Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ywhtptgtfo 08-30-07, 10:24 PM	<spoiler space added so that thread preview won't show the spoiler :) > Kiaransalee's corpse is now floating in the astral.
SmartPaladin 08-30-07, 10:42 PM	Huh... Wonder if Hoar's answering the prayers of her faithful...?
Arbourean 08-30-07, 10:43 PM	Who?:D
Zandilar 08-31-07, 12:13 AM	Heya, If you have not read Storm of the Dead and plan to do so, please do not read this post. The best way to do spoilers is like this... What you want to hide. Which looks like this: What you want to hide. Or... For something longer than one line you can use spoiler block tags. Which looks like this: For something longer than one line you can use spoiler block tags.
Zanan 08-31-07, 08:57 AM	Haven't read anything above, but if you don't want to spoiler something and mark it thus in a header, PLEASE don't write the spoiler in front of it. Consider me spoilt then and my nigh-eternal wrath following you any footstep. PS: "Servant of the Fallen" ... suddenly sounds good. But I'll have to wait till my copy of the book arrives.
Lord Karsus 08-31-07, 11:41 AM	-Stupid weeding out of the Drow Pantheon...:nonono: -Let's hope that Ghaunadaur survives...
SmartPaladin 09-01-07, 03:07 AM	-Stupid weeding out of the Drow Pantheon...:nonono: -Let's hope that Ghaunadaur survives... I don't see why not... Gharunadaur is just cool like that. :P
captaincarot 09-01-07, 03:36 AM	-Stupid weeding out of the Drow Pantheon...:nonono: -Let's hope that Ghaunadaur survives... if you don't weed your garden, your flowers will never flourish. lets face it all those drow gods weren't necessary, we only need lolth and eillistraee. and if ghaunadaur dies he will take his slugs with him and leave my hostas alone. :pbbbtt:
Sosthenes 09-01-07, 08:20 AM	lets face it all those drow gods weren't necessary, we only need lolth and eillistraee. Do we? Back in the days, a Lloth monotheism was alright. One reject from the Seldarine, not a whole sub-pantheon. A redeeming goddess especially for Drow seems about as useless as a Seldarine god just for the hunt of drow... I predict one of the following scenarios, after the current upheaval: * Everything reverts to the status quo before the fight. Worked for the War of the Spider Queen series. * Just Lloth survives. The evil-ness and activity of Drows increases. Now with several "evil races" on the sava board of the Realms, some wars are likely to happen. Shades vs. Drow could be rather interesting... * Lloth finally dies, doesn't really matter who's left from the rest. This would be the opposite of the item above and could result in more free-willed Drow, some choosing to fight more, some forging alliances with the surface (or even returning in greater numbers). Their heyday of the evil race is over. It's rather likely that the Time of Troubles V2.0 (the 3E->4E transition) will have some effect there. A "Spellplague" sounds like it would hit the Drow hard.
DarkSongKnight 09-01-07, 12:42 PM	The entire Lady Penitent series has got me nervous. First Selvetarm, then Vhaeraun, now Kiaransalee... Where does it stop? I was fine with Selvetarm being slain, but when Vhaeraun was chopped up by his sister, I started to worry. And there goes Kiaransalee... I'm starting to detest RSE. Plus, the drow pantheon is/was so much more interesting with variety. Not every drow must be an evil follower of the Spider Queen... If that were the case, they'd be exactly like GH drow. The multiple deities in the drow pantheon is what made FR drow special. I am truly concerned for Eilistraee. She is one of my favorite goddesses, and I still play a drow bard/cleric of hers. She was the goddess that introduced me to the Forgotten Realms! When I think about the possibility of her death, I get a sick feeling in my stomach. I fear for the future, and can only hope she survives. Hmm. I'm changing my active character to my follower of Eilistraee. He may not have a goddess much longer... I hope he won't have to write a lamentation... *sigh*
ywhtptgtfo 09-01-07, 01:59 PM	I am truly concerned for Eilistraee. She is one of my favorite goddesses, and I still play a drow bard/cleric of hers. She was the goddess that introduced me to the Forgotten Realms! When I think about the possibility of her death, I get a sick feeling in my stomach. I fear for the future, and can only hope she survives. If you haven't noticed: 1) Lisa Smedman is a big Eilistraee fan 2) Eilistraee has continuously been winning throughout the series 3) The series is likely to end up with Eilistraee gaining a lot of power and Lolth losing at least some of her prestige
DarkSongKnight 09-01-07, 02:18 PM	If you haven't noticed: 1) Lisa Smedman is a big Eilistraee fan 2) Eilistraee has continuously been winning throughout the series 3) The series is likely to end up with Eilistraee gaining a lot of power and Lolth losing at least some of her prestige I hope this is how it works out. But from what I have heard, there is a major spoiler in The Orc King.
Meldread 09-01-07, 03:30 PM	Frankly, I hope Eilistraee doesn't cause too much more upset. I predict that her alignment will now begin to shift toward neutrality. I also think Vhaeraun may return as a weakened demipower one way or another... leaving us with the big three: Lolth, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. Of course, the big three simply might be Ghaunadaur instead of Vhaeraun but I hope not. Ghaunadaur has some appeal but over all isn't really that interesting. Has anyone considered the fact that Lolth might end up getting killed by Eilistraee? She's making a lot of big gains so I think we should at least consider the fact, although I find it hard to imagine the Drow without Lolth, and I doubt that 95% of the Drow will willingly embrace Eilistraee. Who would they turn too? My money is on Shar. She seems the most likely bet outside of the Drow Pantheon, and I've always been disappointed that she hasn't really made any huge gains in the Underdark since the Time of Troubles and acquiring the Underdark Portfolio. The scenario I'd like to see: Shar finds a way to help Vhaeraun back from the dead. He returns as a weakened demipower but is now "bound" into the service of Shar - for his own protection, of course. Shar then proceeds to use Vhaeraun to battle Eilistraee and Lolth, in turn helping him regain some of his lost power, while she spreads the shadow weave among the Drow. The Underdark is one of the few places that she is going to find individuals that would happily embrace the Shadow Weave. It's also one of the few places she can extend her power outside of the reach of Mystra and Selune's faithful. Vhaeraun is listed as one of her allies - so it is possible, I guess.
Todesherr 09-01-07, 08:43 PM	Who killed the Lady of Undeath and Vengeance? The Moon Dancing Harlet or the Arachnid Queen? Can someone please tell me some more details of what happened!? Please!!!:weep:
Lord Karsus 09-01-07, 09:40 PM	If you haven't noticed: 1) Lisa Smedman is a big Eilistraee fan 2) Eilistraee has continuously been winning throughout the series 3) The series is likely to end up with Eilistraee gaining a lot of power and Lolth losing at least some of her prestige -Having an Eilistraee that, in the end, is nothing like the Eilistraee that we started out with really isn't something I am looking forward to. Who killed the Lady of Undeath and Vengeance? The Moon Dancing Harlet or the Arachnid Queen? Can someone please tell me some more details of what happened!? Please!!!:weep: -I believe it was Eilistraee. Note, though, that the sava game was Lolth versus Eilistraee versus Kiaransalee.
ywhtptgtfo 09-01-07, 10:50 PM	-Having an Eilistraee that, in the end, is nothing like the Eilistraee that we started out with really isn't something I am looking forward to. -I believe it was Eilistraee. Note, though, that the sava game was Lolth versus Eilistraee versus Kiaransalee. It's kind of funny too - Lolth saw the trap laid by Eilistraee and was content to let Kiaransalee to walk right into it. Looks like a temporary mother-daughter alliance ("GET THE **** OUT OF OUR GAME!").
Todesherr 09-02-07, 04:19 AM	Kind of obvious what is going on. The pantheon is being trimmed down. 2 gods for the drow are enough. WotC will never get rid of Lolth; she has been there forever, her daughter on the other hand may be heading out or maybe turning evil. Vhaerun and Kiransalee are out. They were never major players so not a big deal (though I did like the idea of a male drow god). What I would love, is to see that distant rank 18 Greater deity Corellon start getting involved. Lay down the law (err chaos) and the long sword and tell these wenches what the deal is. The fact that he has tolerated Lolth for millenia is beyond me...or maybe he just doesn't care anymore...
ywhtptgtfo 09-02-07, 04:42 AM	Kind of obvious what is going on. The pantheon is being trimmed down. 2 gods for the drow are enough. WotC will never get rid of Lolth; she has been there forever, her daughter on the other hand may be heading out or maybe turning evil. Vhaerun and Kiransalee are out. They were never major players so not a big deal (though I did like the idea of a male drow god). Hmm... Unless there's a major twist in the end, I don't think a lot of people will be happy about how things turn out. It's not merely that their favourite god/goddess is dead or changed, but that the flow of events that we witness so far is kind of lame. And by the way, Vhaeraun's just as big of a player as Eilistraee. What I would love, is to see that distant rank 18 Greater deity Corellon start getting involved. Lay down the law (err chaos) and the long sword and tell these wenches what the deal is. The fact that he has tolerated Lolth for millenia is beyond me...or maybe he just doesn't care anymore... Corellon's DR is 19 actually. There are a number of possible reasons that he didn't kill Araushnee: 1) She was his beloved wife and mother of Eilistraee 2) She was stripped of her divine power at that time and her return to a major divinity status was probably a very unlikely possibility at that time 3) By the time the dark elves were corrupted, she was outside of his pantheon and sphere of influence. The only thing he could've done was to direct his followers against her's, but we already know that the elves simply don't have the resource to do so after the Crown Wars.
Miryana 09-02-07, 04:45 AM	Has anyone considered the fact that Lolth might end up getting killed by Eilistraee? She's making a lot of big gains so I think we should at least consider the fact, although I find it hard to imagine the Drow without Lolth, and I doubt that 95% of the Drow will willingly embrace Eilistraee. I remember hearing that the recent core book, Drow of the Underdark, claimed that Lolth was the only true goddess and the serious worship of any others was so minor as to hardly exist (someone who's read the book, please confirm/deny). That's why I doubt she'll die and am afraid that Eilistraee might be killed. There are so many people who like playing drow on the surface that it would seem sensible to leave them at least one deity to worship, but reports of the emphasis on Lolth in DOTU make me wonder whether they want to make FR drow compatible with core for 4E. I think the series will end with either Lolth as the only deity or Lolth as the Underdark and Eilistraee as the surface drow deity. If they do kill Lolth, even if it's only in FR, I'll be very surprised. Shar as a deity with major drow worship could be interesting, though.
Todesherr 09-02-07, 04:57 AM	Hmm... Unless there's a major twist in the end, I don't think a lot of people will be happy about how things turn out. It's not merely that their favourite god/goddess is dead or changed, but that the flow of events that we witness so far is kind of lame. And by the way, Vhaeraun's just as big of a player as Eilistraee. Corellon's DR is 19 actually. There are a number of possible reasons that he didn't kill Araushnee: 1) She was his beloved wife and mother of Eilistraee 2) She was stripped of her divine power at that time and her return to a major divinity status was probably a very unlikely possibility at that time 3) By the time the dark elves were corrupted, she was outside of his pantheon and sphere of influence. The only thing he could've done was to direct his followers against her's, but we already know that the elves simply don't have the resource to do so after the Crown Wars. He is 19, huh? I remember reading that too; but I thought all the demihuman deities were rank 18; so does that mean the rest are 18 and Corellon is 19? Wow...he is truly and ueberdeity, I mean only Io or Anam of the giants is likely more powerful...and Moradin is a wimp...sigh...
buzzard 09-02-07, 01:32 PM	He is 19, huh? I remember reading that too; but I thought all the demihuman deities were rank 18; so does that mean the rest are 18 and Corellon is 19? Wow...he is truly and ueberdeity, I mean only Io or Anam of the giants is likely more powerful...and Moradin is a wimp...sigh... He is DvR 19 in Deities and Demigods (D&D Core), in Forgotten Realms we actually don't know since DvRs are provided only for those deities in the Major Deities section.
ywhtptgtfo 09-02-07, 02:26 PM	He is 19, huh? I remember reading that too; but I thought all the demihuman deities were rank 18; so does that mean the rest are 18 and Corellon is 19? Wow...he is truly and ueberdeity, I mean only Io or Anam of the giants is likely more powerful...and Moradin is a wimp...sigh... Moradin's also DvR 19.
MarkHall 09-02-07, 03:04 PM	Of course, that's their DvR NOW... what was it millenia ago?
Arbourean 09-02-07, 03:27 PM	Kind of obvious what is going on. The pantheon is being trimmed down. 2 gods for the drow are enough. WotC will never get rid of Lolth; she has been there forever, her daughter on the other hand may be heading out or maybe turning evil. Vhaerun and Kiransalee are out. They were never major players so not a big deal (though I did like the idea of a male drow god). What I would love, is to see that distant rank 18 Greater deity Corellon start getting involved. Lay down the law (err chaos) and the long sword and tell these wenches what the deal is. The fact that he has tolerated Lolth for millenia is beyond me...or maybe he just doesn't care anymore... I think he is involved. Doesn't he have Elven High Magic as his portfolio? I can't believe he wasn't complicit in those two particular castings, each of which resulted in the destruction of one of his enemies.
