| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Tomato_Sauce08-01-07, 09:41 PM | I was leafing through the Players Guide to Faerun and saw the Netherese Aracanist prestige class. I was wondering if their is a similar prestige class for Elves such as Elven High Mage or something. |
| dragonheart08-01-07, 10:41 PM | THere is - in the Lost empires book I believe - but it is botched. Sadly they have not brought the flaovur of the 2e elven high magic and its casters along into 3e and so the PrC doesn't match with the earlier materials at all - hopefully one of these days they will actually read our comments here and redo it so it does fit the 2e flavor text - its easy enough to do -as lots of us her can attest from personal experience. |
| The Simbul08-01-07, 11:03 PM | The greatest tragedy regarding the Elven High Mage prestige class (Races of Faerūn) is that it's class features are intended to aid elves in creating mythals, however the prestige class was conceived and published long before the actual rules for mythals were ever written. Simultaneously, the greatest tragedy regarding the rules for mythals themselves (Lost Empires of Faerūn) is that they deviated from all previous precedent for epic spells, in that the relative power of a mythal is limited by your caster level rather than just the (modified) spellcraft DC. As such, because the Elven High Mage prestige class only grants 1/2 caster level progression, and because the total number of powers of a mythal can possess is based on your caster level, you have a scenario where a Mulan human evoker 10/red wizard 10/archmage 5 (caster level 31 with spellpower) can create a more powerful mythal than a sun elf wizard 25/elven high mage 10 (caster level 30)...despite the elf having 10 full levels of XP over the human.. |
| Lord Karsus08-02-07, 12:36 AM | -A Elven High Mage PrC appears in my Elves of Faerūn thread- one that has the general approval of the boards community. |
| Tomato_Sauce08-02-07, 04:00 PM | That's a very cool thread, and the Elven High Mage class that was posted is pretty neat. |
| Purple Dragon Knight08-04-07, 01:22 AM | LK: looking at your Elven Netbook, I'm guessing all of this is fan-generated and not canon correct? (these versions of the Elven High Mage and Bladesinger are vastly more powerful than the official published versions, yes?) |
| GothicDan08-04-07, 02:34 AM | The RoF PrC was WAY underpowered, and I haven't heard anyone that's been happy with the Bladesinger PrCs, especially with things like Duskblade recently out... |
| Delendir08-04-07, 02:46 AM | It's also noteworthy to mention that a lot of the material in the netbook stays true to older material from 2nd edition, which was widely considered "correct". Things like mythals, high mages, high magic rituals, etc. are easily downplayed in 3rd edition of the game but the material in the netbook displays them as they should be and still within the rules of game. |
| Lord Karsus08-04-07, 05:56 PM | LK: looking at your Elven Netbook, I'm guessing all of this is fan-generated and not canon correct? (these versions of the Elven High Mage and Bladesinger are vastly more powerful than the official published versions, yes?) -The Elven High Mage and Bladesinger PrCs in Elves of Faerūn were created primarily using 2e lore with 3e mechanics. They are vastly more true to the canon than the actual WotC "official" versions. |
| Purple Dragon Knight08-05-07, 12:06 AM | -The Elven High Mage and Bladesinger PrCs in Elves of Faerūn were created primarily using 2e lore with 3e mechanics. They are vastly more true to the canon than the actual WotC "official" versions. Understood, and I'm not disagreeing with you (owning the Myth Drannor, Cormanthyr and Netheril 2nd edition books myself). As a DM, do you allow your netbook versions at the table though? if so, how do you contend with the spotlight your EHM player(s) require compared to the more insignificant players at the table? (no sarcasm: genuine question; I, myself, already have challenges with the regular, run-of-the-mill wizard at the table... my high-level campaigns has turned him into someone who can [gasp!] talk down to and blatantly insult the group's paladin! ;) ) |
| runestar08-05-07, 12:20 AM | Note that elven high mage was errata'ed to give full spellcasting progression in lost empires of faerun (and netherese arcanist has full progression as well).:) It still stinks though. |
| Karsus the Mad08-05-07, 02:54 AM | Note that elven high mage was errata'ed to give full spellcasting progression in lost empires of faerun (and netherese arcanist has full progression as well).:) It still stinks though. Actually, that's where it was given half caster progression. |
| runestar08-05-07, 08:05 AM | Actually, that's where it was given half caster progression. Which would make no sense, since it already had 1/2 caster progression to begin with...:confused: I am wondering if that "half-caster progression" was meant to fill in the blanks in the original elven high mage, so that half-caster + half-caster = full caster? |
| Lord Karsus08-05-07, 06:26 PM | As a DM, do you allow your netbook versions at the table though? if so, how do you contend with the spotlight your EHM player(s) require compared to the more insignificant players at the table? (no sarcasm: genuine question; I, myself, already have challenges with the regular, run-of-the-mill wizard at the table... my high-level campaigns has turned him into someone who can [gasp!] talk down to and blatantly insult the group's paladin! ;) ) -I don't campaign in the Realms. ;) -My setting does have Elven High Magi, but they are all NPCs, and not PCs. Never in my life have I had a campaign actually go into "Epic territory". |
| Karsus the Mad08-05-07, 08:09 PM | Which would make no sense, since it already had 1/2 caster progression to begin with...:confused: I am wondering if that "half-caster progression" was meant to fill in the blanks in the original elven high mage, so that half-caster + half-caster = full caster? Weird yep. Lost Empires of Faerun, page 44, the lil' sidebar at the bottom says it all :) +1 per 2 levels for the EHM, +1 per level for the Netherese arcanist. Cooooooooooooookie, I know:turkey: Btw: does anyone know why there's a turkey smily? I was just wondering about that recently....no reason... Demon Turkey.... |
