| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Duedaine08-29-07, 12:45 PM | I do not understand why she is so female oriented. First of all, it probably pushes a lot of the males to the worship of Vhaerun. Secondly, isn't that the sort of thing that the drow are trying to escape from? |
| Jagaer08-29-07, 04:04 PM | Perhaps she is more like her mother than she thinks she is. :devil: |
| Suin Bahhar08-29-07, 05:04 PM | Elves in general have a lot of matriarchy based or female politics. This is only just beginning to appear in real life. Female politicians are still very rare even in western countries. This will make you feel uneasy when confronted by an oppressing female powerstucture bent on retaining that power and its previliges. These female Eilistraeans hold on to the powers they get invested by a divine female being. Logically they distrust males beginning in her teachings. Eilistraean moondancer clerics. Looking very hot AND wielding divine and political power is OK in my book. |
| Zandilar08-29-07, 07:24 PM | Heya, I do not understand why she is so female oriented. First of all, it probably pushes a lot of the males to the worship of Vhaerun. Secondly, isn't that the sort of thing that the drow are trying to escape from? Well depending on who you listen to... The fact that the gender bias isn't mentioned in Faiths and Pantheons means it's effectively gone away. Males are now fully accepted into the clergy. (Some people appear to have interpreted the lack of mention as absence. I don't agree.) Or Eilistraee has started to accept males into her clergy in small numbers. However, these males are expected/required to spend time in female form. The duration of these periods increases the higher in level the male gets in the clergy. (Ed Greenwood, in a post on Candlekeep - this is just a paraphrase of what he wrote on the issue, and may not completely reflect what he was getting at.) Or You can ignore both of the above and still have the gender bias, since nothing in 3rd Edition's Faiths and Pantheons contradicts the 2nd Edition's Demihuman Deities. Eilistraee is a little like the ancient Roman goddess Diana (or the Greek Artemis), both of which had very strong cults that were made up only of women. (Obviously this isn't the solution you're looking for. ;)) |
| Yanagita Kunio08-29-07, 07:25 PM | Active recruitment of males into converts and positions in her clergy amounts to Eilistraee opening up a second front versus her brother Vhaeraun, who has pretty much claimed "drow men" as his portfolio. It makes sense that she'd accept them as worshippers when they come around by themselves, but not set herself up for a conflict by pursuing them actively and flaunting them via high placement in her faith. Considering that she's already warring with Lolth over the fundamental nature of feminity in drow society--a massive, pivotal, ideological conflict, given the way the Lolth has structured drow society to fit her wants--I see not pursuing males as a matter of picking your battles. Part of me also thinks that she doesn't want to "take" something from her brother and thus totally estrange him, as she hoping that he will come more to her way of thinking, and end up a more benevolent embodiment of drow masculinity (and thus her complement).... Maybe things (ie her church structure) will change following the most recent novel-based developments.... |
| MarkusTay6308-29-07, 08:16 PM | I said this in another thread, and I'll say it again here - It's not Eilistraee thats biased, it's her clergy. She has no problem with male worshippers or even a male priest, but try finding a church to practice your beliefs in... :rolleyes: |
| Xaean08-29-07, 09:00 PM | Yes, that makes a lot of sense to me - drow were always a matriarchic society and even a radical change of alignment doesn't negate a character's cultural background - drow are just not used to male clerics, so much that they wouldn't even consider this option. Eilistreae's female clerics wouldn't treat males the same way Lolth's clerics do, they may well respect their skills as wizards and fighters, but it's still difficult for them to accept a male as a member of the clergy - this may change in some time, but elves take the long view, so it will likely need a few more centuries... |
| Old Sage08-29-07, 09:07 PM | Ed's had plenty to say on the subject of male worshippers of Eilistraee. Take a look at his compiled replies [in the '06 file] at Candlekeep. |
| Zanan08-30-07, 04:28 AM | Well, you should actually turn the question on its head. We have about what, 200 faiths within Faerūn, of which about a handful has a gender restriction? If you think that is too much - even though she is probably one favourite deities of yours - think again. It is not even uncommon in the real world and the cult the Dark Maiden is probably styled upon, i.e. the Roman goddess Diana, is female clergy only too. It was not her choice that she became the only "good" drow deity when the Banishment and the Descent happened, for at the former's time, all elven deities belonged to one pantheon, not two. Of course, and no insult intended, it is not always easy for a male player to play a female character, right? Though there are obviously more choices for male (half-/drow) clerics working closely with the Eilistraeens, e.g. cultists of Selūne. (Even though, by default, there aren't any drow clerics of a human deity possible. Then again, Shar and Mask already have some.) PS: Next time, count till ten before deciding on a header for the topic. I can't see this one being online for much longer. |
| Zandilar08-30-07, 07:46 AM | Heya, We have about what, 200 faiths within Faerūn, of which about a handful has a gender restriction? If you think that is too much - even though she is probably one favourite deities of yours - think again. It is not even uncommon in the real world and the cult the Dark Maiden is probably styled upon, i.e. the Roman goddess Diana, is female clergy only too. A handful with a bias, but only two with actual restrictions. Sune's clergy is dominated by women, but her faith has males amongst the clergy too - just for example. (The bias goes both ways, some deities' clergy have significantly more males than females - Tempus springs to mind for some reason.) Only Lolth and Eilistraee have (had in the latter's case *grumble*) actual restrictions. PS: Next time, count till ten before deciding on a header for the topic. I can't see this one being online for much longer. Yes, the OP could have come up with a better title. ;) |
| GothicDan08-30-07, 12:47 PM | For how many centuries was it illegal (and still is) for females to hold clerical rank among monotheistic religions, anyway? Such religious dogmas hold even in our 'modern' age of egalitarianism (so egalitarian in fact that I think we're going backwards in some ways). |
| Lord Karsus08-30-07, 06:03 PM | -With the recent events of Sacrifice of the Widow, and Eilistraee recieving Vhaeraun's male worshippers, under the guise of 'The Masked Lady', some of the gender inequality seems to have straightened itself out. -I like the title, by the way. It shows passion! ;) |
| Zandilar08-30-07, 07:22 PM | Heya, -With the recent events of Sacrifice of the Widow, and Eilistraee recieving Vhaeraun's male worshippers, under the guise of 'The Masked Lady', some of the gender inequality seems to have straightened itself out. -I like the title, by the way. It shows passion! ;) It's very frustrating, I so want to read that novel (Sacrifice of the Widow) but I can't get my hands on it... It's not at my F(not so)LGS, it's not at any of my local bookshops (and they have other recent WotC books, so I don't know what gives). I'm going to try the store I buy my comics from (which also sells gaming stuff), but I am not hopeful. I really think I'm going to have to order it from Amazon. But that would make sense, if she has indeed absorbed Vhaeraun. Lets hope she starts straightening them out too (ie: slowly making sure they start moving towards good, and not remaining evil... I'd really be upset if Eilistraee went Neutral instead. :() |
| Lord Karsus08-30-07, 09:23 PM | I really think I'm going to have to order it from Amazon. -Might as well. I'd really be upset if Eilistraee went Neutral instead. :() --Well, so far, I've only read the prologue, and the last page (I couldn't help it!). Eilistraee, based on what I've read, seems to be changing. Who knows, though, if that will effect her actual alignment, though. |
| MerrikCale08-30-07, 09:25 PM | i generally like Lisa Smedman's writing |
| SmartPaladin08-30-07, 09:48 PM | Well, if things go a bit more to pot for Drow men, there's always Mystra for the wizards, Selūne for those wishing to dance under the moon and stars... And Hoar for the Drow males that want payback! :devil: Seriously... After WotSQ and The Lady Penitent, I don't see why not Drow males go off and fallow Hoar. A human god, yes, but not only is Hoar a male but Kiaransalee, who's female, is MIA I think. So come Drow, come and join your Half Elven (why wouldn't Half Elves join the faith of Hoar?) brothers in the faith of Hoar. Join them and give Hoar the strength to tell Shar to go **** herself, and give Tyr the finger. Telling him that he, Hoar, is his own man. On a side note, I was fine with Eilistraee in the beginning. She wasn't that bad a Goddess in Elaine Cunningham's Starlight and Shadows. Though in the last book, Windwalker, I wanted to backhand that one Drow Priestess who jumped down Liriel's throat for showing Lolth where their temple was. Like Liriel knew it would happen... Nevermind the fact that afterward, they didn't even really want to help Liriel and Fyodor. |
| DarkSongKnight08-31-07, 12:49 AM | Its my opinion that Eilistraee herself isn't prejudiced towards males, merely her clergy. Many of these drow come from a Lolthite society, so it only makes sense that females are still the leaders. Having drow change from evil to good is a drastic step already, without having their entire society reversed on them. Can you imagine trying to convince a Lolthite priestess to abandon her supposedly "evil" ways to convert to the worship of Eilistraee? She'd be leaving behind power, wealth, and a high ranking position in society. And for what? "A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow." Oh yeah, that also includes a right to dance naked in the moonlight. Sounds promising, doesn't it?! Add onto that, the female's loss of power over "lowly" males... I don't like the prejudice towards males, but I think its slowly beginning to change. I can only hope Eilistraee will do well in her battle with Lolth that is to come, as she means a lot to me. I actually became aware of the Realms because of her. |
| Sosthenes08-31-07, 10:31 AM | Yes, that makes a lot of sense to me - drow were always a matriarchic society and even a radical change of alignment doesn't negate a character's cultural background - drow are just not used to male clerics, so much that they wouldn't even consider this option. I think this really is close to the truth. Eilistraee wants to redeem the Drow, i.e. turn them from bad to good. The introduction of an egalitarian, pacifistic society isn't on the schedule. Even gods probably are influenced by their respective cultural background -- in some views even more so (i.e. if believers really have a high influence on the thoughts and ways of their deities). What I've read seems to imply that birth doesn't play a high role anymore, although that largely comes with size. If there'd be a big Eilistraeean city, we might get aristocrats back on the map... So maybe she doesn't even think about that, maybe she wants to concentrate on the societal changes once the major success is there. Interestingly, being more egalitarian might actually be a requirement for this success. Well, let's see how things end up in a few months. The current novels are changing the Drow world-view in a rather large way. Although I don't have my hopes up to high, the War of the Spider Queen series showed that reverting back to the Status Quo in the very last minute is always possible. |
| Zanan08-31-07, 11:51 AM | Heya, A handful with a bias, but only two with actual restrictions. Sune's clergy is dominated by women, but her faith has males amongst the clergy too - just for example. (The bias goes both ways, some deities' clergy have significantly more males than females - Tempus springs to mind for some reason.) Only Lolth and Eilistraee have (had in the latter's case *grumble*) actual restrictions. Not exactly. Interestingly enough, Lolth's faiths was female and male in AD&D, but was changed in 3E (definitely). Eilistraee's was open only to females (of all races, BTW) and has been left untouched of gender-restrictions in 3E (though we have discussed this a few times). Kiaransalee's clergy is strictly female (DD), while Vhaeraun's is essentially male, DD speaks of more than 99%, which gives you an indication of his version of "gender-equality". The only females in his faiths are the less than a handful of Masked Traitors. Loviatar is nigh female only too and if I go deeper into it, I guess I'll find a number of other faiths as well (Haela Birghtaxe?). |
| Bonzai08-31-07, 11:52 AM | Hmm... kinda makes you wonder how they are going to shake things up for 4th edition. The way things are going, there is going to be only one Drow diety left in the Patheon. My money's on Loth. Perhaps Elistrea may ascend to the Elven Patheon. Perhaps she will die as well, but in such a way that will allow certian drow to be redeemed (I.E. A male drow who redeams himself could worship Correlion, and be welcomed by him in the afterlife). Just a thought. Remember, the more they mess with things, the more new books they can sell. |
| Sosthenes08-31-07, 12:10 PM | And we already bought the lowly-thief-becoming-mighty-god stuff once. Let's hope for the ascendancy of Jarlaxle... |
| Miryana08-31-07, 01:23 PM | A handful with a bias, but only two with actual restrictions. Sune's clergy is dominated by women, but her faith has males amongst the clergy too - just for example. (The bias goes both ways, some deities' clergy have significantly more males than females - Tempus springs to mind for some reason.) IIRC, the novel Finder's Bane included a priestess of Bane that the main character talked into abandoning a remnant of her dead god. His argument was that even if she helped resurrect him she couldn't expect to rise high in that faith because she was a woman. In the sequel the priestess had turned to Beshaba because her clergy was mostly female. I think those were examples of influential biases more than actual restrictions. |
| Zandilar08-31-07, 08:09 PM | Heya, Not exactly. Interestingly enough, Lolth's faiths was female and male in AD&D, but was changed in 3E (definitely). Eilistraee's was open only to females (of all races, BTW) and has been left untouched of gender-restrictions in 3E (though we have discussed this a few times). Kiaransalee's clergy is strictly female (DD), while Vhaeraun's is essentially male, DD speaks of more than 99%, which gives you an indication of his version of "gender-equality". The only females in his faiths are the less than a handful of Masked Traitors. Loviatar is nigh female only too and if I go deeper into it, I guess I'll find a number of other faiths as well (Haela Birghtaxe?). The Drow pantheon really does seem to be the biggest exception, but such biases exist in amongst the non-drow deities too. Here are comparisons between Demihuman Deities and Faiths and Pantheons for the Drow Pantheon. Of Vhaeraun... Demihuman Deities says Vhaeraun's clergy is 99% male. According to Faiths and Pantheons, Vhaeraun's clergy is "nearly exclusively male". Of Kiaransalee... Demihuman Deities says her clergy is exclusively female. Unless I missed something, Faiths and Pantheons makes no mention of gender restrictions. (Thus if you're following the same reasoning some people apply to Eilistraee, she now accepts clergy of both genders.) Of Selvatarm... Had a strong bias towards males (70% male), but no restrictions. Faiths and Pantheons makes no mention of gender restrictions. Of Ghaunadaur... Demihuman Deities says his clergy is 95% male. Faiths and Pantheons makes no mention of this. And just for fun, here's Loviatar, Sune, and Haela Brightaxe. Of Haela Brightaxe... the gender mix of Haela's clergy is 85% female, 15% male. Faiths and Pantheons mentions that female clerics vastly out number male in her clergy. Of Loviatar... Faiths and Avatars says that Loviatar's clergy is dominated by women, but makes no mention of by how much. Faiths and Pantheons says much the same thing. Of Sune... Faiths and Avatars says that women in Sune's clergy outnumber males 8 to 1, "but men are all the more highly valued for their rarity." Faiths and Pantheons mentions that because of Sune's embracing of Adventurers, the ratio of female to males has been reduced to 4 to 1. (That's just in the short time between the Game Year for Faiths and Avatars, and the Game Year of Faiths and Pantheons!) (Please note, these three are not the only deities of the pantheons (other than the Drow) of Toril who have some kind of gender bias. I was not prepared to go through every single one. Biases go both ways.) |
| Arbourean08-31-07, 08:18 PM | And we already bought the lowly-thief-becoming-mighty-god stuff once. Let's hope for the ascendancy of Jarlaxle... That would rule all. I used to speculate (until I learned better) that Jarlaxle was Vhaeraun or at least favoured by him. |
| Lord Karsus08-31-07, 08:46 PM | Just a thought. Remember, the more they mess with things, the more new books they can sell. -Sadly, that is correct... |
| Zanan09-02-07, 01:27 PM | Back to gender-restrictions ... I had a quick look at the dwarven deities in Demihuman Deities and they all had gender restrictions right up to the Time of Troubles, after which - for whatever reasons* - all suddenly allowed both genders in. Dunno what was happening when DD came out in the real world (PC) that such a thing was needed :rolleyes: As I have said, there are but a handful of deities within all of Faerūn which have gender restrictions (some de facto, some de jure, some both) and I see no reason to change this. There is enough main stream already. *Most likely described in the intro to the dwarven deities' chapter. |
| GothicDan09-02-07, 05:58 PM | I'd personally love to see more restrictions in fantasy churches. I think arbitrary things are what largely define religion. ;) |
| MerrikCale09-02-07, 09:32 PM | I think arbitrary things are what largely define religion. ;) Thats a loaded sentence |
| GothicDan09-02-07, 10:46 PM | All of my sentences are certainly loaded with something. |
| MerrikCale09-03-07, 12:07 AM | All of my sentences are certainly loaded with something. good for you |
| Alediran09-03-07, 02:31 PM | Thats a loaded sentence That sentence weighted like fifty tons. |
| Selvarin09-08-07, 04:58 AM | Well. folks...I read a sample chapter of Salvatore's new upcoming book. In it, Drizzt goes off talking about something of interest--please highlight for possible spoiler: “I have ventured outside of the Silver Marches,” Drizzt said, “have you? I have witnessed the death of once-proud Luskan, and with it, the death of a dear, dear friend, whose dreams lay shattered and broken beside the bodies of five thousand victims. I have watched the greatest cathedral in the world burn and collapse. I witnessed the hope of the goodly drow, the rise of the followers of Eilistraee. But where are they now?” “You speak in ridd—” the elf started, but Drizzt slammed him again. “Gone!” Drizzt shouted. “Gone, and gone with them the hopes of a tamed and gentle world. Folks, I don't mind losing a few drow deities. Heck, I'm actually tickled pink that Eilistraee merged with/won against Vhaeraun. ("The Masked Lady, She Who Travels in Starlight and Shadows" has a nice ring to it.) And I certainly don't mind if she turns CN as part of the process. Just another scar from battling her mother Lolth, right? But I'm hoping all that Mr. DD is indicating regards a disaster involving Qilue and some realignment/redeployment of her following in the Sword Coast North/Savage North, not the annhiliation of the whole religion. We already know the stakes are high so there must be some suffering involved...but...would WotC dare kill her off as well just as part of a wholesale reshuffling of the FR deific deck? I'm an optimist, though, and just as I expect a better D&D in May I will hope (and pray) for something better from them in the final book of this trilogy. Perhaps a stalemate, after drawing enough blood from each other. *sigh* WHAT color is the background for the text windows? Hard for me to hide the text to prevent spoilers without it. Grrr. |
| captaincarot09-08-07, 06:31 AM | if you put spoiler in the same way you did the quote it will black it out either that or sblock. such as this this is the spoiler one or this this is the sblock one now as for what you say in the quote where the hell did you get that from. it looks like not only luskan goes but the spirit soaring as well. this means the whole north west will be decimated. if this is the case :weep: :eek: :mad: :hoppingma :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: then that will probably sum up my reaction quite well! |
| Selvarin09-08-07, 06:37 AM | OK, I'll try that. As for where I got the info, go to http://www.rasalvatore.com/ and check the sample pdf provided there. It's about 12-13 pages, discusses a few things. |
| captaincarot09-08-07, 06:40 AM | ok i try to explain again. before you start the thing you want in the spoiler. type [ spoiler ] then type what you want in it then finish with [ / spoiler ] i have put some extra spaces in side the square brackets if you take those out it will work correctly either that or where i've writte spoiler above type sblock in fact the only mistake you made there is [/spoiler] on the end well done that man! but you having achieved a working spoiler is going to make this thread rather confusing, and probably finally convince some people that i am actually insane. |
| Miryana09-08-07, 06:41 AM | Well, the angst in that Orc King excerpt makes it look like FR won't become somewhat more points of light-ish, it's getting a Points of Light revamp despite what one designer (IIRC) said about existing settings. I hope there are still going to be some places in the Realms where it's possible to have a cosmopolitan campaign (an isolated big city that mysteriously manages to survive without trade and despite being surrounded by evil forces in all directions won't have the right mood, IMO). |
| Selvarin09-08-07, 06:56 AM | Thanks Captain, I finally figured it out. Silly me, took a few tries. :D Miryana, change is inevitable in the Realms so I accept most of what's coming down the pike. In all fairness the North hasn't seemed too savage in a while. Question is do they scour the interior (including Citadel Adbar) of PC races and let giants, orcs, etc., run free? That would also mean giving up Silverymoon in all likelihood, and the sample chapter mentioned Silverymoon. Thus the loss of part of the Sword coast North. At the very least, Luskan and the nearby environs sound like they're being taken...possibly by aboleth, as they were mentioned. But no direct connection. With regard to Qilue and the Promenade, it looks like that will be going, making the caverns beneath Waterdeep more dangerous. Perhaps Qilue will survive and merely relocate the survivors. My feeling, however, regardless of Eilistraee's fate, that Qilue will pass on in battle against her own followers. The weapon she clings to is turning her. And might I point out the possible bringing back of High Magic for the drow, acquired from the ancient Miyeritari? Perhaps Eilistraee's faithful (and others less traitorous) use it to bring back a place all their own on the High Moor, or elsewhere. Who knows. If Eilistraee makes it, and perhaps Halistra, I'll be content. But no story about Lolth or the drow finishes without a gray lining underneath. |
| Selvarin09-08-07, 06:58 AM | I'm insane already, having a fondness for drow, multiclassing...and wondering what in the devil the new multiclass rules for 4e will be. Argh. |
| Selvarin09-08-07, 07:02 AM | Well, the angst in that Orc King excerpt makes it look like FR won't become somewhat more points of light-ish, it's getting a Points of Light revamp despite what one designer (IIRC) said about existing settings. I hope there are still going to be some places in the Realms where it's possible to have a cosmopolitan campaign (an isolated big city that mysteriously manages to survive without trade and despite being surrounded by evil forces in all directions won't have the right mood, IMO). It won't be that bad. My bet is virtually everything north of Waterdeep's holdings, from the coast to the edge of the High Forest, will go back to wilderness. (Neverwinter may survive.) Some sort of route may end up going east and south of the High Forest, if the tree lords don't block it. Lots of time for speculation. |
