Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Todesherr 03-06-08, 08:12 AM	I mean, I guess we will be seeing LE paladins of Bane and CG paladins of Tymora and CE paladins of Lolth and LN paladins of Kelemvor and N paladins of Silvanus and NG Paladins of Chauntea and CN paladins of Tempus and NE paladins of Shar... Torm was the god of paladins because in a way he was also the god of lawful and good behaviour, a god of lawful goodness. With the alignment restiction gone, I will be sad to see him lose that role. Sure he'll have his LG paladins but they won't be paladins in the classical sense anymore. I think this whole simplication for 'newbies' is ridiculous. Who the hell ever heard of a CN paladin?:eek: :mad:
Kenzuki 03-06-08, 08:18 AM	Paladins of Neutral and Chaotic Good Alignment don't bother me. It's the evil paladins I find disturbing. Can't they call them Blackguards?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-06-08, 11:24 AM	I think this is mainly a matter of personal taste. Personally, I prefer that the word "paladin" be used to describe only LG paladins because that's what I'm used to. Others don't think the definition of "paladin" needs to be so narrow.
Valgard 03-06-08, 12:22 PM	I mean, I guess we will be seeing LE paladins of Bane and CG paladins of Tymora and CE paladins of Lolth and LN paladins of Kelemvor and N paladins of Silvanus and NG Paladins of Chauntea and CN paladins of Tempus and NE paladins of Shar... I think it's just worse than that. We will be seeing Good paladins, Evil paladins, Lawful paladins, Chaotic paladins and, the vast majority and worst of all, unaligned paladins... and probably, these latter ones will be of any deity. Silly, stupid new alignment system. :mad:
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 01:15 PM	-The class should just be changed to 'Champions', 'Crusaders', or something to that effect, with LG Champions Paladins, LE Champions Blackguards, and everything else running the gamut having a different name.
SmartPaladin 03-06-08, 01:15 PM	Honestly? I don't mind the new alignment system that much. Sure, I think more along the Good-Evil, Law-Chaos spectrum, but I find that one to be a bit more realistic. But as it stands, there's no real law saying you can't keep the Law and Chaos alignments. You don't really have to use the whole 4E D&D stuff. Take what you like, class updates, race updates, whatever, and toss out what you don't like. It quick, it's simple, it's easy. As for Torm, I think he'll still be the deity of Paladins. Good Paladins, though just because he is the deity of Paladins, didn't mean that those who could have Paladins didn't. Tyr had how many? What about Sune, she had a good number. So all and all, I say don't worry and don't sweat.
1 ton ghost 03-06-08, 01:44 PM	there were Anti-Paladins once upon a time (2nd ed). basically, they were the simple, and easy to use dynamic opposite of their normal cousins. that is, Lay on Hands could deal dmg, Remove Disease to Inflict, etc. wonder why they never did anything like that? don't say Blackguard cuz' it was poorly written out and is a PrC not a base class.
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 01:48 PM	wonder why they never did anything like that? don't say Blackguard cuz' it was poorly written out and is a PrC not a base class. -The Blackguard was the intended Anti-Paladin.
GreenKnight 03-06-08, 08:31 PM	Torm's hardly the first god to be the patron of a character class which allowed for characters with alignments diametrically opposed to that of the god, so I really don't see the problem here, or why Torm still can't be God of Paladins. If Mielikki can be God of Rangers, even though some Rangers are Lawful Evil or Chaotic Evil, then Torm can continue to be the God of Paladins, even though some of them will no longer be Lawful Good.
Kiioro 03-06-08, 08:40 PM	I basically got sick when someone intended to play as a paladin. But sick in a way that included admiration for the character. Someone to devote their lives for a good cause. Their sacrifice and steady work and (theoretically) unbreakable spirit was something that made the paladin and his abilities stand out. So I think that if paladins of any alignment are cheap. Maybe Torm's portfolios could change, as to still being the patron of paladins (things that include 'devotion to a cause' and so forth, for example).
Khaelieth 03-07-08, 09:06 AM	Only had one bad experience with paladins - their detect evil ability. A player over-abused it. No, he raped it. But as LK says, the class is called paladin as a catchall, evil ones are blackguards/anti-paladings, others can be crusaders, champions, holy knights etc.
Kiioro 03-07-08, 12:02 PM	Only had one bad experience with paladins - their detect evil ability. A player over-abused it. No, he raped it. Oh, you mean the DM: You see an amount of large stones on top of each other, part of what was the castle wall, and-- PALADIN: I detect evil! Kind of thing?
