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| ShadezofDis05-29-07, 10:44 AM | So, AFAIUI, Elven High Magic must be approved by Corellon in order for it to work. Now, how does this work? If Elven High Magic accesses the Weave then that would imply that; Corellon can control the Weave to some extent. (either because Mystra says it's ok or because of some other reason) Corellon doesn't actually stop the spell, he tells Mystra to stop it and she says "Ok buddy." Something else? If Elven High Magic bypasses the Weave then it's perfectly understandable, even if it puts for the question of how it bypasses it. Anyhow, that was an idle musing of mine this morning :) |
| GothWulf05-29-07, 12:30 PM | So, AFAIUI, Elven High Magic must be approved by Corellon in order for it to work. Now, how does this work? If Elven High Magic accesses the Weave then that would imply that; Corellon can control the Weave to some extent. (either because Mystra says it's ok or because of some other reason) Corellon doesn't actually stop the spell, he tells Mystra to stop it and she says "Ok buddy." Something else? If Elven High Magic bypasses the Weave then it's perfectly understandable, even if it puts for the question of how it bypasses it. Anyhow, that was an idle musing of mine this morning :) Ok..just kinda throwing out some things...none if this is canon AFAIK...but after all, I AM the God of Wild Theories...;) Since Mystra is the only one that can control the Weave, that leaves out the possibility that Corellon has any control over it, even though he is a God of magic himself. However the second part of that seems logical...after all, favors are done by Gods for others all the time..a prime example being when a cleric ends up on a world/in a multiverse where their God doesn’t exist. For example, a priest of Lathander ends up on Oearth...he still prays to Lathander, he still gets his spells, but since Lathander has no presence there, it is actually Pelor, or servants of his, that are actually granting the spells...the same way that Lathander would return the favor for a priest of Pelor that ended up in Toril. My reasoning for this type of favor is that, since there is no conflict between the two Deities, then its easier to do it this way, as well as avoiding the whole attempt at conversion that may happen if said priest realized that their God had no presence on a particular world, which WOULD bring them into conflict, at least to a certain point. Especially among the greater Gods, they have a tendency to take "the course of least resistance/trouble" if possible to do so. NOW...on to the wilder theories...*grin*... Working off the assumption that Elven High Magic bypasses the weave entirely one possibility how it does so is the simplest..it is UNSPEAKABLY old...dating back to before the "death" of Mystryl, so one could safely assume that it simply drew off of these older forces of magic, BEFORE there was a Weave, when magic was a thing of change and, to a certain point, chaos. With Mystryl being chaotic herself, I see no reason that the Weave, a thing of order, would have come into existence any earlier then the ascension of Mystra in an attempt to bring order back from the massive mess that a certain Mad Mage had caused...therefore my theory is that before that "magic" was kind of like the Astral plane...a "fog" that overlaid and permeated everything instead of a "web" like it is now. Now going on this theory, since Mystra is the "Guardian and Mistress of the Weave" She would not nessicarilly have any real control over the "raw" magic that was not bound within it, however Corellon, being a God of magic..and chaotic, would be the perfect person for Her to "hand over" this control to...unknown to anyone else, of course. Now before you jump up saying "all magic is contained in the Weave", try this analogy. The Weave is exactly that...it is the raw magic "spun into a thread and woven into a cloth" to make it "safe" for spellcasters of all types to use. However, no matter how well a cloth is woven, little pieces always "shed" from it as fabric dust, lint, those little balls that form on your sweater, what have you...regardless, they are there and no longer part of the original fabric any longer. It is this “shed” magic, magic that has returned to it’s original “wild” state that powers Elven High Magic, thus Corellon’s ability to decide whether a certain High Magic spell works or not. He has tacit “permission” from Mystra to be in control of that magic. A second possibility goes along with my theory that the Weave didn’t exist before Mystra. Elven High Magic bypasses the Weave by the simple fact that it simply reaches back in time to when magic was a wild and chaotic thing, before the death of Mystryl. After all, Labelas Enoreth is the only God that possesses Time as one of his portfolios <though I admit I may be wrong here…I don’t have my books with me so I can’t double check> and He could easily allow this, or perhaps was even commanded by Corellon to do so, possibly giving up a miniscule portion of his Time portfolio to Corellon to give Him direct control over such use. Well..enough of my wild theories for the moment….now I sit back and wait for it to be picked apart :bounce: Wulfe |
| GothicDan05-29-07, 02:28 PM | In Corellon's portfolio is "Elves" and "Magic." I think Elven Wizards dedicated to him (including EHM) would automatically be blocked from accessing anything that he doesn't want them to access, just like Talos could block mortal Clerics/Wizards from calling down Storms without actually blocking the Weave from them. |
