Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Dancing_Cleric 10-07-07, 08:42 PM	Alright everyone... this is gonna be like my other threads. I want to know what everyone says for the following: favorite, and hated deity, which should gain power, which should lose power. which should be brought back (if any) which should be gotten rid of (if any) these are my answers... Favorite Deity: Jergal Least Liked/Hated Deity: Corellon Larethian (just kidding)... Truthfuly it is Cyric (maybe he'll kill some elven deities too *Cyric smiles insanely*) Which should gain power: Jergal (replace Kelemvor!) Which should be brought back: Helm Which should be done away with if any: Cyric maybe Shar... but I don't think any should die even if I dislike them so... Which should be weakened: Cyric just because. What about Ao dying? What would happen? Who would take power?
Old Sage 10-07-07, 09:02 PM	There really shouldn't be any particular consideration given to whether Ao can or cannot die. His place in the FR cosmology should never be so easily defined -- especially from the perspective of mortals, or even other gods for that matter. Ao, simply, is... and that's enough.
Arbourean 10-08-07, 02:39 AM	Ao should be thankful Mystra isn't evil and so won't reabsorb all that power dispersed among her Chosen and elsewhere and decide that he has become rather unnecessary. :devil:
ywhtptgtfo 10-08-07, 03:22 AM	Ao will probably just take away Mystra's powers if that happens.
Suin Bahhar 10-08-07, 10:33 AM	I like Cyric. Dont hate me. Favorite Deity: Lots including Tymorra/Tyche, Assuran/Hoar, Set and Cyric Least Liked/Hated Deity: Kurtulmak (shaked dragon-egg) Siamophore (hate nobel elitism) Waukeen (money grubber) Which should be brought back: Aumanator and Sseth Which should be done away with if any: Gruumsh (and his orcses too ;)) and Shallia (dont know much about her) but I prefer even these stay offcourse
Dimensional_Drifter 10-08-07, 05:29 PM	Yeah, I don't think Ao could be killed all that easily. Besides, the theft of the tablets of fate showed that Ao has considerable power, and though some may want that power themselves, it is unlikely. If somehow he was replaced, there just insn't enough information to what would happen. and since no one else but Suin Bahhar answered those other questions and since I have nothing better to do... why not? Favorite: Eldath. also favor Lathander, Oghma, the other nature deities and Mask Least liked: Malar actually, Although I don't like Umberlee too much either. Which should be brought back: Leira, but it won't happen Which should be done away with:None Who should gain power: not sure. I depends on who loses power...
philnicau 10-08-07, 08:11 PM	Favorite: Lathander and Eilistraee Least liked: Malar Which should be brought back: Deep Duerra & Laduguer Which should be done away with: Mulhorandi Pantheon, there should only be one Human Pantheon. Who should gain power: No Idea.
Arbourean 10-08-07, 11:13 PM	Favourite: Corellon Larethian and others. Least: Finder Wyvernspur. Resurrected: Vhaeraun. Eliminated: Undecided. Promoted: Torm and Selune come to mind. Enigma: Mask. He's either going to get back everything he lost since the ToT and then some, restoring him to Intermediate or Greater or....he's going to become prime Astral Plane real estate.
Storm_Silverhand 10-09-07, 12:01 AM	Heya, My answers... Favorite: A tie between Mystra, Eilistraee, Tymora, and Sharess. Least Liked/Hated: Cyric, but then again you're not supposed to like him. Who should gain power: Tymora. She's a Greater deity in all but name. ;) Who should be brought back: Pre-4e? Leira. Post-4e? Mystra. Who should be done away with: No one. Weakened: None. Death of Ao: Not happening. (See, I wouldn't dream of cutting off another person's favorite deity.)
Dimensional_Drifter 10-09-07, 12:37 AM	Who should gain power: Tymora. She's a Greater deity in all but name. ;) You know, that sounds about right. Tymora is one of the most popular, and governs something that everyone wants: good fortune. I agree with this statement.
SgtAnjay 10-09-07, 12:40 AM	Favorite Deity: Hoar/Assuran Least Liked/Hated Deity: Finder Wyvernspur Which should gain power: Hoar/Assuran Which should be brought back: Leira Which should be done away with if any: Nope, none. Which should be weakened: Cyric
Arbourean 10-09-07, 12:40 AM	But will Beshaba rise up as well? I've always liked the idea that they're just opposite sides of the same coin.