Draco Spirit 03-07-08, 12:28 PM	I think it's just worse than that. We will be seeing Good paladins, Evil paladins, Lawful paladins, Chaotic paladins and, the vast majority and worst of all, unaligned paladins... and probably, these latter ones will be of any deity. Silly, stupid new alignment system. :mad: You know what yo do if someone says there playing a unaligned paladin... "Your god removes your divine granted powers, since he believes you don't have the backbone to use them" :D
SmartPaladin 03-07-08, 02:46 PM	Only had one bad experience with paladins - their detect evil ability. A player over-abused it. No, he raped it. But as LK says, the class is called paladin as a catchall, evil ones are blackguards/anti-paladings, others can be crusaders, champions, holy knights etc.Oh, you mean the DM: You see an amount of large stones on top of each other, part of what was the castle wall, and-- PALADIN: I detect evil! Kind of thing? Thank lord I never played like that... Seriously, that'd be like the Paladin walking into his parents house and and doing "Detect Evil" on them as soon as he see's them. Sometimes in life, it's better not to know. Though the real fun doesn't start until your Paladin has found true love... In the arms of someone he doesn't know is evil yet (If a DM makes you fall for that, regardless of whether or not your Paladin knew they were evil, then that's just poor DMing). Only thing that makes it better, is if that evil person your Paladin is in love with, is in love with the Paladin as well. There's a romantic tragedy just waiting to happen.
1 ton ghost 03-08-08, 12:46 AM	any thoughts on the Paladins of Tyrrany and Slaughter (Unearthed Arcana)? i liked 2nd ed's Anti-Paladin as a base class. seemed an easy means to a dyanmic opposite. flip flop powers and alignment, no fuss, no muss. BlackGuard as intended? i don't know. it's a PrC, has different prerequisites, different Sp's and Su's that aren't simple opposites as the preceeding. they even reward fallen paladins, but there are no provision for redeemed anti-paladins that go good, etc. for what it's worth, my boy got the EQ Player's Guide years ago and the Shadowknight is a fairly close approximation considering d20 rules and all as a starting class. not pure to the letter of the WotC mantra, but a good start. i just want a simple polar opposite, but i despise the new way of a Paladin for every alignment. robs them of their majesty and pinache. Dect.Evil; -you could argue that such blatant misuse of the (Su) (or is it an [Sp]?) on any old guy is akin to an invasion of privacy. bit unlawful so to speak. a stretch i know, but something to put a leash on metagaming. -consider the Paladin distracted (minus to Spot/Listen) when using it -is it a Move Action to concentrate while it's in play? Torm is not the god of paladins. a title, nothing more. Tyr's got 'em, Helm's got 'em, Kelemvor, etc. if there were a singular "god of paladins", he'd be Lawful Good and more, uh, paladin-esque.
Lord Karsus 03-08-08, 12:49 AM	any thoughts on the Paladins of Tyrrany and Slaughter (Unearthed Arcana)? -I dislike them because, as I stated above, Paladins are Lawful and Good. It's kinda a prerequisite. The concepts themselves are fine, but a better name is needed. Hence, just renaming the entire class 'Crusader', 'Holy Warrior', or whatever, and giving the different subclasses within that different names.
Khaelieth 03-08-08, 09:19 AM	Thank lord I never played like that... Seriously, that'd be like the Paladin walking into his parents house and and doing "Detect Evil" on them as soon as he see's them. Sometimes in life, it's better not to know. Though the real fun doesn't start until your Paladin has found true love... In the arms of someone he doesn't know is evil yet (If a DM makes you fall for that, regardless of whether or not your Paladin knew they were evil, then that's just poor DMing). Only thing that makes it better, is if that evil person your Paladin is in love with, is in love with the Paladin as well. There's a romantic tragedy just waiting to happen. Amulets of Undetectable Alignment. Evil's not stupid! But it was much like above, but "You walk down the corri-" "i detect evil!"
Lord Karsus 03-08-08, 10:01 AM	But it was much like above, but "You walk down the corri-" "i detect evil!" -That's when you start house ruling that the more it's used, the weaker it begins, unless the Paladin in question can give it some time to 'recharge'. I did something like that with a character who could cast Detect Magic at will, and was starting to abuse it.
SmartPaladin 03-08-08, 02:24 PM	Amulets of Undetectable Alignment. Evil's not stupid! Aye, Evil is not at that. And when it is Stupid, it's painfully stupid... Kinda like Good. Though there's always that one smart Good to mess with Evils plan. :P
The Ubbergeek 03-08-08, 02:25 PM	I like those non-LG paladins. It's just a ridiculous question around semantic, really. Champions, if you prefer. Game terms =/= in world terms, also.
Lord Karsus 03-08-08, 02:29 PM	Aye, Evil is not at that. And when it is Stupid, it's painfully stupid... Kinda like Good. Though there's always that one smart Good to mess with Evils plan. :P -Good thing the SmartPaladin was here to straighten all of that out. ;) Game terms =/= in world terms, also. -Right. In game terms, a Paladin must be Lawful and Good. It says right there, in the Player's Handbook. Thus, the variants in Unearthed Arcana are not Paladins, but simply use the term.
SmartPaladin 03-08-08, 03:19 PM	-Good thing the SmartPaladin was here to straighten all of that out. ;) Me? Straighten out? Oh no, not me. I maybe smart, but I can still get easily confused. And I'm to curious for my own good... I'd be that Paladin who'd show up to stop some evil wizard/sorcerer/warlock/whatever, and get side tracked 'cause I'd wanna know how they were gonna go about taking over/destroying whatever... I'd still lay down the Justice and Retribution, but it never hurts to learn more about the world around you.
