Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Perun 02-27-08, 04:56 PM	Over on the FR General forum, in the Ask the designers thread, Richard Baker said: And, before anyone gets on me--most of our upcoming pantheon development leaves the original FR deities in place. This got me thinking... the 1987 FR Campaign Set has 34 human deities listed: Auril, Azuth, Bane, Beshaba, Bhaal, Chauntea, Deneir, Eldath, Gond, Helm, Ilmater, Lathander, Leira, Lliira, Loviatar, Malar, Mask, Mielikki, Milil, Myrkul, Mystra, Oghma, Selune, Shar, Silvanus, Sune, Talona, Talos, Tempus, Torm, Tymora, Tyr, Umberlee, Waukeen; plus the four elemental lords (Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, Kossuth)*. We know that 3 of those were killed during or after the Time of Troubles (Bhaal, Leira, Myrkul). Bane, too, was killed, but came back in 1372, destroying Iyachtu Xvim in the process. Kelemvor, of course, ascended, at the end of ToT. Tyr kills Helm in 1384, and Mystra dies in 1385. Savras is destroyed aong with Dweomerheart. We know Cyric is imprisoned for 1,000 years, and Azuth and Velsharoon are sent to the Astral Plane. We don't know whether they're still present in the game. Siamorphe is one of the key figures in the whole Helm/Tyr debacle, so we can assume she's still in the game (but, presumably demoted to the mentioned "saint"/hero-deity role). So, that leaves us with: Auril, Bane, Beshaba, Chauntea, Deneir, Eldath, Gond, Ilmater, Kelemvor, Lathander, Lliira, Loviatar, Malar, Mask, Mielikki, Milil, Oghma, Selune, Shar, Silvanus, Sune, Talona, Talos, Tempus, Torm, Tymora, Tyr, Umberlee, Waukeen, with the questionable presence of Azuth and Cyric. That's 29, possibly 31 deities, or 35 with the elemental lords. Plus Siamorphe. Lathander might be changed in some way (since, presumably, the Deliverance -- whatever it was -- happened). And we... well, I can only hope that Leira somehow managed to come back from the dead :p I'm also assuming Tiamat is in, but I'm not so certain about Bahamut (we know he will be in core D&D, but in the Realms there might be a bit too much philosophy (if not direct portfolio) overlap with Torm). Of course, all this is just semi-wild speculation on my part, since we only have confirmed presence of a couple of deities, and Richard Baker said most, meaning "not all". Thoughts? * Incidentally, all of those deities were described in the 2e Faiths and Avatars, with the addition of Amaunator, Ao, Cyric, Ibrandul, Iyachtu Xvim, Kelemvor, Moander, and Shaundakul.
Todesherr 02-27-08, 09:48 PM	Over on the FR General forum, in the Ask the designers thread, Richard Baker said: This got me thinking... the 1987 FR Campaign Set has 34 human deities listed: Auril, Azuth, Bane, Beshaba, Bhaal, Chauntea, Deneir, Eldath, Gond, Helm, Ilmater, Lathander, Leira, Lliira, Loviatar, Malar, Mask, Mielikki, Milil, Myrkul, Mystra, Oghma, Selune, Shar, Silvanus, Sune, Talona, Talos, Tempus, Torm, Tymora, Tyr, Umberlee, Waukeen; plus the four elemental lords (Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, Kossuth)*. We know that 3 of those were killed during or after the Time of Troubles (Bhaal, Leira, Myrkul). Bane, too, was killed, but came back in 1372, destroying Iyachtu Xvim in the process. Kelemvor, of course, ascended, at the end of ToT. Tyr kills Helm in 1384, and Mystra dies in 1385. Savras is destroyed aong with Dweomerheart. We know Cyric is imprisoned for 1,000 years, and Azuth and Velsharoon are sent to the Astral Plane. We don't know whether they're still present in the game. Siamorphe is one of the key figures in the whole Helm/Tyr debacle, so we can assume she's still in the game (but, presumably demoted to the mentioned "saint"/hero-deity role). So, that leaves us with: Auril, Bane, Beshaba, Chauntea, Deneir, Eldath, Gond, Ilmater, Kelemvor, Lathander, Lliira, Loviatar, Malar, Mask, Mielikki, Milil, Oghma, Selune, Shar, Silvanus, Sune, Talona, Talos, Tempus, Torm, Tymora, Tyr, Umberlee, Waukeen, with the questionable presence of Azuth and Cyric. That's 29, possibly 31 deities, or 35 with the elemental lords. Plus Siamorphe. Lathander might be changed in some way (since, presumably, the Deliverance -- whatever it was -- happened). And we... well, I can only hope that Leira somehow managed to come back from the dead :p I'm also assuming Tiamat is in, but I'm not so certain about Bahamut (we know he will be in core D&D, but in the Realms there might be a bit too much philosophy (if not direct portfolio) overlap with Torm). Of course, all this is just semi-wild speculation on my part, since we only have confirmed presence of a couple of deities, and Richard Baker said most, meaning "not all". Thoughts? * Incidentally, all of those deities were described in the 2e Faiths and Avatars, with the addition of Amaunator, Ao, Cyric, Ibrandul, Iyachtu Xvim, Kelemvor, Moander, and Shaundakul. Tyr is out, Torm is in! Long Live Torm!
sfdragon 02-27-08, 10:43 PM	bad news for you. he said original FR deities which means: Talos Selune that netherese god of war Shar Amuanator ? Jergal chuantea the ones i cant remember now unless he meant the 2e FR deities ..... which more or less you'd be right
Todesherr 02-27-08, 11:12 PM	bad news for you. he said original FR deities which means: Talos Selune that netherese god of war Shar Amuanator ? Jergal chuantea the ones i cant remember now unless he meant the 2e FR deities ..... which more or less you'd be right And Torm, and Torm!!!!!!