| ShadezofDis05-29-07, 02:39 PM | First off, thanks for the wild theories Wulf, I see the portfolio is well cared for in your hands. :) In Corellon's portfolio is "Elves" and "Magic." I think Elven Wizards dedicated to him (including EHM) would automatically be blocked from accessing anything that he doesn't want them to access, just like Talos could block mortal Clerics/Wizards from calling down Storms without actually blocking the Weave from them. So your position would be more along the lines of; Corellon has a "preblock" set up before the Weave for EHM, thus Corellon must approve the casting in order for it to reach the Weave. Sorta thing. Makes me wonder if Mystra could share elven high magic, or if there's something in the physiology of elves that allows them use of elven high magic. . . damn, I wish there could be a clearer "How things work" so I could eliminate a lot of my theories. :tantrum: |
| GothicDan05-29-07, 02:41 PM | One of the theories as to EHM was in Cormanthyr, when they were talking about a unique magical gland that connected them in greater depth to the Weave than humanity or the like. It was also given as a reason for why Half-Elves can't usually use High Magic except in extreme (probably divinely blessed) circumstances. :) |
| ShadezofDis05-29-07, 03:08 PM | One of the theories as to EHM was in Cormanthyr, when they were talking about a unique magical gland that connected them in greater depth to the Weave than humanity or the like. It was also given as a reason for why Half-Elves can't usually use High Magic except in extreme (probably divinely blessed) circumstances. :) Hmmm. . . interesting theory. Just really leads to more elven physiology questions though :/ I mean, it can work AFAIK but it just makes me question more. (one question that springs to mind is that if elves are so different then how do half-elves happen and how do half-elves differ from humans and elves and how do elven subraces differ and. . . well, you probably get my point.) |
| Stigger05-29-07, 07:37 PM | Personally, I prefer the interpretation of it being just another name for epic magic viewed and applied through a cultural lense. |
| ShadezofDis05-29-07, 07:40 PM | Personally, I prefer the interpretation of it being just another name for epic magic viewed and applied through a cultural lense. So then in your view it would bypass the Weave? Would use the Weave? And how does that relate to Mystra's stand on Corellon granting permision and how that all works? :) |
| Stigger05-29-07, 07:42 PM | Uses the Weave, and Corellon's portfolio gives him control over elves and their magic, allowing him to decide if it will work or not. |
| Soltares05-30-07, 12:40 AM | Uses the Weave, and Corellon's portfolio gives him control over elves and their magic, allowing him to decide if it will work or not. Corellon doesn't have to stop the magic, he just has to stop the elf. He may not (or may, who knows) be able to affect the Weave, but he can sure affect that elven spellcaster, preventing him from successfully casting that spell. |
| Lord Karsus05-30-07, 12:44 AM | -Anyone have that graphic of how Elves are magical creatures, and their relation to the Weave? Anyone know what I am talking about? |
| Stigger05-30-07, 03:21 AM | Stopping the magic, stopping the elf, same thing effectively for all practical purposes, as there would be no functional difference beyond an abstract mechanic. No clue what you're referring to there LK... |
| ShadezofDis05-30-07, 09:16 AM | Stopping the magic, stopping the elf, same thing effectively for all practical purposes, as there would be no functional difference beyond an abstract mechanic. Yep, it's the abstract mechanic in question that I'm curious about and what different theories people can come up for the unexplained abstract mechanic (which, while abstract for this purpose, would lead to some other thoughts and eventually to a plot device) No clue what you're referring to there LK... . . . I have vague recollections but can't think of it specifically, I would love to take a gander at it though. |
| Lord Karsus05-30-07, 09:57 AM | -Dan probably knows what I am talking about. It was an a graphic that someone made up that illustrated the connection between Elves and the Weave using something akin to overlapping circles, if I recall correctly. It used to surface every now and then, back in the day. |
| Derren S.05-31-07, 04:45 AM | -Anyone have that graphic of how Elves are magical creatures, and their relation to the Weave? Anyone know what I am talking about? As elves are in no way more magical than humans and halflings are this graphic would be very empty. If a standard race would is more connected to the weave than the others it is gnomes. |
| ShadezofDis05-31-07, 08:10 AM | As elves are in no way more magical than humans and halflings are this graphic would be very empty. If a standard race would is more connected to the weave than the others it is gnomes. Time and again it has been stated in lore that elves are closer to the Weave than other races, they have a special relationship with it. Closer to the Weave = more magical. |
| Lord Karsus05-31-07, 11:13 AM | As elves are in no way more magical than humans and halflings are this graphic would be very empty. -You are 100% incorrect. Though not reflected in their stats, the Elves of Faerûn are indeed inherently connected to the Weave of magic. This is the reason why Elves form "communal minds" of sorts, can enter into Reverie, recieve resistances against enchantments, and so on. |
| GothicDan05-31-07, 12:20 PM | As elves are in no way more magical than humans and halflings are this graphic would be very empty. If a standard race would is more connected to the weave than the others it is gnomes. No one in this topic cares about your take on this subject, Derren. You might as well save us all frustration and quit now. |
| Lord Karsus05-31-07, 02:21 PM | -Well, Dan, do you happen to have that graphic, or know where I might be able to get my hands on it? I want to include either it, or something similar in Elves of Faerûn. |