The Ubbergeek 03-08-08, 03:33 PM	-Right. In game terms, a Paladin must be Lawful and Good. It says right there, in the Player's Handbook. Thus, the variants in Unearthed Arcana are not Paladins, but simply use the term. They are... if you overrules core rules with UA. And so. And in fourth Ed, paladins or whatever wil be the new global, collective name for them. Again, semantic... *yawns* Seriously, it's cutting hairs...
SmartPaladin 03-08-08, 03:46 PM	Again, semantic... *yawns* Seriously, it's cutting hairs... Yup, and that just gives split ends. Sorry, couldn't help that one.
Lord Karsus 03-08-08, 03:54 PM	Me? Straighten out? Oh no, not me. I maybe smart, but I can still get easily confused. And I'm to curious for my own good... I'd be that Paladin who'd show up to stop some evil wizard/sorcerer/warlock/whatever, and get side tracked 'cause I'd wanna know how they were gonna go about taking over/destroying whatever... I'd still lay down the Justice and Retribution, but it never hurts to learn more about the world around you. -Good to know. They are... if you overrules core rules with UA. And so... -Of course, Unearthed Arcana contains optional rules. Core takes precidence.
SmartPaladin 03-08-08, 04:04 PM	-Good to know. -Of course, Unearthed Arcana contains optional rules. Core takes precidence. Why do I have a feeling when Lord Karsus goes to take over the Realms again, he'll be sure to have a lot of stuff out to sidetrack me... It'd be like "Stop Lord Kar- Oooo... What's that?!" I am the Paladin with ADD...
Todesherr 03-08-08, 08:46 PM	They are... if you overrules core rules with UA. And so. And in fourth Ed, paladins or whatever wil be the new global, collective name for them. Again, semantic... *yawns* Seriously, it's cutting hairs... En anglais...splitting hairs...
Lord Karsus 03-09-08, 08:39 AM	Why do I have a feeling when Lord Karsus goes to take over the Realms again, he'll be sure to have a lot of stuff out to sidetrack me... It'd be like "Stop Lord Kar- Oooo... What's that?!" I am the Paladin with ADD... -I am both hurt and saddened that you would attempt to stop me. Is taking over the Forgotten Realms 'bad'? Is it really? -But, if push comes to shove, I am armed with an entire bag of toys, to deal with you.
1 ton ghost 03-09-08, 12:54 PM	-I am both hurt and saddened that you would attempt to stop me. Is taking over the Forgotten Realms 'bad'? Is it really? -But, if push comes to shove, I am armed with an entire bag of toys, to deal with you. cute...but, uh, bear with me here, Karsus' Folly does come to mind and all.
The_Shaman 03-09-08, 04:37 PM	-The class should just be changed to 'Champions', 'Crusaders', or something to that effect, with LG Champions Paladins, LE Champions Blackguards, and everything else running the gamut having a different name. I concur.
Lord Karsus 03-09-08, 07:50 PM	cute...but, uh, bear with me here, Karsus' Folly does come to mind and all. -So, apparently trying to save tens of thousands of people from a war of aggression waged by evil 'aliens' is a bad thing, now...:rolleyes: (:P)
The_Shaman 03-09-08, 08:07 PM	The devil's in the details, you know :) You uber-epic archmages tend to miss some of them, at times.
Lord Karsus 03-09-08, 08:14 PM	-Yeah, yeah, yeah...And, don't ever say 'uber' when referencing me again. When I hear people use that term, I feel like punching them. I must have punch my sister like three times since I developed the urge. She knows not to use the term. :)
MaskedOne 03-10-08, 12:43 PM	-So, apparently trying to save tens of thousands of people from a war of aggression waged by evil 'aliens' is a bad thing, now...:rolleyes: (:P) No attempting to forcibly aquire the power of Lady Magic to do so instead of asking politely for assistance is a bad thing. Then again what can I say you're Netherese, 90% of your civilization was clueless when it came to divinities.
SmartPaladin 03-10-08, 02:07 PM	-I am both hurt and saddened that you would attempt to stop me. Is taking over the Forgotten Realms 'bad'? Is it really? -But, if push comes to shove, I am armed with an entire bag of toys, to deal with you. No, no. Don't be hurt. I just don't wanna wake up one day and see the Realms shattered and floating all over the cosmos... Because you know someone's going to get the bright idea that they know better then you, and will ether try to "fix" what you "broken" or just get rid of you. And I would like to miss that, thank you very much. I'm a rather selfish Paladin that way... 'sides, I enjoy all of the discussions we've had! I'd hate to have to fight you. :P
Lord Karsus 03-10-08, 05:26 PM	No attempting to forcibly aquire the power of Lady Magic to do so instead of asking politely for assistance is a bad thing. Then again what can I say you're Netherese, 90% of your civilization was clueless when it came to divinities. -I asked, and I'm sorry to put it like this MaskedOne, but the ***** ignored me and my people. I had to do what I had to do. No, no. Don't be hurt. I just don't wanna wake up one day and see the Realms shattered and floating all over the cosmos... -Would I do that to the Realms? 'sides, I enjoy all of the discussions we've had! I'd hate to have to fight you. :P -As do I. Why not join the Hands of Karsus, to be our moral beacon?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-10-08, 08:31 PM	-As do I. Why not join the Hands of Karsus, to be our moral beacon? But...I consider you our moral beacon.
