Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Todesherr 11-19-07, 05:21 PM	Is it true? 4ed. FR DR 1485?! Linky?!
elondir 11-19-07, 05:27 PM	Only speculation. A Grand History of the Realms goes up to 1385 where it says soem stuff about the end of the old world and the beginning of the new. The Orc King takes place in 1485 as well, and there's a bunch of nasty stuff mentioned like Aboleth kingdoms and stuff like that.
Stigger 11-19-07, 07:20 PM	Nothing but speculation at this point, but incorporating the supposed 4e Magic Traditions tend to make me of the opinion that its going to be a 100 year leap, simply to give them enough time to actually form in a vaguely plausive timespan... it would make the most sense to me, but I'm not aware of anything official one way or another.
MerrikCale 11-19-07, 10:18 PM	The Orc King takes place in 1485 as well, why do you say that? The Orc King indicates the prologue takes place around a hundred years of Obould starts his Kingdom, which I believe was in 1372. Therefore, it takes place around 1472.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-20-07, 10:10 AM	why do you say that? The Orc King indicates the prologue takes place around a hundred years of Obould starts his Kingdom, which I believe was in 1372. Therefore, it takes place around 1472. Correct, and that's just the prologue (and epilogue). The bulk of the novel takes place in 1372.
Lord Karsus 11-20-07, 12:50 PM	The bulk of the novel takes place in 1372. -Woo hoo...RAS is finally almost up to the current canon timeline.
Stigger 11-20-07, 12:58 PM	Right... like he's actually gonna make it by the time the 4e leap comes into play... I think not...
Lord Karsus 11-20-07, 01:08 PM	Right... like he's actually gonna make it by the time the 4e leap comes into play... I think not... -Slowly chugging along.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-20-07, 01:40 PM	Only three years behind!
18DELTA 11-20-07, 05:07 PM	Choo-choo!!! I think I can, I think I can, choo-choo!!!:D
MerrikCale 11-20-07, 10:06 PM	-Woo hoo...RAS is finally almost up to the current canon timeline. thats better than a hundred years ahead.....oops
Green Elven Vampire 11-20-07, 11:15 PM	A hundred years in the future is just a moronic joke!! Kiss your human PC's good bye! And most NPC's will be too old to be of any use. Die 4ED DIE!!! All the hype about Shade Enclave and the Shadovar and the Shadow Weave was just a big waste of our money and time apparently. Remember the hype? "The realms will be changed forever with the return of the Archwizards!" Well, that was all just a lie. 4ED is a complete joke, and the absolute worst edition to date.
Lord Karsus 11-20-07, 11:26 PM	All the hype about Shade Enclave and the Shadovar and the Shadow Weave was just a big waste of our money and time apparently. Remember the hype? "The realms will be changed forever with the return of the Archwizards!" Well, that was all just a lie. -In a roundabout way, it's all true. 4ED is a complete joke, and the absolute worst edition to date. -Let's not get ahead of ourselves, now. We should at least wait until it comes out before we label it the "worst edition to date".
Stigger 11-21-07, 02:32 AM	Erm, I somehow doubt Mr Die 4ed Die!!! is really gonna listen LK... though I tend to agree that its certainly shaping up to look the way he's portraying it...
Green Elven Vampire 11-21-07, 11:51 AM	Erm, I somehow doubt Mr Die 4ed Die!!! is really gonna listen LK... though I tend to agree that its certainly shaping up to look the way he's portraying it... Mr. Die 4ED DIE! sounds catchy. Maybe I'll change my sign in name to that for the next year, lol. Look, I know I can be harsh sometimes about the new edition, but the changes are even much more dramatic than "The Avatar" debacle. It's like being a profession Chef (which I am) and going through 4 years of Culinary College only to find out that regular short order cooks have the same prestige and rate of pay as a professional in a 5 star hotel or resort. Maybe that's not the best example, but you get the jist.
