Divine Incongruities [Archive] - Wizards Community

Divine Incongruities [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zandilar
06-24-07, 08:53 AM Heya,

Was just playing a game of DnD tonight with my partner (who was DMing), and they were rather shocked when I pointed out that Chauntea (the deity my Ranger character worships) doesn't actually have fertility in her portfolio, even though Faiths and Pantheons practically mentions fertility every second sentance of her description.

In fact, there is only one deity (as far as I can recall) that actually has fertility in their portfolio at all (Shiallia), and even then it's very specific (woodland fertility).

Then there's Shar. Shar has the SDA Deny Shadow Weave, and yet she doesn't actually have the Shadow Weave in her portfolio.

I'm sure there's more of these kinds of things... Anyone know of any others? Or any thoughts on how to explain them? Or even why there are such incongruities to begin with?
Faraer
06-24-07, 10:15 AM Chauntea doesn't 'own' fertility as a whole; fertility of human-cultivated plants certainly (included in 'plants cultivated by humans'), but wild plant fertility shades into the domain of others like Silvanus and Shiallia, and animal fertility doesn't seem to be any one god's sole province (TSR's bashfulness has something to do with our lack of knowledge here).

More generally, I don't think those little portfolio lists should be used as anything more than a quick reference to what the god's about. Some people read too much into them.
GothicDan
06-24-07, 04:10 PM I agree with the idea that people seem to interpret portfolios too specifically. Many deities share many overlapped portfolios. The information under 'Portfolio,' I think, is more a generalization of what the common person in Faerun (or their chosen pantheon) most often associates with that deity, when the deity comes immediately to mind.

Since people know almost nothing about the Shadow Weave, there's no reason for her to officially hold that portfolio in Faerun.

As to Chauntea, I agree that she seems more about actual plantlife and the like, and the potential to create life, than actual fertility itself. She's Abeir-Toril incarnate, not the living creatures on it. Silvanus and Malar both personify such things. In the same token, Lathander is indirectly the god of verility (metaphor: sunlight being a life-creating energy), but he's not worshipped in such a fashion primarily among the Faerunian people.

I mean, Chauntea COULD be worshipped as such, and often is, but it seems like it's not done so exclusively that the peoples' opinions empower her with domain over that particular portfolio. Now, we've progressively seen her become more and more associated with tendencies of 'civilized' nature (compared to what she was during Netheril), so maybe in the future she COULD become a deity of fertility, as well. But I wouldn't be surprised if she never attained it, or a more minor demigod did (or Shialla's influence expanded).

I always picture the Faerunian pantheon as similar to those of Classical cultures, myself. With puissant local idiosyncrasies, and sort of fluid specifics surrounding a core archetype.
Dark Wizard
06-24-07, 09:46 PM I always picture the Faerunian pantheon as similar to those of Classical cultures, myself. With puissant local idiosyncrasies, and sort of fluid specifics surrounding a core archetype.

Quoted for agreement. View the Realms pantheons as most like the ancient Greek, Egyptian (heck, they actually are present) and Norse pantheons. You can virtually do no wrong if you do.

No doubt there exists sometimes conflicting variants of individual gods based on local culture. The more we learn about the Faerunian gods and the cultures that worship them, the more we see. For instance, a tendency by some in the Impiltur area to view the Triad as a more closely knit group, almost different facets of the same general concept. Heresies are another aspect of this, different esoteric sects and the like, all good stuff.
Bloodtide_the_Red
06-25-07, 01:35 AM As for Shar not having the Shadow Weave in her portfolio.....it's because it's a 'secret'. Remember most folks don't even know the Shadow Weave exists, and even most of thoes who do don't know about the connection to Shar. Now if Shar was know as the Goddess of the Shadow Weave, then everyone would know.
MarkusTay63
06-25-07, 02:18 AM The gods are what you make of them.

In the east, several Faerūnian gods are worshipped under different names and aspects, including Cyric (under the name Dhulvarisatta). His priest/monks even do good deeds! (to cover up their true intentions).

Akadi is known as Teylas, and is a MALE god of the sky and storms, while Grumbar is called Etugen, and is a FEMALE Earth-goddess.

I really don't think gods are all that picky about incidentals, as long as your sending 'worship' their way. ;)
Zandilar
06-25-07, 03:58 AM Heya,

As for Shar not having the Shadow Weave in her portfolio.....it's because it's a 'secret'. Remember most folks don't even know the Shadow Weave exists, and even most of thoes who do don't know about the connection to Shar. Now if Shar was know as the Goddess of the Shadow Weave, then everyone would know.