Lord Karsus 03-10-08, 11:02 PM	But...I consider you our moral beacon. -Well, in that case...Sorry, SmartPaladin. We don't have any Paladins, though, so, while you won't be our moral beacon, you can still join. Think of it- less responsibilities, more free time.
SmartPaladin 03-11-08, 12:07 AM	-Well, in that case...Sorry, SmartPaladin. We don't have any Paladins, though, so, while you won't be our moral beacon, you can still join. Think of it- less responsibilities, more free time. That's alright. For a minute there, I thought I was going to have laugh in your face at being your "moral beacon". Just because I'm a Paladin, doesn't mean I'm a Knight in shining armor. I prefer dull grey, harder to spot. 'sides, I also enjoyed challenging the Bard and Rogue to wenching. What's the point of having all of that charisma if ya don't use it? :P But other then that, sure, why not? So long as you don't mind having to deal with a Hoarite with a strong sense of Justice.
Lord Karsus 03-11-08, 12:30 AM	'sides, I also enjoyed challenging the Bard and Rogue to wenching. What's the point of having all of that charisma if ya don't use it? :P -Two players in a campaign (one of the worst I was ever in, for the record) played a Tormite duo. A priest and a paladin. Both would go out drinking, get very drunk, and do uncharacteristic things. The priest, in the morning, would absolve the two of their sins, and be on with things. Creative, but...no. :nonono: But other then that, sure, why not? So long as you don't mind having to deal with a Hoarite with a strong sense of Justice. -Well, just sign on the dotted line, don't read the fine print, and we're all good... X_____________
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-11-08, 10:15 AM	-Two players in a campaign (one of the worst I was ever in, for the record) played a Tormite duo. A priest and a paladin. Both would go out drinking, get very drunk, and do uncharacteristic things. The priest, in the morning, would absolve the two of their sins, and be on with things. Creative, but...no. :nonono: Indeed.:nonono:
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 03-11-08, 10:50 AM	Thank lord I never played like that... Seriously, that'd be like the Paladin walking into his parents house and and doing "Detect Evil" on them as soon as he see's them. Sometimes in life, it's better not to know. Though the real fun doesn't start until your Paladin has found true love... In the arms of someone he doesn't know is evil yet (If a DM makes you fall for that, regardless of whether or not your Paladin knew they were evil, then that's just poor DMing). Only thing that makes it better, is if that evil person your Paladin is in love with, is in love with the Paladin as well. There's a romantic tragedy just waiting to happen. To talking about evil loving good... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a
Lord Karsus 03-11-08, 11:13 AM	Indeed.:nonono: -The same offender in the past was one of the duo, too. Go figure.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-11-08, 12:17 PM	-The same offender in the past was one of the duo, too. Go figure. LOL, geez, yeah, go figure. I hope they got what they deserved in the end.
Draco Spirit 03-11-08, 01:27 PM	To talking about evil loving good... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a Most stupid creature ever.. a LG demonic paladin!
SmartPaladin 03-11-08, 05:19 PM	-Two players in a campaign (one of the worst I was ever in, for the record) played a Tormite duo. A priest and a paladin. Both would go out drinking, get very drunk, and do uncharacteristic things. The priest, in the morning, would absolve the two of their sins, and be on with things. Creative, but...no. :nonono: See, now that's just stupid. Half the fun is going out, having a few with the rest of the Party, sing a few songs, see who can get the barmaids the most red without being vulgar. That kinda thing I enjoy, probably because I'm a flirt... If things were different, I'd have been a Paladin of Sune. :P -Well, just sign on the dotted line, don't read the fine print, and we're all good... X_____________ Oh no, the Devil's in the details. I'm Smart remember? I wanna know what's in the fine print or your going to have to continue to deal with me. Most stupid creature ever.. a LG demonic paladin! But... I love my Tiefling Fighter/Paladin/Gray Guard! A pain in the backside somedays, but still fun.
Lord Karsus 03-11-08, 05:32 PM	Oh no, the Devil's in the details. I'm Smart remember? I wanna know what's in the fine print or your going to have to continue to deal with me. -Eh, it's something about taking a portion of your soul, giving me your first born son, and other silly things like that. Ao made me put all of it in there. For Balance. You know. You do get a parking spot, and your own cubicle, though, so it all evens out.
