| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| DarkSongKnight08-19-07, 06:46 PM | "Divine Beauties" Sacred Fountain of Evergold Two Divine Beauties doth thou hold The Lady of Gold in her elven grace Whose beauty is timeless and knows no pace The Lady of Fire filled with passion Whose beauty burns bright but brief in fashion For these two beings whose Love never dies Who holds more beauty in thine eyes? :D I don't think I'm talented at poetry, haha, but I think it gets the message across. Basically, who do you think is most fair, and why? Hanali Celanil or Sune Firehair? IMO: I find many of Sune's symbols and colors attractive, but her dogma seems a bit too narccistic for my taste. So, I like Hanali more. |
| Green Elven Vampire08-19-07, 06:57 PM | Hanali hands down! or Oprah!!:rolleyes: |
| Narsil08-19-07, 07:18 PM | Hanali Celanil's a little bit on the thin side, but she's an elf so it's forgivable. Continuing on that exact point, however, she's an elf so therefore she has pressed the I Win Button already. Elves are my favourite D&D race by far and thus she wins. She also focuses more on 'love' rather than 'beauty' therefore she is less vain than Sune. |
| The_Shaman08-19-07, 08:04 PM | Hmm, wasn't Sharess taking a bath there every now and then? |
| DarkSongKnight08-19-07, 08:50 PM | Hmm, wasn't Sharess taking a bath there every now and then? You're absolutely right. She shares it as well. :D Though I think Sharess is more into sensual things than love and beauty per say. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin08-19-07, 09:16 PM | I like some vanity. Sune's OK. But I can't say I like one better than the other...I love both these deities so I really can't choose.:embarrass |
| DarkSongKnight08-19-07, 10:09 PM | I like some vanity. Sune's OK. But I can't say I like one better than the other...I love both these deities so I really can't choose.:embarrass Thats understandable. Spread the Love! Woot! :love: I really like the Sisters and Brothers of the Ruby Rose, which is what I find interesting about Sune... I see Hanali's followers as being some of the more liberal minded elves when it comes to humans too... Both are nice. But being a full elf, its Lady Goldheart for me... :D Half-elves make wonderful faithful for both goddess. |
| GothicDan08-19-07, 10:44 PM | Lathander please. Or Milil or Corellon. ;) |
| MerrikCale08-19-07, 11:19 PM | I'd say Sune, I like redheads and GD, I figured you for an Uthgar fan |
| godbeepit08-19-07, 11:46 PM | Sune definitely. Admittedly, I don't know much about Hanali but there's just something about Sune. |
| MarkHall08-20-07, 12:41 AM | Sharindlar. "What you need is a nice dwarven woman with a beard you can HOLD ON TO!" |
| DarkSongKnight08-20-07, 01:43 AM | Lathander please. Or Milil or Corellon. ;) Corellon is nice... and he knows a thing or two about fashion. Sky blue and silver. I hope I didn't send the wrong impression in my last post... I serve a goddess, otherwise... Sorry ladies.. :embarrass But if we're going down that road... :evillaugh Its great fun to have my character run up to elf guys and plant a big Kiss of Rapture on 'em. The dazed look is priceless. Whats even more cute is if they turn out to be Lawful. They get all huffy and embarrassed. So adorable! And don't get me started on the parties the faithful host! :dancin: Serving Hanali is wonderful. What more can I say? Hmmm... I <3 smilies. Oh the chaos! ;) |
| DarkSongKnight08-20-07, 02:40 AM | Sharindlar. "What you need is a nice dwarven woman with a beard you can HOLD ON TO!" Now now, we all know elves have a phobia of facial hair, and that they break out into hives if they touch it. :D |
| Splarg08-20-07, 03:05 AM | I'd say Sune, I like redheads I too have a thing for the red heads, therefore Sune gets my vote. Definately not Mystra, she looks like her face got hit by a shovel, you'd think she'd use some of that magic of hers to pretty herself up a bit, course she may be a bit beyond caring what others think of her appearance. |
| Zandilar08-20-07, 08:44 AM | Heya, While I do like Sune, I think they've misrepresented her. She is far too powerful a divine entity to simply be the empty headed, vain beauty that she appears to be. I think there's more to her, and I wish they'd give us even just a glimpse of her depth. I like Hanali too. She's one of my favorites in the Seldarine. (Tymora, Sharess, Mystra and Eilistraee are higher on my list of favorites, though. ;)) |