Storm_Silverhand 10-09-07, 03:57 AM	Heya, But will Beshaba rise up as well? I've always liked the idea that they're just opposite sides of the same coin. They're not really mirror images. Beshaba will never be as popular or as powerful as her brighter sister... (But what would I know? I'm biased! ;))
Dimensional_Drifter 10-09-07, 09:58 AM	They're not really mirror images. Beshaba will never be as popular or as powerful as her brighter sister... (But what would I know? I'm biased! ;)) Yeah, I agree. Not mirror images really. (haha mirror images are the same except for a reversal of the left and right of the image... Maybe Beshaba is the back of the mirror and not the shiny side?) Besides, I don't think there are many people that actually like misfortune. They are two like to sides of the same coin, but not equal as their power depends on the number of worshipers, and I say that Tymora would always be far more popular than Beshaba.
Steel General 10-09-07, 03:47 PM	Favorite Deity: Red Knight Least Liked/Hated Deity: Kelemvor Which should gain power: Mask Which should be brought back: Myrkul Which should be done away with if any: Shar
SgtAnjay 10-09-07, 07:22 PM	Yeah, I agree. Not mirror images really. (haha mirror images are the same except for a reversal of the left and right of the image... Maybe Beshaba is the back of the mirror and not the shiny side?) Besides, I don't think there are many people that actually like misfortune. They are two like to sides of the same coin, but not equal as their power depends on the number of worshipers, and I say that Tymora would always be far more popular than Beshaba. Tymora will definately be more popular....but no one can ignore Beshaba. Pray only to Tymora and not Beshaba, and maybe you'll turn up an old stash of burried gold coins with your plow, but when you go home you'll find the oak tree fell and smashed your house. Maybe you'll find the secret door to the ancient riches in the old king's dungeon by accident, but it'll be right after a tribe of umber hulks made it their home. I've always theorized Tymora and Beshaba both should be more powerful, but they're so busy actively opposing each other and canceling each other out that they burn up much of their potential power.
Arbourean 10-09-07, 07:27 PM	Heya, They're not really mirror images. Beshaba will never be as popular or as powerful as her brighter sister... (But what would I know? I'm biased! ;)) Not as popular, but still her equal in power. You mean you don't send a silent prayer to Beshaba in hopes the DM makes a bad roll? :P
Storm_Silverhand 10-10-07, 04:52 AM	Heya, Not as popular, but still her equal in power. You mean you don't send a silent prayer to Beshaba in hopes the DM makes a bad roll? :P No, I pray to Tymora that the roll goes my way... ie: that I'm lucky. ;)
Amon Hok 10-10-07, 05:02 AM	Favorite Deity: Selune, Torm, Eldath, Savras, Sharess, Shiallia, Siamorphe. Least Liked/Hated Deity: I don't care for the Mulhorandi Pantheon or Tiamat. Which should gain power: Gond (Should break away from Oghma and be his own deity and a greater one at that.) Which should be brought back: Savras Which should be done away with if any: The Mulhorandi Pantheon and Tiamat Which should be weakened: None i think they should be more powerful, well beyond the score of ordinary mortals even deamons should fear a demi-power
customdrapery 10-10-07, 12:33 PM	Favorite Deity: Lathander, Tempus, Silvanus, Jergal Least Liked/Hated Deity: Finder, Kelemvor, Siamorphe Which should gain power: Jergal Which should be brought back: Myrkul (or Jergal should take back the dead) Which should be done away with if any: Sharess, Shiallia, Siamorphe, Valkur (I think their portfolios overlap with their superiors and they should just be absorbed) Which should be weakened: I think most of the levels are okay.
Dimensional_Drifter 10-10-07, 04:58 PM	oops, double post. Need to delete one.
