Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kiioro 02-14-08, 12:07 PM	I understand that there will be only a few gods left, roughly 30. Will this be some kind of retcon? "Well, actually, the story we told you that Bast was taken by Shar, rescued by Sune and the result was that she became Sharess... well, that didn't happen. Ever. She was a saint of Sune all along, she was never Bast, to begin with." Or something of the like? Or will it be some big cataclysm that will strip most of the deities of their power, causing them to turn to the most powerful for shelter? And, does that mean that there will be 30 universal deities for Greyhawk, FR, and Eberron? Or each setting will have 30 deities, some shared by all, some unique? I'd like to know if your answers are based on something official (if no comment about that is made, I'll assume it's your best guess / opinion).
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-14-08, 01:07 PM	I'll be a little of everything as I understand it some killed, some recton and so on...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-14-08, 02:04 PM	Yes, that's my understanding as well. Many current deities will just be decreasing in stature to demigods--which, in 4E, will mean they won't have churches and worshippers anymore, they'll be more like "saints" serving a greater deity.
Todesherr 02-15-08, 01:21 AM	Yes, that's my understanding as well. Many current deities will just be decreasing in stature to demigods--which, in 4E, will mean they won't have churches and worshippers anymore, they'll be more like "saints" serving a greater deity. Not Lord Torm! Greater Power G-Homies! ;) :eek: :fight!: :fight!:
Zanan 02-15-08, 04:41 AM	Yes, that's my understanding as well. Many current deities will just be decreasing in stature to demigods--which, in 4E, will mean they won't have churches and worshippers anymore, they'll be more like "saints" serving a greater deity. Simplification for the simple minds. Or wait ... they need their brains to learn all the new feats, and skills, skill tricks, spells and the rest of the super-duper stuff ...
Alediran 02-15-08, 06:31 AM	Simplification for the simple minds. Or wait ... they need their brains to learn all the new feats, and skills, skill tricks, spells and the rest of the super-duper stuff ... Yeah, how can they ever remember every single feat, skill, spell, etc if they can't have enough space due to setting lore?
Lord Karsus 02-15-08, 09:52 AM	Yeah, how can they ever remember every single feat, skill, spell, etc if they can't have enough space due to setting lore? -Actually, you raise a funny point. People have been complaining that they don't want to have to remember, say, who rules Waterdeep as the Open Lord. But, at the same hand, people can quote rules, feats, spells, etc. by heart. A little silly, I think.
Alediran 02-15-08, 10:55 AM	I can do both, but that's what makes me a Sun Elf Wizard :P
Soltares 02-15-08, 12:31 PM	-Actually, you raise a funny point. People have been complaining that they don't want to have to remember, say, who rules Waterdeep as the Open Lord. But, at the same hand, people can quote rules, feats, spells, etc. by heart. A little silly, I think. I always thought the popularity of the Realms was derived part and parcel from it's depth and attention to detail. Silly me. Apparently, all that stuff was weighing it down and what we *really* wanted was Warhammer Quest, where the towns and their residents are just nameless refueling stations between exciting doubleplusgoodfun rounds of combat.