| Miryana09-08-07, 07:23 AM | Miryana, change is inevitable in the Realms so I accept most of what's coming down the pike. In all fairness the North hasn't seemed too savage in a while. Question is do they scour the interior (including Citadel Adbar) of PC races and let giants, orcs, etc., run free? That would also mean giving up Silverymoon in all likelihood, and the sample chapter mentioned Silverymoon. I knew there was going to be change. I was expecting things like Szass Tam becoming the sole leader of a dangerously unified Thay, maybe half of the Seven Sisters dying or losing their power bases, entries detailing the problems that good kingdoms like Cormyr have to deal with. I thought such changes could provide the Realms with big enemies, address the common complaints about super-powerful good NPCs and, overall, respect the feel of the setting while doing things to make enemies more visible. It'll be a year before we really know what happened (that applies to both negative and positive judgments - 4E designers hope to inspire the latter when leaking information, but it's not somehow innately unfair of people to decide they don't like what they're hearing). Still, even though the character of Drizzt can be said to have a flair for angst and drama, that excerpt seems to be on a different level from what I'd expected - like the whole world has gone dark. Personally, I've seen the Realms as a place with big villains and opportunities for heroics, countless areas and cultures to explore; ultimately a positive, fun adventure. Not as the Roman Empire after the barbarians, with the Renaissance still unimaginably distant. That may end up being the 4E core setting, but it's not what I want for the Realms. I'm doubtful that they'd wreck the north so thoroughly and make only minor changes to the rest of the Realms. I don't mind the mechanical changes I've heard about but oh, how underwhelming the hints of 4E fluff are. |
| SmartPaladin09-08-07, 07:47 AM | If Eilistraee makes it, and perhaps Halistra, I'll be content. But no story about Lolth or the drow finishes without a gray lining underneath. Here's a thought, Eilistaree bites the bullet, and then, before Lolth can take not just hers, Eilistraee's, but Vhaeraun's portfolio and power as well, Halistra pounces on what she feels to be her last shot at freedom and power. Thus becoming the new Goddess of hope for the Drow race. For she had been mortal, and had grown up in the cruel and oppressive world of Lolth, but also had found love, and friendship, as well as a more open and welcoming sense of freedom on the surface with those who worshiped Eilistraee. With Vhaeraun's portfolio and power, she might too know better the Drow males, and be able to also offer them not just welcome on the surface, but a true sense of equity. For Lolth and Eilistraee's church were dominated by women, and the church of Vhaeraun were dominated by men. What do you think? Am I crazy? Don't answer that last part. :P |
| 1 ton ghost09-08-07, 12:59 PM | typically, the simlest answer is usually the correct one. however, you could argue this into oblivion. alright, she's coming from a largely matriarchal Chaotic Evil society. i imagine that has shaped a pseudo glass ceiling. that is, if you're not first born daughter and incapable and/or unwilling to assassinate your siblings, you will get to be a priestess of Lolth at best, but never be a Matron Mother. given that females are preferred, that's alot of competition and the attrition among females is arguably higher in that there is more jockeying for position. males are truly screwed which is probably why there is such an explosion of faith amongst Vhaerun. Eilistraee, being Chaotic Good, if anything, would encourage and sympathize w/ disillusioned/disenfranchized males. i mean, CG opposes tyranny and would totally embrace them as lost lambs. every convert is a lost prayer to Lolth. personal freedom is paramount in CG and when you've never been free in the Underdark, it's a pretty sweet deal. most of the clergy is seen as highly female largely due to artistic license. if anything, there would be more males then females as they have far more to lose under Lolthian rule and basically have a well-defined stopping point in typical drow culture, unless you are a super badass mage, unlikely and extremely rare. and even then, you're still male... long story short, males are most likely to jump ship as their lot in life sucks, short and sweet. plus the transition to a different, more accepting "matriarchy" (debateable) would be alot easier that just being thrown to the wolves. Eilistraee, i guess, appeals to Lolthians that couldn't "hack it", any expatriate, Hell, i'd even imagine the occaisional drider. it's just default drow are pretty evil and making a leap of faith to CG isn't easy, that's probably why Vhaerun is more prolific. no one says jack on Selvetarm though. i like him immensely as his dynamic is cool |
| MarkusTay6309-08-07, 01:23 PM | Well, according to that Orc King spoiler, whatever she is working at is going to fail miserably. :( |
| Selvarin09-08-07, 06:03 PM | Worst case scenario is that WotC treats non-Lolthian drow as Marvel has dealt with mutants..wiping them out, making Drizzt the true exception. That would be too severe. To go through all the motions of opening up RP possibilities with the books being published recently, only to put everything back to Drow = boringly maniacally evil = one shade of darkness (with nary a grey shade, and no silver). It's our world as much as theirs, so that wouldn't be the way to go. The problem with the drow pantheon has been that, in some ways, Vhaerun and Eilistraee shared some common goals but (unfortunately) Vhaeraun strayed to close to being a shade of Mask. Spoiler: What irony if Mask gets a 'second wind' from the influx of evil followers just as the 3rd book in the latest Erevis Cale trilogy winds down next year? What a way for Erevis to give to Mephistopheles without stealing from Mask. :P Now, with Vhaeraun gone and Eilistraee taking on many of his followers, her previous percieved hypocracy can be undone--and is being undone as we speak. The cost is she now shares some of Vhaeraun's personality traits, becoming a bit more subtle and harsher in some respects. She now has greater power in the bargain, hopefully she'll get to keep it. If she becomes CN as a result of this, she becomes more appealing to rebellious females who get sick of Lolth's somewhat counter-productive rule over the drow race. Those most open to hearing her story will be low-rung houses and those on the brink. While equality with males certainly rankles, drow are used to having strange bedfellows. They'll compete within the ranks of Eilistraee's faithful but remain united on the big issues, such as undermining Lolth. One thing I like is the idea of a faith within a faith--former Vhaeraunites within Eilistraee's clergy. I like choice, and being able to be a 'darkmask' or a Darksong Knight' sounds like a lot of RP fun. It seems likely that Cavatina will be forced to battle Qilue, only with Halisstra changing sides to help will that happen. In the process Cavatina will become Eilistraee's Chosen and, as a concession to Eilistraee, Halisstra will have her own curse lifted. Perhaps that is the answer. Lolth loses in the end, but Eilistraee releases her from the rules of the game if she frees Halisstra. Qilue will be dead and much mourned, but that will also be the price as that was part of Lolth's strategy. And if Halisstra is freed, what then? She is redeemed, a Darksong saint of sorts. But as a result of this battle, with the loss of so many, Eilistraee will move her main center of worship. Ghaunadaur--if he makes it (and likely Lolth will break him) will fill the void beneath the caverns of Waterdeep, forcing one 'point of light' away and to the east. So Eilistraee (if she survives) will become a CN drow goddess, sharing a larger portfolio but part of herself as part of the process. She will be neither her father's daughter nor her mother's any longer. |
| The Ubbergeek09-08-07, 06:34 PM | Sadly, her goodness was a big part of her nobility... a CN Eilistraee would not be Eilistraee no more. A needed sacrifice in an extreme, dire decision... and a great, great cost. |
| Selvarin09-08-07, 07:00 PM | I'm not as sagely as I once was but looking at Eilistraee I see much of the 'Goddess of the Hunt' persona to her. This is often viewed as CG but can also be seen in a more fey, CN aspect. From a rule standpoint doing so makes it easy to include most of Vhaeraun's former followers. Also, from a story aspect it makes Eilistraee more approachable to drow of other persuasions. As she seeks to come to the Light (again) so does she lead those who follow her. She isn't evil, she knows mercy and seeks a better way for the drow, but is as fierce as any huntress. In a sense she'd be going back to the roots. Eilistraee can still be 'noble and good' but her need to safeguard an alternative to Lolth (and to include as many non-Lolthites in her fold) may require her to go this route. Sometimes war is war and between being right (and dead) or alive... This isn't where going CN means 'slipping into CE' (as has happened with other drow deities), it just means Eilistraee's concerns may shift for a time. One's worshippers can have an effect upon a deity, and already we see some thematic shift on Eilistraee's part: her hair, the mask, and so on. If Eilistraee is to survive she will more closely resemble her people. The big question is Ghaunadaur, however. He has a broad enough portfolio and may feel he can wait the sava game's outcome before striking. If he dies, no big deal. Lolth will probably acquire his power unless some usurper (such as Juiblex) comes in to steal it. What we will have is Lolth as a Greater Deity and Eilistraee as an Intermediate. The board will be wiped clean and they will start over, for smaller stakes (a city here, a soul there, etc.). Perhaps Ghuanadaur will remain, maybe even claim Moander's portfolio from Lolth (albeit unlikely). Other deities will fill in the vacancies left behind--Orcus or Velsharoon (in the case of necromantic types), Mask (for the NE rogue types who wouldn't accept Eilistraee), perhaps even Mystra and Shar (for those who tire of the game, only to be brought into another not of their choosing). Personally I like Eilistraee as CG but even so I see the seductiveness of the Masked Lady being CN. Again, more accessible to the average drow than some good-goody that stinks of surface elves--as can be remarked upon by many a sneering Lolth witch-priestess. P.S. ON a side-note, if this is their way of thinking then we may well expect to see Mystra herself take on a N or LN aspect if she takes on (and wins) the Shadow Weave away from Shar. I hope not, I like the idea of her being NG. P.P.S. When re-reading the description for the Darkmask PrC found in Lords of Darkness I noticed it said that most surface drow worship Vhaeraun. If so, then that influx of power has to have a major effect upon her. |
| The Ubbergeek09-08-07, 07:46 PM | The problem is that sacrifice may also DRIVE followers away - like a betrayal. To make a comparaison, it's like what some left parties tried with the 'new left' approach, and the more militant base, the lefter ones, they are not exactly happy. Or like the PQ post-Parizeau, with a small centering on the economical side of politic from their center leftist leanings. Would the sacrifice's price be too high to MAYBE gain more followers from an often hostile group? |
| Selvarin09-08-07, 08:02 PM | Consider this...Lolth and Eilistraee are engaged in a sava game for which we're told that only one may walk away from. Winner takes all. Some were lost already when Vhaeraun was slain/absorbed. And probably were put-off by allowing males within her clergy. Now is Eilistraee turning evil? No, not to the best of my knowledge. But she needs all she can in order to counter Lolth's moves. She has gained from the battle so far, so has Lolth unfortunately. So, in some ways the political corollary (analogy?) is close but in other ways it isn't. This is a one chance/one vote situation. No run-offs or power-sharing yet, although it could happen if the game is expanded. In the short-term Eilistraee needs to accomodate the new influx of followers, just as Mystra did when she ascended, despite some dischord within the ranks. She needs their strength. In time they will be given a choice to conform to the accepted standards, etc.--just as were those of the Dead Three who went with Kelemvor and those who went with Mystra. There is precedent for this. And in this you may see a glimmer of hope as Mystra didn't change from NG in order to keep LE followers of the old Mystra. They were given 3 years, if I recall correctly. When faced with the annhilation of your faith, would you turn away those who may bolster your defenses? As a lesser theory it could be that Eilistraee does indeed die but Cavatina takes her place. Or even Halisstra. What a way to keep the faith. |
| The Ubbergeek09-08-07, 08:11 PM | When faced with the annhilation of your faith, would you turn away those who may bolster your defenses? Would you afford to loose the first, serious and engaged base for a change of policies to MAYBE, and I bring again, MAYBE get mroe souls? Because this is very hypothetical. |
| MarkusTay6309-08-07, 08:19 PM | I did not know that only one could walk away from the Sava game (not following the series, I'm all 'Drowed-out'). Since we now know through the Orc King spoiler that Eilistraee has some initial success with her gambit, then it appears she most likely won the Sava game (else Drizzt would not be referencing her in the future). However, we also know that somehow things sort of 'backfire' somewhere down the road. A lot of guesswork here... |
| Selvarin09-08-07, 08:21 PM | Are good-aligned Eilistraeeans running away in droves? It isn't a political party, it's a movement of faith. One that's determined, if unable to change or convert drow society/people at large, to at least provide a refuge for those who aren't the stereotypical dark elf. From both a story and a game standpoint the drow people are not going wholesale to the side of Good. If anything the battle that Eilistraee and her minons face against Lolth is a good example of the Points of Light theme coming forth in 4e. This struggle is going to smash and change everyone involved, but especially the one reformer deity in this game. There are multiple stories involving Eilistraee. One involves a battle for the soul of the drow race. Another involves the choices that Cavatina and Halisstra are making, as well as Halisstra's brother...and others. This isn't going to be nice and pretty at the end. Good-aligned drow will not leave Eilistraee if she becomes more neutral. They will leave if she dies or completely loses it. |
| Selvarin09-08-07, 08:28 PM | I did not know that only one could walk away from the Sava game (not following the series, I'm all 'Drowed-out). Since we now know through the Orc King spoiler that Eilistraee has some initial success with her gambit, then it appears she most likely won the Sava game (else Drizzt would not be referencing her in the future). However, we also know that somehow things sort of 'backfire' somewhere down the road. A lot of guesswork here... No, it doesn't indicate any success success with regard to the sava game. It didn't indicate anything regarding her in the future tense, not in the prelude PDF I read. Please re-read the spoiler: I witnessed the hope of the goodly drow, the rise of the followers of Eilistraee. But where are they now? You speak in ridd the elf started, but Drizzt slammed him again. Gone! Drizzt shouted. Gone, and gone with them the hopes of a tamed and gentle world. Currently Eilistraee exists. But Drizzt's words strongly speak of something wiping them away. I hope I'm wrong though. But thanks for reminding me of where I don't want this to go. Hope lies on a silver-thin thread. May it not be broken. |
| The Ubbergeek09-08-07, 08:41 PM | Chaotic Neutral don't means nice, also... Imagine if her neutrality made her like a cold-headed Garagos (spelling?)... Tempus and Helm have followers of Good alignement, but they are not always very liked, and for good reason.... tempus is a seeder of war, condoning bloodshed and warfare (albeit in a restrained, strangely ecological manner), and helmites have a reputation of being cold, uncaring beyond a steely justice, not withscounting the accusation of theocratic fanatism of the maztican problem... If she become neutral, it wont please the followers at all, who will feels a change... And well, it does have an aspect of a strange form of politic... Look at planescape stuff about gods - it is fascinating. They do battle for followers like politicians - or corporates. The question is hard to compromise believes and ideals for the greater numbers, or to stay true and perhaps minoritary, if not disapear? Sigh.... i hope not. Let's hope not. In a way, I'd see her more renouncing the numbers for the idea. And dying if it must , perhaps. Or radicalising.... It kind of follow the points of light concept, the grey world idea of Eberron, Shadowrun and all - eitheir way. |
| MarkusTay6309-08-07, 09:17 PM | True, but notice the usage of the word 'rise' in that sentence. It could mean their current unobtrusive existance, but it appears, to me anyway, that they will see some brief 'fame' before they fall, and that HASN'T happened yet. But its all a matter of how you interpret the wordage, I suppose. Drizzt could very well be referencing the Sava game itself. Which, come to think of it, would explain some of the text in the recent Drow of the Underdark I remember when that came out the author spoke about how she was directed to write about Lolth being the 'one and only' Drow god. The book was designed with 4e in mind, it would seem. Kiss the rest of the Pantheon goodbye, IMHO. ;) |
| Selvarin09-08-07, 09:55 PM | CN merely means (in my worldview) that independent thought and freedom is pursued without an active Goodly component. Many wood elves are CN, no? Eilistraee has already changed, the second book chronicles the subtle (and not so subtle) things happening. Whether that constitutes shifting to CN or merely short-term dischord is another thing entirely. And it is not the end of the world if she isn't CG with a capital 'G'. I will grant that deific goings-on is politics but it isn't...our politics. That is way too personal. Eilistraee isn't like she's shifting some party plank in order to gain 4% points in Pandemonium, worrying about losing 2% in Arvandor. We all have our favorites, if Eilistraee makes it without being munched then we should be happy. But the continuing story about drow and their gods is that there is no progress--or freedom from Lolth--without pain or loss. Liriel Baenre demonstrated it, so will others. In this case, Ubbergeek, you have to ask yourself: Is it more 'noble' to stand proud, good, and alone...and to fall? To leave nothing for non-evil drow to hold on or aspire to? Or is it better to bend in order to survive and be there for your people? In Eilistraee's case, the latter is the only choice. It is the Drow way, and not necessarily an Evil thing. Markustay63: The word 'rise' could as easily mean their greater visibility in recent years (since 3.*). We don't know either way. It could well be that a stalemate is reached (because we all know Lolth isn't going anywhere) but that Eilistraee's followers are wiped away due to the coming Spellplague that's supposed to run riot over the Sword Coast North. It could also mean Qilue succumbs to Lolth's "gift" and destroys the Promenade beneath Waterdeep. And while you make a good point regarding DotU (3.5), that was core/setting-neutral and not a FR-specific game supplement. Eilistraee is local/FR, not 'core', so that makes perfect sense. So on one hand it's food for thought but on the other hand...eh. It's a bit like saying a setting-neutral book on dwarves mentioning only Moradin and not Gorm or Haela means their furry little butts are baking in Gruumsh's oven like matching hams. |
| Selvarin09-08-07, 10:01 PM | As an afterthought, considering that the pantheons continue to merge and realign... What a rip if someone decided to have Mielikki take over Eilistraee's portfolio? *hears the cries of revolt in the air* :D Woo, my sentiments exactly when the Faiths & Pantheons book mentioned Mask taking notice of Vhaeraun. There should be a drow pantheon and not merely Lolth. That would be boring beyond belief. |
| Crazygx3409-08-07, 11:03 PM | I know why Eilistraee is so female orianted, I know the truth. The truth is that is 2nd name is the dark maiden and maiden is for female. Secondo is 3rth name is lady of dance and dance is for female. :embarrass Now its for this that male are not encline to workshipher.:eek: |
| The Ubbergeek09-08-07, 11:13 PM | I'd say better fall and not compromise on one's ideals. But maybe I am still young and not 'wisened' by life... The gods do see this as a Grand Game, note. Calculus and all. Now... I think there is a factor that we may have forgotten... Drow are, like every mortal beings of Faerun, free-willed beings witha conscience and personality. That imply by example that some drow may find interested in non-drow gods... And non-drow gods may take a marked interest in drow, now. Note that in this vein, Eilistraee have allies, official or not... And her dad watch closely his daughter.... |
| Dipree Xarann09-08-07, 11:19 PM | I don't want to spoil anything but things are changing in Eilistraee's clergy if you read Lisa Smedman's Lady Penitent series . |
| Selvarin09-08-07, 11:28 PM | Again, weigh the consequences. Eilistraee can fall a little but if she's out of the game there will be no drow deity for dark elves to identify with outside of Lolth. Would you prefer that? And I haven't forgotten that other deities are an option. Mystra, for example. I have a cleric/wizard/mystic theurge who follows Mystra because she isn't as matriarchal--and before Liriel was ever listed as a mystic theurge. :D And another who worships Hanali Celanil. The point is that I want an alternative choice besides Lolth that is pure drow and yet a little different. And while Eilistraee has allies, they are not part of the game that is being overseen by Ao. Deities can join only by mutual consent but do you think Corellon would be allowed in? Lolth would cry foul. But hey, maybe they'll let Shevarash in and he'll get killed in the process. That would be interesting. as much as I love elven deities (I've created a few myself) the pantheon does appear bloated at times. In the end, if Eilistraee loses, Corellon he can't quite come in and save her. I suppose he could but not exactly reinstate her in her previous position. From all indications this is a drow-only sava match. And thanks, Dipree, for mentioning that. Indeed that's been one of the sources I've been using. |
| The Ubbergeek09-08-07, 11:56 PM | The problem is that an harsher, neutral, colder Eilistraee is not Eilistraee anymore, really.... It's a drow Shevarash. Well, I think one thing is sure... Corellion will NOT seat up and watch simply. At the very least, perhaps he will have his vengence... |
| Selvarin09-09-07, 12:06 AM | I applaud your passion but yes, Corellon will let it go unavenged. He has enough on his plate, it will be a long time before there is a 'window of opportunity'. He has his own responsibility and Eilistraee for her part has tended to stay a bit separate from the Seldarine. |
| Crazygx3409-09-07, 12:22 AM | Why the drow so colder:confused: Why they just make Eilistraee First goddess of drow:confused: Why not make loth second..:confused: :confused: :confused: The world it not so evil :D Open you eye, your mind:eek: Drow are not that bad:dancin: Why scare the people with Loth:confused: Why make the Drow sado-maso:confused: Why they don't like light:confused: All this question ....Life its like this...really... your mind like this. Because they are black:confused: Because your're sado:confused: Because your violent:confused: :confused: Are you pervert:confused: Have you thinking of this by your self:confused: Are you racist:confused: :confused: I really love the drow and if I was one I will choose Eilistraee, because she sexy and wear no cloth:cool: |
| Selvarin09-09-07, 12:27 AM | Why the drow so colder:confused: Why they just make Eilistraee First goddess of drow:confused: Why not make loth second..:confused: :confused: :confused: The world it not so evil :D Open you eye, your mind:eek: Drow are not that bad:dancin: Why scare the people with Loth:confused: Why make the Drow sado-maso:confused: Why they don't like light:confused: All this question ....Life its like this...really... your mind like this. Because they are black:confused: Because your're sado:confused: Because your violent:confused: :confused: Are you pervert:confused: Have you thinking of this by your self:confused: Are you racist:confused: :confused: I really love the drow and if I was one I will choose Eilistraee, because she sexy and wear no cloth:cool: I'm not sure if I should laugh or call a specialist but it is kinda funny. |
