Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Todesherr 02-25-08, 11:35 PM	I mean, it just boggles the mind, doesn't it?
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 12:21 AM	-I agree, but, at this point, whaddyagonna do? In our own Realms, they can still exist as independent entities.
sfdragon 02-26-08, 04:08 AM	I still plan on using the 3e deities , well the ones that survive anyway, just un stat them. and some of them will still be around
Alediran 02-26-08, 10:18 AM	I plan to have all FR deities, since my 4th edition campaigns in the Realms will be set in the current time and no Spellplague will happen.
selunatic2397 02-26-08, 12:13 PM	No spellplague happened in my 1ED campaign! I even wasted cyric and shar out of spite! :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-26-08, 04:12 PM	I mean, it just boggles the mind, doesn't it? What do you mean? Gods are going to be less racially oriented, yes. That doesn't mean traditionally racial gods will just cease to exist. Given that Corellon, Sehanine, and Lolth are going to be 4E deities, that is emphatically not the case.
selunatic2397 02-26-08, 05:19 PM	Since Sehanine is now Selune in a mask, and with Selune in play it is probably only a matter of time before Lolth reveals her mask to show Shar under it... All races other than human seem to only rate a single greater god...with all the rest of their "Court" being recycled human gods in masks... Yes, it does boggle my mind at least! Only humans get a full pantheon in 4ED.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-26-08, 09:13 PM	Only humans get a full pantheon in 4ED. But since the gods are less racially-oriented, that means the human gods will be less "human oriented" as well.
Alediran 02-26-08, 10:02 PM	But since the gods are less racially-oriented, that means the human gods will be less "human oriented" as well. I don't see it possible Rin, the setting is made by humans, therefore their views on divinity will override most of the other races' points of view.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-26-08, 10:06 PM	I don't see it possible Rin, the setting is made by humans, therefore their views on divinity will override most of the other races' points of view. Well, I guess we'll see what happens in the next few months.:)
Faraer 02-26-08, 10:23 PM	As I posted on Rich's thread, new theoretical claims about the gods' identities don't affect most campaigns. What's operative is the material we get on the gods as worshipped by demihumans, and the religions they're part of, which looks to be minimal.
Todesherr 02-26-08, 11:19 PM	But how the hell are they going to rewrite divine history and the creation of the races?! Oh Garl....I am going to miss you.......:weep:
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 11:31 PM	But how the hell are they going to rewrite divine history and the creation of the races?! -If they do go through with all of it, it is certainly going to be a task, if they delve into the lore, to smooth the most minor ruffles (though, I doubt things would go this far). That said, personally, I think they are causing more problems for themselves than they are helping themselves. But, that's just my opinion.
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 12:14 AM	Oh please. They're going to claim that the 30 odd deities of the Forgotten Realms are the only ones in existence. Then it's going to look something like this. Gruumsh (God) Demigods * Bahgtru (L): God of loyalty, stupidity, brute strength * Ilneval (L): God of war, combat, overwhelming numbers, strategy * Luthic (L): Goddess of caves, orc females, home, wisdom, fertility, healing, servitude * Shargaas (L): God of night, thieves, stealth, darkness, the Underdark * Yurtrus (L): God of death, disease And really, what will have changed?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 11:57 AM	But how the hell are they going to rewrite divine history and the creation of the races?! Oh Garl....I am going to miss you.......:weep: Apparently, the designers did find Garl to be one of the more "boring" deities, along with Yondalla (I remember this from one of the preview books).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 11:58 AM	Oh please. They're going to claim that the 30 odd deities of the Forgotten Realms are the only ones in existence. Then it's going to look something like this. Gruumsh (God) Demigods * Bahgtru (L): God of loyalty, stupidity, brute strength * Ilneval (L): God of war, combat, overwhelming numbers, strategy * Luthic (L): Goddess of caves, orc females, home, wisdom, fertility, healing, servitude * Shargaas (L): God of night, thieves, stealth, darkness, the Underdark * Yurtrus (L): God of death, disease And really, what will have changed? Well, from what I recall, demigods in 4E won't have churches, priests, or worshippers. I don't consider that to be a minor change.
Alediran 02-27-08, 12:13 PM	Oh please. They're going to claim that the 30 odd deities of the Forgotten Realms are the only ones in existence. Then it's going to look something like this. Gruumsh (God) Demigods * Bahgtru (L): God of loyalty, stupidity, brute strength * Ilneval (L): God of war, combat, overwhelming numbers, strategy * Luthic (L): Goddess of caves, orc females, home, wisdom, fertility, healing, servitude * Shargaas (L): God of night, thieves, stealth, darkness, the Underdark * Yurtrus (L): God of death, disease And really, what will have changed? You don't recieve spells from Ilneval but from Gruumsh. If the drow pantheon would have survived (and I see why they blew it as I'm writing this post) it would have been like this: Lolth (god): Demigods: Vhaeraun Eilistraee Kiaransalee Ghaunadaur If you worshipped anyone of the demigods you'll never recieve spells since Lolth hates them and would never give spells to the followers of any of those demigods.