Lord Karsus 02-15-08, 12:32 PM	Silly me. Apparently, all that stuff was weighing it down and what we *really* wanted was Warhammer Quest, where the towns and their residents are just nameless refueling stations between exciting doubleplusgoodfun rounds of combat. -He can be taught! ;)
Zanan 02-15-08, 12:56 PM	-Actually, you raise a funny point. People have been complaining that they don't want to have to remember, say, who rules Waterdeep as the Open Lord. But, at the same hand, people can quote rules, feats, spells, etc. by heart. A little silly, I think. You see, there are / were some 150odd deities within Realmspace and while AD&D could manage them, 3E (granted ... all the conversion workload) did not. I rarely came accross someone who moaned about the number of deities, rather on the contrary. The only thing that produced the odd raised eyebrow was the inclusion of real world stuff, like the Egyptian deities. Now ... redoing the old deities was not that hard, as much that was transplanted into 3E (namely Faiths & Pantheons) was simply copy & pasted from the F&A series, with a touch of 3E flair, namely (the unwanted) deity stats and some PrC. 8 years of 3E did not manage that F&A series conversion work, not even as web-enhancement. I'd done that for free, mind you. At the same time though, about 1,300 arcane spells alone were published in all the books including the PHB ... and no-one ever complained about that, did they? As I said, if you start something new, you are expected to read a bit. Like getting the drivers license and being suddenly faced with the question of selecting a car! Will you throw the license away again because of the multitude of offers out there on the streets? And there is not even the real world excuse, for polytheistic societies had far more deities, the Romans alone had some 200 to choose from in their hayday, the Celts closer to 400 etc.. IMHO, we will end up with something like Complete Divine, where there are these paragons like Gwynharwyf or Queen Morwel as some sort of demideities. Obviously, if they chuck the likes of Loviatar even further down and approximatly towards the powerlevel of pit fiends, something went horribly wrong. But we shall see, we shall see ...
Lord Karsus 02-15-08, 01:15 PM	At the same time though, about 1,300 arcane spells alone were published in all the books including the PHB ... and no-one ever complained about that, did they? -'Zactly. A bit hypocritical some of these people are. As I said, if you start something new, you are expected to read a bit. Like getting the drivers license and being suddenly faced with the question of selecting a car! Will you throw the license away again because of the multitude of offers out there on the streets? :rofl:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-15-08, 01:16 PM	-Actually, you raise a funny point. People have been complaining that they don't want to have to remember, say, who rules Waterdeep as the Open Lord. But, at the same hand, people can quote rules, feats, spells, etc. by heart. A little silly, I think. I know, there's a bit of a double standard there, I think. I guess it comes down to what parts of the game people are interested in, which is a legitimate issue...although, if people aren't that interested in lore, they should just say so rather than accuse the setting of having too much lore for their (supposedly) faulty memories. And of course, if they aren't that interested in the lore, why is there a need on their part to conform to what's "canon" in the first place?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-15-08, 01:22 PM	IMHO, we will end up with something like Complete Divine, where there are these paragons like Gwynharwyf or Queen Morwel as some sort of demideities. Speaking of Queen Morwel and Co., she seems to have disappeared from the Court of Stars. Worlds and Monsters mentions the Court of Stars (located in the Feywild), and it's has a new royal couple (Queen Tiandra and King something-or-other).
Lord Karsus 02-15-08, 01:59 PM	I know, there's a bit of a double standard there, I think. I guess it comes down to what parts of the game people are interested in, which is a legitimate issue...although, if people aren't that interested in lore, they should just say so rather than accuse the setting of having too much lore for their (supposedly) faulty memories. And of course, if they aren't that interested in the lore, why is there a need on their part to conform to what's "canon" in the first place? -As always, you speak the truth. Speaking of Queen Morwel and Co., she seems to have disappeared from the Court of Stars. Worlds and Monsters mentions the Court of Stars (located in the Feywild), and it's has a new royal couple (Queen Tiandra and King something-or-other). -Really? Wonder what happened. That's a good 'Ask-Rich-Baker' question.
Alediran 02-15-08, 02:15 PM	-Really? Wonder what happened. That's a good 'Ask-Rich-Baker' question. That's a very important question that he better give a good answer.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-15-08, 07:02 PM	I'm curious to know the answer as well.:) It's in the Feywild section of Worlds and Monsters. Having reread that bit today, I got the name of the king: Oran. -As always, you speak the truth. Awww, thanks.:embarrass :D I try, I try.
Kenzuki 02-16-08, 07:44 AM	They Eladrin right? Probably been nerfed to mortals. They weren't that important anyway.
Scathlock 02-16-08, 10:07 AM	I'm curious to know the answer as well.:) It's in the Feywild section of Worlds and Monsters. Having reread that bit today, I got the name of the king: Oran. Awww, thanks.:embarrass :D I try, I try. Tiandra and Oran? How lame is that? I mean: Titania and Oberon... so they are merging Seelie Court and Court of Stars... bah. The more I hear from this cr@p the more I'm convinced its not for me...but then, it isn't.