Having something in one's portfolio doesn't necessarily mean that it's something that's widely known. The way it stands, it could be snatched from her by any deity who decided they wanted it (and finding out about it wouldn't be so difficult - Shar has a weakness... her faithful!).

On the idea of Fertility and Chauntea... Fertility isn't a small thing or a minor detail. It's quite an oversight, IMHO, that there aren't any gods with it in their portfolio (aside from the very specific narrow focus of Shiallia) or actually specifically dedicated to it.
Meldread
06-25-07, 05:02 AM Stealing from Shar might be possible. Surviving the fallout might be more difficult. :P

However, I should point out that I do think that the Shadow Weave can be taken from Shar. I believe it is not in her portfolio because it is not a part of Shar in the same way the Weave is a part of Mystra. Shar likely saw the faults in the Weave (especially after the whole Karsus Avatar bit) and decided "Woah, woah... not gonna be that dumb." Of course, that is assuming that she created it and didn't find it.

There is always a possibility that the Shadow Weave really is the "space in between" the Weave, which would technically make the Shadow Weave part of the Weave. That would in turn give Mystra a huge advantage in claiming it for her own, and really she is the only deity that could get away with it.
Zandilar
06-25-07, 08:56 AM Heya,

Stealing from Shar might be possible. Surviving the fallout might be more difficult. :P

I would have to agree with you there. :) Shar is not known for her forgiving nature. :D

However, I should point out that I do think that the Shadow Weave can be taken from Shar. I believe it is not in her portfolio because it is not a part of Shar in the same way the Weave is a part of Mystra. Shar likely saw the faults in the Weave (especially after the whole Karsus Avatar bit) and decided "Woah, woah... not gonna be that dumb." Of course, that is assuming that she created it and didn't find it.

Hmm... I think she "discovered" the shadow of the weave, and experimented with it until she knew how to tap it rather than the Weave. I don't think she created it. I know there are people who would probably disagree with me.

Ed's compared the Shadow Weave and the Weave to the circulatory system - where the Weave is equivelant to the arteries, and the Shadow Weave is equivelant to the veins. Which says to me that one cannot exist without the other... And that implies that the Shadow Weave has always been there.

There is always a possibility that the Shadow Weave really is the "space in between" the Weave, which would technically make the Shadow Weave part of the Weave. That would in turn give Mystra a huge advantage in claiming it for her own, and really she is the only deity that could get away with it.

Ever since I saw the first Shadow Weave write up in the FRCS, I figured the designers were moving towards a True Neutral Mystra. I thought "'ello... they're going to have her absorb the Shadow Weave and she'll loose the last of her 'humanity' (aka her Goodness)"... In fact, I think this is even postulated somewhere in one of the earlier 3e sources - either FRCS, Faiths and Pantheons, or maybe Magic of Faerun - which is probably why I thought that. But I'm pleased that this doesn't seem to have happened - and there were no clear signs that is was going to happen until the new Super Module series starting with Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave. Maybe I'm just reading too much into them, though.

I sincerely hope they don't do it. My Realms has no Shadow Weave, and I don't think I could explain such a shift in Mystra's alignment/attitude without it. (Together with the Lady Penitent series (and DotU), it seems WotC is attacking two of my favorite Realms deities (Eilistraee and Mystra)... If one or the other turns out badly for my Ladies, I think I'll be heartbroken enough to drop the Realms all together... Which is a real shame as I honestly have only respect for Ed Greenwood and his work... Oh well... I'm not sure what I'll collect in its place if I do end up dropping the setting.)
XHereticX
06-25-07, 09:00 AM The gods are what you make of them.

In the east, several Faerūnian gods are worshipped under different names and aspects, including Cyric (under the name Dhulvarisatta). His priest/monks even do good deeds! (to cover up their true intentions).

Akadi is known as Teylas, and is a MALE god of the sky and storms, while Grumbar is called Etugen, and is a FEMALE Earth-goddess.

I really don't think gods are all that picky about incidentals, as long as your sending 'worship' their way. ;)

Gods have many different Aspects, reflecting different parts of their nature, so that is not suprising to me.

Well, I have always thought Shar created the Shadow Weave, but if not, I wonder who did...
MerrikCale
06-28-07, 11:19 PM As for Shar not having the Shadow Weave in her portfolio.....it's because it's a 'secret'.

Its like the worst secret ever, right behind David Hyde Pierce being gay
Zsych
06-29-07, 04:55 AM And yet she has the deny shadow weave as an SDA.

Personally, I don't think it should be a divine ability at all, with the SW being a construct that she created.

All aspects of your magical sword are controlled by you, and thats it.

... of course, the people who write the source books are only human.

---

As for chances of stealing the SW... possible I would think.

Mystra trying to absorb it... very risky. The kind of risk only a very stupid person would want to take.

Anyway, the SW isn't Ed's creation so his downplaying it should have lower priority than its own creator's words.
captaincarot
06-29-07, 05:04 AM And yet she has the deny shadow weave as an SDA.

Personally, I don't think it should be a divine ability at all, with the SW being a construct that she created.

i'm not too sure she did create it, but rather it was created from her by selunes actions.
Zsych
06-29-07, 06:19 AM Parts of both her and Selune went into creating Mystryl(who ended up a neutral diety)

Later, she analyzed Mystryl's Weave, and created her own(even though RotA says otherwise... but that's just human conjecture).
captaincarot
06-29-07, 10:26 AM Parts of both her and Selune went into creating Mystryl(who ended up a neutral diety)

Later, she analyzed Mystryl's Weave, and created her own(even though RotA says otherwise... but that's just human conjecture).

i always understood it as it being there as an integral part of the weave, just another side of it which was composed of the part torn from her when selune attacked her.
just later on she realised that the missing part could be accessed in a slightly different way, thus making ed's comment about veins and arteries and the whole thing start to make some semblance of sense.
Soltares
06-29-07, 10:42 AM just later on she realised that the missing part could be accessed in a slightly different way, thus making ed's comment about veins and arteries and the whole thing start to make some semblance of sense.

Ah, but if one uses the 'veins / arteries' analogy to describe the Weave / Shadow Weave, bear in mind that one brings blood to the cells of body, while the other takes it away.

The Weave brings magic pumping into Toril, and the mortal races. Does that mean that the Shadow Weaves sucks it out of Toril and the mortal races?

If so, where does the magic go, after the Shadow Weave has sucked it out of a place or person, leaving them colorless, lifeless and bereft of hope? Is Shar bloated like a tick at the center of her Shadow Weave, grown fat on the stolen hopes of the mortal races?
captaincarot
06-29-07, 10:50 AM If so, where does the magic go, ?

i tend to envision it as the weave makes it flow one way and the shadow sends it back to the start to go right back round again so somewhere in the middle of it has to be one really big earth node, the heart. now if only someone could find that and harness it.

Is Shar bloated like a tick at the center of her Shadow Weave, grown fat on the stolen hopes of the mortal races?

quite probably given the chance.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zandilar 06-24-07, 08:53 AM	Heya, Was just playing a game of DnD tonight with my partner (who was DMing), and they were rather shocked when I pointed out that Chauntea (the deity my Ranger character worships) doesn't actually have fertility in her portfolio, even though Faiths and Pantheons practically mentions fertility every second sentance of her description. In fact, there is only one deity (as far as I can recall) that actually has fertility in their portfolio at all (Shiallia), and even then it's very specific (woodland fertility). Then there's Shar. Shar has the SDA Deny Shadow Weave, and yet she doesn't actually have the Shadow Weave in her portfolio. I'm sure there's more of these kinds of things... Anyone know of any others? Or any thoughts on how to explain them? Or even why there are such incongruities to begin with?
Faraer 06-24-07, 10:15 AM	Chauntea doesn't 'own' fertility as a whole; fertility of human-cultivated plants certainly (included in 'plants cultivated by humans'), but wild plant fertility shades into the domain of others like Silvanus and Shiallia, and animal fertility doesn't seem to be any one god's sole province (TSR's bashfulness has something to do with our lack of knowledge here). More generally, I don't think those little portfolio lists should be used as anything more than a quick reference to what the god's about. Some people read too much into them.
GothicDan 06-24-07, 04:10 PM	I agree with the idea that people seem to interpret portfolios too specifically. Many deities share many overlapped portfolios. The information under 'Portfolio,' I think, is more a generalization of what the common person in Faerun (or their chosen pantheon) most often associates with that deity, when the deity comes immediately to mind. Since people know almost nothing about the Shadow Weave, there's no reason for her to officially hold that portfolio in Faerun. As to Chauntea, I agree that she seems more about actual plantlife and the like, and the potential to create life, than actual fertility itself. She's Abeir-Toril incarnate, not the living creatures on it. Silvanus and Malar both personify such things. In the same token, Lathander is indirectly the god of verility (metaphor: sunlight being a life-creating energy), but he's not worshipped in such a fashion primarily among the Faerunian people. I mean, Chauntea COULD be worshipped as such, and often is, but it seems like it's not done so exclusively that the peoples' opinions empower her with domain over that particular portfolio. Now, we've progressively seen her become more and more associated with tendencies of 'civilized' nature (compared to what she was during Netheril), so maybe in the future she COULD become a deity of fertility, as well. But I wouldn't be surprised if she never attained it, or a more minor demigod did (or Shialla's influence expanded). I always picture the Faerunian pantheon as similar to those of Classical cultures, myself. With puissant local idiosyncrasies, and sort of fluid specifics surrounding a core archetype.
Dark Wizard 06-24-07, 09:46 PM	I always picture the Faerunian pantheon as similar to those of Classical cultures, myself. With puissant local idiosyncrasies, and sort of fluid specifics surrounding a core archetype. Quoted for agreement. View the Realms pantheons as most like the ancient Greek, Egyptian (heck, they actually are present) and Norse pantheons. You can virtually do no wrong if you do. No doubt there exists sometimes conflicting variants of individual gods based on local culture. The more we learn about the Faerunian gods and the cultures that worship them, the more we see. For instance, a tendency by some in the Impiltur area to view the Triad as a more closely knit group, almost different facets of the same general concept. Heresies are another aspect of this, different esoteric sects and the like, all good stuff.
Bloodtide_the_Red 06-25-07, 01:35 AM	As for Shar not having the Shadow Weave in her portfolio.....it's because it's a 'secret'. Remember most folks don't even know the Shadow Weave exists, and even most of thoes who do don't know about the connection to Shar. Now if Shar was know as the Goddess of the Shadow Weave, then everyone would know.
MarkusTay63 06-25-07, 02:18 AM	The gods are what you make of them. In the east, several Faerūnian gods are worshipped under different names and aspects, including Cyric (under the name Dhulvarisatta). His priest/monks even do good deeds! (to cover up their true intentions). Akadi is known as Teylas, and is a MALE god of the sky and storms, while Grumbar is called Etugen, and is a FEMALE Earth-goddess. I really don't think gods are all that picky about incidentals, as long as your sending 'worship' their way. ;)
Zandilar 06-25-07, 03:58 AM	Heya, As for Shar not having the Shadow Weave in her portfolio.....it's because it's a 'secret'. Remember most folks don't even know the Shadow Weave exists, and even most of thoes who do don't know about the connection to Shar. Now if Shar was know as the Goddess of the Shadow Weave, then everyone would know. Having something in one's portfolio doesn't necessarily mean that it's something that's widely known. The way it stands, it could be snatched from her by any deity who decided they wanted it (and finding out about it wouldn't be so difficult - Shar has a weakness... her faithful!). On the idea of Fertility and Chauntea... Fertility isn't a small thing or a minor detail. It's quite an oversight, IMHO, that there aren't any gods with it in their portfolio (aside from the very specific narrow focus of Shiallia) or actually specifically dedicated to it.
Meldread 06-25-07, 05:02 AM	Stealing from Shar might be possible. Surviving the fallout might be more difficult. :P However, I should point out that I do think that the Shadow Weave can be taken from Shar. I believe it is not in her portfolio because it is not a part of Shar in the same way the Weave is a part of Mystra. Shar likely saw the faults in the Weave (especially after the whole Karsus Avatar bit) and decided "Woah, woah... not gonna be that dumb." Of course, that is assuming that she created it and didn't find it. There is always a possibility that the Shadow Weave really is the "space in between" the Weave, which would technically make the Shadow Weave part of the Weave. That would in turn give Mystra a huge advantage in claiming it for her own, and really she is the only deity that could get away with it.
Zandilar 06-25-07, 08:56 AM	Heya, Stealing from Shar might be possible. Surviving the fallout might be more difficult. :P I would have to agree with you there. :) Shar is not known for her forgiving nature. :D However, I should point out that I do think that the Shadow Weave can be taken from Shar. I believe it is not in her portfolio because it is not a part of Shar in the same way the Weave is a part of Mystra. Shar likely saw the faults in the Weave (especially after the whole Karsus Avatar bit) and decided "Woah, woah... not gonna be that dumb." Of course, that is assuming that she created it and didn't find it. Hmm... I think she "discovered" the shadow of the weave, and experimented with it until she knew how to tap it rather than the Weave. I don't think she created it. I know there are people who would probably disagree with me. Ed's compared the Shadow Weave and the Weave to the circulatory system - where the Weave is equivelant to the arteries, and the Shadow Weave is equivelant to the veins. Which says to me that one cannot exist without the other... And that implies that the Shadow Weave has always been there. There is always a possibility that the Shadow Weave really is the "space in between" the Weave, which would technically make the Shadow Weave part of the Weave. That would in turn give Mystra a huge advantage in claiming it for her own, and really she is the only deity that could get away with it. Ever since I saw the first Shadow Weave write up in the FRCS, I figured the designers were moving towards a True Neutral Mystra. I thought "'ello... they're going to have her absorb the Shadow Weave and she'll loose the last of her 'humanity' (aka her Goodness)"... In fact, I think this is even postulated somewhere in one of the earlier 3e sources - either FRCS, Faiths and Pantheons, or maybe Magic of Faerun - which is probably why I thought that. But I'm pleased that this doesn't seem to have happened - and there were no clear signs that is was going to happen until the new Super Module series starting with Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave. Maybe I'm just reading too much into them, though. I sincerely hope they don't do it. My Realms has no Shadow Weave, and I don't think I could explain such a shift in Mystra's alignment/attitude without it. (Together with the Lady Penitent series (and DotU), it seems WotC is attacking two of my favorite Realms deities (Eilistraee and Mystra)... If one or the other turns out badly for my Ladies, I think I'll be heartbroken enough to drop the Realms all together... Which is a real shame as I honestly have only respect for Ed Greenwood and his work... Oh well... I'm not sure what I'll collect in its place if I do end up dropping the setting.)
XHereticX 06-25-07, 09:00 AM	The gods are what you make of them. In the east, several Faerūnian gods are worshipped under different names and aspects, including Cyric (under the name Dhulvarisatta). His priest/monks even do good deeds! (to cover up their true intentions). Akadi is known as Teylas, and is a MALE god of the sky and storms, while Grumbar is called Etugen, and is a FEMALE Earth-goddess. I really don't think gods are all that picky about incidentals, as long as your sending 'worship' their way. ;) Gods have many different Aspects, reflecting different parts of their nature, so that is not suprising to me. Well, I have always thought Shar created the Shadow Weave, but if not, I wonder who did...
MerrikCale 06-28-07, 11:19 PM	As for Shar not having the Shadow Weave in her portfolio.....it's because it's a 'secret'. Its like the worst secret ever, right behind David Hyde Pierce being gay
Zsych 06-29-07, 04:55 AM	And yet she has the deny shadow weave as an SDA. Personally, I don't think it should be a divine ability at all, with the SW being a construct that she created. All aspects of your magical sword are controlled by you, and thats it. ... of course, the people who write the source books are only human. --- As for chances of stealing the SW... possible I would think. Mystra trying to absorb it... very risky. The kind of risk only a very stupid person would want to take. Anyway, the SW isn't Ed's creation so his downplaying it should have lower priority than its own creator's words.
captaincarot 06-29-07, 05:04 AM	And yet she has the deny shadow weave as an SDA. Personally, I don't think it should be a divine ability at all, with the SW being a construct that she created. i'm not too sure she did create it, but rather it was created from her by selunes actions.
Zsych 06-29-07, 06:19 AM	Parts of both her and Selune went into creating Mystryl(who ended up a neutral diety) Later, she analyzed Mystryl's Weave, and created her own(even though RotA says otherwise... but that's just human conjecture).
captaincarot 06-29-07, 10:26 AM	Parts of both her and Selune went into creating Mystryl(who ended up a neutral diety) Later, she analyzed Mystryl's Weave, and created her own(even though RotA says otherwise... but that's just human conjecture). i always understood it as it being there as an integral part of the weave, just another side of it which was composed of the part torn from her when selune attacked her. just later on she realised that the missing part could be accessed in a slightly different way, thus making ed's comment about veins and arteries and the whole thing start to make some semblance of sense.
Soltares 06-29-07, 10:42 AM	just later on she realised that the missing part could be accessed in a slightly different way, thus making ed's comment about veins and arteries and the whole thing start to make some semblance of sense. Ah, but if one uses the 'veins / arteries' analogy to describe the Weave / Shadow Weave, bear in mind that one brings blood to the cells of body, while the other takes it away. The Weave brings magic pumping into Toril, and the mortal races. Does that mean that the Shadow Weaves sucks it out of Toril and the mortal races? If so, where does the magic go, after the Shadow Weave has sucked it out of a place or person, leaving them colorless, lifeless and bereft of hope? Is Shar bloated like a tick at the center of her Shadow Weave, grown fat on the stolen hopes of the mortal races?
captaincarot 06-29-07, 10:50 AM	If so, where does the magic go, ? i tend to envision it as the weave makes it flow one way and the shadow sends it back to the start to go right back round again so somewhere in the middle of it has to be one really big earth node, the heart. now if only someone could find that and harness it. Is Shar bloated like a tick at the center of her Shadow Weave, grown fat on the stolen hopes of the mortal races? quite probably given the chance.