Early worship of Mystryl [Archive] - Wizards Community

Early worship of Mystryl [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
boards
10-19-07, 11:22 PM As far a creation myths go the battle between Shar and Selune created Mystryl. Frow what we have seen the first sentient life on Toril capable of wielding magic as spells not from other gods were the Saruhk, who worshipped the Great Serpent not Mystryl. Later much later come dragons, then elves neither of whom seem to have worshipped her. Later the humans of Imaskar and Calimsham come along. The Imaskari worshipped no gods, and I dont think Calim and his geni followers ever worshipped her, so was Netheril the first time that Mystryl was actively worshipped with priests and all.:confused:
ripvanwormer
10-20-07, 02:25 PM Mystryl might have been known by other names in other pantheons (for example, the dragons might have called her Kereska), but it's probably safe to say that Netheril was the first major magocracy to worship her.

As for the creation myth, it might be just that: a myth. Perhaps Mystryl isn't "really" as old as the Netherese believed her to be. Or perhaps their belief made it true after the fact.
GothicDan
10-20-07, 05:25 PM The Elves have paid some homage to Mystra for thousands of years, some more or less than others.

But remember, even if no one worshiped her on a mass, organized scale until the fall of the Creator Races, it also doesn't mean she wasn't necessarily the true first deity of the Weave/magic in Realmspace, either.

While I do tend to err on the "myth" side of things, so far from what Ed's said, I would consider, at the very least, Shar, Selune, Mystra, and Chauntea to be about as close to having definite divine origins as per the referenced myth, as is possible.

Though note that originally Ed had Lurue as the embodiment of the Weave.
Gray Richardson
10-25-07, 02:02 AM It is possible that Mystryl was known as Lurue by the Fey creator race. Or, more probably, the Netherese came to worship Lurue in a human guise under the name of Mystryl. Over time, these separate imaginings fragmented her into two distinct gods. As the Fey retreated into Faerie, and Lurue came to be worshiped by humans in the North, Lurue entered the human pantheon as a distinct goddess. Since gods in the same pantheon cannot have the same portfolios, Lurue only retained her portfolios involving magical creatures.

Other races probably knew Mystryl by other names and conceptions. Before the Batrachi converted to the monotheistic worship of Ramenos (himself a fragment of the World Serpent) there are references (see The Sea of Fallen Stars sourcebook) to a large aquatic pantheon called the Great School, which may still have some currency somewhere beneath the waves. It is possible that Mystryl (or Lurue) had an aquatic aspect within that pantheon. Perhaps they envisioned her as a hippocampus (with a horn) or a narwhal. ;)

Speaking of the Sarrukh, while the Sarrukh were certainly monotheists (at least at first) it is conceivable that they knew of Mystryl. Perhaps M'Daess was the Sarrukh conception of Mystryl. Or perhaps the World Serpent is a gestalt deity, a fusion (the opposite of fragmentation) of all the gods into a single persona. Similar to the Adama of the Shining South. If so, the Sarrukh concept of magic and the weave could be sublimated within the persona of the World Serpent itself. Alternatively, the Sarrukh could have been aware of Mystryl, but simply chose not to worship her.

Likewise I think it probable that the Imaskari were aware of Mystryl but chose not to venerate her, as they took great pride in refusing to bow down before any god. Yet, even so, there were probably fringe groups and individuals among the Imaskari who chose to worship Mystryl. I think you can bet that the Imaskari, though largely atheistic as a culture, contained all sorts of groups and/or cults who venerated a great many gods and entities. Perhaps Hilather (aka Halaster) was aware of and/or serving Mystryl in some fashion back in his Imaskari days.

And I agree with Rip that it is likely the Dragons worshiped Mystryl in a draconic guise under the name of Kereska. There are enough similarities between Kereska (what little we know of her) and Mystryl or Mystra to suggest that Kereska could have been Mystryl's draconic aspect or alias.

The FRCS tells us that the Faerūnian creation myth is echoed in so many different religions that it has come to be accepted as fact. If that is so, then Mystryl (or some aspect of her) has been around since the very early universe, and likely she has been worshiped, or at least known, to most cultures that have practiced magic across the face of Toril.
Zsych
10-25-07, 03:23 AM Personally, early Shar, Selune and Mystryl don't strike me as gods that should need worship.
boards
10-25-07, 09:29 AM cheers guys
MarkusTay63
10-25-07, 03:14 PM I'd have to go with Gray on this one, at least in part. Mystryl does not seem to have been a cold, calculating diety one could expect from the primordial Creator races, except for the Fey. Since I personally feel the Fey actually came FIRST amongst the Creators, then Mystryl was an embodiment of their magic first. I can picture her as a Fey, but not as a Sauroid. ;)
Gray Richardson
10-30-07, 01:14 AM The Sarrukh were just the first to rise to greatness, all the creator races had been around for a long while before that. Other races may have been around as well, native races that were neither interlopers, nor mighty enough to earn the "creator race" monicker doled out by elven historians. Unrecorded civilizations from before the advent of written history might have ruled Faerūn in the prehistoric time before the Sarrukh.