| NightBreeze05-31-07, 08:00 PM | I thought that Mystra simply gave Corellon the control on elven magic, as they are good friends :rolleyes: |
| GothicDan05-31-07, 08:58 PM | -Well, Dan, do you happen to have that graphic, or know where I might be able to get my hands on it? I want to include either it, or something similar in Elves of Faerûn. I vaguely recall the graphic. Was it in Cormanthyr? I can't remember. :( Sorry. I fail. |
| Lord Karsus05-31-07, 11:05 PM | Was it in Cormanthyr? I can't remember. :( Sorry. I fail. -No, it was something that someone drew up themself. I figured that maybe you had it saved. Oh well... |
| GothicDan05-31-07, 11:11 PM | I think I remembered someone referring to it in the past, but I don't remember seeing the actual image. Remember, there's long periods of time I'm nearly invisible on these boards. (School does that.) |
| Lord Karsus05-31-07, 11:46 PM | -Yeah, I hear you... |
| ShadezofDis06-01-07, 11:55 AM | I thought that Mystra simply gave Corellon the control on elven magic, as they are good friends :rolleyes: I'm just working out theories here, that one is perfectly fine but I don't remember reading anything that would make it more likely than any others, like the fact that it's elven magic means Corellon trumps Mystra, or the "Elven High Magic" was before the Weave idea. . . which doesn't really work, but perhaps "Elven High Magic" is from a world with similar raw magic but doesn't have a Weave and it's a form of magic that bypasses the Weave. Just playing with theories. :) |
| Karsus the Mad06-01-07, 03:29 PM | I agree with stigger. It's epic magic, but surrounded by ages worth of cultural identification and uniqueness. It draws on the Weave. I believe Correllon can prevent it if he so desires. I also believe Elven High Magic is a gift of both Mystra and Correllon, and by mutual agreement either can prevent it. |
| Drew1369r06-01-07, 05:51 PM | But IMHO Mystra can still override Corellons block. I hold Stiggers view... its epic magic named different... even a human I can see developing the same spell. |
| GothicDan06-01-07, 06:05 PM | Mystra "can" override Corellon's block, but she'd have no reason to, and so AO wouldn't let her. She's not allowed to openly use her powers over Weave access or the like unless the integrity of the Weave is in some way threatened. Ultimately, neither the basic D&D system nor the Epic spell system, I think, accurately portrays any of the myriad variabilities in Realms' magic, from one culture to the next (Elven or otherwise). |
| MaskedOne06-01-07, 06:30 PM | Mystra is not permitted to allow her human morality to hinder her from advancing her portfolio. Nor is she permitted to threaten the Balance. As overruling Corellon on whether to allow or disallow a particular feat of magic is not guaranteed to manage either, I find the concept that she is overly restricted from doing so by AO questionable at best. On the flip side, anything Mystra will want blocked, Corellon will probably also want blocked. Permitting something Corellon disapproves of (if a circumstance arose in which she wished to) can be arranged by simply providing a different method. Corellon's ability to block High Magic does not extend far enough to influence all the forms of magic use at her disposal so there is little need for her to ever directly countermand him. |
| Drew1369r06-01-07, 09:33 PM | I wasn't saying anything otherwise... I was just pointing out... if Corellon says "no" and Mystra says "yes" who is going to win that fight over the Weave? |
| MaskedOne06-01-07, 09:39 PM | I wasn't saying anything otherwise... I was just pointing out... if Corellon says "no" and Mystra says "yes" who is going to win that fight over the Weave? Provided that the spell doesn't actually need any special knowledge or power held by Corellon, Mystra wins. |
| GothicDan06-01-07, 10:16 PM | I would assume it does include some special knowledge. Though since Corellon's High Magi HAVE cast High Magic through the Weave, she probably would have absorbed that knowledge immediately, even if it wasn't made in Realmspace. |
| MaskedOne06-01-07, 10:44 PM | Agreed on all counts. I'm among the last to consider suggesting that High Magic bypasses the Weave. Nearly all lore about it speaks of special connection to and manipulation of the Weave. I'm considering that properly used however, it might require more than the Weave. Just because of a form is known to draw on the Weave doesn't mean it can't also draw on more. It could be that High Magic is also a manifestation of Arvandor, a blending of mortal and divine effort. Mystra is required because it works through the Weave. Corellon is necessary because as pre-eminent power of the Seldarine, he has the authority to lend or deny Arvandor's aid. That would handle High Magic requiring the consent of both and well if Mystra wants a bypass then there are enough other ways to do it especially since she knows more than enough about how it works. |
| XHereticX06-01-07, 10:45 PM | I have always wondered, how did the elves become so attuned to Toril's weave when they are interlopers and the weave is the essence of toril itself? |
| GothicDan06-01-07, 10:54 PM | They're just that good. The raw magic that exists outside of the Weave is probably very similar to the magic that exists elsewhere. |
| XHereticX06-01-07, 10:55 PM | They're just that good. The raw magic that exists outside of the Weave is probably very similar to the magic that exists elsewhere. Ahh, maybe there was something similar to the Weave on Faerie? |
| GothicDan06-01-07, 10:58 PM | No, but the basic raw magic most likely was still present there. |
| XHereticX06-01-07, 10:59 PM | so, the elves just assimilated into the system because of their natural affinity for raw magic? |