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 12:17 PM	If you worshiped anyone of the demigods you'll never recieve spells since Lolth hates them and would never give spells to the followers of any of those demigods. Except, Eli is probably going to be a Greater Goddess herself and same for Ghaundaur. The problem is that "competing pantheons" aren't really much of a concept in FR. The only one was the Drow pantheon.
Alediran 02-27-08, 12:27 PM	Except, Eli is probably going to be a Greater Goddess herself Very unlikely, reading the line in Orc King. Unless she becomes a CN goddes (which it would still mean she is dead from my point of view) and same for Ghaundaur. You never know with the old bugger :P The problem is that "competing pantheons" aren't really much of a concept in FR. That's why they blew the Drow pantheon. It wasn't because of booringness or useless (they were probably the most used group outside the Faerūnian pantheon), it was because they could never be compatible with 4th edition of grouping gods. The only one was the Drow pantheon. And that was the reason they where so interesting, I loved puting two groups of drow who came to kill my character to fight among them.
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 12:30 PM	Well, from what I recall, demigods in 4E won't have churches, priests, or worshippers. I don't consider that to be a minor change. -Nor would I. If they were 'demoted in status' in the coming change, but retained their churches, and so on, I'd have no misgivings about this particular issue. The problem is that "competing pantheons" aren't really much of a concept in FR. The only one was the Drow pantheon. -The Dwarven pantheon had Deep Duerra and Laduger at odds with the rest of the pantheon. The Gnome pantheon has Urdlen at odds with the rest of the pantheon. The entire Orc pantheon is plotting against Gruumsh. So, that's not entirely true.
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 12:54 PM	-Nor would I. If they were 'demoted in status' in the coming change, but retained their churches, and so on, I'd have no misgivings about this particular issue. I doubt they'll go to the trouble of Flavor Texting a change in their churches.
ripvanwormer 02-27-08, 01:14 PM	Think of Set and Horus-Re, too, and the rivalry between Anhur and Assuran/Hoar. Or all the rivalries in the Faerunian pantheon - Cyric and Mystra, for example, or Kossuth and Istishia. In the elvish pantheon, Rillifane Rallathil and Solonor Thelandira are at odds over the issue of sport hunting. Garagos and Tempus are rivals. So are Nomog-Geaya and Khurgorbaeyag. So are Ilneval and Bahgtru. So are Savras and Azuth. The list goes on. Edit: Ah, the issue was rivalries between a pantheon head and sub-members. So Set is a good example of this, and Urdlen, and quite possibly Abbathor, but the Faerunian pantheon doesn't have a leader, so that's not an issue there. For what it's worth, what I think they'll do is combine a lot of demihuman gods with human gods. So Urdlen will be an aspect of Malar rather than a demigod subordinate to Garl (I think Garl is only out of the core pantheon, not necessarily the Realms one, though we'll see - perhaps he'll be a demigod subordinate to Tymora). I suspect all the "guardian of the dead" gods in the various demihuman pantheons (Dumathoin, Urogalan, and Segojan Earthcaller) will become aspects of Jergal. Abbathor might merge with both Mask and Task.
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 01:33 PM	Edit: Ah, the issue was rivalries between a pantheon head and sub-members. So Set is a good example of this, and Urdlen, and quite possibly Abbathor, but the Faerunian pantheon doesn't have a leader, so that's not an issue there. True, though it's not an issue in my games because Set beat the rest of the Mulhorandi. ;-) But yes, all the competiting issue is handled. I don't see that there's much of an issue though as inter-pantheon rivals will mostly have individual members who are already gods. Abbathor can be granted spells by Moradin yet still be plotting against him.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 01:59 PM	Except, Eli is probably going to be a Greater Goddess herself and same for Ghaundaur. Personally, I think Eli is just going to die, or be changed in a way that makes her a drastically different persona. But that's just me.
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 02:03 PM	Personally, I think Eli is just going to die, or be changed in a way that makes her a drastically different persona. But that's just me. I only doubt it because people forget that you don't kill the Goose that Lays Golden Eggs. If they were going to kill Eli, they'd have done it in the GHOTR.
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 03:09 PM	If they were going to kill Eli, they'd have done it in the GHOTR. -I've mentioned that before, and believed that, but I don't believe it anymore. The conclusions of the novel lines that are currently ongoing (Lady Penitent trilogy, The Haunted Lands trilogy, The Twilight War trilogy) aren't resolved in AGHotR. Purposely, seemingly.
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 03:49 PM	-I've mentioned that before, and believed that, but I don't believe it anymore. The conclusions of the novel lines that are currently ongoing (Lady Penitent trilogy, The Haunted Lands trilogy, The Twilight War trilogy) aren't resolved in AGHotR. Purposely, seemingly. Yes, but I don't necessarilly think those line endings results will be that drastic.
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 03:57 PM	Yes, but I don't necessarilly think those line endings results will be that drastic. -All three are building up to dramatic conclusions, most of which probably would have major reprocussions in the Realms, had they not arrived on the coattails of 4e.