Stigger 11-21-07, 12:11 PM	Heh, I tend to agree with you actually. I find it really funny though, a tiny bit scary on the militant side at times, but that's half the fun. ;)
MarkusTay63 11-21-07, 04:49 PM	-Woo hoo...RAS is finally almost up to the current canon timeline.EXACTLY why I think they needed to give him another hundred years. Both he and Ed are planning on writing in "the past", which will only be the past in the new setting. Now they have an extra century to 'muck-around in'. Personally, I prefer novels written in the past, rather then future. I truly HATE when the authors tell me whats going to happen IMG. What has gone before is wonderful - it fleshes out a lot of the world and helps me develop my own plots, but predicting the future is so counter-productive to a gaming environment. But thats just me. :rolleyes:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-21-07, 06:16 PM	Personally, I prefer novels written in the past, rather then future. I truly HATE when the authors tell me whats going to happen IMG. What has gone before is wonderful - it fleshes out a lot of the world and helps me develop my own plots, but predicting the future is so counter-productive to a gaming environment. But thats just me. :rolleyes: It's not just you. I can understand WotC moving the official setting forward for business reasons, but that's about it. The setting is there for each person to develop to their own tastes.
selunatic2397 11-21-07, 06:21 PM	Did WotC ever give a reason for how the novels HAD to be canon? :confused: It appears to me that all this trouble could have been avoided by simply making the novels...novels and ignoring the whole mess like they seemed to have done with eberon. :thinks:
Iakhovas 11-21-07, 08:30 PM	Because many of us feel that reading a non-canon novel is a waste of time. I for one *want* the novels to impact the world. Otherwise why bother.
johnkretzer 11-21-07, 11:38 PM	Because many of us feel that reading a non-canon novel is a waste of time. I for one *want* the novels to impact the world. Otherwise why bother. Do you only read historical books? Or watch only historical movies? Because only they have a impact on the world. And by 'many' can you give me a actualy number? Or is this just a assumption that because you do something everybody(or a majority of people) do it? Personalky I have stopped reading the novels for a couple of reasons. 1) The fact they are 'canon' and take the fun out of the RPG aspect most of the time. 2) The novels just aren't as good anymore...I perfer smaller more human stories to the epic grandstanding crap they have writen for the most part.
Stigger 11-22-07, 12:27 AM	Personally, I don't read them because I generally don't like a lot of the authors take on the Realms, with a couple of exceptions. Generally (note that word) I find them to be very off from my perceptions and notions of how the Realms should be, and seem a little too 'Earth-like' (for lack of a better word) for my tastes. I'd love to see them made non-canon in all honesty, as it meshes with my idea that the DM is the one who decides what's canon and what isn't a bit better. Mind you, I can see both sides to it, but that would be my preference.
Lord Karsus 11-22-07, 01:46 AM	Because many of us feel that reading a non-canon novel is a waste of time. I for one *want* the novels to impact the world. Otherwise why bother. -Agreed 100%. -I know that if I played in Eberron, I'd be angry that the novels aren't canon, and don't mean anything. I mean, "What's the point"? That FR novels are canon, and change things reflects that fact that the setting is "alive".
johnkretzer 11-22-07, 03:18 AM	-Agreed 100%. -I know that if I played in Eberron, I'd be angry that the novels aren't canon, and don't mean anything. I mean, "What's the point"? That FR novels are canon, and change things reflects that fact that the setting is "alive". non-canon novels can give you a window into the world culture, etc. Also there is nothing stopping you from making the novels canon in your Realms. Also I disagree on the novels making a setting feels alive to me it does the opposite.
msatran 11-22-07, 03:32 AM	What makes a setting "Alive" is it's PC's, not it's NPCs. The more PC's you have in the world, the more alive the setting becomes. The game becomes less fun when NPC's are dealing with world dominating plots every five minutes, and the PC's are second stringers.