| MarkHall08-20-07, 11:49 AM | Remember, Sune's interpretation of her portfolio borders on Lliira's. While the shallow interpretation of her portfolio is vain beauty, they seek to beautify the lives of others... not just with their presence, but with love, friendship, and beautiful things. Even when not romantically interested in a person, a Sunite will seek to foster friendships with them, or for them, because that is another kind of love that she sees in life. A jeweler or goldsmith might pray to Sune as easily as he does Gond; Gond covers the mechanics of his craft, but Sune governs the art. A dancer might pray to Sune as easily as she does Lliira. Hanali's dogma is fair more shallow, from what can be gleaned from Demihuman Deities (and contrasted with Sune in Faiths and Avatars). She is concerned with beauty and romantic love alone, not placing Sune's emphasis on fostering beauty and non-romantic love, as well as romantic love. Sharindlar (since I mentioned her), is a much different kind of love deity. The other two lack fertility as an aspect... they are concerned with Love, not its consequences. This isn't to say that they're going to scorn a pregnant woman; there is beauty in pregnancy and what it creates; but they're not going to celebrate it the same way a Thalornor is going to. The elves would turn to Angharrdh, whose emphasis is on fertility and birth, not love itself (though, of course, Angharrdh is partially Hanali, she is also separate). Humans turn to Lathander for the celebration of birth; while his portfolio overlaps some of Sune's (in the creation of things), there's also a shared element of narcissim in it (Sune's love of self-beauty, Lathander's drive for self-perfection). The priestesses of Berronar Truesilver are another kind of love priest altogether. Unlike the other three, their emphasis is on marriage and familial love; of that which sustains a people. Neither humans or elves have a deity dedicated to marriage... not love and romance, but marriage itself. To loving someone who has left his dirty socks on the floor again because he stayed up all night with the babies. The halflings come closest to this, with their reverence of Yondalla, Cyrrollalee, and Sheela Peryoyl, with Cyrrollalee having custodianship of both friendship and the hearth and home, Sheela being the halfling deity of romantic love and beauty, and Yondalla covering many of the same aspects as Berronar... fertility, familial love, and children. Of the four races, I think humans and elves really have the most shallow understanding of love, in a deific sense; for both, love is valued for its beauty and the children it brings, but both are not represented by the same deity. In dwarves and halflings, love is not bounded by hearth and home, but it is enhanced by it; those cultures (and their deities) recognize the importance of family in the web of relationships which bind people together, and create beauty in life. (Gnomes are excluded from this; they have no deities of love and beauty, except for the beauty of made things. I've often wondered if the lost Ladies of the Golden Hills were the warders of these.) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin08-20-07, 01:53 PM | I have to admit, I've never seen Sune as empty-headed, but that's me. :) In my opinion, when people believe they look their best, they often feel more confident and happy in general. |
| Lord Karsus08-20-07, 03:50 PM | and GD, I figured you for an Uthgar fan -Uthgar is probably too hairy for Dan. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin08-20-07, 03:54 PM | -Uthgar is probably too hairy for Dan. And smelly. |
| Lord Karsus08-20-07, 04:09 PM | -Like Last Mythal provolone. ;) |
| selunatic239708-20-07, 04:42 PM | Hanali! :D |
| GothicDan08-20-07, 06:03 PM | If Uthgar shaved and took a shower, he'd be my cup of tea. The best thing about Drizzt is Wulfgar. |
| SmartPaladin08-20-07, 06:24 PM | Hoar! What? You mean me and my sister were the only one's who looked at his picture and thought he looked nice? If I ever go to a con, I want to go dressed as him... :P Anyway, let's see here... Umm... I guess I'll go with Sune as well. I'm a hopeless romantic at heart. And I always enjoyed toying around with the thought of a battle scarred Paladin of Sune. And him wearing his scares with pride, because they remind him of the love and beauty he was willing to sacrifice himself for to protect. |
| Zandilar08-20-07, 06:35 PM | Heya, I have to admit, I've never seen Sune as empty-headed, but that's me. :) Have you read Crucible: the Trial of Cyric the Mad? She's only in it a couple of times, but she really acts like an empty headed floozy. To see the depth of Sune, you need to read between the lines, and gloss over a few things. Which I shouldn't have to do. In my opinion, when people believe they look their best, they often feel more confident and happy in general. It is true, but unfortunately... Not everyone is born beautiful. |
| MarkHall08-20-07, 06:44 PM | I have to admit, I've never seen Sune as empty-headed, but that's me. :) If any of them are empty-headed, it's Hanali. |
| GothicDan08-20-07, 07:20 PM | You can be vain and materialistic without being empty-headed. Me, for example. I think being anything BUT materialistic is completely uninformed, ignorant, and escapist. Note: Apologies if that offends anyone. It's just truly how I feel: that there's no 'higher path' to life besides living it. |