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 04:30 PM	--- Actually, I think book 3 of the Lady Penitent will describe Ghaundaur's leaving the novel but otherwise no further effects. And we know the Shades takeover Sembia. That's no doubt the end of it.
Storm_Silverhand 02-27-08, 04:48 PM	Heya, I only doubt it because people forget that you don't kill the Goose that Lays Golden Eggs. If you're talking about "Good" Drow being the Golden Eggs, Drizzt proves beyond a doubt that you don't need Eilistraee. Apparently Golden Eggs spring forth spontaneously from the cesspit of Drow society without any help from the good goddess of the Drow. If they were going to kill Eli, they'd have done it in the GHOTR. They couldn't resolve anything in TGHotR, because there's still a novel series on going. They really wouldn't want to spoil the ending - but even if she survives the Lady Penitent series, she's still very much changed from what she was. She's no longer Eilistraee, but an impostor. IMH(onest)O, they should call her Eilisraun to distinguish her from her previous self, the change is that dramatic. I want the original back. :weep:
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 04:57 PM	Actually, I think book 3 of the Lady Penitent will describe Ghaundaur's leaving the novel but otherwise no further effects. -As the entire plotline of the novel series is Eilistraee and Lolth engaging in a game where only one of them lives, and the title specifically mentions 'Last', I think there is enough circumstantial evidence to say that the blurb concerning Ghaundaur is not the ultimate conclusion of the series. And we know the Shades takeover Sembia. That's no doubt the end of it. -And, what happens to Erevis Cale? Prince Rivalen? Volumvox? Mephistocles (I can never get his name correct)? Again, same as above- there is a lot more that needs to be resolved that AGHotR does not mention at all. She's no longer Eilistraee, but an impostor. IMH(onest)O, they should call her Eilisraun to distinguish her from her previous self, the change is that dramatic. I want the original back. :weep: -She's the 'Dark Maiden', the 'Masked Lady', whatever they began calling her.
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 06:43 PM	-As the entire plotline of the novel series is Eilistraee and Lolth engaging in a game where only one of them lives, and the title specifically mentions 'Last', I think there is enough circumstantial evidence to say that the blurb concerning Ghaundaur is not the ultimate conclusion of the series. I've heard plenty of arguments like this by fans over in Star Wars as to how Luke Skywalker HAS to die or Han in a certain novel. So far, none of them have proven accurate. -And, what happens to Erevis Cale? Prince Rivalen? Volumvox? Mephistocles (I can never get his name correct)? Again, same as above- there is a lot more that needs to be resolved that AGHotR does not mention at all. I imagine none of it will be particularly Realmshaking, unfortunately. -She's the 'Dark Maiden', the 'Masked Lady', whatever they began calling her. Or as I call her, THE REAL EL. I was terminally vexed with the implications of sexism amongst the Dark Maiden's followers and rather outraged that Vhaeraun's faithful joining resulted in men recieving an equal place. They should have always had it.
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 07:00 PM	I've heard plenty of arguments like this by fans over in Star Wars as to how Luke Skywalker HAS to die or Han in a certain novel. So far, none of them have proven accurate. -We'll see. As per the prologue of The Orc King, we know something terrible is going to happen to Eilistraee and her followers at some point in the future. Now seems as sensible a time as ever. I imagine none of it will be particularly Realmshaking, unfortunately. -Cale isn't a 'power player', so to speak. Rivalen, Volumvox and Mephistocles all are, however. I was terminally vexed with the implications of sexism amongst the Dark Maiden's followers and rather outraged that Vhaeraun's faithful joining resulted in men recieving an equal place. They should have always had it. -And, I agree. However, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun combined are not the same entity as just Eilistraee. XY =/= X.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 07:01 PM	-All three are building up to dramatic conclusions, most of which probably would have major reprocussions in the Realms, had they not arrived on the coattails of 4e. Not to mention that each book of the Lady Penitent trilogy has, so far, ended in what could be called a dramatic (and quite drastic) conclusion. I have no reason to think the third and final book won't be the same way.
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 07:03 PM	Volumax was created for the series to my knowledge. Hence, whether he lives or dies within it doesn't really matter does it?
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 07:03 PM	Not to mention that each book of the Lady Penitent trilogy has, so far, ended in what could be called a dramatic (and quite drastic) conclusion. I have no reason to think the third and final book won't be the same way. -Indeed. -Like I said, all of the circumstantial evidence is there.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 07:04 PM	--- Actually, I think book 3 of the Lady Penitent will describe Ghaundaur's leaving the novel but otherwise no further effects. And we know the Shades takeover Sembia. That's no doubt the end of it. Wow. I like you, Charles, but I find those statements to be on the naive side (almost willfully naive).
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 07:05 PM	Volumax was created for the series to my knowledge. Hence, whether he lives or dies within it doesn't really matter does it? -Incorrect. He was 'created' in Faiths and Pantheons. His fate is inherently tied to Faerūn, as he is the impetus of the Shadowstorm.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 07:06 PM	- -And, what happens to Erevis Cale? Prince Rivalen? Volumvox? Mephistocles (I can never get his name correct)? Again, same as above- there is a lot more that needs to be resolved that AGHotR does not mention at all. Mephistopheles.;) -She's the 'Dark Maiden', the 'Masked Lady', whatever they began calling her. The Masked Lady. She had the "Dark Maiden" epithet even back when she was "pure".