GothicDan 09-02-07, 04:49 PM	He is the god of Elven High Magic. But who knows that that even means in regards to the current ruleset and novel events?
Todesherr 09-02-07, 07:23 PM	Moradin's also DvR 19. But Yondalla and Garl are 18 right?
SmartPaladin 09-03-07, 01:14 AM	-Having an Eilistraee that, in the end, is nothing like the Eilistraee that we started out with really isn't something I am looking forward to. I, myself, have a nasty feel that Eilistraee will win, but because of all of the evil she'll have taken in from the other Drow deities, she'd become the next/new Lolth. And then we'll find out that that was Lolth's plan from the beginning.
DarkSongKnight 09-03-07, 04:07 AM	That's why I doubt she'll die and am afraid that Eilistraee might be killed. There are so many people who like playing drow on the surface that it would seem sensible to leave them at least one deity to worship, but reports of the emphasis on Lolth in DOTU make me wonder whether they want to make FR drow compatible with core for 4E. One should also take into consideration that many consider "good" drow to be an embarrassment, and that the many Drizzt clones have given surface drow a bad wrap. What easier way to get rid of those pesky surface drow, than to kill their goddess? Hmm? With the loss of Eilistraee, I certainly wouldn't play a drow. I'm hoping I'm wrong here. Very wrong. I guess we'll see in the near future.
Zandilar 09-03-07, 07:22 AM	Heya, One should also take into consideration that many consider "good" drow to be an embarrassment, and that the many Drizzt clones have given surface drow a bad wrap. What easier way to get rid of those pesky surface drow, than to kill their goddess? Hmm? With the loss of Eilistraee, I certainly wouldn't play a drow. I'm hoping I'm wrong here. Very wrong. I guess we'll see in the near future. Drizzt clones? Oy vey. Can someone please point me at the Drizzt clones? I mean, they can't be talking about people playing good Drow in their home campaigns, can they? They have to be common in novels or something, right? I would certainly hope these people were not trying to tell others how to play their games, after all! :eek: (Yes, I'm being sarcastic.) A more serious response - I don't understand how what people do in their home campaigns can be an embarrassment to the game as a whole. That attitude doesn't make any sense to me. I think the death of Eilistraee (either literally or figuratively - by which I mean her literal death, or her death through change to Neutral or Evil alignment) would make me seriously reconsider my commitment not just to the Forgotten Realms, but Dungeons and Dragons as well. The end of 3rd Edition is the perfect opportunity... There's plenty of other game systems out there, and even if I don't totally jump ship - at least I'll have a very wide range of 3rd Ed books I can still use.
Todesherr 09-03-07, 09:36 AM	One should also take into consideration that many consider "good" drow to be an embarrassment, and that the many Drizzt clones have given surface drow a bad wrap. What easier way to get rid of those pesky surface drow, than to kill their goddess? Hmm? With the loss of Eilistraee, I certainly wouldn't play a drow. I'm hoping I'm wrong here. Very wrong. I guess we'll see in the near future. You could always worship Mieliekki...;)
Todesherr 09-03-07, 09:37 AM	Heya, Drizzt clones? Oy vey. Can someone please point me at the Drizzt clones? I mean, they can't be talking about people playing good Drow in their home campaigns, can they? They have to be common in novels or something, right? I would certainly hope these people were not trying to tell others how to play their games, after all! :eek: (Yes, I'm being sarcastic.) A more serious response - I don't understand how what people do in their home campaigns can be an embarrassment to the game as a whole. That attitude doesn't make any sense to me. I think the death of Eilistraee (either literally or figuratively - by which I mean her literal death, or her death through change to Neutral or Evil alignment) would make me seriously reconsider my commitment not just to the Forgotten Realms, but Dungeons and Dragons as well. The end of 3rd Edition is the perfect opportunity... There's plenty of other game systems out there, and even if I don't totally jump ship - at least I'll have a very wide range of 3rd Ed books I can still use. Why on earth would you abandon D&D because the Dance Queen gets killed?:confused: :eek:
Valten 09-03-07, 11:17 AM	Make like a real realmsian individual and convert to a new deity while mourning your old one :D. Maybe Eilastraee will get enough converts and just leave the drow pantheon for the Seldarine, leaving Lloth as the only real drow pantheon deity (Ghaunadaur can go on a holiday).
Zanan 09-03-07, 12:29 PM	Got my copy today, had a "short" look at it and was pretty baffled with the way Kiaransalee was virtually blasted out of existence. No way back for her in the Realms, nor her followers, unless another Larynda Telenna (where was she?) happens by from the Core Pantheon worlds (how unlikely is that). Of course, one wonders how the mind erasion took place in the lands above, where no faerzress is about to convey the spell? As for the drow ... 365 days till we know what happens, which is, IMHO, scandalous a treatment of the readership, players, and DMs alike. Same with Haunted Lands ... and it does not exactly matter that all transpires in "only 2 to 4 years time, DR time that is. You'd hope that the drow will not end up as some Eberron look-alikes. Well, as the Servant of the Fallen feat goes out of the window (Vhaeraunites should be able to use it though) for Kiaransalee, there is always the option to play in the past. Then again, Kia's past within Faerun also stretches for less than a century, if at all.
GothicDan 09-03-07, 12:36 PM	It's good to see Zanan's favorites miffed by novels. ;) Feel my pain.
Sosthenes 09-03-07, 01:17 PM	Got my copy today, had a "short" look at it and was pretty baffled with the way Kiaransalee was virtually blasted out of existence. No way back for her in the Realms, nor her followers, unless another Larynda Telenna (where was she?) happens by from the Core Pantheon worlds (how unlikely is that). Hmm, while I agree that it's unlikely that she'll be back, I think this will mostly because of pantheon redesign issues. Orcus had the same done to him and managed to come back. Maybe she'll return as a "mere" archmage...
Alediran 09-03-07, 02:11 PM	And so goes diversity to the dump in favor of a bidimensional-reduced setting stripped of it's deepnes to catter the unwashed masses. What happened to the true realms' players opinnions, after years of battling the hordes of stupidity (in the shape of trolls) the designers are going to serve the setting we love in a silver plate for those smelly monstrous humanoids to devour while laughing at us?
Zanan 09-03-07, 02:48 PM	It's good to see Zanan's favorites miffed by novels. ;) Feel my pain. When did you have pain? You NEVER have felt real pain, rest assured! :evillaugh Obviously, Zanan's deity will be gone (apparently) and I guess she won't be very happy. Not that she won't get over it, rest assured. As I know her quite good, I can assure you that she won't defect to either of the remaining goddesses, if there are two to remain. Her alter ego stands somewhat above that. It just doesn't like how it is all handled, from top to bottom. I wonder whether we will see a purge of the evil human deities too, just for balance sake. BTW, readers of the the Last Mythal series may get the same feeling as myself with regards to one of the main heroes in LP. T'seems that the wizards are in the ascendency again, doing great and realms-shaking stuff. Oh how boring. (And on a sidenote, they are all males again :rolleyes: ... do we see a next generation of Elminsters and Khelbens and Halasters, pointy eared this time around?)
ElMorte 09-03-07, 04:07 PM	Orcus had the same done to him and managed to come back. Thought excactly the same. And that without any Divine Rank.... Even Lloth came back more than once.
MarkHall 09-03-07, 04:59 PM	And so goes diversity to the dump in favor of a bidimensional-reduced setting stripped of it's deepnes to catter the unwashed masses. Now you know how I feel about the treatment of gnomes in the PH and especially Races of Stone.
GothicDan 09-03-07, 05:09 PM	When did you have pain? You NEVER have felt real pain, rest assured! Obviously, Zanan's deity will be gone (apparently) and I guess she won't be very happy. Not that she won't get over it, rest assured. As I know her quite good, I can assure you that she won't defect to either of the remaining goddesses, if there are two to remain. Her alter ego stands somewhat above that. It just doesn't like how it is all handled, from top to bottom. I wonder whether we will see a purge of the evil human deities too, just for balance sake. I doubt that. The ranks of the human evil Faerunian gods are already a bit low as it is compared to good ones. BTW, readers of the the Last Mythal series may get the same feeling as myself with regards to one of the main heroes in LP. T'seems that the wizards are in the ascendency again, doing great and realms-shaking stuff. Oh how boring. (And on a sidenote, they are all males again ... do we see a next generation of Elminsters and Khelbens and Halasters, pointy eared this time around?) Oh, don't start throwing yourself into the "There are too many high level male NPCs!" bunch, what with the likes of the Seven Sisters about. :)
Lord Karsus 09-03-07, 06:41 PM	I think he is involved. Doesn't he have Elven High Magic as his portfolio? I can't believe he wasn't complicit in those two particular castings, each of which resulted in the destruction of one of his enemies. -That wasn't Elven High Magic that was cast in Sacrifice of the Widow. You can say I am wrong, Lisa Smedman can say that I am wrong, Rich Baker can I am wrong...but, I am correct. Elven High Magic rituals, first of all, were not written "on scrolls". They are stored in Selu'Kiira. Secondly, we know that Drow do not exibit the ability to cast Elven High Magic anymore, due to their untrusting and suspicious natures. I fail to see how spending a little time along with a few strangers is enough to allow you to trust them so much such that Elven High Magic is possible. Epic Magic? Sure, why not? Elven High Magic? No, absolutely not. -Also, I read somewhere or other in Book II that Elven High Magic rituals are stored in Kiira. Wrong again- it's Selu'Kiira. I, myself, have a nasty feel that Eilistraee will win, but because of all of the evil she'll have taken in from the other Drow deities, she'd become the next/new Lolth. And then we'll find out that that was Lolth's plan from the beginning. -And interesting theory. I hope that it's not true. The same did happen to Selvetarm, however. Eilistraee does seem to be neutral, absorbing Vhaeraun and all, and absorbing any more evil might shift her road from neutral to evil.
Zandilar 09-03-07, 07:39 PM	Heya, Why on earth would you abandon D&D because the Dance Queen gets killed?:confused: :eek: Three reasons... One, I really like Eilistraee the way she is, thank you very much. Two, this is one more thing in a long line of things - the way I see the Realms shaping up. For example, this Spellplague may result in many of my favorite characters disappearing (we don't know what will happen yet, I am waiting and seeing - though obviously my patience has an end point). Another example was the shoehorning of the Shadow Weave (something never intended for the Forgotten Realms) into the Realms. Not to mention that the edition change throws the Realms 10 years forward (some rumors say 100 years), and in all likelihood will leave way too many loose ends untied - like, as a single example of many, whatever happened to Myrmeen Lhal's adopted daughter Krystin (from The Night Parade)? Three, if I'm going to get out, now is the time. Get the last 3rd Ed books, and then just... play that. Or pick up any number of other systems on the market and play those (GURPS springs to mind). What this all comes down to is this... If I'm unhappy, the only way I can show it is by keeping my wallet closed. I just wish everyone who was unhappy would take this route... But it never works. People who feel like me are probably in the minority anyway. :nonono: @GothicDan - You mean the Six Sisters? Sylune is dead (err even more dead than she was), and I have a feeling that more will fall in the Spellplague.
SmartPaladin 09-03-07, 08:13 PM	You could always worship Mieliekki...;) Or Mystra, Mystra is good. :P
Lord Karsus 09-03-07, 11:59 PM	Not to mention that the edition change throws the Realms 10 years forward (some rumors say 100 years), and in all likelihood will leave way too many loose ends untied - like, as a single example of many, whatever happened to Myrmeen Lhal's adopted daughter Krystin (from The Night Parade)? -Didn't Myrmeen bring her back to her actual parents? I seem to remember that, though I don't remember if Krystin stayed there, since it seemed that she did not enjoy the 'courtly' life. I can't find my book, though, so I can't verify that. If someone else can, that'd be awesome...
Zanan 09-04-07, 04:04 AM	I doubt that. The ranks of the human evil Faerunian gods are already a bit low as it is compared to good ones. That was no reason to stop obliterating the drow pantheon either. Oh, don't start throwing yourself into the "There are too many high level male NPCs!" bunch, what with the likes of the Seven Sisters about. :) Take out any FR book you like and you will find male dominance from top to bottom. Regarding the topic, almost finished with LP II and as far as I see it, there is nothing like redemption given or taken for the Kiaransaleen priestesses. The novel, just like before with the Vhaeraunians (who in this book get about half a sentence), makes absolutely no remark on lay worshippers, like the hexblades or divine champions. Not that any drow will ever remember Kiaransalee, Eilistraeens included. Also, one wonders where the Banshee Knights were, Larynda Telenna, or that divine champion spoken about in CotSQ? After a quick look at the timeline, it is like some other novels (Haunted Lands series, again) nicely geared to 1380 DR and the ascendency of 4E. People should be prepared for fairly changed Realms, given that half of the evil-doers mentioned in the 3E FRCS have already been send into their respective afterlifes.
