Faith, Worship, Belief... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Faith, Worship, Belief... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TiamatTheDragonGod
11-15-07, 04:11 PM So according to D&D one has to "worship" a deity in order to not be sent to the wall and "dissipate".

I was wondering what "Worship" means... what the difference to believing in them is, and what happens should you "believe" in all the gods, but not worship one in particular, but rather all of them as a whole, or anyone of them as you please...

Do you still get sent to the wall and if so... why?

Thanks,
Tiamat
johnkretzer
11-15-07, 04:28 PM So according to D&D one has to "worship" a deity in order to not be sent to the wall and "dissipate".

I was wondering what "Worship" means... what the difference to believing in them is, and what happens should you "believe" in all the gods, but not worship one in particular, but rather all of them as a whole, or anyone of them as you please...

Do you still get sent to the wall and if so... why?

Thanks,
Tiamat

The whole wall thing is a FR only thing. It does not effect the rest of D&D.

The only thing it requires of you is to declare a god as your patron deity. Other wise it really has no effect other than that. There is no guidelines(atleast that I could ever find) that states what you have to do to be considered worshiping a god.
Storm_Silverhand
11-15-07, 04:50 PM Heya,

Worship is just praying to a god, though it can include making sacrifices in their name.

Everyone in the Realms, even divine spell casters, pray to many deities during their lives - they might pray to Chauntea for a bountiful harvest, Tymora for luck on their travels, Waukeen for a fair price at the market for their goods, Lathander in thanks for the coming of spring, or to appease a deity, such as Beshaba - that her gaze passes you by, or Umberlee - that she spare the ship you're traveling on her wrath. Sometimes you might also make a sacrifice if it is very important - for instance, you might throw a few coins overboard for Umberlee when going through a particularly rough part of the sea.

Who you're faithful to is another matter. Your patron deity is the deity you are most attuned to, so to speak. In the case of divine casters, they actually get a call to serve that deity. In most cases, your patron is who you pray to most often, the one whose cause is closest to your heart. If you pray to the whole pantheon on a mostly equal basis (which isn't really possible, since there's no way you could do it without spending most of your time praying), your alignment and how you lived your life might determine who is ultimately responsible for your soul - if you were a big risk taker, and Chaotic Good, you will most likely end up in Brightwater (or the House of the Triad :rolleyes: ) with Tymora... If you were cold, cruel, and sadistic, as well as Lawful Evil, Loviatar might be the deity you end up with as you patron.

I might add, ordinary people in the Realms, not just divine spell casters, will get dream visions and signs from a variety of gods in their lives, not just their patrons. They get these in answers to prayers, and also just off the cuff when the god feels they have something to say to the person concerned (for example, Eilistraee sends dream visions and the like to all drow, not just her followers - this is how even evil drow know of her, since Lolth would absolutely not want her priestesses teaching anything about her). This is how the people of the Realms know their gods are real. The gods aren't distant, they are a presence in the every day lives of the people of Abeir-Toril.

These are just my thoughts on the issue, but I'm pretty sure nothing here contradicts canon. :)
TiamatTheDragonGod
11-15-07, 05:03 PM Great thoughts, now what I am saying is, what happens when you worship more than one god equally. Say you need to know more about a certain subject so you pray to Oghma, god of knowledge, then however you need more magical power (I'm making this up on the spot lol) so you pray to Mystra for that, and so on and so forth. I think you know what I'm getting at here.

You would never only have ONE god you worship, but all of them according to your needs.

What does having a "patron" require? Regular worship? Because you do not have to regularly worship your god if you only have one deity.

So, yes, you can worship the whole pantheon, just not all at the same time. What happens when a person decides to do that.

Thanks,
Tiamat
Suin Bahhar
11-15-07, 06:18 PM In their harts people always have a favourite god among the pantheon they worship. It is the stuff your soul is most attracted to and the part of your essence that will remain the most cohesive in the afterlife. According to canon this attraction to your patron god is buried deep into a soul and uncorruptable (at first).

Worship of most dieties are sometimes even the mere thoughts of the masses on the portfolios of gods. Knowledge of the complete pantheon is severaly impaired in backwater areas of the realms, but these could still very well be worshipping a diety by advancing his portfolio by their actions, unknowing about its clergy or name.