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 07:08 PM	Mephistopheles.;) -Yeah, that one. You corrected me last time, too. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 07:10 PM	I've heard plenty of arguments like this by fans over in Star Wars as to how Luke Skywalker HAS to die or Han in a certain novel. So far, none of them have proven accurate. I think the point LK was trying to make was that the GHotR was specifically designed NOT to spoil not-yet-released novels. And that is correct. We don't know what the conclusions are, yet. And there are bound to be more surprises in these novels (for better or for worse). I imagine none of it will be particularly Realmshaking, unfortunately. Well, "Realmshaking" does mean different things to different people. I know from experience that there were changes that appalled me (which would be, like, all of them) that didn't phase you in the slightest.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 07:12 PM	-Yeah, that one. You corrected me last time, too. :) I remember.;)
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 07:23 PM	I think the point LK was trying to make was that the GHotR was specifically designed NOT to spoil not-yet-released novels. And that is correct. We don't know what the conclusions are, yet. And there are bound to be more surprises in these novels (for better or for worse). Like the Gossamer Plains probably dealing with Tyr-Helm, Fourth Edition, and Ghaundaur getting kicked out?
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 08:09 PM	Like the Gossamer Plains probably dealing with Tyr-Helm, Fourth Edition, and Ghaundaur getting kicked out? -I finished that novel months ago, and I'm still wondering what the point of it was. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 08:22 PM	-I finished that novel months ago, and I'm still wondering what the point of it was. ;) *chuckles* It doesn't really stand on it's own, does it?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 08:25 PM	Like the Gossamer Plains probably dealing with Tyr-Helm, Fourth Edition, and Ghaundaur getting kicked out? Uh, not the Ghaundaur part, most likely. :) The Empyrean trilogy is transitional, so yeah, it will deal with 4E stuff, the Spellplague, and most likely Tyr and Helm. But, if all the "important stuff" has been revealed already in GHotR, why would the author be keeping his mouth shut about the time span of the series (he was asked about it on Candlekeep)? Same goes for Richard Lee Byers and his Thay trilogy. If nothing much is going to happen, how come he's keeping his lips sealed, too? If we were already spoiled, there wouldn't be a need for that.
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 08:27 PM	*chuckles* It doesn't really stand on it's own, does it? -Not even when propped up. The storyline with Kannyr Vhok isn't too bad, but that's only...1/4 of the book, in total.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 08:34 PM	-Not even when propped up. The storyline with Kannyr Vhok isn't too bad, but that's only...1/4 of the book, in total. *laughs* It's funny how my opinion is pretty much the total opposite.:) Well, I didn't think that plotline was bad, per se, but it was mostly about getting from point A to point B. I thought the "random encounters" got a bit tiresome (yes, there are tons of dangerous fire creatures in the Plane of Fire, we get it!). I did certain parts funny, though, since it was a classic "heroic journey" in which the characters weren't heroic at all, but self-serving (and when they get imprisoned at one point, they get out of it by choosing the "evil option" :) ). And all that's not to say that Aliizsa's plot went anywhere, either. After all... It turned out that all the "redemption progress" the angel seemed to be making with her was fake.
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 08:38 PM	Aliiza's plot was as creepily misoginistic and cult programming as humanly possible.
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 08:39 PM	*laughs* It's funny how my opinion is pretty much the total opposite.:) Well, I didn't think that plotline was bad, per se, but it was mostly about getting from point A to point B. I thought the "random encounters" got a bit tiresome (yes, there are tons of dangerous fire creatures in the Plane of Fire, we get it!). I did certain parts funny, though, since it was a classic "heroic journey" in which the characters weren't heroic at all, but self-serving (and when they get imprisoned at one point, they get out of it by choosing the "evil option" :) ). And all that's not to say that Aliizsa's plot went anywhere, either. After all... It turned out that all the "redemption progress" the angel seemed to be making with her was fake. -The plotline with Vhok and the Cleric he was traveling with was preferable to the plotline with Aliiza, in my mind, because at least I knew what was going on. Every time there was a transition in location, and what not, in the Aliiza plotline, it seemed very jerky. It didn't flow like a story, and instead, seemed like we were being shown scene after scene after scene.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 08:44 PM	-The plotline with Vhok and the Cleric he was traveling with was preferable to the plotline with Aliiza, in my mind, because at least I knew what was going on. Every time there was a transition in location, and what not, in the Aliiza plotline, it seemed very jerky. It didn't flow like a story, and instead, seemed like we were being shown scene after scene after scene. I see what you mean.:) Hopefully the next novel will flow better.
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 08:56 PM	I see what you mean.:) Hopefully the next novel will flow better. -Whenever that is...Seriously, 4e totally messed up the novel schedule! That novel was supposed to be released November, I think? Still isn't out. The last book in the Twilight War Trilogy was also pushed back...To December 2008!