| GothicDan06-01-07, 11:01 PM | That's one theory. And I suppose Corellon and Mystra may have made a deal to let them channel this affinity through the Weave. |
| XHereticX06-01-07, 11:02 PM | That's one theory. And I suppose Corellon and Mystra may have made a deal to let them channel this affinity through the Weave. Hmm, yes, but Mystra still has higher authority over even Elven Magic right? |
| GothicDan06-01-07, 11:06 PM | Not over "Elven High Magic" but over Magic in general while in Realmspace. If Corellon and Mystra met one-on-one in the Outer Planes, in a neutral territory? I think Corellon would be able to outdo her. But that's getting into a completely different subject. |
| MaskedOne06-01-07, 11:11 PM | I.E. Corellon wanted his kids to keep their magic, Mystril was generous and the deal might actually have been struck before my time. Well that or I was puking my guts out at the questionable judgement of certain honorable Tel'Quessir and forgot that Lady Magic occasionally should not be trusted to negotiate alone. One of the two. Anyway while Sun and Moon elves were interlopers, other elven sub-races were semi-native. |
| GothicDan06-02-07, 11:55 AM | Meaning they were there before the Suns and Moons (in SOME areas). But they still interloped. :) |
| Karsus the Mad06-02-07, 03:42 PM | Meaning they were there before the Suns and Moons (in SOME areas). But they still interloped. :) That sounds kinda dirty for some reason. Anyhoo, I thought the elves of Evermeet that were there when it was created are native elves? The ritual had oodles of weird effects, criss crossing through time and all that. Just rambling to myself. |
| GothicDan06-02-07, 06:20 PM | They weren't necessarily native. They were just already there, on the isle, when the other Elves showed up. Since Evermeet may very well be a chunk of Arvandor itself, who knows where exactly they came from? They could have been from Arvandor or could have even been "caught up" in the momentum of the "chunk" as it pulled through planar boundaries and landed in the Prime. |
| Evlreala06-03-07, 01:25 PM | Hey all, just thought I would throw my two cents in(please correct me if I'm wrong, and forgive my spelling. ^_^); 1) The Weave isn't the end all to all magic in Toril, in fact it is defined in its description as being the conduit to which mortals must access magic on Toril. Just because it is the only way (excluding SW) for mortals to access magic, doesnt make it the sourse. Thus why Mystra has to have both Magic and The Weave in her portfolios. Which brings me to my second point. 2) Corellon is a god of magic, him stopping someone from accessing magic is essentialy like taking the batteries out of the remote, or the water out of the river. If he blocks the magic in the first place, theres nothing to draw off of from the Weave. Cause and effect. 3)I have never seen where it says that the Weave is the essence of Toril, just for curisotys sake, can you state your source? 4) If Mystra wanted ot overwrite Corellon's 'magic block,' she can. Mystra as well has the Magic portfolio element, but has a higher divine ranking. The divine mechanics state that if two or more conflicting gods have a 'dispute' over a shared element, the highest DR wins. And last, but not least. 5) As to the innate connection to magic for the elves. I havent heard anything about the connection being to the Weave itself, par se'. But I have seen it mentioned that they do have a connection to magic itself. Explained by their creation in Corellon's history, the elves were borns of his own blooddurring his fights with Gruumsh. |
| Eldritch_Lord06-03-07, 02:45 PM | Here's my random musings and a modern analogy of what I see as the situation, so bear with me: Weave = the internet High Magic user = wireless client Mystra = ISP Corellon = firewall Either party can block access to high magic, but in different ways that others have explained above; neither one could necessarily override the other because Weave =/= High Magic. Possibly, one could allow the caster to ignore the other's block, but I'm not sure about that. On a humorous note, in terms of Mystra-vs.-Corellon: Corellon allows, Mystra blocks = 404 Magic Not Found error Corellon blocks, Mystra allows = "Access Denied. You do not have access to this spell; please refresh and try casting again. Contact your local Weave administrator if the problem persists." |
| Evlreala06-03-07, 02:55 PM | Here's my random musings and a modern analogy of what I see as the situation, so bear with me: Weave = the internet High Magic user = wireless client Mystra = ISP Corellon = firewall Either party can block access to high magic, but in different ways that others have explained above; neither one could necessarily override the other because Weave =/= High Magic. Possibly, one could allow the caster to ignore the other's block, but I'm not sure about that. On a humorous note, in terms of Mystra-vs.-Corellon: Corellon allows, Mystra blocks = 404 Magic Not Found error Corellon blocks, Mystra allows = "Access Denied. You do not have access to this spell; please refresh and try casting again. Contact your local Weave administrator if the problem persists." Weave =/= High Magic Weave =/= Magic Weave = Magic conduit High magic = Magic Corellon =/= Mystra Mechanics = Win |