| MerrikCale08-05-07, 08:21 PM | -They are vastly more true to the canon than the actual WotC "official" versions. says you |
| GothicDan08-05-07, 08:27 PM | And me! |
| Karsus the Mad08-05-07, 08:32 PM | As do I....I think I'm going to be sick tho' for admitting that.... |
| Lord Karsus08-05-07, 09:34 PM | says you And me! As do I... -You were saying, Merrik? ;) Btw: does anyone know why there's a turkey smily? I was just wondering about that recently....no reason... Demon Turkey.... -Eh, why not? |
| Alediran08-08-07, 07:07 PM | And me too, don't forget me. |
| The Simbul08-09-07, 12:24 AM | To note a dissenting view I personally do not care for the fan-created Elven High Mage prestige class presented in Elves of Faerūn netbook either. Fan-created content (my own included, along with many long-since abandoned projects people still manage to find and PM me about) tends to lean too heavily in the areas of being overly complex or overly imbalanced. In addition, the more elaborate or complex the content is the more there is for people to dislike or take issue with. In the case of the latter; -The requirement to cast spells as a wizard is both restrictive and incompatible with the magical traditions of Yuireshanyaar, where the overwhelming majority of star elf and wild elf arcane spellcasters are sorcerers. -the ritual wards would be much better suited individual epic spells, rather than a automatically gained class feature that burdens the class with too much text space. -the detect magic and analyze dweomer abilities are an unnecessary addition/level-filler for an epic prestige class IMO, as characters of that level have ample means to acquire either through their existing magical capabilities. -I do not see where the Cooperative Spellcasting feat requirement and Circle Magic class features, actually integrate or are related to with the actual casting of epic spells ("High Magic"). Personally, after the official PrC and after seeing a few attempts at fan-created alternatives, I think it would be better to eliminate the idea of a prestige class altogether. Instead, instead I would have Elven High Mages be epic-level elf sorcerers and wizards who are members of an extremely restrictive guild/organization (as used in DMGII and modified/utilized in City of Splendors: Waterdeep and Champions of Valor), where the Favored in Guild benefit allows members receive a reduction in the costs to research any existing epic spells with the Elven High Magic spell origin, and in creating epic spells that use the mythal seed. In turn, the "dues" of the guild come in the form of a commensurately costly time in servitude to the elven race/community, taking on quests on behalf of the high mages, and defending and safeguarding elven sites, shrines, and mythal-cities. |
| GothicDan08-09-07, 01:50 PM | Suffice it to say that I highly disagree with the Simbul's bases of analyzing a PrC. Given her requirements, what she says make sense - but from a personal point of view, I think complexity is a side-issue. I've never been a fan of streamlining or reducing rules when lore shows a precedent for things being a certain way. Though, as much as I dislike the Sorcerer class, and would remove it entirely from my game (replaced with various Feats Wizards could take), I do agree that it's part of canon now and the PrC should be included to allow Sorcerers. This bit: -the detect magic and analyze dweomer abilities are an unnecessary addition/level-filler for an epic prestige class IMO, as characters of that level have ample means to acquire either through their existing magical capabilities. It was an established precedent that ALL EHM had these abilities. It was harder in general to gain them (hence giving them to EHM as bonuses), so I would say that they should be PREREQS to the PrC, and to keep the flavor of the old class, we could somehow enhance said permanent abilities to reflect the bonus you got in 2E. |
| Blade_Shadow08-09-07, 02:36 PM | says you and me! |
| Zanan08-09-07, 03:38 PM | Elves of Faerūn? Now here comes the fanpower with their own creations who are, by nature and default, better than the official stuff. Haven't we heard that before? :rolleyes: Who needs PrC for Elves anyway, as you can count the EHM on one hand these days :evillaugh |
| GothicDan08-09-07, 04:39 PM | Zanan, where are your citation regarding the number of Elven High Magi? And I have to say that I find your accusations about the Elven Netbook offensive. No one here runs around decrying your fan-created mechanics about Drow as haphazard in any way. |
| Zanan08-10-07, 04:05 AM | Zanan, where are your citation regarding the number of Elven High Magi? And I have to say that I find your accusations about the Elven Netbook offensive. No one here runs around decrying your fan-created mechanics about Drow as haphazard in any way. Races of Faerūn, Elven High Magi entry. Though you should know this, since we had discussion on them before. The Last Mythal series takes up on this and makes it pretty clear that the number of High Magi running about is pretty small and that it takes ages to join them, as the "hero" of the series found out. Offensive? Come on. I just took a jovial sidesweep at Lord Karsus' The Elven High Mage and Bladesinger PrCs in Elves of Faerūn were created primarily using 2e lore with 3e mechanics. They are vastly more true to the canon than the actual WotC "official" versions. No need to take up the sword and shield for the Elven Community. If you care to remember, I never said something like "more true to the official version" in relation to links to self-created PrC of mine, just offer them as alternatives. That is the way forward ... and surely one that does not "offend" the designers of the official versions. |
| Stigger08-10-07, 04:34 AM | Gotta admit, Zanan's got a definite point there about pronouncements of remaining more 'true' to lore... comes off as a little... dunno, distasteful, arrogant, not terribly tactful... could have phrased that a lot better. |
