Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nobanion_shiallia 07-09-07, 07:26 AM	Hello everybody! I have a special question on that deity ranking system. In "deities and demigods" it is mentioned, that the rank of a deity depends on its number of worshippers. So if Waukeen gets more and more worshippers (trading with matztica for example) she will rise to the level of an intermediate deity, right? But how does this system work with demigods? It is said, that only one superior being of a pantheon can control one special portfolio and if there is a connection with the portfolio of another deity, one of them must be a demigod. But what happens if that demigod gets more worshippers, enough to become a lesser god? Has it to fight the other god with the related portfolio or would that rising simply be accepted?
Faraer 07-09-07, 09:31 AM	This is all detailed in Faiths & Avatars (http://paizo.com/store/brand/forgottenRealms/roleplayingGames/2ndEdition/v5748btpy7mkq), which is the first stop for questions about Faerūn's gods. Ignore Deities & Demigods: it isn't Realmslore. Yes, the worship a god receives contributes to its power, though it isn't the sole factor. Enough extra worship might move a god from lesser to intermediate, but not necessarily or predictably. A demipower whose portfolio overlaps a more powerful god can't ascend above demipower. It's possible that a smaller god could usurp a bigger one, or share the sphere of interest, but as with all matters divine, there's no formula to it that mortals can understand or anticipate.
Old Sage 07-09-07, 11:11 AM	Yes, the worship a god receives contributes to its power, though it isn't the sole factor. Enough extra worship might move a god from lesser to intermediate, but not necessarily or predictably.Indeed. In terms of the published Realms, it's an aspect that's been there since the beginning. Cyclopedia of the Realms pg. 10:- "The 'gods' of the Realms... grow or diminish in personal power in relation to the number of mortal worshippers they possess."
Lord Karsus 07-10-07, 02:11 AM	-Other factors that contribute to the relative power of a deity, asides for the number of worshippers they have, include the fervor in which their worshippers worship them, and the actual portfolio that the deity holds.
dragonheart 07-10-07, 02:14 PM	realistically in the situation you are describing a lot of what happens depends on the demigod and the god in question as well as ttheir relationship to each other. Milil is now a lesser god but almost certainly started off as a demigod under Oghma. because their alignments and personalities match closely its quite possible that Oghma simply turned over appropriate portfolios to milil and renounced direct control over them allowing milil to rise from demi-god to lesser god. SImilarly, in hte the future, Lathander may turn over portion of his faith dealing with new beginings and assume more of aumantor's role as the full day sun, light, truth etc. aspect staying as a greater god and allowing finder to rise from demigod to lesser or intermediate deity. Sometimes a demi-god may not have any god with the same portfolios - shandukul is an example - he was once an intermediate god then as his followers decreased following the fall of Netheril he dropped down to a demi-god and now has risen back up to the status of a lesser god as he has gained followers. lots of potentials here as many lesser and demigods of opposing alignments have related portfolios. Basically if the demigod can find/alter their portfolios to have at least one that is not claimed by someone else then they can probably rise "naturally past the demigod level if they can gain enough followers. As always the final arbiter of whether a demigod's portfolios are sufficently differnt is AO (the DM).
