Post/Author/DateTime	Post
drizzt420 10-22-07, 12:34 PM	How do you feel this situation would resolve with your current knowledge of Shar and Selunes respective dogma's? I want some feedback and will post my personal resolution (already happened in my game) if needed. I do not want to post it yet so I can get different opinions and not ones based off of my own personal decision in regards to this dilemma. Towards the beginning of one of my campaigns, a devote female follower of Selune had became friends with, a male wizard. This relationship eventually blossomed beyond friendship and they became an item. Along the way he uncovered knowledge of an alternate way to power his spells. He chose to tap the Shadow Weave and become a Shadow Adept - like others in his family, but never really held any true devotion to Shar except for a weak admiration because she was prominent in his family and player character's created background. Ten levels down the road, he has become increasingly seduced by Shar's temptations of greater power if he would just succumb to her will and choose her as his deity - which would mean he would have to kill a follower of Selune to seal the deal, or corrupt his love to join him at Shar's side. (a move that would seem truly meek and hopeless of course) The follower of Selune just recently found out that her love is "falling" more into Shar's clutches through her church, The House of the Moon in Waterdeep. She was put through a private trial by the peers in her clergy to see if she should be removed from her station because of her association with a follower of Shar. Someone she has known for years and can not really change her emotions about suddenly after finding out this devastating news. On the surface it appears she is willing to give the potential Shar worshiper the benefit of the doubt because of her feelings for him and their bond but deep down she feels betrayed and really confused. Based off of the situation and Selune's dogma would you have her peers find her guilty and excommunicate her from the clergy in the town? Or would they see how life changes just like the moon wax's and wanes - and let her choose her own fate, guided by Selune and keep a close watch on her? Perhaps something entirely different?
Alediran 10-22-07, 01:34 PM	What most Selunites would do first is try to rescue the falling wizard from the clutches of Shar, after all you can be a Shadow Adept without worshiping Shar. What I would do if they managed to rescue the wizard is first send wave after wave of shar followers to kill him, if they can't then Shar decides to separate him from the Shadow Weave. By losing his powers he can finally see that Shar is not what seemed to be and after that goes to find a way to restore his connection to the Weave, something that would be seen as a full redemption.
Lord Karsus 10-22-07, 04:20 PM	Based off of the situation and Selune's dogma would you have her peers find her guilty and excommunicate her from the clergy in the town? Or would they see how life changes just like the moon wax's and wanes - and let her choose her own fate, guided by Selune and keep a close watch on her? Perhaps something entirely different? -I'd vote the latter.
drizzt420 10-22-07, 04:42 PM	What most Selunites would do first is try to rescue the falling wizard from the clutches of Shar, after all you can be a Shadow Adept without worshiping Shar. What I would do if they managed to rescue the wizard is first send wave after wave of shar followers to kill him, if they can't then Shar decides to separate him from the Shadow Weave. By losing his powers he can finally see that Shar is not what seemed to be and after that goes to find a way to restore his connection to the Weave, something that would be seen as a full redemption. The first part of your post is a given and yes will potentially occur in my game and the rest is a really good suggestion that I have also considered - thank you. However, how would you vote if you were on the panel, representing the clergy of Selune? Guilty or innocent?
MattBlacke 10-22-07, 08:28 PM	Make it close, but have them vote to let her keep her station, IF she completes some quest, yada yada, plot hook.
MerrikCale 10-22-07, 08:56 PM	This is one situation that cannot be tolerated by the ordinarily tolerant faith. The PC should be excommunicated and agents of the faith should be dispatched to to elimate this threat. This is a wizard who has given himself to the hated enemy. And this wizard has access to a cleric of Selune. This cannot be allowed to continue.
Mula 10-24-07, 12:01 AM	I don't think Selune or her clergy would excommunicate a priest on the basis of LOVING someone who is beginning to follow Shar (and stress "beginning"). Excommunication should be a very rare happenstance in a chaotic church like Selune's. The idea behind CG in D&D is flexibility and open-heartedness; lawful churches would be more prone to judge their members. Selune's priests can assess each situation individually without resorting to some age-old dogma. The wizard can still be saved, and that should be #1 priority in this case. If the priest was excommunicated, it would only make things worse - maybe even drive the priestess to Shar, in the absolute worse scenario! (In my game, there wouldn't have been any hearing in the first place. :P In a Tyrran temple, sure, but not Selune.)