Lord Karsus 11-22-07, 03:51 AM	non-canon novels can give you a window into the world culture, etc. Also there is nothing stopping you from making the novels canon in your Realms. -But, the novels are non-canon, meaning that the cultures are non-canon as well. A non-canon novel can have Red Wizards portrayed as the Red Wizards we all have come to know, or something completely different. What makes a setting "Alive" is it's PC's, not it's NPCs. The more PC's you have in the world, the more alive the setting becomes. The game becomes less fun when NPC's are dealing with world dominating plots every five minutes, and the PC's are second stringers. -PCs are only relevent in our indivdual campaigns. I have no clue who your PCs are. They mean little to me. NPCs, however, bring us all together. -Having NPCs that fic everyone's problems isn't the campaign's fault. That's the DM's fault.
johnkretzer 11-22-07, 04:08 AM	-But, the novels are non-canon, meaning that the cultures are non-canon as well. A non-canon novel can have Red Wizards portrayed as the Red Wizards we all have come to know, or something completely different. Actualy that isn't true. Take a look at fiction based on the real world. Just because those events don't happen doesn't mean the infomation about our world is inaccurate.
Lord Karsus 11-22-07, 04:10 AM	Actualy that isn't true. Take a look at fiction based on the real world. Just because those events don't happen doesn't mean the infomation about our world is inaccurate. -Well, take a look at something like Harry Potter. It's based on the real world. Is the majority of the information in that storyline accurate? -Either you're going to get something that is, or something that isn't.
johnkretzer 11-22-07, 04:48 AM	-Well, take a look at something like Harry Potter. It's based on the real world. Is the majority of the information in that storyline accurate? -Either you're going to get something that is, or something that isn't. Actualy I don't read those books...so I can't judge them...but I'll ask you this ignoring the fact the Harry Potter is a wizard...how well does his family capture the average middle class British family? From the movies they look close. I guess what I am trying to say is that the background can be canon but the events don't have to be to make the story entertaining.
Lord Karsus 11-22-07, 04:53 AM	Actualy I don't read those books...so I can't judge them...but I'll ask you this ignoring the fact the Harry Potter is a wizard...how well does his family capture the average middle class British family? From the movies they look close. -Never read them either. Never been to Great Britain, either. But, something is telling me that the average Brittish family doesn't having homing owls, or whatever those things were. Mail owls. Something to that effect. :P
Stigger 11-22-07, 12:01 PM	-Well, take a look at something like Harry Potter. It's based on the real world. Is the majority of the information in that storyline accurate? -Either you're going to get something that is, or something that isn't. I thought the series was very accurate, and internally consistent with itself, and fairly close to the RW with some obvious liberties taken, but even those generally were consistent... wouldn't go that far with the movies, but as far as the books were concerned it pretty much stayed within its own established canon, and when it didn't, it explained why there was an exception. Generally anyway, there were probably a few errors along the way that I missed.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-22-07, 03:54 PM	Because many of us feel that reading a non-canon novel is a waste of time. I for one *want* the novels to impact the world. Otherwise why bother. What happened to reading a book for the purpose of enjoying a good story?
Stigger 11-22-07, 04:27 PM	Nah, can't do something silly like reading for enjoyment... silly Rino. ;) :D
MerrikCale 11-23-07, 09:21 AM	What happened to reading a book for the purpose of enjoying a good story? I think Iakhovas right to a degree. When dealing with a shared world, thats the point. Its shared and everything authors/game designers do effects everyone else. Thats part of the appeal. Having said that, Marvel and DC comics have two of the biggest "shared worlds" going. And some of their biggest books nowadays are those that take place outside of those parameters.