Lykor 02-27-08, 10:43 PM	Personally, I don't think Ghaundaur is going to be around for 4e. I think he's just going to "disappear" into some random plane and never be heard from again. It's a shame. Although he was far from the most important god, he was unusual enough for at least some consideration.
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 10:58 PM	He's the Tharizdun/Elemental Evil equivalent and the God of Elemental Chaos. Ie. he'll have a larger role.
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 11:30 PM	-To get back on topic, for a moment: Exarchs The exarchs are often called demigods or heroes, and many are ascended mortal servants of greater gods, brought up from the world to serve as agents of their divine masters. Many, but not all, attract worshipers of their own, and they have some ability to grant spells, but are more often simply conduits from the mortal world to the attention of the higher gods. For example, the druids of Gulthandor pay homage to the Lion God, but in reality the character's divine spells are being granted by Nobanion's patron, Silvanus. Unlike true deities, exarchs are not bound to live in Astral Dominions with their patrons. Like Nobanion, many choose to live on the Material Plane, more directly engaged in the lives of their mortal followers. Finally, exarchs in D&D campaigns are fully intended to be defeatable by any epic-level PC strong enough to attempt it. Of course, immortal beings are not just sitting around waiting for epic-level adventurers to take their life. And should the PCs even succeed in such an endeavor, they'll surely have earned the wrath of the exarch's patron deity.
Soltares 02-27-08, 11:47 PM	Since Sehanine is now Selune in a mask, and with Selune in play it is probably only a matter of time before Lolth reveals her mask to show Shar under it... It's gonna be like one of those commercials where two people are standing next to each other, and they keep zipping out of skin-suits and turning out to be completely different people. Selune and Shar will be glaring at each other, and Selune will go 'zip' and actually be Mystra, and then Shar will go 'zip' and be Set, and the Mystra will go 'zip' and be Horus-Re, and then Set will go 'zip' and be Tchazzer.
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 11:52 PM	It's gonna be like one of those commercials where two people are standing next to each other, and they keep zipping out of skin-suits and turning out to be completely different people. Selune and Shar will be glaring at each other, and Selune will go 'zip' and actually be Mystra, and then Shar will go 'zip' and be Set, and the Mystra will go 'zip' and be Horus-Re, and then Set will go 'zip' and be Tchazzer. -In the end, Selūne is a horse, and Shar is a broom.
Storm_Silverhand 02-28-08, 02:53 AM	Heya, Or as I call her, THE REAL EL. I was terminally vexed with the implications of sexism amongst the Dark Maiden's followers and rather outraged that Vhaeraun's faithful joining resulted in men recieving an equal place. They should have always had it. If you've been reading the LP series, you'll know that the "sexism" in Eilistraee's Church wasn't just hand waved away. Many of the priestesses have problems dealing with ex-Vhaeraunites, and most of the ex-Vhaeraunites have problems dealing with the Eilistraeeans. Eilistraee's church has never been sexist, the clergy has been gender exclusive. Eilistraee has never taught that men are inferior to women. Edit: and I realize that what I wrote here contradicts what I said above... :embarrass So... umm... yeah. *hides* Personally, I would have been happy had, come 4th Edition (or heck, even back in 3rd Edition when Faiths and Pantheons first came out*), the Developers merely said "Eilistraee now allows male clerics." The could even have phrased it along the lines of - "Things have been changing for a while, and now Eilistraee has let it be known that males are welcome in her clergy. There are a few now, and that number grows with each passing season." * That's what they should have done. It was unclear, since the gender restriction wasn't mentioned at all in F&P - and many people interpreted that to mean it had gone away... But obviously it hadn't because it's only just going away now under the worst circumstances any fan of Eilistraee could imagine. (Rejoice all you people who hated Ed's "change dance" style of males in Eilistraee's clergy, that has now been de-cannonized.)
Charles Phipps 02-28-08, 03:04 AM	Change dance?
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 03:33 AM	Change dance? -More or less, a male worshipper would do a dance, change into a woman, and serve as a cleric in the meanwhile. That's the most dry and basic of explanations, mind you.
Storm_Silverhand 02-28-08, 03:37 AM	Heya, -More or less, a male worshipper would do a dance, change into a woman, and serve as a cleric in the meanwhile. That's the most dry and basic of explanations, mind you. Well he could serve as a cleric as a male, but he could never advance unless he spent time in female form... This was Ed's response to my question about males in Eilistraee's clergy. Obviously what has happened in the LP series has contradicted him.
Charles Phipps 02-28-08, 03:38 AM	:uh-huh: Okay. Well, that says some things about Eli and her feelings towards guys. Ed has some strange notions really. Maybe Eli should have been Drow goddess of women.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 03:40 AM	:uh-huh: -Yeah. Maybe Eli should have been Drow goddess of women. -If there was a Drow deity that promoted full equality and all that, he/she'd fill a gap that exists in the Drow Pantheon.