Dimensional_Drifter 10-10-07, 04:59 PM	Which should be done away with if any: Sharess, Shiallia, Siamorphe, Valkur (I think their portfolios overlap with their superiors and they should just be absorbed) Whatdya mean "portfolios overlap with their superiors and they should be absorbed"???? You think they should get rid of all demipowers? Last time I checked, Valkur and Siamorphe really didn't have superiors even though they are in Warrior's Rest and the House of the Triad respectively, and I think their portfolios are relatively unique to their character (even if most dislike Siamorphe). Valkur is of sailors, ships, favorable wind, and naval combat, and although Tempus could easily have naval combat, who would you want to give the other portfolios to, Umberlee? Although Selune has navigation and navigators, I think Valkur should stay. Shiallia and Sharess on the other hand fall under Mielikki and Sune respectively. I like how Sune doesn't have Sharess's portfolios, it keeps love and lust separate. Also although Mielikki has forests as her portfolio, I don't think there is anything wrong with Shiallia's portofolios are kind of similar (and two are regional portfolios): the High Forest, Neverwinter Wood, woodland glades, woodland fertility, growth, and korreds. Shiallia is probably the only one that you mentioned that I can see the major overlap of portfolio, but I mean its almost like saying Mielikki should be absorbed by Silvanus for the same reason as forests overlap with wild nature, right?
customdrapery 10-11-07, 10:59 AM	What you stated is just what I mean, I don't think there needs to be a deity for everything, so some of the more minor ones should have their portfolios assumed by the deities they are in service to. I actually do think that the Faerunian Pantheon is a little bloated, it has 57 deities, that's a lot, and that's not including the Mulhorandi or any of the Demi-human deities. The Netherese pantheon only had 10. Shiallia has the porfolios of Woodland Glades, couldn't it be assumed that Mielikki who has the portfolio of forests already cover glades? Valkur has sailors and yes, Umberlee and Selune could have the evil and good sailors, respectively. My point is only that many of the demi-powers are very regional and they could be cut without anyone really knowing. I like the variety, but I think some of the more "specialized" deities could go. Just my two coppers.
Keahi19 10-11-07, 11:05 AM	Favorite Deity: Gond Least Liked/Hated Deity: Cyric Which should gain power: Gond Which should be brought back: Helm Which should be done away with if any: None (I think it's fine just the way it is. Doesn't need any more, doesn't need any less.) Which should be weakened: Cyric because in all honesty he just doesn't fit his profile. He's like a powerplaying evil little RPer who just likes to mess with everyone. What about Ao dying? What would happen? Who would take power? Uhh no clue.
Storm_Silverhand 10-12-07, 04:33 AM	Heya, I actually do think that the Faerunian Pantheon is a little bloated, it has 57 deities, that's a lot, and that's not including the Mulhorandi or any of the Demi-human deities. The Netherese pantheon only had 10. 57 is small compared to some Real Earth (tm) pantheons. Shiallia has the porfolios of Woodland Glades, couldn't it be assumed that Mielikki who has the portfolio of forests already cover glades? Some ancient religions have minor deities/spirits that oversaw individual mountains or streams, why should the Realms be any different? Also, by your reasoning, why have Mielikki at all? We have Silvanus, after all, and he's THE god of the Forest. My point is only that many of the demi-powers are very regional and they could be cut without anyone really knowing. Why? Those regional deities are very important to those in the region concerned. You do realize that some greater deities are really only venerated in small locales... Take Silvanus, for example, there's plenty of forests all around and not many people living in them. Who in a big city like Waterdeep would venerate him? I like the variety, but I think some of the more "specialized" deities could go. Just my two coppers. I love variety, and I don't think we have enough as it is.