| GothicDan08-10-07, 02:40 PM | I really don't think the head of the Elven Netbook (LK) cares about appearing arrogant. When someone feels something is truthful, they should be proud of it until proven wrong. :) At least, I expect that's how he thinks - we're both Sun Elves after all. If you're not willing to put the full force of your will behind something, you're just being a wishy-washy Moon Elf! |
| Karsus the Mad08-10-07, 03:04 PM | Of course he's arrogant. He's a Karsus afterall, and they're always arrogant little pieces of...oh wait...nevermind:angelhide |
| GothicDan08-10-07, 03:06 PM | A Sun Elf Karsus would implode under the weight of his own hubris! |
| Zanan08-10-07, 05:36 PM | I really don't think the head of the Elven Netbook (LK) cares about appearing arrogant. When someone feels something is truthful, they should be proud of it until proven wrong. :) At least, I expect that's how he thinks - we're both Sun Elves after all. If you're not willing to put the full force of your will behind something, you're just being a wishy-washy Moon Elf! And that gives him or you the right to brass people off or accuse me of being offensive? Time to get the miners to work beneath your island again, it seems. :nonono: |
| GothicDan08-10-07, 05:44 PM | Rights are completely artificial constructs of a society. Since there's no greater society governing such things, he has any right he can defend. I think the 'you have no right!' argument is one of the most bogus ones that have developed in modern society, and I automatically lose a little respect for anyone who employs it. Nature gives us the ability to have any rights we can take. Call me Nietzsche. |
| Karsus the Mad08-10-07, 07:11 PM | And that gives him or you the right to brass people off or accuse me of being offensive? Time to get the miners to work beneath your island again, it seems. Actually, yes, it does. Lord Karsus has the "right" to do as he pleases, insofar as others agree with what he does (which obviously many do agree or don't care enough). I personally have no love of the Elven Netbook or the content within, given that's it's from an elven point of view (I'm Netherese ;) ) and is written from that perspective. However, those therein have every right to say whatever it is they desire to say for the simple reason that none other have opposed them in their sayings. To shorten my opinion, I'll just say I agree with Gothic Dan. I'll add this tho': If I can take it, then it's mine. If I can enforce it, then it's right :) Meh...I'm a Nietzsche Poster Child.... |
| Lord Karsus08-10-07, 11:45 PM | -Yeah, so, ummm...:shifty: -I guess some things are just better left unsaid. So out of character for me... |
| GothicDan08-10-07, 11:47 PM | It's okay, buddy. Us Netherese and Ar'Tel-Quessir'll stick up for ya'. ;) |
| Lord Karsus08-10-07, 11:50 PM | -When I've got heralds like that, there no reason to ever stick up for myself, myself! :D |
| Zanan08-11-07, 10:01 AM | Heralds or lap-dogs? Honestly, strange things happen hereabouts. First people start putting their stuff above the original material and once I utter a line of disapproval on such a behaviour, Gothic Dan does a Finbar O'Fended and accuses me of offending him over the Elven Netbook, which I did not target as such at all. And once I make it clear, people start citing psychomaniacs to underline their right to argue in the unappropriate way they did. Well well. Won't comment on this any longer, rather solely on the topic at hand. |
| Alleran08-11-07, 10:12 AM | First people start putting their stuff above the original material Perhaps because they (and others) honestly believe that's the case. I would say that it is a type of blindness to simply disagree solely because it isn't "official". Not all "official" 3/3.5 stuff is true to the lore, after all - inaccurate conversions do exist (I'm looking at you, LoD-Larloch). |
| GothicDan08-11-07, 10:16 AM | Psychomaniacs? Well, I guess all of the smartest people in history have been accused of mental instability. (I'm looking at YOU, Einstein and Tesla!) Are you still stuck on this illusion of 'rights'? (And what's "unappropriate" mean? ;) ) |
| Zanan08-11-07, 12:20 PM | Psychomaniacs? Well, I guess all of the smartest people in history have been accused of mental instability. (I'm looking at YOU, Einstein and Tesla!) Are you still stuck on this illusion of 'rights'? (And what's "unappropriate" mean? ;) ) I refrain on commenting on this, all of it. @ Alleran ... I'm not saying that everything official is "up-to scratch" or true to lore, but that one should not try to diminish the work of the WotC-designers in their own back yard. There has been, race- and/or class-wise, utter tosh being presented at the boards, as well as stuff which was quite brilliant. Some more down to the older lorebooks, some not. Everyone involved got their best intentions and lots of brain into it, and so too did the designers of official material. Just keep that in mind and we are all fine and well. Whether you actually like the designers' interpretation of the official stuff is another matter. And, of course, one has to keep in mind that those said designers may know a bit more about future publications and thus intentions for chaps like Larloch than we do. Hence they may very well change old lore accordingly. |
| Purple Dragon Knight08-11-07, 07:48 PM | Well spoken Zanan. We're all here for our love of the Realms, and to call down ANY contribution, be it official or fan-generated, is absurd. |
| Alleran08-11-07, 10:18 PM | I'm not saying that everything official is "up-to scratch" or true to lore, but that one should not try to diminish the work of the WotC-designers in their own back yard. I wouldn't say that it's deliberately attempting to diminish it, just that it's a viable alternative for something that doesn't work very well as-is (now, if it was a ridiculously broken alternative, then I'd probably be one of the first to call "elf bias") that holds more to previous lore than the current one does. Mistakes and oversights in official stuff do happen, after all. :) Everyone involved got their best intentions and lots of brain into it, and so too did the designers of official material. Just keep that in mind and we are all fine and well. Whether you actually like the designers' interpretation of the official stuff is another matter. The cardinal difference is that WotC designers more often than not do it as a job - they need to make money. In any case, as things stand, I dislike the way that the EHM class was presented because I don't think it was true to previous incarnations. That doesn't diminish what the designers have done in any way, I don't think. Since there is another version which to me looks more like what the EHM class should be, taking previous editions, lore and the like into account, then I'm going to choose the alternate version. Hence they may very well change old lore accordingly. I'm of the opinion that you can't really "change" lore like that. Stats should reflect the lore, not the other way around. After all, without the lore, it's just a bunch of numbers. |
| Karsus the Mad08-12-07, 07:11 AM | Perhaps because they (and others) honestly believe that's the case. That's precisely what it is, at least for me. Well spoken Zanan. We're all here for our love of the Realms, and to call down ANY contribution, be it official or fan-generated, is absurd. It's precisely for our love of the Realms that we do state our opinions of what the designers do, whether it's a positive or negative opinion. To not point out what we believe to be errors or simple inaccuracies, or in some other manner show disapproval (or approval) as to what WotC does with the Realms, is imho, absurd. Just because LK stated his opinion that the EHM in Elves of Faerun is more true to the lore is just that, his opinion (one that many agree with and many don't agree with), and is hardly a derogative "call down" term towards WotC or the designers. However, as is the case with the EHM, all one has to do is look at the EHM in Races of Faerun and the EHM in Elves of Faerun, and compare them to the Elven High Mage kit in CEoE, and make up ones own mind :) |
| Stigger08-12-07, 11:39 AM | I think the point that was being made is that there is a difference between saying that a designer dropped the ball and should have thought something out more than they apparently did, and saying that said designer betrayed the lore of the Realms and should be drawn and quartered, never to darken the pages of lore again... which I don't think anyone's done yet, but you know how Zanan and Dan get around each other, going to extremes in a hurry... one wonder what that says really, but I don't care for speculating too much on that... ;) |
| Karsus the Mad08-12-07, 01:59 PM | I think the point that was being made is that there is a difference between saying that a designer dropped the ball and should have thought something out more than they apparently did, and saying that said designer betrayed the lore of the Realms and should be drawn and quartered, never to darken the pages of lore again... which I don't think anyone's done yet, but you know how Zanan and Dan get around each other, going to extremes in a hurry... one wonder what that says really, but I don't care for speculating too much on that... ;) You are....hmmmmmmmm....absolutely correct ;) It certainly isn't a call for someone to come in "guns blazing", reading, but not understanding what is posted, and formulating pure speculation against those that happen to share an opposed opinion, inferring that they're "lap-dogs" simply because they provide actual, and personal, reasons for their opinion. Bleh...to each their own :) <wanders off to perform evil probing experiments on elves> |
| Zanan08-12-07, 04:47 PM | Mind your tongue Karsus, or I will be getting around you too! All guns ... well, make that ... scepters and rods blazing! :evillaugh: @all ... just in case, this is not about keeping your opinions back, just the way how you voice them. As for old lore and new "namesakes", I for one have a lot of issues with 3E PrC which emulate former specialty priest classes. Hence I create my own versions and "offer them as alternatives". |
| Karsus the Mad08-12-07, 05:01 PM | Mind your tongue Karsus, or I will be getting around you too! All guns ... well, make that ... scepters and rods blazing! :evillaugh: Bring it on spider kisser:emp: Just be sure to pack enough magic to allow us to have some fun :mage: :pint: Maybe we can capture some nice surface elves to disect? ;) |
| godbeepit08-12-07, 07:46 PM | Bring it on spider kisser:emp: Just be sure to pack enough magic to allow us to have some fun :mage: :pint: Maybe we can capture some nice surface elves to disect? ;) Maybe Dan can provide? |
| Lord Karsus08-13-07, 12:09 AM | Maybe we can capture some nice surface elves to disect? ;) -As the more sensible- and Elven- third, I disapprove. |
| GothicDan08-13-07, 02:17 AM | I really like Asteroid M. And if you think really hard, you can find the topicality. |
| The_Shaman08-13-07, 06:54 AM | Bring it on spider kisser:emp: Just be sure to pack enough magic to allow us to have some fun :mage: :pint: Maybe we can capture some nice surface elves to disect? ;) Cool, I'm bringing the popcorn. |
| MaskedOne08-14-07, 11:42 AM | Maybe Dan can provide? Nope, elf collection is my job today. I want control of KtM's targets and fighting him would require effort. KtM, you prefer your victims getting a chance to try and fight or disabled prior to delivery? |
| GothicDan08-14-07, 09:09 PM | MaskedOne is a very cute acolyte... |
| Karsus the Mad08-15-07, 09:41 AM | Nope, elf collection is my job today. I want control of KtM's targets and fighting him would require effort. KtM, you prefer your victims getting a chance to try and fight or disabled prior to delivery? I prefer my test subjects to be fully capable of self defense (fully prepared spells, full hp, and all the items they can carry). It's simply not as much fun otherwise :D |
| godbeepit08-15-07, 12:37 PM | I prefer my test subjects to be fully capable of self defense (fully prepared spells, full hp, and all the items they can carry). It's simply not as much fun otherwise :D So you like 'em feisty, eh? ;) |
| Alediran08-15-07, 01:32 PM | He's a fair mageduelist. |
| Stigger08-15-07, 07:06 PM | Don't believe in fair fights myself... I generally take them as weakened and disoriented as I can get them. Can't help it, its the American in me. :D |
| MarkHall08-15-07, 07:28 PM | Don't believe in fair fights myself... I generally take them as weakened and disoriented as I can get them. Can't help it, its the American in me. :D "I'll shoot a man in a fair fight... or if I think he's about to start a fair fight." |
| yarethon08-15-07, 10:51 PM | To note a dissenting view I personally do not care for the fan-created Elven High Mage prestige class presented in Elves of Faerūn netbook either. Fan-created content (my own included, along with many long-since abandoned projects people still manage to find and PM me about) tends to lean too heavily in the areas of being overly complex or overly imbalanced. In addition, the more elaborate or complex the content is the more there is for people to dislike or take issue with. In the case of the latter; -The requirement to cast spells as a wizard is both restrictive and incompatible with the magical traditions of Yuireshanyaar, where the overwhelming majority of star elf and wild elf arcane spellcasters are sorcerers. -the ritual wards would be much better suited individual epic spells, rather than a automatically gained class feature that burdens the class with too much text space. -the detect magic and analyze dweomer abilities are an unnecessary addition/level-filler for an epic prestige class IMO, as characters of that level have ample means to acquire either through their existing magical capabilities. -I do not see where the Cooperative Spellcasting feat requirement and Circle Magic class features, actually integrate or are related to with the actual casting of epic spells ("High Magic"). Personally, after the official PrC and after seeing a few attempts at fan-created alternatives, I think it would be better to eliminate the idea of a prestige class altogether. Instead, instead I would have Elven High Mages be epic-level elf sorcerers and wizards who are members of an extremely restrictive guild/organization (as used in DMGII and modified/utilized in City of Splendors: Waterdeep and Champions of Valor), where the Favored in Guild benefit allows members receive a reduction in the costs to research any existing epic spells with the Elven High Magic spell origin, and in creating epic spells that use the mythal seed. In turn, the "dues" of the guild come in the form of a commensurately costly time in servitude to the elven race/community, taking on quests on behalf of the high mages, and defending and safeguarding elven sites, shrines, and mythal-cities. Just to say: that is how I prefer to see it as well. No offense to karsus and the elven netbook; but specifically on this matter, I would rather treat the high mages as an organization ( not a prc). |
| Zarreth_Nessad08-16-07, 04:24 AM | That sounds like it's an excellent idea... someone should make a writeup of the organization and post it on the boards. It just makes so much more sense. |
| Karsus the Mad08-16-07, 02:10 PM | He's a fair mageduelist. It's not exactly fair. My hubris and arrogance is enough to drown out any oppenent without having to resort to my spells:smirk: Besides, if they weren't completely prepared, it wouldn't last beyond the first round. If they come confident in themselves, it lasts to the second, and I get an extra round of entertainment:) |
| Lord Karsus08-16-07, 10:35 PM | That sounds like it's an excellent idea... someone should make a writeup of the organization and post it on the boards. -It's already a heading- a heading that, as of yet, no one has chosen to write about. It's there, waiting...(HINT HINT, NUDGE NUDGE) |
| 42108-17-07, 04:52 AM | Sorry if this is a bit blunt but, a High Mage PrC is quite useless. For a PC: Who cares, they will never join anyway !!! They never recruit before the elf reach 450, and the basic apprenticeship lasts for 75 years ! So unless you play a elf&dragon-only campaign just forget about it. Becoming a High Mage is just a fine and honorable way to explain the "retirement" of an elvish PC. From C:EoE p127 It should be obvious that the class of High Mage and its associated magic are accessible exclusively to NPCs. Should a PC embrace the ways of High Magic, it removes the character from play and places him under the control of the DM. High Magics intended campaign use is to add power and mystique to the elves, rather than provide major campaignbreaking magic for player-characters use. :weep: the Good Ol'Days For a DM: Like any cameo of a truely powerfull wizard (e.g. Larloch, Elminster, ....), the damn thing will do what the DM need them to do. In the most uncommon case, the DM might need detailed stats, then a elvish wizard with an insane number of epic spell should do the trick. Grant him some of the "lesser abilities" from C:EoE p128. they can easily be explained by some weird ritual cast by his fellow HM on him. So in the end, the only use for the PrC is for the number-addicted among us who want to proves their point in endless self-respawning thread like "Red Wizard X can defeat High Mage Y" or "Tam can destroy the Srinshee". |
| Stigger08-17-07, 04:57 AM | I hated that about the good old days to be honest... I want my PCs to be able to shake the pillars of heavens if they so choose, personally. That's being said as a DM, since I hardly ever get to actually play any of the PCs I occassionally come up with. ;) |
| Karsus the Mad08-17-07, 07:23 AM | I hated that about the good old days to be honest... I want my PCs to be able to shake the pillars of heavens if they so choose, personally. That's being said as a DM, since I hardly ever get to actually play any of the PCs I occassionally come up with. ;) Ditto. If my pc's want fame and prestige, they'll have to earn it, but I won't deny it. Besides, 75 years is a long apprenticeship. They're not going to be gaming until my grandkids can take over my campaign:P |
| GothicDan08-17-07, 09:44 PM | I prefer continuous probability. If you make PCs fresh from the start, there's really no logical way they can achieve enough XP to 'shake the heavens,' since the rest of the world progresses, too (unless you're in Eberron). |
| Lord Karsus08-18-07, 12:19 AM | Sorry if this is a bit blunt but, a High Mage PrC is quite useless. -Unless a campaign begins , or progresses beyond Level 20, and some do. Therefore, it is not useless. |
| 42108-18-07, 02:50 AM | Unless a campaign begins , or progresses beyond Level 20, and some do. Therefore, it is not useless. With a regular elf wizard starting at 140 years old, and a minimun of 450 years required with an initial training of 75 years, an elf PC could begins as an High Mage but becoming one is nigh impossible. Since campaign usually doesn't begins around 25th level, with a PC roster like this: a High Mage, a netherese arcanist, and a young prismatic dragon... I do not think we really need a PrC. And please do not forget that High Mage usually don't crawl in damp dungeon, they have plenty of duty at home. Granted an imaginative PC or DM can find a use for it, but I would not consider a High Mage PrC an absolute requirement for an FR campaign. |
| Zanan08-18-07, 03:56 AM | Well, there are dozens of PrC who look, at first glance, quite useless, some even for NPCs. Be that the Cancer Mage (BoVD), The Elven High Mage (RoF), Alienist (CArc?) and the like. About 3 in 1000 players will look at them and less than half of those will take them ... thus making the space they were published in rather wasted. (BTW, no disrespect to the designers here, it's just an objective remark.) The EHM is an epic caster, always was, always has been. It is a goal few PCs hope to achieve, but those who do become legend among their people. MAke sure that you do mix flair with rules here. In strict game-speech, the class may not offer what people would hope from an Epic Character (BTW, being an Epic Caster is in itself quite powerful and you can obviously cast epic spells which emulate what every individual player thinks to be more Elven than what the EHM represents), but rest assured, if you happen into any Elven village or town and people notice your rank and title, you will be revered like a demigod. It is not all about rules here ... |
| GothicDan08-19-07, 01:13 AM | In Cormanthyr, at least, the identities of the Elven High Magi weren't known to the public... |
| 42108-19-07, 07:30 AM | Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves p128 As a High Mage, the elf receives noble status within all elven communities. |
| GothicDan08-19-07, 01:19 PM | But I was fairly sure in Myth Drannor, the city itself, not all High Magi's identities were disclosed. Of course they'd receive noble status - if they told everyone who and what they were. |
| 42108-19-07, 05:04 PM | Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves p125 High Magic is known to the elves, though its practices and practitioners are secret (or, at least, not publicly acknowledged). As an open secret, High Magic is never discussed, nor are High Mages officially recognized as anything other than wizards; [...]. While most elves are unaware of the identities of many High Mages, some have been publicly witnessed as such practitioners, such as the Srinshee. Despite a lack of official status and acknowledgement, known or suspected High Mages are granted greater respect due to their hidden power (and the fear and respect it engenders). |
| GothicDan08-19-07, 10:45 PM | That's what I remembered. :) |
| Zanan08-20-07, 04:40 AM | Why don't you read the Last Mythal series, hm? Some material does indeed get updated, sometimes only in novels.;) |
| Lord Karsus08-20-07, 09:33 AM | Why don't you read the Last Mythal series, hm? Some material does indeed get updated, sometimes only in novels.;) -Because, overall, it smelled of pungent provelone. The smell is still stuck in my nose, and it's been months since I finished Final Gate. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin08-20-07, 01:54 PM | -Because, overall, it smelled of pungent provelone. The smell is still stuck in my nose, and it's been months since I finished Final Gate. :rofl: I've made my opinion on that series known already... |
| Zanan08-20-07, 03:07 PM | No disrespect, Lord Karsus and Lady Rinonalyrna, but your opinion on the novels do not make them any less canon. Anyone out there able to explain "provelone" to me? Thanks in advance. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin08-20-07, 03:18 PM | No disrespect, Lord Karsus and Lady Rinonalyrna, but your opinion on the novels do not make them any less canon. Who was arguing that they weren't "canon"? Not me. I honestly don't care whether they are canon or not. Anyone out there able to explain "provelone" to me? Thanks in advance. PRO-veh-LONE (long "o"). I'm no expert at this, though. |
| Lord Karsus08-20-07, 03:19 PM | No disrespect, Lord Karsus and Lady Rinonalyrna, but your opinion on the novels do not make them any less canon. -Canoninity does not make them less smelly, however. Anyone out there able to explain "provelone" to me? Thanks in advance. -It's how 'Provolone' is spelled over here. |
| GothicDan08-20-07, 06:05 PM | The Last Mythal. Lawl. |
| 42108-21-07, 04:37 AM | Why don't you read the Last Mythal series, hm? Some material does indeed get updated, sometimes only in novels. Let's try to write it in a efficient and orderly way: - Authors' knowledge of realmslore is sometimes lacking. Example: The RotA trilogy is a rather good fantasy novel, but as a realms novel it display a wide range of inconsistencies. - Novels are usually written from a subjective point of view, they relfect the opinion of the characters involved. As such they are inherently biased, and we should not extrapolate rules from them. Example: A drow might describes surface elves are evil being, it does not means that the alignement of moon elves will be updated to Chaotic Evil. - Authors, much like DM, often « bend » the rules. They create « houserules » for their novel, mostly because the characters featured are often exception. However, rules should not made out of an exception. No disrespect, Lord Karsus and Lady Rinonalyrna, but your opinion on the novels do not make them any less canon. Novels being canon is precisely the problem. A quick look at the forum shows that most of the flaming on the boards come from the novel. Novels should be « sample campaign », example of what a DM can do, definitely not a description of what is happening in the realms. Not only we have end up with numerous inconsistencies, but also with a drastic reduction of a DM control over his campaign. A DM should have the option to implement them or not in his home campaign. It strikes me as most ludicrous that if DM choose ignore a novel because it does not fit in his campaign, as a result he should ignore most of the lore featured in the following books, making them quite useless. And hardly worth buying. |
| Zanan08-21-07, 04:44 AM | @ Gothic Dan ... does this mean that while constantly promoting Mrs. Cunningham's Evermeet as non-plus-ultra canon (remember all these debates about Lolth?) you disregard canon as presented in the Last Mythal series? Did you ever touch one of the books? I for one regard them top notch in writing and providing decent lore, apart from the climactic battle that is. As for "provelone", I was actually looking for a clue what this actually mean, or rather, is. But thanks to the "provolone" remark, I have now determined that it is some sort of Italian cheese. I guess some on here scratch on the borders of a CoC ear-bashing from the WizOs :D |
| Lord Karsus08-21-07, 09:09 AM | But thanks to the "provolone" remark, I have now determined that it is some sort of Italian cheese. -It's quite good, too, especially on top of roast beef sandwiches. Every so often, when G-d is looking the over way, I mix my meats and dairy. Mmm...:cloud9: |
| Karsus the Mad08-21-07, 10:12 AM | @ Gothic Dan ... does this mean that while constantly promoting Mrs. Cunningham's Evermeet as non-plus-ultra canon (remember all these debates about Lolth?) you disregard canon as presented in the Last Mythal series? Obviously :) |
| Lord Karsus08-21-07, 10:41 AM | @ Gothic Dan ... does this mean that while constantly promoting Mrs. Cunningham's Evermeet as non-plus-ultra canon (remember all these debates about Lolth?) you disregard canon as presented in the Last Mythal series? -Ironically, Evermeet: Island of Elves is not canon. It was written by Danillo Thann, and as such, should not be taken word for word, as his manuscript may contain errors- intentional, unintentional, or otherwise. |
| GothicDan08-21-07, 02:47 PM | Zanan, I am not arbiter of canon. That's WotC. So your question doesn't make much sense to me. I don't need to read them to learn the lore. I don't like battle scenes. Richard Baker's writing style doesn't do much for me (I read part of the Shadow Stone). I have no reason to read them. |
| Zanan08-21-07, 02:49 PM | -Ironically, Evermeet: Island of Elves is not canon. It was written by Danillo Thann, and as such, should not be taken word for word, as his manuscript may contain errors- intentional, unintentional, or otherwise. Well, that is your opinion on the book. Mine is quite similar. Nonetheless, what's in there is canon - as with all novels that described existing FR lore or whic have been backed up by subsequent game material. Both is the case with Evermeet. BTW, I doubt that Mr. Thann was present when these ancient elves met the Ilythiiri wizard GD loves to mention oh so often, Kar'nalist (sp?). It's just another way of writing a novel. |
| GothicDan08-21-07, 03:06 PM | The story was passed on in legends and myths, just like modern fairytales were. |
| Zanan08-21-07, 04:15 PM | The story was passed on in legends and myths, just like modern fairytales were. There's a class which features an ability which is the namesake of a word which I would use here: evasion. |
| GothicDan08-21-07, 04:20 PM | Grammatically, shouldn't that be 'rogue?' And if you consider explanation and evasion, then so be it. Believe whatever makes you happy in life. |
| MarkusTay6308-21-07, 04:29 PM | Evermeet was written in the style of 2e, a style I very much enjoy BTW. That means that the 'facts' in the book are being reported at best 3rd hand, and are therefore subject to error. That does not mean Thann was trying to mislead people on purpose - he did the best he could while collecting information from a race of people who prefer to keep their 'dirty laundry' locked away in the closet. The book is most certainly canon, but the facts presented therein are not neccessarily so - several designers/authors have said as much. All of those same personages also go on to say that Elain did an AMAZING job reconciling all of the disparate facts. She, like Danilo Thann, did the best she could with the often contradictory nature of Elven Lore. For all we know, Ka'narlist was a hero of his people, and tried to save the NATIVE Dark Elves from the viscious expansionist invaders. However, history is written by the winners, so we will never know the truth, will we? ;) We are forced to assume that the stories and Myths of the Elven people are true at face value, because there were no humans recording history at that time. Perhaps the dragons know the truth, but they're not telling..... Now, back on Topic - Who cares? By this time next year High Magic will be gone - there will be 25 levels of spells (:D ), ALL incorporated into a SINGLE system of magic. No more 'Epic and High' - Epic will just be a term describing 20+ spellcasters; nothing more then a title, really. Just as it should be. :devil: |
