Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Optimystik 03-12-07, 08:57 PM	I remember reading somewhere that the elemental powers (Akadi, Istishia, Kossuth and Grumbar) were valid deities for druids, but I'm having trouble finding this in any canon online source. Can anyone give me a link to somewhere at least semi-official that validates these four? I want to justify a druid that views fire as a metaphor for life's purifying cycle, or somesuch.
bitter thorn 03-13-07, 12:05 AM	Faiths and Pantheons has a list of "nature dieties", but it's fairly widely accepted that this list is not complete (in spite of the text to that effect in F&P). I would let reason be your guide in this if your the DM. If you have a DM who demands a specific rule citation, you may have a tougher time if none of your elemental dieties made the list.
Empirate 03-13-07, 09:56 AM	I'm fairly positive I saw a Druid of Grumbar somewhere in Underdark. I'm afraid I'm in no mood to look it up, though, as that could take a while...
GothicDan 03-13-07, 03:10 PM	As previously stated, canon on the druidic deities topic is fuzzy. Let common sense and lore be your guide! Druids, at their hearts, are beings who encompass all aspects of nature to one point or another. This was backed up by lore in 2E more, but the mechanics of the class still reflect it, in the fact that their spell list and special abilities run the gamut of almost all facets of the natural world (flamestrike, creeping cold, shapeshifting, plant and animal based spells, call lightning, etc.) The Elemental Deities' clergies are unique in that they uphold a dogma that's even more strict and unbending than those of your other deities. Kossuth will ALWAYS hate Istishia; it's in his blood. Thus, he'll pass on that fact to his followers, and have them ALWAYS disrespect anything watery, and wouldn't condone their use of water-based spells (or probably even shapeshifting into aquatic forms). It all depends on where you draw the line at the definition of a druid. I prefer the 2E lore definition, but the 3E mechanics also present a class that's broad enough to suggest it wouldn't be supported by deities that are so obsessively, irrationally focused on one part of nature, and abhorring and seeking to destroy other parts, specifically.
Optimystik 03-13-07, 08:21 PM	Thanks for the feedback! No, I'm not the DM in question, I wanted to make a case to my DM for allowing those 4 deities to be valid choices for a druid. I think I have a small amount of ammunition now, though I would still appreciate a canon, identifiable source stating a druid who followed any one of those four (or even an entry in a sourcebook mentioning druids among their followers). That Grumbar druid would have been just the kind of thing I was looking for, however I can understand it being a pain to look up something only half-remembered and half-seen. I'll go argue it anyway, thank you!
AbyssKnight 03-15-07, 12:37 PM	Underdark pg. 137 and 138. The leader of the town Earth's End (called the Spelosa) is a high level druid of Grumbar.
Rude 03-16-07, 09:44 PM	eh, I doubt the Elemental Dieties would prevent Druids from using opposing element spells. Didn't Faith's and Pantheons say that they are uncaring and pretty uncommunicative? I just don't see them taking much of an interest as one of the other human gods might.
GothicDan 03-17-07, 11:37 AM	Read their actual entries. The Elemental Gods have undying hatred for anything regarding the opposing element. The very idea that the Elemental Gods would grant the divine abilities of a class that has nothing to do with their dogmas or portfolios (Druid) doesn't fly well with me, personally. I think if you stretch things THAT far with class restrictions and deities, you might as well remove all class restrictions and make Wizards divine casters of Moradin, and Paladins of Talos. ;)
Purple Dragon Knight 03-17-07, 03:18 PM	I agree with Rude. The Elemental gods do not care what spells their followers are using. They're just plain happy to have any influence at all in the already crowded religious scene of Faerun. Sure, the man-made clergies, with their dogma and zeal, will tell you otherwise, and feed you the propaganda; sure actual gods perhaps have a beef or two against the opposite elemental gods; but to actually care about the spells they hand out is a stretch as far as I know. As for the original question: read each god's entry, and try to spot references to druids/rangers. Personally, I allow all elemental gods to have druids as divine spellcasters/followers.