My personal guess is that the Batrachi are actually the oldest race, or at least, their octopoid forebears who lived in Toril's oceans--before Ramenos converted them to his faith and led them in a racial transformation into frogmen who could walk on land and conquer the surface.

My guess is that in their earliest conceptions, Mystryl looked like a beautiful, luminescent jellyfish glowing with silver fire. And Selūne might have been venerated as a glowing anemone, or maybe a massive cloud of sparkling, bioluminescent krill, or the collective flashes of reflected moonlight glinting off the scales of a school of fish. Perhaps Shar was thought of as a killer squid that lurks in a shadowy cloud of ink, grasping at curious prey from within.

Ed Greenwood has said that learned scholars of Toril believe that Toril is about 70,000 years old (give or take). Ed didn't say those scholars were right, he just said that is what they believe. You could take that either of two ways. Either Toril evolved naturally as a planet, and is actually billions of years old, like Earth, and the scholars are simply ignorant of the true origin of their world. Or alternatively, as a magical world in a magical universe that was created by real and living gods, the scholars may be accurate, and Toril's universe may well have been created by Ao some 70,000 years ago.

Either way you go, it is conceivable that many different primitive races could have worshiped Mystryl (the embodiment of the Weave, and the personification of magic) by many names and by many faces--faces which looked similar to their own kind.

70,000 years is a long time. You could have seen many races rise and fall before the Sarrukh came to power. In my campaign, the yeti which you see in the North, and all along the spine of the world mountains, and far into the East of Kara-Tur, are remnants of a degenerate race, fallen from th height of their greatness some 40,000 years ago, done in by the the warming of Faerūn at the end of the Ice Age, they turned to barbarism, lost all vestiges of their civilization, and are forgotten to history and even themselves.