| Crazygx3409-09-07, 12:44 AM | I'm just crazy.....:cool: |
| Selvarin09-09-07, 12:50 AM | Like a fox or a coyote? Or is that a wolf? Eilistraee's people haven't shown me the difference. I've been in a dusty hole for too long. |
| Crazygx3409-09-07, 01:05 AM | Crazy like a fox! Hungry like the wolf! :) Maybe we should call your specialist of drow to answer all my question!:) He will make us a great story!:) |
| captaincarot09-09-07, 03:01 AM | if lolth is to become the only drow deity left, how do we know that she doesn't get that way by absorbing elli and so becoming a neutral goddess of all drow. just thought i'd stick that litlle bit in there to get her worshippers all fired up. |
| Selvarin09-09-07, 03:03 AM | A bass rarely gets acid reflux from eating a guppy. |
| Vulpes09-09-07, 08:16 PM | I really don't know what the hell is going to happen with the sava game. On the one hand, I can't see them offing Lolth. She's just... Lolth. And the fact that, so far, overall, Eilisteraee has done very, very well in the game makes me think that she won't actually win (I'm pessimistic like that). But on the other hand, I can't see them going back and just making drow the simplistic "OMG TEH TOTES EVULLL!!!" they've done so much to change over the years. Worst case: drow go back to TEH EVULLL and all the good drow die (except for Liriel and Drizzt maybe). Best case: all those Miyertiri kiira and Q'arlynd do a High Magic whammy and destroy faezress, allowing at least some drow to become dark elves again and return to the now-healing High Moor with a re-Seldarined Eilisteraee as their patron, and Lolth reigns over the rest in the Underdark. Or maybe Eilisteraee loses and dies, but Cavastina or Halisstra take over her portfolio somehow. Oh how Lolth would howl at that! *LOL* The one really way out there thought I had was that maybe, somehow, they would be welcomed home by Corellon and return to Arvandor. I base this only on the fact that Lolth and Eilisteraee actually talk about that, even if in a "yeah, THAT'LL happen" way, several times in both books. Foreshadowing? |
| Selvarin09-09-07, 09:03 PM | You know what, you are right. I didn't even think of it. The removal of the faerzness will tie in with 4e and its newest incarnation of drow, and all the talk of Miyeritar and dark elven High Magic. What the Lady Penitent trilogy does is pave the way for that as well as a restructuring of the drow pantheon. With the changes in drow there could be a mini-exodus to the surface. And when it comes to tangling with Lolth even a stalemate becomes a victory. There is still the threat of Eilistraee dying, or perhaps passing the baton to someone else--after all, what more poignant way to free her people (if not the drow)than in self-sacrifice? Not too sure about the Arvandor thing, but on the other hand it isn't beyond belief for Corellon and the Seldarine to undo the curse wrought upon the drow, if only for the benefit of those not lost to evil. Sacred cows will be slaughtered, just as in a Joss Whedon film or TV show. Thus my bet is on Qilue. But since the emphasis is on Halisstra, if even she can find salvation so can the rest. It's a hard balancing act, though considering the need to keep the drow villianous and yet allow them to be playable without going too goody-goody. A hidden realm of non-evil dark elves on the High Moor might be a compromise. |
| Duedaine09-09-07, 11:06 PM | PS: Next time, count till ten before deciding on a header for the topic. I can't see this one being online for much longer. HAHAHAHA. This Topic has gotten the largest response of anything else I've asked in almost 2 years! Also, I believe Lord Karsus ended my anger. Did Vhaerun die in Sacrifice of the Widow? |
| SmartPaladin09-09-07, 11:15 PM | HAHAHAHA. This Topic has gotten the largest response of anything else I've asked in almost 2 years! Also, I believe Lord Karsus ended my anger. Did Vhaerun die in Sacrifice of the Widow? Yes. Now he's portfolio is held by Eilistraee, I think... I know she has his worshiper. |
| Vulpes09-09-07, 11:15 PM | You know, I've never really seen any of the good drow as "goody goody," except maybe Drizzt. Honestly, I think some people's absolute loathing of that character and everything he stands for has more to do with anti-good drow sentiment than the rest of the good drow population itself. In a lot of ways, good drow like Liriel and Quile and so on are a lot more complex and interesting as characters than your typical "I'm CRAZY and EVUL and did I mention I was EVUL?" Matron Mother ever is. |
| Selvarin09-09-07, 11:16 PM | Short answer: yes. Long answer: It ain't over till it's over (i.e., the final book is read). Very few saw the real battle and there is a plot thread about him not actually dying. I wouldn't rule out Vhaeraun merging with Eilistraee temporarily in order to A) fight Lolth as a united front or B) renege and strike at Eilistraee from within, or C) pop out to strike at Lolth from behind. Not likely but a fair number of people are fond of Vhaeraun so who knows. Ohhh am I wishing I had a copy of the third book's manuscript. *sigh* |
| Crazygx3409-09-07, 11:28 PM | I don't have read this book but intent to. What I know of Eilistraee it's she got some friend in the pantheon and she good. And evil don't win often. In the others side Loth don'T have a loth of friend and she live in the dark and don't like light. In this way maybe she will still rules the underdark drow mistress. But for those who renounce her, Loth don't get hold if they are not caugh. I know mistress change unfaithfull drow in drider(drizzt trilogie) Drizzt discover Miliaki(I Think) and I don't think loth got hold on him, because he renounce her with all this heart. That why , just in by the read in the drow trylogie , Loth is a looser and she will alway's loose... Eilistraee she good and sexy and got good friend in the pantheon. Eilistraee rime with Elminster.. Elminster survive the hell because of his sexy godess friend And EIlistraee is a sexy godess... Loth she big and ugly... That why Loth will loose again like Bane , Bhaaal and all other evil god who want power. |
| Selvarin09-10-07, 12:47 AM | You know, I've never really seen any of the good drow as "goody goody," except maybe Drizzt. Honestly, I think some people's absolute loathing of that character and everything he stands for has more to do with anti-good drow sentiment than the rest of the good drow population itself. In a lot of ways, good drow like Liriel and Quile and so on are a lot more complex and interesting as characters than your typical "I'm CRAZY and EVUL and did I mention I was EVUL?" Matron Mother ever is. People's perceptions may be colored as much by overly good drow PC descriptions that one runs across on message boards as by Drizzt's presence in FR fantasy literature. That can make people a little aghast, as if it's defiling a sacred--er, profane fantasy institution. (The ultimate sacrilege may be seeing "Drow Tales" on the Internet, which is actually pretty good but the anime thing kind of slaps some people sideways.) And you're right, allowing shades of grey is more interesting from a story standpoint. The drow are more useful if it there's a way to interact in ways other than ultimate blood and warfare. When it's that extreme people just put the helmets on and start war (ala Aliens ). If evil can occasionally be approached it's no less deadly, as in Grazzt's demon cities. As for Lolth, Crazygx34, she has a few friends. But not many she won't drain the blood from. :D Hmm, perhaps the next thread should be "Eilistraee has me tickled pink!"...slightly less whizzy. |
| Crazygx3409-10-07, 01:49 AM | I agree with selvarin! :) Eilistraee **** me off! it a little:looloo: |
| Selvarin09-10-07, 03:14 AM | 'Tickled pink' is just a bit different from 'seeing red' but ooookay... |
| DarkSongKnight09-10-07, 12:27 PM | Here is an overview of what occurs in Storm of the Dead, book 2 of The Lady Penitent series. Spoilers, lots of them. You've been warned. ;) There have been some major changes in Eilistraee's faith. It is set in 1376, and it has been near two years since Eilistraee killed and absorbed Vhaeraun. In that time, males have become accepted (well, tolerated is a better word) in her faith as clerics. These males are mostly the "nightshadows" from Vhaeraun's faith that now serve "The Masked Lady." They participate in High Hunts, running around naked like the priestesses. You can imagine the effect this has had on after-ritual activities. Eilistraee's symbol now appears to be a half-moon. Part of it moonlight, part of it shadow. She also accepts more underhanded means of dealing with foes, including using assassins (the nightshadows). There is a split in the faith. Those who cling to the older worship styles of Eilistraee, and the newer ones who accept her shadow aspect. Cavatina (drow Clr 14/Ftr 8), the DarksongKnight that defeated Selvetarm in the first novel, still clings to the older ways of worship, and is somewhat resentful and suspicious of the males. There is a great part of a chapter, that describes her on the High Hunt. It really does an incredible job at describing what it would be like to be an Eilistraeen on the High Hunt. I particularly enjoyed that bit. It later goes on to say that she pretty much ignored the shadows that came along with the moonlight in her clerical powers. She is later betrayed by Halisstra and captured by Wendonai. She is tied up, but not gagged. He tries to make her bitter, poking at her weakness that she will never be redeemed. She sees the flaw in that logic, as the ritual of redemption had to be made for something. She then realizes that redemption isn't so much about turning from "evil" to "good," but more about facing one's own weaknesses and fears, and overcoming them for the better. Eilistraee herself then manifests protective powers long enough over Cavatina, to allow the DarksongKnight the chance to kill Wendonai. Oh yeah, she also leads a battle against the Acropolis of Thanatos, Kiaransalee's main temple, and they would have lost if the wizard drow (Q' something?) hadn't erased her name. He did this to keep the voidstone that the followers of Kiaransalee were going to use to summon an undead army into the world, from making faezress (sp?) stronger, and thus luring more drow back from the surface into the underdark. Apparently, faezress was part of the High Magic ritual used during the descent. The faezress lured the drow into the underdark. There is a conspiracy theory held by one of Vhaeraun's faithful that Vhaeraun has merely disguised himself as Eilistraee in order to allow his faithful to sneak into Eilistraee's strongholds of power, and to test his faithful. The heretic also adds that the time will come for the Masked Lord to reclaim those who have been faithful, etc. A nightshadow assassin was sent to kill him, but he convinces the assassin that what he says is true. That same nightshadow goes on to lead the nightshadow section of the crusade against the Acropolis, alongside Cavatina. For some reasons, the priestesses of Eilistraee wanted that follower of Vhaeraun dead because the priestesses were saying that it was Eilistraee who went into Vhaeraun's plane and killed him, and not the other way around. I'm not sure why it would be important as to which deity entered who's domain, as Vhaeraun is apparently dead either way. There have also been some odd going-ons with Qilue. She "attunes" herself to the Crescent Blade, and accepts the change in her faith without a second thought. There is one part where Cavatina gets irked that a male walks into the Cavern of Song and begins singing, as only females had sang there non-stop for all the years that the Promenade had been founded. She contacts Qilue, who responds with a mere "that has to change to" or something along the lines thereof. |
| MarkusTay6309-10-07, 12:56 PM | I don't want to address every point, else my post would be over-long. @Vulpes - You make a good point, and I said something similar in another post. I think that the 'Drow' will be seperated from 'Dark Elves' in 4e. They have as much said that Drow would be a seperate race, and the resurgence of the that surface kingdom you mentioned in your spoiler would indicate a pre-sundering type of Dark Elf returning. I DON'T see Eilistraee coming out of all this in one piece, though. Lolth isn't going anywhere, and she certainly won't change her alignment. She is a D&D game icon, and any change to her would cause the universe to colapse. ;) Markustay63: The word 'rise' could as easily mean their greater visibility in recent years (since 3.*). We don't know either way. It could well be that a stalemate is reached (because we all know Lolth isn't going anywhere) but that Eilistraee's followers are wiped away due to the coming Spellplague that's supposed to run riot over the Sword Coast North. It could also mean Qilue succumbs to Lolth's "gift" and destroys the Promenade beneath Waterdeep. And while you make a good point regarding DotU (3.5), that was core/setting-neutral and not a FR-specific game supplement. Eilistraee is local/FR, not 'core', so that makes perfect sense. So on one hand it's food for thought but on the other hand...eh. It's a bit like saying a setting-neutral book on dwarves mentioning only Moradin and not Gorm or Haela means their furry little butts are baking in Gruumsh's oven like matching hams.Bear in mind that the guys at WotC had two years to take into account all the changes we will likely see, so ANYTHING released in the last year needs to be re-examined closely. Yes, DotU was core, but FR was specifically mentioned therein. Undermountain was also 'core', and yet the events in that book are directly linked to the Spellplague! Also, one of the few definate things they have decided upon was a movement away from the term 'core' vs setting - all rules will apply to all settings. Now go back and read DotU and tell me that the book was not written with the outcome of the Sava game in mind. There is no more 'core' - all rules are relative. :cool: What a rip if someone decided to have Mielikki take over Eilistraee's portfolio?I can see that, and it might be their 'out'. If Mielikki absorbs Eilistraee's power, perhaps her Khalreshaar aspect will become independent, and become a goddes in her right - a combination of Eilistaee and Mielikki. That might just be what they're shooting for... The fact that 'shaar' is in that name makes me nervous, though. |
| Selvarin09-10-07, 03:32 PM | Darksong Knight, thanks for the summary/synopsis. Some may not have realized what's being argued about is based in part upon the two books released so far. Yep, faerzness was part of a compulsion magic to force the drow below as much as anything else. *nod* As for Qilue, she's out of step with her own training, as Cavatina's observations about her behavior (nicking herself during a sword dance, for example) after acquiring the Crescent Blade. And whereas before one could chalk some of this to Cavatina's own dark desire for the weapon, later on it seems to be foreshadowing of something else. Perhaps her own need to readjust. Then again that weapon broke at the end of the last series so... The issue with Karas being sent to slay Valdar is an interesting one, based on the premise that Vhaeraun faked his own death and merged with Eilistraee. It's plausible but can just as easily be a wedge used to weaken her among the faithful at some later point in time--and likely a crucial one. Or it could be a test of the converts'. But from a design standpoint I wouldn't be surprised if Mask takes up Vaeraun's mantle (and some of his former portfolio) . What a surprise for Lolth and Eilistraee if he were to pop up towards the end. It won't happen necessarily like that, but something will. MarkusTay63: There could well be a distinction made, in the sense that those who are redeemed are merely termed dark elves or Miyeritari, etc., and have slightly different powers than the 'standard' drow. This would be more in line with 4e, except they're building various suitable PC races from the ground up. Perhaps they'll be virtually the same except for 2 or 3 attributes/powers. But one point of interest would be if the reaction to drow is merely the reputation or yet another side effect of the faerzness, hmm? With the rep merely reinforcing the feeling that one naturally gets from seeing actual drow...Not likely, just speculation on my part. But ummmm whooooa. Undermountain is in the Forgotten Realms. It isn't some generic 'core' thing, last I heard, although it isn't hard to shoe-horn into another. And while some FR things may be written about in DotU, it's still a setting-neutral book. It applies to drow, but again, think...Is DotU meant to rewrite everything that relates to the Forgotten Realms? The point I was trying to make was that DotU is a generic utility book. It doesn't change the history of FR drow, it doesn't include any FR-specific drow deity. Neither did the setting-neutral books Races of Stone and Races of the Wild. Not a single dwarven or elven deity who solely originated in the Forgotten Realms is in those books. If we used your implied logic then we may as well figure that their pantheons are in danger of axing as well. It just won't happen that way. The whole point is that several of the drow deities are very popular and I don't see WotC wiping them all out with the stroke of a pen. (They may have done so with Vhaeraun but it remains to be seen if it's for real or just a ruse on his part.) The pantheon itself is patchwork at best, and a couple of them quite unnecessary considering that there are standard FR deities that fill the same niche. But as much as I can see Kiaransalee and Vhaeraun's places in the Underdark being taken by Mask and Velsharoon, however, I don't see the designers being so bold as to wipe Eilistraee from the board. To paraphrase an old saying, "The more things (seem to) change the more they stay the same." |
| GothicDan09-10-07, 03:58 PM | Selvarin, a lot of your post seems to rely on hope rather than actual evidence from WotC. ;) DotU was a setting-neutral book. The only settings WotC has going are FR and Eberron. The Eberron-Drow don't even worship Lolth. What setting does that leave? |
| Selvarin09-10-07, 05:22 PM | Goth, it's always nice to hear from you, especially after having to correct you last time--with official material references--about drow-elf offspring. ;) With that being said you're right in that this is all speculation. I am hoping that WotC doesn't wreck the drow pantheon, and I am making educated guesses about what may happen, based on how WotC publishes books and how their designers tend to do things. In this instance I'm saying that the deity listings in setting-neutral books such as Drow of the Underdark, Races of the Wild, and Races of Stone don't mean a thing because those sections weren't meant to replace any pantheon that is specific to the Forgotten Realms. The reason why they're considered setting-neutral is because (gasp!) many gamers play in campaigns that do not take place in Eberron or Faerun, and thus that's how the books are marketed. You can add what you like to your campaign, FR or not, but they aren't FR books. That's why there's no Forgotten Realms label on any of three books in question. See? *points at each one* These setting-neutral books only included deities which are 'core' or iconic, accepted or published outside of Realms material. (This is different than what they did with 1993's Monster Mythologies, which in fact did publish FR drow deities that were first published in Ed Greenwood's 1991 book, Drow of the Underdark). Drow have been fun (and profitable) to write about, and virtually every change in the rules has been followed by a book series, from Elaine Cunningham's Starlight and Shadows series on. The game rules changed and so they were incorporated in the stories. This time, 4e has been in the works for several years, and it seems to me that WotC again wants to create an in-world explanation for why something's changing. It's also a good excuse to get rid of a few (not all!) gods that were unnecessary or whose portfolios stepped on the toes of other deities'. Now, look at the War of the Spider Queen trilogy. A lot of warring during Lolth's Silence that, in the end, was much ado about nothing. All Lolth did was allow the chaos to cull the herd while she moved and had a cosmetic makeover. Big whoop. Now we have a real war, where again there's a culling of the herd, except it's on the deific level. Since it's been something of a mission for the various FR-based pantheons to get tidied up a bit, I'm not surprised that a few are going to fall. But I don't see them killing off one that provides much role-playing potential for PC's as Eilistraee. It would be foolish to kill her off. Look at what happened with Bane, they killed him off during the 2e Time of Troubles but fans missed him so much (albeit as a villian) that they bumped Iyactu off in the process to bring him back for 3rd Edition. The watch-phrase for me is "Don't kill the flavor." It's like having ginger chicken with red peppers for dinner. You take out the ginger and the peppers, what does that leave you with? Chicken. And while I like Lolth, without some counterpoint or opposing form she becomes a bit colorless, as do the drow themselves. They may as well convert en masse to Sharaan worship. Which brings me back to "Don't kill the flavor", WotC designers. If I wanted my drow character to worship a non-drow deity like Mielikki or Mystra, I would. (And some do.) But just as my elven charcters tend to worship elven deities it would bother me if there wasn't a race-centric option for drow aside from Lolth. So, say it with me folks--"Don't kill the flavor!" I don't think they will. There are massive changes going underway but it will be almost like the Time of Troubles II...except no Bane death. Perhaps another mortal elevated to deific status (to merge with/replace Eilistraee). And if they were to kill Eilistraee they'd have to do something quite fantastic to keep me in the fold. I'm already buying fewer books because my bookshelves are starting to warp, I don't need another excuse to limit it further. P.S. The last (or next-to-last) actor in this game is Ghaunadaur. Since he's worked with Lolth in the past, I wonder who might help to counter his moves on the sava board. And another thing, when Kiaransalee died when her followers were forced to forget her name (via Q'arlynd and his cohorts' actions? Qilue told her people to slay them as opposed to giving them a chance to be saved. Sounds to me more like a directive from Lolth, since doing so allowed the souls of these now-faithless drow to be lost instead of directed towards Eilistraee. Not that many would, but nontheless... And considering how Mask once masqueraded as the weapon Godsbane, used by Cyric, for a time, why not an avatar or aspect of Lolth masquerading as the Crescent Blade? Oh what a tangled web we weave, when upon Eilistraee's Chosen we plan to betray and deceive... |
| GothicDan09-10-07, 06:41 PM | See, to me? The flavor of FR is already largely dead. The one last hope for me was Grand History. So it's much harder for me to hope for the future when I've already been disappointed according to my standards. PS: You never proved me wrong. You just proved that my speculations were just largely speculations. And besides, it was about Drow. Who cares about Drow? ;) |
| Selvarin09-10-07, 07:07 PM | OK that was funny. Nice tweak, Mister. :P In this instance there's plenty of room to debate and wonder but I don't think the outcome of Lolth and Eilistraee's sava game is going to be that bad. If they (the designers) were going to herd non-human races straight towards the FR deities that humans primarily worship then I'd say I'm done with it. I never liked Krynn's pantheon and generic 'one size fits all' pantheons bore me, I don't want any of that in the Realms. I like something more varied. For example, to me it's no big deal that some elves worship Mystra, but I don't accept the premise of elven wizards invoking her. That's Corellon's purview. Same goes for certain other deities. If it pushes the campaign and storyline, then a little integration between the various groups are fine. There's room among the drow for deities beside Lolth, so wiping everyone else out is counterproductive. For all we know this could be a game not to win but to hurt. Lolth loves to hurt others, including her daughter, what better way than to tear down much of what she has only to let her live? To show Eilistraee how weak she really is, existing only through her own sufferance? A cruel mother indeed. As a vengeance demon once said on a Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode, "Never go for the kill when you can go for the pain." |