Storm_Silverhand 02-28-08, 06:17 AM	Heya, :uh-huh: Okay. Well, that says some things about Eli and her feelings towards guys. Ed has some strange notions really. Maybe Eli should have been Drow goddess of women. Compare Eilistraee to Lolth. Eilistraee merely doesn't allow males in her clergy. She's happy to accept lay males, and will grant male Rangers spells. She doesn't particularly elevate females above males otherwise. Lolth, on the other hand, also doesn't allow males in her clergy. She's happy to accept their hearts being ripped out of their chests on her altars. Societies that venerate her tend to be very sexist towards males. Ed's Eilistraee doesn't ask that the males who join her clergy totally give up their gender, just that they spend some time in female form... Now in the grand scheme of things, I think I'd rather change gender than be sacrificed - wouldn't you? (The Canon Eilistraee allows male priests now, but those are pretty much all ex-Vhaeraunites... IF she survives the LP series, it will be interesting to see how well she integrates them into her faith... But the Eilistraee in my Realms diverges from canon Eilistraee at some point during the LP series.)
selunatic2397 02-28-08, 10:42 AM	The original drow in 1ED's drow series of modules had male drow in Lolth's clergy...but they had a cap of 4th level. I seem to recall ftr4/cl4's as guards in caravans...but that's the limit of my memory. If you want I'll go look it up for you tonight? :)
Alediran 02-28-08, 11:33 AM	With Nobanion getting the shaft in the last article, and only being still alive because it's one of Ed's original gods, then there is no doubt what will happen to the Demihuman gods. *In solemn silence we cry for the death of our friends*
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 01:16 PM	-Whenever that is...Seriously, 4e totally messed up the novel schedule! That novel was supposed to be released November, I think? Still isn't out. The last book in the Twilight War Trilogy was also pushed back...To December 2008! I know. :-/ It's pretty annoying.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 01:22 PM	With Nobanion getting the shaft in the last article, and only being still alive because it's one of Ed's original gods, then there is no doubt what will happen to the Demihuman gods. *In solemn silence we cry for the death of our friends* As I mentioned on Candlekeep, I don't care for LG Nobanion now being "unaligned".
Meldread 02-28-08, 01:29 PM	I think people are misunderstanding Eilistraee's clergy's favoritism toward women. As we all know most Drow grow up in a society that is largely Lolth dominated. In that society only women can be members of the clergy and hold positions of power. There is a great deal of sexism toward males. Obviously, when females move toward Eilistraee, they are going to take their culture bias with them. (There is a very real difference between faith and culture.) The Clergy of Vhaeraun on the other hand were highly favorable toward males over women due to the way men were treated in the culture and society. After his death his clergy began to move toward Eilistraee. Now let's think about this for a moment. The clergy of Vhaeraun spent their days rebelling against the female dominated society by Lolth. They are now joining a female dominated clergy of Eilistraee. The clergy of Eilistraee, who largely hold the bias of the culture toward males, are now forced to accept males into their clergy - and not just any males - men who want equal power to them in everyway... men who have more than a little tiny chip on their shoulder about the way they've been treated over the centuries. Once you frame it in the proper context you can get a good idea of what it is like.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 04:40 PM	I know. :-/ It's pretty annoying. -I used to be (more or less) on top of these things...I can't tell you when the next Forgotten Realms novel is due out, or what it even is.
Charles Phipps 02-28-08, 04:54 PM	Lolth, on the other hand, also doesn't allow males in her clergy. She's happy to accept their hearts being ripped out of their chests on her altars. Societies that venerate her tend to be very sexist towards males. I never understood that retcon anyway. Lolth allows males in her clergy in my games just as always. They just have to undergo the test that transforms them into a Drider as per second edition at 4E. They also have no power structure in Menzoberrazan and frequently are murdered by female rivals. I never quite got the misandry aspect of Lolth. I always took it as she enjoyed subjugating men, true. However, she equally was jealous of her female clergy and enjoyed tormenting them. (The Canon Eilistraee allows male priests now, but those are pretty much all ex-Vhaeraunites... IF she survives the LP series, it will be interesting to see how well she integrates them into her faith... But the Eilistraee in my Realms diverges from canon Eilistraee at some point during the LP series.) That I don't get and honestly won't allow in my games either, because just as Eilistraee was never a goddess prejudiced against men, the Vhaeraunites were never just "guys who are okay." They're a bunch of :censored: and murderers that Eilistraee would be INSANE to let anywhere near her clergy. I dislike this retcon badly because it implies 1. Eilistraee, not her clergy, was sexist to begin with. 2. Vhaeraunites are capable of fitting in with Eilistraee's worshipers once you remove this imaginary sexism.