booze 10-12-07, 08:41 AM	I love variety, and I don't think we have enough as it is. YES! i'm one of the few people (i think) who want rather more than less deities... so many portfolios are deityless as it is already... why take even more away i'm also pro small local deities that are only cared or even known about in certain places
Alediran 10-12-07, 09:22 AM	Favorite: The Seldarine, The Dark Seldarine (except Lolth), most good neutral and evil gods Least liked: Cyric Which should be brought back: Everyone but Cyric Which should be done away with: Cyric Who should gain power: Mystra should be DvR 19 Who should be weakened: Shar (loosing the SW)
customdrapery 10-12-07, 10:08 AM	Originally posted by Storm_Silverhand: Also, by your reasoning, why have Mielikki at all? We have Silvanus, after all, and he's THE god of the Forest. I thought of that when I was writing it, and you're correct, by my logic we could get by with basically greater deities and they could have aspects or non-deity servants that take care of specific things like woodland glades and forests. The only reason I would argue to keep Mielikki is that she has the portfolios for Rangers and Autumn. She could just have those, because any worshiper who needs to converse about a forest, probably would indeed go to Silvanus. 57 is small compared to some Real Earth (tm) pantheons. I'm curious which ones. If we look at the major pantheons, Greek/Roman, Norse, Eqyptian, Celtic, etc, I'm not aware of any that have that many deities and historically, the Greeks started combining some of their deities later on. Why? Those regional deities are very important to those in the region concerned. You do realize that some greater deities are really only venerated in small locales... Take Silvanus, for example, there's plenty of forests all around and not many people living in them. Who in a big city like Waterdeep would venerate him? Yes, you're right, they are important, but they could still be wrapped up into Silvanus without much difficulty (different aspects, as mentioned above). I would say that most folks who live in or near a forest pay lip service to Silvanus in some capacity, that's a fairly large number of people. And Waterdeep does have a shrine to both Mielikki and Silvanus. I don't mind having variety in the deities that provides basically a pick and choose for people wanting to play clerics for what domains they would like. The problem I have with it is that it seems like we have a deity for everything. and that's a problem. You don't need a deity for "building bridges" or "clothing" or "moonlight falling on a specific lake". I feel that some of the demi-gods border on being that trivial. If there are going to be regional deities, why is there a unified Faerunian pantheon? It sounds to me more like different regional pantheons, which have almost been done away with. I don't want to suggest that we do away with the majority of deities, just some of them. And I'm not at all happy with the way WotC seem to be paring down the list.
Alediran 10-12-07, 10:28 AM	It's not bad to have a god for even so minor things in a world where gods are real. What would had happened during the age of polytheistic religions if the gods suddenly showed themselves to mortals, wouldn't they started to believe that everything was connected to gods? That is the kind of belief that allows gods to be created. Mortals create a god by believing that an aspect of the world is under the surveillance of said god.
customdrapery 10-12-07, 12:33 PM	You're right, mortals would start assuming that worldly things were being "watched" over or controlled by a deity, I just don't think they would create a new god for it, they would attribute it to one of the beings already in existence who had the greater portfolio. For instance, if as a mortal you found divine inspiration in the moonlight falling on Lake Clear Water, you wouldn't create a god for the moonlight falling on said lake, you would attribute your divine inspiration to the goddess of moonlight. And even if you decided that this was a separate entity and "created" a new deity, it would probably be that greater deity just going along with you, when in reality they were in charge.
Alediran 10-12-07, 12:43 PM	It all goes up to perception. And the realms are a varied place with many different perceptions.
Bluenose 10-12-07, 02:29 PM	Favourite Deity: Brandobaris Least Liked: Shar - it seems like she's getting everywhere Which should gain power: Selune Which should be brought back: Myrkul Which should be done away with: Really don't care Which should be weakened: the Seldarine What about Ao: he's more powerful than all the others combined, in my view it's better to leave him alone. I've no objection to the number of deities in the Faerunian pantheon, but I'd rather much more emphasis was put on their regional origins. I'd prefer a number of smaller pantheons, Calishite, Choindathan, Illuskan, etc. but I think it's too late for that. However, the fact that not all the deities are widely known or worshipped really should be emphasised more than it is.