A patron god should demand some devout time of his supplicants by thinking about advancing his portfolios or acting upon them. Those actions or thoughts could be ritualized depending on the strictness of the dogma of gods clergies and their localized power.
meto30
11-15-07, 06:26 PM A patron diety must be chosen, and he/she must be properly served, by promiting portfolios, performing religious duties, etc. Those who do not do so are judged 'false' and are doomed to some suffering other than the Wall.

The above is from NWN2. I don't know if the above is canon.
Old Sage
11-15-07, 07:10 PM In our world and in the Realms, worship is the devotion of time, energy and attention to something you see as ontologically greater than yourself. There's no question that worship is only part of what determines a god's power, since the order of most-worshipped gods isn't the same list as most-powerful. Just look at Waukeen, Shar and the other evil deities, Horus-Re, Lolth, and the elemental lords.

Ed doesn't talk much about the inner workings of the gods, about angels-dancing-on-the-head-of-a-pin theology which no mortal knows for sure and DMs don't need to know either. The question of what constitutes worship is also largely moot because people tend to pray in proportion to their concerns and activities. For instance, almost all mages deliberately worship Mystra, and probably more than half give her primary devotion, including those of evil alignments, such as Manshoon.
Stigger
11-15-07, 07:15 PM And most of the ones who don't head over to Azuth... with a small percentage going to the "other" category...

Though I wouldn't mind some more esoteric lore on the various faiths and the questions/debates/theories they might have. I am not however even remotely of the belief that its forthcoming...
kintire
11-16-07, 06:18 AM So, yes, you can worship the whole pantheon, just not all at the same time. What happens when a person decides to do that.

When you die, you proceed to the Fugue Plane, where Kelemvor decides your fate. If you are Faithful to several deities, at that point you pick one (or they pick you).
TiamatTheDragonGod
11-18-07, 12:39 AM When you die, you proceed to the Fugue Plane, where Kelemvor decides your fate. If you are Faithful to several deities, at that point you pick one (or they pick you).

This seems to make the most sense to me, but D&D has often proven to have rules that do not make sense. So now my question is, does the above apply and is it true according to the rules? Basically enabling one character to worship multiple deities and not be sent to the wall upon death.
GreenKnight
11-18-07, 12:44 AM So now my question is, does the above apply and is it true according to the rules? Basically enabling one character to worship multiple deities and not be sent to the wall upon death.

The Wall of the Faithless is for the Faithless. Clearly such a character isn't Faithless, so they don't belong in the wall.
TiamatTheDragonGod
11-19-07, 12:38 AM That's great from a logical point of view, like I said, but do the Rules back it up is what I'm asking?

:)
Todesherr
11-19-07, 12:48 AM That's great from a logical point of view, like I said, but do the Rules back it up is what I'm asking?

:)

Tiamat be in da house!
TiamatTheDragonGod
11-21-07, 01:20 PM Tiamat be in da house!

You betta believe it! Tiamat's gonna weak some havock wit da *****es in herre ma brother!

That's great from a logical point of view, like I said, but do the Rules back it up is what I'm asking?

umm.... anyone? :D
Red_Wizard
11-21-07, 01:58 PM I think you are overlooking the option of being one of the false.

Being a False means you die believing, but never picking one you favour over the rest. Or, you could die worshiping on deity, but not believing in them, or paying them more than lip service.

False AND Faithless go to Hades and suffer under Kelemvor for life's little discretions.

-RW
kintire
11-22-07, 07:03 AM This seems to make the most sense to me, but D&D has often proven to have rules that do not make sense. So now my question is, does the above apply and is it true according to the rules?

