Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Todesherr 02-07-08, 07:44 PM	think? Since there are going to be major pantheon changes and almost a hundred years shift forwards I am almost positive about it. Torm's is definitely going to change. What say ye?
The Ubbergeek 02-07-08, 09:26 PM	It's expected. A symbol is much alegory, symbolism and all... If a god change, so do his symbol. Look at Bane, past and present.
MarkusTay63 02-08-08, 12:17 PM	Also, I think they are trying to combine Pelor and Lathander, if not physically, then just as a set of identical mechanics - if thats the case, then it would make sense for the 'Sun God' to have a unified Holy Symbol. After all, just check out that priest in GHotR. ;)
Kenzuki 02-08-08, 06:14 PM	Lathander will be reborn as Amaunator. If not I'll be surprised considering how much they seem to be hinting at that. I think Torm should make his new holy symbol to resemble Helm's.
Gallameed 02-08-08, 07:19 PM	Lathander will be reborn as Amaunator. If not I'll be surprised considering how much they seem to be hinting at that. I hope this happens. Though I'd like to see a more NG sun god. If its true about 4th edition not bothering so much with alignment then even better. :)
sfdragon 02-08-08, 08:04 PM	lathander is ng, but he isnt a sun god, horus ra is.
Todesherr 02-08-08, 08:40 PM	lathander is ng, but he isnt a sun god, horus ra is. Maybe Lathander will become LG...combining both law and good.
Mula 02-08-08, 10:48 PM	Personally, I think Lathander's name will be changed to Pelor. Just makes sense. I also heard WotC's going to make sure all players and DMs will play in the current year, the Year of the Ageless One. If you don't, you're ruining D&D. And running it wrong.
Mula 02-08-08, 10:50 PM	Maybe Lathander will become LG...combining both law and good.... You just ruined my campaign. Thanks Wo.. I mean, Todesherr.
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 01:30 AM	-Based on the amount and level of change that will be happening, as well as 100 year+ time increase, I have no problems with holy (and unholy) symbols changing. Look at the real world? how many different versions of the cross have there been over the years? Plenty. Some deities already have 'older' holy (and unholy) symbols, so why not create more?
MarkusTay63 02-09-08, 02:33 AM	I also heard WotC's going to make sure all players and DMs will play in the current year, the Year of the Ageless One. If you don't, you're ruining D&D. And running it wrong. Well, if they plan on imprisoning everyone who doesn't comply, their going to need bigger offices... say something the size of... Texas :P
Alkasyn 02-10-08, 03:56 PM	I think Torm should make his new holy symbol to resemble Helm's. Theyre already neraly identical.
Todesherr 02-11-08, 11:00 PM	No, Torm's symbol should be something entirely new like: A Great Sword inbetween two gauntleted hands or the current symbol upon a shield or ...suggestions...?
The Ubbergeek 02-12-08, 12:01 AM	Fullplate-ed arm holding a longsword?
Lord Karsus 02-12-08, 12:10 AM	-Whatever it is, keep it simple. Sometimes I have a hard time believing that people are able to carve such complex things on a little piece of wood, or silver.
Red_Wizard 02-12-08, 10:01 AM	What? You mean It's not believable that Lanthaderites have the time to meticulously create various sized mosaics everywhere they travel? ;) :P -RW
The Ubbergeek 02-12-08, 12:30 PM	-Whatever it is, keep it simple. Sometimes I have a hard time believing that people are able to carve such complex things on a little piece of wood, or silver. You'd be surprised that what artisans can make when motivated... or just a talented local guy. ;) Like the scrimshaws (?), which is much an industry by icewind Dale. X3
Lord Karsus 02-12-08, 08:09 PM	What? You mean It's not believable that Lanthaderites have the time to meticulously create various sized mosaics everywhere they travel? ;) :P -RW -That's fine. It's holy symbols that I am speciically referencing. You'd be surprised that what artisans can make when motivated... or just a talented local guy. ;) Like the scrimshaws (?), which is much an industry by icewind Dale. X3 -The local guy using whatever machines they use, that's fine. But, when the Faerūnian guy, who doesn't have access to machines is able to put this kind of detail on a holy symbol, a piece of wood/silver about the size of a CD, at most?: http://www.goodvevil.com/wiki/images/4/41/Helm_symbol.jpghttp://www.rivin.de/contenido-4.4.4/cms/upload/deities/Eilistraee_symbol.jpg -A little hard to believe.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-12-08, 08:37 PM	I imagine that personal holy symbols can all be a bit different--for example, that very highly stylized symbol for Eilistraee can be shunned in favor of the much more simple moon with a sword crossed over it (as in the Lady Penitent novels).