SmartPaladin 03-11-08, 05:47 PM	-Eh, it's something about taking a portion of your soul, giving me your first born son, and other silly things like that. Ao made me put all of it in there. For Balance. You know. You do get a parking spot, and your own cubicle, though, so it all evens out. You'd have a easier time getting my whole soul then my first born son. I have no use for a parking spot or my own cubicle. So, I think I'll just give you a big fat No. Thank you for your oh so "kind" offer.
Lord Karsus 03-11-08, 05:53 PM	-Eh, you're loss.
SmartPaladin 03-11-08, 06:03 PM	-Eh, you're loss. Depends on your point of view... I don't care about myself so much as the fate of my Child. Sure, haven't had 'em yet, but I don't like knowing some fool's gonna show up and try to take him from me.
Kiioro 03-11-08, 07:23 PM	You could always have 2 children. Yeah, maybe you won't get the first one, but... it'll be quite fun to make sure the other one would still be on his/her way ñ_n
SmartPaladin 03-11-08, 07:59 PM	You could always have 2 children. Yeah, maybe you won't get the first one, but... it'll be quite fun to make sure the other one would still be on his/her way ñ_n I think not. I'd want my children to grow up safe and protected, and not under the watchful eye of some Wizard who thought it was a good idea to try and take the Power of the Goddess of Magic. I'd offer myself in slavery, if Lord Karsus would take me over my children...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-11-08, 08:01 PM	I'd offer myself in slavery, if Lord Karsus would take me over my children... Sorry, I'm already his Konsort.;)
Kiioro 03-11-08, 08:10 PM	Now that Ms. Fathomlin added that... SmartPaladin, please put my mind-pop-up-blocker at ease and tell me, TELL ME you didn't mean Lord Karsus in "taking you" as in... consort-like activities.
SmartPaladin 03-11-08, 08:12 PM	Sorry, I'm already his Konsort.;) Who said anything about being his "konsort"? I was thinking more like gladiator or something... Standard Cannon fodder. Go in, hack away a people, if I die, then it's no real loss. SmartPaladin, please put my mind-pop-up-blocker at ease and tell me, TELL ME you didn't mean Lord Karsus in "taking you" as in... consort-like activities. I mean it like paying off a debt. Look at it this way, I'd be hiring myself out. My life, for the life of my child. Or does the thought of such self sacrifice go against every thought in your head?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-11-08, 08:18 PM	Who said anything about being his "konsort"? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Just an innocent joke. At your expense. :)
SmartPaladin 03-11-08, 08:19 PM	:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Bloody children... Gonna drive me to drinking...
Kiioro 03-11-08, 08:21 PM	I can stand a concession to be had or for effort to be made, but sacrifice... The thought of sacrifice runs against pretty much everything I believe in. That's why I find it wise to leave the paladiny things to do in life to... well... paladins.
SmartPaladin 03-11-08, 08:24 PM	I can stand a concession to be had or for effort to be made, but sacrifice... The thought of sacrifice runs against pretty much everything I believe in. That's why I find it wise to leave the paladiny things to do in life to... well... paladins. Well, I'd never ask you to do anything you wouldn't be comfortable and happy to do anyway. I was always the hero, so being a Paladin was easy. Any time a child wades in between two fighting adults, just to drag their own child out from between them. Then you can be sure that they don't have all of their "dice" in the same "bag" as everyone else.
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 09:15 AM	Depends on your point of view... I don't care about myself so much as the fate of my Child. Sure, haven't had 'em yet, but I don't like knowing some fool's gonna show up and try to take him from me. -Don't worry about that one. I don't hire goons. I was going to, when I first set up shop, but I had some problems with the Goon Union. It costs me a little extra, but I make sure to keep good underlings handy. I think not. I'd want my children to grow up safe and protected, and not under the watchful eye of some Wizard who thought it was a good idea to try and take the Power of the Goddess of Magic. -What, you don't think I'd endanger them, do you? Puh-lease. I'm a good guy. Sorry, I'm already his Konsort -Hey, SP, if you have misgivings with me being around, she can raise the theoretical child!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-12-08, 01:32 PM	-Hey, SP, if you have misgivings with me being around, she can raise the theoretical child! Yes, and I'd do a find job of it, I'm sure.:) Nevertheless, I am moved that you, SP, would offer up your body in sacrifice to LK for his use.
SmartPaladin 03-13-08, 12:05 AM	-Don't worry about that one. I don't hire goons. I was going to, when I first set up shop, but I had some problems with the Goon Union. It costs me a little extra, but I make sure to keep good underlings handy. Whatever works. -What, you don't think I'd endanger them, do you? Puh-lease. I'm a good guy. Forgive me if I don't, believe you at the offset... Maybe after sometime, until then. I'll leave my family where they are. -Hey, SP, if you have misgivings with me being around, she can raise the theoretical child! That's true... Nevertheless, I am moved that you, SP, would offer up your body in sacrifice to LK for his use. I'd put myself in the way of an enraged mother Dire Bear just to save half of you people. Just because I don't know any of you that well, doesn't mean any of you should get mauled. As far as deaths go, not one of the best.