| MerrikCale08-20-07, 08:38 PM | If Uthgar shaved and took a shower, he'd be my cup of tea. The best thing about Drizzt is Wulfgar. see I knew that. GD is all brains so he liked his guys all braun |
| VulcanStormwrath08-20-07, 08:50 PM | Sharess!:drool: |
| GothicDan08-20-07, 09:03 PM | see I knew that. GD is all brains so he liked his guys all braun Well, for purely aesthetic appeal - but I'm working on the braun myself, too. I find peak condition in any pursuit to be attractive. |
| MerrikCale08-20-07, 09:11 PM | Well, for purely aesthetic appeal - but I'm working on the braun myself, too. I find peak condition in any pursuit to be attractive. so whats you're saying is you got braun and brains? I wish I had one |
| GothicDan08-20-07, 09:13 PM | Working on it. Hopefully it'll be easier to figure out a decent work out schedule and dieting routine this semester. College sucks for that sort of thing, unless you're actually a jock. Sadly, I'm a physicist-in-training. To stay on topic: I think both Selune and Shar would be kind of hot, too. For girls. |
| MerrikCale08-20-07, 09:17 PM | To stay on topic: I think both Selune and Shar would be kind of hot, too. For girls. Selune not bad, but you gotta figure those "full moon" jokes would get tiring after awhile |
| SmartPaladin08-20-07, 09:50 PM | Selune not bad, but you gotta figure those "full moon" jokes would get tiring after awhile Nevermind the fact that sometimes she appears as a young girl... Which could make things all kinds of awkward... :embarrass |
| MarkHall08-21-07, 01:23 AM | You can be vain and materialistic without being empty-headed. Oh, apologies. If any of them are shallow in their view of their portfolio, it's Hanali. |
| MarkusTay6308-21-07, 02:47 AM | I prefer Loviatar... something about chicks in leather....... :drool: |
| Lord Karsus08-21-07, 09:00 AM | -What, Mark, no Luthic? :P |
| DarkSongKnight08-21-07, 12:00 PM | Oh, apologies. If any of them are shallow in their view of their portfolio, it's Hanali. I believe you're overlooking much of Hanali's portfolio. She has a much more varied one than Sune. If Hanali is shallow, then that makes Sune a complete airhead. The main differences between the goddesses of love (aside from race) are which types of love they choose to embody and encourage among their followers. First, lets look at Sune. It is clearly stated in her teachings that one must love oneself above all others, save for the goddess Herself. While this isn't truly a bad thing, it does promote a type of vain, narcissistic type of love. Sune does go on to say that beauty is not skin deep and to awaken love in others. Sune's teachings focus greatly on beauty, and it is in fact, her number one priority (as listed in her portfolio). Her followers promote beauty so much that it is said they help all others to look their best. I can't help but imagine a rather funny scenario, in which a cleric of Sune waves off a Banite, while saying "Alright, take care! Be careful of your new cloak while you're bashing those Lathanderian! You look wonderful!" So... who is vain and air headed? I'd be able to see a cleric of Sune skipping over wisdom for charisma, more so than a cleric of Hanali. Elves actually revere learning, after all. Moving on to Lady Goldheart. The number one priority in her portfolio is indeed love, but she also watches over artists, promotes artistic endeavors and magic item artistry, guides enchantments, and of course, inspires beauty. She accepts love in all of it's forms, without limitation. This includes the love of family (which she encourages through marriage), the enduring love between a couple that have been together for years, the formal courtship some elves pursue (which takes decades, and in some cases centuries to develop), and even the "puppy" love that many young people experience. This wholeheartedness goes so far as to actually skip over marriage as a requirement. This is in sharp contrast to Berronar Truesilver, who resides over marriage and more of a family oriented love. And truthfully, to see an arranged marriage in such a rigid society wouldn't surprise me. This is fitting for the dwarves however, who have to endure many hardships in their environment. So I imagine they would look down on such "puppy" love. Not so with Hanali. She actually places emphasis on this type of love, saying that it is the truest guide to life's path. To care for one another in such an unashamed, completely open and carefree manner, regardless of what others think, does seem blissful. Its endurance is questionable, but once again, it is still a form of love. Concerning romance and marriage, both of which is guided and performed by Hanalians, the elves, with their long lifespans, can be seen as truly able to delve into what a romance is. Courtly love is quite common among elves, as it is both formal and intricate. It takes decades, and sometimes even centuries, for an elven couple to unite. However, this makes their actual uniting and marriage all the more special. They