| Zandilar09-10-07, 08:44 PM | Heya, Bear in mind that the guys at WotC had two years to take into account all the changes we will likely see, so ANYTHING released in the last year needs to be re-examined closely. Yes, DotU was core, but FR was specifically mentioned therein. Undermountain was also 'core', and yet the events in that book are directly linked to the Spellplague! Also, one of the few definate things they have decided upon was a movement away from the term 'core' vs setting - all rules will apply to all settings. Now go back and read DotU and tell me that the book was not written with the outcome of the Sava game in mind. There is no more 'core' - all rules are relative. :cool: Keep in mind that the spoilers we've seen in The Orc King happen 100 years in the future. Aparently Drizzt says that Eilistraee did have quite a spectacular success that didn't last too long. If we're seeing the game world in 10 years time, Eilistraee will quite possibly be in her ascendancy. If this is the case, I may be able to live with it... I can see that, and it might be their 'out'. If Mielikki absorbs Eilistraee's power, perhaps her Khalreshaar aspect will become independent, and become a goddes in her right - a combination of Eilistaee and Mielikki. That might just be what they're shooting for... The fact that 'shaar' is in that name makes me nervous, though. Sharess has Shar very blatantly in her name. In fact, if you wanted to be picky, "Sharess" could be seen as meaning "little Shar" (since -ess is a diminuative as well as making the word it's attached to feminine). Despite being under Shar's influence prior to the end of the Time of Troubles (I'm not sure how far in to the ToT Sune rescued her), having Shar in her name hasn't been an ill omen for her one whit. (Though I'm sure Shar would like her back, she doesn't appear to have made any effort towards that end). As for Eilistraee and Mielikki merging... well there's another solution I might be able to live with. I really like that idea, if we can't have Eilistraee as she is now (prior to LP), Mielikki is quite a worthy successor, IMHO, especially given her ties to the Seldarine. |
| SmartPaladin09-10-07, 09:21 PM | Selvarin, a lot of your post seems to rely on hope rather than actual evidence from WotC. ;) DotU was a setting-neutral book. The only settings WotC has going are FR and Eberron. The Eberron-Drow don't even worship Lolth. What setting does that leave? The one where they can nerf the Half Drow? Yes, as a matter of fact I am still bitter about that... :mad: |
| Selvarin09-10-07, 10:25 PM | Zandilar, Realms writers aren't known for revealing the 'surprise ending' of other writers' upcoming books. The reference to Eilistraee's followers is deliberately vague except that they will be washed away, gone, by something. Drizzt himself is but an observer, he may not know what really happens. For all we know, Eilistraee may whisk her faithful away into seclusion ahead of whatever's coming down the pike, Spellplague or otherwise. So people hear of some calamity and find the Promenade abandoned, or awash in seawater (or Ghaunadaur's minions). Who does he hear it from? Perhaps from Alustriel. Or perhaps a crossover novel is in the works that the author in question is thinking about. SmartPaladin, think about this. Besides rule-zeroing what DotU says about half-drow, in 4e they may well correct it. (Shouldn't have to begin with, but hey...). Look at how they're rewriting devils. In Fiendish Codex II the devils are angels who became twisted by their contact with demons, and their ultimate leader was thrown down from the Heavens. In 4e, apparently, they're angels who rebelled and slew their god, for which the plane of existence were on was thrown down as well and became the Hells. (A broad simplification of what's been written but you get the gist of it.) Things change. In any case if they can switch daylight adaptation back from being a regional feat... |
| Crazygx3409-10-07, 11:22 PM | :clap: Bravo! Selvarin good point!:) Lolth is a sympol for the drow. She was ancient demon and now she deity.With all the death make in time of trouble! That god and god can't die like this. God die when nobody workship them. Do you ever see a Greek god dying in the mythologie ,For I , I don't remember. Goth, it's always nice to hear from you, especially after having to correct you last time--with official material references--about drow-elf offspring. ;) With that being said you're right in that this is all speculation. I am hoping that WotC doesn't wreck the drow pantheon, and I am making educated guesses about what may happen, based on how WotC publishes books and how their designers tend to do things. In this instance I'm saying that the deity listings in setting-neutral books such as Drow of the Underdark, Races of the Wild, and Races of Stone don't mean a thing because those sections weren't meant to replace any pantheon that is specific to the Forgotten Realms. The reason why they're considered setting-neutral is because (gasp!) many gamers play in campaigns that do not take place in Eberron or Faerun, and thus that's how the books are marketed. You can add what you like to your campaign, FR or not, but they aren't FR books. That's why there's no Forgotten Realms label on any of three books in question. See? *points at each one* These setting-neutral books only included deities which are 'core' or iconic, accepted or published outside of Realms material. (This is different than what they did with 1993's Monster Mythologies, which in fact did publish FR drow deities that were first published in Ed Greenwood's 1991 book, Drow of the Underdark). Drow have been fun (and profitable) to write about, and virtually every change in the rules has been followed by a book series, from Elaine Cunningham's Starlight and Shadows series on. The game rules changed and so they were incorporated in the stories. This time, 4e has been in the works for several years, and it seems to me that WotC again wants to create an in-world explanation for why something's changing. It's also a good excuse to get rid of a few (not all!) gods that were unnecessary or whose portfolios stepped on the toes of other deities'. Now, look at the War of the Spider Queen trilogy. A lot of warring during Lolth's Silence that, in the end, was much ado about nothing. All Lolth did was allow the chaos to cull the herd while she moved and had a cosmetic makeover. Big whoop. Now we have a real war, where again there's a culling of the herd, except it's on the deific level. Since it's been something of a mission for the various FR-based pantheons to get tidied up a bit, I'm not surprised that a few are going to fall. But I don't see them killing off one that provides much role-playing potential for PC's as Eilistraee. It would be foolish to kill her off. Look at what happened with Bane, they killed him off during the 2e Time of Troubles but fans missed him so much (albeit as a villian) that they bumped Iyactu off in the process to bring him back for 3rd Edition. The watch-phrase for me is "Don't kill the flavor." It's like having ginger chicken with red peppers for dinner. You take out the ginger and the peppers, what does that leave you with? Chicken. And while I like Lolth, without some counterpoint or opposing form she becomes a bit colorless, as do the drow themselves. They may as well convert en masse to Sharaan worship. Which brings me back to "Don't kill the flavor", WotC designers. If I wanted my drow character to worship a non-drow deity like Mielikki or Mystra, I would. (And some do.) But just as my elven charcters tend to worship elven deities it would bother me if there wasn't a race-centric option for drow aside from Lolth. So, say it with me folks--"Don't kill the flavor!" I don't think they will. There are massive changes going underway but it will be almost like the Time of Troubles II...except no Bane death. Perhaps another mortal elevated to deific status (to merge with/replace Eilistraee). And if they were to kill Eilistraee they'd have to do something quite fantastic to keep me in the fold. I'm already buying fewer books because my bookshelves are starting to warp, I don't need another excuse to limit it further. P.S. The last (or next-to-last) actor in this game is Ghaunadaur. Since he's worked with Lolth in the past, I wonder who might help to counter his moves on the sava board. And another thing, when Kiaransalee died when her followers were forced to forget her name (via Q'arlynd and his cohorts' actions? Qilue told her people to slay them as opposed to giving them a chance to be saved. Sounds to me more like a directive from Lolth, since doing so allowed the souls of these now-faithless drow to be lost instead of directed towards Eilistraee. Not that many would, but nontheless... And considering how Mask once masqueraded as the weapon Godsbane, used by Cyric, for a time, why not an avatar or aspect of Lolth masquerading as the Crescent Blade? Oh what a tangled web we weave, when upon Eilistraee's Chosen we plan to betray and deceive... :clap: |
| Selvarin09-10-07, 11:48 PM | Yep, Kiaransalee bit the dust that way by having her name stricken from the world's memory (specifically her followers). No followers = no power. No power = bye-bye. I just noticed that the last book, Ascendancy of the Last, comes out on June 2008. A long wait indeed to find out what we'd like to know now. |
| Zanan09-11-07, 05:00 AM | Yep, Kiaransalee bit the dust that way by having her name stricken from the world's memory (specifically her followers). No followers = no power. No power = bye-bye. I just noticed that the last book, Ascendancy of the Last, comes out on June 2008. A long wait indeed to find out what we'd like to know now. The problem with that spell is that it actually went through the faerzress node and going via that adressed only drow (followers) within the Underdark. It could not have affected any undead worshippers / priestesses (immune to the said enchantment spell) and as it is constructed, you do not exactly need a name to be worshipped. Many will have worshipped her as the Revenancer or the Vengeful Banshee and people after the casting still remembered her as the goddess of undeath etc. So there was no mindblanking with her name and thus no killing like what happened to Amaunator during the collapse of Netheril. Thing here is that while probably not conclusively constructed (in rule terms), the spell put an end to Kia on the table. So whatever it actually did in-setting, she was removed from the pantheon for the time being - going by the novel description after the casting. BTW, I noted that most of what is written in the teasers for the three novels is absolutely off-topic. It looks all the way that Halisstra is heavily involved, which she isn't. Neither do Eilistraee's followers fall by her sword in LP II, nor are "deities" targeted. One wonders how far the teaser for LP III is off-topic, dire enough it sounds. |
| Selvarin09-11-07, 06:17 AM | Generally I'm not one to accept a novel's explanation for certain things, but this one is as clear as any. Please re-read page 289-290. As it says there: "The faerzness was their link to Kiaransalee's minions, to the undead who drew their power from the Negative Plane, to the Crones who created those abominations--to the Goddess of Death herself." Furthermore: "In a roundabout way, the inspiration for the enchantment came from Kiaransalee herself. When Q'arlynd had heard Leiliana's story about Kiaransalee erasing Orcus's name from shrines and temples the length and breadth of Faerun...." And on and on. (It's past 3 AM here, read the rest a few pages farther along.) From the description in the book, the undead crones fell first as they were cut off from negative energy. That left the living Crones who couldn't remember her name. Some undead remained but it doesn't indicate they were former worshippers. I will go out on a limb and say any active undead sentient worshippers/followers bit the dust as well and not just at the site of the battle. If there are any left over, they are inconsequential. By cutting a deity off from the energy that sustains them, they are sure to fade. (On a sidenbote there's a sidebar in F&P, page 54, about Lleira's effort to destroy Oghma not by stopping creativity for a day. Not qquite the same but it shows more than one way to skin a cat.) As for the rest, it remains to be seen. Halisstra is so far another pawn in the game but it isn't called the Lady Penitent trilogy for nothing. She has one final (?) act to play. |
| Zanan09-11-07, 08:39 AM | I know what's in the book ... and it doesn't all makes real sense ... (Good Morning, BTW! ;) ). I am merely asking here: And on and on. (It's past 3 AM here, read the rest a few pages farther along.) From the description in the book, the undead crones fell first as they were cut off from negative energy. Which assumed that they all drew power from just one source. That was Q'arylnd'S reasoning, but was it fact? Is faerzress that important? Any half-decent necromancer / cleric can summon / create undead without faerzress or that voidglovbe - which, in essence, only made it easier. I doubt that e.g. Cabrath was created with or via the help of a faerzress-linked negative energy spell? How could the spell, which erased a name (and nothing more), an enchantment, cut someone off a magical source? That left the living Crones who couldn't remember her name. Going by the description, those Crones were all essentially feebleminded, which you would understand had they all been simply demi-mad chaotic evil death-priestesses. But that's hardly the truth of everyone about at the Acropolis. There will have been normale wizards, necromancers, guardians like fighters et al? They don't simply all go mad because they cannot remember their deities name? I mean, it is hardly conceivable that such an event, even the disappearance of the goddess will have any affect on non-divine (and thus directly linked) classes? Thus, all these worshippers remained there - or somewhere across Faerūn. Not a massive desaster as in the case of Amaunator, where his worshippers essentially all died at once. Some undead remained but it doesn't indicate they were former worshippers. I will go out on a limb and say any active undead sentient worshippers/followers bit the dust as well and not just at the site of the battle. If there are any left over, they are inconsequential. We are speaking of about 20% of her faithful (i.e. non-divine casters), which had even increased during the Silence. By cutting a deity off from the energy that sustains them, they are sure to fade. (On a sidenbote there's a sidebar in F&P, page 54, about Lleira's effort to destroy Oghma not by stopping creativity for a day. Not qquite the same but it shows more than one way to skin a cat.) Destroying the voidglobe and cutting of the link to the negative energy created or sustained by that is a localized action. Removing Kiaransalee's name from their worshippers still leaves the memory of "The Revenancer", "The Vengeful Banshee" and the goddess of undeath and vengeance. She may not answer the next day's prayers, as you cannot adress her in name (if required), but that's essentially it. You see, I am not looking for loopholes here, I just stating facts how I view them. It is not exactly relevant, as we know what is intended. I know that what occurred so far was the will of the Wizards, as will be what AotL will bring. On a sidenote, it is interesting to note that Champions of Valor and other sources have failed to give us any Initiate domain of the drow deities bar Eilistraee and Ghaunadaur. Lack of space ... or an omen? Obviously, many people could do well with these domains for games in the past, though who knows what 4E will bring with regards to such rule stuff?! |
| Lord Karsus09-11-07, 10:22 AM | On a sidenote, it is interesting to note that Champions of Valor and other sources have failed to give us any Initiate domain of the drow deities bar Eilistraee and Ghaunadaur. Lack of space ... or an omen? Obviously, many people could do well with these domains for games in the past, though who knows what 4E will bring with regards to such rule stuff?! -What's valorous about the Drow pantheon? ;) -Don't worry, it's not s giant conspiracy. None of the members of the Seldarine recieved Initiate Feats either. I've just rectified the situation, though, as I created Initiate Feats for all members of the Anti-Seldarine and the Seldarine in Elves of Faerūn. |
| MarkusTay6309-11-07, 02:14 PM | I had an Auntie Seldarine... she was married to my Uncle Seldarine... :rolleyes: I'm back to reading novels like mad, but at least I know what series to avoid now. |
| Selvarin09-11-07, 09:06 PM | Novels tend to break old (or premiere/preview new) rules, it's probably best to use what happened as a guide to what is possible. But since I'm still not feeling too 'collected' today I'll just hit this from various angles, starting with: A: Because Faerzness was used a form of conduit. In this instance it's like opening a backdoor in someone's network or coming inside a walled complex through the sewer. It was a means of egress by which to cut the circuits, so to speak. Now I'm not an expert on how deities and their followers are connected but one way to think of the divine name connection is as a DNS name with a static IP address. If you don't have the "name" or the IP how can data (i.e., divine power or negative energy being routed by Kiaransalee to her undead minions/followers/etc.) keep transferring between the two? The 'network' comes to a complete halt, and the network--such as it is--may as well not exist. (At least not the server.) As far as I'm concerned they used the node as a conduit and possibly as a boost for the high magic they wound up performing. The real power came from the lorestones linked to Q'arlynd and his apprentices. Since it apparently did work, this has vast implications for other divine beings. Especially since it went beyond just the Crones, as Cavatina had trouble remembering who she had once thought of slaying--at best she could only rememebr that it was some goddess of death. And if you're that curious about how wiping out a deity's name can do that, perhaps there's something to be found in the old Planescape book "Dead Gods". Now, with regard to wizards...any undead created by them would be unaffected as they were created by arcane means. The Crones (living and undead) created their undead through divine magic from Kiaransalee. They were linked to her--and continuing to be sustained in that fashion--as such, being cut off would disrupt their own energy. As for the Crones being feebleminded by the experiences, that is fair enough. Those who didn't have the link they did with her merely forgot who she was, even "the Revenancer" or other nicknames. Another way to think of it is as a High Magic equivalent of Askashic mind wiping. By wiping her name from the memory of the world they denied her any means to sustain herself. By the way, did the book mention anyone else at the ruined city of V'elddrinnsshar besides the Crones and various undead minions? I read the book once more and it doesn't mention any drow Kiaransaleen sorcerers or wizards involved in any of the battles, nor any other living beings viewed by Karas as he went to the Acropolis. And even if there were, they--like the others--had their mind wiped of her name. So at best there were some surviving necromancers with undead still under their command. The only people capable of remembering Kiaransalee would be those followers who had been plane-hopping at the time, and they wouldn't be enough to bring back even her little toe. I'm not sure if she achieved lesser status officially, but even so her followers numbered in the thousands (not counting unintelligent undead). It does beg the question whether sentient undead worshippers 'count' the same as living worshippers. It wouldn't matter as the energy used to sustain undead linked to Kiaransalee would still have been disrupted, but for general discussion it might be interesting to pursue. With regard to the 'Initiate' feats issue, it is rather interesting but I'd chalk it down to space issues. In the case of CoV, there's only one valorous drow deity so she was included. In the case of CoR, hmmm. Perhaps they decided to spotlight a dark drow deity other than the usual standby. Not sure it matters, since there's only so much room in those books. But I think in 4e there won't be 'initiate' feats. Considering that spell levels will go 1-30, there will be more specialized domains that will include spells favored or specific to the deity in question. The game has too many feats, I'll be glad to see that whittled down to something more reasonable. I know what's in the book ... and it doesn't all makes real sense ... (Good Morning, BTW! ;) ). I am merely asking here: Which assumed that they all drew power from just one source. That was Q'arylnd'S reasoning, but was it fact? Is faerzress that important? Any half-decent necromancer / cleric can summon / create undead without faerzress or that voidglovbe - which, in essence, only made it easier. I doubt that e.g. Cabrath was created with or via the help of a faerzress-linked negative energy spell? How could the spell, which erased a name (and nothing more), an enchantment, cut someone off a magical source? Going by the description, those Crones were all essentially feebleminded, which you would understand had they all been simply demi-mad chaotic evil death-priestesses. But that's hardly the truth of everyone about at the Acropolis. There will have been normale wizards, necromancers, guardians like fighters et al? They don't simply all go mad because they cannot remember their deities name? I mean, it is hardly conceivable that such an event, even the disappearance of the goddess will have any affect on non-divine (and thus directly linked) classes? Thus, all these worshippers remained there - or somewhere across Faerūn. Not a massive desaster as in the case of Amaunator, where his worshippers essentially all died at once. We are speaking of about 20% of her faithful (i.e. non-divine casters), which had even increased during the Silence. Destroying the voidglobe and cutting of the link to the negative energy created or sustained by that is a localized action. Removing Kiaransalee's name from their worshippers still leaves the memory of "The Revenancer", "The Vengeful Banshee" and the goddess of undeath and vengeance. She may not answer the next day's prayers, as you cannot adress her in name (if required), but that's essentially it. You see, I am not looking for loopholes here, I just stating facts how I view them. It is not exactly relevant, as we know what is intended. I know that what occurred so far was the will of the Wizards, as will be what AotL will bring. On a sidenote, it is interesting to note that Champions of Valor and other sources have failed to give us any Initiate domain of the drow deities bar Eilistraee and Ghaunadaur. Lack of space ... or an omen? Obviously, many people could do well with these domains for games in the past, though who knows what 4E will bring with regards to such rule stuff?! |
| Zanan09-12-07, 04:42 AM | By the way, did the book mention anyone else at the ruined city of V'elddrinnsshar besides the Crones and various undead minions? I read the book once more and it doesn't mention any drow Kiaransaleen sorcerers or wizards involved in any of the battles, nor any other living beings viewed by Karas as he went to the Acropolis. Conveniently ommitted. The author obviously used Demihuman Deities for gathering info on the Acropolis and the very same book states that Kiaransalee's clergy inculdes specialty priestes (then Yathrinshee), necromancers, and crusaders, at a ratio of 80 / 12 / 8 percent, all female. Said Yathrinshee were converted to a powerful PrC in the PGtF and, much like the Lolthite-Arachne-PrC (F&P) or the Darkmasks of Vhaeraun (LoD) never saw any use in any novel or other sourcebook so far. In the Yathrinshee's case, they dabble in both the divine and the arcane arts and the lack of powerful spellcasting at the Acropolis (Crones were more intend in using their "claws", for some reason), any protective magic like the standard Forbiddance (regarding teleporting et al) etc. was a bit baffling. Cabrath was at least a Clr 15 and if someone enters my most holy sanctum I'd blast him or her with everything in store ... |
| Lord Karsus09-12-07, 12:43 PM | -A deity is powered by many things, don't forget. Having few or even no worshippers does not mean that a deity will cease to exist, as happened to Kiaransalee, apparently. Asides for thriving off of the power of their worshippers, a deity also exists purly by the power of their domain- what they represent and whatnot. |