Lord Karsus 02-12-08, 08:46 PM	I imagine that personal holy symbols can all be a bit different--for example, that very highly stylized symbol for Eilistraee can be shunned in favor of the much more simple moon with a sword crossed over it (as in the Lady Penitent novels). -See, I have no problem accepting that, but nothing actually goes as far as to actually say that.
The Ubbergeek 02-12-08, 08:52 PM	-The local guy using whatever machines they use, that's fine. But, when the Faerūnian guy, who doesn't have access to machines is able to put this kind of detail on a holy symbol, a piece of wood/silver about the size of a CD, at most?: 'primitive', pre-modern (arguably, masters of the arts) artisans can do wonder... Also, granted, less common and at an higher prices, but.... Considering how early, simple things like bilames(?) and stone weapons got in prehistoric times.... The helmite symbol seems not too hard, actually. The second, some more time and dexterity, but then... elves and drow.... We all too often see our distant ancestors as.... stunted without our marvellous mechanics. Think again.
Lord Karsus 02-12-08, 08:55 PM	'primitive', pre-modern (arguably, masters of the arts) artisans can do wonder... We all too often see our distant ancestors as.... stunted without our marvellous mechanics. Think again. -So, our distant ancestors had architextually wonderous cities? Tents, huts, wooden and straw cottages. Right.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-12-08, 09:02 PM	*laughs* Well, there were the pyramids (that's the example I can think of off the top of my head). OK, holy symbols. I'd be flexible with them and go with what I mentioned before--the gods wouldn't mind each person having their own personal holy symbol (that's the case in novels, too--I can think of Erevis Cale and Riven off the top of my head). Or, use a simplified version of the elaborate ones seen in F&P, and assume the fancy-schmancy versions are used mainly in temple artwork.
The Ubbergeek 02-12-08, 09:59 PM	-So, our distant ancestors had architextually wonderous cities? Tents, huts, wooden and straw cottages. Right. No, but our artisans ancestors where a bit more skilled than what you seems to think. Encarving and graving with slow, minute precision, complex small drawing. I didn't say it was necessarly hugely common, or simple - or cheap. I said it was possible to do medails or small carving with surprisingly complex motives with a skilled artisan.
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 12:22 AM	OK, holy symbols. I'd be flexible with them and go with what I mentioned before--the gods wouldn't mind each person having their own personal holy symbol (that's the case in novels, too--I can think of Erevis Cale and Riven off the top of my head). Or, use a simplified version of the elaborate ones seen in F&P, and assume the fancy-schmancy versions are used mainly in temple artwork. -I think I might include something like this in my next campaign. I was already inclusing an evil Hag Druid that was causing some problems, but you gave me an idea. Perhaps all around her Hag House will be ancient Unholy Symbols of Orcus or someone like that, a la The Blair Witch Project... I didn't say it was necessarly hugely common, or simple - or cheap. I said it was possible to do medails or small carving with surprisingly complex motives with a skilled artisan. -Which defeats the concept of having such highly detailed holy symbols, which, theoretically, every worshipper could/should have.