have both been given the chance to truly explore how each feels for the other, and it is because of this, that divorce is nearly unheard of among the elves. This love is enduring across eons, and is what inspires legends. A great example is the elven queen herself, Amlaruil. All of her family has passed on, save for a single son. And yet, after facing tragedy after tragedy, her commitment to both her people and her family (namely, King Zaor) is unflinching. Talk about endurance, true love, and faithfulness. Hanali also governs artists and magical item artistry. This is tied in with the elven fascination and respect for magic. After all, magic is know to the Tel-quessir as "The Art." Many of her clerics are artists in their own right, and thus promote not only physical beauty, but also artistic beauty as well. It is said they tend gardens, create jewelry, sculpt statues (probably with the aid of "The Art"), make attractive garments (especially their own clerical vestments), make sure armor is as beautiful as possible, and even create personal or temple-based art collections. Ever seen a work of art thats made you sigh or is outright breathtaking? If not, go to a temple of Hanali, and I guarantee you would. :P So heres to Hanali, who encourages romance among all, who inspires beauty, and who accepts love in all of its myriad forms! ;) Again... who is vain and air headed? Sune's followers devote too much time to looking nice. At least followers of Hanali do something productive while they look nice. On a side note, I'm rather glad that Wisdom is still important for clerics of love. If it wasn't, the followers of each would be doomed. "I love him!" "Why him of all people?" "Well..." *awkward pause* "Oh! I know! Because hes pretty!" |
| DarkSongKnight08-21-07, 12:43 PM | Oh, and I mean no offense to the Sunites, followers of Berronar, or others. I'm merely expressing my opinions on my favorite goddess, and everyone is invited to do likewise. :D *bow* Spread the love. :P |
| MarkHall08-21-07, 02:06 PM | First, lets look at Sune. It is clearly stated in her teachings that one must love oneself above all others, save for the goddess Herself. While this isn't truly a bad thing, it does promote a type of vain, narcissistic type of love. Sune does go on to say that beauty is not skin deep and to awaken love in others. Sune's teachings focus greatly on beauty, and it is in fact, her number one priority (as listed in her portfolio). Her followers promote beauty so much that it is said they help all others to look their best. However, in her place as a Goddess of beauty, Sunites work much as Hanalians do; promoting artistry as a form of beauty, both through personal creation and by supporting artists and artisans; though Gond and Lathander hold those portfolios in the Faerunian pantheon, Sune (and Sunites) does a substantial amount to promote them through her actions. I can't help but imagine a rather funny scenario, in which a cleric of Sune waves off a Banite, while saying "Alright, take care! Be careful of your new cloak while you're bashing those Lathanderian! You look wonderful!" So... who is vain and air headed? I'd be able to see a cleric of Sune skipping over wisdom for charisma, more so than a cleric of Hanali. Elves actually revere learning, after all. Just because you can imagine it, doesn't mean it's likely; Sunites are still good, and oppose Bane's clerics in principle. As for Sunites skipping wisdom for Charisma... uh, that's kinda gamey, don't you think? I doubt people are making their character sheets before they're born, saying "I want to worship Sune! I'm going to pump my Charisma!" For what it's worth, both Heartwarders and Goldhearts have identical stat requirements in the 2nd edition deities supplements... Wisdom 12, Charisma 16. It is instructive, I think, to look at their dogmas. Yes, Sunites are encouraged to be attractive, and to promote it in others. However, they are also encouraged to sponsor those who create beautiful things, and to awaken love in others. Hanali, however, has similar precepts. But, as said in Demihuman Deities, "The greatest joy is the rapture of newfound love and the tide of romance that sweeps up those wrapped up in its embrace. ... Always give shelter and succor to young lovers, for their hearts are the truest guides to life's proper course.." I added the emphasis, but that's one of the main reasons she seems shallow; their joy is in newfound love, not the fullness of it. While they perform marriage ceremonies, "Hanali's concern is love, not necessarily marriage." And, given the section of dogma, she's not overly concerned with long-lasting love... just the newness of it. (Quotes are from page 115 of Demihuman Deities, under Dogma and Day-to-Day Activities.) This wholeheartedness goes so far as to actually skip over marriage as a requirement. This is in sharp contrast to Berronar Truesilver, who resides over marriage and more of a family oriented love. And