Storm_Silverhand 02-28-08, 05:40 PM	Heya, I never understood that retcon anyway. Lolth allows males in her clergy in my games just as always. They just have to undergo the test that transforms them into a Drider as per second edition at 4E. They also have no power structure in Menzoberrazan and frequently are murdered by female rivals. I never quite got the misandry aspect of Lolth. I always took it as she enjoyed subjugating men, true. However, she equally was jealous of her female clergy and enjoyed tormenting them. But you don't argue that it's not there? Lolth clearly favours females over males. I think the reason it was retconned had to do with game rules - they didn't want to impose level limits on anyone, quite simply. If they allowed male clerics of Lolth, they'd have to be able to advance as far as a female cleric, and that didn't fit with the flavour of Lolth's church. That I don't get and honestly won't allow in my games either, because just as Eilistraee was never a goddess prejudiced against men, the Vhaeraunites were never just "guys who are okay." They're a bunch of :censored: and murderers that Eilistraee would be INSANE to let anywhere near her clergy. I dislike this retcon badly because it implies 1. Eilistraee, not her clergy, was sexist to begin with. 2. Vhaeraunites are capable of fitting in with Eilistraee's worshipers once you remove this imaginary sexism. I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding the ex-Vhaeraunites. Incorporating them, whole cloth, into her clergy is a bad idea. There are probably individual ex-Vhaeraunites who are capable of making the jump, but as a whole... It isn't going to work. That's why Eilistraee herself is changing... If she isn't killed, she'll end up being the alternative to Lolth - but a NEUTRAL tending towards evil alternative (if the changes keep going the way they are) - not a Good alternative. Maybe what they're doing is trying to "stem the tide" of the perceived notion that there are more good drow than evil. :rolleyes: It was not the way to introduce males into Eilistraee's clergy. But they've done it now. :nonono:
Charles Phipps 02-28-08, 05:53 PM	But you don't argue that it's not there? Lolth clearly favours females over males. ? I just got through saying that Lolth's hatred for females is every bit as great as it for males, just different. The matriarchal elements of Drow society always struck me as a cultural matter that had no real relevance for Lolth if one grew outside Drow society. Just like the prejudice they showed to the Spiders that worshiped Lolth. The Drow THINK they matter but all that matters to Lolth is Lolth. I think the reason it was retconned had to do with game rules - they didn't want to impose level limits on anyone, quite simply. If they allowed male clerics of Lolth, they'd have to be able to advance as far as a female cleric, and that didn't fit with the flavour of Lolth's church. Honestly, the lack of any sort of divergent churches in the Realms as struck me as a big oversight. I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding the ex-Vhaeraunites. Incorporating them, whole cloth, into her clergy is a bad idea. There are probably individual ex-Vhaeraunites who are capable of making the jump, but as a whole... It isn't going to work. That's why Eilistraee herself is changing... If she isn't killed, she'll end up being the alternative to Lolth - but a NEUTRAL tending towards evil alternative (if the changes keep going the way they are) - not a Good alternative. Maybe what they're doing is trying to "stem the tide" of the perceived notion that there are more good drow than evil. It was not the way to introduce males into Eilistraee's clergy. But they've done it now. One possibility, Storm. Another is that it seems the Vhaeraunites have whole heartedly embraced the Fluffy Bunny Faith, which is only slightly LESS believable than everyone turning to Sehanine Moonbow if Lolth was killed in Menzoberrazan. Is it wrong I always took Vhaeraun's faith to be misogynist in the same way that Lolth's was misandrist? Even if, as Vhaeraun showed Shakti in Daughter of the Drow, all Vhaeraun cares about is power.
Draco Spirit 02-29-08, 08:57 PM	Apparently, the designers did find Garl to be one of the more "boring" deities, along with Yondalla (I remember this from one of the preview books). Erm.. Yonadallas boring? How that work, I find her a fascinating deity.
Zsych 03-01-08, 04:37 AM	I think that demi-human dieties not existing, is kinda also like saying that the human dieties will no longer exist. Its just going to be super-powers selling various beings what they want to see in return for the power they gain through worship.
sfdragon 03-01-08, 05:02 AM	hey i like yondalla too, she wasnt boring, not unlike Set who was boring.
Draco Spirit 03-01-08, 10:21 AM	I think the reason why Yondala may have got the snip is this.. Shes nither dark nor sexy. Which is rather sad really, becuse Yondella one of the dieties I can imagien female players (especialy of certin age) might find appeling. :(
ripvanwormer 03-01-08, 11:52 AM	I think the reason it was retconned had to do with game rules - they didn't want to impose level limits on anyone, quite simply. If they allowed male clerics of Lolth, they'd have to be able to advance as far as a female cleric, and that didn't fit with the flavour of Lolth's church. I'd make a distinction between character level and rank in the church hierarchy. I'd argue that Lolth could grant spells to male clerics, who need have no level limit other than their own potential, without drow society accepting them as having the same political power as a female cleric.