| MarkusTay6309-12-07, 01:03 PM | And also obviously, using Kiaransalee as an example, a being can 'sacrifice' tons of people to boost their power level. When you 'do' an entire planet that way, you can even become a god... :devil: |
| Skeptical Clown09-12-07, 02:17 PM | I would assume that Eilistraee shows preference to drow women because they were her province before the fall of of the Drow. Her role as the matron of Good Drow is an adaptation--and is shaped by her previous existence. |
| SmartPaladin09-12-07, 05:09 PM | SmartPaladin, think about this. Besides rule-zeroing what DotU says about half-drow, in 4e they may well correct it. (Shouldn't have to begin with, but hey...). Look at how they're rewriting devils. In Fiendish Codex II the devils are angels who became twisted by their contact with demons, and their ultimate leader was thrown down from the Heavens. In 4e, apparently, they're angels who rebelled and slew their god, for which the plane of existence were on was thrown down as well and became the Hells. (A broad simplification of what's been written but you get the gist of it.) Things change. In any case if they can switch daylight adaptation back from being a regional feat... I just had a problem with them throwing out the darkvision and giving them low light. That just struck me as cutting the Drow out of them (Elven blood grants Half Elves Low light, Drow blood grants Half-Drow Darkvision), so they became more of Half Elves with a really bad tan and/or skin disorder. :P Sorry for going off in my own little direction. :D |
| Gaelin09-12-07, 05:15 PM | Here's some things that have been spinning around in my brain since the game with Eilistraee and Lloth (or Lolth): 1. Ao himself is watching the game. As we all can assume, Ao wouldn't have approved this game if would irrevocably wreck the Balance itself. (Case in point: the Cyrinshad chronicles. Gods cannot and do not arbitarly pass sentence on each other.) So, whatever happens must serve the Balance in some way, shape or form, and does having one drow goddess or god achieve this? 2. I'm sure the game wouldn't be happening if it weren't commencing mostly between two equals. In other words, would it to be safe to assume at this time, on the Realms, Lolth and Eilistraee are of equal power because of the Silence? 3. There are more than the drow deities at stake in one respect. Qilue doesn't just serve Eilistraee, she is one of the Seven Sisters, a Chosen of Mystra. Knowing this, will Mystra stay out of the sava game as it appiles to Qilue? Will Mystra interfere in the sava game at all or just pick her nose as it tends to apply to the drow pantenon directly? And if something should happen to Qilue involving alignment change and/or death, will the other Chosen (of Mystra, not Eilistraee) be or get involved? (Laeral and the Crown of Horns being an example.) 4. Is this game affecting all of the muitiverse or how it corresponds to the Realms? These are drow deities we're revering to, and my have more than one correspondance over all the muitiverse? And will the loser's death really stick? (Bane sure didn't remain dead long.) |
| Selvarin09-12-07, 06:02 PM | I wouldn't read too much into the generic use of the terms 'Crones' and 'Nightshadows', Zanan. I agree if there's any place where there would be divine PrC's such as the Yathrinshee they'd be there. At the same time, of a following of thousands how many Yathrinshee would be among them ,in one place, and of a certain level to count? The drow banshee may as well have been one but we'd hardly know it. A bit inconvenient but the story matters more in the end. Lord Karsus--true enough, but for one with so specific a portfolio it apparently was. another way to see it is that under the rules of their little 'game' if you lose your pieces you lose it all. So under normal rules she would've been on life support but the special rules called for instant dismissal. No instant replay for her. :) Umm, Skeptical Clown, where in the books does it say that? I'm just curious, since either I've missed it or it comes from a source I don't possess. From a practical (or tactical) standpoint, Eilistraee allowing only female priests would make it easier to bring female drow away from Lolth. they would see it as another matriarchy where they fare better, although they'd have to tolerate being nicer to the males. Besides, Vhaeraun in some ways has been the greater threat since they both have fought over largely the same group--dissidents, some of whom are living on the surface. Why make it easier to let some of his spies into Eilistraee's clerical ranks? Of course, now that's all moot. Smart Paladin--no problem. What they did with half-drow in DotU was to try to fix a 'problem' that didn't exist. There's no logical basis for their reasoning that half-drow should only have low-light vision. Giving them 60' darkvision is enough of a limitation considering full-bloods have 120' range. But that is for another thread. :) Here's an interesting thought to consider: What if the conclusion of this game with Lolth is that Eilistraee loses her place among the drow pantheon (instead of her life) and is welcomed back into the Seldarine? |
| Selvarin09-12-07, 06:12 PM | Here's some things that have been spinning around in my brain since the game with Eilistraee and Lloth (or Lolth): 1. Ao himself is watching the game. As we all can assume, Ao wouldn't have approved this game if would irrevocably wreck the Balance itself. (Case in point: the Cyrinshad chronicles. Gods cannot and do not arbitarly pass sentence on each other.) So, whatever happens must serve the Balance in some way, shape or form, and does having one drow goddess or god achieve this? 2. I'm sure the game wouldn't be happening if it weren't commencing mostly between two equals. In other words, would it to be safe to assume at this time, on the Realms, Lolth and Eilistraee are of equal power because of the Silence? 3. There are more than the drow deities at stake in one respect. Qilue doesn't just serve Eilistraee, she is one of the Seven Sisters, a Chosen of Mystra. Knowing this, will Mystra stay out of the sava game as it appiles to Qilue? Will Mystra interfere in the sava game at all or just pick her nose as it tends to apply to the drow pantenon directly? And if something should happen to Qilue involving alignment change and/or death, will the other Chosen (of Mystra, not Eilistraee) be or get involved? (Laeral and the Crown of Horns being an example.) 4. Is this game affecting all of the muitiverse or how it corresponds to the Realms? These are drow deities we're revering to, and my have more than one correspondance over all the muitiverse? And will the loser's death really stick? (Bane sure didn't remain dead long.) 1) and 2) -- It indeed serves the Balance (and the game designers) by wiping away the drow deities that don't matter. I would not say that Lolth and Eilistraee are equal in power, however. Furthermore they're playing for 'all the marbles'--the drow. Perhaps, with distinctions made between drow and 'dark elves' Lolth ends up with the drow and Eilistraee the redeemed dark elves. A matter of semantics, but that would tick Lolth off to no end if she wins, expects to see Eilistraee fade away, and sees her still there. Not only still there but sees the sava table repopulating with her pieces. 3) After this, I suspect Qilue won't be serving anyone. Besides, it's a bit too much of a glaring rule-breaker to have her continue to serve two deities. And Mystra can't get involved. It's a drow matter, and in addition she would be threatening her own position should she lose. It would end up becoming a full-on godswar and that is another reason why Ao is overseeing the match. I guess Laeral could get an inkling and intervene upon Qilue's behalf directly but one problem is the faerzness has already reached the Promenade. That could hinder some things. 4) It's for the Realms--as was pointed out, all setting-neutral/core books dealing with the drow refer only to Lolth. As for Bane, that was easy. Iyactu wasn't big enough to take his father's place, Bane's much more interesting. and so he was brought back. |
| Selvarin09-12-07, 06:42 PM | An interesting tidbit. Prior to choosing banishment in Evermeet, Eilistraee confesses to having an ability to see into the future, the shape of things to come. (Something passed down by Lolth?) Another interesting bit is Corellon telling Vhaeraun to go with his sister into banishment, but that the day he lays a hand on her will be the last day of his life. Hmmmm. |
| SmartPaladin09-12-07, 07:27 PM | An interesting tidbit. Prior to choosing banishment in Evermeet, Eilistraee confesses to having an ability to see into the future, the shape of things to come. (Something passed down by Lolth?) Another interesting bit is Corellon telling Vhaeraun to go with his sister into banishment, but that the day he lays a hand on her will be the last day of his life. Hmmmm. There's a thought. Eilistraee loses the Sava game, fades from the Drow Pantheon, just to reappear in the Elven Pantheon, with her brother Vhaeraun standing next to her remarking about how he didn't see that one coming. Heh, just had an image of Vhaeruan and Erevan Ilesere teaming up to create chaos. :P |
| GothicDan09-12-07, 07:35 PM | And then she becomes best friends with Fenmarel. 1) and 2) -- It indeed serves the Balance (and the game designers) by wiping away the drow deities that don't matter. I would not say that Lolth and Eilistraee are equal in power, however. Furthermore they're playing for 'all the marbles'--the drow. Perhaps, with distinctions made between drow and 'dark elves' Lolth ends up with the drow and Eilistraee the redeemed dark elves. A matter of semantics, but that would tick Lolth off to no end if she wins, expects to see Eilistraee fade away, and sees her still there. Not only still there but sees the sava table repopulating with her pieces. I personally felt that Vhaeraun was a very necessary deity among the Drow pantheon. Kiaransalee, not so much necessary, as much as displaying the realistic results of a multi-planar culture; verisimilitude and all. Oddly enough, the closest thing to the Balance there is in the Realms is AO, who is the one that set up pantheon boundaries that make it very difficult to cross-pollinate in any significant way. So, the Balance says that even though Vhaeraun and Mask are similar (but very different in key ways - like, you know, being Corellon's and Lolth's son, having sincere desires to raise up the Drow as superior beings, and holding strong grudges against females), they both have their places in separated pantheons. So says AO! Might I say again that I hate AO? |
| The Ubbergeek09-12-07, 08:18 PM | Cut AO the rap buddy, he have to deal with some of the biggest spoiled children of the faerunian multiverse. ;):P |
| MarkHall09-12-07, 10:02 PM | There's a thought. Eilistraee loses the Sava game, fades from the Drow Pantheon, just to reappear in the Elven Pantheon, with her brother Vhaeraun standing next to her remarking about how he didn't see that one coming. Heh, just had an image of Vhaeruan and Erevan Ilesere teaming up to create chaos. :P I realize this is probably relevant to something in the novels... but I keep seeing this as "Eilistraee loses her save game", like she lost the memory card, or her little brother erased it or something... |
| Lord Karsus09-13-07, 12:47 AM | An interesting tidbit. Prior to choosing banishment in Evermeet, Eilistraee confesses to having an ability to see into the future, the shape of things to come. (Something passed down by Lolth?) Another interesting bit is Corellon telling Vhaeraun to go with his sister into banishment, but that the day he lays a hand on her will be the last day of his life. Hmmmm. -I've brought this up before. It was poignant... 3) After this, I suspect Qilue won't be serving anyone. Besides, it's a bit too much of a glaring rule-breaker to have her continue to serve two deities. -Why's that? There are plenty of individuals who give homage to one or more deities. Why can't one serve one or more dieites? Lord Karsus--true enough, but for one with so specific a portfolio it apparently was. another way to see it is that under the rules of their little 'game' if you lose your pieces you lose it all. So under normal rules she would've been on life support but the special rules called for instant dismissal. No instant replay for her. :) -As long as there is a Drow who wants revenge for something- and there are plenty of those- Kiaransalee gets that much power. |
| GothicDan09-13-07, 08:46 AM | I realize this is probably relevant to something in the novels... but I keep seeing this as "Eilistraee loses her save game", like she lost the memory card, or her little brother erased it or something... My brain says saliva. |
| DarkSongKnight09-13-07, 10:37 AM | I realize this is probably relevant to something in the novels... but I keep seeing this as "Eilistraee loses her save game", like she lost the memory card, or her little brother erased it or something... LOL! Ao: "Game Over." Eilistraee: " "Drat! I knew I should have jumped that obstacle!" *Notices her brother with the plug in his hand.* Eilistraee: "Vhaeraun! Not again! The last time you did that, Miyeritar was destroyed..." *Eilistraee groans* Vhaeraun: "Huh? Oh... Oopps." *Eilistraee sighs* Eilistraee: "Well, looks like daddy can give us a restart." *Eilistraee makes a phonecall to Big daddy CL. Ao: "Restart?" Eilistraee: "Yes... " I also felt Vhaeraun was an important part of the Drow pantheon. His clergy was also listed as 99% male. Sexy, and quite curious. ;) My hopes are still up that Eilistraee will revive him should she survive the sava game. |
| Lord Karsus09-13-07, 10:58 AM | My hopes are still up that Eilistraee will revive him should she survive the sava game. -That was my original thought as well. Eilistraee absorbed Vhaeraun "temporarily", and will "spit him out" once all of this business is over. Of course, who's to say she actually will go through on that, now? |
| Skeptical Clown09-13-07, 12:03 PM | Umm, Skeptical Clown, where in the books does it say that? I don't know that it does say it anywhere; I'm just using a bit of inductive reasoning. Eilistraee is not simply the deity of Good-aligned drow; she is a goddess of the hunt, song, and dance, and perhaps the moon and (at least indirectly) fertility as well. She existed before the downfall of Araunshee and the Drow, so I assume these aspects of her personality came first. If she was already inclined toward women before she was forced to become the sole drow deity, then her preference may simply be a vestige of her former roles. |
| Selvarin09-13-07, 04:47 PM | There's a thought. Eilistraee loses the Sava game, fades from the Drow Pantheon, just to reappear in the Elven Pantheon, with her brother Vhaeraun standing next to her remarking about how he didn't see that one coming. Heh, just had an image of Vhaeruan and Erevan Ilesere teaming up to create chaos. :P Hmm, I thought I said that with...*looks*...Dang it I thought of that the other day but didn't post one on that. (Good job.) But what a way for Eilistraee to be welcomed home. It would be heartwarming, though. A deific coming-of-age and coming home. Another symbol of the dark elves' redemption. Considering the long storied history of the Melarns--who worshipped Eilistraee before the time they were forced into the Underdark--what we're witnessing is the groundwork for just that. Imagine if, at the end of the match, Lolth gloats and waits for Eilistraee to fade away. She doesn't. Lolth waits...nothing happens. And then a familiar figure materializes behind Eilistraee--Corellon. "Hello, my daughter...and greetings to my former lady." "What is this?!", Lolth shrieks at the darkness above. "What is he doing here?! And why is she still there?!" A smile crept upon the Coronal of Arvandor's face. "It seems that while Eilistraee doesn't have a place among the drow anymore, she does have one among the Seldarine...and the dark elves." Lolth stood up, kicking the chair behind her away. Vomiting spiders at the portal between the two worlds, she spat, "Enough wordplay, my former consort. The drow are dark elves, there is no difference!" "Oh but there is", he said softly as his hand touched upon his daughter's shoulder. "Long ago we allowed the innocent as well as the wicked to be punished, forced to hide from the sun. It was a tragic mistake, but one for which she foresaw could become rectified. And it has through the efforts of her followers--especially one you know quite well. Halisstra." Lolth just stood there, shaking, but her rage kept firmly in check. "That bug was swatted, she won't be coming back." "Ahhh but that is where you're wrong", he countered. Where there is sacrifice there is redemption. Eilistraee knew this, and in the end so did the one you cursed. She is now under my--our protection now." Lolth could bear this no more. Her fist slammed into the table, and from the tremors came new pieces--mighty spiders, grinning demons, and more. They started marching upon what was left of Eilistraee's pieces. Before they could get close enough to overturn and devour them something new popped onto the board. At the flick of Corellon's hand a wall of iron-thorned pieces shaped like trees grew in place, and behind them dark-skinned warriors alongside light-skinned wizard pieces. "I'm sorry but your previous game is over. You won. Now a new game has sprung up, but also one which is as old as you and I." And with that, daughter and father began to walk away. "Soon, you'll be home, as will your people. Except for a certain interloper." And then he stopped. Evoking a gasp from Eilistraee, Corellon tore away the shadowy mask from her face, a mask that was more than merely symbolic. As he pulled, a transcluscent being burst her being. Vhaeraun. "There is no place for you with us, son. You have yet to learn. And for what you wrought upon your sister from within I should strike you down. But I think perhaps I have a better punishment. This!" Corellon threw the dumbstruck god at the portal, at Lolth. He struck it as if hitting a wall, and then slipped straight through. The portal cracked in places but held. "Consider this my gift, Lolth. You may keep that one all to yourself." ~~~~~ Lolth's face, looking at Vhaeraun's prone form, went from disgust to a wicked smile. Speaking aloud as much to herself as to the ever-silent observer above, "Ao...you let this happen. So be it! But the larger game is still in play...and you will not let others meddle in that one." The accusation echoed but was not responded to. How typical, she thought. She lifted Vhaeraun up by his arm, squeezing till it snapped. He grimaced but would not give her the satisfaction of hearing him cry. "What now, Oh dear mother?" He smirked backat her. "Your sister was more mine than you are, but I think I can fix that. It's time I eliminate the weakness that you personify as a male, starting now." "You can't kill what you can't see," and as he spoke his eyes glowed. He became one with the shadows but he didn't fade away fast enough, for as he could still hear his mother's voice, acidic and penetrating. "I didn't say I was going to kill you. Never kill when you can wound. I was never that merciful. Not ever." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (minor fan depiction of that moment, please don't sue me WotC) Perhaps Eilistraee and Erevan can be the king and queen of the prom, too. :D Skep, thanks for clearing that up. Good reasoning since her portfolio or demeanor seems based on the general huntress aspect. |
| That_GD_Drow09-15-07, 12:16 PM | I do not understand why she is so female oriented. First of all, it probably pushes a lot of the males to the worship of Vhaeraun. Secondly, isn't that the sort of thing that the drow are trying to escape from? I think it's a smart set of moves on her part. 1a. The society is directly female oriented already; so she's preaching to get converts from the top of the pile, not the bottom. Smart move. You can get more done that way. 1b. As a female dominated society for ages and generations, most likely the males wouldn't think of being priests. It's just one of those things that "isn't done". Out of sight, out of mind. 1c. Who says the males can function in various other parts of the religion? There are other, non-cleric, clergy roles that could be held for equal effect. Especially now with the varied Prestiges. And they could likely do more without having to hide their particular skill sets compared to the Priestess, who'd stand out like a sore thumb versus her Lolth worshiping counterparts and 2. Not really. I've always seen it as more of a case of them attempting to escape the oppression and violence of the theocracy; not the matriarchy. It isn't the women they've got to worry about, but the evil church. Elves have historically been a culture which reveres the feminine (just look at the Tri-partiate Correllon concept). |
| ElberethSilverleaf09-15-07, 05:12 PM | see next post |
| ElberethSilverleaf09-15-07, 05:12 PM | Like gothicdan said a couple of weeks ago, arbitrary things are what largely defines a religion. They all have rules and traditions. There's nothing preventing a male drow from worshipping any god that finds him and his alignment/ethos acceptable, be it Meilikki, Lathander, Mystra etc. Perhaps even Corellon would accept a male drow as a worshipper. The bottom line is that if you don't like Eilistraee, take your worship elsewhere. |
| Selvarin09-15-07, 05:21 PM | In the (2e) Demihuman Deities book, they said as much. |
| The_Shaman09-15-07, 05:27 PM | There's a thought. Eilistraee loses the Sava game, fades from the Drow Pantheon, just to reappear in the Elven Pantheon, with her brother Vhaeraun standing next to her remarking about how he didn't see that one coming. Heh, just had an image of Vhaeruan and Erevan Ilesere teaming up to create chaos. :P I thought she technically still is a part of the Seldarine. Not overly advertised, perhaps, but unlike the others she hasn't been banished as much as she herself left. |
| Selvarin09-15-07, 05:59 PM | It would be more of a formalized readmittance back from banishment, because drow religions don't generally acknowledge Eilistraee as part of the elven pantheon. If they do acknowledge her she is a drow goddess and thus seen as separate from the Seldarine. Also, there is much truth about the Descent of the Drow which elves are unaware of, or uncomfortable with. A proclamation from the Seldarine to their churches that Eilistraee is now officially a part of them, and that they should be respected and aided, would be a huge wake-up call to The People. |
| GothicDan09-15-07, 07:32 PM | Selvarin, I <3 you now. Fan depiction was wonderful, and not only because I dislike Lolth (in a personal, not abstract game design) way. I really wouldn't mind a return of the Dark Elves, pre-Araushnee corruption. In my opinion, the Drow (as much as I dislike them) really are the only Elven subrace capable of countering the Sun Elves' tendencies of ambition, drive, and greatness. It'd be nice to see the two competing with each other on the same side (hopefully in a friendly, or at least ambivalent manner). Eilistraee's admittance into the Seldarine sparks off all kinds of creative juices in my head. I just see so many interactions with her presence, particularly with Sehanine, Solonor, Fenmarel, and Sheverash. |
| Zandilar09-15-07, 08:09 PM | Heya, Hmm, I thought I said that with...*looks*...Dang it I thought of that the other day but didn't post one on that. (Good job.) But what a way for Eilistraee to be welcomed home. It would be heartwarming, though. A deific coming-of-age and coming home. Another symbol of the dark elves' redemption. Considering the long storied history of the Melarns--who worshipped Eilistraee before the time they were forced into the Underdark--what we're witnessing is the groundwork for just that. Imagine if, at the end of the match, Lolth gloats and waits for Eilistraee to fade away. She doesn't. Lolth waits...nothing happens. And then a familiar figure materializes behind Eilistraee--Corellon. :clap: I really liked this fan depiction of possible events. :) Perhaps I might even use it in my own campaign sometime. :) (You know, like the next time I run a game in the Realms... or something... :D) |
| The Ubbergeek09-15-07, 09:40 PM | Selvarin, I <3 you now. Fan depiction was wonderful, and not only because I dislike Lolth (in a personal, not abstract game design) way. I really wouldn't mind a return of the Dark Elves, pre-Araushnee corruption. In my opinion, the Drow (as much as I dislike them) really are the only Elven subrace capable of countering the Sun Elves' tendencies of ambition, drive, and greatness. It'd be nice to see the two competing with each other on the same side (hopefully in a friendly, or at least ambivalent manner). Eilistraee's admittance into the Seldarine sparks off all kinds of creative juices in my head. I just see so many interactions with her presence, particularly with Sehanine, Solonor, Fenmarel, and Sheverash. Not bad ideas, albeit you would need Lolth somewhere.... maybe as a banished, encroaching but distant evil, in the 'don't seats on your laurels' way. |