truthfully, to see an arranged marriage in such a rigid society wouldn't surprise me. This is fitting for the dwarves however, who have to endure many hardships in their environment. So I imagine they would look down on such "puppy" love. According to Dwarves Deep, the dwarves don't go in for arranged marriage; Sharindlar governs courtship and love, and her priests work, not just for those who love, but for unions that are likely to work, in the long term, and to build links between clans. Berronar's priests work to knit together families and encourage the growth and education of children. They are, unlike Hanali's priests, in it for the long haul. That may be of questionable bliss (Gods know I'm not going to argue that marriage is fun and easy), but if done well, it's a lot more satisfying... the difference, to use a rather cruel metaphor, between living the high life as a coke addict until you run out of money, and getting a good job which, though its work, is enough to make you comfortable through retirement. You're a lot happier when you're on coke... but it's a lot shorter of a ride. Again... who is vain and air headed? Sune's followers devote too much time to looking nice. At least followers of Hanali do something productive while they look nice. Both, really. "Hanali's priests are flighty and somewhat vain, given to dancing and wild celebrations." -Demihuman Deities, page 115 "Sunites are aesthetes and hedonists, who actively seek out pleasure and beauty in all things." -Faiths and Avatars, page 151 (And this message took me the entirity of "Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey" to type... I was a bit distracted. Milil gave rock and roll to you!) |
| GothicDan08-21-07, 02:45 PM | I'll still point out that I see nothing shallow in the above. The Greeks largely created and promoted the ideas of hedonism, and I'd hardly consider Epicurus to be shallow. Of course, I consider myself an Epicurean. |
| Zanan08-21-07, 02:56 PM | Going by 3(R)E stats alone, Malcanthet would be in with a shout. At least her CHA 44 beats most deities, even though the Queen of the Succubi is no "divine" beauty. |
| DarkSongKnight08-22-07, 12:42 AM | Hanali, however, has similar precepts. But, as said in Demihuman Deities, "The greatest joy is the rapture of newfound love and the tide of romance that sweeps up those wrapped up in its embrace. ... Always give shelter and succor to young lovers, for their hearts are the truest guides to life's proper course.." I added the emphasis, but that's one of the main reasons she seems shallow; their joy is in newfound love, not the fullness of it. While they perform marriage ceremonies, "Hanali's concern is love, not necessarily marriage." And, given the section of dogma, she's not overly concerned with long-lasting love... just the newness of it. Hmmm... So they're mostly a bunch of flighty flirts. I'm still tempted to think that anyone who devotes their life to actively promoting love isn't that shallow. I personally like the art aspect of her dogma. According to Dwarves Deep, the dwarves don't go in for arranged marriage; Sharindlar governs courtship and love, and her priests work, not just for those who love, but for unions that are likely to work, in the long term, and to build links between clans. Berronar's priests work to knit together families and encourage the growth and education of children. They are, unlike Hanali's priests, in it for the long haul. Actually, Hanali's priests do preside over rites of passage for young elves. Perhaps not as closely as Berronar for the dwarves, but they don't outright abandon them. "Hanali's priests are flighty and somewhat vain, given to dancing and wild celebrations." -Demihuman Deities, page 115 "Sunites are aesthetes and hedonists, who actively seek out pleasure and beauty in all things." -Faiths and Avatars, page 151 Yeah, both live the life of a party goer. I'm glad elves don't show their age as much. The effects of 50 years of celebrations and the like might begin to show on the human though. That, and human parties aren't as delicate as elven ones... (Milil gave rock and roll to you!) Milil is the Elvis of the Realms? :uh-huh: I would be more thorough, but I'm totally wiped right now, so I'll leave it at this... Many of the lay followers may be little more than flirts, but as for the clergy who take up Hanali's faith for the duration of their long lives (600+ years), I think there is more to them (and their goddess) than has been presented/highlighted. I like to think of them as optimists, who although wild, vain, and flighty, truly wish to encourage happiness, love, and beauty in a world that has seen much war and grief. Which is in itself a rather noble goal, if I say so myself. ;) Speaking of war, does anyone know the status of the temple of Hanali in Evereska? Is it mentioned any in the novels that covered the phaerimm's assault? And hedonists can be fun... :D Reminds me of my Goldheart's part-time profession. |