Psionycx 07-13-07, 11:59 PM	Azuth and Torm were also once demigods who have since risen in status to lesser gods. Both were servants of a powerful patron (Mytra and Tyr respectively) who have been allowed to greatly expand their followings. This makes a certain sense if you consider that the gods don't just care about number of worshippers, but also the overall strength of the portfolios they oversee. Mystra, for example, wants to encourage the spread of magic use. Azuth assists with this by encouraging the study of wizardry in the Realms. Mystra has even allowed for him to have demigods reporting to him (Savras and Velsharoon) in an effort to appeal to as large a spellcasting population as possible. Tyr wants to spread Justice and Law, and Torm, as god of Duty helps appeal to the common soldier who isn't as into law and government as he or she is into simply upholding and defending those things. Also, while Tyr doesn't have anything against Helm in principle, he probably prefers to see worshipper's drawn to a Lawful Good ethos rather than a Lawful Neutral one. It's generally a win-win for a powerful god to allow their servants to gain in strength. No god is powerful enough to stand alone in the pantheon, hence most gods seek to form cliques that help them advance their goals. The Triad is stronger with Ilmatar and Torm holding their higher status than they would be if Tyr forcibly kept the down as demigods. Granted, some servitor gods will go their own way if they become powerful enough, but usually only if their ethos calls for it. And of course some powerful gods don't want their servants becoming powerful enough to break away. Bane always made sure to keep Xvim in his place as a demigod servant and never allowed him opportunity to become greater. Talos frequently creates the demigod servants and then forces them to use themselves up, figuring it's better to just raise up new ones when he needs them (which is why Velsharoon is hiding behind Mystra's skirts). An independent demigod may also gain in strength by actively promoting their worship. Shaundakul, once a more powerful deity, had declined to being a demigod after the fall of Myth Drannor. But after the Time of Troubles he started getting active again. He was aided by the fact that Waukeen was missing at the time and so many caravaneers turned to him and he was able to push himself back up to a lesser god. Waukeen is back, but he has managed to retain his newly invigorated following and thus his power. Remember that mortal worship is not montheistic in the Realms. While most people have a particular favorite god, they spread their prayers around to many gods as the need arises, and the gods draw strength from those prayers even if the mortal praying claims another god as a patron.
Faraer 07-14-07, 03:54 PM	Which makes counting 'worshippers' per se meaningless.
Ioulaum 07-14-07, 04:48 PM	Which makes counting 'worshippers' per se meaningless. Torm level up form Demi to lesser through attracting more worshippers. He has held the same profilio since the beginning.
Faraer 07-14-07, 05:05 PM	Through attracting more worship. My point is that you can't just count worshippers because they vary so much in intensity.
Ioulaum 07-14-07, 05:55 PM	I would liken worshippers and their zeal to money: $100 bill - fanatics $50 bill - true believers $20 bill - believers $10 bill - normal worshippers $5 bill - someone who prays to you on regularly $1 bill - somone who prays to you now and again Not all worshippers are worth the same but money is still money. Picking a $1 bill of the ground is still better then a empty pocket.
Psionycx 07-16-07, 07:48 AM	Which makes counting 'worshippers' per se meaningless. Well it does and it doesn't. But consider that this explains how rather anti-social evil deities can remain powerful even if the number of truly committed worshippers is small. Most everyone in Faerun fears Talos, even if the population segment committed to random acts of destruction is not large. However, think of it in terms of economics. A particular shopper probably doesn't buy from just one merchant. Most likely they patronize more than one. However, from the merchants' point of view, it isn't just important that the shopper comes to them, it's how much money the shopper actually spends in their store. A primary patron deity gets the bulk of a given worshipper's prayers. But again, the Realms are not montheistic. Most people do not pray only to one deity and one deity only. More likely they pray to other gods as relevant. So a farmer prays primarily to Chauntea. But he may pray to Talos, Auril or Talona (to stay their wrath), Waukeen (when trying to sell their crops), Llira or Sune (when looking for love), and so on. Obviously, the god that the mortal worships primarily gets the most benefit from their belief, as they are the primary focus of it. But the other gods can still benefit from stray prayers and belief. The worst thing to any god is to have mortals be indifferent towards them. Thus, gods like Bane and Cyric want even those that do not worship them to fear them. Also, any grip on a mortal's belief can be useful later on if trying to convert them. So the gods are forever pulling at each other's worshippers trying to gain more of their belief. It's a much more complex game than just counting the number of people who wear their holy symbol.
dragonheart 07-16-07, 10:48 AM	Also, any grip on a mortal's belief can be useful later on if trying to convert them. So the gods are forever pulling at each other's worshippers trying to gain more of their belief. there you go trying to think of it as a bunch of competing monotheistic deities again :P most gods aren't really out to "convert" folks to "their" faith. they are out to promote anda improve/expand they use of their area(s) of control in the natural world and thus to get more mention which expands their power. Its not that folks don't believe in them - they do - all of them all of the time. what the gods are competing for is things like who is listed first. say you are about to sail across the Moonsea - you awould say a prayer that invoked Valkur to guide your ship, SHandukul to send favorable winds, Shandukul and Waukeen for good trade on the other side and umberlee to keep her storms away from you this trip. the question is who first and who last? A follower of Umberlee would would call on her first and Valkur (a foe of hers) last; a follower of SHandukul would place his patron god before Waukeen and probably start off with both the segments to his patron and then end with Valkur and Umberlee. All would get mention from anyone making the trip but the placement order would matter as to how much "belief" each got.