There were likely other races that were mighty before the Sarrukh. The Sarrukh are merely the first to be recorded in the historical record.
Suin Bahhar
11-02-07, 09:51 AM So the weave could have been created somewhere before 30,000, allowing Mystryl greater control after ages long of guises of magicgods for differing races. Very interesting.
captaincarot
11-04-07, 08:09 AM how come just because humans were the last to rise to greatness do people presume they didn't exist before they are recorded.
They could have been around for milenia living as small isolated tribes with the odd tribal shaman that worshiped frognoka the early but totally lost from history name of the goddess of magic.
It's only when the race rose to become noticed that it was recorded that they worshiped mystryl she could have had 2000 names in 20000 different small tribes in the milenia before one made it.
Zsych
11-11-07, 07:42 PM With the realms being the Forgotten Realms(forgotten by humans of earth), I'd say there's a better chance that humans just got stranded there by some old portals.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
boards 10-19-07, 11:22 PM	As far a creation myths go the battle between Shar and Selune created Mystryl. Frow what we have seen the first sentient life on Toril capable of wielding magic as spells not from other gods were the Saruhk, who worshipped the Great Serpent not Mystryl. Later much later come dragons, then elves neither of whom seem to have worshipped her. Later the humans of Imaskar and Calimsham come along. The Imaskari worshipped no gods, and I dont think Calim and his geni followers ever worshipped her, so was Netheril the first time that Mystryl was actively worshipped with priests and all.:confused:
ripvanwormer 10-20-07, 02:25 PM	Mystryl might have been known by other names in other pantheons (for example, the dragons might have called her Kereska), but it's probably safe to say that Netheril was the first major magocracy to worship her. As for the creation myth, it might be just that: a myth. Perhaps Mystryl isn't "really" as old as the Netherese believed her to be. Or perhaps their belief made it true after the fact.
GothicDan 10-20-07, 05:25 PM	The Elves have paid some homage to Mystra for thousands of years, some more or less than others. But remember, even if no one worshiped her on a mass, organized scale until the fall of the Creator Races, it also doesn't mean she wasn't necessarily the true first deity of the Weave/magic in Realmspace, either. While I do tend to err on the "myth" side of things, so far from what Ed's said, I would consider, at the very least, Shar, Selune, Mystra, and Chauntea to be about as close to having definite divine origins as per the referenced myth, as is possible. Though note that originally Ed had Lurue as the embodiment of the Weave.
Gray Richardson 10-25-07, 02:02 AM	It is possible that Mystryl was known as Lurue by the Fey creator race. Or, more probably, the Netherese came to worship Lurue in a human guise under the name of Mystryl. Over time, these separate imaginings fragmented her into two distinct gods. As the Fey retreated into Faerie, and Lurue came to be worshiped by humans in the North, Lurue entered the human pantheon as a distinct goddess. Since gods in the same pantheon cannot have the same portfolios, Lurue only retained her portfolios involving magical creatures. Other races probably knew Mystryl by other names and conceptions. Before the Batrachi converted to the monotheistic worship of Ramenos (himself a fragment of the World Serpent) there are references (see The Sea of Fallen Stars sourcebook) to a large aquatic pantheon called the Great School, which may still have some currency somewhere beneath the waves. It is possible that Mystryl (or Lurue) had an aquatic aspect within that pantheon. Perhaps they envisioned her as a hippocampus (with a horn) or a narwhal. ;) Speaking of the Sarrukh, while the Sarrukh were certainly monotheists (at least at first) it is conceivable that they knew of Mystryl. Perhaps M'Daess was the Sarrukh conception of Mystryl. Or perhaps the World Serpent is a gestalt deity, a fusion (the opposite of fragmentation) of all the gods into a single persona. Similar to the Adama of the Shining South. If so, the Sarrukh concept of magic and the weave could be sublimated within the persona of the World Serpent itself. Alternatively, the Sarrukh could have been aware of Mystryl, but simply chose not to worship her. Likewise I think it probable that the Imaskari were aware of Mystryl but chose not to venerate her, as they took great pride in refusing to bow down before any god. Yet, even so, there were probably fringe groups and individuals among the Imaskari who chose to worship Mystryl. I think you can bet that the Imaskari, though largely atheistic as a culture, contained all sorts of groups and/or cults who venerated a great many gods and entities. Perhaps Hilather (aka Halaster) was aware of and/or serving Mystryl in some fashion back in his Imaskari days. And I agree with Rip that it is likely the Dragons worshiped Mystryl in a draconic guise under the name of Kereska. There are enough similarities between Kereska (what little we know of her) and Mystryl or Mystra to suggest that Kereska could have been Mystryl's draconic aspect or alias. The FRCS tells us that the Faerūnian creation myth is echoed in so many different religions that it has come to be accepted as fact. If that is so, then Mystryl (or some aspect of her) has been around since the very early universe, and likely she has been worshiped, or at least known, to most cultures that have practiced magic across the face of Toril.
Zsych 10-25-07, 03:23 AM	Personally, early Shar, Selune and Mystryl don't strike me as gods that should need worship.
boards 10-25-07, 09:29 AM	cheers guys
MarkusTay63 10-25-07, 03:14 PM	I'd have to go with Gray on this one, at least in part. Mystryl does not seem to have been a cold, calculating diety one could expect from the primordial Creator races, except for the Fey. Since I personally feel the Fey actually came FIRST amongst the Creators, then Mystryl was an embodiment of their magic first. I can picture her as a Fey, but not as a Sauroid. ;)
Gray Richardson 10-30-07, 01:14 AM	The Sarrukh were just the first to rise to greatness, all the creator races had been around for a long while before that. Other races may have been around as well, native races that were neither interlopers, nor mighty enough to earn the "creator race" monicker doled out by elven historians. Unrecorded civilizations from before the advent of written history might have ruled Faerūn in the prehistoric time before the Sarrukh. My personal guess is that the Batrachi are actually the oldest race, or at least, their octopoid forebears who lived in Toril's oceans--before Ramenos converted them to his faith and led them in a racial transformation into frogmen who could walk on land and conquer the surface. My guess is that in their earliest conceptions, Mystryl looked like a beautiful, luminescent jellyfish glowing with silver fire. And Selūne might have been venerated as a glowing anemone, or maybe a massive cloud of sparkling, bioluminescent krill, or the collective flashes of reflected moonlight glinting off the scales of a school of fish. Perhaps Shar was thought of as a killer squid that lurks in a shadowy cloud of ink, grasping at curious prey from within. Ed Greenwood has said that learned scholars of Toril believe that Toril is about 70,000 years old (give or take). Ed didn't say those scholars were right, he just said that is what they believe. You could take that either of two ways. Either Toril evolved naturally as a planet, and is actually billions of years old, like Earth, and the scholars are simply ignorant of the true origin of their world. Or alternatively, as a magical world in a magical universe that was created by real and living gods, the scholars may be accurate, and Toril's universe may well have been created by Ao some 70,000 years ago. Either way you go, it is conceivable that many different primitive races could have worshiped Mystryl (the embodiment of the Weave, and the personification of magic) by many names and by many faces--faces which looked similar to their own kind. 70,000 years is a long time. You could have seen many races rise and fall before the Sarrukh came to power. In my campaign, the yeti which you see in the North, and all along the spine of the world mountains, and far into the East of Kara-Tur, are remnants of a degenerate race, fallen from th height of their greatness some 40,000 years ago, done in by the the warming of Faerūn at the end of the Ice Age, they turned to barbarism, lost all vestiges of their civilization, and are forgotten to history and even themselves. There were likely other races that were mighty before the Sarrukh. The Sarrukh are merely the first to be recorded in the historical record.
Suin Bahhar 11-02-07, 09:51 AM	So the weave could have been created somewhere before 30,000, allowing Mystryl greater control after ages long of guises of magicgods for differing races. Very interesting.
captaincarot 11-04-07, 08:09 AM	how come just because humans were the last to rise to greatness do people presume they didn't exist before they are recorded. They could have been around for milenia living as small isolated tribes with the odd tribal shaman that worshiped frognoka the early but totally lost from history name of the goddess of magic. It's only when the race rose to become noticed that it was recorded that they worshiped mystryl she could have had 2000 names in 20000 different small tribes in the milenia before one made it.
Zsych 11-11-07, 07:42 PM	With the realms being the Forgotten Realms(forgotten by humans of earth), I'd say there's a better chance that humans just got stranded there by some old portals.