| DarkSongKnight08-22-07, 01:12 AM | Going by 3(R)E stats alone, Malcanthet would be in with a shout. At least her CHA 44 beats most deities, even though the Queen of the Succubi is no "divine" beauty. Aww... succubi are hardly fair. They get a +16 to their Charisma for crying out loud! :tantrum: Ha, another question. Does anyone know the divine stats for Hanali? For example, Sune is something along the lines of Sor 20/Bard 10/Cleric 10. What of Hanali? Yes, I know, deity stats are utterly useless and waste lots of space, but just out of curiosity. |
| Zanan08-22-07, 03:54 AM | Aww... succubi are hardly fair. They get a +16 to their Charisma for crying out loud! :tantrum: Ha, another question. Does anyone know the divine stats for Hanali? For example, Sune is something along the lines of Sor 20/Bard 10/Cleric 10. What of Hanali? Yes, I know, deity stats are utterly useless and waste lots of space, but just out of curiosity. Hanali, like any other FR deity, was statted in the Faiths & Avatars series, in her case, Demihuman Deities. Strictly speaking, it was only her avatar being statted though, as there were no deific stats in those days - and seeing that the aspects have been introduced instead of "real" stats, it looks as if WotC moves in that direction again. DD says that her avatar had the abilities of a Mage 33 / Cleric 30, with a CHA of 25. All AD&D though, and, for comparrison, Lolth's avatar was a Cleric 33 / Mage 31 / Fighter 20 with CHA 23. |
| The_Shaman08-22-07, 08:48 AM | Technically, would Shiallia be considered as a love- or fertility-related deity? Granted, she is not as widely recognized as Sune, but her role might be somewhat like Sharindlar's in some communities where she is worshipped. |
| Suin Bahhar08-22-07, 09:58 AM | I likes me some Beshaba. Gothchick beauty ^^ |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin08-22-07, 01:54 PM | Have you read Crucible: the Trial of Cyric the Mad? She's only in it a couple of times, but she really acts like an empty headed floozy. I would say that's a case of a novel misrepresenting a character. :) To see the depth of Sune, you need to read between the lines, and gloss over a few things. Which I shouldn't have to do. My solution would be "ignore what the novel says". I'm becoming ever more skilled at it. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin08-22-07, 02:00 PM | I'll still point out that I see nothing shallow in the above. I'm inclined to agree, and besides as pointed out both deities (Sune and Hanali) promote artwork.:) |
| DarkSongKnight08-22-07, 02:17 PM | Technically, would Shiallia be considered as a love- or fertility-related deity? Granted, she is not as widely recognized as Sune, but her role might be somewhat like Sharindlar's in some communities where she is worshipped. Shiallia does indeed welcome weddings at certain times of the year, and her followers make use of charm magic and encourage romance. So yes, she has some hand in love, though it is not as large an aspect of her portfolio as Sune's. |
| DarkSongKnight08-22-07, 02:18 PM | Double post :P |
| Zandilar08-22-07, 07:08 PM | Heya, I would say that's a case of a novel misrepresenting a character. :) *gasp* You don't say! :eek: :D :P *giggles* My solution would be "ignore what the novel says". I'm becoming ever more skilled at it. I think it's a skill I'm going to have to start honing a little more sharply... I mean, I've ignored the whole Shadow Weave thingy... But 4th Ed sounds like it's bringing some rather fundamental changes... |
| MarkHall08-22-07, 09:31 PM | Actually, Hanali's priests do preside over rites of passage for young elves. Perhaps not as closely as Berronar for the dwarves, but they don't outright abandon them. "Rights of Passage" are a far different from educating. A rite of passage would be a day or week-long event in human cultures... elves might stretch it out to a month or more. However, if the clergy of Hanali Cenali (goddess of young love and beauty) is overseeing these rites, I imagine that they're going to be a fair bit different than those overseen by Berronar Truesilver (goddess of marriage and familial loyalty). ;-) |
| Lord Karsus08-22-07, 11:58 PM | But 4th Ed sounds like it's bringing some rather fundamental changes... -When rules begin influencing and determining lore...Well, that's just not good...:nonono: |
| DarkSongKnight08-23-07, 01:55 AM | "Rights of Passage" are a far different from educating. A rite of passage would be a day or week-long event in human cultures... elves might stretch it out to a month or more. However, if the clergy of Hanali Cenali (goddess of young love and beauty) is overseeing these rites, I imagine that they're going to be a fair bit different than those overseen by Berronar Truesilver (goddess of marriage and familial loyalty). ;-) Makes me want to know the details of those "rights of passage." As for Hanali's 3.5 stats, I see her as an Enchanter/Bard/Sorcerer. Does that sound right to everyone? Suin, you do realize Beshaba can grow antlers? ;) Oh, I thought up a twist for the Hanalian Goldheart. The Hanalian Gold digger! Haha, get it? Goldheart, gold digger? I thought it was funny anywho... :heehee |