Kiioro 02-27-08, 11:15 PM	Breathe...
sfdragon 02-28-08, 01:22 AM	And Torm, and Torm!!!!!! :pbbbtt: no, he said original FR deities, Torm was not one of them, but will be retained. but as i said, unless he meant the 2e group.......
Perun 02-28-08, 02:23 AM	bad news for you. Why bad news? I'm pretty much ambivalent which deities will be in the 4e FR. Deities, while sometimes interesting to read about, are pretty much background material. he said original FR deities I thought the 1987 boxed set was the original FR release, not counting the Dragon magazine articles (which I don't have access to). I assumed he was talking about the deities from that set. which means: Talos Selune that netherese god of war Shar Amuanator ? Jergal chuantea the ones i cant remember Apparently, our interpretation of "original" is different in this case :) You're referring to deities that could historically (from the Realmsian point of view) be considered original, while I'm referring to deities described in the original FR accessory. The deities you list above are, IIRC, all from the Netherese pantheon, except some were known under different names (Talos was Kozah, the god of war was Targus (also known as Garagos), and Chauntea was known as Jannath). The pantheon also included Moander, Mystryl, and Tyche. There were other (human) pantheons in the past (as discussed in Faiths and Pantheons, p. 4), but most merged with the Faerunian pantheon (the notable exception -- at least for now -- being the Mulhorandi pantheon). But we don't know what the original (i.e. the first) (human) FR pantheon was. There were human realms before Netheril, and they worshipped deities different from the ones you listed above (the F&P mentiones Jhaamdathan pantheon, which included thenow-slumbering Auppenser, for example). now unless he meant the 2e FR deities ..... which more or less you'd be right A&D 2e was published in 1989, meaning two years after the original 1e FR accessory (and if I'm not mistaken the first 2e FR product was the Forgotten Realms Adventures hardback in 1990). Regards.
sfdragon 02-28-08, 04:58 AM	bad as in how you look at it. afaic, neither. and you could be right it could be the box set, and asfaik, the netherese pantheon was the first. but then my first encounter with the realms was the pc game Baldur's Gate. in which lathander, Helm, Ilmater, Moradin, Cyric, Bhaal, tempus were the only ones i knew of, wasnt till later when i bought the a&dd faiths and avatar, and the demihuman deities.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 06:37 AM	-Bahamut is probably 'in' as well. Just a guess, based on circumstantial evidence, but...
Todesherr 02-28-08, 07:46 AM	And Torm, and Torm!!!!!!!!!!!:)
SteelGeneral 02-28-08, 07:50 AM	Yeaaaaaah...TORM!! :D
Perun 02-28-08, 08:07 AM	-Bahamut is probably 'in' as well. Just a guess, based on circumstantial evidence, but... Yes, I expect he's in (although I can see how I might have sounded differently in the OP)... even though I woudn't mind him being absent. Like I said earlier, I find him thematically a bit too close to Torm, even though their portfolios have nothing in common (Bahamut has good dragons, wind, and wisdom; Torm has duty, loyalty, obedience, and paladins). With the reduction in the number of deities, I wouldn't mind seeing Bahamut become an aspect of Torm (or vice versa), but I'm probably in minority on that one. Regards.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 01:15 PM	Bahamut is in 4E, and he's a bit more cosmopolitan than he was in previous edition. Like every other deity, he's not very "racial". He's a dragon god, yes, but he isn't all about dragons--he's going to be more of a general god of honor and justice, and takes the form of other races besides dragons (this was all mentioned in Worlds and Monsters). I don't know if he'll be in the 4E Realms, but at this point it seems likely.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 04:46 PM	I don't know if he'll be in the 4E Realms, but at this point it seems likely. -I don't think they'd erase him when they just recently (Dragons of Faerūn) reintroduced him, after a prolonged absence.