Fingoldfin 11-24-07, 01:18 AM	I don't think the novels should be canon because Realms authors don't seem to have any self control. Every other novel now is some ridiculous, over the top, nonsensical cluster**** that reshapes the world. Realms trilogies now have multiple RSEs. One disaster isn't enough any more. Why kill one god in your novel when you can kill three? Why have one army attack when you can make 4 armies attack? Let me get this straight. An army of Fey'ri makes a deal with the Zhents, Hillsfar, surface drow, Sembia, and a Demon Lord. He's not just any Demon Lord. He is also an Arch-devil that can command Tanar'ri, Baaetzu, and Yugoloths? Are there any evil creatures left on Toril or in the planes that have not joined the crusade to kill your NPCs? Leave out a few villains that you can use in the next book.:rolleyes:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-24-07, 06:42 PM	I think Iakhovas right to a degree. When dealing with a shared world, thats the point. Its shared and everything authors/game designers do effects everyone else. Thats part of the appeal. Very true. But I still don't agree that novels have to be canon or else "there's no point to reading them". As someone who enjoys fantasy stories--and particularly stories set in the Realms--I think that's a pretty...bleak way of looking at things, especially coming from Brian R. James. Besides, you could use that line of thought to say reading Elaine Cunningham's "fairy/morality tale" story in her recent anthology is pointless since the story is a fable and probably never took place. Just an example.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-24-07, 06:44 PM	I don't think the novels should be canon because Realms authors don't seem to have any self control. Every other novel now is some ridiculous, over the top, nonsensical cluster**** that reshapes the world. Well, that's something I can agree with.;)
Stigger 11-25-07, 11:34 AM	So can I...
selunatic2397 11-25-07, 06:39 PM	Me Three!
msatran 12-03-07, 05:03 AM	Me Four. (upgraded to every edition so far, still probably won't do it for this one.)
johnkretzer 12-04-07, 11:13 PM	Me five....
MarkusTay63 12-04-07, 11:35 PM	Me six... The Thieves World series of novels is an excellent example of what happens when authors in a shared world start trying to 'trump' on another. The first few books in that series were wonderful, but then 'mega-plots' started to move in, and one author would kill-off another author's favorite 2nd tier charcter, and then the other author would turn around and bring him back in some obscure and unbelievable way (it was reading like a soap opera by book six). Then the authors took their characters 'outside' the city and explored the world (individually, not staying within the parameters of the shared world), so that we ended up with disparate and incompatible lore. First the city was invaded... then it was invaded by something worse, and eventually by something even worse... And guess what? One author wrote that HIS charcter was really the offspring of a god. By the next novel, ALL the main charracters turned out to be god-children. Every character had some sort of huge 'destiny' and WSE taking shape. It was beyond plausability, grown men and women writing about gods as if they were just like people... can you imagine? Sounds familiar, right? Game designers and fantasy authors are like Rock bands - they can create something wonderful for a short while, but then they start looking at each other's 'stuff' and the jealousy begins. They can deny it all the want, but we have the novels to prove it. They all want to be David Lee Roths... :rolleyes: And if I remember correctly, that dude ego'ed himself right out of a job. :cool:
18DELTA 12-05-07, 01:35 AM	Me six... The Thieves World series of novels is an excellent example of what happens when authors in a shared world start trying to 'trump' on another. The first few books in that series were wonderful, but then 'mega-plots' started to move in, and one author would kill-off another author's favorite 2nd tier charcter, and then the other author would turn around and bring him back in some obscure and unbelievable way (it was reading like a soap opera by book six). Then the authors took their characters 'outside' the city and explored the world (individually, not staying within the parameters of the shared world), so that we ended up with disparate and incompatible lore. First the city was invaded... then it was invaded by something worse, and