booze 10-12-07, 04:16 PM	I'm curious which ones. If we look at the major pantheons, Greek/Roman, Norse, Eqyptian, Celtic, etc, I'm not aware of any that have that many deities and historically, the Greeks started combining some of their deities later on. "The gods and goddesses of Hinduism amount to thousands or even millions[...]":P http://hinduism.about.com/od/hinduism101/a/gods.htm
Storm_Silverhand 10-12-07, 07:43 PM	Heya, I thought of that when I was writing it, and you're correct, by my logic we could get by with basically greater deities and they could have aspects or non-deity servants that take care of specific things like woodland glades and forests. The only reason I would argue to keep Mielikki is that she has the portfolios for Rangers and Autumn. She could just have those, because any worshiper who needs to converse about a forest, probably would indeed go to Silvanus. You might think that, but I don't think so. I think you're operating from a false perception, which I'll talk about a bit later... I'm curious which ones. If we look at the major pantheons, Greek/Roman, Norse, Eqyptian, Celtic, etc, I'm not aware of any that have that many deities and historically, the Greeks started combining some of their deities later on. Well, for a start, someone's linked Hinduism in this thread. Also, the Romans were perpetual borrowers - the main gods of their pantheon were not the only gods worshiped in their Empire... Isis, Mithras, Epona, Silvanus, and other deities were venerated, and there were plenty of other minor regional deities that were venerated in other places, and sometimes only in specific towns or regions. So to say that the Roman pantheon was a small one is false. Also some societies practiced the likes of Ancestor worship - and if that's not thousands upon thousands of "little gods", then I don't know what is. Yes, you're right, they are important, but they could still be wrapped up into Silvanus without much difficulty (different aspects, as mentioned above). I would say that most folks who live in or near a forest pay lip service to Silvanus in some capacity, that's a fairly large number of people. And Waterdeep does have a shrine to both Mielikki and Silvanus. Yes, there is a Shrine there. It's very telling it's to multiple deities. I would say there would be a rather small number of people mainly venerating those two deities (I believe there's another nature deity involved at that shrine, but I'm in a touch of a hurry as I post this, and can't spare the time to find the information). But the thing with the Realms is, while we have "patron deities" we're still talking about a polytheistic society and not a society with a bunch of monotheistic religions. People venerate more than just one god in their day to day life. I don't mind having variety in the deities that provides basically a pick and choose for people wanting to play clerics for what domains they would like. The problem I have with it is that it seems like we have a deity for everything. and that's a problem. You don't need a deity for "building bridges" or "clothing" or "moonlight falling on a specific lake". I feel that some of the demi-gods border on being that trivial. If there are going to be regional deities, why is there a unified Faerunian pantheon? It sounds to me more like different regional pantheons, which have almost been done away with. Having deities and spirits associated with natural phenomena is more common than not in non-Abrahamic religions. Some spirits are venerated just as sincerely and piously as gods too. Many of our ancestors believed in huge amounts of deities and spirits. They obviously did believe a whole lot of gods were needed. So why can't this also apply to the Realms. As I said, I think the Realms has too few to be realistic. (I'm not necessarily saying the Faerunian Pantheon is general has too few deities (I think it does, though), I'm actually saying we don't have enough regional only Pantheons.) I don't want to suggest that we do away with the majority of deities, just some of them. And I'm not at all happy with the way WotC seem to be paring down the list. Well I think we both fall into the "not happy, Jan*" category on this. ;) *Reference to an old(ish) Australian ad for the business telephone directory "Yellow Pages".
ordilyak 10-13-07, 09:52 PM	Favourite Deity: Mask Least Liked:Shar Which should gain power:Shaundakul Which should be brought back:Moander Which should be done away with:Grumbar Which should be weakened:Shar What about Ao: Leave he alone...
Dimensional_Drifter 10-14-07, 12:19 AM	I know that I'm a bit late to reply to what has been said about the number of deities again, but I'll say it anyway. I think that the main reason that many people in western society see polytheism in such a way, ya know-- too many deities... well that is really due to abrahamic faiths, Judaism, Islam, Christianity, and the Bahá'í Faith all believe in one omnipotent, omniscient being -- meanwhile most ancient religions were polytheistic, and Hinduism or Shintoism being good examples of what those polytheistic ones were like. It's just perspective, what ideas people grew up with, ya know? That's how I see it.
