am thinking about constructing something, giving the place history and explaining why such a place seems to basically have no impact or effect on the world. It began as a Netherese Enclave for a powerful Archwizard who wanted to conduct his research away from prying eyes. After Netherils fall he went about rounding up Netherese Arcanists, refugees and as much arcane lore from the fallen Empire as he possibly could. Philock had portals (which have since become mostly malfunctioned) connecting to almost any place you can imagine in Faerun and beyond. This Archmage was really knowledgeable about traveling across vast distances of time and space, and even managed to discover a way to travel between planets through portals. He created one such portal to a planet that was mostly uninhabited due to some cataclysmic event that befell a previous civilization that existed on the planet. He then began bringing refugees and individuals from all across Toril to this planet where they worked to push back the hostile native beasts and what not... Naturally, all of these people brought their religion with them. So I was faced with a problem of what would happen. I remembered our discussion in the Garagos thread about the Dawn Cataclysm being (more or less) a metaphor for the merging of the many human pantheons. Naturally, if the gods existed on this new world a similar event would take place. This forced me to think of different deific aspects, like Teylas (aspect of Akadi) and Etugen (aspect of Grumbar) who are worshiped by the Horde of the Endless Wastes. Heresies would be common since church doctrine and dogma were not easily ported over. Over time this would lead to fragmentation, and the fact that all of the races were Humanoid and eventually procreated with one another would have lead to deific merging. Basically it's been almost or a little over 1,600 years since the fall of Netheril and due to the various events that took place on the planet the deities all ended up merging into one uberdeity... not unlike the concept of the Adama in Durpar. This uberdeity of great power was so far removed from mortal conception (not unlike Lord Ao) that it had to create aspects of itself for worship. These aspects form into a tight pantheon which the people worship, and acknowledge that they are but a small aspect of the true gods essence. Eventually due to a number of factors the Netherese Archmage and his Arcanists fell, mostly as a result of the same factors that was causing the decline of the empire on Toril. This in turn was a period of turmoil, chaos, and reduced the people of the world to basic needs for survival... eventually to emerge as a Imperialistic Fascist Theocracy, united under their religion and strong sense of honor combined with the knowledge of the fallen civilization that came before their arrival and the Netherese knowledge brought to their world... gave rise to an Empire that not only spanned that world but two others. The religion has evolved into a us vs them mentality. They have a dualistic view of the cosmos in which their uberdeity is threatened by another more powerful uberdeity. This other uberdeity is evil (in their eyes) and has agents on many worlds - these agents are aspects of it and are other gods. This uberdeity uses this to have this empire invade worlds so it can expand its own power - eating lesser deities like snacks. This empire eventually finds a way to reactivate the portal to Toril and are now coming... in massive force. I would imagine that this would play out something like the Rift War Saga by Raymond E. Feist. They are coming with the IIA in mind (Invasion, Indoctrination, Assimilation), believing that they are saving the people of these worlds from their evil gods, and that their way of life is vastly superior to those on other worlds. All of the above lead to a large number of problems, but mainly the core of the uberdeity was created as a result of aspects of Toril deities fragmenting off, then merging together... only to return and face off against their originals. It seems like this idea could be fun as players battle against what seem to be impossible odds, forging unlikely alliances, and ending up hanging out with strange bedfellows, all in an effort to push back a common enemy that seems to have nearly unlimited power and resources. They would have to uncover the secrets of the Empire, and realize that they can't be defeated through brute strength, requiring instead an insane amount of guile, intrigue and plotting. The general undertone should be that no one is safe from the Red Wizards of Thay, to the Drow of the Underdark, to Cormyr and Shadowdale itself.