GothicDan 03-17-07, 11:51 PM	he Elemental gods do not care what spells their followers are using. They're just plain happy to have any influence at all in the already crowded religious scene of Faerun. Sure, the man-made clergies, with their dogma and zeal, will tell you otherwise, and feed you the propaganda; sure actual gods perhaps have a beef or two against the opposite elemental gods; but to actually care about the spells they hand out is a stretch as far as I know. Well, I was referring specifically to the way that the Gods have been detailed. I wasn't saying how I 'think' them to be. :) You can make them think or do whatever you want, but I assumed the OP wanted some knowledge/advise based on the Realms as written. Take a look at the elemental gods as portrayed in the Elric series. They're basically the same.
AbyssKnight 03-18-07, 07:58 PM	Personally, I wouldn't even need it to be a question of if the god would grant spells of the opposite element. I just wouldn't even try to cast them, as a character. I mean, if you are a cleric/druid of a faith, that means you believe in the tenets of that faith. So, as a cleric or druid of Grumbar (for example) why would you want to cast Air spells given that you think Air is weak and unreliable.
GothicDan 03-20-07, 07:31 PM	That's the right mindset. However, a Druid of Grumbar would, by definition, already have been granted the ability to potentially cast such spells in the first place - which would indicate that Grumbar would have had to have 'allowed' it, inferentially. And there's the fact that only a handful of the Druid class features and spells apply to the dogmas' and thematic personalities of the Elemental Gods. In particular, I do not consider the shapeshifting (which has largely become the primary focus of Druids in the current edition) class ability to be appropriate or logical for an Elemental Divine spellcaster (excepting the ability to assume Elemental forms). Really, I truly was fond of 2E's Specialty Priests, as flawed as they were; they had the ideas right.
bitter thorn 03-20-07, 10:25 PM	That's the right mindset. However, a Druid of Grumbar would, by definition, already have been granted the ability to potentially cast such spells in the first place - which would indicate that Grumbar would have had to have 'allowed' it, inferentially. And there's the fact that only a handful of the Druid class features and spells apply to the dogmas' and thematic personalities of the Elemental Gods. In particular, I do not consider the shapeshifting (which has largely become the primary focus of Druids in the current edition) class ability to be appropriate or logical for an Elemental Divine spellcaster (excepting the ability to assume Elemental forms). Really, I truly was fond of 2E's Specialty Priests, as flawed as they were; they had the ideas right. There are a lot of ways to customize classes for flavor and mechanics. Not all druids have to be shapechangers, woodasman etc. Just like not all Rangers are required to be thematically identical. It's not that hard (generally speaking) for a player and DM to agree on changes to energy types, special effects, and thematics for divinely granted spells, IMO.
AbyssKnight 03-20-07, 11:14 PM	That's the right mindset. However, a Druid of Grumbar would, by definition, already have been granted the ability to potentially cast such spells in the first place - which would indicate that Grumbar would have had to have 'allowed' it, inferentially. Yes, but that is a problem for every divine casting class that exists. They all have a mixture of elemental spells. So I don't see this as a barrier to druids of the Elemental Lords, especially since they do appear in published material. And there's the fact that only a handful of the Druid class features and spells apply to the dogmas' and thematic personalities of the Elemental Gods. In particular, I do not consider the shapeshifting (which has largely become the primary focus of Druids in the current edition) class ability to be appropriate or logical for an Elemental Divine spellcaster (excepting the ability to assume Elemental forms). You could always use varient class features, I am sure there are some for a more elemental druid. Also, this is again a problem shared with all divine casting classes (what does worship of Akadi have to do with Turning Undead). Really, I truly was fond of 2E's Specialty Priests, as flawed as they were; they had the ideas right. I agree that classes more specifically suited to the individual god's area of focus are more flavorful than one generic class for them all.
Purple Dragon Knight 03-21-07, 03:16 AM	I agree that classes more specifically suited to the individual god's area of focus are more flavorful than one generic class for them all.Ditto. The specialty priests of the F&A trilogy will always be hard to beat. However, a wily (read: good) DM has more than enough tools in the 3.5 framework to come up with a 'kit' or 'recommended path' for his priest NPCs. For example, a druid of Kossuth would take fire-based feats, perhaps the Elemental Archon PrC (or similar 'fire-themed' class). If, as a DM, you'd sleep better at night ruling that ALL priests of Kossuth follow that path, make it a houserule. I personally wouldn't, as I feel that the beauty of the current system allows for many different individuals working towards the same faith/goal, which is more realistic and organic IMHO. Why should everyone be able to fit in a nice little cookie-cutter and not be allowed a degree of personal difference? With 3E's flexibility in choosing domains, feats, taking skills cross-class if need be, there's absolutely no reason your priest can't look or feel a certain way. In fact, you'd insult my intelligence by publishing another supplement trilogy telling what a priest of this or that god does at level n, n+1, n+i, etc.