Lord Karsus 02-16-08, 10:14 AM	Tiandra and Oran? How lame is that? I mean: Titania and Oberon... so they are merging Seelie Court and Court of Stars... -Whoa. You know, I didn't even realize that until you mentioned it...:nonono:
GothicDan 02-16-08, 01:20 PM	I love the Eladrin. :weep: It's really funny. Everything Kenzuki doesn't think is important, is one of my favorite aspects of the game.
Lord Karsus 02-16-08, 02:12 PM	It's really funny. Everything Kenzuki doesn't think is important, is one of my favorite aspects of the game. -That leaves only one conclusion. You are destined to kill him, or him you. I'm betting on the Ar'Tel'Quess Selu'Taar.
XHereticX 02-16-08, 02:16 PM	I love the Eladrin. :weep: It's really funny. Everything Kenzuki doesn't think is important, is one of my favorite aspects of the game. That may be tied to the fact that your philosophies are near opposites. Whatever, as much as I hate to admit it, Nietzsche has been making more and more sense to me as of late (though Thelemism might overcome that and bring me back to spirituality).
GothicDan 02-16-08, 02:17 PM	Doublewootsupergood.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 02:18 PM	Whatever, as much as I hate to admit it, Nietzsche has been making more and more sense to me a of late (though Thelemism might overcome that and bring me back to spirituality). Praise Lord Syphilis.
XHereticX 02-16-08, 02:19 PM	Praise Lord Syphilis. I think it's time for a overdose of Kant to cure this abomination.
Lord Karsus 02-16-08, 02:22 PM	I think it's time for a overdose of Kant to cure this abomination. -Too much kant can give you syphilis...Oh, never mind...
GothicDan 02-16-08, 02:24 PM	I'm scandalized!
XHereticX 02-16-08, 02:26 PM	-Too much kant can give you syphilis...Oh, never mind... Whatever, I'm currently looking at Crowley and Esoteric Christianity in hopes that I restore some of my spirituality. But all that alchemy stuff just turns me off.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 02:37 PM	Stop looking for spirituality. Look for purpose. :)
XHereticX 02-16-08, 02:43 PM	Stop looking for spirituality. Look for purpose. :) Oh, I have had one for a while now. I simply seek the most pleasure with the least amount of effort. As it happens, spirituality gives me pleasure with little effort, and I am greatly disturbed when I lack it.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 02:44 PM	Ah, that was a paradox I was thinking about the other night. :)
XHereticX 02-16-08, 02:48 PM	Ah, that was a paradox I was thinking about the other night. :) I don't try to overcome it. It gives me purpose where I am obligated to nobody and nothing but myself. So I'm happy.
Zanan 02-16-08, 04:16 PM	I love the Eladrin. :weep: Another thing that irritates me. One the one hand, they want to cut the number of deities, not least because of too much fluff text. On the other though, they give us a new background of half of the elven races, introduce the feywild and the other thing whose name just escpaes me, bring back Abeir, introduce the dragonborn and all that. Essentially, the workload for designers and readers does not exactly diminish here, does it?
GothicDan 02-16-08, 05:09 PM	No, but now the current generation of designers gets to make everyone learn the lore THEY created.... Ego? Maybe.
Alediran 02-16-08, 05:10 PM	My purpose is to discover the unifying truth of everything.
XHereticX 02-16-08, 05:32 PM	No, but now the current generation of designers gets to make everyone learn the lore THEY created.... Ego? Maybe. I think it's a way of giving newer gamers a more even playing field against older ones and in a way lessening inequalities in the D&D community. In other words, the D&D game is certainly no MMO for "phat lewters", but a fresh start for all.