Psionycx 07-16-07, 09:45 PM	But again, using the merchant analogy, each god wants the lion's share of a given mortal's worship. A merchant will want as much of a customer's money as possible. A god wants as much of a mortal's worship as possible. They also want the mortal to claim them as their patron so that they get custody of the mortal's soul after death. The Faerunian pantheon doesn't maintain a collective afterlife. Kelemvor's realm is just a miscellanous bin for the people that couldn't get into an afterlife run by one of the other gods. This is the major difference between Faerunian pantheism and real world pagan beliefs.
Faraer 07-16-07, 10:14 PM	The afterlife as conceived in the Avatar novels is not just out of tune with our-world polytheism, but with Faerūnian polytheism as elsewhere depicted and as conceived before those cryptomonotheist ideas found their way into the continuity.
Psionycx 07-17-07, 12:44 AM	The afterlife as conceived in the Avatar novels is not just out of tune with our-world polytheism, but with Faerūnian polytheism as elsewhere depicted and as conceived before those cryptomonotheist ideas found their way into the continuity. How so? I don't remember ever seeing any suggestion of a shared afterlife in the Realms. As long as I can remember (all the way back to 1E) the assumption was always that a mortal's soul ended up in the realm of their patron deity rather than in some common afterlife. It used to be that this contributed to the rush for possession of souls by fragmented pantheons, as opposed to hierarchial ones. I seem to recall in the novel Finder's Bane how a cleric of Bane was amazed by the hordes of dead entering the palace of Yen Weng Yeh, the Shou (Chinese) god of the dead. She was in awe and imagined how Bane could rule the Realms if he commanded all these dead. Finder explained that Yen Weng Yeh could too, but that he's answerable to the Celestial Emperor of the Shou pantheon and merely manages all these dead for his pantheon. The Faerunian pantheon is not a hierarchy and has no clear leader. So there are elements of individualism at work amongst the gods, most noticeably in the area of afterlife management. The Fugue Plane merely serves as a sorting ground and the individual gods lay claim to those that claim them as a patron (and who have not been false in doing so). This fuels some of the divine politics of Faerun. The gods are competing for worship and souls. But they don't each have dominion over all aspects of life, and so they find it hard to lay exclusive claim to any mortal's soul. But they do try to make their portfolio as important as possible while undercutting the other gods. Hence, Bane and Cyric studiously try to avoid provoking open warfare as a result of their plots because that would increase the importance of Tempus for example. They may try to encroach on each others worshippers to expand their sphere of influence, like when Talos tried to pass himself off as Malyk, a supposed god of wild magic. But the god they encroach on may be able to resist (as Mysra was). It's fun and complex.
MarkusTay63 07-17-07, 02:14 AM	Also, as we can see by all the gods that have some aspect of 'cofrontation' in their portfolios, its easy to just pick a specific niche and run with it. If a demigod has enough devine power to ascend to lesser god, then he/she would have to 'specialize'. Suppose their was a god of fishing, and their was a demigod of fishing as well. The first one was all about the sport of it, the second the mechanics of baiting the hook, the proper casting, etc.. When the demigod suddenly finds himself 'moving up' (frost kills all the crops and most of the herd animals), then there is a problem. The main god takes fishing on the oceans, since that is more about the sport, and the other takes fishing in fresh water, because there is a greater amount of mechanics involved. So now you have two gods of fishing who's portfolios are not exactly the same but rather compliment each other. Therefore, a demigod is never 'blocked' from becoming a lesser god, if he is willing to take a smaller piece of the pie. That doesn't mean that later on down the road one won't absorb the other and then we are back to square one again, especially if they get into a fight over the Moonsea. ;)
Faraer 07-17-07, 01:35 PM	How so? I don't remember ever seeing any suggestion of a shared afterlife in the Realms.No, but the stress on worship of a single patron, on divine judgement to involve punishment in a Wall, these focuses came from outside the original and core conception of Realms religion. I think the whole detailed, definite depiction of the afterlife and other divine mechanics, rather than in terms of uncertain mortal beliefs, was a mistake.