18DELTA 02-13-08, 12:41 AM	Well, if they plan on imprisoning everyone who doesn't comply, their going to need bigger offices... say something the size of... Texas :P -:eek: :uh-huh: :nonono: :bored: :ahem: :yuck: :raincloud :rant: :censored: :headexplo :banghead: :hoppingma ...THEY BETTER NOT COME TO TEXAS!!!! -Send em to I dunno Arkansas!;) 18DELTA:P
Kenzuki 02-13-08, 08:29 AM	Maybe they make them by magic?
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 08:43 AM	Maybe they make them by magic? -They'd then be (relativley) expensive, and again, the common folk- who are the most likely to own holy symbols, as they comprise so much of the world- wouldn't be able to easily afford them. Remember, the average peasant makes, what? The equivalent of a few GP every year? If even?
Flicker 02-13-08, 11:21 AM	No, Torm's symbol should be something entirely new like: A Great Sword inbetween two gauntleted hands or the current symbol upon a shield or ...suggestions...? A block of wood sums him up really
Kenzuki 02-13-08, 11:23 AM	-They'd then be (relativley) expensive, and again, the common folk- who are the most likely to own holy symbols, as they comprise so much of the world- wouldn't be able to easily afford them. Remember, the average peasant makes, what? The equivalent of a few GP every year? If even? How hard is it for a bard or a wizard to use magic to draw something on a piece of wood or silver? I imagine it's a low level spell and wouldn't cost you much. That or the peasent could just get a piece of wood and carve something himself. I'm sure Torm doesn't care that Bob the Builder's holy symbol of Torm looks kinda off if it just looks like a hand.
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 01:04 PM	How hard is it for a bard or a wizard to use magic to draw something on a piece of wood or silver? I imagine it's a low level spell and wouldn't cost you much. That or the peasent could just get a piece of wood and carve something himself. I'm sure Torm doesn't care that Bob the Builder's holy symbol of Torm looks kinda off if it just looks like a hand. -According to the Player's Handbook, it costs the Caster Level x X for a spellcaster to cast a spell as a service. If this spell is 1st Level, the cost would be Caster Level x 5 GP. Let's, for argument's sake, assume that the caster is 1st Level. The cost now is 1 x 5 GP, for a total cost of 5 GP. When it is assumed that a peasant makes the equivalent of 1 GP per year or per month (I don't remember which), even a single GP is extremely important. -If a church is buying all of these things, that means that, in, say, a town of 1000 individuals, all of whom worship a deity, the church is spending 5000 GP (1000 x 5 GP). In certain places, this might not be possible, due to the economics and all that stuff written in the DMG- I'm not going to really analyze that, since I don't think it's really relevant, unless we want to persue this path, which I don't think we really do. -That a peasant can simply get a piece of wood and carve most of these Holy/Unholy symbols is exactly what I find hard to believe. As I stated, look above, at the above illustrations. Quite complex. I also don't have any problem accepting that individuals make their own, but when push comes to shove, nothing ever specifically mentions that. -Look at the real world. Without the use of magic, and with the existence of artisans and such, holy symbols are rather simple. Judiasm has a star. Christianity has a cross. Islam has a crescent moon. Buddhism has a flower. Hinduism has the Aum.
Kenzuki 02-13-08, 02:43 PM	Just have them make simplistic versions. I don't think it's that hard for a artisan to carve you a piece of wood with a gauntlet on it. Alot of peasents like to whittle I imagine.
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 03:19 PM	Just have them make simplistic versions. I don't think it's that hard for a artisan to carve you a piece of wood with a gauntlet on it. Alot of peasents like to whittle I imagine. -Again, there's nothing that says anywhere that churches frown or smile upon simplistic versions of deific holy symbols. -As for someone making one...That's be a Craft DC check anywhere between 5 (simple item) and 15 (high-quality item), depending on how exactly a person wants to rule things. Not every person is a skilled wood worker (skill points in Craft [Woodworking]), so let's assume that they have 0 skill points in this profession. Let's also assume that they have a 10 to the appropriate stat (as 10-11 is average, and peasants are obviously anything but unaverage). So, if you consider it a simple item, they have a 75% chance of creating one sucessfully, and if you considered it a high-qiuality item, there is a 25% chance of creating one. -If you want a specific image, maybe it's be Craft (Calligraphy), but the same raw numbers and concepts apply. -A question, in the end, worth asking Ed.