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 06:33 PM	Ah, that was a paradox I was thinking about the other night. :) I had a fun argument about that in-game. Law (Purpose), Neutrality (seeking an expansion of one's consciousness by dismissing none), and Chaos (existence for it sown sake) I lean towards Neutrality myself. But yes, my take on the issue is that they'll only keep the Faerun Pantheon and dismiss about 20 of the lesser deities into Saints. I hope they imply that the Core Pantheon exists in the Realms so we can keep the holdover ones (Bane, Bahamut, Corellon) Unfortunately, we'd have to make room for Raven Queen.
XHereticX 02-16-08, 07:25 PM	I had a fun argument about that in-game. Law (Purpose), Neutrality (seeking an expansion of one's consciousness by dismissing none), and Chaos (existence for it sown sake) I lean towards Neutrality myself. But yes, my take on the issue is that they'll only keep the Faerun Pantheon and dismiss about 20 of the lesser deities into Saints. I hope they imply that the Core Pantheon exists in the Realms so we can keep the holdover ones (Bane, Bahamut, Corellon) Unfortunately, we'd have to make room for Raven Queen. I seriously hope the Raven Queen does not replace Nerull, though I don't mind if they bump off Wee Jas. As for the purpose factor, you are excluding Nilhism from those. Those that have no purpose and believe there is none.
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 07:43 PM	Nihilism tends to fall under an extreme form of Chaos but you're right. I also think the Raven Queen is supposed to be a Morrigan/Wee Jas figure.
Kiioro 02-16-08, 08:22 PM	My purpose is to discover the unifying truth of everything. The answer exists, my friend: Life is to be lived to its fullest, in decadent sensual fulfillment of yourselves and others. That which is good is pleasurable, and that which is pleasurable is good. Pleasure is to be sought out at every opportunity and life is to be lived in one endless revel. (...) Infinite experiences await those who would explore, so try the new as well as savoring the old.
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 08:28 PM	Meh. I'm not a higher and lower pleasures man. To me, pleasure without pains to contrast it with is a meaningless existence. A sense of accomplishment, even if it is great, also dulls towards the genuine benefit reached from the act of doing so. Then again, that may be my community brainwashing. *raises zombie hands* *drool* "Obey, Obey, Obey."
Alediran 02-17-08, 01:57 AM	The answer exists, my friend: That's a way of living, not the universal truth that binds us all.
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 01:59 AM	A lot of people believe what works for them would work for others. And what doesn't work for others just means somethings wrong with them. Which is silly. Clearly, ONLY THE WAY I LIVE should be for everyone. ;-)
Kiioro 02-17-08, 02:13 AM	...and by the way, that was Sharess's dogma, hehehe I know that if I lived in Faerūn, I'd be a saint of that religion-- if I survived the spellplague and Sharess made it somehow through it (becoming one with Sune, I assume).
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-17-08, 03:16 AM	Sharess should have enough worshipers to be a Greater Deity. And just imagine what your afterlife would be like. :ayyyy!:
msatran 02-17-08, 03:26 AM	Don't be ridiculous. One of the other reasons for the rewrite is people can't wrap their brains around the open sexuality. All of the deities who involve open sexuality will suddenly have Sune yanking their chain saying "Hey! What about romance?" They can take their 100 year time jump, and go !@#$ themselves with an adamantine crazy straw. Alternative Pantheon Reduction Method: Cosmic Corset...Very Slimming...:) Second Alternative Pantheon Reduction Method: Cosmic Bran. Very slimming, but you feel better afterwards.
Zanan 02-17-08, 04:15 AM	I think it's a way of giving newer gamers a more even playing field against older ones and in a way lessening inequalities in the D&D community. In other words, the D&D game is certainly no MMO for "phat lewters", but a fresh start for all. IMHO, new gamers have as far as I can see it a far greater liking to Eberron. Some older gamers have switched sides as well, to experience something new (though the New FR look more like Eberron than the old Realms now). Now they alienate the old campaigners even further, who will not all switch to the New Realms just because the fact that they are not "their Realms" any longer. Obviously, there will be more generations of FR DM and some old campaigners staying loyal to the Realms - if not the designers. But who will teach the new generation when a large portion of the old guard says "No, but no thanks!"? I have my doubts that the New FR will be able to challenge Eberron in selling figures and if they flop, WotC can adjust their 4E needs by concentrating on Eberron, which will be out one year of 4E experience later (and will most likely not see that great a change withing the setting as the Realm experienced). Well, that may sound as outright doom-mongering, yet, for the sake of the Realms, I hope they will be a smash hit amongst the gamers.