Its not really a question of rules. DnD rules have little to say about the afterlife: that tends to come in the setting fluff. Even then, the descriptions of what happens in the afterlife tend to be very brief, because it isn't very important for most games. The description of the afterlife in the various faerun setting books gave me that impression. What more can there be?
Faraer
11-23-07, 12:42 PM what happens when you worship more than one god equally.Power of Faerūn p. 50 (my emphasis): "Most folk in Faerūn embrace (or drift into) primary worship of one deity above -- even if only slightly above -- all others." You might not even be aware that you revere your favourite deity more than your second-favourite.What does having a "patron" require?It means you see the god as your patron and worship it more than any other. Nothing more than that, and not everyone has one.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TiamatTheDragonGod 11-15-07, 04:11 PM	So according to D&D one has to "worship" a deity in order to not be sent to the wall and "dissipate". I was wondering what "Worship" means... what the difference to believing in them is, and what happens should you "believe" in all the gods, but not worship one in particular, but rather all of them as a whole, or anyone of them as you please... Do you still get sent to the wall and if so... why? Thanks, Tiamat
johnkretzer 11-15-07, 04:28 PM	So according to D&D one has to "worship" a deity in order to not be sent to the wall and "dissipate". I was wondering what "Worship" means... what the difference to believing in them is, and what happens should you "believe" in all the gods, but not worship one in particular, but rather all of them as a whole, or anyone of them as you please... Do you still get sent to the wall and if so... why? Thanks, Tiamat The whole wall thing is a FR only thing. It does not effect the rest of D&D. The only thing it requires of you is to declare a god as your patron deity. Other wise it really has no effect other than that. There is no guidelines(atleast that I could ever find) that states what you have to do to be considered worshiping a god.
Storm_Silverhand 11-15-07, 04:50 PM	Heya, Worship is just praying to a god, though it can include making sacrifices in their name. Everyone in the Realms, even divine spell casters, pray to many deities during their lives - they might pray to Chauntea for a bountiful harvest, Tymora for luck on their travels, Waukeen for a fair price at the market for their goods, Lathander in thanks for the coming of spring, or to appease a deity, such as Beshaba - that her gaze passes you by, or Umberlee - that she spare the ship you're traveling on her wrath. Sometimes you might also make a sacrifice if it is very important - for instance, you might throw a few coins overboard for Umberlee when going through a particularly rough part of the sea. Who you're faithful to is another matter. Your patron deity is the deity you are most attuned to, so to speak. In the case of divine casters, they actually get a call to serve that deity. In most cases, your patron is who you pray to most often, the one whose cause is closest to your heart. If you pray to the whole pantheon on a mostly equal basis (which isn't really possible, since there's no way you could do it without spending most of your time praying), your alignment and how you lived your life might determine who is ultimately responsible for your soul - if you were a big risk taker, and Chaotic Good, you will most likely end up in Brightwater (or the House of the Triad :rolleyes: ) with Tymora... If you were cold, cruel, and sadistic, as well as Lawful Evil, Loviatar might be the deity you end up with as you patron. I might add, ordinary people in the Realms, not just divine spell casters, will get dream visions and signs from a variety of gods in their lives, not just their patrons. They get these in answers to prayers, and also just off the cuff when the god feels they have something to say to the person concerned (for example, Eilistraee sends dream visions and the like to all drow, not just her followers - this is how even evil drow know of her, since Lolth would absolutely not want her priestesses teaching anything about her). This is how the people of the Realms know their gods are real. The gods aren't distant, they are a presence in the every day lives of the people of Abeir-Toril. These are just my thoughts on the issue, but I'm pretty sure nothing here contradicts canon. :)
TiamatTheDragonGod 11-15-07, 05:03 PM	Great thoughts, now what I am saying is, what happens when you worship more than one god equally. Say you need to know more about a certain subject so you pray to Oghma, god of knowledge, then however you need more magical power (I'm making this up on the spot lol) so you pray to Mystra for that, and so on and so forth. I think you know what I'm getting at here. You would never only have ONE god you worship, but all of them according to your needs. What does having a "patron" require? Regular worship? Because you do not have to regularly worship your god if you only have one deity. So, yes, you can worship the whole pantheon, just not all at the same time. What happens when a person decides to do that. Thanks, Tiamat