Kiioro 02-13-08, 03:49 PM	An upgrade on the holy symbols is almost mandatory. If they're going to do a massacre on every pantheon, reducing the number to a few gods, it's necessary for the different religions to reflect that. Evenmoreso if the follower originally believed in one of those deities that went *poof*. What I thought about the holy symbols was that the depictions in the Core Books are the same as a "Baroque" version of said Holy symbols: overflowing with small details that a normal, personal depiction belonging a commoner will not have. Maybe you'll see that version watching over the church's main altar, and a noble that wants the world to know about his/her devotion will most definitely have one, but Fyrnor the prison guard will have an oversimplified (and cheaper) version of his god's representation.
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 04:07 PM	-Again, I have no problem with that, but nothing, anywhere that I know of, says that. Elves don't lay eggs, even though there isn't anything that specifically says that they don't. But.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-13-08, 07:06 PM	-I think I might include something like this in my next campaign. I was already inclusing an evil Hag Druid that was causing some problems, but you gave me an idea. Glad to have helped.;)
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 07:13 PM	Glad to have helped.;) -Blair Witch-style symbols hanging all over the place would scare you, wouldn't it?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-13-08, 08:22 PM	-Blair Witch-style symbols hanging all over the place would scare you, wouldn't it? Probably, because I get easily scared at stuff like that.:)
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 08:42 PM	Probably, because I get easily scared at stuff like that.:) -I won't scare you, then. I'm going to attempt scare, or at least creep out my players, though. Maybe I'll have them so if they actually do a search check, they're effected by Symbol of Pain, or whatever.
Kenzuki 02-13-08, 08:45 PM	Just have the wizard blow the scarey symbols up from a distance. That's what I'de do. "Hey guys! Those symbols look evil! I got this!" *powers up fireball and flings it at the evil symbols*
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 08:50 PM	Just have the wizard blow the scarey symbols up from a distance. That's what I'de do. "Hey guys! Those symbols look evil! I got this!" *powers up fireball and flings it at the evil symbols* -The party contains no Wizards. And, if they ever did employ such tactics, I'd have someone notice a destroyed Ring of Wishes, to dissuade them from such assinine behavior ever again. Especially in a forest.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-14-08, 01:55 PM	-I won't scare you, then. I'm going to attempt scare, or at least creep out my players, though. Maybe I'll have them so if they actually do a search check, they're effected by Symbol of Pain, or whatever. I wouldn't mind being creeped out as a player.:) It can add to the excitement of a game. I would say that in general I tend to be easily scared by experiences designed for that purpose.:)
Kiioro 02-14-08, 02:40 PM	There are two symbols that ought to have been redesigned: Helm and Torm. Make them easier to differentiate. If I were a commoner, I would've had lots of troubles to discern a Helm / Torm flag from afar. Now, Helm isn't an issue anymore. But the gauntleted gods sure made their effort to even have their gauntlet of the same color. It's a good thing I didn't get the tattoo (I planned on getting Sharess's or Kossuth's holy symbol on my other shoulder blade), anyway.
Lord Karsus 02-14-08, 02:47 PM	It's a good thing I didn't get the tattoo (I planned on getting Sharess's or Kossuth's holy symbol on my other shoulder blade), anyway. -You, too? Another person, besides for Ody, getting FR tattoos? What's wrong with you people!? -In the immortal words of Ubbergeek: "Just. A. Game. A glorified game, but a game."