Lord Karsus 03-13-08, 12:13 AM	-I'll have a talk with Ao, schmooze a little, and see if I can get that particular requirement waived.
SmartPaladin 03-13-08, 01:26 PM	It is of no moment. We Hoarites are wanderer anyway, I might just stick around with you for the fun of it a little while, then pack up and move on.
Todesherr 03-13-08, 08:13 PM	-I'll have a talk with Ao, schmooze a little, and see if I can get that particular requirement waived. You know that schmooze (schmusen) in the original German means cuddle, don't you?
Lord Karsus 03-13-08, 08:51 PM	You know that schmooze (schmusen) in the original German means cuddle, don't you? -Yes, it's a Yiddish word that means, in the vernacular, to make small talk, and get on the good side of an individual. It's all interrelated.
Todesherr 03-14-08, 10:12 AM	-Yes, it's a Yiddish word that means, in the vernacular, to make small talk, and get on the good side of an individual. It's all interrelated. I know and I am a New Yorker; I have also studied German philology and know that it is all interrelated. Yiddish is Middle High German plus some weird vocabulary and grammar.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-14-08, 11:39 AM	You know that schmooze (schmusen) in the original German means cuddle, don't you? I still think it's an apt word to use.;)
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 11:59 AM	Yiddish is Middle High German plus some weird vocabulary and grammar. -Yes, it is German + Hebrew fused into one, with more of an emphasis on German than Hebrew.
SmartPaladin 03-14-08, 01:28 PM	-Yes, it is German + Hebrew fused into one, with more of an emphasis on German than Hebrew. Like Hitler? Sorry, couldn't help that one... But don't feel down Germen people! At least he had charisma...
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 03:17 PM	Like Hitler? Sorry, couldn't help that one... But don't feel down Germen people! At least he had charisma... -I don't even believe it is established fact that Hitler was of Jewish ancestry. He had a grandmother, or great-grandmother who had a Jewish last name, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Khaelieth 03-14-08, 03:33 PM	-I don't even believe it is established fact that Hitler was of Jewish ancestry. He had a grandmother, or great-grandmother who had a Jewish last name, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. He wasn't part Jewish, apparently.
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 03:50 PM	He wasn't part Jewish, apparently. -There you go, then.
SmartPaladin 03-14-08, 04:04 PM	Well, I never claimed to be right 100% of the time. Granted, anyone who takes anything I say as truth is a fool. We're all free to form our own thoughts thank you very much. And we are so off topic...
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 04:08 PM	And we are so off topic... -Well, being as that you said something, and you are a Paladin, you are always on topic in this thread.
SmartPaladin 03-14-08, 04:16 PM	-Well, being as that you said something, and you are a Paladin, you are always on topic in this thread. But I'm a Paladin of Hoar, not Torm. Granted, I like the Deity. I thought he was pretty cool in the Prince of Lies. He was also kinda fun in Tantras...
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 04:19 PM	But I'm a Paladin of Hoar, not Torm. Granted, I like the Deity. I thought he was pretty cool in the Prince of Lies. He was also kinda fun in Tantras... -A Paladin is a Paladin is a Paladin, unless they are not LG, in case they aren't Paladins.
SmartPaladin 03-14-08, 04:24 PM	-A Paladin is a Paladin is a Paladin, unless they are not LG, in case they aren't Paladins. I'm still of mind to call Paladins of the four corners of the alignment spectrum "Paladin's". I also don't mind the 4E Paladin's so much. As long as they can do their job. Hells, they could drop the name Paladin altogether and just call them Knights, and let the name Paladin be a Paragon path for those Good aligned "Knights".
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 04:34 PM	Hells, they could drop the name Paladin altogether and just call them Knights, and let the name Paladin be a Paragon path for those Good aligned "Knights". -That's what I propose they do.
SmartPaladin 03-14-08, 04:53 PM	-That's what I propose they do. Sounds like a plan to me. Though they'd have to redo all of the Paladin's powers if they went that way. And again, I don't really care one way or another. I look forward to what they've shown us so far, and though I wish they didn't do so much damage to this setting as they did. I won't sit up all night and whine about how X isn't Y like it used to be back in Z. The only thing that remains the same in Life it's self is Change.
Kiioro 03-15-08, 12:29 AM	The only thing that remains the same in Life itself is Change. Oh, young one, you haven't met the government, have you?
Dark Wizard 03-15-08, 12:48 AM	WotC seems hell bent on disrupting then redefining their long established IP and concepts. Eladrin become the new elves, despite over a decade of being a very distinct (cardinal) type of outsider. The changes to Tieflings and Dragonborn makes them entirely different concepts from their previous incarnations (can we even call them an incarnation anymore?). Then paladins become generic holy warriors, despite D&D helping found the modern fantasy concept of paladin (never mind most dictionary definitions and the literary/legendary inspirational sources). It even bucks most interpretations of 'paladin' from other popular franchises. I agree, better to go with a more generic name for the divine defender (knight, crusader, champion, etc.) and have paladins be the paragon path for a more specific archetype. It's one thing to slaughter sacred cows, but it's another to dilute established terminology. There is nothing wildly inappropriate about the established names and terminology, they are not faulty rules implementations (sacred cowish). This re-branding creates imprecisions leading to potential confusion and a weaker sense of a property in the mind of the player.