Zandilar 09-04-07, 08:39 AM	Heya, The novel is very old, but I should warn people that there are visible spoilers for The Night Parade by Scott Ciencin below... Avert yer eyes if ye don't want t'be spoiled! -Didn't Myrmeen bring her back to her actual parents? I seem to remember that, though I don't remember if Krystin stayed there, since it seemed that she did not enjoy the 'courtly' life. I can't find my book, though, so I can't verify that. If someone else can, that'd be awesome... No. Myrmeen found out that Krystin wasn't actually her daughter... But in the process of learning that, she also learned where her real daughter was. Her real daughter had been raised by a pair of kindly nobles, and was quite happy and content where she was... So Myrmeen left her behind without ever telling her that she was her mother. Krystin asks Myrmeen if her daughter had been everything she'd dreamed, to which Myrmeen responded "No. But you are." And the novel closes with the schmaltzy line "There was a dawn somewhere in this bleak, terrible world, and Myrmeen knew she would no longer have to search for it alone." From that, I presumed she took Krystin back with her to Arabel. (What is it with strong women like Myrmeen that moves people (males mostly, but females can be just as guilty of this) to define her by the men in her life or by motherhood? As if somehow it makes her more female? In any case, I didn't really mind that storyline, but the Elminster's Daughter one where Myrmeen basically throws herself all over Vangerdahast, and gets pregnant and vows to raise his heir really drives me potty.)
Zanan 09-04-07, 11:22 AM	Just read Night Parade while waiting for LP II. Heck, I never knew why I never touched the book before - leaving it in the shelf for about 8 years or so. Now I know, what a shocker of a novel. :weep: Anyway, when the NP stuff happened, she was given as a 34-year-old. By the time of Elminster's Daughter, she must have been well in her 40s, something the authors rarely pay significance to, e.g. Cattie-brie. But then again, adventurers and high-up NPCs are always somewhat different and special ...
GothicDan 09-04-07, 11:49 AM	@GothicDan - You mean the Six Sisters? Sylune is dead (err even more dead than she was), and I have a feeling that more will fall in the Spellplague. Oh, right. The uber adventures. I forgot about that. I'm going to chem lab now, where I'll cry a little.
Lord Karsus 09-04-07, 02:41 PM	No. Myrmeen found out that Krystin wasn't actually her daughter... But in the process of learning that, she also learned where her real daughter was. Her real daughter had been raised by a pair of kindly nobles, and was quite happy and content where she was... So Myrmeen left her behind without ever telling her that she was her mother. Krystin asks Myrmeen if her daughter had been everything she'd dreamed, to which Myrmeen responded "No. But you are." And the novel closes with the schmaltzy line "There was a dawn somewhere in this bleak, terrible world, and Myrmeen knew she would no longer have to search for it alone." From that, I presumed she took Krystin back with her to Arabel. -Ah, that's right. I remembered that Krystin wasn't her actual daughter, but I completely forgot that she actually had a real daughter! D'oh! In any case, I didn't really mind that storyline, but the Elminster's Daughter one where Myrmeen basically throws herself all over Vangerdahast, and gets pregnant and vows to raise his heir really drives me potty.) -You mean, you wouldn't want to do the same? Sure, he's an old, crusty wizard, but he's a suave old, crusty wizard. ;) Also, one wonders where the Banshee Knights were, Larynda Telenna, or that divine champion spoken about in CotSQ? -Hanging out with Prince Lamruil and Krystin... -I wonder what's going to become of Rotting Jack now... Oh, right. The uber adventures. I forgot about that. I'm going to chem lab now, where I'll cry a little. -Let is all out. It's okay...
Zandilar 09-04-07, 06:58 PM	Heya, Just read Night Parade while waiting for LP II. Heck, I never knew why I never touched the book before - leaving it in the shelf for about 8 years or so. Now I know, what a shocker of a novel. :weep: I could take it or leave it. Has some interesting things in it, but really it seems a little... out there, if you know what I mean? Anyway, when the NP stuff happened, she was given as a 34-year-old. By the time of Elminster's Daughter, she must have been well in her 40s, something the authors rarely pay significance to, e.g. Cattie-brie. But then again, adventurers and high-up NPCs are always somewhat different and special ... Actually, Myrmeen was around 50, since the age given for her in the Heroes Lorebook was "in her mid 40s", which was about 5-6 game years before Elminster's Daughter, I think. Ed has mentioned that there is something special about her, that she has Tymora's favour, and also hinted at the fact that she may well have access to longevity magic (given it's fairly common among people of high status). At least, the longevity magic might help explain how a 50 year old woman was able to have an easy pregnancy (or maybe it was divine intervention). I'm just hoping it's another daughter, and that it doesn't end up with a "dahast" name, as that would just be stupid. (There's a very good reason Myrmeen didn't tell anyone, aside from probably Alusair, Filfaeril, Caladnei, and possibly Laspeera, who the father of her child was...) -Ah, that's right. I remembered that Krystin wasn't her actual daughter, but I completely forgot that she actually had a real daughter! D'oh! That's all right, I forgive you. ;) Not everyone has a Myrmeen obsession like me. :D -You mean, you wouldn't want to do the same? Sure, he's an old, crusty wizard, but he's a suave old, crusty wizard. ;) No, I wouldn't. If, however, Myrmeen were to waltz into my life and pounce on me, I wouldn't be unhappy. :) -Hanging out with Prince Lamruil and Krystin... The Elvises of the Forgotten Realms? :P
GothicDan 09-04-07, 07:36 PM	I miss you Lamruil...
Lord Karsus 09-04-07, 08:28 PM	That's all right, I forgive you. ;) Not everyone has a Myrmeen obsession like me. :D -Aw, thank you. :) No, I wouldn't. If, however, Myrmeen were to waltz into my life and pounce on me, I wouldn't be unhappy. :) -I might. She is just too manly for me. I kind of have a rule that if a girl could probably beat the crap out of me, I'm not going to try to, well, you know, go after her or anything. Not that I really score with the girls or anything... I miss you Lamruil... -Well, he had a brief mention in The Final Gate. So, at least he hasn't been retconned out. Yet...
Zandilar 09-05-07, 02:46 AM	Heya, -I might. She is just too manly for me. I kind of have a rule that if a girl could probably beat the crap out of me, I'm not going to try to, well, you know, go after her or anything. Not that I really score with the girls or anything... Hmm... I suppose it's personal taste. :) Myrmeen is the sort of woman I'd like to be... But she's also the sort of woman I'd like to be with... In both cases it's because she's so strong. I like Storm for much the same reasons.
ywhtptgtfo 09-05-07, 06:25 AM	Heya, Hmm... I suppose it's personal taste. :) Myrmeen is the sort of woman I'd like to be... But she's also the sort of woman I'd like to be with... In both cases it's because she's so strong. I like Storm for much the same reasons. On the contrary, I dislike tom-boys like Storm, Dove, and many of the women in Cormyr.
Zanan 09-05-07, 07:26 AM	Someone mentioned some spoiler in The Orc King. Any news on what this might be?
Zandilar 09-05-07, 07:42 AM	Heya, Someone mentioned some spoiler in The Orc King. Any news on what this might be? A website, with what may or may not be an accurate synopsis of the novel, including comments on the intro and epilogue... I am not treating it seriously until someone official says something, or until it actually comes out - which ever comes first. It essentially says something of the like of all of Eilistraee's knights/followers on the surface have perished/gone away/disappeared/died... I can't remember the exact wording, though, so take that with a big grain of salt. On the contrary, I dislike tom-boys like Storm, Dove, and many of the women in Cormyr. Not all of them are tomboys. In fact, the only two (leading) women of Cormyr who might fit the bill are Myrmeen and Alusair. Filfaeril, and what I've seen of Caladnei, and even Laspeera, are all strong women, but quite a bit more "feminine".
Lord Karsus 09-05-07, 09:20 AM	A website, with what may or may not be an accurate synopsis of the novel, including comments on the intro and epilogue... I am not treating it seriously until someone official says something, or until it actually comes out - which ever comes first. -Paul Kemp, I believe, has already stated that the prologue and the epilogue will be of some interest to us all. While that really isn't saying anything one way or the other...
DarkSongKnight 09-05-07, 11:06 AM	A website, with what may or may not be an accurate synopsis of the novel, including comments on the intro and epilogue... I am not treating it seriously until someone official says something, or until it actually comes out - which ever comes first. It essentially says something of the like of all of Eilistraee's knights/followers on the surface have perished/gone away/disappeared/died... I can't remember the exact wording, though, so take that with a big grain of salt. I remember reading this, but can't find it now... I believe the words were "and there are no more elven followers of Eilistraee." What that means, is anyone's guess. I find it hard to believe that drow are capable of casting Elven High Magic, and even harder to believe they wiped out a deity with it. Perhaps there isn't such a huge gap between drow and surface elves after all, eh? I believe this may have something to do with 4 ed. coming out.
Lord Karsus 09-05-07, 06:39 PM	I find it hard to believe that drow are capable of casting Elven High Magic, -Especially considering how puny said casters seemed to be, and how the trust to be able to do so, which normally takes decades to foster, kind of suddenly appeared out of the blue. and even harder to believe they wiped out a deity with it. -Well, the same kinda happened to Moander.
Zandilar 09-05-07, 08:27 PM	Heya, -Paul Kemp, I believe, has already stated that the prologue and the epilogue will be of some interest to us all. While that really isn't saying anything one way or the other... Until I see an official person actually saying what I saw on that website is true, or have someone who has read the novel and can prove it confirm it, then I'm not going to believe it. Yes, there might be something of interest in the prologue or epilogue, but we don't know what that is yet.
Lord Karsus 09-06-07, 12:57 PM	Heya, Until I see an official person actually saying what I saw on that website is true, or have someone who has read the novel and can prove it confirm it, then I'm not going to believe it. Yes, there might be something of interest in the prologue or epilogue, but we don't know what that is yet. -Here is the link to his webpage, just so you have it, by the way: http://paulskemp.livejournal.com
DarkSongKnight 09-06-07, 02:18 PM	Yes! My copy of Storm of the Dead just arrived in the mail! I finally get to read it and see what all the fuss is about! But I have work in 30 mins... Drat. :pbbbtt: Once I finish it, I'll post my opinions and review here.
LordVhoori 09-07-07, 09:33 PM	:thinks: Its time of troubles syndrome, a single set of novels should not take it on itslef to fundamentally alter the was that toril functions. This series has effectively killed any attachment that I still felt towards official canon lore. Vhaerun was one of the few convincing, and appealing evil gods, and in my opinion one of the best conceived, and he and the rest of the pantheon have been strewn aside in an overly deus ex machinna consolidation. I really hope that either they find some way to undo the desecration of all that I hold sacred in this crystal sphere, or they go all out, and leave only Lolth left (never liked the dancing maiden), either that, or the author could do away with the pantheon entirely... that would be an interesting turn, no more drow gods... regardless my campaigns keeping Vhaerun, times come to reright the gospel according to canon in my eyes. Actually, I'm starting to have fond memories of Dragonlance...
Shemeska the Marauder 09-08-07, 02:28 PM	Thought excactly the same. And that without any Divine Rank... When he was originally killed, he had divine rank at the time.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-08-07, 02:41 PM	I suddenly see Kiaransalee sitting around on the planes, looking down at Toril where she just had her divine presence ejected.... The Revenencer glanced at Lolth with a look of "What the hell?!". Lolth shrugged. "Don't look at me, I didn't think it would have worked. "See. I told you it would." Orcus said, waving five pudgy fingers at Kiaransalee. "What's HE doing here?" Kiaransalee protested, ready to blast him into dust. Lolth shrugged again. Power welled inside Kia's hands as she pointed them at the tanar'ri lord's face, "Any last words fiend?" "Yes actually." Orcus said, sitting up a bit more and cradling his skull-headed wand across his lap. "Just one actually. One final word. One Last Word..." Orcus smiled, Kiaransalee's eyes went wide, and Lolth munched on popcorn as her fellow pantheon member was summarily erased from reality.
GothicDan 09-08-07, 04:27 PM	I was thinking of someone along the lines of the Last Word, too.
Zanan 09-08-07, 06:35 PM	A gloating Shem ... now that's a sight to behold (not). Matter of factly, we'll see only in a year's time who's actually gone and who is not. Alas, this is "just" FR stuff, so the Core Kia is still very much about and her followers even sit in the goathead's realm.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-08-07, 07:12 PM	A gloating Shem ... now that's a sight to behold (not). To be honest, my previous post aside, I don't like her apparent death within FR, right when things were getting really interesting and she was getting more exposure. It seems overly forced to me. My post above doesn't reflect my views on what happened, or what should happen, it was just an idea that popped into my head. Matter of factly, we'll see only in a year's time who's actually gone and who is not. Alas, this is "just" FR stuff, so the Core Kia is still very much about and her followers even sit in the goathead's realm. Indeed. In the multiverse at large, Kiaransalee is perfectly fine, though perhaps down exposure in one world. She and Orcus can go right on plotting against one another. Honestly, she's my favorite member of the drow pantheon, for reasons including but not limited to her having killed off the population of an entire world on her own as a mortal, and having grasped divinity well previous to Araushnee's exile into the Abyss.
GothicDan 09-08-07, 07:39 PM	I'll second Kiaransalee as being the 'coolest' Drow deity.
Todesherr 09-08-07, 08:00 PM	I'll second Kiaransalee as being the 'coolest' Drow deity. I'll third her but considering that Araunshee was hanging out up there in Arborea over 30,000 years ago and Kiaransalee was divine before her, you would think she would have increased her divine rank or something during all that time but no, a demipower the WHOLE time, weird...
GothicDan 09-08-07, 08:09 PM	I'd wager that has to do with the fact that Lolth has a much longer real life nostalgia about her than Kiaransalee.
SgtAnjay 09-09-07, 01:28 AM	Well, Kiaransalee started at the bottom as a mortal and worked herself up to divinity, then had to consilidate (in the Abyss, no less), work up worship base, expand across planes.... Lolth had worshippers and divinity before she fell to the demonwebs, and made sure she got her worshipers and divinity back after she fell. After that she used this influence to keep poor ol' Kia down. Basically, Lolth was born with a silver spoon in her mouth, she wasn't starting from scratch. Not a fair race. And yes, I'll throw a vote to the Revenancer.
Arbourean 09-09-07, 01:39 AM	The year wait until the final book (conveniently well within the time for 4ed.) has me thinking that Eilistraee is going to win, and will redeem the drow race en mass. Just a theory.
Arbourean 09-09-07, 01:41 AM	And for those griping that it wasn't EHM, as I recall Corellon is chaotic: He can change the rules if he wanted to, and maybe he does want his daughter to succeed?
Zandilar 09-09-07, 08:48 AM	Heya, The year wait until the final book (conveniently well within the time for 4ed.) has me thinking that Eilistraee is going to win, and will redeem the drow race en mass. Just a theory. That doesn't appear to be the case in light of spoilers contained in the sample chapter provided for The Orc King (http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/Products/default.aspx?doc=959867200). Maybe she get a short term victory. Maybe if the Realms is only going 10 years ahead we'll get to see Eilistraee victorious... but I would also expect her to be much changed... Certainly not the Eilistraee I "fell in love" (for lack of a better way to put it - she is a fictitious deity, after all) with. I know I've said I was considering leaving the Realms and Dungeons and Dragons behind... but perhaps it is still a little bit too early to tell... However, if things go as I suspect they will (at this point), then unfortunately Wizards is likely to loose a loyal customer.
Lord Karsus 09-09-07, 09:30 AM	And for those griping that it wasn't EHM, as I recall Corellon is chaotic: He can change the rules if he wanted to, and maybe he does want his daughter to succeed? -It wasn't. Don't worry about it.
GothicDan 09-09-07, 10:25 AM	Arbourean is kinda' ignorant cute...
Lord Karsus 09-09-07, 04:08 PM	-Dan, he's an '07er. He's a minor. Wait a little bit, so it's all legal.
DarkSongKnight 09-09-07, 05:12 PM	I finished Storm of the Dead, and think it was better than the first book. There have been some major changes in Eilistraee's faith. It is set in 1376, and it has been near two years since Eilistraee killed and absorbed Vhaeraun. In that time, males have become accepted (well, tolerated is a better word) in her faith as clerics. These males are mostly the "nightshadows" from Vhaeraun's faith that now serve "The Masked Lady." They participate in High Hunts, running around naked like the priestesses. :rolleyes: You can imagine the effect this has had on after-ritual activities. Eilistraee's symbol now appears to be a half-moon. Part of it moonlight, part of it shadow. She also accepts more underhanded means of dealing with foes, including using assassins (the nightshadows). There is a split in the faith. Those who cling to the older worship styles of Eilistraee, and the newer ones who accept her shadow aspect. Cavatina (drow Clr 14/Ftr 8), the DarksongKnight that defeated Selvetarm in the first novel, still clings to the older ways of worship, and is somewhat resentful and suspicious of the males. There is a great part of a chapter, that describes her on the High Hunt. It really does an incredible job at describing what it would be like to be an Eilistraeen on the High Hunt. I particularly enjoyed that bit. It later goes on to say that she pretty much ignored the shadows that came along with the moonlight in her clerical powers. She is later betrayed by Halisstra and captured by Wendonai. She is tied up, but not gagged. He tries to make her bitter, poking at her weakness that she will never be redeemed. She sees the flaw in that logic, as the ritual of redemption had to be made for something. She then realizes that redemption isn't so much about turning from "evil" to "good," but more about facing one's own weaknesses and fears, and overcoming them for the better. Eilistraee herself then manifests protective powers long enough over Cavatina, to allow the DarksongKnight the chance to kill Wendonai. Oh yeah, she also leads a battle against the Acropolis of Thanatos, Kiaransalee's main temple, and they would have lost if the wizard drow (Q' something?) hadn't erased her name. He did this to keep the voidstone that the followers of Kiaransalee were going to use to summon an undead army into the world, from making faezress (sp?) stronger, and thus luring more drow back from the surface into the underdark. Apparently, faezress was part of the High Magic ritual used during the descent. The faezress lured the drow into the underdark. There is a conspiracy theory held by one of Vhaeraun's faithful that Vhaeraun has merely disguised himself as Eilistraee in order to allow his faithful to sneak into Eilistraee's strongholds of power, and to test his faithful. The heretic also adds that the time will come for the Masked Lord to reclaim those who have been faithful, etc. A nightshadow assassin was sent to kill him, but he convinces the assassin that what he says is true. That same nightshadow goes on to lead the nightshadow section of the crusade against the Acropolis, alongside Cavatina. For some reasons, the priestesses of Eilistraee wanted that follower of Vhaeraun dead because the priestesses were saying that it was Eilistraee who went into Vhaeraun's plane and killed him, and not the other way around. I'm not sure why it would be important as to which deity entered who's domain, as Vhaeraun is apparently dead either way. There have also been some odd going-ons with Qilue. She "attunes" herself to the Crescent Blade, and accepts the change in her faith without a second thought. There is one part where Cavatina gets irked that a male walks into the Cavern of Song and begins singing, as only females had sang there non-stop for all the years that the Promenade had been founded. She contacts Qilue, who responds with a mere "that has to change to" or something along the lines thereof. *takes breath* What a crammed and rushed piece of work. :embarrass I'm not sure what to think of all these changes. My head is still spinning.
Lord Karsus 09-09-07, 06:38 PM	There have also been some odd going-ons with Qilue. She "attunes" herself to the Crescent Blade, and accepts the change in her faith without a second thought. There is one part where Cavatina gets irked that a male walks into the Cavern of Song and begins singing, as only females had sang there non-stop for all the years that the Promenade had been founded. She contacts Qilue, who responds with a mere "that has to change to" or something along the lines thereof. -Methinks that Qilue is turning to the dark side. Just like Zanassu's evil essence corrupted Selvetarm, so too does it seem that Selvetarm's evil essence is corrupting Qilue. But, that's just me...
Vulpes 09-09-07, 08:44 PM	-Methinks that Qilue is turning to the dark side. Just like Zanassu's evil essence corrupted Selvetarm, so too does it seem that Selvetarm's evil essence is corrupting Qilue. But, that's just me... I actually think it's Lolth's evil essence in the sword, just because it was... off even when Cavatina had it. It was reforged and sitting in the Demonweb Pits for a while, and that inscription's all screwed up, so I think it's part of Lolth's game to turn one of E's most powerful pieces into her own.
SmartPaladin 09-09-07, 11:06 PM	-Methinks that Qilue is turning to the dark side. Just like Zanassu's evil essence corrupted Selvetarm, so too does it seem that Selvetarm's evil essence is corrupting Qilue. But, that's just me... I actually think it's Lolth's evil essence in the sword, just because it was... off even when Cavatina had it. It was reforged and sitting in the Demonweb Pits for a while, and that inscription's all screwed up, so I think it's part of Lolth's game to turn one of E's most powerful pieces into her own. Wouldn't Lolth still have to worry about Mystra? Qilue is one of Mystra's chosen as well if you recall.
Vulpes 09-09-07, 11:10 PM	Wouldn't Lolth still have to worry about Mystra? Qilue is one of Mystra's chosen as well if you recall. I don't think so. The game is between Lolth and E about the future of the drow, with Ao as witness. It really doesn't have much to do with Mystra.
SmartPaladin 09-09-07, 11:19 PM	I don't think so. The game is between Lolth and E about the future of the drow, with Ao as witness. It really doesn't have much to do with Mystra. That's true. I guess I was mostly wondering if Mystra would get a say about Qilue, though if she does lose her, think she'll Qilue of her chosen of Mystra staus?
Lord Karsus 09-09-07, 11:57 PM	I don't think so. The game is between Lolth and E about the future of the drow, with Ao as witness. It really doesn't have much to do with Mystra. -Of course it does, in so much as Qilue is involved in all of the nonsense.
Crazygx34 09-10-07, 12:12 AM	I say kill Loth! Loth is not so powerfull she got a fear based closed empire. Priestress wokship her but other are forced to her. Loth keep fear in the drow and stop there evolution. She make her web , alot are caugh in it, but she is bad for the drow and she the real ennemie for a lot of them. Drow are sexy, girls mistress rules but Loth spider make me make nightmare. Eilistraee could win and her evil instinct gain surface, embrace a whip and take down the web of loth and purge her way up to attack surface.. What lot real ennemy of the drow keep fear of this world light surface... Hight priestress leave spider and leave down there cloth like ther new goddess ... all are going enjoy the new sexy Eilistraee.. The big fat ugly spider queen dead...:clap:
ywhtptgtfo 09-10-07, 02:00 AM	I say kill Loth! Loth is not so powerfull she got a fear based closed empire. Priestress wokship her but other are forced to her. Loth keep fear in the drow and stop there evolution. She make her web , alot are caugh in it, but she is bad for the drow and she the real ennemie for a lot of them. Drow are sexy, girls mistress rules but Loth spider make me make nightmare. Eilistraee could win and her evil instinct gain surface, embrace a whip and take down the web of loth and purge her way up to attack surface.. What lot real ennemy of the drow keep fear of this world light surface... Hight priestress leave spider and leave down there cloth like ther new goddess ... all are going enjoy the new sexy Eilistraee.. The big fat ugly spider queen dead...:clap: Kobolds...
Crazygx34 09-10-07, 02:28 AM	:detect:
Arbourean 09-10-07, 03:27 AM	-It wasn't. Don't worry about it. I'll admit my lack of knowledge on the matter. Point me towards the lore.
Zanan 09-10-07, 04:12 AM	I say kill Loth! First, Loth is an abbreviation for yugoloth and you are right, kill them all off. (Shem, do you copy? ;) ) Second, don't get me wrong, but how old are you?
Lord Karsus 09-10-07, 12:26 PM	First, Loth is an abbreviation for yugoloth and you are right, kill them all off. (Shem, do you copy? ;) ) -Uh oh...Them's fightin' words. I'll admit my lack of knowledge on the matter. Point me towards the lore. -See Elves of Faerûn, a link to which is provided in my signature.
Crazygx34 09-10-07, 08:34 PM	First, Loth is an abbreviation for yugoloth and you are right, kill them all off. (Shem, do you copy? ;) ) Second, don't get me wrong, but how old are you? I don't know if she a yugoloth but it's on wikipedia : Loth in drow dialect mean Demon Queen of Spiders. And what a read of her she was the wife of Corelleon Lorethian and he punish her and transform. Eilistraee was their little baby girl. No copy I assure it from my hearth...I don't love spider... maybe Corelleon Lorethian can forgive her and give her is original sexy Dark elf look..:embarrass I'm 27 years olds , 6'3 foot , 200 pound , brown and blue eye and you....:cool:
Shemeska the Marauder 09-10-07, 09:00 PM	I don't know if she a yugoloth but it's on wikipedia : Loth in drow dialect mean Demon Queen of Spiders. Lloth is a variation of Lolth used by some drow. Loth or 'loth (single L) is shorthand for yugoloth. [Or it was a spelling error by an author if you want the jaded, out of game answer ;)] Yes. Lolth and Lloth versus 'loth. Big difference... El'ziira screamed out of the final words of her incantation, feeling the powerful summoning magic build within her body like the intoxicating rush of centuries old mushroom wine. The power grew and grew before finally it erupted from her lips as a gust of wind to make the candles that ringed her summoning circle flare, flicker, and finally die. The room grew colder and she watched, wide-eyed as the curls of smoke took on the forms of dancing, cavorting figures, tiny devils of smoke and shadow. This is it the priestess thought, the tome was correct. A ceremony to summon an aspect of the Spider Queen herself. With a tangible fragment of their goddess to lead and inspire them, the drow under her command would reign supreme over their corner of the thousand caverns. The smoke cleared and a low, rumbling inhalation filled the room. "Hail Lloth!" El'ziira shouted as the figure took form. "Damnit!" A bestial voice called out from the circle. "Where in the Oinoloth's name am I this time?!" El'ziira blinked. Standing there in her summoning circle was not an aspect or avatar of the Spider Queen, but a powerfully muscled, winged, four-armed fiend with a vaguely dog-like head. Smoldering eyes narrowed and locked with her own, and then the fiend began to mutter and lapse into a string of soft explatives. "Again with you drow!" The nycaloth complained. "What is wrong with you mortals?" "But you are not... I mean..." The 'loth held up one hand to silence her. "No. Seriously. Does living in the dark make your eyesight so poor that you constantly, CONSTANTLY, must screw up the names of what you try to summon." "You are not Lloth." El'ziira hissed with disappointment. She had no avatar of her goddess, she just had a surly fiend. "No I'm not." The 'loth replied, leaning forwards to the edge of the circle. "And neither is Lolth you mortal dolt. There's a difference between Lolth and 'loth. One is some rather bitter chick that got dumped rather publically by Corellon Larethian, and the latter is a nickname for the best type of fiends." "What blasphemy do you speak?!" The drow demanded. Seiromoth the Eater of Mustevals rolled his eyes. "EMO goddess versus Manifest Evil. What is so hard about this to understand?" The drow broke into hysterics at that point and the 'loth started mocking her even more. "I'm a 'loth, short for Yugoloth. Your silly little deity is named Lolth, not Lloth. So guess what genius? Since the pronunciation is the same it screws up summonings!" Seiromoth clapped two hands to his cheeks and gave a mock look of astonishment, and the drow was by that point kicking over candles and ranting, lost in her own little world of drow-drama. "So now that you've called me here, what am I supposed to do? Not a very comfy summoning circle. What do you have to pass the time around here? And shouldn't you be off summoning a glabrezu to... you know... and because Tanar'ri gossip incessently, I heard from Glorfogoth of Abyssm that drow were overrated. Just saying. Do you have any larvae? Because I'm kinda hungry. And..." *** Don't let this happen to you. You might be trying to summon the Demon Queen of Spiders, but you too might end up summoning a cranky and wise-cracking greater yugoloth instead. Spare yourself this fate. It's Lolth, not Lloth and certainly not Loth. This has been a public service message from the Gehenna Public Awareness Council. The more you know. *little flying star thingy*
Crazygx34 09-10-07, 09:33 PM	Their you all wrong their was no error for name. It's like if a call Jack Jonhson but real it Jacque Jonson , sorry no error. Lolth an Loth = Spider queen but I apologies for all that I touch.. Sorry all it my error in my head Loth is Lolth for you.. but I still want to thank all who believe and me and my mother .. It not easy the live of artist when you are not a star.:cool:
Lord Karsus 09-11-07, 09:58 AM	but it's on wikipedia : Loth in drow dialect mean Demon Queen of Spiders... -That's incorrect. Wikipedia strikes again!
Alediran 09-11-07, 11:20 AM	Jajajajajaj, lol on shemy's story.
Crazygx34 09-12-07, 04:53 AM	-That's incorrect. Wikipedia strikes again! I mean Lolth and not loth I don't know the difference but for the deity Lolth they say that. I what the truth you look like to know , you speak elven I think.. But that a little true they often name her the Spider Queen and she is or was a demon with a lot of spider around is web... :surrender
Lord Karsus 09-12-07, 12:49 PM	But that a little true they often name her the Spider Queen and she is or was a demon with a lot of spider around is web... :surrender -Yes, that much is true.
Straploknight 09-12-07, 07:42 PM	It's good to see Zanan's favorites miffed by novels. ;) Feel my pain. Oh gawd, that made my night, LMFAO! - Not that I harbor any ill will toward Zanan, just the welcome to my neighborhood sentiment.
Straploknight 09-12-07, 08:00 PM	-That's incorrect. Wikipedia strikes again! Y'know I think I heard someone saying that they caught Lolth editing her own entries!
Lord Karsus 09-13-07, 12:34 AM	Y'know I think I heard someone saying that they caught Lolth editing her own entries! -Sounds like something she'd do...:nonono:
Sylock 09-13-07, 08:32 AM	-That wasn't Elven High Magic that was cast in Sacrifice of the Widow. You can say I am wrong, Lisa Smedman can say that I am wrong, Rich Baker can I am wrong...but, I am correct. Elven High Magic rituals, first of all, were not written "on scrolls". They are stored in Selu'Kiira. Secondly, we know that Drow do not exibit the ability to cast Elven High Magic anymore, due to their untrusting and suspicious natures. I fail to see how spending a little time along with a few strangers is enough to allow you to trust them so much such that Elven High Magic is possible. Epic Magic? Sure, why not? Elven High Magic? No, absolutely not. Uhm, didn't you notice that there are now two subraces of drow? That was actually the whole point of the book in my opinion. There are the drow that were corrupted by the Balor which just so happened to be almost as powerful as a god (from the last bit of the sava game) that had corrupted most of the drow. However there were still a few that were not, and those that were used to cast the High Elven Magic at the end of the book were of those drow that were not yet corrupted throughout the mingling of family trees. BTW, Lolth owed that Balor something big, she set him up to be killed period. Lolth orchastrated that whole thing, notice that in these two books El is the one that is using all her resources in the fight with the other drow gods? The title of the last book in that series kind of tells me something, or makes me theorize that El gets Ascended into something else ... she will be the last of non-Lolth drow gods. Will she bring some of the drow back as simply dark elves (notice in the 2nd book that there is a difference, dark elves were made INTO drow ... read the part where the Kira is talking to the drow wizard). Anyway, I think ... or rather have wild ideas that there has to be some kind of separation ... remember that this sava game is for the ultimate control of the DROW and Ao is watching. By the end of book 3 there has to be only one god of the DROW ... so how to keep El? She is able to bring out her children, the ones that weren't corrupted by the Balor, back as dark elves. Wild eh? Yeah I'm crazy.
Sylock 09-13-07, 08:41 AM	On the contrary, I dislike tom-boys like Storm, Dove, and many of the women in Cormyr. You don't know what you are missing. Tom-boys are the only way to go. Give me an athletic, smart, self-sufficient woman any day over a needy, brittle, whinny thing.
GothicDan 09-13-07, 08:43 AM	... That's a tom-boy? That just sounds like a proper person.
Lord Karsus 09-13-07, 10:48 AM	Uhm, didn't you notice that there are now two subraces of drow? -Um...no. There are Drow, whose ancestors can be traced back to Ilythiir, and there are Drow, whose ancestors can be traced back to Miyeritar. That's always been like that. Your blood has to take you somewhere. They are all genetically the same, however, leaving only a single Drow race. The 'corruption' that Wendonai talks of is a moral corruption for most, and of course, I am sure he did leave his demon taint behind in some, in the form of a Half-Drow/Half-Demon child. However there were still a few that were not, and those that were used to cast the High Elven Magic at the end of the book were of those drow that were not yet corrupted throughout the mingling of family trees. -Epic magic. (notice in the 2nd book that there is a difference, dark elves were made INTO drow ... read the part where the Kira is talking to the drow wizard). -Yes, that is, again, a well established fact already.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-13-07, 12:54 PM	You don't know what you are missing. Tom-boys are the only way to go. Give me an athletic, smart, self-sufficient woman any day over a needy, brittle, whinny thing. So if a woman is not a tom-boy, she's not smart, not self-sufficient, and is needy, brittle, and whiny?
Sylock 09-13-07, 02:37 PM	-Um...no. There are Drow, whose ancestors can be traced back to Ilythiir, and there are Drow, whose ancestors can be traced back to Miyeritar. That's always been like that. Your blood has to take you somewhere. They are all genetically the same, however, leaving only a single Drow race. The 'corruption' that Wendonai talks of is a moral corruption for most, and of course, I am sure he did leave his demon taint behind in some, in the form of a Half-Drow/Half-Demon child. I think it was much more then moral corruption since it was pasted down from a parent. It talks about there being very few to only have only Miyeritar blood left (I may have that backwards ... Miyeritar are the ones that weren't corrupted right). Of the ones that mingled blood their kids became tainted. Thus it wasn't moral corruption. Plus the 'pure' Miyeritar were morally corrupted by just being in drow society, or so says the Kiri and that's why Q'man did some bad things and was suspecious. No the balors corruption wasn't just moral, it was born into those drow. At that point there was a sub-race in my book.
Sylock 09-13-07, 02:40 PM	So if a woman is not a tom-boy, she's not smart, not self-sufficient, and is needy, brittle, and whiny? I didn't say that, I said that a tom-boy is athletic, smart, and self-sufficient. Other women can be those things too, but those are some qualities of a tom-boy.
GothicDan 09-13-07, 03:02 PM	I really find that definition to be... Lacking. Ethical reasons aside. It implies that such characteristics are more commonly associated with males than females. Now, I actually do agree with that to a point (society made us what we are), but certainly not at all in other respects. I just don't see those qualities, even all grouped together, as being idiosyncratic to the tomboy archetype.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-13-07, 03:16 PM	I just don't see those qualities, even all grouped together, as being idiosyncratic to the tomboy archetype. Neither do I. As far as drow from Miyeritar go--what I'm hearing here (granted, I haven't read SotD yet) kind of clashes with what we learn in the novel Blackstaff: In Blackstaff, the sharn who were once dark elves in ancient Miyeritar choose to stay sharn, because if they returned to their original form (as the other sharn did), they would be subject to Corellon's curse like the rest of the dark elves and would become drow. Maybe that clashes with SotD, maybe it doesn't, but it does suggest that drow who were from Miyeritar didn't have a fate that was any different from that of other drow. They were not "special".
Nighttfall 09-13-07, 03:41 PM	*sighs* I'm not against killing gods, especially the one that killed my god Orcus. (He's god folks. Ghostwalk proved that. :p) Now with her sort of gone and Orcus not being involved I'm REALLY not happy about that. Orcus, above anyone else, deserved a shot at putting her head on his wall in Everlost.
Lord Karsus 09-13-07, 04:20 PM	I think it was much more then moral corruption since it was pasted down from a parent. It talks about there being very few to only have only Miyeritar blood left (I may have that backwards ... Miyeritar are the ones that weren't corrupted right). Of the ones that mingled blood their kids became tainted. Thus it wasn't moral corruption. Plus the 'pure' Miyeritar were morally corrupted by just being in drow society, or so says the Kiri and that's why Q'man did some bad things and was suspecious. No the balors corruption wasn't just moral, it was born into those drow. At that point there was a sub-race in my book. -As I have stated earlier, all that is needed for moral corruption to begin is a single individual in power. -Take Nazi Germany, for example. It is in my opinion that, at the time, the majority of greater Nazi Germany was suffering from moral corruption, due to the political policies of one Adolf Hitler. -Is moral corruption permanent? No. It leaves behind a percieved taint, however. In the United States, one cannot look back on our past concerning the Atlantic Slave Trade, and not feel the slightest bit of regret, and even ashame. -The Dark Elves of Miyeritar, for the most part, were never tainted by Wendonai. The Dark Elves of Ilythiir were. Since both nations eventually fell and mingled in the Underdark, as Drow, Lolth eventually won, and became extremely important and affluent in Drow society, which was her goal in the first place, as she wanted additional worshippers to aid her in her bid to have her divinity reinstated. -This, of course, was thousands and thousands of years ago. About eleven thousand, to be exact. If you figure an Elven generation passes every century, as Elves reach maturity at about the century mark, that is eleven hundred Elven generations that have passes since the Descent of the Drow. -After eleven hundred generations, blood of any kind is going to run extremely thin. Elven nobles, such as the Moonflower clan, for instance, keep it as thick as possible by intermarriage (the marrying of cousins and such). Now, in a chaotic Drow society, where individuals are not even aware of bloodlines dating back to the days where the Dark Elves lived and breathed on the surface world? The connection is going to be extremely diluted, extremely mixed... -The idea that was presented, that the Drow of the Melarn family have pure blood, dating back to Miyeritar, is just plain dumb. I am sorry. It is just physically not possible, in my estimation, without serious planning and foresight. And, as we have absolutely no information that such planning was made by the Drow of the Melarn family, it did not happen. -And, I don't recall where I was going with all of this anymore...Suffice to say, though, I think I've said enough.
Nighttfall 09-13-07, 05:14 PM	All I know is two things: 1) Shemeska is the best 'Loth in all the multiverse. And she's also correct, Lolth is a whiny emo goddess. :p 2) Orcus should have been the one to kill Kiaranselee. :banghead: :devil: Too bad there's no Tannar'ri smiley.
Sylock 09-13-07, 06:21 PM	-As I have stated earlier, all that is needed for moral corruption to begin is a single individual in power. -The Dark Elves of Miyeritar, for the most part, were never tainted by Wendonai. The Dark Elves of Ilythiir were. Since both nations eventually fell and mingled in the Underdark, Then you need to re-read the chapters with Wendonai, Halistra's ancestory was from Miryeritar and never mixed with a drow that was tainted. Thus she was never tainted. The Darksong Knight was tainted because someone from her past generation was tainted. Thus Wendonai was telling her she coulde not be redemed. If it were simply a moral corruption then your mother and father wouldn't matter at all, it would be society, however that's not the case.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-13-07, 06:26 PM	Then you need to re-read the chapters with Wendonai, Halistra's ancestory was from Miryeritar and never mixed with a drow that was tainted. Thus she was never tainted. The Darksong Knight was tainted because someone from her past generation was tainted. Thus Wendonai was telling her she coulde not be redemed. If it were simply a moral corruption then your mother and father wouldn't matter at all, it would be society, however that's not the case. If that's really the case, it all sounds a bit silly to me...
Sylock 09-13-07, 06:43 PM	I really find that definition to be... Lacking. Ethical reasons aside. It implies that such characteristics are more commonly associated with males than females. Now, I actually do agree with that to a point (society made us what we are), but certainly not at all in other respects. I just don't see those qualities, even all grouped together, as being idiosyncratic to the tomboy archetype. I would love to see your definition then. My wife, and almost all my other friends that are girls would kick your arse for saying "such characteristics are more commonly associated with males than females". Actually they would get you out on a sand volleyball court and tatoo you. Of course I have always gravitated towards those kind of women so that's why most of my friends are like that. Granted I'm 34 and things have changed a bit, but athletic girls, the ones that would not only compete but beat the average gym class male at sports were always labeled tom-boys. The girls that refused to act ditsy in order to not intimidate the immature boys were the ones that would laugh at the dumb people and make fun of them, thus they would get labeled and made fun of by the girly-girls ... not that they cared since they knew better. Now were there girls that were smart and athletic and self sufficient that weren't tom-boys? Of course. But there's never been a girl that I know that I would consider a tom-boy that could care less about fitting in, they were themselves, strong, smart, and able to tell the world what they thought. And of course that doesn't mean that non tom-boys can't do that either. Now, what is your definiition of a tom-boy.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-13-07, 07:20 PM	I would love to see your definition then. My wife, and almost all my other friends that are girls would kick your arse for saying "such characteristics are more commonly associated with males than females". Actually, I think that was kind of his point...by saying that smart, athletic and self-sufficient woman are tom-BOYS (note the "boy" part), you are associating those qualities with maleness. For the record, I am a "girly-girl", not really "athletic" (although I like numerous outdoor activities, like hiking), but I'm also intelligent, self-sufficient, and not "needy, brittle, and whiny". I strongly doubt could beat the typical in-shape male in most physical activities (weight-lifting? HAH, forget it), but that's true for a lot of women, and I don't think that makes me, or them, "brittle" or someone who should be looked upon with contempt.
Sylock 09-13-07, 08:23 PM	Actually, I think that was kind of his point...by saying that smart, athletic and self-sufficient woman are tom-BOYS (note the "boy" part), you are associating those qualities with maleness. For the record, I am a "girly-girl", not really "athletic" (although I like numerous outdoor activities, like hiking), but I'm also intelligent, self-sufficient, and not "needy, brittle, and whiny". I strongly doubt could beat the typical in-shape male in most physical activities (weight-lifting? HAH, forget it), but that's true for a lot of women, and I don't think that makes me, or them, "brittle" or someone who should be looked upon with contempt. I was the one that said that those traits were tom-boyish, I thought he was saying those were male oriented. Tom-boy was a term that people used derrogatively when a guy was intimidated or better by a girl when I was younger, women like my wife have fought for that to be a good term instead of negative. Hmm, I never said you should be looked at with contempt. Where did you get that idea? Or was that from someone else? In fact I said most tom-boys are looked down at. Anyway, the whole thing started with me saying I liked tom-boys. *shrug*
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-13-07, 08:57 PM	Hmm, I never said you should be looked at with contempt. Where did you get that idea? You didn't say that. But your words implied it, to me, even if you may not have meant it that way--I know you weren't talking about me, personally, but you could have said you liked tom-boys without drawing a false dichotomy between "tomboys" and whiny, dumb, brittle girly-girls (your words, not mine). Not all strong women are also star-athletes. I generally don't care what people think of me, but I wasn't going to let such words go unchallenged. I'm not even really upset with you, I just think said some things that were mean, perhaps without really meaning to.
Crazygx34 09-13-07, 11:34 PM	Lolth is a whiny emo goddess. :p Yes its true but what the meaning of whiny emo goddess:confused:
Nighttfall 09-13-07, 11:44 PM	http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/whiney There's a definition of whiney. http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/EMOS That's what I mean by emo. :p If I had had my druthers all the drow pantheon would be dead and we have proper dark elves worshipping fiends.
Zanan 09-14-07, 04:53 AM	All I know is two things: 1) Shemeska is the best 'Loth in all the multiverse. And she's also correct, Lolth is a whiny emo goddess. :p 2) Orcus should have been the one to kill Kiaranselee. :banghead: :devil: Too bad there's no Tannar'ri smiley. Nightfall! NIIIIIIGHTFAAAAAAALL! You had you're two lines and and rantings. it is o.k.. The goathead wasn't anywhere in sight and rest assured, the followers of Kiaransalee not going mad like the Crones described in the novel will still hunt the followers of the Twice-slain. Now, hush, back under your tombstone again! :evillaugh:
Crazygx34 09-14-07, 11:27 PM	http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/whiney There's a definition of whiney. http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/EMOS That's what I mean by emo. :p If I had had my druthers all the drow pantheon would be dead and we have proper dark elves worshipping fiends. Ooookay! I will sleep less stupid tonight! I was thinking it meaning small(petite),skinny /mad,angry or bad Goddess. I was close.:)
Nighttfall 09-15-07, 12:18 AM	Crazy, In the same way that Zanan is close to thinking that Kiaranselee isn't dead, probably. Zanan, They can hunt for Orcus all they like. He's already killed Demogorgon thanks to some would be adventurers. So now the Abyss shakes at the new Demon Prince of Undead AND Prince of Demons.
Zanan 09-15-07, 04:44 AM	Crazy, In the same way that Zanan is close to thinking that Kiaranselee isn't dead, probably. Zanan, They can hunt for Orcus all they like. He's already killed Demogorgon thanks to some would be adventurers. So now the Abyss shakes at the new Demon Prince of Undead AND Prince of Demons. Dunno, but that is an optional ending of Demogorgon as described in one Dungeon adventure, isn't it? Much like the demise of the yankis' Lichqueen in a similar adventure? As in: might become canon or not? Anyway, the Legion will love more opponents.
Nighttfall 09-15-07, 11:06 AM	Zanan, Perhaps but considering WotC approves most of the content for Dungeon as well as Dragon, I'd say the option still exists. (Besides PC Prince of Demons would just be...unrealistic.) They can love all the stuff they want. Orcus, with the support (or at least more backing) of the TRUE Abyss will be happy to put Kiaranselee's head on his mantle.
Red_Wizard 09-15-07, 11:35 AM	-As I have stated earlier, all that is needed for moral corruption to begin is a single individual in power. The corruption of the Ilythiiri drow, which were the Dhaerow, runs far deeper, to a demonic level than that garnered solely from a corrupting government. I think that is the difference being suggested, and the given reason for a violent nature, and inclination towards chaos and destruction. -Take Nazi Germany, for example. It is in my opinion that, at the time, the majority of greater Nazi Germany was suffering from moral corruption, due to the political policies of one Adolf Hitler. The debate behind this is unfortunately unrelated, and a tad longer than I'd like to get into here. Regardless morals in general are socially ambiguous, and largely based upon the time, area, and upbringing of the people in question. Simply because we see something as "wrong" now, in no way makes it so -This, of course, was thousands and thousands of years ago. About eleven thousand, to be exact. If you figure an Elven generation passes every century, as Elves reach maturity at about the century mark, that is eleven hundred Elven generations that have passes since the Descent of the Drow. Actually by math it'd only be 110, but who's counting. ;) -The idea that was presented, that the Drow of the Melarn family have pure blood, dating back to Miyeritar, is just plain dumb. I am sorry. It is just physically not possible, in my estimation, without serious planning and foresight. And, as we have absolutely no information that such planning was made by the Drow of the Melarn family, it did not happen. While the lack of mingling between Miyeritari, and Ilythiiri is unlikely over any period of time, it is not impossible as you state. You are looking at an average of 100 years as a generation, and then garnering a total of 1100 -- which I point out should have been 110. However if you take a number more akin to the 1000+ years they can live, you only get 11 generations, which is much more plausible for a house untainted by the corruptive evil of Wendonai, to maintain their pure blood. Also, given that the ones who made the Kiira's were also the founders of house Melarn, and therefore the ones wanting to maintain the purity, it seems entirely feasible that they'd have put pure blood practices into effect early on, driving it home that interbreeding perhaps made you less noble, and therefore would annul your chance of ever ruling the house. A guess, but more plausible than simply saying impossible. To your points of Elven magic now, I disagree as well. You have three superior magic styles in True magic, Elven high magic, and Epic Magic. In each case, some powerful force has to be drawn upon before use is possible, and only one has been ruled out as possible at this time. True magic, as I have suggested before, and IMO seems the most likely given lore, drew it's power directly from Mystryl, thus avoiding all cost and negative effects on the caster the spell would have had. This is the best, and most efficient magic, and also easily discernible as to why the Netherese switched from training towards high magic, for true magic. Epic magic which we see now is the magic the elves used, and the level the Netherese would eventually have attained, had they not acquired the Nether scrolls. In this case however, in order to cast it alone you are required to take in the powerful essence of a being capable of channeling such power. This is represented in stats by taking the epic spellcasting feat, and in the novels as exchanging ones soul for either a infernal/demonic essance, or going for one of a more angelic nature. Lastly Elven high magic. It is nothing special or different at it's core, simply a more communal way of casting Epic spells. Being a race that can feel one another, and sense the emotions around them from their brethren, it is not surprising they opted to work together to achieve such levels of power, over doing away with their souls to cast it individually. Ultimately it comes down to what you are willing to accept as Canon. All this speculation on my part is drawn from a combination of old sources, and current novels. As novels are stated as being canon, one must then include them in their thought process on the matters they pertain to. Were we to omit the novels, I'd be more inclined to see things your way. However the novels are all working nicely together to expand upon the lore, and while changes are being made, they are not silly, nor damaging, or nonsensical, so I see no reason to condemn them as incorrect.
Red_Wizard 09-15-07, 11:42 AM	They can hunt for Orcus all they like. He's already killed Demogorgon thanks to some would be adventurers. So now the Abyss shakes at the new Demon Prince of Undead AND Prince of Demons. If you'd read the final installment, you know full well that Demo beats the **** out of Orcus, and sends him crying back to his layer, to lick his wounds and recover. And Demo is only optionally dead for DM's. His death is not canonized, nor supported by the article.
Red_Wizard 09-15-07, 11:47 AM	Sorry, one more post I promise. To this Tom-boy nonsense, I think the women offended should perhaps suck it up just a tad. I agree that calling something "Tom-boy" to those all about female empowerment can seem like a sexist term, but in the manner it was used, it was not meant as such. I myself prefer intelligent, confident, and self empowered women, which when younger often comes across in a manner that most will deem Tom-boyish. Ditsy annoying girls are not appealing for much beyond what they usually get used for, and I think thats all the OP was implying.
Zanan 09-15-07, 01:07 PM	Zanan, Perhaps but considering WotC approves most of the content for Dungeon as well as Dragon, I'd say the option still exists. (Besides PC Prince of Demons would just be...unrealistic.) They can love all the stuff they want. Orcus, with the support (or at least more backing) of the TRUE Abyss will be happy to put Kiaranselee's head on his mantle. Well, yes. And, BTW, the "Gloating about the Goathead" - Thread is the next one. :P Edit: Red Wizard, can I hire you for a day or two to keep Nightfall away from here? ;)
Nighttfall 09-15-07, 04:39 PM	I fear no Red Wizard, Thayan or otherwise. Red Wizard, Yeah but it's thanks to Orcus that the PCs manage to win. It's not canonized but you can bet your feathers that Demogorgon wouldn't just lie down as the PCs steal his pearl. So thus it becomes either death for Demogorgon, via PCs, or Death for PCs...and thus we have a Demogorgon that's now a King of Demons. Zanan, It's only Gloating if you can't back it up. I'm sure Orcus can and the fact he's got a Huge /Gargantuan mini coming up in 4th edition tells me he's now the Top Demon around.
18DELTA 09-15-07, 05:17 PM	Well, ORCUS was the code word for 4th edition. Yep project ORCUS. Maybe this was the first phase of a multi-pronged assault on special k and her crones. Multiverse here comes ORCUS.:P
Nighttfall 09-15-07, 05:31 PM	DELTA, I can only hope that is the case. In any event, I want Orcus to rule the Abyss with large clawed fist and be the Demon Prince and Source of much undeadness! :p
Zanan 09-15-07, 06:20 PM	And here was me thinking they know what gloating means ... :rolleyes: BTW, rest of the world, in case you didn't know what may be grinning at you from the next MM (of a game actually called Dungeons & DRAGONS): Orcus is a massive, bloated demon prince - bloated on spite, bile, and contempt. Book of Vile Darkness, p. 137 He's the stand-up act personified for anything D&D and I can't see anything in that thing that makes his inclusion or mere existence oh so important. Most likely some incursion of his few followers into the upper ranks of WotC? Anyway, it would be off-topic to start something in Goatie in here.
Nighttfall 09-15-07, 08:08 PM	I could argue the point that Kiaranselee is very, very unimportant...but apparently then I'd have to point out the flaws in the FR cosmology, the flaws in the novels...the list is endless. So instead I'll just stand by my man Orcus as your goddess withers to nothing.