customdrapery 10-15-07, 09:55 AM	Originally posted by Storm_Silverhand: Also, the Romans were perpetual borrowers - the main gods of their pantheon were not the only gods worshiped in their Empire... Isis, Mithras, Epona, Silvanus, and other deities were venerated, and there were plenty of other minor regional deities that were venerated in other places, and sometimes only in specific towns or regions. So to say that the Roman pantheon was a small one is false. Also some societies practiced the likes of Ancestor worship - and if that's not thousands upon thousands of "little gods", then I don't know what is. I took a gander over on wikipedia to get a handle on the number of Roman gods, and you are more than correct, the list was enormous. However, the point was made that most of them were very minor. The list for the major Roman gods was 27. My point was not that the Roman pantheon was small, but rather that the Faerunian Pantheon is larger than the majority. If you look at the published D&D material (even as far back as the original Deities and Demigods) none of the pantheons come up with 57 gods. They usually list just the major ones. So as far as D&D goes, 57 is big. I'd like to leave out ancestor worship from this discussion simply because that isn't why there are 57 deities in the Realms. I'll give you Hinduism and Shintoism though.:) The shrine to Mielikki in Waterdeep is shared with Silvanus. And most likely it is there for the few folks who wish to venerate one of the gods of Nature (maybe they're wood merchants or something). But, I'll concede that it probably doesn't serve that many people. But most of the worship to both Mielikki and Silvanus happens at shrines and not temples. Many of our ancestors believed in huge amounts of deities and spirits. They obviously did believe a whole lot of gods were needed. So why can't this also apply to the Realms. As I said, I think the Realms has too few to be realistic. (I'm not necessarily saying the Faerunian Pantheon is general has too few deities (I think it does, though), I'm actually saying we don't have enough regional only Pantheons.) I actually don't mind the idea of regional pantheons, that seems more logical than what is currently in place in the Realms. If the designers of the Realms wanted so many deities, I think they should have left the original spate of regional pantheons (Netherese, Talfiric, Jhaamdathan, Calimshite, Rus, Mulhorandi, Untheric, etc.) and not combined any of them. In game, I feel like when the pantheons merged, nothing got resolved, all the same gods exist, just shuffled around. Out of game, it seems like the designers kept adding gods to add more choices for PC clerics and now we're left with a list 57 deities long. I took a hard look at the deity list to see which gods I would actually cut if I were given the power to do so, and the number was surprisingly small. I would cut out: Shiallia (too much redundancy with Mielikki), Siamorphe (too small of a worship base to warrant being divine, IMHO), Sharess (redundant with Sune and she has the portfolio of cats, which seems odd since there isn't a god of dogs, yes I know she came from the Mulhorandi pantheon). So that brings my list down to 54. I kind of like how gods like Gwaeron work that they don't need their own church hierarchy, but just borrow it from Mielikki. I think more of the servitor deities should work that way. But, as always, that's just my opinion. In some ways I think we got along just fine with the deity list from the Old Grey box, which mentioned a few of the more regional deities and said that the number presented was just the major ones. I liked that because it left it open-ended for the DM to decide who to include from other pantheons or to create their own.
Storm_Silverhand 10-15-07, 07:04 PM	Heya, I took a gander over on wikipedia to get a handle on the number of Roman gods, and you are more than correct, the list was enormous. However, the point was made that most of them were very minor. The list for the major Roman gods was 27. My point was not that the Roman pantheon was small, but rather that the Faerunian Pantheon is larger than the majority. If you look at the published D&D material (even as far back as the original Deities and Demigods) none of the pantheons come up with 57 gods. They usually list just the major ones. So as far as D&D goes, 57 is big. How many of those deities fall in to the minor section of Faiths and Pantheons, though? Let me count... 28 are counted as Major deities, which brings us to just over the Roman number (There are 30, but 2, Eilistraee and Lolth, more properly belong to the Drow Pantheon, and thus I don't count them). That means the rest (29) are considered minor. So all in all, it's not as bad as you seem to think it is. Many minor deities are highly regional, and even some of the major ones have places where they're strong, and places where they'd be virtually unknown. The shrine to Mielikki in Waterdeep is shared with Silvanus. And most likely it is there for the few folks who wish to venerate one of the gods of Nature (maybe they're wood merchants or something). But, I'll concede that it probably doesn't serve that many people. But most of the worship to both Mielikki and Silvanus happens at shrines and not temples. I think Eldath is the third patron of the shrine in Waterdeep, by the way. I actually don't mind the idea of regional pantheons, that seems more logical than what is currently in place in the Realms. If the designers of the Realms wanted so many deities, I think they should have left the original spate of regional pantheons (Netherese, Talfiric, Jhaamdathan, Calimshite, Rus, Mulhorandi, Untheric, etc.) and not combined any of them. In game, I feel like when the pantheons