Kiioro 02-14-08, 03:00 PM	Lord, don't worry about my sanity. It's mainly because of a single reason: the holy symbols have great aesthetic (Kossuth's being the one that I like the most). I don't pray to them, nor believe in any FR gods, but I like what the designers made for their [gods] symbols. As an extra, any geek out there might frown, gasp or do a :nonono: motion. Fear not, I on my right shoulder blade I have 3 lines (polysemic), a design made by me.
Lord Karsus 02-14-08, 03:21 PM	-I'd do a :nonono: motion. Seriously, how'd you explain that one to the ol' grandkiddies? "You see, little Jimmy, that's Kossuth, the Lord of Flames..." :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-14-08, 03:24 PM	-You, too? Another person, besides for Ody, getting FR tattoos? What's wrong with you people!? -In the immortal words of Ubbergeek: "Just. A. Game. A glorified game, but a game." Well, to some people, getting tattoos aren't a big deal.:)
Lord Karsus 02-14-08, 03:34 PM	Well, to some people, getting tattoos aren't a big deal.:) -Good point. I'd never get one unless my arms were more ripped. -One of my PCs has his deity's holy symbol tattooed on himself.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-14-08, 04:24 PM	-Good point. I'd never get one unless my arms were more ripped. Hah! I wouldn't get one, partly because I'm sensitive to pain. :-/ I like having characters with tattoos, though.:D
Lord Karsus 02-15-08, 06:48 AM	I like having characters with tattoos, though.:D -My DM 'pimps' magical tattoos to the point where it's extremely annoying, and as such, I've made a vow to never have a character with a magical tattoo.
Androth_Holybringer 02-15-08, 09:05 AM	I hope the new symbols depict something about the deity, as some of the old ones did.
The Ubbergeek 02-15-08, 01:51 PM	I could see loviatarans(?) getting tatooed much including the holy symbol - can hurt, even branded x-x.
SmartPaladin 02-15-08, 03:32 PM	I could see loviatarans(?) getting tatooed much including the holy symbol - can hurt, even branded x-x. Ilmatarians as well...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-15-08, 07:05 PM	-My DM 'pimps' magical tattoos to the point where it's extremely annoying, and as such, I've made a vow to never have a character with a magical tattoo. Heh, I can see how that would be annoying...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-15-08, 07:06 PM	Ilmatarians as well... Apparently Ilmater's clergy like to tattoo tears on their faces. That must hurt (though of course, everyone has a different tolerance level).
SmartPaladin 02-15-08, 10:50 PM	Apparently Ilmater's clergy like to tattoo tears on their faces. That must hurt (though of course, everyone has a different tolerance level). I had forgotten about that... :plotting:
GothicDan 02-16-08, 12:40 AM	Good point. I'd never get one unless my arms were more ripped. Tattoos on nice arms = super hot. I might get one on the back of my neck, of the Futhark spiraling in towards a center. On topic on topic on topic.
Kiioro 02-16-08, 01:56 AM	Apparently Ilmater's clergy like to tattoo tears on their faces. That must hurt (though of course, everyone has a different tolerance level). *Gasp* Ilmaterians (Ilmatereens, Ilmaterers, or whatnot) are from the Mara Salvatrucha?! More on topic, I believe that Cyric's banishment will be also imprinted on his unholy symbol, if Levistus's symbol changed much when he was imprisoned in ice...
Lord Karsus 02-16-08, 06:24 AM	Heh, I can see how that would be annoying... -And the same deity, and the same, and the same...:yuck: Tattoos on nice arms = super hot. -Uh...Good to have your approval. *Gasp* Ilmaterians (Ilmatereens, Ilmaterers, or whatnot) are from the Mara Salvatrucha?! -It's 'Ilmatari', actually.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 01:16 PM	-Uh...Good to have your approval. If I like it, a classy female probably would, too.
Lord Karsus 02-16-08, 02:11 PM	If I like it, a classy female probably would, too. -Mmm, good point. :cool: