| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Oathwin Oakheart09-24-07, 12:08 AM | I must say I was more than a little shocked when I sat down to read Grand History of the Realms and found out that Helm is dead. When I am not running a game as a DM, I like to play Paladins or Clerics who follow Helm. In the end, I should have seen this coming. It happens to all the characters I like in fantasy fiction. Boromir, Sturm Brightblade, Rob Stark and now Helm. Fare well Helm . . . When 4th ed. comes out I will make a fighter and challenge anyone who follows Tyr to single combat! |
| Arbourean09-24-07, 12:27 AM | If Helm's murder leads to the corruption of Tyr and Torm taking his place as a greater power of Justice and Duty I'll be satisfied. |
| Dark Wizard09-24-07, 01:53 AM | I'd rather it had been Tyr (nothing against him) who bit the astral dust, then Helm, Torm, maybe Ilmater and Hoar (heck even Lathander/Amaunator) dividing and vying for his portfolios. WotC wants to make the setting darker, what better than to remove one of the most monumental and powerful good deities and make his friends and allies sort out his affairs. |
| MarkusTay6309-24-07, 02:43 AM | Killing Helm allows for major changes in Maztica, and he was never very popular amongst the gods after the ToT anyway. Not that I want to see anyone get offed, but I think Helm was a solid choice. The way he went, though, makes no sense what-so-ever. :rolleyes: |
| Dark Wizard09-24-07, 03:17 AM | Killing Helm allows for major changes in Maztica, and he was never very popular amongst the gods after the ToT anyway. I think Maztica has more problems than just Helm who the designers forced into the role of patron god of conquistadors. It's the whole design philosophy underlying the place. The offending god could have been anyone, Tyr, Cyric, Corellon, Lathander, even everyone's favorite two-thousand year-old hippie, the problem would have been the same. Helm lost some popularity in the North (but many still relied on his clergy for defense of many areas). His worship was still very active in the south. I really think it was a mistake. I get that he's supposed to be a re-imagined Heimdall, but I felt he was really fully integrated with Faerun unlike Tyr who had a lot of his Norse iconography. Helm has very little in common with Heimdall. Helm was an old deity and his origins a bit muddled. He was in a gray zone, having some elements in his church that could be openly evil. Overall I find him far more interesting than Tyr. I like Tyr, but Helm really seems to have many more facets to him. Tyr played things too straightforward, he had enemies purely for portfolio reasons. Helm had major gods he disliked because of a crossed past (Lathander for indirectly killing Murdane, Mystra for the ToT). Tyr is monolithic good, Helm is the regular working schmoe facing impossible odds against the tides of night (there's your point of light). (Yes, I'm a fan of Helm. My first Realms character was a Helmite.) |
| Iakhovas09-25-07, 10:32 AM | I wasn't involved in the decision to kill Helm and like Dark Wizard I'm a great fan of the Vigilant One. I have future plans for Helm. I'm just looking for the right venue to reveal them. :fight!: |
| Suin Bahhar09-25-07, 10:53 AM | I hope you just made my day there. |
| Tyrant of the Moonsea09-25-07, 04:47 PM | One strange thing though....It is noted in GHotR that when Helm dies, the Triad is broken and Ilmater leaves the House of the Triad for Brightwater.... Am I wrong or Helm never been a part of the Triad (Tyr, Ilmater and Torm)??? |
| Arbourean09-25-07, 07:52 PM | Helm was never officially part of the Triad, but I could see Ilmater becoming disillusioned over his death, especially if Tyr is gradually becoming corrupted. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-25-07, 08:22 PM | I think Maztica has more problems than just Helm who the designers forced into the role of patron god of conquistadors. It's the whole design philosophy underlying the place. The offending god could have been anyone, Tyr, Cyric, Corellon, Lathander, even everyone's favorite two-thousand year-old hippie, the problem would have been the same. Agreed, and I always hated the Helm/Maztica thing. And his pairing with Talos (Druidhome trilogy). I like Helm, and I think some novels went a long way (and dare I say it--out of the way?) to make Helm look bad. |
| Zandilar09-25-07, 08:35 PM | Heya, One strange thing though....It is noted in GHotR that when Helm dies, the Triad is broken and Ilmater leaves the House of the Triad for Brightwater.... Am I wrong or Helm never been a part of the Triad (Tyr, Ilmater and Torm)??? Helm isn't part of the Triad, but Ilmater is. When Ilmater leaves, the Triad is broke. |
| Todesherr09-26-07, 12:08 AM | Maybe Tyr will switch to LN...could happen...:eek: |
| AffableDoomwalker09-26-07, 01:06 AM | Ya know, I refused to believe it. So i went out and bought it and read it for myself. At first I was PO'd, then I was furious, then I moved to melancholy... finally, I settled on a simple, acceptable, and utterly unbelievably beautiful conclusion: Its clear, they'll make a new Helm (and why not? If Mystra has nine million lives, Helm should at least get two). If not, then they've just successfully killed off one of the three LN deities that actually made sense. Well, at least we've still got Kelemvor and the Red Knight. If they don't do something appropriate, like cause a new, awesome, kickass bossmaster of a mortal to ascend to the godhood status that is Helm's great glory (a Keldorn Firecam-esque figure, anyone?). If they don't restore Helm (see above: "do something appropriate"), then the simple cut-and-dry solution is to calmly explain to my players that Wizards is wrong, and that the writers they hired to write the future of the realms have a severe mescaline addiction that they need fixed, and that I, as their DM, am declaring that little bit of wasted ink and paper (in an otherwise interesting book) as untrue, and an obvious editing error. |
| MerrikCale09-26-07, 10:20 PM | Not that I want to see anyone get offed, but I think Helm was a solid choice. The way he went, though, makes no sense what-so-ever. :rolleyes: I'm with you 100%. I just got the book and can't figure out what the hell happened. Dumb |
| theonlygolux09-29-07, 08:40 AM | Can someone give me a DR date when Helm kicked the proverbial bucket? I play a Helmian character and my DM is messing with me. I was about to post a question, which I will ask anyway, but maybe he has good reason if Helm has died. We don't play right up to date tho. My question was are all of Helms followers, Paladins etc evil? Because my Dm has got it in his head that they are. My character seems to be the only good one? |
| Bluenose09-29-07, 08:57 AM | Can someone give me a DR date when Helm kicked the proverbial bucket? I play a Helmian character and my DM is messing with me. I was about to post a question, which I will ask anyway, but maybe he has good reason if Helm has died. We don't play right up to date tho. My question was are all of Helms followers, Paladins etc evil? Because my Dm has got it in his head that they are. My character seems to be the only good one? The year is 1384DR, though the exact date isn't given. Helm is a Lawful Neutral deity and most of his followers are that alignment, though some are Good and rather less are Evil. |
| theonlygolux09-29-07, 09:08 AM | Thank you muchly |
| ravennight09-29-07, 11:24 AM | I think one of the problems I have with Helm's death is that he has three important portfolio elements: guardians, protection and protectors. Tyr only has one portfolio element: justice. Since protection and guardianship seem to me to be as an important portfolio as justice, I don't understand why he doesn't survive and isn't a greater power status deity. Also, if the portfolios are redistributed, Tyr should be getting the protection and guardianship portfolio since they make sense to go with justice, and since justice is supposed to be blind and even-handed anyways, it doesn't make sense that Tyr isn't LN instead of leaning to the side of good. |
| Arbourean09-29-07, 01:55 PM | There is a difference between Justice and Law, with justice being more inclined towards good. Tyrants can be use laws to act with impunity, justice is seeing them get their just desserts. |
| 1 ton ghost09-29-07, 03:29 PM | justice and law aren't necessarilly maxims in and out of game. i mean, there's the natural order of things, and yet druids are still w/in a step of neutral. lunar cycles, tides, etc., are constant, graphable things, fairly lawful, but storms, famine, and so on aren't and fairly chaotic. moral law in some middle eastern places gets the offending limb cut off for various crimes, but here we do fine/jail time. justice is a bit subjective depending on geography and culture. Helm's deicide is monumental to be sure, but everyone is going to focus on Mystra. odd really, not eveyrone on the planet is a Weave user, but most ppl understand or at least acknowledge law and order and the like. |
| Suin Bahhar09-29-07, 03:55 PM | Justice is an artificial construct made by culture. Laws are the bricks to build justice but corruption too. Helm had a clear view of this and chose a role as guardian of the weak, not only the just or those in power. Helm was complex because of his singlemindedness. His role in Maztica and during the ToT strained his relationships with the other gods. Tyr being familiar with the harsh customs of the northern Norse Pantheon could act as his culture's justice dictates. This sometimes means trial by combat. I can see believable tension between these two. Hope it gets done right... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-29-07, 08:26 PM | Can someone give me a DR date when Helm kicked the proverbial bucket? I play a Helmian character... Helmite.:) My question was are all of Helms followers, Paladins etc evil? Because my Dm has got it in his head that they are. My character seems to be the only good one? As pointed out above, that is total nonsense. The vast majority of Helm's followers are good or neutral. |
| AffableDoomwalker10-01-07, 06:59 AM | I think that my biggest issue with the whole scenario (Favorite-Deity bias aside) is that I'm not sure if they plan on doing something epic with the whole shebang (which I can only hope for, like I said, he's one of.. what... 3 LN deities that actually make sense?), or if they're just planning on bastardizing the guy by carving up his portfolio and trashing him - singing "hey, sh*t happens suckers" all the way to the bank :confused: |
| Dark Wizard10-01-07, 05:15 PM | The only thing that might work for why Helm is dead is that he kept a lot of stuff locked up or at bay. Even if a god took up his portfolio the instant he died, there still has to be a transition time, especially for his clergy. A lot of areas depend on his church to safeguard stuff. Things will go to hell now, which makes sense given 4E's design mentality. |
| Asgetrion10-01-07, 05:33 PM | Helmite.:) We've also sometimes used 'Helmsman' as an "archaic" form for Helmites. I know that a native (english) speaker might consider it a more proper term for someone steering a ship, but it works for us :) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-01-07, 08:53 PM | We've also sometimes used 'Helmsman' as an "archaic" form for Helmites. I know that a native (english) speaker might consider it a more proper term for someone steering a ship, but it works for us :) Heh, that's cute.:) |
| Rauric10-02-07, 04:53 PM | Helm may still be alive in my campaign. One of my players was playing a LG cleric of Helm. He was about to get screwed over by the majority of the church because he wanted to faith to become more LG like him. Basically my take on Helm and his faith is that he is more concerned about protection and being a guardian. He doesnt care if the thing or person being protected is evil or good. He just wants his worshipper to do his job. The PC was starting to become a well known hero and starting to gather followers to his cause of church Reform. Anyway if his death causes me stress it is Retconned in my game. *Poof* there tis done. :D |
| Zsych10-05-07, 03:08 AM | I would think that a character's god suddenly dying would be a wonderful situation to play with :P Even more interesting if the player doesn't know yet that the god is dead(and has been replaced by another) |
| Dark_beebles10-05-07, 04:20 AM | I would think that a character's god suddenly dying would be a wonderful situation to play with :P Even more interesting if the player doesn't know yet that the god is dead(and has been replaced by another) My dm did that before and it was fun, we were playing in the time of troubles with a twist and i was playing a cleric/rog of mask and a prc he made up. I was highly ****** when i found out cyric was my god after a long campaign...rather frustrated...then i relised as a pc that the missions i was undertaking were actually evil. Such as stealing something didnt seem so bad, did it before..then i found out the item in question was a anchor of defense for a temple..and when it was gone demons took it out..just never put 2 and 2 together til it was too late lol. Anyways about helm dying they should have took out torm he seems more of a...no nothing god them helm did. Or just flat out get rid of bane...he should be the god of failures, |
| Suin Bahhar10-05-07, 08:42 AM | Poor Helmites. Helmsmen who are true to their dogma should recieve for free the bonus feat Servant of the Fallen. If they do recieve or hear the Call of Helms Death they could remain performing their bodyguard or sentry duties. They will not be able to support the countless people that depended on their vigilence though. Eventually people could hate them for that, seeing it as a betrayal. |
| Charles Phipps01-29-08, 08:22 PM | Poor Helmites. Helmsmen who are true to their dogma should recieve for free the bonus feat Servant of the Fallen. If they do recieve or hear the Call of Helms Death they could remain performing their bodyguard or sentry duties. They will not be able to support the countless people that depended on their vigilence though. Eventually people could hate them for that, seeing it as a betrayal. I hope that someone, Torm or Red Knight, provides the Helmites with suitable spells. For me, I think that it'll be a major theme of my games that people will attempt to get Helm raised. I admit, I was more upset about Tyr being sullied and kicked out of the Realms than I was by Helm The Hammerland (thank you Lord of the Rings) was getting killed. Helm was very popular amongst my player characters since the idea of Protecting People and Homes seemed much more important to quite a few of them than the idea of actively seeking out evil or horror to punish. I recall when I transplanted Lady Kateri Shadowborn from Ravenloft to the Realms (for running the "Ebonbane" adventure) as one of the legendary paladins of the Realms. I decided to have her worship Helm instead of Tyr or Torm because it seemed the perfect God for a Defender of the Weak. Ultimately, she became the origin for Red Knight in our games. Plus, it's such a nifty name. Helm. So, despite my casting aspersions in your direction. I lift a toast towards Helm and suggest we all share what we loved best about the guy. |
| FRBRAZIL01-31-08, 09:17 AM | Cyric killed him, right? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-31-08, 11:12 AM | Cyric is suspected of being involved with the Tyr/Helm debacle, but that is not proven. It was Tyr who did the actual killing. |
| SmartPaladin01-31-08, 03:46 PM | I hope that someone, Torm or Red Knight, provides the Helmites with suitable spells. For me, I think that it'll be a major theme of my games that people will attempt to get Helm raised. I admit, I was more upset about Tyr being sullied and kicked out of the Realms than I was by Helm The Hammerland (thank you Lord of the Rings) was getting killed. Helm was very popular amongst my player characters since the idea of Protecting People and Homes seemed much more important to quite a few of them than the idea of actively seeking out evil or horror to punish. I recall when I transplanted Lady Kateri Shadowborn from Ravenloft to the Realms (for running the "Ebonbane" adventure) as one of the legendary paladins of the Realms. I decided to have her worship Helm instead of Tyr or Torm because it seemed the perfect God for a Defender of the Weak. Ultimately, she became the origin for Red Knight in our games. Plus, it's such a nifty name. Helm. So, despite my casting aspersions in your direction. I lift a toast towards Helm and suggest we all share what we loved best about the guy. The only other deities who come close to protecting the people and the downtrodden are Ilmater, and Hoar. Ilmater does it out of the kindness of his heart, Hoar does it out of his own sense of Justice. |
| Draco Spirit02-02-08, 12:01 PM | One strange thing though....It is noted in GHotR that when Helm dies, the Triad is broken and Ilmater leaves the House of the Triad for Brightwater.... Am I wrong or Helm never been a part of the Triad (Tyr, Ilmater and Torm)??? Ilmatar in Brightwater... so the old man of LG gods will be hanging out with some of the hottest and chaotic female deities in the FR.. now that going to be interesting..:P On a more serous note, I'm quiet upset that Tyr and Helm are gone, the tension between them and Torm in matters of justice was always interesting.. |
| msatran02-02-08, 12:42 PM | My real problem is this: What happens to the Triadic Knights? Does this noble organization of goodly folk simply pack their bags? George? Your input would be kinda welcome. I have one active triadic knight and a couple of prospective ones. Should I screw these players over? Of course not. So now I have to figure out what to do because the Triad is going to break. In all honesty, I think 1382 is going to be the last year of canon following. But hey...you know...that's not necessarily bad if I stick with 3.5. And you know, if Wizards !@#$s up badly enough (And it looks like they are), I hear Paizo has this great world called Golarion with mechanicless fluff, the way it should be. |
| Charles Phipps02-02-08, 02:54 PM | Maybe we'll have Torm team up with Lathander and Red Knight. |
| Hopeless02-02-08, 05:20 PM | The only thing that might work for why Helm is dead is that he kept a lot of stuff locked up or at bay. Even if a god took up his portfolio the instant he died, there still has to be a transition time, especially for his clergy. A lot of areas depend on his church to safeguard stuff. Things will go to hell now, which makes sense given 4E's design mentality. I have always wondered that he was slain before Cyric and Shar murdered Mystra because if he wasn't, there was absolutely no way they could have pulled off their attack and ergo the Spell Plague would never have happened. I am of the view that the whole Tyr killed Helm is just a lie spread by Cyric and Shar's faith to help weaken Tyr, but I still think they should have put more thought into this part of the changes they planned. And yes I have a cleric of Helm as a character and my remaining interest in 4e is seeing if this particular event is properly explained since there is no way Torm absconds with Helm's portfolio given this so-called duel is a load of hogwash and thats the most polite word I can call it. Hmm given Waukeen was held prisoner thanks to the TOT mybe the same is true for Helm except Tyr who last i heard was blind and lost one of his hands so would someone care to confirm or correct this last detail? |
| GoldDragon02-03-08, 02:16 AM | Killing Helm allows for major changes in Maztica, and he was never very popular amongst the gods after the ToT anyway. Not that I want to see anyone get offed, but I think Helm was a solid choice. The way he went, though, makes no sense what-so-ever. :rolleyes: What Happened? did he fall of the toilet while trying to hang a picture and crack his head on the sink? The Church of Helm,like the Church of Waukeen, is a well funded organization that serves a useful purpouse and just because it's patron godling is dead doesn't mean that all the Churches, Outposts and Shrines and such under the Church will "just crumble" considering they are a Militant Force that just happens to have access to divine Spells and Divine Magic. It would be against their fundamental Ethos to abondon their posts and neglect their duty cause suddenly they can't cast higher then 2 level Spells or no longer "feel Helm". |
| sfdragon02-03-08, 02:51 AM | Torm would get a good deal if not all of Helm's followers, in fact his clerics could petition something of helm's to bring him back. Then Helm could go to Lord AO and explain to him that Tyr needs to go. thus the new triad would carry Torm, the Red Knight and Helm or maybe not |
| Charles Phipps02-03-08, 04:56 AM | I can't imagine Helm's followers would go to Torm, given Torm stands behind Tyr because well....probably you don't abandon your friend like that. Likewise, Torm would never forgive the party responsible for Tyr's banishment. It might be the fun start of a LG vs. mostly LG faith conflict. You could do a fun plan where the Tormites attempt to wipe the Helmites from the face of existence or vice versa with the Helmites and the Tyr faith. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-03-08, 04:29 PM | My real problem is this: What happens to the Triadic Knights? Does this noble organization of goodly folk simply pack their bags? George? Your input would be kinda welcome. I have one active triadic knight and a couple of prospective ones. Should I screw these players over? Of course not. So now I have to figure out what to do because the Triad is going to break. In all honesty, I think 1382 is going to be the last year of canon following. My opinion: Just don't introduce this event into your campaign.:) Don't feel you have to follow what's "canon". |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-03-08, 04:31 PM | I can't imagine Helm's followers would go to Torm, given Torm stands behind Tyr because well....probably you don't abandon your friend like that. Torm was also friends with Helm, though. |
| Charles Phipps02-03-08, 04:39 PM | Torm was also friends with Helm, though. Yes. I imagine he's probably heart broken and devoted to seeing Cyric destroyed for it. |
| Kenzuki02-03-08, 11:22 PM | Yes. I imagine he's probably heart broken and devoted to seeing Cyric destroyed for it. Tyr killed Helm not Cyric. |
| Charles Phipps02-03-08, 11:37 PM | Tyr killed Helm not Cyric. Nope. :P |
| Kenzuki02-03-08, 11:38 PM | Nope. :P You're in denial. |
| Charles Phipps02-03-08, 11:42 PM | You're ignoring. :) |
| Kenzuki02-03-08, 11:46 PM | You're ignoring. :) That is because you are wrong Charles. Tyr killed Helm. This is FACT. |
| Charles Phipps02-04-08, 06:53 AM | Yes, at Cyric's doing. :rolleyes: |
| sfdragon02-05-08, 04:16 AM | which hasnt been proved but it is speculation. |
| Kenzuki02-05-08, 08:22 AM | Yes, at Cyric's doing. :rolleyes: Prove it Charles. Prove it right now! |
| Rauric02-05-08, 09:30 AM | My opinion: Just don't introduce this event into your campaign.:) Don't feel you have to follow what's "canon". Yep. FR has so much stuff going on with it year after year that I have found I need to ignore many new bits of canon that comes out. Hell ignoring canon is a time honored tradition in the Realms since TOT.;) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-05-08, 10:47 AM | Yep. FR has so much stuff going on with it year after year that I have found I need to ignore many new bits of canon that comes out. Hell ignoring canon is a time honored tradition in the Realms since TOT.;) Also, ignoring canon in favor of what YOU want to do is actually pretty liberating. |
| The_Shaman02-06-08, 09:49 PM | Not to mention eventually correct. One day you'll feel like those grognards who didn't allow male drow to become clerics of Lloth and didn't have Bane disappear. |
| GoldDragon02-07-08, 06:06 PM | My real problem is this: What happens to the Triadic Knights? Does this noble organization of goodly folk simply pack their bags? George? Your input would be kinda welcome. I have one active triadic knight and a couple of prospective ones. Should I screw these players over? Of course not. So now I have to figure out what to do because the Triad is going to break. In all honesty, I think 1382 is going to be the last year of canon following. But hey...you know...that's not necessarily bad if I stick with 3.5. And you know, if Wizards !@#$s up badly enough (And it looks like they are), I hear Paizo has this great world called Golarion with mechanicless fluff, the way it should be. Again the Church of Waulken still functioned for the most part because they are "Bankers", "Creditors", and "Houses of Commerce" when their godhead was MIA....with the only real Noticeable difference being the Clerics couldn't get anything higher then 2nd level spells (1st and 2nd Level Spells is from "own faith",3rd-4th granted by Demi-god/Minion,5th-6th granted by Lessor god/Minion,7th granted by essence of greater god) Likewise, the Shrines and Churches of Helm serve as "Guard Stations", "Way Stations", Guard Posts, Security forces,Police forces and Local Militia in certain places and even hire out as Caravan guards so are well funded and won't just "go away" cause their godhead is gone though, again, they may lose access to Spells higher then 2nd level. Another example of another organization who may have survived the lost of their godhead because they are Scribes and Sages that offer services for copying books, make their own compilation manusripts, and have one of the Largest active Liabraries on Toril that many can use either by paying fees or joining them is the Monks of Candlekeep. "Non-denominational" Monks" in a world full of active godlings is why many suspect they might have lost thier god and just chose not to change godheads. the "Old Order" on the other hand still venerates a "god" that was also killed or "never existed" yet they still also exist. So, the fundemental questions Are: 1) What "usefulness" do the Triadic Knights bring to the world? Do they offer services that can keep them funded like the Knight's Templar who offered way stations, guards for citys and caravans, acted as police forces, and invested in land tended for crops and such? 2) Do all the Knights venerate all 3 godheads or can they favor one over another? This CAN tear the organization apart as accusations and grudges fly back and forth if there is individual patron god prefferences. 3) Considering the Calvaler Class was gone after the Time of Troubles (along with all their powers) cause Ao changed the rules of the way the gods work, What are the Class(es) of the Triadic KNights? The ones most effected would be Clerics of Tyr and Helm (duh) but if they are all now just "mere Fighters" cause they used to once be actual Knights then they been serving their god without their higher Level Clerical powers for a While unless they converted to Paladinism. A Paladin of the Triad wouldn't need to venerate one over another to get his/her Lay hands and minor Clerical abilities as that is "Faith" rather then minion or godling intervention 4) Are the Knights, it their right mind and senses, as petty,childish and arrogant as the gods can be cause of their powers? One god killed the other god over an argument and the other got bannished? As a follower of the gods involved and if I was a Knight venerating all 3 of them, my first thoughts would be 1) Somebody, Maybe Shar or Cyric, manipulated Tyr and Helm to attack heach other 2) Somebody, Maybe Shar or Cyric, manage to Kill Helm then Frame Tyr (by posing as Tyr) 3) It is all lies and rumors and Tyr and Helm are on a Secret mission in the outter planes together 4) It is all lies and Rumors and Tyr and Helm have been abducted and/or imprisoned the way Waulken was. |
| Alkasyn02-10-08, 04:27 PM | 1) Somebody, Maybe Shar or Cyric, manipulated Tyr and Helm to attack heach other 2) Somebody, Maybe Shar or Cyric, manage to Kill Helm then Frame Tyr (by posing as Tyr) 3) It is all lies and rumors and Tyr and Helm are on a Secret mission in the outter planes together 4) It is all lies and Rumors and Tyr and Helm have been abducted and/or imprisoned the way Waulken was. Those 4 poitns are true - let me bring one from my session: I was a cleric/warpriest of Helm and my best bud was a Pallie of Tyr. We dont play as those characvters anymore, but the sheer thought of how it would look like if we did and all that **** has hit the fan would be as follows: "Hi Helm, it's me again, I'll need 3 bull's strenghts, a hearoes feast, and ... Wha, why is Your voice different all of a sudden?" "Ugh, sorry ,it's Tyr - I killed Helm and called dibs on his porftolios, so , well, you're my cleric now" My cleric throws a glance at the Pallie, checking whether he plots to stab his greatsword into my back when I'm not looking "ooookay, Tyr, whatever you say..." |