Lord Karsus 07-17-07, 11:03 PM	I would liken worshippers and their zeal to money: $100 bill - fanatics $50 bill - true believers $20 bill - believers $10 bill - normal worshippers $5 bill - someone who prays to you on regularly $1 bill - somone who prays to you now and again Not all worshippers are worth the same but money is still money. Picking a $1 bill of the ground is still better then a empty pocket. -I like that analogy.
Psionycx 07-18-07, 12:00 AM	No, but the stress on worship of a single patron, on divine judgement to involve punishment in a Wall, these focuses came from outside the original and core conception of Realms religion. I think the whole detailed, definite depiction of the afterlife and other divine mechanics, rather than in terms of uncertain mortal beliefs, was a mistake. It's unavoidable though. The Realms are not like the real world, where we can only rely on belief and theological speculation to guess at what lies in the afterlife. In the Realms clerics can communicate directly with their deities via spells. Magic and psionics can allow people to travel to the planes where gods dwell. Deities and their servants regularly communicate with mortals. This makes the afterlife a much less abstract affair in the Realms. People know what goes on and how it works. It's unavoidable given the more tangible nature of the divine. Now, in fairness, even in the real world pantheistic societies did frequently show favoritism towards particular gods. For example, while they worshipped the Greek pantheon, the inhabitants of the city-state of Athens had a special devotion to Athena. Other cities (often built around temples to particular gods and goddesses) also often showed divine favoritism. Likewise, the Roman peoples had a large panetheon, but indidvuals and even cities sometimes favored particular gods. Even individual emperors promoted their preferred deity sometimes. The ancient Egyptians also often did likewise, with particular gods being favored during particular dynasties. Pantheism does not mean that mortals worship all the gods in the panetheon equally. They may still favor a particular god while acknowledging other gods as well. Think of Odysseus as a good example. His preferred Olympian patron was Athena, but that didn't mean he denied the rest of the pantheon.
Faraer 07-18-07, 12:20 AM	In the Realms clerics can communicate directly with their deities via spells. Magic and psionics can allow people to travel to the planes where gods dwell. Deities and their servants regularly communicate with mortals. This makes the afterlife a much less abstract affair in the Realms. People know what goes on and how it works.Ed has repeatedly made it clear that they don't:It's generally a mistake for mortals (i.e. your PCs) to think they fully understand divine actions; by and large, humans in the Realms oversimplify the actions of deities and guess at their motivations, usually wrongly. The Great Wheel or any other cosmology doesn't bother me, just as avatar stats and the endless "but this god came first, or can beat that god" arguments don't: mortal PCs can't know the truth about the gods anyway, because every in-game source (supreme priests, avatars of the gods themselves, holy writings) they could possibly learn all this stuff from is biased. the debate as to Mystryl doing this and Jergal doing that and all of the other details that mortals (your characters) can NEVER know the full and true answers to (clergy and deities alike will both lie and distort for their own ends, after all) aside from the Time of Troubles, almost all divine doings happen offstage anyway, and mortals have no way to be certain of the truth of anything they’re told about them mortals 'know' lots of things about the gods that are just plain untrue, because gods lie to them, priests lie to them (sometimes unwittingly, through passing on church doctrine they don't know to be false or invented by a priest sitting nearby or of a previous century or three), and rumors distort everything, leading to 'common folk knowledge' that says a lot of things about the gods that aren't true.Even the rare folk who have entered the divine realms only see a small part. They don't know what it's like to die, travel there as a dead soul, and dwell there eternally; and if they did they couldn't communicate it -- recall Fflar's inability to recall the divine bliss of Arvandor in Forsaken House. Neither can they understand the underlying processes. And it wasn't unavoidable to publish scenes of gods talking to each other, with comprehensible human motives, in a manner that led many readers to believe it actually works like that. (I'm not suggesting that polytheism (pantheism is worshipping everything, not a pantheon) requires worshipping a whole pantheon equally.)