merged, nothing got resolved, all the same gods exist, just shuffled around. Out of game, it seems like the designers kept adding gods to add more choices for PC clerics and now we're left with a list 57 deities long. I think I covered this above. In short, it's 28 major deities, and 29 minor ones - many of the latter are usually confined to a region - like Gwaeron to the North, Sharess to Mulhorandi and Calimport, Siamorphe to Tethyr and Waterdeep (with maybe one or two shrines in Cormyr). I took a hard look at the deity list to see which gods I would actually cut if I were given the power to do so, and the number was surprisingly small. I would cut out: Shiallia (too much redundancy with Mielikki), Siamorphe (too small of a worship base to warrant being divine, IMHO), Sharess (redundant with Sune and she has the portfolio of cats, which seems odd since there isn't a god of dogs, yes I know she came from the Mulhorandi pantheon). Sharess is not redundant with Sune. Sune is the goddess of Love, Beauty, and Passion. Sharess is the goddess of Hedonism. Hedonism is not Passion. Shiallia is the only deity with fertility of any kind in her portfolio. Siamorphe is only a demigoddess, and a very minor one at that. Think of her more as a saint. So that brings my list down to 54. I kind of like how gods like Gwaeron work that they don't need their own church hierarchy, but just borrow it from Mielikki. I think more of the servitor deities should work that way. But, as always, that's just my opinion. Gwaeron completely overlaps with Mielikki. Why is he any different to the three you listed above? (I know you didn't do this intentionally, but the three deities you'd remove are female, and the one that falls into the same category that you'd keep is male.) In some ways I think we got along just fine with the deity list from the Old Grey box, which mentioned a few of the more regional deities and said that the number presented was just the major ones. I liked that because it left it open-ended for the DM to decide who to include from other pantheons or to create their own. Well you're still perfectly free to do that. Don't let me or anyone else stop you! It's your campaign, after all. ;) :)
customdrapery 10-16-07, 10:03 AM	Originally posted by Storm_Silverhand: 28 are counted as Major deities, which brings us to just over the Roman number (There are 30, but 2, Eilistraee and Lolth, more properly belong to the Drow Pantheon, and thus I don't count them). That means the rest (29) are considered minor. So all in all, it's not as bad as you seem to think it is. Many minor deities are highly regional, and even some of the major ones have places where they're strong, and places where they'd be virtually unknown. I've never been happy about what seemed to me an almost arbitrary selection of deities that were considered "major". For instance, Lolth was considered even though she's part of a different pantheon and several that I would consider fairly major were placed in the "minor" section. For example, why is Uthgar considered in the "major" section, he's a lesser deity and highly regional, yet folks like Loviatar, Milil, Llira, and Talona are considered minor. I would re-order that list. So in my thinking I would include about 36 or 37 gods on the "major" list (including those listed above plus the other elemental deities and removing a couple as well). Of course, that's still not a huge number greater than what would be present as the major pantheon of the Romans. I think Eldath is the third patron of the shrine in Waterdeep, by the way. Not according to the information in City of Spendors (2e) or Volo's guide, but I don't have my 1e Waterdeep book with me to check that. Sharess is not redundant with Sune. Sune is the goddess of Love, Beauty, and Passion. Sharess is the goddess of Hedonism. Hedonism is not Passion. Shiallia is the only deity with fertility of any kind in her portfolio. Siamorphe is only a demigoddess, and a very minor one at that. Think of her more as a saint. I would like Sharess' portfolio to overlap with Sune. I think that the portfolio of passion could absorb hedonism. It even says in F&P (p. 66) that Sunites are hedonists. If Siamorphe is a saint, why is she a demi-power? My point is that she has too small of a power base to warrant her divinity. As far as Shiallia goes, I simply think that her portfolio of Woodland Glades and the High Forest overlap too much with Mielikki. I've always sort of thought that Chauntea could have fertility, she sort of makes a play for it with "cultivation" and the whole blessing of fertility by spending the wedding night on a freshly tilled field. Gwaeron completely overlaps with Mielikki. Why is he any different to the three you listed above? (I know you didn't do this intentionally, but the three deities you'd remove are female, and the one that falls into the same category that you'd keep is male.) It was completely unintentional, I assure you. Gwaeron (along with Finder) are a couple more that I could lose. I only mentioned Gwaeron because I like how he behaves as a complete servitor to Mielikki and in 2e didn't even have his own clergy, I like that situation better than many of the demi-gods having their own complete church. I think Shiallia and Lurue could have the same set-up, no clergy of their own, but work wholly within the church of Mielikki. This could be true for the deities of Magic as well, Azuth, Savras, Velsharoon operating within the church of Mystra. I don't normally limit player's choices for deities (it does provide variety in choosing domains), but I'm thinking of rolling a few of them together. Just out of curiosity, wasn't Ed's original deity list just those listed in the 1e FR with Waukeen added by Jeff Grubb?