| Selvarin09-16-07, 03:38 PM | Selvarin, I <3 you now. Fan depiction was wonderful, and not only because I dislike Lolth (in a personal, not abstract game design) way. I really wouldn't mind a return of the Dark Elves, pre-Araushnee corruption. In my opinion, the Drow (as much as I dislike them) really are the only Elven subrace capable of countering the Sun Elves' tendencies of ambition, drive, and greatness. It'd be nice to see the two competing with each other on the same side (hopefully in a friendly, or at least ambivalent manner). Eilistraee's admittance into the Seldarine sparks off all kinds of creative juices in my head. I just see so many interactions with her presence, particularly with Sehanine, Solonor, Fenmarel, and Sheverash. One big point made in the 2nd book is about Wendonai's demon blood flowing through much of the drow population. Also some discussion among the spirits (or magical constructs?) within the kiira that Q'arlynd was trying to make use of. It's too early for me to whip out that book but there seems to be some significance to it being a factor. Even so, redemption remains open to them as well. And sometimes copying is the greatest compliment. Imagining dark elves and sun elves about to whip each others' butts and then have them stop for a moment then realize they're using weapons based on each others' research. Wonder if Evermeet and Menzoberanzen have patent offices? :P Btw, I do think Vhaeraun is worth keeping as he's one of the few male drow gods with some stake in this, at the same time merging with Eilistraee has resulted in a new form that's just as useful/fascinating. And there's that tendency for the designers to tighten up spots within one pantheon where there's overlap with another. (And furthermore as a side note, while checking the description of Fenmarel Mestarine in Demihuman Deities recently there were tracts in it indicating that drow do tend to be genetically dominant in the long run. So while I'll stick with the game references from way back for simplicity's sake you can now officially hoot and do the "I was right/you were wrong" dance.) Zandilar---muchos gracias! *bows* Ubbergeek--Lolth will always have a place as an everpresent outside force. She's like the witchy former in-law that just won't die or move far enough out of the neighborhood. Can't get rid of her. :D One big question for me is if, by solving the faerzness issue, the redeemable dark elves are freed to escape to the surface or if everyone's affected (as was the case when Liriel performed a certain ritual over in Ruathym many novels ago). Also whether this will do something to all the drowcraft-laden weaponry and armaments. Drow fighting somewhere suddenly discover their blades just don't cut as good as they did a moment before, boy would they be embarrassed! "Hold on, hold on! Time out!...You're supposed to have magic weapons, I'm supposed to have magic weapons. It looks like the radiation batteries on mine went out on it. I need to go get my back-up blades, you want me to bring you something up on the way back? Maybe some fried mushrooms or goblin patte'?" Personally I like the idea of Eilistraee working with Erevan, I even had some places outlined beneath Cormanthor in my own Realms world where he was working his mischief underground. In a way he could take over Vhaeraun's spot and in fact be, oh, I don't know...Eilistraee's consort and fellow mischiefmaker. The problem is he hasn't been tainted yet. He seems strictly a woodland deity for the moment. And yet...he loves chaos. He may find it fun to go slumming in the Underdark, doing something to tweak Lolth's priestesses. He could always change one of her grand cathedrals into a temple of twisted trees and sunshine while unkillable dancing fairies outside sing songs about how Lolth has a big hairy spider's butt that won't fit her knickers anymore. One thing that will change, if Eilistraee goes this route, is that it won't be a battled waged between Lolth--Eilistraee and Lolth--Seldarine. If she's formally accepted back as part of the Seldarine then Lolth may concentrate even more on the surface elves, as the civil war among the drow deities will have been settled. Also, Lolth will ache even more to hurt Eilistraee as it's a two-for-one special. Like a divine custody battle gone wrong and the bad mommy can't beat the little girl, Lolth will be coming at them sideways, in a manner of speaking. |
| Zanan09-16-07, 04:42 PM | While you happily chat along theorizing ... ahem dreaming about the return of the dark elves and the possible acceptance of Eilistraee into the Seldarine: in another thread it was more or less clearly spelled that Wendonai's boasting was just that, boasting. His blood does not run through the "bad" drow as a whole, for even the wildest orgies will not have seen him bedding those thousands of evil females. He corrupted them to the path of Lolth fair and square, of course. And on another note, the novel was indeed pushing the matter a bit. House Melarn a direct descendnat from Miyeritar? Come on. 12,000 years after the Descent, 13,000 after the eradication of Miyeritar? That must be thin line indeed, given that even two or three generations can reduce a fiend's kin to tiefling status. And just don't come along with the elves-age-slower argument. The average drow generation lasts about 150 years (amongst the elite), that's about 80 generations after the Descent. Going by human generations, that would be the same as suddenly finding out that e.g. GothicDan is a direct heir from none other than Alexander the Great (who died 323 BCE, BTW). Aye right! Remember too that the disappearance of the drow deities will not feeblemind and morality undone the drow by default. Do you really imagine that e.g. Jezz the Lame will suddenly fall on his knees and embracing his past, become a fervent follower of Eilistraee? Isn't it more likely that he and others vying for power among the Cormanthor drow will quickly dispatch the "traitor priests"? |
| Selvarin09-16-07, 05:02 PM | Yes, Zanny, that is correct and the book spells that out. (Recall me saying it was a bit too early for me to pull it out for a re-read?) As for the bloodline thing, it's an uncommon but not rare plot thread. So-and-so is the last (or next to last) descendant of so-and-so. A thin line is still a thin line. But how often do drow noble houses move about and interbreed, while we're at it? And what about the drow noble house from the time of Menzoberranzen's founding? So for maybe the second time I will happily carry on with the suspension of my disbelief. :P Btw I once knew an Aussie whose bloodline could be traced to Ghengis Khan. Not as far back as Alexander but hey. :P |
| Zanan09-16-07, 05:20 PM | Zanny? You are right, drow noble houses do not tend to interbreed, they destroy each other, more often than not 100%. Thus, the chance of survivors is even less likely. BTW, Menzo was founded some 5,000 years after the Descent. BTW (II), I am inclined not to embark on another demi-hypthetical debate of what might have happen and what might have happened, for LP III is bound to tear it all apart. Thanks to some Wizardly decisions. |
| Selvarin09-16-07, 05:51 PM | At this point, Zan, all we can do is throw out hypotheticals we like or dislike. Otherwise what's the point in having the messageboards, to wait until we're being force-fed? Or for another blog posting on how the new 4e rules are holding up in playtesting? So some of this--or none of this--will come to pass. I like to be hopeful but the other side is to be downbeat and figure Wizards will ruin everything. All we really know in the meantime is that the drow and their 'pantheon' are being repositioned ahead of 4th Edition. And it could be as awful as Eilistraee's death (which would be idiotic) or something less severe but no less profound. I'm sure some of us have insider knowledge, it must kill for those people to be unable to share what they know. |
| GothicDan09-16-07, 06:08 PM | I win! Ahem. |
| Selvarin09-16-07, 07:40 PM | In 2e, yes. :P It could be a 55/45 or 60/40 thing, and even so they cleared that up in 3.*. But there's room for both. :D |
| Lord Karsus09-16-07, 11:13 PM | I win! Ahem. -Cause you're a direct descendant of Alexander the Great. Btw I once knew an Aussie whose bloodline could be traced to Ghengis Khan. Not as far back as Alexander but hey. :P -Something like 8% of all Asian men are related to Ghengis Khan. What a guy... |
| Selvarin09-17-07, 01:16 AM | Actually an ex-gf of mine but yep Ghengis sure got around. I wonder how many will be proud to claim their lineage to Carrot Top 400+ years from now? :P (way off-topic) |
| johnkretzer09-19-07, 06:35 AM | I do not understand why she is so female oriented. First of all, it probably pushes a lot of the males to the worship of Vhaerun. Secondly, isn't that the sort of thing that the drow are trying to escape from? This has never bothered me...perhaps it a perspective that clergy is a repersentive of power(which it is), but it is also service of your fellow worshipers of your god or goddess(certainly truer of your good faiths). Also with a gods connection to a cleric...I laways thought of it as a deeper personal bond it seems natural to me that female deities would perfer female clerics and male deities would feel greater bond with male clerics. I never don't took as a sign of evil for a god to have these kinds of restrictions. Especialy with Eilistraee whose doctrine does not include the opression of men and is generaly non-evil. Also as a side note Lolth does allowed male cleric...they are just stuck under a glass ceiling. In 1st atleast they could never attain a level above 7th. |
| SmartPaladin09-19-07, 12:19 PM | This has never bothered me...perhaps it a perspective that clergy is a repersentive of power(which it is), but it is also service of your fellow worshipers of your god or goddess(certainly truer of your good faiths). Also with a gods connection to a cleric...I laways thought of it as a deeper personal bond it seems natural to me that female deities would perfer female clerics and male deities would feel greater bond with male clerics. I never don't took as a sign of evil for a god to have these kinds of restrictions. Especialy with Eilistraee whose doctrine does not include the opression of men and is generaly non-evil. Also as a side note Lolth does allowed male cleric...they are just stuck under a glass ceiling. In 1st atleast they could never attain a level above 7th. Yes they could. They just had to get a magic "sex change". Like Eil when he was still starting out under the second Mystra (Or was Eil on top? ;)). If your in a church that requires you to give up your sex, which, depending, could be your very identity. That in and over it's self I find to be someone evil and cruel. It's the same slap in the face that Lolthites give to every male. The only real difference? Your being slapped with the velvet glove, instead of being beaten with the whip. Just once, I'd like to a male Drow or Half Drow Cleric of Eilistraee flat out say no to the change. If Eilstraee wants him to change, then she'll have to come before him and tell him herself. Until then, he'll just continue serving her the same way he always has been. He's probably already given hope of ever joining in any of the dances with the other Clerics, probably isn't allowed to sing ether. The most he can do, is play the flute for Eilistraee's faithful. That's pretty much it. |
| Selvarin09-19-07, 03:38 PM | Yes they could. They just had to get a magic "sex change". Like Eil when he was still starting out under the second Mystra (Or was Eil on top? ;)). If your in a church that requires you to give up your sex, which, depending, could be your very identity. That in and over it's self I find to be someone evil and cruel. It's the same slap in the face that Lolthites give to every male. The only real difference? Your being slapped with the velvet glove, instead of being beaten with the whip. Just once, I'd like to a male Drow or Half Drow Cleric of Eilistraee flat out say no to the change. If Eilstraee wants him to change, then she'll have to come before him and tell him herself. Until then, he'll just continue serving her the same way he always has been. He's probably already given hope of ever joining in any of the dances with the other Clerics, probably isn't allowed to sing ether. The most he can do, is play the flute for Eilistraee's faithful. That's pretty much it. Just never made any sense to me, why Eilistraee would require that. If so then her female priestesses should also change into men for a week into seeing how it is living under the heels of a matriarchal society--which is why I don't use any of that in my own campaign. For all her goodness, at least in 3.5, Eilistraee has been seen as favoring the women, so if she wants equality now then that practice should be dropped. Otherwise my male drow characters aren't inclined to serve within or assist a 'traditional' Eilistraeen enclave. (One does but has also made it known what he thinks of this, and in fact places the blame upon the narrow-mindedness of the high priestesses themselves.) |
| johnkretzer09-19-07, 04:15 PM | Yes they could. They just had to get a magic "sex change". Like Eil when he was still starting out under the second Mystra (Or was Eil on top? ;)). If your in a church that requires you to give up your sex, which, depending, could be your very identity. That in and over it's self I find to be someone evil and cruel. It's the same slap in the face that Lolthites give to every male. The only real difference? Your being slapped with the velvet glove, instead of being beaten with the whip. Just once, I'd like to a male Drow or Half Drow Cleric of Eilistraee flat out say no to the change. If Eilstraee wants him to change, then she'll have to come before him and tell him herself. Until then, he'll just continue serving her the same way he always has been. He's probably already given hope of ever joining in any of the dances with the other Clerics, probably isn't allowed to sing ether. The most he can do, is play the flute for Eilistraee's faithful. That's pretty much it. Ok here is a question do you worship a deity for the power(spells) or do you worship her because her portfolio matchs what is in your heart? If it is the power then I suggest that you look into one of the more darker powers. Also plewase note Elistraee doesn't promote woman rule in everything. She just feels more comfortable with women...shrug. |
| Selvarin09-19-07, 04:55 PM | Considering the issue of gender (in)equality in drow society, it's a bit of an issue. And there's a difference between a female deity in a (passive or pronounced) patriarchal society trying to get men within her faithful's ranks to get more 'in touch' with the feminine side than a female in a matriarchal society trying to do the same. Just doesn't make much sense. |
| Zandilar09-19-07, 08:12 PM | Heya, Just once, I'd like to a male Drow or Half Drow Cleric of Eilistraee flat out say no to the change. If Eilstraee wants him to change, then she'll have to come before him and tell him herself. Until then, he'll just continue serving her the same way he always has been. He's probably already given hope of ever joining in any of the dances with the other Clerics, probably isn't allowed to sing ether. The most he can do, is play the flute for Eilistraee's faithful. That's pretty much it. Just once? Hmm... I was trying to come up with a humorous exchange, basically the likes of... Male Initiate refuses to become female for the initiation ceremony, Priestess tries to explain it's necessary, and Eilistraee, in the end, turns him away from the clergy... But it didn't quite work out, got too aggressive, and didn't feel right. But honestly, a god grants your character spells, the character can't cast those spells without the favour of the deity. If you tick a deity off (like you'd do by telling her, essentially, I won't jump through your hoops), they're not likely to be sympathetic. The way things are right now, a male hoping to become a cleric of Eilistraee must assume female form occasionally. That doesn't mean they need to assume female form every time they have a ritual dance or ceremony... It just means they need to assume female form from time to time, in order to advance through the clergy (the higher up, the longer they must stay in female form). However, with the changes in the LP series, it looks like male clerics are going to be able to serve without jumping through those hoops for much longer. Even if she ditches the mask and Vhaeraun aspects at the end of the LP series, I think this will be used to explain her open acceptance of male clerics without hoop jumping. In any event, Eilistraee is not the only deity with gender bias. I don't see people jumping up and down because Sune has a heavy bias towards females, or Loviatar (and the list goes on)... |
| Selvarin09-19-07, 10:51 PM | Because Ed says that she requires her male priests to do so? I don't subscribe to Edisms unless they feel right or add something substantial to the story or campaign, therefore: ~ Rule-0 ~ Rule 0 ~ Rule 0 ~ Rule 0 ~ Rule 0 ~ Rule 0~ Perhaps the better question to ask is "Does using that with drow Eilistraee priests in your campaign add 'flavor' or does it get on people's nerves? I noticed there aren't any priesthoods which specifically say (for example) that female initiates must provide, um, housecleaning services for male priests. The deal with Eilistraee would strike me just as odd because it's being instituted due to a real/percieved gender role issue. As for Sunites, etc., yep. To some extent it's true and yet what special requirements are called for with regard to males? Do they prohibit/restrict males or do is there merely a higher ratio of women in the clergy? Sexism or gender preference is nothing new, but c'mon. The only lesson I see from this is that somehow males who serve Eilistraee don't truly 'understand' unless they switch to being women from time to time. If so then let Tempus make his female clerics wear mustaches and develop voices deep enough to sing in barbershop quartets. :P |
| DarkSongKnight09-19-07, 11:44 PM | The only lesson I see from this is that somehow males who serve Eilistraee don't truly 'understand' unless they switch to being women from time to time. What if they're really feminine males? Hmmm? :D |
| Selvarin09-20-07, 03:42 AM | What if they're really feminine males? Hmmm? :D Are you saying only girly drow males worship Eilistraee? That the real men of the species hang with Vhaeraun while the other sort prefer to have slumber parties and talk about their feelings? Well I can see why Vhaeraun had to merge with Eilistraee, to add a boost of testosterone to the bunch. Now they're competing with the ladies during the Hunt, kicking posteriors and taking names. And teabagging after each success. :schemes: |
| Zanan09-20-07, 04:31 PM | As opposed to the Lady Penitent novels, TGHotR is quite definite regarding the life status of Selvetarm, Kiaransalee, and Vhaeraun. Not that the novels were that hard to understand either. Anyway, faiths which follow certain rules regarding their clergy are not that uncommon. Having - in our case - a strictly female clergy (e.g. Lolth*) does not mean that there are no members of the opposite gender praying to or doing everything imaginable to appease her etc. pp.. *BTW, in real life, there is the church (Rome HQ et al) which also has certain gender ... guidelines. Doesn't stop a few billion ... well, you know. |
| Zandilar09-20-07, 08:21 PM | Heya, *BTW, in real life, there is the church (Rome HQ et al) which also has certain gender ... guidelines. Doesn't stop a few billion ... well, you know. Exactly. Some sects of said religion have embraced women priests, but most haven't (especially the specific sect to which Zanan was referring). Changes don't happen fast, people (no matter how fast the designers/developers at WotC seem to think they do). I don't want to level accusations of transphobia here, but I think most of the guys are uncomfortable with the idea of their manly men having to become womanly women (no matter that it's not permanent) in order to be a member of the clergy of Eilistraee. That's because in the Real World there's so much stigma attached to the idea... Society seems to say that it's degrading for a man to be seen as feminine. I'm going to leave it at that. I know this will have rubbed some people up the wrong way, but I hope that it makes at least some of you think. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-20-07, 08:32 PM | I think there's truth to what you say, Zandilar. At least, according to my own experience with men.:) |
| Selvarin09-20-07, 09:58 PM | I just got that book today, Zanan. And yes the fates of Kiaransalee, Selvetarm, and Vhaeraun are spelled out for us slow-minded types. But really when it comes to novels one can never trust the author until the last word is published. Part of the fun for an author is tossing out a few red herrings along the way. And yes, surprise, many churches today have specific roles for parishioners, etc., based upon their gender. In some cases it's based on centuries-old biases brought into being by certain philosophers. The uncleanliness or secondary worth of one sex compared to another, etc. etc. etc...and not necessarily what's written between the pages of a divine text. Fighting that in some religions will get you excommunicated, in others stoned or worse. But in my mind, at least, I thought of Eilistraee as a more egalitarian goddess, and that as much as her main fight is against Lolth and the evils she promotes in drow society one of the 'lesser evils' is the secondary status placed upon male drow, not to mention other races. But that culturally driven-in prejudice is hard to fight so she's had to choose her cultural battles carefully so as not to alienate one side or the other. In order to be more accessible to the the females (whom are more likely to take the clerical route due to culture preferences) she's had to soft-peddle the issue of a more gender-neutral society. And all this is separate from the gender-change requirement, which is lame no matter how it's looked at. It adds nothing to the religion, doesn't add anything. It's like a miscellaneous chemical added to a diet drink. Zip. *chucks it* But while I'm at it, after having read the and of the GHotR, two points come to mind: A) Either the final showdown between Lolth and Eilistraee is being held back or it's going where some have suspected...A never-ending match between the two, with each individual drow to decide. If it's the latter, yay. It fits. B) What is it with killing Mystra? Must be the 4th time. She's becoming the 'Kenny' of the Realms. They really are going all-out in reworking the pantheons, if one looks at the dwarves for an example. |
| Zandilar09-21-07, 12:10 AM | Heya, But in my mind, at least, I thought of Eilistraee as a more egalitarian goddess, and that as much as her main fight is against Lolth and the evils she promotes in drow society one of the 'lesser evils' is the secondary status placed upon male drow, not to mention other races. But that culturally driven-in prejudice is hard to fight so she's had to choose her cultural battles carefully so as not to alienate one side or the other. In order to be more accessible to the the females (whom are more likely to take the clerical route due to culture preferences) she's had to soft-peddle the issue of a more gender-neutral society. And all this is separate from the gender-change requirement, which is lame no matter how it's looked at. It adds nothing to the religion, doesn't add anything. It's like a miscellaneous chemical added to a diet drink. Zip. *chucks it* Well it depends on what angle you look at things, Selvarin. Is a gender biased society inherently evil? If that's the case, then we better tell the good folk of Comyr (yes, I know that the most powerful people in Cormyr are currently women, but that's only for lack of men who are the right age. Once Azoun V comes of age, Alusair will step gracefully aside for him) - since that is definitely a patriarchal society! Then we have the argument that Eilistraee is very much a deity in the same vein as Diana or Artemis. Both deities were pretty much exclusively served by women. Whether that is relevant or not, I suppose is the argument. As Eilistraee is a moon deity, she's tied to the idea of the feminine cycle (unless someone can tell me that a women's menstrual cycle works differently on Abeir-Toril, and back that up with canon evidence). Therefore it isn't really that hard to believe that some of Eilistraee's "Mysteries" are very female centric, and can really only be understood by someone who has intimate experience with what it means to be female. Which is why there's a gender restriction. However, having said that, there is absolutely nothing wrong with male Drow worshiping her. Also, she does grant spells to male rangers, and male Drow do receive dream visions and the like from her from time to time (as ALL Drow do!), so it's not like they're completely out in the cold. Personally, I'm rather surprised that there aren't more deities with gender exclusive clergies (or even deities with two separate hierarchies for males and females!) in Faerun. B) What is it with killing Mystra? Must be the 4th time. She's becoming the 'Kenny' of the Realms. They really are going all-out in reworking the pantheons, if one looks at the dwarves for an example. :rofl: OMG they killed Mystra!! You Bastards! :D |
| Selvarin09-21-07, 12:46 AM | No, it isn't inherently evil but in the case of the drow the males are pretty much looked-down upon. When the loss of a few males = an almost insignificant loss, that says something. Also, likewise, a society where women are not only relegated to the back seat but are undesireable to the point of infanticide, well...that says something too. The drow are meant to be a reverse mirror of mainstream elvenkind. Wheras one is more gender-neutral, the other is decidedly not. And Eilistraee seems to prefer something more 'elven' for the drow but it doesn't have to be exactly like that. So I accept the idea of things being different for Eilistraee's people. And let me emphasize I don't have a problem with Eilistraee's clergy being more feminine or being comprised of more females. My problem is with the "in order to join you gotta be a girl every once in a while" thing. It doesn't work, doesn't sound right, and it's silly. It makes my eyes roll ad infinum and it doesn't matter if Joe Shmoe or a great author wrote that up, it is what it is. My opinion will not change. The 'guy has to be a girl' thing is just an off-note in an otherwise decent melody. I will not deny the Artemis/Diana connection, it's been said before how closely she resembles the archetype. And the menstrual-moon thing, no contest. I don't believe I've argued against that. But again I don't see how that would justify a gender change for the men who swear an oath to serve her. I think most would settle for the imaginary feeling of cramps or bloating 5 days a month as opposed to becoming a full woman anyway. Man and woman (drow) were not meant to share a Kotex moment. :D Actually in 2E FR there was more about gender requirements, restrictions, or male/female ratios. Lolth and Eilistraee were almost exceptions when it came to updating all the pantheons to 3.*. That is what struck me, in that they virtually eliminated gender as an issue, ostensibly for more player options. |
| GothicDan09-21-07, 01:16 AM | I don't think that total lack of individual preferences implies egalitarianism. Basically, it's part of the religious experience of Eilistraee that her clergy know what it's like to be tied to the natural cycles of the moon, in a way that is not only deeply culturally imprinted in the society, but there might well be more magical or supernatural things behind it, too. We know that males and females behave, think, and feel VERY differently, in ways that are physiologically and neurologically ingrained. To me, this feels way too much like complaining about equality when you're not hired to play Martin Luther King Jr. "just because you're white." |
| Selvarin09-21-07, 02:11 AM | Again it is the 'how' and I don't particularly care for the 'how' that has been presented. It's like the rock 'em-sock 'em drow baby thing printed in a Dragon magazine. (#298? #289?) In the one article an unrelated author stated that pregnancies for drow result in twins and that one fights (and kills) the other sometime prior to actual birth. It was silly, it was outright laughable, and there was no way I could take any of it seriously afterward. If it kills my suspension of disbelief then I will forever after mock it. So if Eilistraee wants male drow clerics to share a woman's mind for a day and feel what it's like to be as close to her own 'rhythm', OK fine. But the thing about physically changing gender is a schtick and I've seen it in previous writings, just like the wizard inkeeper in every other tavern or festhall. Doesn't work for me, never will. |
| GothicDan09-21-07, 02:18 AM | Eh. I guess since my pet culture - the Norse one - had more than a few references to sex-changes (either physically or socially), it seems perfectly suitable to me for divine matters. |
| Selvarin09-21-07, 03:08 AM | Let me guess, Thor dressing up as a woman in order to break up a wedding of the Vanir, or to get past a patrol? Things like that? My mythology's rusty but I used to study the Norse, the Greeks, and so on. (A lonnnnng time ago, mind you.) And there's no problem with that, gender is interchangeable when it comes to the gods. It's like with Corellon Larethian, for the most part 'he' (outside of the Realms) has been a bit androgynous. But there are other ways to impart or encourage the same thing. For instance, let's say this: "Eilistraee's clerics have been exclusively female since time immemorial, but this changed in recent years after former Vhaeraunites were brought into the fold. There is neither shame nor stigma attached to being a male or a former Vhaeraun follower, despite what some old-liners may desire. Some, however, wish to be closer to their goddess and will either masquerade as a female drow or actually use magic in order to become one for a time. This is no different than a follower of the Maimed God (Ilmater) choosing to fast for a week in order to feel the deprivation that those he's championed have endured, yet it is not a requirement of the faith." It's close to the original intent but isn't an entry requirement. Considering how large Vhaeraun's following was in comparison to Eilistraee's, those who didn't wander off looking for a better fit and chose to 'go along' would still be a sizable percentage. A little give-and-take should keep both sides happy, even those who believe males couldn't possibly be as close to the Masked Lady as they are. |
| GothicDan09-21-07, 07:53 AM | Loke's also turned into females before. Including turning into a female giant horse, getting bred by a giant stallion, and then giving birth to Sleipnir. And Odin's displayed some VERY transgendered characteristics himself, particularly when it came to traditional trances and spellcasting (practicing something more like Seidh, an often-tantric shaman-like magic overseen largely by Freya). And, as you said, your suggestion could be another way to do it, but you're inferring that the very idea of what Eilistraee actually does is silly, with no actual references to canon contradictions in lore or theme. You seemed to be asking us to appeal to common sense, when there's nothing literary or nonsensical inherent in the idea that would invalidate its merit. Of course, I still also assert that one of the hallmarks that separates religion from ritual is arbitrariness. |
| Zanan09-21-07, 08:37 AM | PS: Do keep in mind that we speak of Vhaeraun-priests only. I for one really doubt that the rest of Vhaeraun-tainted society, all those rogues and wizards and sorcerers like Jezz will suddenly shift their allegiance to the Dark Maiden - whom they fought for aeons (not least on behalf of Vhaeraun). The normal drow reaction would be to dispose of the culprits (Jezz knew) and take up their positions too. Maybe adopt a similar deity - like Mask, who was hiding in Vhaeraun's shadow anyway, as LoD told us long ago. So, slayings of deities does not need to result in massive cultural change as well. |
| GothicDan09-21-07, 11:38 AM | I agree that Mask would be more likely to pick up Vhaeraun's followers than Eilistraee, especially considering he's do so covertly, and most likely under the guise of a reincarnated/renewed/oops-I-tricked-you Vhaeraun form. Or Shar. But if it was Shar's doing (which I'd prefer), i wouldn't want to know about it. I'd want it to LOOK like it was Mask's doing; she'd pin it on him. One of my biggest gripes about the flavor change of 3E was them using Shar as a poster child for evil, and sort of completely thematically negating her flavor by telling us so many of her long-term/big plots and secrets. |
| DarkSongKnight09-21-07, 02:25 PM | Well, my male drow assumes female form from time to time. He is required to spend a week in female form for cleric levels 1-3, two weeks for 4-7, and a month for higher levels. He isn't required to be in female form to dance, sing, participate in the Evensong, the High Hunt, a Run, or even cast his cleric spells and such, but merely to advance in his clerical powers. It makes great Role-Playing opportunities. I've had NPCs and even other party members ask "why" he does it, and his response is this. "It is a ritual of my faith, just like any other. The ritual of the Changedance garners me more respect from the female followers of the Goddess, as they see it as a mark of devotion. It is more than that however. It allows me to become closer to Eilistraee, and that is something that both She and I desire. The closer I become to the Goddess, and the more I understand Her, the greater ability I have to serve Her." And when he means "closer," he means via the feminine power of the moon. Its always amusing to see how new players respond when the attractive female drow they've been flirting with shifts into an equally attractive male. :D "Do you love me now?!" |
| Selvarin09-21-07, 03:43 PM | Yes, I still think it's silly to require a gender change. I make no bones about it. But there's a way to make both sides happy and this is one way to say to someone wanting to play an Eilistraeen cleric, "Yes, some do this...but it's optional." So the original idea is still in place and can thus be seeded in the game but it isn't a 'her way or the highway' scenario. It's a way to provide that flavor without force-feeding. And in the end it's what you want to make the campaign world work for you. Sometimes the mountain can move for Mohammed. Yep, a lot of Vhaeraun's former followers would've sheared off and found a new patron. I'd prefer Mask over Shar, She's too big for her britches and her nhillism ultimately make her boring (to me at least, aside from the Shadow Weave). Shar's been overused to the point of a cliche. Mask, on the other hand, has been long overdue on getting a power boost and I don't mind seeing him pick up a few drow. It'll almost be like old times for them. And then we'll have a new dynamic, The Masked Lady vs. The Lord of Shadows. |
| Zanan09-21-07, 06:13 PM | One day, our DarkSong Knight will be able to play a really good succubus, incubus, erinnye fiend of corruption, fey'ri, or brachina devil ... with all this shapechanging ;) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-21-07, 06:29 PM | Yes, I still think it's silly to require a gender change. I don't recall reading that male clerics of Eilistraee have to permanently change genders. I recall that they must spend a lot of time as a female, but that's not the same thing. |
| Selvarin09-21-07, 07:24 PM | I don't recall reading that male clerics of Eilistraee have to permanently change genders. I recall that they must spend a lot of time as a female, but that's not the same thing. I never said it was permanent yet I still don't agree with it. But for fairness' sake let's bring in a pirate god who requires temporary twig-n'-berries for the ladies so they'll be more in tune with the 'soul of a pirate' because, after all, pirates do it for...the treasure. Yeah. :twocents: Personally it would be more in character for Sharess or some other related being to be into this sort of thing. Now for some random thoughts: In truth, in 3e Lolth only allows female clerics whereas with Eilistraee's entry in F&P (and the FRCS) there was no mention of such restriction, merely when it came to trying to qualify for the sword dancer PrC. As it stands, if something isn't in a novel or game product adds to it, great. But for now it's an optional additive like cinammon or paprika. It's great that an esteemed author continues to add stuff in here and there regarding the Masked Lady, etc., but there's also a reason why it hasn't been written in stone. The gender-switching thing is the least of it, and it is much easier to add than to have to take away from an officially-printed text. |
| GothicDan09-21-07, 10:42 PM | I never said it was permanent yet I still don't agree with it. But for fairness' sake let's bring in a pirate god who requires temporary twig-n'-berries for the ladies so they'll be more in tune with the 'soul of a pirate' because, after all, pirates do it for...the treasure. Yeah. You know, Selvarin, for as intelligent a debater as I think you are (big compliment from me!), I think you're just totally irrational on this one. ;) |
| Selvarin09-21-07, 11:05 PM | Well sometimes I'm known to say something patently absurd to illustrate the absurdity that I find to be...absurd. (Sorry, an Austin Powers moment there.) But I am equal opportunity and it would be funny to have a god which required some symbolic 'switch' during certain festivals. Perhaps those worshipping the god of korreds would require the wearing of ceremonial beards and a waist-sheath in order to sing along at the drum dances. ;) With that being said, this thread (as with several others) runs between several versions of the Realms: The 'Official' Realms (OFR), Ed's Realms (EFR), and how it works locally in our games (LFR). In some ways I've been arguing about the second version as if it was actually the first, but the OFR is the baseline most gamers start from. The rest is just extra, although it does get padded in here and there within some novels. |
| GothicDan09-21-07, 11:19 PM | I actually WOULDN'T object if you had said Tempus, you know. Males are far more likely to become violent, neurologically. (Go ahead, Femi-Nazis. I dare you to argue. Wanna' fight? I'll whip out the science journals and beat you with them.) Actually, that'd be a pretty good idea, and it makes sense. Just to give a foil to Eilistraee's requirements. ;) |
| Selvarin09-22-07, 12:03 AM | Tempus would work, especially in the North. Indeed, competing teams wearing caricatures of the others' outfits. Men with mops on their head and tin cups on their breastplates while their female counterparts roust about with hemp beards and drinking horns attached to their codpieces. The deal with the former Vhaeraunites would be highly amusing for those of Erevan Ilesere's. A few of the rowdier ones could show up in disguise to deliver their 'sympathies', better yet play along when they know some have switched over. Something like, "Hello there. I saw you in the woods and thought I'd drop by...No, no, don't get up. I brought some tea, do you like tea? No? well OK...You know you're a strapping young 'lass' of the Masked Lady's faith and I was thinking...oh no, that's okay. No, really! I'll find my way out myself! *hears the whiz of a blade passing through the air* "It was nice chatting with you. Call me!" (no phones, of course, but you get the point) I'd definitely wish Erevan's pranks on a few. :devil: Or maybe some of his folks prancing around dressed in drag, maybe tease the Eilistraeens into making them the choice of their next Hunt. (Sometimes I see Erevan's bunch as a gaggle of schoolboys and schoolgirls, really cheeky.) |
| Zandilar09-22-07, 12:44 AM | Heya, No, it isn't inherently evil but in the case of the drow the males are pretty much looked-down upon. When the loss of a few males = an almost insignificant loss, that says something. Also, likewise, a society where women are not only relegated to the back seat but are undesireable to the point of infanticide, well...that says something too. Admittedly, there aren't too many patriarchies in Faerun that go in for the infanticide of female babies. However, Eilistraee doesn't prescribe infanticide of male babies. So compare Eilistraee to Cormyr, and Lolth... well she (and the society she promotes) is very troubling from a feminist perspective. My problem is with the "in order to join you gotta be a girl every once in a while" thing. It doesn't work, doesn't sound right, and it's silly. It makes my eyes roll ad infinum and it doesn't matter if Joe Shmoe or a great author wrote that up, it is what it is. My opinion will not change. The 'guy has to be a girl' thing is just an off-note in an otherwise decent melody. This sounds very much like unthinking/instinctual transphobia. I'm not saying that you are, but so far you haven't been able to articulate why you feel it's wrong beyond "it doesn't feel right". I will not deny the Artemis/Diana connection, it's been said before how closely she resembles the archetype. And the menstrual-moon thing, no contest. I don't believe I've argued against that. But again I don't see how that would justify a gender change for the men who swear an oath to serve her. I think most would settle for the imaginary feeling of cramps or bloating 5 days a month as opposed to becoming a full woman anyway. Man and woman (drow) were not meant to share a Kotex moment. :D Except that when someone is polymorphed, they become what they're polymorphed into. Take Polymorph Any Object - the duration of a gender change (same species to same species) is permanent. That means that unless someone casts Dispel Magic, or the original caster dismisses the spell, the change is permanent. You could spend your entire life in the new form, if you didn't get it dispelled. Now, why is this relevant? Because it isn't just a case of a male drow putting on a pretty frock... When we're talking magic, that male drow, for all intents and purposes, becomes completely female... And as such gains a more intimate understanding of what it is to be female. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt you'd have this problem is we were talking about, oh.. Vhaeraun requiring any female drow wanting to serve as a cleric to become a male for short periods of time. As I mentioned above, in our society, a man who is seen as feminine is derided, but a woman being seen as masculine is largely a non-issue. (ie: women are quite free to wear men's clothes with barely a comment (some sorts of clothes might get the word lesbian (or worse - starts with d ends in yke, and is censored on this board) leveled at them), while men cannot ever wear a dress or a skirt (unless it's a kilt).) Actually in 2E FR there was more about gender requirements, restrictions, or male/female ratios. Lolth and Eilistraee were almost exceptions when it came to updating all the pantheons to 3.*. That is what struck me, in that they virtually eliminated gender as an issue, ostensibly for more player options. Some people would argue that it was only Lolth that kept her restrictions... But flicking through Faiths and Pantheons, many deities still have gender biases in their clergy (Loviatar and Sune spring to mind straight away, though the gap in Sune's clergy has narrowed significantly). Eilistraee, on the other hand, many people said the gender restriction didn't exist any more since it wasn't mentioned in her entry at all). Anyway, I now have to dash... So this post is probably a bit rough and in need of editing and smoothing... I hope I haven't been insulting, since that wasn't my intention! |
| Miryana09-22-07, 03:06 AM | Males are far more likely to become violent, neurologically. (Go ahead, Femi-Nazis. I dare you to argue. Wanna' fight? I'll whip out the science journals and beat you with them.) Why do you think that term is fine for casual use? It's been such fun to be compared to the people who embody evil in the 20th century when I've mentioned that superheroines get treated as eye candy more than superheroes do (for example, recently Wonder Woman's ass filled a cover, but there was a terrible outcry when a superhero's anatomy wasn't Ken Doll enough for male fans but actually, gasp, somewhat realistic). Why do you want to use a word that tends to be part of hate-filled speeches against women who say anything to criticise a hobby with a mostly male fanbase, such as comics or D&D? I wouldn't use derogatory terms to refer to gay or non-white people or equate gay or black rights activists with Nazis. I know this is somewhat off-topic, but I absolutely loathe that word and the way it's used. I've seen many men use the slightest comments about sexism to start terrible tirades about the way men are oppressed by feminism (defined by them as anything that would require them to acknowledge the fact that women face certain obstacles in society and, in the case of the particular fandom where I've seen this word in frequent use, love comics but would still like a break from constant superheroine T&A displays). Please, I would ask you to try to refrain from using that word in the future. I don't believe it improves your arguments or jokes, and it connects you to the idiots who believe that deviation from traditional male/female norms is not just unlikely but perverted. Rather ironic, as in this thread you're saying that temporary sex changes would make sense for followers of certain D&D religions. |
| johnkretzer09-22-07, 03:21 AM | I think becoming a woman to be able to get spells from any deity is strange to me. But not silly. Shrug personaly I ignore that sidestep. Because it seemed someting unnatural...(again I am not trying to offend any trans). I mean I have had characters who have their genders changed before, heck in Eberron I played a Changeling who did it at a drop of the hat. I guess i can see it as a sacrifice in joining the faith as a sign of devotion.( sorta like some monks giving up all their worldly goods). Yeah I like tio think of it that way. Also just a point about the OP's anger at this 'injustice'. Maybe it is the Eilistraee feels that she need to give her female worships help because they are weaker then men...I really don't see anything in the doctrine about males being less then females. Also Eilistraee's PrC, the Sword Dancer, had a restriction of females only. Though that is only one thing that relates to the old restriction. |