Suin Bahhar 11-15-07, 06:18 PM	In their harts people always have a favourite god among the pantheon they worship. It is the stuff your soul is most attracted to and the part of your essence that will remain the most cohesive in the afterlife. According to canon this attraction to your patron god is buried deep into a soul and uncorruptable (at first). Worship of most dieties are sometimes even the mere thoughts of the masses on the portfolios of gods. Knowledge of the complete pantheon is severaly impaired in backwater areas of the realms, but these could still very well be worshipping a diety by advancing his portfolio by their actions, unknowing about its clergy or name. A patron god should demand some devout time of his supplicants by thinking about advancing his portfolios or acting upon them. Those actions or thoughts could be ritualized depending on the strictness of the dogma of gods clergies and their localized power.
meto30 11-15-07, 06:26 PM	A patron diety must be chosen, and he/she must be properly served, by promiting portfolios, performing religious duties, etc. Those who do not do so are judged 'false' and are doomed to some suffering other than the Wall. The above is from NWN2. I don't know if the above is canon.
Old Sage 11-15-07, 07:10 PM	In our world and in the Realms, worship is the devotion of time, energy and attention to something you see as ontologically greater than yourself. There's no question that worship is only part of what determines a god's power, since the order of most-worshipped gods isn't the same list as most-powerful. Just look at Waukeen, Shar and the other evil deities, Horus-Re, Lolth, and the elemental lords. Ed doesn't talk much about the inner workings of the gods, about angels-dancing-on-the-head-of-a-pin theology which no mortal knows for sure and DMs don't need to know either. The question of what constitutes worship is also largely moot because people tend to pray in proportion to their concerns and activities. For instance, almost all mages deliberately worship Mystra, and probably more than half give her primary devotion, including those of evil alignments, such as Manshoon.
Stigger 11-15-07, 07:15 PM	And most of the ones who don't head over to Azuth... with a small percentage going to the "other" category... Though I wouldn't mind some more esoteric lore on the various faiths and the questions/debates/theories they might have. I am not however even remotely of the belief that its forthcoming...
kintire 11-16-07, 06:18 AM	So, yes, you can worship the whole pantheon, just not all at the same time. What happens when a person decides to do that. When you die, you proceed to the Fugue Plane, where Kelemvor decides your fate. If you are Faithful to several deities, at that point you pick one (or they pick you).
TiamatTheDragonGod 11-18-07, 12:39 AM	When you die, you proceed to the Fugue Plane, where Kelemvor decides your fate. If you are Faithful to several deities, at that point you pick one (or they pick you). This seems to make the most sense to me, but D&D has often proven to have rules that do not make sense. So now my question is, does the above apply and is it true according to the rules? Basically enabling one character to worship multiple deities and not be sent to the wall upon death.
GreenKnight 11-18-07, 12:44 AM	So now my question is, does the above apply and is it true according to the rules? Basically enabling one character to worship multiple deities and not be sent to the wall upon death. The Wall of the Faithless is for the Faithless. Clearly such a character isn't Faithless, so they don't belong in the wall.
TiamatTheDragonGod 11-19-07, 12:38 AM	That's great from a logical point of view, like I said, but do the Rules back it up is what I'm asking? :)
Todesherr 11-19-07, 12:48 AM	That's great from a logical point of view, like I said, but do the Rules back it up is what I'm asking? :) Tiamat be in da house!
TiamatTheDragonGod 11-21-07, 01:20 PM	Tiamat be in da house! You betta believe it! Tiamat's gonna weak some havock wit da *****es in herre ma brother! That's great from a logical point of view, like I said, but do the Rules back it up is what I'm asking? umm.... anyone? :D
Red_Wizard 11-21-07, 01:58 PM	I think you are overlooking the option of being one of the false. Being a False means you die believing, but never picking one you favour over the rest. Or, you could die worshiping on deity, but not believing in them, or paying them more than lip service. False AND Faithless go to Hades and suffer under Kelemvor for life's little discretions. -RW
kintire 11-22-07, 07:03 AM	This seems to make the most sense to me, but D&D has often proven to have rules that do not make sense. So now my question is, does the above apply and is it true according to the rules? Its not really a question of rules. DnD rules have little to say about the afterlife: that tends to come in the setting fluff. Even then, the descriptions of what happens in the afterlife tend to be very brief, because it isn't very important for most games. The description of the afterlife in the various faerun setting books gave me that impression. What more can there be?
Faraer 11-23-07, 12:42 PM	what happens when you worship more than one god equally.Power of Faerūn p. 50 (my emphasis): "Most folk in Faerūn embrace (or drift into) primary worship of one deity above -- even if only slightly above -- all others." You might not even be aware that you revere your favourite deity more than your second-favourite.What does having a "patron" require?It means you see the god as your patron and worship it more than any other. Nothing more than that, and not everyone has one.