Red_Wizard 09-15-07, 09:40 PM	I fear no Red Wizard, Thayan or otherwise. Apparently you don't know enough Red Wizards, nor have you made the acquaintance of this one. I'll give you the customary five second head start to be sporting. ;)
Straploknight 09-15-07, 09:53 PM	Lol, If I know my Red Wizards Night, that sporting 5 second lead was just to get your hopes up only to see them dashed when you discovered your doom was sealed months ago, that 5 seconds is really just about the time it takes to consider that odd rash you got awhile back really wasn't from sloughing through the muck in Undermountain.
Nighttfall 09-15-07, 10:45 PM	Bah I've sworn my soul to Orcus. (Not to mention Kyuss, Dagon, Baphomet, and also a few other planar powers) Believe me being blown to bits won't bother me.
Green Elven Vampire 09-15-07, 11:10 PM	I feel lost! :confused:
18DELTA 09-15-07, 11:58 PM	DELTA, I can only hope that is the case. In any event, I want Orcus to rule the Abyss with large clawed fist and be the Demon Prince and Source of much undeadness! :p Chris Perkins blog #3. I tried to post a link, they just dont seem to work for me. My link-fu is weak right now.;) Blog #3, he talks about how ORCUS was the codeword for 4th edition. Then he starts to talk about he who shall not be named from the 9 hells. The pretender that was made a GOD yet does not deserve it. IT SHOULD BE THE BLOATED GOATHEAD IN ALL HIS UNDEAD GLORY!!!:D
Teh_username 09-16-07, 04:59 AM	Even though I guessed it from the events of the first novel, I just have to chime in and mention that the OP took a serious douchebag move in making this thread. It's not like much was left to question with the title chosen, and there is nothing in your post but a spoiler - you didn't have a question or want open things up for discussion, you just wanted to spoil a novel. ...that just came out. ...when a good chunk of the reader-base is too busy with classes to get through it immediately.
Red_Wizard 09-16-07, 08:39 AM	To be fair, the title hints, but doesn't say anything definitively on the matter. It could very well have been started on an assumption drawn from the tittle, in conjunction with the happenings of the previous novel, to which only you can be held accountable for clicking. Or, alternatively, it was a semi spoiler to those not capable of drawing the same conclusion, to which it did not say how, thus only added a suspenseful aspect to the read, rather than have it hit you out of nowhere. I understand time can be tight for getting leisure activities done, as I myself work all week, and am almost always detained with one thing or another on the weekends. This being said I have managed to read 4 books since that came out in what little time I have found, and also avoided this thread before I had finished the novel. So to be perfectly honest here, you spoiled it for yourself by clicking on the thread, and if you couldn't garner from the title, the description, the sample chapter, or at least put 1 and 1 together based on the outcome of the previous book, there is nothing anyone here could have said or done not to have spoiled it for you.
Nighttfall 09-16-07, 02:10 PM	Delta, I can live with who rules the Nine Hells. It's who rules the Abyss that I want to see and also be raised up to his greatness. And Orcus isn't bloated. He might be chubby but he's far, far from bloated.
Zanan 09-16-07, 04:27 PM	Delta, I can live with who rules the Nine Hells. It's who rules the Abyss that I want to see and also be raised up to his greatness. And Orcus isn't bloated. He might be chubby but he's far, far from bloated. Don't babble along, the canon stands! And unless I am mistaken, he is not even undead, so wise up on your chosen patron and soul-torturer! :D Yet, as I have said before, the Orcus thread is next door (i.e., you have to create one for yourself, of course). This one has nothing to do with the Goathead.
Nighttfall 09-16-07, 06:01 PM	He has enough qualities to equate him to being undead along with being able to still call upon the Last Word. I'll get my own Orcus thread later.
Teh_username 09-16-07, 06:22 PM	Power welled inside Kia's hands as she pointed them at the tanar'ri lord's face, "Any last words fiend?" "Yes actually." Orcus said, sitting up a bit more and cradling his skull-headed wand across his lap. "Just one actually. One final word. One Last Word..." "Plastics." This is Kiaransalee. She's a little worried about her future. (Sorry, first thing that came to mind. :D )
Nighttfall 09-16-07, 08:52 PM	Teh, Actually I was thinking more like "Bang!' for Orcus.
18DELTA 09-17-07, 12:10 AM	THE LAST WORD FTW. HOW MANY GODS DID THE ALMIGHTY ORCUS SMITE WITH IT.THAT WAS A GOOD ADVENTURE.:)
Crazygx34 09-18-07, 02:42 AM	He has enough qualities to equate him to being undead along with being able to still call upon the Last Word. I'll get my own Orcus thread later. I will visit your post Nighttfall! :) You will at least have one read! But I warn you I prefer Demogorgon and Graz'zt he is second. Orcus it the third in the Abyss. ;) But seriously you should make a thread of him I really want to know how he is dead , he is really dead:confused:
Red_Wizard 09-18-07, 09:16 AM	At the bottom of the issue they should have stated in bold letters for all concerned "Warning: No demon princes were harmed in the making of this module" . It would have saved a great deal of time on everyones part disbanding the rumors arisen around the illustrious final issue. As for who is the best, the answer is Demogorgon hands down. Not only did he crawl up out of the Abyssal ocean into gaping maw as a deformed thing cast aside, but he assumed the title of demon prince over an Obyrith who was son to the Queen of Chaos. Now look at the credentials of all the others, and you'll see shoddy track records from each and every one of them. Orcus: Pimped slapped by a mortal. Grazzt: Pimped slapped by a mortal. Pazuzu: Cool, but hides in the skies. the list of disappointments goes on and on. Demo took power, and kept power, even in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds via Epic PC's and a combined frontal assault of several demon lords.
Lord Karsus 09-18-07, 10:44 AM	-I prefer Jubilex, actually.
ripvanwormer 09-18-07, 01:12 PM	"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die." ~Abdul Alhazred, The Necronomicon.
JossVladd 09-18-07, 03:55 PM	Shar should just adopt the Drow, I think they would take to her worship without much provocation, then the drow and the shades could make all the little races that live under the sun miserable. hehe,
Lord Karsus 09-18-07, 04:27 PM	Shar should just adopt the Drow, I think they would take to her worship without much provocation, then the drow and the shades could make all the little races that live under the sun miserable. hehe, -The Drow already have multiple patrons, none of whom I believe would willingly "let the go".
msatran 09-18-07, 05:02 PM	Well, I don't prefer Jubilex...I prefer... (This was posted on Paizo a couple days ago. I am realmsifying it for here.) Obox-Ob Cultist (With Apologies to Larry Groce) You know I love to be a hero, I never refuse a quest. And when my party saved the King from a demon He said I was the best My best friends are a Paladin/Cleric And his brother, the Holy Priest And the rest of my party trusts me To take them wherever we can To fight all manner of evil beasts Oh, yes, they do…. Oh, but at night I sneak down to the basement And I make sure the steps don’t creak And I open the secret panel By tracing the dead Vrock’s beak I slide open the secret door quickly As I reach out to turn the knob…. Then I pull out my twice-curved dagger, And I worship Obox-Ob! Yeah, in the daytime, I’m Mr. Righteous As goody-twoshoes as I can be, But at night I’m an Obox-Ob cultist May the gods have pity on me… Well you know that you can find me On my knees in sacred prayer With my hands on my knees before Illmater And my head tilted in the air… And swearing to strike dishonor In a manner just and fair And when I raise my sword On high for justice It’s too beautiful to bear… Oh, yeah… Oh, but when the doomed clock strikes darkest And I find myself alone I slide out my hidden key That I made from a Deva’s finger bone And I open up my path to the temple In the sewers filled with slime And bathe in the glorious madness Of the vermin in my shrine! Yeah, in the daytime, I’m Mr. Righteous As goody-twoshoes as I can be, But at night I’m an Obox-Ob cultist May the gods have pity on me… My friends among the homeless They all think I’m pretty straight Because they know nothing crawls nearby When I walk past their sewer grate I’m a friend to the common man I’ll grant the helpless any boon And I’ll share my meals with anyone Who comes to my house in the afternoon Yes I do… Oh, But gentles, lately I have been noticed With a crown that’s made of rats Gibbering at the door to the temple And pointing at the funny priest hats I’m afraid one day they’ll find me With a toad substituted for my brain Because I serve the lord of madness And I’m really not insane… Yeah, in the daytime, I’m Mr. Righteous As goody-twoshoes as I can be, But at night I’m an Obox-Ob cultist May the gods have pity on me…
JossVladd 09-18-07, 05:45 PM	I know that neither Lolth or her daughter would let go of the drow, but if one destroys the other who do the good or evil drow turn to? If Lolth dies I can see Shar being a viable religion for the left over spiderkissers.
Lord Karsus 09-18-07, 06:44 PM	I know that neither Lolth or her daughter would let go of the drow, but if one destroys the other who do the good or evil drow turn to? If Lolth dies I can see Shar being a viable religion for the left over spiderkissers. -The problem with that is that Lolth isn't dying. According to AGHotR, in 1379, she attempts to destroy Ghaunadaur, but fails (go Ghaunadaur!). That illustrates that she is alive and kicking. This is he last mention of Lolth in the book, so until something mentions her death, she is still around. -As for other patrons, I could see Shar trying to embrace the Drow, but as their culture and society is so tied to Lolth, I see the Drow as not embracing her.
SmartPaladin 09-18-07, 07:03 PM	I could see Hoar and Ghaunadaur squabbling over house-less rogues. Hoar whispering sweet vengeance in their ears, Ghaunadaur going "Stop that! Mine! All mine! My outcasts!" :P
Lord Karsus 09-18-07, 07:20 PM	-SP is a Hoar *****...
JossVladd 09-18-07, 09:30 PM	I dont want this to happen, but someone should win the Sava game, whomever does gets the Drow, and the other dies. If Lolth dies... A lot of lonely spiderkissers that I can't see wanting to go up and dance in Eil....'s moonlight. That's where my whole Shar thing came from. Sorry not trying to sound angry just discussing not yelling.
SmartPaladin 09-18-07, 10:14 PM	I dont want this to happen, but someone should win the Sava game, whomever does gets the Drow, and the other dies. If Lolth dies... A lot of lonely spiderkissers that I can't see wanting to go up and dance in Eil....'s moonlight. That's where my whole Shar thing came from. Sorry not trying to sound angry just discussing not yelling. I never thought you were yelling. Hells, I'm still tooting my Hoar horn. :P -SP is a Hoar *****... Was there ever any doubt? I could have called myself Paladin of Hoar, but I thought it'd have been more funny to call myself a Smart Paladin. Seeing as how stereotypically most Paladins tend to be stupid sticks in the mud. Unable to balance their Paladin code with a sense of humor. Like when your asked a rather stupid question, you could ask if they want the truth, or should you lie. And if they pick lie, then you could lie to their face, because everyone knew your lying, and only a real stiff of a DM would make you fall when everyone already knew, and depending on the lie could be laughing. :P Life is short, so joke, laugh, and enjoy yourself. The only time a Paladin should take himself seriously, is during serious matters. Like dungeon crawling. The rest of the time? Joke around with the Rogue and Bard, their risking life and limb just like you.
JossVladd 09-18-07, 10:31 PM	I guess you really are a smart Paladin, lol.
SmartPaladin 09-18-07, 10:55 PM	I guess you really are a smart Paladin, lol. It really comes down to a matter of option. If someone thinks I'm smart, then I am. If others think I'm a fool, then I am. I won't tell anyone what to think. :)
Zanan 09-19-07, 04:14 AM	Shar is IMHO one of the least logical deities the drow would chose. They plan for the future and their own grandeur, not nihilism. The more I read of Sharrans in the novels these days, the less I like their outlook. Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised that the sava games ends all square, as the Spellplague will shatter the table and leave both deities with what they got up to that date.
Red_Wizard 09-19-07, 09:31 AM	I had considered something along those lines myself Zanan. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out in the final installment.
Lord Karsus 09-19-07, 09:44 AM	I had considered something along those lines myself Zanan. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out in the final installment. -AGHotR doesn't mention that either one of them dies, up until 1385, anyway. The only thing new it mentions is that: -Lolth tries to eliminate Ghaundaur, but the Elder Elemental deity proves stronger than Lolth (Go Ghaunadaur!), causing Lolth to abandon her plan. The Elder Eye then leaves its domain in the Spiderweb Pits for good.
Zanan 09-19-07, 10:18 AM	Your quote has flaws, Lord Karsus, and you know that. Still time to correct it though.
Lord Karsus 09-19-07, 11:27 AM	Your quote has flaws, Lord Karsus, and you know that. Still time to correct it though. -Lolth not being able to subsume Ghaundaur shows me that the Elder Eye is not as weak as everyone has thought him. That Lolth is unable to absorb it shows that it is actually stronger than she.