| Derren S.06-03-07, 05:06 PM | -You are 100% incorrect. Though not reflected in their stats, the Elves of Faerûn are indeed inherently connected to the Weave of magic. This is the reason why Elves form "communal minds" of sorts, can enter into Reverie, recieve resistances against enchantments, and so on. They're just that good. The raw magic that exists outside of the Weave is probably very similar to the magic that exists elsewhere. :rolleyes: Raw Magic =/= Weave A deep connection to raw magic would actually mean they would have less affinity for the weave (refined magic), not more. And when you talk about magical resistences look at dwarves, for abilities at gnomes. Anyway, like the the death domain, the magic domain doesn't grant any power in the realms as there is only one deity for either death or magic in the realms. The other deities with that domains probably have them because they have those domains on other worlds were they wield real power. So it all depends on Mystra if a high magic (epic) spell can be casted or not. A elf probably is able to cast a high magic spell when Mystra approves and Corellon does not but because of the deep connection elves share with Corellon, when Corellon is against it the elf will (maybe even on a subconscious level) decide not to cast the spell. This is probably an automatic reflex and it would need extreme training (and distancing) for a elf to cast a high magic spell when Corellon is against it. |
| Evlreala06-04-07, 02:42 AM | :rolleyes: Raw Magic =/= Weave A deep connection to raw magic would actually mean they would have less affinity for the weave (refined magic), not more. And when you talk about magical resistences look at dwarves, for abilities at gnomes. 'Raw magic' and 'refined magic' is still magic. Never the less, the Weave is not magic itself, but a conduit from which to wield magic through. Without the Weave (or Shadow Weave) raw magic cannot be safely accessed by mortals, elf or not. Anyway, like the the death domain, the magic domain doesn't grant any power in the realms as there is only one deity for either death or magic in the realms. Actually, there are several deities of magic in FR, the rule is there cannot be more then one deity in a <i>pantheon</i> that share the same portfolio elements. The other deities with that domains probably have them because they have those domains on other worlds were they wield real power. Then they wouldn't be in FR in the first place. If you have proof of this claim, by all means cite your source... but opinion =/= fact So it all depends on Mystra if a high magic (epic) spell can be casted or not. Although Mystra can block the casting of any spell (as is indicitive of her 'Spells' domain), High magic is not epic magic. They are completely different things. A elf probably is able to cast a high magic spell when Mystra approves and Corellon does not but because of the deep connection elves share with Corellon, when Corellon is against it the elf will (maybe even on a subconscious level) decide not to cast the spell. s is probably an automatic reflex and it would need extreme training (and distancing) for a elf to cast a high magic spell when Corellon is against it. Despite their origins, there has been no proof of any 'deep connections' with Corellon of that sort in any book I am aware of, please, state your source. By this logic, no elven spellcaster can be of an evil alignment, without ranks specific training against this 'reflex.' If this were the case, then no elven spellcaster can ever just <i>be</i> evil, which is not the case. |
| Derren S.06-04-07, 05:08 AM | Actually, there are several deities of magic in FR, the rule is there cannot be more then one deity in a <i>pantheon</i> that share the same portfolio elements. Yes, but only one deity has the actual power over that domain. (ok, two in the case of magic). All deads are judged by Kelemvor and all not Shadow Weave magic is granted by Mystra, no matter what other dieties have the death or magic domain/portfolion. High magic is not epic magic. They are completely different things. Here you are wrong. High Magic is just the elven word for epic magic. All High magic spells are just Epic spell rituals and have no other requirement than epic spellcasting. And they are not exclusive to elves. When a human somehow learns a high magic spell, has the epic magic feat and can make the spellcraft DC then he can cast it. |
| Karsus the Mad06-04-07, 07:21 AM | High magic is not epic magic. They are completely different things. The Elven High Mage prc is a prc soley based on the use of the Epic Spellcasting feat. In 3.5e High Magic is merely the cultural traditions and methodology of elven Epic Magic. To see some 3.5 High Magic rituals, look in the Epic Spells section of the Player's Guide to Faerun. There's two epic spells, I believe, both denoted with the [High Magic] descriptor. |
| lavekkia06-04-07, 07:37 AM | The Elven High Mage prc is a prc soley based on the use of the Epic Spellcasting feat. In 3.5e High Magic is merely the cultural traditions and methodology of elven Epic Magic. To see some 3.5 High Magic rituals, look in the Epic Spells section of the Player's Guide to Faerun. There's two epic spells, I believe, both denoted with the [High Magic] descriptor. KtM is right on everything. If you search the Epic Boards you will find some threads which try to fix the state of things. In two words we introduced the High Magic descriptor; this descriptor is allowed only to spellcasters with at least one lelvel in the Elven High Mage PrC. This descriptor allow for a series of Factors and Mitigating factors not normally accessible to epic spellcasters. |
| Lord Karsus06-04-07, 10:50 AM | And they are not exclusive to elves. When a human somehow learns a high magic spell, has the epic magic feat and can make the spellcraft DC then he can cast it. -Here, you are incorrect. Elven High Magic is indeed unique to Elves. I don't own the Epic Level Handbook, but I do recall it saying something like, "All Epic Spells are unique". In order to cast an Epic Spell, the Epic Mage must research and develop the spell he/she wants to cast. Long ago, various Elven Selu'Taar researched and developed all of their High Magic spells. Who knows, perhaps Corellon Larethian granted them the knowledge, and they didn't have to even bother researching the rituals. Either way, all High Magic spells are in the possession of the Elves, and they only let a select few learn them. All are Elves. An N'Tel"Quess could develop an Epic Spell that does exactly what a specific Elven High Magic spell does, but his spell is not Elven High Magic. |