SmartPaladin 03-15-08, 02:19 AM	WotC seems hell bent on disrupting then redefining their long established IP and concepts. Eladrin become the new elves, despite over a decade of being a very distinct (cardinal) type of outsider. The changes to Tieflings and Dragonborn makes them entirely different concepts from their previous incarnations (can we even call them an incarnation anymore?). Then paladins become generic holy warriors, despite D&D helping found the modern fantasy concept of paladin (never mind most dictionary definitions and the literary/legendary inspirational sources). It even bucks most interpretations of 'paladin' from other popular franchises. I agree, better to go with a more generic name for the divine defender (knight, crusader, champion, etc.) and have paladins be the paragon path for a more specific archetype. It's one thing to slaughter sacred cows, but it's another to dilute established terminology. There is nothing wildly inappropriate about the established names and terminology, they are not faulty rules implementations (sacred cowish). This re-branding creates imprecisions leading to potential confusion and a weaker sense of a property in the mind of the player. In thinking it over, all they really did was just turn the name "Paladin" into the "Church Knight" for all of the Deities. Does it suck? Sure, but on the other hand... It's really not that bad of a change. Oh, young one, you haven't met the government, have you? Yes, as a matter of fact I have. That's why what I said still stands. One minute your fine, next minute your in the hole. Granted, it's a broken system. And one that will never be fixed until there's a bloody uprising and the second civil war breaks out. But even that might not give us a "better" government.
Lord Karsus 03-15-08, 11:13 AM	WotC seems hell bent on disrupting then redefining their long established IP and concepts. -This is the main thing I just don't understand.
Draco Spirit 03-15-08, 12:54 PM	-This is the main thing I just don't understand. Its going to be really anoying when you mention a idea to a dm.. "So I'm thinking of playing a tiefling boss" *rest of table make frizt jokes* "no, I mean I want to go for a ice devil decedent..." You know what I mean?
Todesherr 03-16-08, 12:13 AM	-Yes, it is German + Hebrew fused into one, with more of an emphasis on German than Hebrew. Actually there is more Slavic vocabulary in Yiddish than there is Hebrew.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-16-08, 06:55 PM	[QUOTE=Draco Spirit;15346867 "no, I mean I want to go for a ice devil decedent..." [/QUOTE] "Decedent?" That word refers to the deceased person in my line of work (dealing with wills).:)
Lord Karsus 03-17-08, 09:06 AM	Its going to be really anoying when you mention a idea to a dm.. "So I'm thinking of playing a tiefling boss" *rest of table make frizt jokes* "no, I mean I want to go for a ice devil decedent..." You know what I mean? -I...don't get it. Actually there is more Slavic vocabulary in Yiddish than there is Hebrew. -There's plenty of Hebrew in Yiddish. I don't know any Slavic at all, so I wouldn't be able to identify the few words I know that might be of Slavic origin, but I can identify the words that are of Hebrew and German origin, based on my limited understanding and knowledge of both languages.
msatran 03-17-08, 02:00 PM	It's worse than you think. No law, no chaos. Only Good, and Evil. the majority of people are unaligned. You can't have an unaligned paladin, so paladins are either Good, or Evil. Wow, when they said they were remaking the game for twelve year olds, they weren't kidding.
Lord Karsus 03-17-08, 04:59 PM	You can't have an unaligned paladin, so paladins are either Good, or Evil. -That's doable. I have no problems with that. I don't like calling Anti-Paladins/Blackguards Paladins, but whatever. It's a simple misnomer that can be corrected.
Rauric 03-17-08, 05:38 PM	Law/Chaos is uneeded and seems to cause confusion when people do use alignment. The last few campaigns I played in opted to ignore alignment. It got tough when creatures and items had alignment issues.
Lord Karsus 03-17-08, 05:58 PM	Law/Chaos is uneeded and seems to cause confusion when people do use alignment. -Keeping to a moral/law code, or not keeping to it is confusing? Eh, whatever...
Draco Spirit 03-17-08, 07:13 PM	Basicly what I'm trying to get at Lord Karsus is that with some of the revamps of races and classes in 4th edition, people will get confused exactly what your talking about when you mention a concept. I.e paladin. "I want to play a paladin" use to mean, I want to play LG holy warrior with a code, now means I want to play a divine champion who may be of any morality. Forgive the bad spelling!
Lord Karsus 03-17-08, 07:36 PM	Basicly what I'm trying to get at Lord Karsus is that with some of the revamps of races and classes in 4th edition, people will get confused exactly what your talking about when you mention a concept. I.e paladin. "I want to play a paladin" use to mean, I want to play LG holy warrior with a code, now means I want to play a divine champion who may be of any morality. -By needlessly changing many things, more confusion seems to be perpetuating itself. Forgive the bad spelling! -Only this once. Next time? No.