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 04:19 AM	(though the New FR look more like Eberron than the old Realms now). I know it's fun to complain this, but...given I *LIKE* Eberron, how is this an insult? (unfortunately, it's nothing like Eberron)
Zanan 02-17-08, 04:28 AM	I know it's fun to complain this, but...given I *LIKE* Eberron, how is this an insult? (unfortunately, it's nothing like Eberron) It was not meant as an insult. The problem is that you don't need two horses challenging for the same trophy ... for sooner or later one will come short and ends up at the slaughterhouse. Given that the Realms have seen a massive shake-up and the fanbase not really excited about it, whereas Eberron walks on nigh unscathed, who do you think will end up a looser here? I could start to point out the likenesses here and now, but I lack the time. It has been spelt out numerous times on this board anyways. (NB: Though it does not belong into this thread.)
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 04:38 AM	I know, but you can't change the two realms are so different as to be unrecognizable. They destroyed Halruaa and that was the most like Eberron in the Realms.
Kenzuki 02-17-08, 07:26 AM	Don't be ridiculous. One of the other reasons for the rewrite is people can't wrap their brains around the open sexuality. All of the deities who involve open sexuality will suddenly have Sune yanking their chain saying "Hey! What about romance?" They can take their 100 year time jump, and go !@#$ themselves with an adamantine crazy straw. Alternative Pantheon Reduction Method: Cosmic Corset...Very Slimming...:) Second Alternative Pantheon Reduction Method: Cosmic Bran. Very slimming, but you feel better afterwards. Are you trying to get bannned here? I think you're overeacting to this whole thing. It's just a game mate, no sense in getting your panties in a twist. Just ignor their stuff.
Lord Karsus 02-17-08, 08:46 AM	Whatever, I'm currently looking at Crowley and Esoteric Christianity in hopes that I restore some of my spirituality. But all that alchemy stuff just turns me off. -You obviously didn't get it. -I realize that Bahamut is a cool deity. Never liked him too much, but now I do.
GothicDan 02-17-08, 12:00 PM	I'm too busy loving Msatran to concentrate much, but... If you compare the old FR to Eberron, and the new FR to Eberron, I wonder which comparison will show more similarities.... That being said, while I don't know much about Eberron, I don't think Halruaa is the most similar to it. While it has the 'wide magic' feel, it most certainly epitomizes the 'high magic' feel of FR, too. Dozens of archmages in a single country? Not very Eberron-ish.
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 02:00 PM	True, but Archmage is a state of being. Aundair has the benefit of being the country with hundreds of Archmages, it's just all of them are 13th level or so.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-17-08, 06:59 PM	Stop looking for spirituality. Look for purpose. :) I would say make your own purpose.:)
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 07:00 PM	Also, isn't spirituality about finding purpose in the divine?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-17-08, 07:01 PM	Also, isn't spirituality about finding purpose in the divine? Yes, I think it can be.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-17-08, 07:06 PM	I know it's fun to complain this, but...given I *LIKE* Eberron, how is this an insult? I don't think it's meant as an insult, necessarily, but if the Realms becomes more like Eberron (and that's of course a matter of opinion), then it becomes less like...well, the Realms. It's also upsetting that two settings couldn't just be left alone to be different.
GothicDan 02-17-08, 09:44 PM	Indeed. :) I actually think, with a few changes, I'd like Eberron, too, actually. In my various takes on fantasy worlds, I've tried to do the widespread magic thing - again, with some modifications. One culture I'm working on is sort of Netheril + Roman Empire. I actually bet Aundair would be a good source of inspiration for this.
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 09:56 PM	Yeah, I'm the opposite for FR. I tend to make magic "special" in Forgotten Realms, when I probably shouldn't.