Psionycx 07-18-07, 02:24 AM	Realms mythology is designed like real world mythology. In ancient times in the real world the gods were commonly depicted as super-human beings who, while vastly more powerful than mortals, nonetheless interacted much like mortals do. If you read through classics like the Illiad, the Oddessy or many other ancient sources, the gods were commonly depicted as being like people, having conversations, hatching plots, expressing emotions and otherwise behaving like people, albeit people with great power and awareness. Also, people in the ancient world developed elaborate details about the nature of the afterlife, even in the complete absence of measurable proof. The people of the Realms have a lot more proof on their hands in contrast. Eberron has abstract gods and lots of uncertain theology. The Realms does not and never has. The gods may be on a higher plane, but they have comprehensible motives, and their realms are not remote.
Faraer 07-18-07, 03:17 AM	Beats me why you'd think Realms gods and theology are knowable or certain when Ed directly tells us otherwise. Homeric literature is not a transparent account of contemporary or earlier Greek religion, and in as far as it applies to the Realms it's to folk's ideas about the gods, not the gods' natures.
Psionycx 07-18-07, 03:48 AM	Beats me why you'd think Realms gods and theology are knowable or certain when Ed directly tells us otherwise. Homeric literature is not a transparent account of contemporary or earlier Greek religion, and in as far as it applies to the Realms it's to folk's ideas about the gods, not the gods' natures. Because Ed went and sold the Realms to somebody else, and as a result it doesn't necessarily match his exclusive vision any more than Greyhawk matched Gygax and his cronies. Hurts, but it's true. Also, I'm forced to point out here that even Ed has himself presented very "human" depictions of gods, most notably Mystra, in published novels. Homeric literature has certainly shaped the way the writers working on the Realms develop their concept of gods. While by no means an absolute catalog of ancient religion, they do provide a great deal of insight into how people viewed the gods during that time.
Wizardman 07-18-07, 07:10 AM	The question of what makes up a deity's DR is interesting. I'm interested in the god that, by all rights, shouldn't be a greater god but is: Bane. Xvim was only a lesser god, and he had two portfolios, that of tyranny and hatred. Fast-forward to Bane's return. Despite still having only two portfolios, despite not gaining a massive influx of worshipers, he is immediately restored to his status as a greater god. That doesn't make sense to me from a RAW standpoint.
Psionycx 07-18-07, 07:48 AM	I think it goes back to the ealier discussion: belief as opposed to just worshippers. While Bane's overall worship has taken a beating with the rise of Cyric to share some of his turf, Bane nonetheless has tremendous name recognition throughout Faerun. The loud declaration of his return probably triggered a great deal of anxiety in the minds of those amongst the general population that remember him. This swell of belief (read: fear) feeds Bane and allows him to become a greater god again. That said, I do agree that maybe his status is a bit inflated. But probably game designers saw little point to bringing him back at a lesser status. He now forms a Lawful Evil counter balance to the Chaotic Evil Cyric.
Faraer 07-18-07, 11:52 AM	Psionycx, the only seemingly contradictory material is those few novel depictions, and that's easily resolved by understanding that they're literary licence, as the authors would confirm. The rest of Realmslore, from the Old Grey Box through the Faiths & Avatars series to the latest books, gives the consistent picture of divine unknowability that Ed confirms above. Hence the drastically various mortal understandings of the gods (see FRCS p. 232, third paragraph) which are a widespread theme of the setting, factions and theological divisions even within worshippers of a single god (see Power of Faerūn, 'high priests of different temples often disagree on what the god wants faithful worshippers to do'), the unreliability and limited social role of divination, the nontemporality of the Dawn Cataclysm, the fact that Realms folk are consistently seen not to know in any detail about the afterlife, and so on.
Ioulaum 07-18-07, 01:30 PM	The question of what makes up a deity's DR is interesting. I'm interested in the god that, by all rights, shouldn't be a greater god but is: Bane. Xvim was only a lesser god, and he had two portfolios, that of tyranny and hatred. Fast-forward to Bane's return. Despite still having only two portfolios, despite not gaining a massive influx of worshipers, he is immediately restored to his status as a greater god. That doesn't make sense to me from a RAW standpoint. Xvim was intermediate. Bane was also intermediate when he came back but he then pick Fear and that made him a Greater God again.
Wizardman 07-18-07, 04:44 PM	Xvim was intermediate. Bane was also intermediate went he came but he then pick Fear and that made him a Greater God again. Ah. That would explain it. Thanks!