The_Shaman 10-24-07, 04:50 AM	I think an excommunication might be a bit too much, but the cleric would be told in no uncertain terms that this situation is untenable and that she should do something about that guy. Ideally, this would mean having him renounce Shar and (if possible) the Shadow Weave for good measure. There is probably some fancy ritual to bring someone back to the Weave, at least as the DM you can cook something up. If it proves impossible, however, as a servant of Selune she should deal with him as she would with any follower of Shar of this power. Not doing either would be a gross misconduct for her and would most likely result in loss of at least some divine powers until she has atoned for her failure. She might also be questioned - magically or not - to see if she did all she was not his accomplice in such way. Of course, knowingly allowing an associate to become a follower of Shar would immediately mean revocation of powers - and likely punishment - from Selune, so the questioning will probably take the form of a ritual proving her favor with the goddess or a divination asking Selune (or one of her celestial servants) whether that priestess did any wrong.
drizzt420 10-24-07, 01:24 PM	Thanks for the detailed responses guys and gals - I really do appreciate it. This was an argument my group and I had after one of our games concluded a couple weeks ago. I chose to not have have the church excommunicate the cleric under the pretense that she do all she can to help her "love" and that the clergy would be keeping a close eye on the situation. The wizard PC of Shar was totally for her being given the boot - possibly making his job of corrupting her to Shar easier. On the other hand, the cleric NPC of Selune is also allied with Xale of the Knights of the Blue Moon in Waterdeep - who have been known to save followers of Shar and bring Shadow Weave users back to the Weave - so that is a direction that could be taken if the PC decides he wants to go evil/Shar or be saved and remain with his girl who will, in the long run, either help him or leave him. It is all in the PC's hands now, he needs to decide his course of action. EDIT: Another question I have: If the PC was turned back to the Weave, what would happen to his Shadow Adept classes. I thought about a possible ritual that would essentially convert his Shadow Adept levels to Wizard but was wondering what the rules dictated.
Alediran 10-24-07, 01:29 PM	I would delete his Shadow Adept levels but would keep the experience he has, thus allowing him to take levels in wizard or another prestige class that is apropiate to him.
MerrikCale 10-24-07, 10:08 PM	I don't think Selune or her clergy would excommunicate a priest on the basis of LOVING someone who is beginning to follow Shar (and stress "beginning"). Excommunication should be a very rare happenstance in a chaotic church like Selune's. The idea behind CG in D&D is flexibility and open-heartedness; lawful churches would be more prone to judge their members. Selune's priests can assess each situation individually without resorting to some age-old dogma. The wizard can still be saved, and that should be #1 priority in this case. If the priest was excommunicated, it would only make things worse - maybe even drive the priestess to Shar, in the absolute worse scenario! (In my game, there wouldn't have been any hearing in the first place. :P In a Tyrran temple, sure, but not Selune.) I think you are wrong. Perhaps if it involved another evil church I would agree but I would Selune clergy have a different view point when it comes to Shar.
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 10:32 PM	I'd be utterly evil about it. Give her a simple task "You made no mistake in love. However, you let this go too far. Shar's worship is the ultimate evil in the Realms. Your assignment for atonement is to deal with this situation. Either break Shar's hold over him or destroy his power to aid her cause."
Mula 10-24-07, 11:48 PM	I think you are wrong. Perhaps if it involved another evil church I would agree but I would Selune clergy have a different view point when it comes to Shar. If you have Faiths & Avatars, read the Selune section. :)
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 12:14 AM	If you have Faiths & Avatars, read the Selune section. :) Oh, Selune's all about the fluffy bunnies and redemption. They also kill every single Sharist they can lay their hands on and do their best to root it out with extreme force. It's like Elistraea and drow of lolth. maximum prejudice with a nice hand.
MerrikCale 10-25-07, 08:18 PM	They also kill every single Sharist they can lay their hands on and do their best to root it out with extreme force. exactly. The Swords of the Lady would hunt him down
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 08:54 PM	Yes, it's the irony. The Selunites understand the pain and loss of the Sharists more than anyone. That's, ironically, what makes them the most commited in all the Realms to their destruction.
Lobotaru 10-25-07, 08:55 PM	Being a good deity and thus the clergy being good, I'd imagine them being pretty forgiving of such a mistake. They'd probably suggest trying to help the wizard see the error of his ways, but I doubt they'd force anything onto her. The cleric player character would probably feel some obligation to try to save her friend all on her own. Most importantly they are not going to judge the cleric for the evils someone she thought she knew and trusted has done. That would be guilty by association, which is more the reaction of angry mobs rather than a sensible and good hearted clergy.
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 09:09 PM	I think there's something to also be said for the Good Folk not necessarilly going to take this on faith. They're probably going to ask for some proof that she's not going to be back away when the Wizard turns fully to evil. All of reality is at stake and using Shar's power is EVIL and serves the ULTIMATE evil as far as the Selunites are concerned. It's like asking "It's okay, Mystran Priest, loving a Priest of Cyric isn't that bad."
MerrikCale 10-25-07, 11:05 PM	All of reality is at stake and using Shar's power is EVIL and serves the ULTIMATE evil as far as the Selunites are concerned. Exactly. I still think they would excommunicate the priestess but I'm sure they would attempt to destroy the wizard
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 11:13 PM	Given Selune's numbers, I think excommunication is only done if she is unrepentent. (Very much the Catholic stance) She'd be censured and probably sent out to deal with the problem.
Mula 10-26-07, 12:23 AM	She'd be excommunicated just because she's fallen in love with a man who's turned to Shar for more power? What?! That is not Selune's faith - that's something more in line for Helm or Tyr. Selune's faith is a very personal affair, the church has an almost nonexistent hierarchy, or at least it's a very loose one. Selune is the one who decides what act transgresses her limits, not the other priests - only Selune herself "excommunicates" anyone, and that would be very rare considering her open-minded attitude. Love is a beautiful thing, and it's a power strong enough to turn someone away from Shar. :) (If not, then destroy.) Instead of excommunicating her, the priests of the temple should be HELPING her!
Charles Phipps 10-26-07, 12:29 AM	Love is a beautiful thing, and it's a power strong enough to turn someone away from Shar. (If not, then destroy.) Uhmmm, dude, the guy has turned to Shar after being in love with her. The Shadow Weave is worse than vampirism. It's helping Shar gain power enough to destroy all of creation. The Selunites will definitely be sympathetic and ask her if she needs any help killing the abomination that used to be her lover.
Mula 10-26-07, 01:11 AM	Yeah, the "love is a yada yada" was just there for the cheesy effect. :) In any case, I really can't see the temple excommunicating the priestess. Again, if it was a Tyrran temple, sure, maybe. Even Mystra, but not Selune.
Charles Phipps 10-26-07, 01:21 AM	I say that if she carried on the relationship despite knowing he was a Shadow Weave user and continued with him, enabling his horrific blasphemy, then yes that's a Selunite excommunication offense. However, if she came to them with proof then it's different.
olympos 10-26-07, 07:14 AM	In "Magic Of Faerun" it reads that there is no known way that a Shadow Weave user could draw upon the Weave again. Although a WISH, MIRACLE or similar magic might work. In my opinion it should therefore be a major quest for the wizard (and the cleric) to leave Shar and Shadow Magic behind.Perhaps than somebody could work a spell on his behalf.
MerrikCale 10-26-07, 08:51 PM	Uhmmm, dude, the guy has turned to Shar after being in love with her. The Shadow Weave is worse than vampirism. It's helping Shar gain power enough to destroy all of creation. The Selunites will definitely be sympathetic and ask her if she needs any help killing the abomination that used to be her lover. exactly. The Swords of the Lady would hunt him down for sure
The_Shaman 10-27-07, 06:57 PM	They might, but I still think she'll be asked to try to fix the problem herself. If she has problems or it looks like she is unwilling, the swords will probably take over. It's not exactly the way Selune's worshippers prefer to do things, but they can make a lot of exceptions from their usual practices where Sharrans are involved.
MerrikCale 11-02-07, 11:05 PM	It's not exactly the way Selune's worshippers prefer to do things, but they can make a lot of exceptions from their usual practices where Sharrans are involved. thats my point. any other evil deity like Cyric or Bane, the selunites would perhaps be a little forgiving. There is no wiggle room where Shar is concerned.
Mula 11-02-07, 11:25 PM	So a Selunite temple "excommunicates" a priest. Meaning what? She's no longer a part of the church? Does Selune grant her spells? She's not pleased with the priestess because she hasn't killed the wizard yet?
Charles Phipps 11-03-07, 12:04 AM	Selune would stop granting her spells only when she proved she was choosing the Sharists' love over her faith. Excommunication basically means "Pass around this info. Luna Moonsnuggler is not to be trusted or given any succor."
MerrikCale 11-03-07, 10:35 AM	Selune would stop granting her spells only when she proved she was choosing the Sharists' love over her faith. Excommunication basically means "Pass around this info. Luna Moonsnuggler is not to be trusted or given any succor." Agreed. Just because a Church throws you out does not necessarily mean the deity has abandoned you as well.
The_Shaman 11-03-07, 12:06 PM	Not technically, but in this case I'd say it's practically guarangeed : if Selunites excommunicated someone, I don't imagine that person would be in Selune's good graces. It's not one of the very structured churches where you can mess up for getting drunk or making out with the High Prelate's niece. If the church actually went through the hassle to formally excommunicate someone, it would a very, vary rare situation. OTOH, in case of such a transgression Selune may stop granting her any spells before anyone in the church goes through all the ceremonies. From a RP perspective, I don't think it will even go that far - I just can't imagine Selune being unconcerned on the issue. In principle, even for a low-level acolyte, she might decide to pay the matter enough personal interest to communicate with her - anything from a dream message to signs of displeasure to a message from one of her servants. This isn't an acolyte, however - given what the OP mentioned about the mage's level, the cleric's level will also be in the mid- or high teens. In gameworld terms, this means that this priestess is likely among the Moonmaiden's most powerful and favored (mortal) servants - clerics of levels 10+ are not commonplace in any church, and those in levels over 15 are much more rare. Chances are, the goddess will not just stand by in this situation: she has been served much too long and invested way too much power in that cleric to not care about what happens here, especially when Shar is involved. I'm betting a cookie that the character won't need a phylactery of faithfulness to know what Selune's thinking on the matter - the goddess has either contacted her already or will do it really soon, and she won't mince words. P.S.: One could argue that the only explanation for Selune's possible silence is that this is a test for the cleric, but I think the situation is much too serious to be a test.
Charles Phipps 11-03-07, 08:36 PM	Well, the historical role of Excommunication is something I use in my game. Basically, it's not "YOU ARE DAMNED IN THE EYES OF GOD!" While that's pretty cool, it's actually more the equivalent of official censure. Excommunication (while the toughest thing today) was actually BELOW the punishment of being named a heretic or blasphemer, which could get you killed. In my campaign, the Risen Sun heretics have been excommunicated from the Church of Lathander. In other words, they're not to be treated as members of Lathander's clergy. None of the Lathanderites believe the other are EVIL but they believe they cannot in good conscience work towards what they percieve as a falsehood. It's an order to "shape up or get out." Of course, there's a Realmsversion of Excommunication that works much more dramatically. Cadderly branded this no good betrayer of his order with a "Mark of Damnation" basically that caused everyone of Deneir's allied churches to look on in utter and complete horror. That clearly isn't the case here but it would definitely be something the Church could give someone whom they couldn't turn over to the authorities for whatever reason but had moved from 'person outside of the Church' to outright apostate. That's the Realms version of being branded a heretic.
Mula 11-04-07, 12:00 AM	“The enmity between Shar and Selûne carries into their priesthoods, such that open battle often occurs when followers of each faith meet.” Often, not always. “The demands she places on her followers are few –“ “Selûne’s ethos seems to be one of acceptance and tolerance over any other overriding principle.” “’Trust in my radiance, and know that all love alive under my light shall know my blessing.’” “Our Lady of Silver is inclined to be lenient in matters of alignment and religious observance.” “All are to be made welcome in her faith and seen as equal, and fellow Selûnites should be aided freely, as if they were one’s dearest friends.” The individualistic nature of the church and the loose hierarchy are stressed. So, the wizard is seduced by the power offered by Shar, and is beginning to fall into Shar’s hands. As I’ve stated earlier, Selûne’s clergy is too loose to excommunicate anyone. It’s not an organized church at all—the faith is a very personal one, as is appropriate for a chaotic deity. The other priests would certainly not JUDGE her, because that is one of the defining features of a lawful church. The priests in Waterdeep would help her instead; aid the priestess in converting the wizard and persuading him to abandon Shar. Selûne is not blinded by some crazed rage whenever one of her followers faces Shar’s influence—and I stress “influence”, because the wizard hasn’t chosen Shar as his patron deity. The fellow priests are supposed to HELP when these kinds of situations arise. “Dearest friends” in a chaotic church don’t judge others but help instead. They can assess each situation individually, and common sense is supposed to be one of their strongest aspects. If the priests in Waterdeep turned their backs on the priestess, how exactly would they follow Selûne’s dogma of acceptance, tolerance, and being there when you most need the help? If they told her that she’s somehow offended Selûne and them by CARING about a man who’s been seduce by Shar, they’d just drive her away from their counsel and possibly make the situation even worse. Friends don’t do that.
Charles Phipps 11-04-07, 02:09 AM	If the priests in Waterdeep turned their backs on the priestess, how exactly would they follow Selûne’s dogma of acceptance, tolerance, and being there when you most need the help? Actually, I think it's more the case that they'd have a much worse reaction than anger. They'd have a reaction of pity, sadness, and probably bemusement. Because, ALL of the Selunites will EXPECT the woman to DESTROY the wizard who was her former lover. Either that or compell him to forsake magic forever. The problem is that you're assuming that the Selunites by embracing their sister are by necessity doing the same for her lover. No, he dies and everything will depend on how that's dealt with. The Shadow Weave and it's practioners must be destroyed at all costs. Now, is that an extreme reaction from such normally peace loving folk? Yes, however Shar is what invokes it. How will she react to this situation? Will she raise arms against her sisters? Will she defend her lover? Will she state "Oh, he's just using the power of our most hated and dreadful foe. That's not so bad!" THEN we're talking excommunication. Right now, it's a case of her probably being looked at as a fool for missing her lover's degeneration into (as the Selunites see it) madness.
Neutronium_Dragon 11-04-07, 09:28 AM	Yeah. They'll certainly keep an eye on her (just to make sure she's not complicit somehow), but excommunication is a bit much for merely having been played for a fool - which is more or less her situation. And since the mage hasn't fully gone over yet, it's more likely they'll be trying to arrange a "crisis intervention" rather than just up and killing him. It's better to turn him away from that dark path if they can (and thus keep his soul out of Shar's clutches in the process).
MerrikCale 11-11-07, 11:07 PM	Yeah. They'll certainly keep an eye on her (just to make sure she's not complicit somehow), but excommunication is a bit much for merely having been played for a fool - which is more or less her situation. And since the mage hasn't fully gone over yet, it's more likely they'll be trying to arrange a "crisis intervention" rather than just up and killing him. It's better to turn him away from that dark path if they can (and thus keep his soul out of Shar's clutches in the process). nah. methinks they'd just off him
Mula 11-12-07, 01:18 PM	Yeah, good is all about killing the opposition... :rolleyes:
The_Shaman 11-13-07, 08:51 PM	In a few rare cases, it can get there. I picture Selunites as benevolent and slightly off - given to prophesizing, spirituality and the kind of eccentric absent-mindedness one associates with a slightly daft old aunt. However, give them a whiff of Sharrans and they become different people: zealous, single-minded, and merciless. It's almost as if they can't help themselves - theirs is the most ancient struggle between light and darkness on Toril. The primal conflict, as it were.
Mula 11-13-07, 11:46 PM	Yes, some of them are like that, sure, but others are much more benevolent. Selunites are a varied bunch.
The_Shaman 11-14-07, 07:30 AM	Generally that's true, but I still think they are of one opinion regarding Shar. BTW, I didn't mean that they become heartless towards everyone in pursuit of Sharrans, but that they are not likely to show any minion of the Lady of Loss forgiveness or pity.
MerrikCale 11-14-07, 10:58 PM	Generally that's true, but I still think they are of one opinion regarding Shar. BTW, I didn't mean that they become heartless towards everyone in pursuit of Sharrans, but that they are not likely to show any minion of the Lady of Loss forgiveness or pity. thats my thinking exactly. To them, Shar is more than just evil
Mula 11-15-07, 01:02 PM	The wizard in question was not a "minion" of Shar, though. A person being seduced by her power, yes, but not an outright follower. Most followers of Selune would try to persuade him to abandon Shar, not kill first and question later. Besides, the more fanatical Selunites do not make up the whole of the church, as it's just an affiliated order, the Swords of the Lady, the Lunatics.
MerrikCale 11-15-07, 01:19 PM	The wizard in question was not a "minion" of Shar, though. A person being seduced by her power, yes, but not an outright follower. Most followers of Selune would try to persuade him to abandon Shar, not kill first and question later. depends on how far along he is in the indoctrination and what they know. But I feel many Selunites deem worship of Shar as an unforgivable offense.
Mula 11-15-07, 01:27 PM	I'm sure many do, but then there are those who are more willing to forgive and be more compassionate. As said, followers of Selune vary greatly in outlook. :)
The_Shaman 11-15-07, 08:21 PM	Ah, if you mean this wizard in particular, I agree that they would prefer it if he could simply be turned away from Shar if it's possible. In the last few statements, I made a clarification that only in a "rare few cases" would they be unwilling to show mercy or pity - say, when they are dealing with an actual cleric of shar or one of the dark moon monks (who aren't much better). I meant simply that most Selunites can agree that there are minions of Shar should be given no quarter, not that this is the case here.
MerrikCale 11-15-07, 09:28 PM	I meant simply that most Selunites can agree that there are minions of Shar should be given no quarter, not that this is the case here. again I agree. I had assumed the wizard was firmly in shar's corner so to speak