eventually by something even worse... And guess what? One author wrote that HIS charcter was really the offspring of a god. By the next novel, ALL the main charracters turned out to be god-children. Every character had some sort of huge 'destiny' and WSE taking shape. It was beyond plausability, grown men and women writing about gods as if they were just like people... can you imagine? Sounds familiar, right? Game designers and fantasy authors are like Rock bands - they can create something wonderful for a short while, but then they start looking at each other's 'stuff' and the jealousy begins. They can deny it all the want, but we have the novels to prove it. They all want to be David Lee Roths... :rolleyes: And if I remember correctly, that dude ego'ed himself right out of a job. :cool: QFT!:)
Stigger 12-05-07, 01:56 AM	David Lee Roth > Sammy Whatsit :P
Reneshat 12-05-07, 02:19 AM	David Lee Roth > Sammy Whatsit :P You better not mention that if you are ever in St. Louis, they worship Sammy Hagar here. I kid you not. He actually sells out shows, and people look forward to the next "big Sammy Hagar show." :banghead:
Lord Karsus 12-05-07, 02:25 AM	You better not mention that if you are ever in St. Louis, they worship Sammy Hagar here. I kid you not. He actually sells out shows, and people look forward to the next "big Sammy Hagar show." :banghead: -Only in St. Loius, ladies and gents...:rolleyes:
Stigger 12-05-07, 07:03 AM	Just for that I'm getting a "David Lee Roth is Ghod" T-shirt and wearing it next time I go to St. Louis... :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-05-07, 12:04 PM	And guess what? One author wrote that HIS charcter was really the offspring of a god. By the next novel, ALL the main charracters turned out to be god-children. Every character had some sort of huge 'destiny' and WSE taking shape. It was beyond plausability, grown men and women writing about gods as if they were just like people... can you imagine? Yuck! Sounds to me like it became a battle of author stand-ins...and all at the reader's expense.
'Arry 12-05-07, 12:15 PM	-Never read them either. Never been to Great Britain, either. But, something is telling me that the average Brittish family doesn't having homing owls, or whatever those things were. Mail owls. Something to that effect. :P No Mail owls I'm afraid. Pity we don't though, we wouldn't have to put up with Royal Mail. Scarily I know various people like the Dursleys!
'Arry 12-05-07, 12:18 PM	In my opinion, and it's only opinion, the FR novels are cannon because WotC make more money from them than they do from FR RPG materials.
MerrikCale 12-05-07, 02:52 PM	David Lee Roth > Sammy Whatsit :P perhaps, but 5150 was a tremendous album
Stigger 12-05-07, 04:14 PM	*Doesn't reveal the fact that he doesn't even like Van Halen that much, DLR or not*
msatran 12-06-07, 12:35 AM	I like both versions of Van Halen. I really do have a lot of respect for Sammy Hagar. He hunts his own food, so he CAN be a gun nut. He actually does what he believes, which is more than I can say for many in the modern world. Plus..."I Can't Drive 55" is the best driving song ever.
Lord Karsus 12-06-07, 08:07 AM	Plus..."I Can't Drive 55" is the best driving song ever. -I'm going to have to contest that, based mostly on the fact that I've never even heard that song before.
msatran 12-06-07, 08:26 AM	You'll love it once you hear it. I'll bring it to the next FR NJ meeting, which is when?
Lord Karsus 12-06-07, 12:35 PM	You'll love it once you hear it. I'll bring it to the next FR NJ meeting, which is when? -Jan sometime, if we're lucky. I think, being Supreme Overlord, I'm going to have to set up a tenative date.;)
MerrikCale 12-07-07, 11:24 PM	Plus..."I Can't Drive 55" is the best driving song ever. My vote is "Born to Be Wild"
Purple Dragon Knight 12-08-07, 02:50 AM	I vote "Chicks and Cars, and the Third World War"
Stigger 12-08-07, 03:00 AM	I'd probably vote for the Genitorturers Sin City (KMFDM's remix) myself...
Reneshat 12-08-07, 03:55 AM	Please don't hurt me, but my favorite driving song has always been "Riding the Storm Out" by REO Speedwagon....
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-08-07, 08:54 PM	-Jan sometime, if we're lucky. I think, being Supreme Overlord, I'm going to have to set up a tenative date.;) Please do!
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 09:01 PM	-I already did. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-08-07, 09:30 PM	-I already did. ;) OK, I hope I can come this time.:)