| ShadezofDis06-04-07, 11:28 AM | Yes, but only one deity has the actual power over that domain. (ok, two in the case of magic). All deads are judged by Kelemvor and all not Shadow Weave magic is granted by Mystra, no matter what other dieties have the death or magic domain/portfolion. Actually only the Faithless and the False are judged by Kelemvor, otherwise the particular soul's diety picks them up from the Fugue Plane. In other words, should a diety not pick up a particular soul then Kelemvor judges that soul. Source is FRCS, pg 258 and 259. Looked at F&P first, at the various gods with the Death domain but that didn't shed any light that I could see. As for Mystra blockin use of the Shadow Weave, well, we just don't know. Perhaps she could cut the Shadow Weave off from magic but AO prevents her from doing so, which is just as likely as her not being able to cut the Shadow Weave off from magic. We just don't know. |
| ShadezofDis06-04-07, 11:33 AM | Another thought occurred to me. Elven High Magic is typically either fatal or VERY stressful (to the point of fatality), correct? All of these considerations (which, for the most part, I've loved and has justified my creation of this thread :D) has really reinforced my belief that "heavy raw magic" (ie. magic capable of supporting true 10th + magic) is a sort of carcinogen that needs to be filtered to not be as dangerous. I mean, it's not a fully written out theory yet, but the more I consider the "functioning" of magic, high magic and epic magic the more it feels like it'd be consistent with what's happened with magic. In other words, thanks guys. :D |
| GothicDan06-04-07, 12:57 PM | Raw Magic =/= Weave Thank you for the needless repetition. It's always needed. Wait. No it isn't. |
| Lord Karsus06-04-07, 04:26 PM | Elven High Magic is typically either fatal or VERY stressful (to the point of fatality), correct? -Depends on the spell, the caster(s), yada, yada, yada... |
| Stigger06-04-07, 04:28 PM | Hmmm... usually thought it depended more on how much of a prick the DM/dev was feeling like. ;) |
| Lord Karsus06-04-07, 04:31 PM | -Yeah, that too. |
| Evlreala06-04-07, 04:51 PM | Yes, but only one deity has the actual power over that domain. Completely incorrect. All deities with the portfolio element has 'actual power' over that domain, just the diety with the highest DR has the final say in any argument that involves said domain. (ok, two in the case of magic). I hate to tell you this, but theres more then two deities of magic. All deads are judged by Kelemvor and all not Shadow Weave magic is granted by Mystra, no matter what other dieties have the death or magic domain/portfolion. Once again, incorrect. All deads are judged by the patron deitie of the person in question (keep in mind, only if they were a true believer) otherwise, Kelemvor gets the job done. Other deities can grant access to magic, as far as Mystra is concerned, the Weave is publuic access. It has to be by Ao's decree unless specific circumstances occure. Here you are wrong. High Magic is just the elven word for epic magic. All High magic spells are just Epic spell rituals and have no other requirement than epic spellcasting. And they are not exclusive to elves. When a human somehow learns a high magic spell, has the epic magic feat and can make the spellcraft DC then he can cast it. Incorrect. High Elver Magic is a flavor of epic magic, but epic magic is not High Elven Magic. It is in fact restricted to elves, and if a mage from another race learns an epic spell that does the exact same thing as an Elven High Magic spell, it is different. |
| Evlreala06-04-07, 04:52 PM | Hmmm... usually thought it depended more on how much of a prick the DM/dev was feeling like. ;) Words of wisdom. |
| Lord Karsus06-04-07, 05:03 PM | High Elver Magic is a flavor of epic magic, but epic magic is not High Elven Magic. -Ev, I hate to say it, but Elven High Magic has been retconned to simply be one form of Epic Magic. |
| Evlreala06-04-07, 05:09 PM | -Ev, I hate to say it, but Elven High Magic has been retconned to simply be one form of Epic Magic. Unfortunatly this is true, but to say Elven High Magic is Epic Magic is like saying a truck is a sedan, they are both automobiles, but there is a decernable differance. |
| Karsus the Mad06-04-07, 05:49 PM | Unfortunatly this is true, but to say Elven High Magic is Epic Magic is like saying a truck is a sedan, they are both automobiles, but there is a decernable differance. That's more like comparing regular leveled magic with epic magic. Both are magic, but there is a discernable mechanical difference. In 3.5 there is no discernable mechanical difference between elven high magic and epic magic. It is purely a matter of cultural interpretation. It's more accurately compared to a Harely and a Honda. They're called different names, look different, even ride different, but both are still motorcycles in any degree that defines a motorcycle. |
| Lord Karsus06-04-07, 06:07 PM | Unfortunatly this is true, but to say Elven High Magic is Epic Magic is like saying a truck is a sedan, they are both automobiles, but there is a decernable differance. -At least it's still exclusive to Elves. Thankfully that part wasn't touched. :rolleyes: |