| Lord Karsus08-21-07, 08:48 PM | Well, that is your opinion on the book. Mine is quite similar. Nonetheless, what's in there is canon - as with all novels that described existing FR lore or whic have been backed up by subsequent game material. Both is the case with Evermeet. -Elaine Cunningham has specifically stated that her novel is an account written by Danillo Thann, and as such, the information within should not be considered completely canon. Information that is contained there within has been made canon with subsequent releases of other information (Lost Empires of Faerūn, the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, and so on). Information that is contained within the book that has not been verified in other sources is not considered canon, and as Dan mentioned, is considered myth, legend, heresay, or factually incorrect (to a degree or another). BTW, I doubt that Mr. Thann was present when these ancient elves met the Ilythiiri wizard GD loves to mention oh so often, Kar'nalist (sp?). It's just another way of writing a novel. -Obviously he wasn't there, as Danillo is not 25,000+ years old. But, if you paid attention, the novel has frequent interludes, where Danillo recieves letters from other sages (Khelben, Elminster, and so on) commenting on the fruits of his labor. The tome was to be a gift to Arilyn, and was written by the bard based on his own bardic knowledge, and research by himself and others. -It's spelled Ka'Narlist, by the way. I don't think Dan talks about him too often, either. |
| Zanan08-22-07, 04:14 AM | Grammatically, shouldn't that be 'rogue?' It could have been 'monk' or 'ranger' as well though. So you only get a 1/3 point. And if you consider explanation and evasion, then so be it. Believe whatever makes you happy in life. Hey, isn't that my line at the end of a debate? :D Lord Karsus Let me see, we knew about the FR Seldarine from the F&A series, all 11 deities ... ahem ... powers. F&P as well as the FRCS and PGtF have listed them as well. F&A goes a long way in describing what is FR lore regarding deities and what is not. Evermeet gives us a little flair on that divine history as well, mostly based on DD et al. Obviously, we are straying even farther off topic here when debating Evermeet as such. My fault though. Anyway, we know how the FR Seldarine looks and we know that FR cosmology is a body separated from other cosmologies nowadays - even though there are namesakes and look-alikes. -It's spelled Ka'Narlist, by the way. I don't think Dan talks about him too often, either. He does that while you are dealing with the provolone ... @ MarkusTay ... This time next year we will actually have a first glance of the "new" FR and its magic and all. So far, people appear to love speculating on speculations and tidbits of info leaking here and there. You wonder whether any decent bit of rule lore or background lore will be published on the website or in books, for ... what would be the point if it goes out of the window soon afterwards? |
| Lord Karsus08-22-07, 10:47 AM | He does that while you are dealing with the provolone ... -Something tell me he doesn't like provolone, either. I'm going out on a limb, but it might just offend his sense of smell. At this point, Ka'Narlist probably smells like provolone, what, being over 25,000 years old and all. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin08-22-07, 02:08 PM | Well, that is your opinion on the book. Mine is quite similar. Nonetheless, what's in there is canon - as with all novels that described existing FR lore or whic have been backed up by subsequent game material. Both is the case with Evermeet. Zanan, what you're saying about novels being "canon" is correct. But I think the more important question is "How is that important?" Having a canon timeline is important to WotC, certainly. But Realms fans (players, DMs, readers, plain old fans) need not be beholden to it. As Lord Karsus pointed out, some canon lore is "smelly". If it smells bad to me, I will most likely ignore it. I won't expect everyone else to do the same. And yes, provolene is an Italian cheese.:) |
| MarkusTay6308-23-07, 09:22 PM | Hey! Provolone is delicious! :P Ka'nalist would probably smell like rotten pickles by now - after all, he has been stuck under a rock at the bottom of the Shining Sea for 25,000 years. In fact, he probably looks one of Davey Jones's crew at this point, all covered with barnacles, and hermit crabs living in his ears. |
| Lord Karsus08-24-07, 10:32 AM | Hey! Provolone is delicious! :P Ka'nalist would probably smell like rotten pickles by now - after all, he has been stuck under a rock at the bottom of the Shining Sea for 25,000 years. -I know, that's what I'm sayin'. I'd much rather have him, you know, not encased in stone, however. Who knows, though...That would be an awesome plothook for WotC to pick up on, though I doubt they'd ever do it. I think I might have to 'port him into my campaign setting, as an evil, behind-the-scenes mastermind. |
| GothicDan08-24-07, 03:26 PM | That's the kind of villain I'd be. Or one like Larloch. More coincidentally evil. |
| Lord Karsus08-24-07, 10:36 PM | -I have a friend who is going for his PhD next year, whose last name Doyle. Isn't Dr. Doyle the perfect name for a nemesis of James Bond? :D |
| GothicDan08-24-07, 10:51 PM | That's awesome. What's his degree? |
| Lord Karsus08-24-07, 10:54 PM | -To keep on topic, it's not Elven High Magic...:shifty: (English Literature) |
| GothicDan08-24-07, 10:57 PM | Very wise. He's not an Elf, after all. (English, giggle.) |
| Purple Dragon Knight08-24-07, 11:52 PM | And he is probably not a human Armathor either. (English? LOL) |
| Lord Karsus08-25-07, 05:45 PM | -Yeah, probably not. (Hey, it's better than scatology...) |
| Purple Dragon Knight08-25-07, 08:45 PM | Nevertheless, most enemies of the Fair Folk never wield EHM, and they seem to be doing a good job keeping elf numbers down... (Now, a James Bond nemesis called Dr. Doyle with a PhD in Scatology would make for a very interesting plot! I can see a lot of "Oh sh%t!" moments... no pun intended! :D ) |
| Arbourean08-30-07, 07:51 PM | Elven High Magic = deus ex machina. At least in certain novels |
| Karsus the Mad08-30-07, 08:17 PM | Elven High Magic = deus ex machina. At least in certain novels Despite their canonicty (real word?), novels don't exactly present hard facts. |
| godbeepit08-30-07, 09:39 PM | Actually, KtM it should be 'canonitis' the way some people act. :P ;) (LAWL, Dr. Doyle the scatologist) |
| Lord Karsus08-30-07, 09:59 PM | Despite their canonicty (real word?), novels don't exactly present hard facts. -Even though they are told (usually) in the omniscient third-person, as KtM said, the words still come from the mind of the writer, who may or may not be 100%, regarding his/her facts. |