Red_Wizard 09-19-07, 11:39 AM	I wasn't suggesting anyone dieing just for the record, so the quote was a tad out of place. ;) I was merely saying that the likelihood of the spellplague, or a similar event ruining the game, would go a long way to explaining how both goddesses emerge victorious.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-19-07, 02:40 PM	-Lolth not being able to subsume Ghaundaur shows me that the Elder Eye is not as weak as everyone has thought him. That Lolth is unable to absorb it shows that it is actually stronger than she. I'm just happy to see a deicidal plan fail for once, but that's just me.
Lord Karsus 09-19-07, 02:49 PM	I'm just happy to see a deicidal plan fail for once, but that's just me. -They do fail, from time to time. I would know...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-19-07, 03:16 PM	-They do fail, from time to time. I would know... HA!
Lord Karsus 09-19-07, 05:45 PM	-My lady, I would also like it to be known that I also had everyone's best interests in mind when I did what I did, unlike, say, Lolth. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-19-07, 06:40 PM	-My lady, I would also like it to be known that I also had everyone's best interests in mind when I did what I did, unlike, say, Lolth. ;) Don't worry, I believe you...;)
Zanan 09-23-07, 03:06 PM	-Lolth not being able to subsume Ghaundaur shows me that the Elder Eye is not as weak as everyone has thought him. That Lolth is unable to absorb it shows that it is actually stronger than she. A tactical retreat does not prove overall strength. Then again, we have no clue what he actually did ... and e.g. if Masks sneaks about in Shar's shadow (as he does) and she fails to get him does not prove that Mask is more powerful than Shar either.
Lord Karsus 09-23-07, 07:58 PM	A tactical retreat does not prove overall strength. Then again, we have no clue what he actually did ... and e.g. if Masks sneaks about in Shar's shadow (as he does) and she fails to get him does not prove that Mask is more powerful than Shar either. -Shar doesn't/didn't actively try to subsume Mask, however. Lolth did, and failed. Why retreat if victory is easily obtainable?
Zanan 09-24-07, 04:43 AM	-Shar doesn't/didn't actively try to subsume Mask, however. Lolth did, and failed. Why retreat if victory is easily obtainable? As I said before, we have at this time no clue what actually happens, so simply stating that a lesser god is more powerful than a greater god is quite ludicrous. If it makes you feel better - i.e. getting one over Lolth - so be it. Shar is not looking after Mask? Are you sure?
Lord Karsus 09-24-07, 06:22 PM	Shar is not looking after Mask? Are you sure? -Please, Zanan, enlighten me. When was the last time Shar tried to absorb mask?
Zanan 09-24-07, 07:22 PM	-Please, Zanan, enlighten me. When was the last time Shar tried to absorb mask? Lord Karsus ... mine was a rhethorical question. Look at what Shar is after and you know that it is not just Mask's scalp she is looking for.
Lord Karsus 09-24-07, 11:25 PM	Lord Karsus ... mine was a rhethorical question. Look at what Shar is after and you know that it is not just Mask's scalp she is looking for. -Read what I wrote. Shar hasn't in recent past, nor has she in the recent present, actively tried to subsume Mask. Her future goals? Probably, but I did not bring up her future goals. Lolth, on the other hand, did try to subsume Ghaunadaur.
Zanan 09-25-07, 04:23 AM	-Read what I wrote. Shar hasn't in recent past, nor has she in the recent present, actively tried to subsume Mask. Her future goals? Probably, but I did not bring up her future goals. Lolth, on the other hand, did try to subsume Ghaunadaur. F&P p. 58 more or less points out what Shar wants to do with Mask and to assume that she never tried is ... an option. And, BTW, so far, we do not know what Lolth WILL do with Ghaunadaur, so please refrain from speaking about that event in the past tense OR as if you would know. ;)
Todesherr 09-25-07, 04:31 AM	F&P p. 58 more or less points out what Shar wants to do with Mask and to assume that she never tried is ... an option. And, BTW, so far, we do not know what Lolth WILL do with Ghaunadaur, so please refrain from speaking about that event in the past tense OR as if you would know. ;) Es leben Weisswurst und suesser Senf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Zanan 09-25-07, 04:42 AM	Es leben Weisswurst und suesser Senf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please ... that is Bavarian, i.e. not exactly German ... and do note that the WizO's do not like if someone writes in a language that not everyone understands hereabouts. ;)
Aldareth 09-25-07, 06:39 AM	Please ... that is Bavarian, i.e. not exactly German ... and do note that the WizO's do not like if someone writes in a language that not everyone understands hereabouts. ;) thats right Bavarians are not Germans :D saupreißn greißliche!:D )
Todesherr 09-25-07, 07:13 AM	thats right Bavarians are not Germans :D saupreißn greißliche!:D ) Sorry gents, just difficult for me to control my enthusiam for the German language. I haven't met or seen or talked to a German in over a year (15 months) and I am pretty depressed over it...:weep: Alles Mist, Scheisse...
MarkusTay63 09-25-07, 02:08 PM	Well, I'm out of the loop, everything I know about German language and culture I learned from Hogan's Heroes. :D
Lord Karsus 09-25-07, 03:18 PM	And, BTW, so far, we do not know what Lolth WILL do with Ghaunadaur, so please refrain from speaking about that event in the past tense OR as if you would know. ;) -I've seen the future, and man oh man...:nonono:
Zanan 09-25-07, 06:55 PM	-I've seen the future, and man oh man...:nonono: This -> :nonono: <- refers to the Spellplague? :D
Lord Karsus 09-26-07, 09:30 AM	This -> :nonono: <- refers to the Spellplague? :D -It refers to a whole lot of things that will be happening that I do not approve of.
ywhtptgtfo 09-26-07, 05:02 PM	Don't worry, there's still a slim possibility that Karsus will be installed as Mystra #4. Myssus would be a suitable new name for that purpose.
Lord Karsus 09-26-07, 05:50 PM	Don't worry, there's still a slim possibility that Karsus will be installed as Mystra #4. Myssus would be a suitable new name for that purpose. -No, no, and no. I don't wanna do it, and you can't force me!
Zandilar 09-26-07, 06:29 PM	Heya, -No, no, and no. I don't wanna do it, and you can't force me! Yeah, I can see why you'd not want to do it. In all likelihood you'd be killed in the event of 5e. :P I wouldn't want to be a Mystra for anything!
SgtAnjay 09-26-07, 08:16 PM	Technically speaking, wasn't Karsus a Mystra, of a sort, for a split second there?
Lord Karsus 09-26-07, 11:37 PM	Technically speaking, wasn't Karsus a Mystra, of a sort, for a split second there? -Eh, not exactly. I was a deity of Magic, but I was not Mystra/Mystryl. Yeah, I can see why you'd not want to do it. In all likelihood you'd be killed in the event of 5e. :P I wouldn't want to be a Mystra for anything! -I know, seriously. That, and it would be totally lame.
ywhtptgtfo 09-27-07, 06:10 AM	-Eh, not exactly. I was a deity of Magic, but I was not Mystra/Mystryl. Lord of Darkness said you merged with Mystryl before you died. In a sense, you were Mystryl's Yor'thae and perhaps she purposely allowed you to cast that spell so that you could one day take her place...
MarkusTay63 09-27-07, 01:51 PM	you were Mystryl's Yor'thae...:rofl: I guessed that's better then what I called him - Shar's buttplug. :D So, would that make him Mytryl 1.5, or Mystra 1.5? :confused: Maybe this thread should just die at this point, just like it's subject. ;)
SgtAnjay 09-27-07, 02:01 PM	:rofl: I guessed that's better then what I called him - Shar's buttplug. :D So, would that make him Mytryl 1.5, or Mystra 1.5? :confused: Maybe this thread should just die at this point, just like it's subject. ;) Mytryl? Wasn't she the precursor to Mysra? And if he was merged with Mystryl, it makes it debatable whether he was Mystryl 1.5 or Mystra beta....
MarkusTay63 09-27-07, 02:16 PM	No, Mysra was Midnight's mortal little sister, whom she sponsored to become a demi-god soon after her own ascension. So little is known about her, though... ;)
Lord Karsus 09-27-07, 02:59 PM	In a sense, you were Mystryl's Yor'thae... -As long as I weren't her *****... I guessed that's better then what I called him - Shar's buttplug. :D -Shar doesn't look like a man, however. There are pluses and minuses.
Kiaransalee 10-03-07, 01:13 AM	SPOILERS NEXT...
Kiaransalee 10-03-07, 01:16 AM	Both Lolth and Eilistraee survive. Lolth tries to destroy Ghaunadaur et take his divine power but fails. Ghaunadaur is an Elder Evil, much more powerful than Lolth had thought... Ghaunadaur just moves his divine realm to the Deep Caverns, so he is officially no longer part of the drow pantheon.
Lord Karsus 10-03-07, 12:53 PM	-Been there, done that. -Kiaransalee, I see that you're not as dead in Realmspace as we once believed?
captaincarot 10-03-07, 01:32 PM	Heya, Yeah, I can see why you'd not want to do it. In all likelihood you'd be killed in the event of 5e. :P I wouldn't want to be a Mystra for anything! especially not if it meant i'd only have 5 years or so left to exist!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-03-07, 02:11 PM	Both Lolth and Eilistraee survive. We don't know that. Remember that the GHotR timeline is selective, and was specifically designed not to spoil the outcomes for upcoming products (with the exception of the much talked about Spellplague teasers). Lolth or Eilistraee might very well die, it's just that such a death was left off the timeline on purpose.
ywhtptgtfo 10-03-07, 11:50 PM	Both Lolth and Eilistraee survive. Lolth tries to destroy Ghaunadaur et take his divine power but fails. Ghaunadaur is an Elder Evil, much more powerful than Lolth had thought... Ghaunadaur just moves his divine realm to the Deep Caverns, so he is officially no longer part of the drow pantheon. Yup. He's probably going to be instrumental to the Aboleth uprising.
Zanan 10-04-07, 04:04 AM	Kiaransalee ... please keep in mind that people may not have read Storm of the Dead or that bit of info in the Grand History as yet. as in: use the spoiler tags. ;) Going by canon lore ... - a deity that appears in various settings, with possibly linked cosmologies, do not die or fade when they are "slain" in one setting. So while one drow deity could be killed (or rather two, as described in LP I), this latter one is not exactly dead as Kiaransali in the Core Setting. So there is actually a chance to revive her cult through the much mentioned planar warriors called the Banshee Knights. - Since 3E, the FR cosmology has more or less been bottled-in though. That is, it has been closed-off from other settings or cosmologies. Hence, Lolth rules her own plane - a direct opposite of Arvandor. Kia's realm was placed in there and probably still is. I doubt that the Dark Mother will allow anyone to take it over either and we actually do not know whether there is any Kia-spawn running about or any aspirants living in that realm. Then again, if you want to follow the written lore, you have to wait till LP III to see what actually happens with the drow and their pantheon. NB: Kiaransalee, I hope you are a female and thus at least partially warrant your quite blasphemous name.
Kiaransalee 10-04-07, 08:51 AM	Sorry for the spoiler... I think you're right about Kiaransali in the Core setting, and I like the idea of the Banshee Knights bringing her back to divine unlife. PS: I'm a guy, but I think the White Banshee was one of the most interesting drow deities, with Vhaeraun, as opposed to the so-boring Ghaunadaur & Selvetarm.
Zanan 10-04-07, 10:10 AM	Sorry for the spoiler... I think you're right about Kiaransali in the Core setting, and I like the idea of the Banshee Knights bringing her back to divine unlife. PS: I'm a guy, but I think the White Banshee was one of the most interesting drow deities, with Vhaeraun, as opposed to the so-boring Ghaunadaur & Selvetarm. Well, matter of fact, I wouldn't mind a different drow deity with the same portfolios, e.g. made up from one of the more powerful Banshee Knights but a less beyond-FR background and a good agenda.
Kiaransalee 10-04-07, 01:39 PM	What class should a Banshee Knight be ? In 2nd Ed. they were "crusaders", but should they still be 3.5Ed "crusaders" as presented in Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords ? And should they be living or unliving ?
Zanan 10-04-07, 03:52 PM	What class should a Banshee Knight be ? In 2nd Ed. they were "crusaders", but should they still be 3.5Ed "crusaders" as presented in Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords ? And should they be living or unliving ? Most definitely not! The Banshee Knights are planar explorers and hunters of "everything Orcus", so that (IMHO) strange class doesn't match up at all. They are more the typical Ftr/Clr/Blackguard or Paladin of Slaughter (Unearthed Arcana) / Clr sort of lasses. Not much thought spend on them ... well apart from the PrC I designed :D http://www.dnd-gate.de/gate3/page/index.php?id=373 (Though it's still 3E, I just noted.)
Kiaransalee 10-04-07, 07:10 PM	Thanks for the advice, and that Prestige class rocks ! May I use it eventually or do you have copyrights ? :P
Zanan 10-05-07, 04:05 AM	Thanks for the advice, and that Prestige class rocks ! May I use it eventually or do you have copyrights ? :P IT'S MINE! MY TREASURE! :D ... yes it is copyrighted, but that would only be a concern if you try to use it for your own publications et al, i.e. making money from my brainchild. So feel free to use it in a game session et al.
GothicDan 10-05-07, 10:01 AM	Greedy Dark Elves. ;)