GothicDan 03-21-07, 08:59 AM	Do remember that, by definition, by following a specified religious dogma and god, you are automatically subscribing yourself to all of that religion's beliefs (or most of them) and are putting yourself at the whim of the deity (enacted through your DM). Divine spellcasters are perhaps the biggest exception to the current edition's "methodology," in my opinion. Too many players forget that there's an actual religion and a sentient force behind those Resurrect/Cure spells.
Purple Dragon Knight 03-22-07, 12:36 AM	Doesn't matter. Look at real-world religions: do all catholic priests know about exorcism? do all rabbis play piano? should every buddhist monk out there be able to win the Ultimate Fighter Championship? no way! Religion is about community. There's dogma and philosophy, but that's only a small part of what makes the individual's makeup. Skills/Feats/Class in D&D is the same. I don't see why you couldn't have a single-classed Fighter for a Tempus High Priest or a Marshal/Cleric/Knight, for example. I don't need a specific Tempus Priest class! Piety, dogma, philosophy, etc. has nothing to do with what the actual guy's job or parlor tricks can be (as sad as this revelation can be for some... how many times have you stumped a politics science or philosophy major with simple questions? do all politicians get a politics degree? don't think so!)
GothicDan 03-22-07, 06:28 AM	Doesn't matter. Look at real-world religions: A poor analogy at best. The religions knowledge of a real world holy man or woman does not directly affect his or her abilities. (Unless you believe in magic, which I don't.) Religion is about community. There's dogma and philosophy, but that's only a small part of what makes the individual's makeup. And you're entirely missing my point, here. The Elemental Gods are NOT like the other deities of the various pantheons. They are VERY VERY rarely worshipped (which means few lasting cultural idiosyncrasies) and represent for the most part ONE portfolio (fire, air, earth, water), whereas the other deities represent many, have had numerous worshippers across many cultures that have shifted and changed and interacted, and are actually able to connect more with the people of Faerun. The Elemental Gods are described as being something completely alien and nigh indecipherable to mortals; they are in some ways more like sentient forces than true deities. It would be equivalent to me being granted the ability to channel "fire" and somehow using that to, say, turn myself into a squirrel. I just can't see the logic in that, in any paradigm. Piety, dogma, philosophy, etc. has nothing to do with what the actual guy's job or parlor tricks can be (as sad as this revelation can be for some... how many times have you stumped a politics science or philosophy major with simple questions? do all politicians get a politics degree? don't think so!) ......... You do realize that's the entire reason behind the mechanics of the classes like Paladin, Cleric, and Druid, right? Dogma, philosophy, and piety DIRECTLY result in the sort of magic that a holy person can utilize. And, on a larger scale, it's those philosophies that DIRECTLY allow people on the Planes to shape reality (the Factions and the like). You CANNOT separate dogma and piety from a divine spellcasting class and not change the results. It's a Cleric's (and a Druid's, and a Paladin's) piety in the deity's dogma and philosophy that convinces a deity that he's worthy of being granted the ability to use spells.... Which is why a Cleric (or the like) HAS to obey the deity's religious tenants (to a point; the recent heresies are interesting, but at their cores, any deity who didn't want to support one or ignore it could simply stop granting such powers). This would happen all the more often with the Elemental Gods, who have remain unchanged for as long as anyone anywhere in the multiverse can remember, seeming utterly immutable in mindset and essence - which makes sense, given that they're tied intrinsically to the Inner Planes. I really am utterly flabbergasted by your assertions.