| MarkHall08-23-07, 02:06 AM | Hanali, in 2nd edition, was a Mage 33/ Cleric 30; Sune is two levels higher as a Mage. In terms of Avatar's stats, Hanali has on more point of Dex, one less point of Con, and two more points of intelligence and wisdom. Both, of course, have 25 Charismas. So, if we want to extrapolate her 3.x stats, we take a look at Sune. She's a Sorcerer 20/Bard 10/Cleric 10, with 24, 28, 25, 24, 35, 50. I'd be inclined to have Hanali, whose portfolio (not actions) favor Bard more, so perhaps a Bard 19/ Sorcerer 8/Cleric 10, with 24, 30, 23, 26, 37, 50? That's probably a bit high, since she's an intermediate to Sune's greater, but it's a guesstimate. |
| GothicDan08-23-07, 03:30 AM | Hm. Hanali's higher Wis and Int would actually promote the idea that she's less... vapid than Sune. Yes, I think I'm rather happy with considering her more of an Epicurean. I think, ultimately, it really requires a lot of honesty and perception to see reality for what it is and nothing more to accept the ultimately 'shallow' nature of existence. And note that Hanali's portfolio also includes Enchantment magic. I'm not sure I would trade in levels of Sorcerer for Bard for her Avatar. |
| Suin Bahhar08-23-07, 09:51 AM | Suin, you do realize Beshaba can grow antlers? ;) Lol. Yes. Succubi have horns too. Small deer stubs I have no problem with. Would a Sunite have an averse reaction to a set of beautiful antlers or a succubi with horns? I think not. Because horns are hot! |
| MarkHall08-23-07, 11:46 AM | Hm. Hanali's higher Wis and Int would actually promote the idea that she's less... vapid than Sune. Both of them have superhuman intelligences and wisdoms... I doubt either are vapid. I think, ultimately, it really requires a lot of honesty and perception to see reality for what it is and nothing more to accept the ultimately 'shallow' nature of existence. I disagree that reality is shallow. And note that Hanali's portfolio also includes Enchantment magic. I'm not sure I would trade in levels of Sorcerer for Bard for her Avatar. I tend to think that enforces it; Bards are heavily into enchantment magic in most things. |
| DarkSongKnight08-23-07, 01:47 PM | Sune also has a higher Con and lower Dex than Hanali, supporting the difference in their races. Sune would be more "busty" whereas Hanali would be a tad bit more graceful. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin08-23-07, 02:26 PM | I find it hard to believe that any greater deity of love, beauty and passion could ever be "vapid".:) |
| MarkusTay6308-23-07, 04:24 PM | I find it hard to believe that people have opinions concerning the 'Bimbo' goddesses. :P |
| GothicDan08-23-07, 07:39 PM | Honestly, in my own pantheons, I tend to separate their portfolios more like this: Deity 1: Beauty, hedonism, lust, jealousy, infatuation, sex, seduction, vanity. (Typically CN or so.) Deity 2: Love, affection, romance, compassion, and depending on the kind of deity I'm going for, I either add in things like mercy, healing, nurture, or liberty, individuality, dreams, creativity, and inspiration. (This tends to create more of a NG deity in the first place, and a CG one in the latter.) And I totally think reality is shallow, but that's because I consider physics (and by extension, all of science, including nature) to be shallow (it simply is), largely because I'm an atheist. |
| Xamo'das08-23-07, 08:49 PM | I would say that's a case of a novel misrepresenting a character. :) My solution would be "ignore what the novel says". I'm becoming ever more skilled at it. Actually, isn't it more a case of an unreliable narrator, since the entire book is told more or less from the perspective of Cyric's seraph of lies? |
| Zandilar08-23-07, 10:17 PM | Heya, Actually, isn't it more a case of an unreliable narrator, since the entire book is told more or less from the perspective of Cyric's seraph of lies? That's a good point. :) Malik might be cursed to always be truthful, but his truth is always going to be coloured by his perceptions. |
| MerrikCale08-24-07, 09:07 PM | I find it hard to believe that people have opinions concerning the 'Bimbo' goddesses. :P There ain't nothing wrong with bimbo goddesses |
| DarkSongKnight08-25-07, 03:50 PM | Deity 2: Love, affection, romance, compassion, and depending on the kind of deity I'm going for, I either add in things like mercy, healing, nurture, or liberty, individuality, dreams, creativity, and inspiration. (This tends to create more of a NG deity in the first place, and a CG one in the latter.) I'd totally go for the CG deity as described above. If I ever elected to play a human, he'd be a Lliiran. Perhaps I put too much of my real life self into my characters. But then again, I think that many players put a bit of themselves into each of their own characters. Anyone else have this habit? :D |