| MaskedOne06-04-07, 07:43 PM | While Lady Magic enjoys good propaganda as much as any divinity, it is her will that I point out a particular problem in previous commentary. Corellon Larethian is DvR 19. Mystra is DvR 18. This is not to say that in matters of magic, he can defeat her upon Toril. I believe Greenwood has expressly stated what happens when anyone not named AO directly opposes the Lady in a matter of magic within Toril but DvR is not the deciding factor. |
| Stigger06-04-07, 07:44 PM | Give it a few more sourcebooks that deal with epic stuff, I'm sure that'll change eventually... |
| Evlreala06-05-07, 12:20 AM | That's more like comparing regular leveled magic with epic magic. Both are magic, but there is a discernable mechanical difference. In 3.5 there is no discernable mechanical difference between elven high magic and epic magic. It is purely a matter of cultural interpretation. It's more accurately compared to a Harely and a Honda. They're called different names, look different, even ride different, but both are still motorcycles in any degree that defines a motorcycle. Mechanically they are different in one aspect. Only elfs can use Elven High Magic. It may be a small difference, but it is still there. Maybe my anology would be better suited if I compaired an automatic trans mition (Epic Magic) to a Manual (Elven High Magic) a person who knows only how to drive an automatic can only drive an automatic but both can still drive to their destinition. Better? |
| Evlreala06-05-07, 12:22 AM | While Lady Magic enjoys good propaganda as much as any divinity, it is her will that I point out a particular problem in previous commentary. Corellon Larethian is DvR 19. Mystra is DvR 18. This is not to say that in matters of magic, he can defeat her upon Toril. I believe Greenwood has expressly stated what happens when anyone not named AO directly opposes the Lady in a matter of magic within Toril but DvR is not the deciding factor. I saw this too in Deities and Demigods a while back, and did some digging on candlekeep for an answer. Greenwood states that the transition from Corellon's first home plane to his current drained him of a lot of his power, and his DR in FR is now DR17. |
| MaskedOne06-05-07, 12:32 AM | That is perhaps the most interesting tidbit, I've seen on this thread. Happen to know the date of that quote? |
| Lord Karsus06-05-07, 12:39 AM | -Yeah, I've never heard that. As far as canon , the FR Corellon Larethian doesn't actually have a DR, as Faiths and Pantheons doesn't actually give him one. |
| Evlreala06-05-07, 01:15 AM | I'm afraid I don't recall the date, I can, however tell you that it was not in the past 6-8 months as that is when I saw it last. I'll try to search for it later, and if I find it before you, I'll post a link. |
| Lord Karsus06-05-07, 08:17 AM | I'm afraid I don't recall the date, I can, however tell you that it was not in the past 6-8 months as that is when I saw it last. I'll try to search for it later, and if I find it before you, I'll post a link. -Was it one of his replies at Candlekeep? |
| lavekkia06-05-07, 02:39 PM | That's more like comparing regular leveled magic with epic magic. Both are magic, but there is a discernable mechanical difference. In 3.5 there is no discernable mechanical difference between elven high magic and epic magic. It is purely a matter of cultural interpretation. It's more accurately compared to a Harely and a Honda. They're called different names, look different, even ride different, but both are still motorcycles in any degree that defines a motorcycle. Elves in black leather suit riding Kawasaki motorcycles... Elven Ninjas !!!!! </faint> |
| Lord Karsus06-05-07, 03:09 PM | -Indeed, those would be Elven Ninjas. |
| Evlreala06-05-07, 03:20 PM | -Was it one of his replies at Candlekeep? I believe so, I'm searching it now. |
| Karsus the Mad06-05-07, 04:49 PM | Mechanically they are different in one aspect. Only elfs can use Elven High Magic. It may be a small difference, but it is still there. Maybe my anology would be better suited if I compaired an automatic trans mition (Epic Magic) to a Manual (Elven High Magic) a person who knows only how to drive an automatic can only drive an automatic but both can still drive to their destinition. Better? Slightly better. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut;) Only elves can take levels in the Elven High Mage prestige class. However, there are no mechanical rules (at published...I placed such rules in my own FR when I first noticed the situation...) preventing non-high mages, or even non-elves, from researching and developing the epic spells in the PGtF that have the [Elven High Magic] descriptor. I'm picking on you for fun:) I think the intent is pretty clear. However, it's redundant. Since each caster must research their own spell, placing cultural/technique descriptors such as [Elven High Magic] and [Netherese] onto epic spells result in diddly squat from a rules PoV. They do make them seem more interesting on paper tho':P |
| Lord Karsus06-05-07, 05:35 PM | -Epic Magic seems like it could have used a few more months of development, eh? |
| Karsus the Mad06-05-07, 06:39 PM | -Epic Magic seems like it could have used a few more months of development, eh? indubitably. |
| Alediran06-05-07, 10:08 PM | At least 6 more months. |
| Evlreala06-05-07, 10:42 PM | descriptor. I'm picking on you for fun:) I wouldn't post here if NOBODY had a sense of humor. ^_^ In any case, I am basing my argument on two things. One being the implications that you must learn Elven High Magic from a Elven High Mage and from the mouth (par se') of Sage of Candlekeep (Loremaster Most High) on the forum. I cannot remember the exact date, I do however recall the topic title being 'Race Specific Magic.' If I have misinterpetid the information, please, let me know. I had one other reference, but I am having trouble finding the book. A quote from it being; "By becoming an elven high mage, a caster gains the knowledge to access all the ancient elven magic, be it spells, or rituals of incredible power. Without this knowledge, such powerful rituals and spells remain unknown and incomprehensible." My wife saved the quote, but left out the references. *sigh* So until i find the source, please do not take this quote as any kind of viable evidence, if you, however, do know which book it is from I would be grateful for the info. ^_^ |