Purple Dragon Knight 03-23-07, 08:34 PM	Flabbergasted? wow... okay... :D Bottom line is that I don't buy your argument that elemental gods' followers are just dumb fireball wands for their gods; moreover, I will agree to disagree with you on the concept that the only empowered clergymen/clergywomen of Faerun are those with divine spellcasting capacity. Whether it's canon or not, I will cling to my view that non-spellcasters matter as much as the spellcasters in the grand scheme of god-worship. Maybe Ao could chime in and help me out here? didn't he say something along the lines that "a god's power will be proportional to the number of worshippers he/she has?" :D
GothicDan 03-24-07, 06:30 AM	It's the overall amount of faith, not the number of the faithful. Thus a clergy person delivers more faith to a god than a casual worshipper. And what exactly are you answering to? I didn't say anything that you seem to think I said, judging from your reply... I said that a deity is a conscious being with a will of its own, and a cleric's abilities and disabilities (any that they are not innately born with) are directly tied to his or her faith in a deity, and that deity's acceptance and recompense for that faith. Summing things up, of course.
Spelldancer 03-29-07, 02:51 AM	Sorry Mister Dan, but I have to disagree with you on some part. Yes the Elemental Gods are rather alien, compared to the other gods. They are still Greater Powers. This has to be tied in to their worshipers. I suppose it might be argued that elementals may worship them, genasis, and elemental-kin. Still some of that power base has to come from somewhere. Faiths and Avatars listed several temples to Istishia in port cities like Waterdeep and Calimport. In fact if I am recalling, in F&A they attributed the faith of Istishia to quelling the Thayan naval force. It has been awhile since I've read it, so my memory may be faulty. While most people may not understand why people would worship such strange gods, their followers still play a role in life across Faerun. All of them, not just Kossuth.
GothicDan 03-30-07, 02:16 AM	They are still Greater Powers. This has to be tied in to their worshipers According to F&A, at least, it makes a note that the Elemental Gods seem to be somewhat outside of this rule, at least to a point; the faith they garner in Faerun is not at all proportionate to their power levels. They're powered by something "else" that the other "normal" gods of the pantheons do not get.
Purple Dragon Knight 03-30-07, 07:32 PM	According to F&A, at least, it makes a note that the Elemental Gods seem to be somewhat outside of this rule, at least to a point; the faith they garner in Faerun is not at all proportionate to their power levels. They're powered by something "else" that the other "normal" gods of the pantheons do not get.This "else" could be worship from elementals, the mindless spirits from the plane of earth that inhabit each construct in Faerun, etc. Basically, it's tied to worship somehow, unless Ao has started handing out favors to some. Maybe they're alien in the sense of a human's view, but make perfect sense to the alien mind of a rock or forest fire, for example... NOTE: other gods in Faerun are "alien" to their worshippers, but that's just it: not every deity needs to be a social butterfly. Sekolah, Gaunadaur, etc. I bet they're real fun during Christmas Eve!
GothicDan 03-30-07, 09:03 PM	They're alien because they are not based on the imaginations, beliefs, or origins of any of the races native to the Prime Material Plane (unlike any other god that dwells in the Outer Planes).
Purple Dragon Knight 03-31-07, 03:38 PM	Some of them sure sound 'alien', but not all. Grumbar and Akadi have deep ties with the dwarven and elven cultures, respectively. Is Grumbar more alien than Dumathoin? not ready to say that... As mortals are to fleas, gods are to mortals... Moreover, I'd have to really make a close study on each god's entry before agreeing that they did not sprout up as a result of mortal worship and/or due to their ascension from mortal to godhood.
The Ubbergeek 03-31-07, 08:57 PM	And Kossuth is a Thayan god too.... They are not wholy alien.... not anymore. Planescape shown it... Gods influence followers, but it work the other way too...
GothicDan 04-01-07, 03:03 AM	Have you guys read their actual entries, and the material from which they were inspired? (The Elric Saga's Elemental gods.) And Planescape specifically draws a line between the Inner and Outer Planes. The OUTER PLANES are those based on belief. The Inners are not touched by the beliefs of mortals.
Andyr 04-01-07, 07:38 AM	I'd concur with Dan: Planescape's A Guide To The Inner Planes paints the elemental deities as being elemental creatures of a higher power than the Good and Evil archomentals, as opposed to being something strikingly different (as a deity arising from mortal worship is). It also suggests that they are beings which simply are--as opposed to arising through mortal worship. The sourcebook mentions that as time passes it appears that the life within the Inner Planes grows more complicated, as if it is being sullied by the increased traffic from non-natives and their beliefs. This would suggest to me that, as possibly the most ancient creatures on their respective Inner Planes, the elemental powers predate mortal worship. Of course as with many Planescape products the source is written largely in-character, so the dark of it might not always be what the book says... ;)