| Selvarin09-22-07, 03:23 AM | OK, allow me to articulate a little better... There are probably a few cultures in the Realms where female babies are more of a liability, but so far nothing written about it (or perhaps one should be relieved because if it were so eggregious [sp?] we would've heard of it by now in some storyline). There are certain 'professions' for which infanticide would normally be more common if a misccarriage couldn't be achieved beforehand, but in the Realms thankfully one has access to magic and herbs. Certainly drow culture is cruel overall, and a danger for most. But it's worse in such a culture to be considered less useful and drow males are on the lower end--at least where Lolth reigns. Yes, Eilistraee is benevolent in comparison. I'd rather be a guy at her sorority than Lolth's. (Deliberate wordplay here.) Unlike Lolth she wants to bring drow out of the darkness, etc. etc...and thematically it's fine that women predominate within the priesthood. Her portfolio and demeanor largely mirror Artemis/Diana with the 'Racial Liberator/Redeemer' tag strapped on. So, thematically I have NOTHING so far to argue over concerning her. A female deity where women predominate, yet whose overall goal is to bring her people--as a whole--up. But...despite some plausible suggestions as to why, I don't get and will never get how forcing male priests to become female from time to time will make them 'better'. The implication to me is that somehow they "can't get it" unless they've walked around as one. It detracts from the major themes inherent in this deity. If someone wants to add an interesting requirement or rite of initiation for a given deity, then do it in a way that makes better sense. Because becoming a woman in order to better 'feel' the cycles of the moon in sync with a female's body rhythm 'for the glory of Eilistraee' isn't a strong enough rationale for me, either. You can add it in and follow along, but it doesn't fly for me. There are better ways to do this, and it's clunkers like these that are my pet peeves when it comes to both game design and writing (such as horrific character names and please don't get me started on that...) And FYI, Zandilar, I am not transphobic. Again, hear me: It's about the WHY and the CONTEXT. There are other ways to show sympathy for or identify with a given gender or race. It's in my nature to question this sort of thing. Except that when someone is polymorphed, they become what they're polymorphed into. Take Polymorph Any Object - the duration of a gender change (same species to same species) is permanent. That means that unless someone casts Dispel Magic, or the original caster dismisses the spell, the change is permanent. You could spend your entire life in the new form, if you didn't get it dispelled. Now, why is this relevant? Because it isn't just a case of a male drow putting on a pretty frock... When we're talking magic, that male drow, for all intents and purposes, becomes completely female... And as such gains a more intimate understanding of what it is to be female. OK so the true intent is for the men to understand what it's like? If so then it's a poor rationale for Eilistraee's clergy to enforce. Drow society is too often riven by status determined by gender. This doesn't help, in my opinion, it amounts to a double standard and for a drow male few other things will get on one's nerves more. It would make other religions more attractive. Yes, she's a moody goddess but she doesn't need to share that with everyone. :P Correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt you'd have this problem is we were talking about, oh.. Vhaeraun requiring any female drow wanting to serve as a cleric to become a male for short periods of time. As I mentioned above, in our society, a man who is seen as feminine is derided, but a woman being seen as masculine is largely a non-issue. (ie: women are quite free to wear men's clothes with barely a comment (some sorts of clothes might get the word lesbian (or worse - starts with d ends in yke, and is censored on this board) leveled at them), while men cannot ever wear a dress or a skirt (unless it's a kilt).) *sigh* Wrong again. I may not feel as put-upon by the idea (since I'm a guy) but I'd still consider it idiotic for a female cleric of a male deity to have to dress up or change genders even temporarily--and you can bet such a requirement wouldn't be enforced in my game. What rationale could there be for such a requirement? I'd be hard-pressed to find one, and if there were there would have to be a nice, logical purpose for doing so. Of course it would never be part of any official game supplement, for obvious reasons. Really, I don't have a problem with some religions favoring one gender or another, or whether one predominates. Mystra and Selune both lean towards females, for example, while others are decidedly male. It's to be expected, and in many cases it fits the theme of the deity in question. At the same time if I create a character that chooses one like that I don't necessarily see them as a 2nd-class citizen of the faith, even in a benign sense. But when something like this comes up I have to ask why. And if the answer isn't good enough then it gets tossed. Doesn't matter who wrote it. It's about the 'why', the context, and how well it's stated. But if Eilistraee really wants to do something like that she should have both genders switch temporarily, perhaps during a special festival. Still, the concept is a better fit for other deities of a certain nature (Sharess, perhaps Sune, etc.). Just my two coppers' worth. --C. |
| Zanan09-22-07, 04:04 AM | NB: For those readers wondering what this gender-change is all about: Ed said a wee while back over at Candlekeep that Eilistraee does indeed accept males as clerics, but they have to do some special gender-shapechange-switch for some time to take part in the rituals of the clergy (these mortal females won't allow it otherwise). Yet, other than at Candlekeep, you do not find and note on that, so as has been said, there are the Official FR (lorebooks) and Ed's FR (when he expands on certain matters - but the material has not been used (so far) in the OFR). That's said, after certain events in Sacrifice of the Widow, Eilistraee has male ex-Vhaeraunian clerics taking part in Eilistraee's rituals, with great resentment on the female's behalf. Vhaeraunians as well as Eilistraeens have left the faith after these events in LP I as well. |
| strife_00109-22-07, 04:21 AM | As an afterthought, considering that the pantheons continue to merge and realign... What a rip if someone decided to have Mielikki take over Eilistraee's portfolio? *hears the cries of revolt in the air* :D Woo, my sentiments exactly when the Faiths & Pantheons book mentioned Mask taking notice of Vhaeraun. There should be a drow pantheon and not merely Lolth. That would be boring beyond belief. I wonder, would Mask's attention move to Eilistraee? Hmm, I can imagine Mask, Helm, & Hoar forming an alliance on violation of Mask's copyright. |
| Zandilar09-22-07, 07:58 AM | Heya, There are probably a few cultures in the Realms where female babies are more of a liability, but so far nothing written about it (or perhaps one should be relieved because if it were so eggregious [sp?] we would've heard of it by now in some storyline). There are certain 'professions' for which infanticide would normally be more common if a misccarriage couldn't be achieved beforehand, but in the Realms thankfully one has access to magic and herbs. Certainly drow culture is cruel overall, and a danger for most. But it's worse in such a culture to be considered less useful and drow males are on the lower end--at least where Lolth reigns. Yes, Eilistraee is benevolent in comparison. I'd rather be a guy at her sorority than Lolth's. (Deliberate wordplay here.) Unlike Lolth she wants to bring drow out of the darkness, etc. etc...and thematically it's fine that women predominate within the priesthood. Her portfolio and demeanor largely mirror Artemis/Diana with the 'Racial Liberator/Redeemer' tag strapped on. The vast majority of Realms countries have males in dominance. No one is upset by this, are they? However, I did say that Lolth and traditional Lolthite Drow Society was troubling from a feminist perspective. One of the most common misunderstandings about Feminism is that it's all about females and female equality... It's not. It's about equality period. A feminist should be just as concerned about reverse discrimination (against males) as they are about discrimination against women (don't forget that men can be feminists). But...despite some plausible suggestions as to why, I don't get and will never get how forcing male priests to become female from time to time will make them 'better'. The implication to me is that somehow they "can't get it" unless they've walked around as one. It detracts from the major themes inherent in this deity. The major theme inherent in the deity (aside from hunting, dancing, and moonlight)? Salvation for Drowkind. I can think of a religion on Earth that has "Salvation of Mankind" as a central tenant... in fact, that religion has more than a billion adherents worldwide... and yet it only accepts male priests. Many of them would tell you that the restriction on gender does not impact on that theme at all (and yes, I am aware of movements within that church to change things). Drow are incredibly long lived, at least in comparison to humans, any change that might occur within the various churches would take hundreds, if not thousands of years. (Though the events in LP are changing things far quicker, and I wouldn't be upset too about this, since very soon Eilistraee will accept males in her church without them having to take on female form... Though I'm sure there'll be prejudice against male priests for a long time to come.) And FYI, Zandilar, I am not transphobic. Again, hear me: It's about the WHY and the CONTEXT. There are other ways to show sympathy for or identify with a given gender or race. It's in my nature to question this sort of thing. I meant no offense. :( I understand what you're saying, and as I mentioned I'm a bit frustrated by not being able to get across my meaning... The context is important, and in the context of the Drow people, having females exclusively in the role of priestess is logical and makes sense. Eilistraee herself is obviously trying to change that though, and has come up with a compromise that will start to ease the transition into a more gender balanced (I don't see it becoming complete gender equality for a long time yet) clergy. How about that for a reason? :) OK so the true intent is for the men to understand what it's like? If so then it's a poor rationale for Eilistraee's clergy to enforce. Drow society is too often riven by status determined by gender. This doesn't help, in my opinion, it amounts to a double standard and for a drow male few other things will get on one's nerves more. It would make other religions more attractive. Yes, she's a moody goddess but she doesn't need to share that with everyone. :P Our world is full of double standards when it comes to gender, despite how enlightened we might think ourselves. Why should it be any different amongst the Drow? Also, the aforementioned religion that only has male priests? If that restriction (supposedly) makes other religions attractive to women, why is it still the largest religion in the world? *sigh* Wrong again. I may not feel as put-upon by the idea (since I'm a guy) but I'd still consider it idiotic for a female cleric of a male deity to have to dress up or change genders even temporarily--and you can bet such a requirement wouldn't be enforced in my game. What rationale could there be for such a requirement? I'd be hard-pressed to find one, and if there were there would have to be a nice, logical purpose for doing so. Why do you keep equating Polymorph spells to the Disguise skill? As I think GothicDan has said in the past... Religions are often defined by arbitrary things. (Or words to that effect, I may not have got it 100%, sorry GothicDan. ;)) Really, I don't have a problem with some religions favoring one gender or another, or whether one predominates. Mystra and Selune both lean towards females, for example, while others are decidedly male. It's to be expected, and in many cases it fits the theme of the deity in question. At the same time if I create a character that chooses one like that I don't necessarily see them as a 2nd-class citizen of the faith, even in a benign sense. But when something like this comes up I have to ask why. And if the answer isn't good enough then it gets tossed. Doesn't matter who wrote it. It's about the 'why', the context, and how well it's stated. I don't think Mystra has a gender bias in her clergy - "All wielders of magic and seekers after arcane lore of any race are welcome in the service of Mystra." (from both Faiths and Avatars and Faiths and Pantheons)(As a side note, any spell caster can actually be part of her clergy - the High Priest in her church in Waterdeep, for example, is a Wizard/Necromancer.) Selune's entry doesn't mention a bias towards women, but wandering priests will spread the message of feminine empowerment. There are other deities that specifically mention a gender bias (Sune and Loviatar are examples... Strangely enough I've only been able to find mention of bias towards females. *sigh*) NB: For those readers wondering what this gender-change is all about: Ed said a wee while back over at Candlekeep that Eilistraee does indeed accept males as clerics, but they have to do some special gender-shapechange-switch for some time to take part in the rituals of the clergy (these mortal females won't allow it otherwise). Yet, other than at Candlekeep, you do not find and note on that, so as has been said, there are the Official FR (lorebooks) and Ed's FR (when he expands on certain matters - but the material has not been used (so far) in the OFR). That's not exactly what he said. He basically said that they will have to take on female form from time to time, not every time they do a ritual or have a dance. |
| Zanan09-22-07, 09:32 AM | That's not exactly what he said. He basically said that they will have to take on female form from time to time, not every time they do a ritual or have a dance. Aye ... and it is not exactly what I said either ;) |
| GothicDan09-22-07, 10:47 AM | Why do you think that term is fine for casual use? It's been such fun to be compared to the people who embody evil in the 20th century when I've mentioned that superheroines get treated as eye candy more than superheroes do (for example, recently Wonder Woman's ass filled a cover, but there was a terrible outcry when a superhero's anatomy wasn't Ken Doll enough for male fans but actually, gasp, somewhat realistic). Why do you want to use a word that tends to be part of hate-filled speeches against women who say anything to criticise a hobby with a mostly male fanbase, such as comics or D&D? I wouldn't use derogatory terms to refer to gay or non-white people or equate gay or black rights activists with Nazis. I know this is somewhat off-topic, but I absolutely loathe that word and the way it's used. I've seen many men use the slightest comments about sexism to start terrible tirades about the way men are oppressed by feminism (defined by them as anything that would require them to acknowledge the fact that women face certain obstacles in society and, in the case of the particular fandom where I've seen this word in frequent use, love comics but would still like a break from constant superheroine T&A displays). Please, I would ask you to try to refrain from using that word in the future. I don't believe it improves your arguments or jokes, and it connects you to the idiots who believe that deviation from traditional male/female norms is not just unlikely but perverted. Rather ironic, as in this thread you're saying that temporary sex changes would make sense for followers of certain D&D religions. Frankly, I think your entire response is rather iconoclast and idiotic. It's not my fault you're overly sensitive about my word use. Just peanut gallery comments from the f-aggot atheist. (And frankly, I also don't give a hoot whether or not they develop methods of turning gay rams straight.) PS: I refer to myself as a Grammar Nazi, actually. And my great-grandfather WAS a Nazi. And I'm not ashamed to admit it. |
| Selvarin09-22-07, 03:04 PM | I wonder, would Mask's attention move to Eilistraee? Hmm, I can imagine Mask, Helm, & Hoar forming an alliance on violation of Mask's copyright. That was more than a few posts ago and I've changed some of my opinions. I'm doubtful the 'thiefly' element of Vhaeraun's portfolio interests Eilistraee much, so while she's acquired a large sum of his people the rest have already dispersed--more than a few to Mask's. In any event, in Mask's view 9/10's is as good as yours so he wouldn't give a whit about who claims that element of Vhaeraun's portfolio, merely if you can keep it from him. Besides, Helm can't stand Mask and Helm appears to be on his way out. One thing I thought about, however, was this...both Vhaeraun and Selvetarm were outlets for males wishing to serve a divine entity. In Selvetarm's case he was a convenient means for males to serve Lolth (through him) without getting dirty, and Vhaeraun was the alternative opposition. Selvetarm's church has been absorbed into Lolth's, just as Vhaeraun's has been absorbed into Eilistraee. I wonder if this means Lolth is going 'coed' again, or planning another separate order within the church for male clerics. And when I wake up a little more, I'll respond to what else I see out there... :whatsthis |
| Selvarin09-22-07, 04:24 PM | OK, let's start again and see if we can both keep it under 3 pages a piece. ;) Yes, the Realms is by-and-large male dominated. However, you should note that the designers have made it gender-friendly so even though you're a "woman in a man's world", as a female gamer you aren't nearly as oppressed. I don't see many avenues cut off. If it were a real world likely there would be restrictions, either because of the deity in question or because the leaders of the church built to support that deity have written them into being. The major theme inherent in the deity (aside from hunting, dancing, and moonlight)? Salvation for Drowkind. I can think of a religion on Earth that has "Salvation of Mankind" as a central tenant... in fact, that religion has more than a billion adherents worldwide... and yet it only accepts male priests. Many of them would tell you that the restriction on gender does not impact on that theme at all (and yes, I am aware of movements within that church to change things). I definitely need to touch on this one. If the church in question is what I think it is (and I'm not hung-over so it must be), that is an instance where church doctrine was heavily influence by a greek philosopher whose biases regarding females were pronounced. (At least that's how I learned it in a college theology class but I could be wrong, and that doesn't give those following along a 'pass'.) The churches of today aren't quite the same as they were at the beginning of the movement, and while it is 'tradition' in many churches that the pastors/fathers/reverends/priest be male this wasn't always necessarily the case. I could be wrong, of course, just like one of the disciples turning out to be female, but hey... :P It does bring up the subject of church doctrine vs. deity. You could have it where a deity doesn't mind either way and leaves it up to the church heirarchy, and in this instance I could see where a bunch of disgruntled priestesses may have to tolerate 'grandfathering in' the inclusion of the Vhaeraunites but decide to require some special rite to symbolicly make future males their 'sisters'. In that sense it could be a useful tactic as it would relieve some of the anger they've felt but at the same time make it a one-shot deal (and thus not build up resentment within the males). I'm looking at it from the perspective of a CG deity, which I normally think of as directing one's church more loosely compared to a lawful entity such as Bane's. One thing going against this idea would be that Eilistraee works closely with her church as a matter of survival. OK, and now I have to toss everything in at once, numbered: 1) I catch your meaning, but I'm not arguing the point about temporary vs. permanent gender change. I know the difference. Such a requirement--temp or perm--would still strike me odd, even though I've known real world pagan churches which may have 'entry requirements' which are equally distateful to me. (If in doubt, read up on what Dave Mustane [sp?] of Megadeth was asked to do in order to join a certain 'church'. It didn't strike his fancy one bit.) 2) The context is definitely important. On one hand in drow society the females lead so most males won't blanch at the thought of a female in a leadeship position because it's a fact of life. Duly noted. However, since most drow males have suffered in Lolth-driven matriarchies, many will have a special sensitivity towards superior and subordinant...and if one's been serving Vhaeraun they've been able to lead in their own right, at least within their own group. A benign dictatorship is still a dictatorship, so while Eilistraee's group is a definite step up it'll still grate on a male if, after having joined Team E, they end up in a more subordinant position and have to do this 'other little thing'. Vhaeraun was hypocritical in his own right, part of his dogma was that there be true equality between the sexes despite not having female clerics ('masked traitors' notwithstanding), but the words remain there as a challenge for his 'better' to deliver upon. 3) You're correct, double standards exist. Always will. And if one works against us we should question that. And for a drow male in general it's a toss-up whether to serve a church that accepts his drow heritage but has a gender hang-up vs. another church which may not accept his heritage but for which has no big issue about gender. 4) Yep, churches, etc. can have arbitrary or (my words put in here) politically-based rulings. *points to the beginning of his post* There are many examples of things which aren't in a sacred text but which are brought into being due to history and circumstances (e.g., priests being celibate, religious authorities always being right, etc.). But if anything resembling that should get in the way of my gameplay I'll trim that snaky branch off. 5) Mystra doesn't have a gender bias in the same sense as Eilistraee or Lolth do, I don't believe I've said otherwise. But some portfolios can be seen as more attractive towards females, such as the moon (Selune) or magic (Mystra). My drow mystic theurge is perfectly happy as a Mystran convert, it's more practical for him. And while he has cultural baggage they don't have gender baggage, which is rather nice. I have an idea. Someone repost the entire snippet from "Ed Says". I don't know which PDF it was and they're pretty long in general, but it doesn't hurt...except my eyes. Iwent through two PDF's last night and it felt like my eyes were going to bleed. :weep: (Just kidding but really, the PDFs from candlekeep are info-overload sometimes.) |
| ElberethSilverleaf09-22-07, 09:34 PM | I've never thought of Eilistraee as an egalitarian goddess. Good aligned yes but strongly matriarcical along the lines of RL Wiccan Dianic worship where men can worship and assist but all major office holders and clerics are female. Same with the Roman Catholic church. Accept it as thats just the way it is. There are plenty of dieties in Faerun needing new adherents and I don't see why being a drow male of the correct alignment bent and world ethos would hinder acceptance into a particular faith. |
| Selvarin09-23-07, 10:12 PM | Another thought on the battle between Lolth and Eilistraee (after having responded to something on the 4e boards): I don't think either will die. From what I read in the Lisa The Lady Pentient Series both will survive though Eilistraee will be more evil or at the very least willing to do anything and everything to save the elven and drow races. One possibility, sfdragon and Memorax: Eilistraee wins, is about to deliver the proverbial coup d' etat (sp?) and Lolth dangles the subject of what happens to Halisstra...and with that, Eilistraee's own morality is on the knife's edge. Lolth can destroy her soul utterly, no way to stop that, and Eilistraee, while becoming a little harsher through the course of this game, must decide if the life of one who (ultimately) helps her is more than that of destroying the evil that is Lolth... And(!) in so doing...if, by destroying Lolth and letting Halisstra die, doesn't she then inherit Lolth's throne and title? (As in, become what her mother is?) Hmm, makes you wonder just a bit??? :schemes: There is a responsibility to the race, to her followers, and herself. If she fails herself then she will lose the other two. And so...Eilistraee makes a deal. In exchange for Halisstra, Lolth make keep her position. It may be enough for Lolth to know she has lost to her daughter, even if she gave up the ultimate prize. So...Eilistraee wins and, in effect, has gained the drow of the surface world. Halisstra redeems herself, Qilue is lost (either due to Lolth or Ghaunadaur or the Spellplague), and Lolth survives to scheme more schemes for many centuries to come. Just a what-if, piled onto the rest. |
| Zanan09-24-07, 04:53 AM | On topic ... the way the Eilistraeens are described in WotSQ and LP I is very much how I pictured them. Not exactly as "good" as people would like to have them. And strictly matriarchical as well. And IMHO even on a goddess' command, you do not breed that out in a few months or years. It is nigh innate in the drow and I would miss it if it is simply changed for setting or even worse edition-reasons. Furthermore, it is quite unlikely to be accepted among the non-clergy either. Off-topic ... GD, after a few hours or a day later, you may want to change your last post a wee bit, won't you? |
| Miryana09-24-07, 09:20 AM | Frankly, I think your entire response is rather iconoclast and idiotic. It's not my fault you're overly sensitive about my word use. Just peanut gallery comments from the f-aggot atheist. (And frankly, I also don't give a hoot whether or not they develop methods of turning gay rams straight.) PS: I refer to myself as a Grammar Nazi, actually. And my great-grandfather WAS a Nazi. And I'm not ashamed to admit it. For the sake of politeness, I don't use the F-word myself. While there are some gay people who have no problem with it, for others it can bring up painful memories. Since I'd rather avoid trivialising people's experiences of discrimination and belittlement, I don't see any need to use a derogatory term when less politically/morally charged words exist. This may be the Internet, but I don't think that has to mean that rudeness becomes something to be proud of. |
| Selvarin09-24-07, 02:43 PM | Nothing wrong in keeping them fierce, Zanan. In some respects they're acting more 'fey' as time goes. So the ones that survive in the process of escaping aren't less prone to anger or act insulted by a lesser being, per se, but instead of whipping out the weapon of choice and paying someone back they're more likely to let their eyes glow redder than usual and brood on it, unless someone goes the rest of the way in provoking a response. |