SmartPaladin 02-28-08, 06:37 PM	Hoar... Hoar... :weep: He's going to end up being a stupid saint, to some stupid Deity who's just going to suck him dry and throw away his worn empty husk... Yes, I'm looking at you Shar, and don't think I don't see you lurking back there ether Tiamat! The only thing saving him from Tyr is Torm, and that's if Torm even lets him in. Which would be cool. Doubtful though... So then there's Kelemvor, not to painful a overlap... Could be fun. *sighs* I just wanna see Hoar kick, scratch, bite and fight his way back up the ladder. I wanna see Hoar the way he should be. A Grim, brooding figure, with a slight smirk, like he's trying not to laugh at the most beautiful, fitting irony the world has ever, and will ever know. As a deity of Poetic Justice, they should make a point to show his warped sense of humor. Because someone who that revengeful minded, while also loving irony, cannot be the most stable of men, er, gods.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 06:50 PM	Hoar... Hoar... :weep: -While there is no doubt that Hoar is going to be reduced in stature, who he'll end up serving should be interesting. I'd like to see him in the role of a sort of 'Deivine Mercenary', as his portfolio mixes with so many other divinities.
Mr. Wilson 02-29-08, 12:40 AM	Hopefully Assuran, continues to maintain his status my most favored deity. I've steeled myself to the fact he's going to be reduced to demi-god walking Toril. Now I can only hope he doesn't get sucked dry by Shar. My real hope is that he becomes the divine servent of Beshaba. The bringer of bad luck/poetic justice.
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 02:08 AM	The Mulhorandi pantheon is pretty much almost certainly gone completely. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=941052 I think Bane, Corellon, Bahamut, and the other crossover gods will remain. So, how many gods do we need demoted or killed til we have 30?
Perun 02-29-08, 02:12 AM	Don't know how important it actually is (and is probably old news by now), but Xanth, one of the EN World (www.enworld.org) moderators posted images of character sheets for the sample D&DE characters here (http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/4eCharacterSheets), and paladin and cleric are listed as worshippers of the FR deities -- Tymora and Amaunator (!). Neither were mentioned before as becoming the core D&D deities, so take it with a grain of salt, but perhaps (just perhaps) we're seeing the result of Lathander's Deliverance (and my aasimar claric of the Risen Sun heresy will be really happy about it :D). Also, while paladin is listed as Good, the cleric is Unaligned.
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 02:13 AM	The Risen Sun is evil and must die!
sfdragon 02-29-08, 04:37 AM	The Risen Sun is evil and must die! and thus the dawn sun has risen to its apex, and the noon day sun has returned, and brought Amuanator to his former self and glory. all you worshipers of lathander, convert before its to late and you lie amongst the faithless in the wall of the eternally doomed, with the punishment of listening to Deekin sing for all eternity
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 04:41 AM	Rise if you will, Amaunator, we'll just have to make your reign the shortest in divine history. ;-)
Zanan 02-29-08, 09:39 AM	The Risen Sun is evil and must die! It does ... every evening anew.
SmartPaladin 02-29-08, 10:59 AM	Hopefully Assuran, continues to maintain his status my most favored deity. I've steeled myself to the fact he's going to be reduced to demi-god walking Toril. Now I can only hope he doesn't get sucked dry by Shar. My real hope is that he becomes the divine servent of Beshaba. The bringer of bad luck/poetic justice. I can handle him with Beshaba, seeing as how I wouldn't really call her evil. Just like I wouldn't call Tymora good. Luck is luck. Which is probably why I'd have liked their "true" self. Granted, out of all of the deities who are "evil", I wouldn't Loviatar evil ether. Go figure. I'd still wanna see Assuran/Hoar run around free, so I could handle him as a Divine Mercenary alot better. It'd be one way to gain power, and it would also ensure that no one try and dominate him, if he proves his usefulness to enough of the more "powerful" gods. That's alot of muscle to have coming down on your head if you try anything.
Todesherr 02-29-08, 11:11 AM	Amauntor an official god now...wow...
Lord Karsus 02-29-08, 12:47 PM	-There's no reason to believe that Lathander will be reborn. Remember, people, only the church and cloister at Elversuit believed in the Risen Sun. Everyone else, the entire clergy of Lathander, labeled it a heresy. Are we going to believe a few wackos, or the mainstream church?
Perun 02-29-08, 01:13 PM	-There's no reason to believe that Lathander will be reborn. Remember, people, only the church and cloister at Elversuit believed in the Risen Sun. Everyone else, the entire clergy of Lathander, labeled it a heresy. Are we going to believe a few wackos, or the mainstream church? Why, the wackos, of course :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-29-08, 02:02 PM	In truth, I was never fond of the close association of Lathander with Amauntor (which is, I recall, something that was added recently for 3E).
Lord Karsus 02-29-08, 04:34 PM	Why, the wackos, of course :) -Listen to the minority? Guess that's the modus operandi, lately.
Kenzuki 03-01-08, 07:03 PM	In truth, I was never fond of the close association of Lathander with Amauntor (which is, I recall, something that was added recently for 3E). Actually they associated Lathander with Amaunator in the Faiths and Avatars book which was 2nd edition. Karsus: To use a real life analogy here. Christianity started out as a sect of Judaism which over the years has grown to become the world's largest religion.
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 07:53 PM	If Amaunator returns, it's going to be awkward for my campaigns since I've been using the Risen Sun quite extensively. Here's my version. Risen Sun Heresy (The Supreme Faith, The Holy Universal Church, The Light of the Supreme God) Portfolio: See Lathander Alignment: Lawful Neutral Members: Lathander Allies: (claimed) Chauntaea, Garagos, Selune, Jergal (Kelemvor), Shar Enemies: All Interloper Gods, Mystra Symbol: A Golden Solar Disc Domains: Law, Nobility Worshipers Alignment: NG, LG, LN, N, LE, NE The Risen Sun Heresy is something of a black eye on the whole of the Lathander faith as it began in Sembia and since has started spreading like wildfire over the majority of the Heartlands and is only likely to grow as the uncertainty of the Spell Plague has left many longing for absolutes. The Risen Sun Heresy plays Amaunator at the top of the celestial hierarchy as the King of the Gods while deriding the rest of the faiths of Faerun. It bears some superficial similarity to both Lathanderism and the original Amaunator Church but it is different in numerous radical ways. While the majority of it's members are not evil, most of them are close minded and radical in their beliefs. History and Relationships: Daelegoth Orndeir codified the various ideas of the Brotherhood of the Glorious Sun before the advent of the Spell Plague where he was assassinated by Shades from Netheril. His martyrdom backfired and immediately resulted in many beings starting to view the Shades as nothing more than incarnations of evil. Daelegoth Orndeir's successor, Keltis Doranthor, proved to be a highly successful rabble rouser but also a repulsive human being in most respects. Keltis was a bigot against non-humans and had a similar distaste against magic that would leak well into his writings that were spread by printing press throughout the Heartlands. His hand-trained acolytes were all deeply indoctrinicated into his views and sent to likewise spread the worship of Amaunator amongst the faithful. According to Keltis Doranthor, the Spell Plague was the result of the innate evil of magic. The death and madness of so many wizards has helped blacken their reputation in many places and the Risen Sun heresy takes this one step further. The heresy encourages individuals to actively abandon the practices of magic while covertly or publicly employing individuals to hunt down and slay those whom practice "Godless Sorcery." Likewise, the Risen Sun holds that there are only the gods of Faerun that must be tolerated. All interloper gods are to be given no worship or succor by any right-thinking Lathanderite. The only tolerated gods are those of the original Netherese pantheon that are held up as the "True Gods." The exception being Mystra whom the Risen Sun teaches was an abomination that never should have existed and was destroyed by Amaunator. Followers are encouraged to drive out the false believers and convert their temples to Amaunator's worship or one of his 'lesser' god servants. The Risen Sun has, of course, not proven very popular with Demihumans as their own gods are incompatible with the world view that Amaunator's faithful teach. While the Church includes many moderates, the strong indication is that they are not "Of Toril" and really shouldn't belong on this world that was made for humans. Only the most evil and twisted members of the faith actively voice this view, however. Any Demihuman or Humanoid who wishes to join the faith must renounce his previous Racial Pantheon completely. Amaunator's faithful draw their magics from lingering remnants of the Dead God plus Lathander in the manner of Ur-Priests. Lathander, openly, despises the Risen Sun heresy and considers it an abomination against his beliefs. However, he's not yet ready to lay fire and brimstone back upon the faithful since he considers them misguided rather than actively evil. Others are afraid that Lathander's lack of action will ultimately lead to the return of the intolerant and heartless Netherese Sun God whom no good man would prefer to the Morninglord. Dogma: There is a divine order to the world. There is Amaunator, his consorts and lesser gods, then the Church then the Kings of Mankind then the peasantry. The heads of the household as appointed during weddings and by age are also to be respected so long as they all follow the will of Amaunator. One should acknowledge the supremacy of the Sun God's scripture in all things and understand that his word is inviolate and unchanging. All gods that are not of Toril are abberations and to be fought. Magic is evil and fundamentally a violation of Amaunator's order. No spell caster should be given succor or aid until they abandon the evil arts that brought down the Spell Plague.
Kenzuki 03-01-08, 08:01 PM	Charles just ignor whatever WoTC does. If more people would just keep the things they like about the setting and ignor what they don't like about, you'de see less complaining on these forums. I mean how many of them actually use everything in the Realms as written anyway?
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 08:11 PM	Charles just ignor whatever WoTC does. If more people would just keep the things they like about the setting and ignor what they don't like about, you'de see less complaining on these forums. I mean how many of them actually use everything in the Realms as written anyway? I have my own thread about how much I ignore. That doesn't mean I don't faithfully follow my purchases though. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=983248 Generally, I can find useful material almost anywhere. However, I was a bit surprised that people were happy about Amaunator's possible return. Isn't, by definition, a pure Good deity becoming a LN Deity of Tyranny a bad thing?
Kenzuki 03-01-08, 08:19 PM	I have my own thread about how much I ignore. That doesn't mean I don't faithfully follow my purchases though. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=983248 Generally, I can find useful material almost anywhere. However, I was a bit surprised that people were happy about Amaunator's possible return. Isn't, by definition, a pure Good deity becoming a LN Deity of Tyranny a bad thing? The old Amaunator wasn't a god of Tyranny. That was Jergal back in the day. Amaunator was more concerned about Law and such. Also, what if this Amaunator is different than the old one was? What if he's become a combination of Lathander and Amaunator's portfolios?
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 08:26 PM	I'm referring to the fact Amaunator's faith was "Obey irregardless of whether it's Just or not."
Kenzuki 03-01-08, 08:27 PM	I'm referring to the fact Amaunator's faith was "Obey irregardless of whether it's Just or not." He wasn't Lawful Good you know. He was Lawful Neutral. Tyranny is Lawful Evil so he can't be the God of Tyranny. He was the God of Law, however.
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 08:33 PM	He wasn't Lawful Good you know. He was Lawful Neutral. Tyranny is Lawful Evil so he can't be the God of Tyranny. He was the God of Law, however. Which I am referring to as Tyrannical. not literally he was the god of Tyranny
Kenzuki 03-01-08, 08:44 PM	Ah I see.
sfdragon 03-01-08, 10:31 PM	however wasnt there 2 amuanator heresies?
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 10:43 PM	One became the other, I think.
Gallameed 03-01-08, 10:53 PM	Lathander becoming Amaunator once again is something that ties perfectly into our Saturday night epic game. One prominent character is very much favored by Lathander perhaps on his way to chosen. I cant say too much here as two of my players read these boards but Amaunator's return/rebirth is something I want to see. That and the new stance 4th Ed is taking on alignment is music to my ears as a DM. I just hope the new Amaunator proves to be less stuffy than his prior descriptions and keeps a little of Lathander's cavorting and dallying.
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 10:58 PM	I just hope the new Amaunator proves to be less stuffy than his prior descriptions and keeps a little of Lathander's cavorting and dallying. I can see my players priorities shifting immediately. 2. Resurrect Mystra 2. Kill every single follower of Amaunator and try to return the real God of Light.
Gallameed 03-01-08, 11:29 PM	I can see my players priorities shifting immediately. 2. Resurrect Mystra 2. Kill every single follower of Amaunator and try to return the real God of Light. In our games I'm playing it as Amaunator being the real god of light because Lathander is 'only' the god of the dawn. I look at Amaunator as a sort of tripartite deity of three sun aspects dawn, midday sun and dusk. So Amaunator kinda contains all those aspects -a proper sun god like Ra or Pelor etc? More powerful and complete? No doubt there would still be fair amount of people who stick to worshiping one aspect as well. Amaunator's alignment of LN is quite interesting.
Lord Karsus 03-01-08, 11:33 PM	Charles just ignor whatever WoTC does. If more people would just keep the things they like about the setting and ignor what they don't like about, you'de see less complaining on these forums. I mean how many of them actually use everything in the Realms as written anyway? -One's personal campaign and the canon Forgotten Realms are seperate entities.
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 11:36 PM	For me, it's the losing of the greatest NG god in the Realms to replace him with a poor substitute. I feel it's a bad bad change, like making Tyr LN. Also, I don't like Amaunator when I can say Lathander.
Gallameed 03-01-08, 11:41 PM	For me, it's the losing of the greatest NG god in the Realms to replace him with a poor substitute. I feel it's a bad bad change, like making Tyr LN. Also, I don't like Amaunator when I can say Lathander. I feel slightly bad about losing Lathander, he is a fun and quite charismatic personality among the various deities and its certainly bittersweet to see him go. In our games you can still worship Lathander as an aspect of Amaunator though. ;)
Lord Karsus 03-01-08, 11:42 PM	Also, I don't like Amaunator when I can say Lathander. -Lathander flows, whereas Amaunator does not.
Gallameed 03-01-08, 11:44 PM	Also, I don't like Amaunator when I can say Lathander. Yeah, Lathander rolls off the tongue better -Amaunator is like a really posh (and nasal) English person saying "A Minotaur!" down his nose at you. :D
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 11:55 PM	Eh, it's the LN aspect I disagree with even more than the name. Bane is just LE, you can't trust those Neutrals! You don't know where they stand.
SmartPaladin 03-02-08, 06:06 PM	Eh, it's the LN aspect I disagree with even more than the name. Bane is just LE, you can't trust those Neutrals! You don't know where they stand. Yes you do. They stand for what they think is best for them selves/their deity. If that means helping you, then they'll do it, if it means they have turn you over, then they'll do it. Almost comes down to what they think is "right".
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 06:28 PM	-I also think that Lathander was too important of an entity within the Realms to replace. Assuming that Lathander-into-Amaunator reclaims Amaunator's portfolios, that leaves the very important portfolios of 'Spring', 'Dawn', 'Birth', 'Renewal', 'Creativity', 'Youth', 'Vitality', 'Self-Perfection', and 'Athletics' vacant.
Charles Phipps 03-02-08, 06:32 PM	Yes you do. They stand for what they think is best for them selves/their deity. If that means helping you, then they'll do it, if it means they have turn you over, then they'll do it. Almost comes down to what they think is "right". You're mistaken on standing....because I've chopped out their legs. Religious persecution is justified when against Neutrals! ;-)
Kenzuki 03-02-08, 08:14 PM	-I also think that Lathander was too important of an entity within the Realms to replace. Assuming that Lathander-into-Amaunator reclaims Amaunator's portfolios, that leaves the very important portfolios of 'Spring', 'Dawn', 'Birth', 'Renewal', 'Creativity', 'Youth', 'Vitality', 'Self-Perfection', and 'Athletics' vacant. What if he keeps all of those and just adopts Amaunator's too? Well he wouldn't have Dawn probably now that he is the Sun God and all.
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 02:12 AM	What if he keeps all of those and just adopts Amaunator's too? Well he wouldn't have Dawn probably now that he is the Sun God and all. -Thematically, why would he keep 'Dawn', 'Renewal', and/or 'Birth', his three greatest 'strengths'? A 'High Sun'/'Noon' deity, in my mind, is not associative with 'birth' and 'renewal', wheras a 'dawn' deity is.
GreenKnight 03-03-08, 03:28 AM	Is there any reason to assume that Amaunator's presence means that Lathander is gone? Because while it's thought by some that Amaunator became Lathander, that isn't necessarily true. Personally, I think it'd be great to have both Lathander and Amaunator in the pantheon. Let Amaunator be the Greater God of Bureaucracy, Contracts, Law, Order, the Sun, and Rulership, while Lathander is the Greater God of Athletics, Birth, Creativity, Dawn, Renewal, Self-Perfection, Spring, Vitality, and Youth. None of those Portfolios overlap, so why not? Not to mention that Amaunator's presence would have an interesting effect on Lathander. Give him a sense of desperation and fear. Not a fear of Amaunator himself, but of what he represents. Isn't that the basic gist of the Three-Faced Sun Heresy? The heretics in question most likely got it wrong that the three faces are aspects of one greater deity, but they're probably right in that only two faces can be shown at once. And that's what Lathander fears. That his time is running out. Now that the Highsun has returned, the Lord of Dusk can't be far behind. And once he arrives, it's over for Lathander.
Kenzuki 03-03-08, 09:48 AM	That's a thought Greenknight. Jergal or Myrkul could be the Lord of Dusk!
yarethon 03-03-08, 11:15 AM	Is there any reason to assume that Amaunator's presence means that Lathander is gone? Because while it's thought by some that Amaunator became Lathander, that isn't necessarily true. Personally, I think it'd be great to have both Lathander and Amaunator in the pantheon. Let Amaunator be the Greater God of Bureaucracy, Contracts, Law, Order, the Sun, and Rulership, while Lathander is the Greater God of Athletics, Birth, Creativity, Dawn, Renewal, Self-Perfection, Spring, Vitality, and Youth. None of those Portfolios overlap, so why not? I fear, that as the designers are trying to move away from real life inspired faiths, they might have decided to let Lathander go. Some argue that he is very similar to Mitra. In fact, I have a player that likes playing a cleric of Lathander just because of that. I don't think FR will have more than one god associated with the sun, simply because the trend is to simplify the pantheon... otherwise there would be no need for things like Sehanine = Selune Anyway.. I hope I am wrong, because I would chose the Morninglord over Amaunator anyday.
Perun 03-03-08, 02:50 PM	Just in case someone doesn't follow the The one and only "Ask the Realms authors/designers thread" (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=702942), Richard Baker has an interesting bit on Lathander/Amaunator in the 4e Realms: Lathander and Amaunator are the same being. Over centuries, the sun god assumes various incarnations more or less analogous to the various times of the day. He was beginning to shift toward his "high noon" aspect even at the end of 3e, and by 1479 DR, he's firmly in his new aspect. (Interestingly enough, I don't know if we've ever said what his evening aspect would be. Presumably he would have been in the evening aspect sometime around the 3rd-4th-5th century DR, because you'd suppose that would fall between his last noontime incarnation and his Lathander incarnation, which was definitely in place by the 7th century DR.)
Kenzuki 03-03-08, 03:24 PM	I called it! Wouldn't the Dusk Aspect have been Jergal/Myrkul being that they had the Dusk Portfolio?
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 03:50 PM	Wouldn't the Dusk Aspect have been Jergal/Myrkul being that they had the Dusk Portfolio? -Technically, it should be. Having had Jergal/Myrkul and Lathander exist at the same time, with the Dusk and Dawn portfolios existing at the same time supports Green Knight's idea of two faces of the Three-Faced-Sun being present at once. That is, of course, going on the assumption that the 'Dusk' portfolio is the compliment of the 'Dawn' and 'High Noon' portfolios. There's no reason not to think that, though, as it fits thematically. -However, the idea of the Sun deity having three aspects that are all the same, but existing all at different times is a horrible continuity problem. There are plenty of established Lathander mentions during the 3rd, 4th, and 5th centuries Dale Reckoning. Jergal/Myrkul, in possession of the Dusk portfolio, have existed at the same time as Lathander and Amaunator. -Tisk, tisk, tisk...
Kenzuki 03-03-08, 04:06 PM	Yeah....I prefer Greenknight's idea personally. It makes more sense if they are going this route. They could also bring Jergal back to prominance. I like the idea put forth by the Age of Worms campaign that Jergal has some secret ambitions of his own. Namely becoming the Overgod of Death with Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, and Kyuss as his Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse hehe.
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 04:14 PM	Yeah....I prefer Greenknight's idea personally. It makes more sense if they are going this route. -As do I. It appeals to me both personally, and it conforms to continuity better than the actual, official explanation of what is going on does. He already changed Torm. Can he lobby to change this Lathander-Amaunator debacle?
Charles Phipps 03-03-08, 04:21 PM	Personally, I hate Jergal with the fury of a thousand suns and I'd actually drop FR completely if they got rid of Kelemvor. Bluntly, I just don't think he can hold a candle to a noble warrior Death God. My only problem with Green Knight's idea is that frankly, there's so much :censored: darkness, that the Neutral Good God of Fun and Happiness becoming a LN Punk with the idea that there's a LE one on the way is just yet more depressing horror. Can't we have some GOOD news for a change?
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 04:32 PM	-For there to be 'Points of Light', there needs to be more darkness than light. :rolleyes: :P
Charles Phipps 03-03-08, 04:38 PM	-For there to be 'Points of Light', there needs to be more darkness than light. :rolleyes: :P There's a difference between J.R.R. Tolkien where it's Elrond, Elves, Gondor, and Rohan as Points of Light vs. Sauron and Mad Max/Dark Sun. For points of light to exist, there needs to be LIGHT capable of breaking through and conquering the darkness.
Kenzuki 03-03-08, 05:36 PM	If Jergal wanted to he could seriously mess up Kelemvor. Remember how he helped undermine Cyric when he thought the little prick wasn't doing it right? I have a feeling that as soon as Jergal is done with this break he'll do something to get his power back. Legends claim that the reason he even stepped down was out of penence for creating Kezef the Chaos Hound in a fit of madness when he realized that even though he was God of Death the souls of all the Dead didn't spend eternity with him. Jergal is the shizz and I hope the wizos do something awesome with him.
Charles Phipps 03-03-08, 05:46 PM	Jergal: At last, you know the full scope of my....URK *Kelemvor stabs Jergal and takes his stuff*
Kenzuki 03-03-08, 05:48 PM	Jergal: At last, you know the full scope of my....URK *Kelemvor stabs Jergal and takes his stuff* The question is can he do that before Jergal writes his name down and kills him?
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 05:58 PM	For points of light to exist, there needs to be LIGHT capable of breaking through and conquering the darkness. -That's progressing. For there to be points of light, darkness needs to overwhelm the light, reducing it to small points. That the light retake it's place and conquer the darkness is not part of the initial defininging idea of 'Points of Light'. The question is can he do that before Jergal writes his name down and kills him? -It'd happen when Jergal is writing his name down. From the monotony of writing names all the time, he doesn't relalize at first. Then, as he looks up, wondering outloud, "WTF", Kelemvor strikes.
Kenzuki 03-03-08, 07:09 PM	-That's progressing. For there to be points of light, darkness needs to overwhelm the light, reducing it to small points. That the light retake it's place and conquer the darkness is not part of the initial defininging idea of 'Points of Light'. -It'd happen when Jergal is writing his name down. From the monotony of writing names all the time, he doesn't relalize at first. Then, as he looks up, wondering outloud, "WTF", Kelemvor strikes. Kelemvor is too stupid for that. Jergal is much more brillient than he. Jergal is the God of Fatalism, he is the Lord of the End of Everything. He knows things others do not. Kelemvor would be dead meat if Jergal wanted his post back.
Charles Phipps 03-03-08, 07:14 PM	Kelemvor is too stupid for that. Jergal is much more brillient than he. Jergal is the God of Fatalism, he is the Lord of the End of Everything. He knows things others do not. Kelemvor would be dead meat if Jergal wanted his post back. That Jergal hasn't existed since Netheril. Frankly, I'll be glad when they make him an Exarch because it'll show that he was genuine in his commitment not to be a God anymore. Seriously, I hate undermining gods of the pantheon just because they're new. Bane could beat Shar even though she's 10,000,000 or so years older because HE'S A GREATER GOD. -That's progressing. For there to be points of light, darkness needs to overwhelm the light, reducing it to small points. That the light retake it's place and conquer the darkness is not part of the initial defininging idea of 'Points of Light'. Arguably, that was the Realms BEFORE the Spell Plague.
Kenzuki 03-03-08, 07:29 PM	You mean if they make him an Exarch.
SmartPaladin 03-03-08, 07:58 PM	Kelemvor is too stupid for that. Jergal is much more brillient than he. Jergal is the God of Fatalism, he is the Lord of the End of Everything. He knows things others do not. Kelemvor would be dead meat if Jergal wanted his post back. Sure, Kelemvor is the sharpest sword in the armory, but he's not the dimwitted. His only problem is that he doesn't think things through, he much more of "There's a problem, lets fix it." And all of that comes from the fact, that he has a noble Paladin like spirit, one that could never shine because of his curse. Once he was free of his curse, he wanted to help everybody and all that did was slow them down, so he had to rein that in, which wasn't easy. And now here he is once more, trying to be a fair and just Judge of the Damned, and having to cram what he'd want and hope for down deep inside of himself, so that he can be sure that he doesn't bring about the end of X number of deities just like he almost did. He's not a complete fool.
Kenzuki 03-03-08, 08:16 PM	Sure, Kelemvor is the sharpest sword in the armory, but he's not the dimwitted. His only problem is that he doesn't think things through, he much more of "There's a problem, lets fix it." And all of that comes from the fact, that he has a noble Paladin like spirit, one that could never shine because of his curse. Once he was free of his curse, he wanted to help everybody and all that did was slow them down, so he had to rein that in, which wasn't easy. And now here he is once more, trying to be a fair and just Judge of the Damned, and having to cram what he'd want and hope for down deep inside of himself, so that he can be sure that he doesn't bring about the end of X number of deities just like he almost did. He's not a complete fool. But a fool nonetheless.
Charles Phipps 03-03-08, 08:33 PM	Right, because you have the idea that Jergal somehow has a master plan that involves him giving away all of his power to gods that are arbitrarilly punished by Ao that results in 30% of Jergal's power now in the hands of Cyric, 30% in Bane, and only about 30% in the god he directly has influence over. A God, it's pointed out, who ignores him half the time. Also, the whole "Kelemvor has his name written in and dies" doesn't really work. This isn't Death Note.
Kenzuki 03-03-08, 08:39 PM	He's the God of Fatalism, of course he has a master plan. The Risen Sun heresy has proven correct. This ment that if Jergal had remained the God of Dusk he would have died. By passing on his powers to others he survived. Take note that Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul all died during the Time of Troubles. Cyric and Kelemvor were upstart mortals who just so happened to be in the right place at the right time. But that's fine, Jergal can wait. He is called the Lord of the End of Everything for a reason. I really dig the example of how you can adapt the Age of Worms campaign to the Realms. It's all part of Jergal's grand plan.:D
Charles Phipps 03-03-08, 08:53 PM	He's the God of Fatalism, of course he has a master plan. Indigo Montoya voice: You keep saying that word, I do not think it means what you think it means. I'm fairly sure that Jergal gave up his role because, yes, he honestly got sick of it. He's not LE, he's LN.
Kenzuki 03-03-08, 08:56 PM	Indigo Montoya voice: You keep saying that word, I do not think it means what you think it means. I'm fairly sure that Jergal gave up his role because, yes, he honestly got sick of it. He's not LE, he's LN. So he would have us believe...
Boda 03-03-08, 10:13 PM	I like to think of the Risen sun heresy has a Cult of Aton. The first glance of monotheism. Lathander it's the first to be consumed...
Lord Karsus 03-04-08, 12:14 AM	Kelemvor is too stupid for that. -He was smart enough to go from dead to the deity of the dead, eh? He knows things others do not. -Everybody knows things that other people do not. Arguably, that was the Realms BEFORE the Spell Plague. -Very arguably. You mean if they make him an Exarch. -I can almost guarantee it.
GreenKnight 03-04-08, 11:26 AM	already changed Torm. Can he lobby to change this Lathander-Amaunator debacle? I need to get some new material components so I can cast my Realms Rearrangement spell, again.
Lord Karsus 03-04-08, 01:03 PM	I need to get some new material components so I can cast my Realms Rearrangement spell, again. -I have plenty of spell components in the shed. I don't know if it's locked or not, but here's the key.
Charles Phipps 03-04-08, 01:12 PM	Sorry, I used it all to get Nobanion changed.
Zsych 03-08-08, 07:49 PM	I can see my players priorities shifting immediately. 2. Resurrect Mystra 2. Kill every single follower of Amaunator and try to return the real God of Light. Wizards who have learned the ways of the new order will be more powerful than the old ones, and no longer limited by the will of the gods. I doubt they'll appreciate a return to an old and unstable system like Mystra's weave... although if it was returned it would likely have little effect on their magic, since like the few Netherese and such who learned how to access raw magic, they would still know how to do it, and would be able to automatically bypass Mystra. ... there's also the issue, of the countless other people, warriors, rogues, and what not else, who will have gained mastery of magic in their own ways, and won't want to risk becoming weaker and unable to achieve their great goals(since magical enhancement is gonna be an issue for high level characters anyway) ... I'd say that your characters are going to be picking a fight with the greater forces of the post-spell plague world... assuming that there is a way to do what they want.
Charles Phipps 03-08-08, 07:58 PM	... I'd say that your characters are going to be picking a fight with the greater forces of the post-spell plague world... assuming that there is a way to do what they want. Eh, they've picked fights with the gods before. Often to their deterrment. What a bunch of megalomaniacs want Post-Spell Plague is immaterial to restoring a goddess who encourages responsible use of magic.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-10-08, 01:08 PM	Wizards who have learned the ways of the new order will be more powerful than the old ones, and no longer limited by the will of the gods. Everything has limits, with or without the gods.
SmartPaladin 03-11-08, 09:28 PM	Everything has limits, with or without the gods. Truly, the body can only hold so much energy before it runs the risk of burning it's self out. If a Wizard channels to much Magic, then they have to deal with a Brain burn, or some other power backlash. But a Sorcerer's run a greater risk because they have all of that innate magical power in them, so channeling to much power could very well fry them, and ether leave them dead, insane, or unable to ever again channel magic.