| Karsus the Mad06-06-07, 05:35 AM | In any case, I am basing my argument on two things. One being the implications that you must learn Elven High Magic from a Elven High Mage and from the mouth (par se') of Sage of Candlekeep (Loremaster Most High) on the forum. I cannot remember the exact date, I do however recall the topic title being 'Race Specific Magic.' If I have misinterpetid the information, please, let me know. Old Sage? I would take a gander that he's referring to Lore and not game mechanics. In Lore, most assuredly. Which is why I imposed certain house rules upon the instances that I discovered High Magic = Epic Magic. I'm talking of game mechanics only. The only thing that mechanically seperates Epic Magic and Elven High Magic is that Elven High Magic is Epic Magic with the [Elven High Magic] descriptor. Since there are no rules on such cultural/tradition descriptors preventing others not of that culture/tradition from researching and developing them, even such descriptors don't create any mechanical difference. |
| BrennonGoldeye06-06-07, 10:17 AM | Give it a few more sourcebooks that deal with epic stuff, I'm sure that'll change eventually... Oh please please please..........:) |
| Stigger06-07-07, 01:04 AM | Nor should there be a mechanical difference... if you're smart enough to research it and be able to cast it, that [Elven High Magic] thing should make absolutely no difference whatsoever, beyond meaning you probably aren't going to be imposing some potentially suicidally stupid penalty on yourself when you actually do get around to casting the spell... |
| Karsus the Mad06-07-07, 06:55 AM | Nor should there be a mechanical difference... if you're smart enough to research it and be able to cast it, that [Elven High Magic] thing should make absolutely no difference whatsoever, beyond meaning you probably aren't going to be imposing some potentially suicidally stupid penalty on yourself when you actually do get around to casting the spell... I've noticed the trend. |
| ShadezofDis06-07-07, 09:34 AM | Nor should there be a mechanical difference... if you're smart enough to research it and be able to cast it, that [Elven High Magic] thing should make absolutely no difference whatsoever, beyond meaning you probably aren't going to be imposing some potentially suicidally stupid penalty on yourself when you actually do get around to casting the spell... Note: This may be a stupid point, hopefully not but due to my ignorance about epic magic it might just be (stupid). Then what's the point of elven high magic? I mean, it certainly is different from epic magic in the lore sense (AFAIK, I could be incorrect) so I think there should be a mechanical difference. Not that a human (or whatever) mage couldn't duplicate the effects but they shouldn't be casting elven high magic, IMIO (in my ignorant opinion :)) I guess I'd need to know how many instances of elven high magic are actually fatal vs the amount of epic magic that is fatal. Because if elven high magic is fatal more often I'd have to ask myself "why in the hell is that?" since elves have a rich magical tradition and, AFAIK, they can pass on the elven high magic rituals (ie. teach them, rather than having each mage develop their own) Phew, good thing I don't run epic campaigns, I'm so ignorant about this crap. :D |
| Karsus the Mad06-07-07, 10:33 AM | I guess I'd need to know how many instances of elven high magic are actually fatal vs the amount of epic magic that is fatal. Because if elven high magic is fatal more often I'd have to ask myself "why in the hell is that?" since elves have a rich magical tradition and, AFAIK, they can pass on the elven high magic rituals (ie. teach them, rather than having each mage develop their own) Many High Magic rituals in Lore result in severe backlash or even death of the primary (and others) caster. In mechanical terms this would be represented using the Caster Dies and Backlash damage mitigating factors. They're used to reduce the Spellcraft DC required to cast the spell. Epic spells don't have to have such mitigating factors. Technically, neither does High Magic versions of epic spells. It's a thematical thing:) I find it much more potent from a roleplaying view that a caster is willing to sacrifice him/herself to achieve a result. |
| ShadezofDis06-07-07, 10:54 AM | Many High Magic rituals in Lore result in severe backlash or even death of the primary (and others) caster. In mechanical terms this would be represented using the Caster Dies and Backlash damage mitigating factors. They're used to reduce the Spellcraft DC required to cast the spell. Epic spells don't have to have such mitigating factors. Technically, neither does High Magic versions of epic spells. It's a thematical thing:) I find it much more potent from a roleplaying view that a caster is willing to sacrifice him/herself to achieve a result. Hmmm. .. perhaps that's part of the deal with Corellon allowing high magic rituals since they've been "abused" in the past. (though that is a bit up in the air as it's tough to say if the elves are better off despite the horrors of some high magic rituals or if they'd have been better off doing something a little more mundane) ie. Corellon wants to make sure that the high magic rituals are used for a VERY good purpose. Thanks for the details :) |