| msatran02-14-08, 04:46 AM | Again the Church of Waulken still functioned for the most part because they are "Bankers", "Creditors", and "Houses of Commerce" when their godhead was MIA....with the only real Noticeable difference being the Clerics couldn't get anything higher then 2nd level spells (1st and 2nd Level Spells is from "own faith",3rd-4th granted by Demi-god/Minion,5th-6th granted by Lessor god/Minion,7th granted by essence of greater god) Likewise, the Shrines and Churches of Helm serve as "Guard Stations", "Way Stations", Guard Posts, Security forces,Police forces and Local Militia in certain places and even hire out as Caravan guards so are well funded and won't just "go away" cause their godhead is gone though, again, they may lose access to Spells higher then 2nd level. Another example of another organization who may have survived the lost of their godhead because they are Scribes and Sages that offer services for copying books, make their own compilation manusripts, and have one of the Largest active Liabraries on Toril that many can use either by paying fees or joining them is the Monks of Candlekeep. "Non-denominational" Monks" in a world full of active godlings is why many suspect they might have lost thier god and just chose not to change godheads. the "Old Order" on the other hand still venerates a "god" that was also killed or "never existed" yet they still also exist. So, the fundemental questions Are: 1) What "usefulness" do the Triadic Knights bring to the world? Do they offer services that can keep them funded like the Knight's Templar who offered way stations, guards for citys and caravans, acted as police forces, and invested in land tended for crops and such? 2) Do all the Knights venerate all 3 godheads or can they favor one over another? This CAN tear the organization apart as accusations and grudges fly back and forth if there is individual patron god prefferences. 3) Considering the Calvaler Class was gone after the Time of Troubles (along with all their powers) cause Ao changed the rules of the way the gods work, What are the Class(es) of the Triadic KNights? The ones most effected would be Clerics of Tyr and Helm (duh) but if they are all now just "mere Fighters" cause they used to once be actual Knights then they been serving their god without their higher Level Clerical powers for a While unless they converted to Paladinism. A Paladin of the Triad wouldn't need to venerate one over another to get his/her Lay hands and minor Clerical abilities as that is "Faith" rather then minion or godling intervention 4) Are the Knights, it their right mind and senses, as petty,childish and arrogant as the gods can be cause of their powers? One god killed the other god over an argument and the other got bannished? As a follower of the gods involved and if I was a Knight venerating all 3 of them, my first thoughts would be 1) Somebody, Maybe Shar or Cyric, manipulated Tyr and Helm to attack heach other 2) Somebody, Maybe Shar or Cyric, manage to Kill Helm then Frame Tyr (by posing as Tyr) 3) It is all lies and rumors and Tyr and Helm are on a Secret mission in the outter planes together 4) It is all lies and Rumors and Tyr and Helm have been abducted and/or imprisoned the way Waulken was. I think you miss the point of my question. The question is WHO IS GRANTING THE ABILITIES OF THIS PRESTIGE CLASS? If it's the Triad, then suddenly, you have a Knightly Order with no special abilities. If Tyr, Torm, and Illmater suddenly part ways, what reason would there be for the gods to continue to grant these abilities to the ideals of the Triad? On the other hand, this Knightly Order is not simply going to disappear. Fifty percent of the rulers of the country belong to this Knightly Order. It's well funded and well established. the question is either A) What happens to their Empty Levels? or B) Do the gods continue to grant the abilities in honor of the five hundred year tradition of Lawful Good Triadic Knights? I vote for Option B. Impiltur really doesn't function as a nation without the Triadic Knights, they're the elite officers, military officials, and heroes of the Realm, and the country is one of the few that's constantly beset by Demonic Terrors on a regular basis. There's no logical reason for the gods to suddenly stop these people from fighting Evil, nor is there any logical reason why the deities would prevent Lawful and Good beings from combating evil outsiders, no matter the course. |
| Charles Phipps02-15-08, 12:06 PM | I figure they'll be some chaos to be honest. Those who worship Ilmater may have a choice of converting to serving Torm or Tyr but they'll pretty much have to either do so or be ejected from the Knighthood (probably to form their own order). As a DM, I'd certainly give the option of having Ilmater switch over your Prestige Class levels for something else or perhaps even a Specialty Prestige Class devoted solely to him. Otherwise, the Torm/Tyrites will be fine. |
| msatran02-16-08, 05:29 PM | Hey, in my game, it doesn't matter, Charles. I'm stopping their history in 1382. No Stupid Romance that makes no sense. I doubt the shades will live that long in my game, so the threat level should be significantly decreased by then, anyway. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-17-08, 06:35 PM | Yay! I LOVE the idea of a decreased Shade population.:D |