Kiioro 03-24-08, 02:14 AM	"no, I mean I want to go for a ice devil decedent..." Maybe it meant "descendent"? Anyway. The only problems I've seen about morality in D&D arise from the belief that "chaotic" means "errant and insane", while others sustain it means "ever-changing".
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-24-08, 11:56 AM	Maybe it meant "descendent"? I think so (did they really mean "ancestor"?)...but I found it hilarious. An ice devil "decedent" wouldn't be a threat to anyone.
Kiioro 03-24-08, 02:40 PM	Unless some guy came along and said something like "Rise from your grave!". Then we'd be in trouble.
Kiioro 03-26-08, 04:34 PM	Ehrm... by the way. Are there any sites where they say "This stuff we explain here is official and -as far as we know- be portrayed in 4E"? Or how do you know stuff like this? So far, my source are these forums, but all of you seem to know rather interesting things I don't know about...
Lord Karsus 03-26-08, 07:04 PM	Unless some guy came along and said something like "Rise from your grave!". Then we'd be in trouble. -Which is quite possible in a world that allows for the dead to rise from their graves. Ehrm... by the way. Are there any sites where they say "This stuff we explain here is official and -as far as we know- be portrayed in 4E"? Or how do you know stuff like this? So far, my source are these forums, but all of you seem to know rather interesting things I don't know about... -Asides for the development journals the designers keep (or, used to. I don't know if they do anymore), the Ask-the-Author thread, and the 4e preview books, no. All of that is straight from the proverbial horses mouth. Everything else, it's possible it's wrong.
Kiioro 03-27-08, 02:05 AM	"Rise from your grave!" were the words of Zeus in the game Altered Beast, 1988 (which I played later, emulated). Yeah, I read the "Ask the Authors", yet I don't think I have a good enough question, so, I leave it there. Thanks, Lord.
Lord Karsus 03-27-08, 02:06 AM	"Rise from your grave!" were the words of Zeus in the game Altered Beast, 1988 (which I played later, emulated). -Great game.
Kiioro 03-27-08, 02:11 AM	Unholy crap. That was a fast answer O_o
Lord Karsus 03-27-08, 02:15 AM	Unholy crap. That was a fast answer O_o -That's why I'm Lord Karsus. :cool:
Ulicus 04-01-08, 08:01 AM	-The class should just be changed to 'Champions', 'Crusaders', or something to that effect, with LG Champions Paladins, LE Champions Blackguards, and everything else running the gamut having a different name. QFT. I'm not willing to complain too much about 4th Ed, I've adopted a wait-and-see approach, but the way they've handled the "paladins of all alignments" thing really makes me want to groan. I couldn't care less about the class becoming broader and having many different variations... I do care when the term "paladin" is applied to the non-LG variations. It wouldn't be so bad if it were restricted to Core... but when you're introducing 4th Ed to existing campaign settings, where "paladin" has always meant one thing? Strikes me as silly. *Shrug*
Lord Karsus 04-01-08, 05:21 PM	I couldn't care less about the class becoming broader and having many different variations... I do care when the term "paladin" is applied to the non-LG variations. -Indeed, same here.
Zsych 04-05-08, 06:03 PM	I think that for the most part, serving an idea much larger than oneself, and having moral pride are things associated with goodness. Evil is supposed to be more self-centered. Not to say that there might not be exceptions, but I think that most paladins with their high and mighty attitudes should still fall under the LG class.
Lord Karsus 04-05-08, 10:26 PM	Evil is supposed to be more self-centered. -Of course, there are individuals such as the Sharrans. Prince Rivalen having hope that he would be Shar's Nightbringer, due to his pride, was what cost him his "downfall".
1red13 04-12-08, 06:33 PM	It seemed a little counter intuitive that Torm would be a god of paladins as i've always associated a paladin with the deity they served. Though if memory serves, when paladains first came out they were a class with specific abilities who were required to follow a very narrow code of conduct and weren't necessarily linked to a god.
Lord Karsus 04-12-08, 11:33 PM	Though if memory serves, when paladains first came out they were a class with specific abilities who were required to follow a very narrow code of conduct and weren't necessarily linked to a god. -In the Forgotten Realms, an individual who is granted Divine spells or class abilities requires a deity to grant them.
SmartPaladin 04-13-08, 10:37 AM	It seemed a little counter intuitive that Torm would be a god of paladins as i've always associated a paladin with the deity they served. Yes, but Torm had going for him the fact that he was once a mortal Paladin. So that gave him a slight leg up on a few of the others. Because, and I know my opinion of him is slightly skewed by the Atavtar... Whatever they want to call it. Unlike most deities of/for Paladin's, Torm has a sense of humor. And he's willing to work with someone evil, a lesser evil at that seeing as how it was Mask, if it means over throwing a psycho, evil, nutjob of a Deity. Though I honestly liked Cyric more when he was crazy. But then, I'm a Paladin of Hoar. So I'm a little odd...