| GothicDan08-25-07, 07:18 PM | Everyone has the habit to a point, I think. It just varies. :) |
| Jax_Nightstalker08-25-07, 09:41 PM | Heya, While I do like Sune, I think they've misrepresented her. She is far too powerful a divine entity to simply be the empty headed, vain beauty that she appears to be. I think there's more to her, and I wish they'd give us even just a glimpse of her depth. I like Hanali too. She's one of my favorites in the Seldarine. (Tymora, Sharess, Mystra and Eilistraee are higher on my list of favorites, though. ;)) Powerful? Sune is one of the weakest Greater Powers and empty headed to boot. She reminds me of the Greek goddess of love and beauty. So no too Sune. Hanali is ok but I can't stand surface elves (sun elves are really on my hate list). Now Eilistraee is very pretty, but she is a goody too shoes. Lloth in her Drow form is very good looking to (I'm a hardcore Dark Elf fan). Tymora is to boyish looking, Sharess is ok, Mystra needs some sun because she is to pale. What about Isis? She is a goddess of Love in the Mulhorandi Pantheon. Sharindlar the dwarf goddess of Love? Sheela Peryroyl the halfling goddess of Love and Beauty? See Sune is not the only goddess of love and beauty around she is just more arrogant, vain, and stupid. :rolleyes: |
| GothicDan08-25-07, 10:24 PM | One of the weakest "GREATER POWERS" still makes her incredibly powerful. I'm really confused as to why people think beauty and pleasure automatically imply stupidity, vanity, and the like. I guess it's mostly a subject of modern Western society espousing such things. Anti-materialism and all. It's sad, really. I'm going to zone off imagining Sun Elven High Magi blowing up Drow cities in rains of holy radiance. ;) |
| DarkSongKnight08-25-07, 10:48 PM | Powerful? Sune is one of the weakest Greater Powers and empty headed to boot. She reminds me of the Greek goddess of love and beauty. So no too Sune. Hanali is ok but I can't stand surface elves (sun elves are really on my hate list). Now Eilistraee is very pretty, but she is a goody too shoes. Lloth in her Drow form is very good looking to (I'm a hardcore Dark Elf fan). Tymora is to boyish looking, Sharess is ok, Mystra needs some sun because she is to pale. What about Isis? She is a goddess of Love in the Mulhorandi Pantheon. Sharindlar the dwarf goddess of Love? Sheela Peryroyl the halfling goddess of Love and Beauty? See Sune is not the only goddess of love and beauty around she is just more arrogant, vain, and stupid. :rolleyes: I doubt any deity is truly "stupid." They all have superhuman senses and a depth that the most intelligent mortal would find baffling. Some may be more shallow compared to others, but when you're a deity, this isn't much of a hindrance. Sune has a 24 Int, 35 Wis, and 50 Cha. Stupid? I'm not so sure. Shallow compared to other deities? Perhaps. But then again, not much of a problem when any mortal who approaches you within 160 ft. explodes because of your "Divine Splendor." Sune isn't "powerful" as in Banite tyranny, but she is quite influential. Being influential has its pros and cons. Any deity with the portfolio of Love shouldn't be taken lightly. They may not have the divine power to destroy other deities, kingdoms and such with blades and arrows, but Love is a very dangerous thing. Very, very dangerous. Entire kingdoms have risen and fallen over it. Take Aphrodite and Paris, for example. Paris was offered three gifts from three goddesses. He, of course, chose to have the "most beautiful woman in the world." Which resulted in the destruction of Troy, etc., etc. A rather elementary example, but an effective one. ;) If Sune reminds you of Aphrodite, its probably because she was actually loosely based on her. Oh, and listing off perceived flaws of each goddess doesn't make them any less powerful or influential. :P Sune: Behold my beauty mortals! Know the Rapture of Firehair! Mortals: Oooooh! Ahhh! You're so preee-" *Poof* Sune: Oopps! I did it again! Awww... Its going to take forever to find a new hairdresser... *shrug* Sune: Oh well! I have forever, and more importantly, I'm still looking good! *beams* |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin08-30-07, 09:19 AM | Actually, isn't it more a case of an unreliable narrator, since the entire book is told more or less from the perspective of Cyric's seraph of lies? That could very well be the case. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin08-30-07, 09:20 AM | Powerful? Sune is one of the weakest Greater Powers and empty headed to boot. She reminds me of the Greek goddess of love and beauty. The Greek Goddess of love, Aphrodite, was among the most powerful of deities, because she could move the heart of anyone, and most (but not all) of the other gods. |
| Cthulhu08-30-07, 09:28 AM | Sune of Hanali? Huh. I'm...I'm...sure...uh... Sune: "Hello...I'm up here!" |