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 06:57 PM	In my games, Chauntaea is Yondalla. ;-)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-01-08, 10:47 PM	Erm.. Yonadallas boring? How that work, I find her a fascinating deity. You'll have to ask the designers, since they didn't explain their reasoning in Worlds and Monsters.:) That's one complaint I have about these preview books, actually. The author of a particular article will state that such-and-such is boring but sometimes not explain why, as if they just expect that everyone else agrees with them.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-01-08, 10:49 PM	I think that demi-human dieties not existing, is kinda also like saying that the human dieties will no longer exist. Its just going to be super-powers selling various beings what they want to see in return for the power they gain through worship. That is more or less the vibe I've been getting regarding the 4E deities. They aren't as closely tied to race as they used to be.
sfdragon 03-02-08, 12:53 AM	yes but i thought the world and races books were to sneak peek the core books, which FR,GH, and whatnot gods wont be in them anyway
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 01:29 AM	yes but i thought the world and races books were to sneak peek the core books, which FR,GH, and whatnot gods wont be in them anyway -There is no 'Core World'. From what I understand, those preview books reflect the thoughts and ideas of the designers when updating and reconfiguring things. All things.
sfdragon 03-02-08, 04:46 AM	points of light is the phb world
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 04:49 AM	points of light is the phb world -Again, there isn't an actual world anywhere. All of these ideas are just concepts the designers had in mind when making the 4e revisions to the rules, the settings, etc.
sfdragon 03-02-08, 01:20 PM	and now this would be where the we'll wait and see comment would come in to being wouldnt it?
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 04:47 PM	and now this would be where the we'll wait and see comment would come in to being wouldnt it? -No...It's a fact that there is no actual 'setting' where all of these design concepts are being applied. PseudoGreyhawk isn't the 'Core Setting' anymore, like it was in 3e. The Forgotten Realms isn't the 'Core Setting', Eberron isn't the 'Core Setting'. There is no 'Core Setting', as a place where a person can pick up a 'campaign guide' and go playing.
MarkusTay63 03-02-08, 05:18 PM	Considering the new look of the FR books - NO LOGO! - I have a VERY bad feeling about what is going to be core and what is not... :( On Topic: Vhaeruan is 'gone', right? I had always hoped that he and Mask were really one and the same, but I suppose there is no way that is possible now, eh? :confused:
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 06:03 PM	Vhaeruan is 'gone', right? -Eh, not really. He was absorbed by Eilistraee. It seems that his sentience merged with hers. Technically, you could say that both Vhaeraun and Eilistraee don't exist anymore. However, at the same time, you can say that both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun do exist. I had always hoped that he and Mask were really one and the same, but I suppose there is no way that is possible now, eh? :confused: -Vhaeraun is a much older deity than Mask. However, you can still continue to escribe to this theory. We have it in canon that aspects of a deity can 'break off' and act independently of the deity, becoming it's own thing- Eshadowe (I don't think I spelled that correctly) and Shar, being that example. So, you can always have it in your own campaign that Mask was an aspect of Vhaeraun that simply 'broke off'. Perhaps Vhaeraun forsaw his eventual dimise, and created Mask a la Bane and Ixychtu Xvim.
Soltares 03-03-08, 01:48 PM	hey i like yondalla too, she wasnt boring, not unlike Set who was boring. I kinda like Set. (Of the Egyptians, I like Thoth and Sobek more.) Yondalla's okay in my book, too. But Arvoreen, he's my favorite Halfling diety. The little warrior in his little breastplate with that so-serious look on his little face. He's like a little gladiator plushie! So adorable! Whathisnut Glittergold is my least favorite Gnome diety. Flandaal Steelskin and the dude with the Racoon (Chiktika Fastpaws?), Segojan Earthcaller, all awesome. I even like the creepy evil naked mole rat-god, Urdlen the Crawler Below, or whatever. The elven dieties from 1st and 2nd edition were awesome too. Corellon, Deep, Aerdrie, Rillifane, Solonor, Labelas and Hanali are all faves. And hey, my least favorite ever, that weird imposter who claims that she created the elves and that Corellon's a big liar, and that Lolth was never his wife, Sehanine Moonbow, she's gonna make it into 4th edition! Wow. All of my favorites, ****** away, and that lame last minute continuity-devouring retcon Sehanine makes the cut.
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 03:23 PM	-Urdlen is the coolest Gnome deity, and Urogalan is the coolest Halfling deity. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-03-08, 04:23 PM	yes but i thought the world and races books were to sneak peek the core books, which FR,GH, and whatnot gods wont be in them anyway That doesn't mean what applies to "Core" won't apply to the other settings though. As far as I've seen, a lot of the changes to the Realms setting bring it very much in line with the design conceits laid out in Worlds and Monsters (for example, making the world's landscape more "fantastic" with flying motes and whatnot).
sfdragon 03-04-08, 04:42 AM	That doesn't mean what applies to "Core" won't apply to the other settings though. As far as I've seen, a lot of the changes to the Realms setting bring it very much in line with the design conceits laid out in Worlds and Monsters (for example, making the world's landscape more "fantastic" with flying motes and whatnot). doesnt mean it will either, but i see your point
Valgard 03-04-08, 11:34 AM	Whathisnut Glittergold is my least favorite Gnome diety. Flandaal Steelskin and the dude with the Racoon (Chiktika Fastpaws?), Segojan Earthcaller, all awesome. I even like the creepy evil naked mole rat-god, Urdlen the Crawler Below, or whatever. Chiktikka Fastpaws is Baervan Wildwanderer's giant racoon. As I weren't here before 3rd Edition, I don't know much about him (designers didn't have him make many things) in previous editions, but in Faiths and Pantheons they two are told to live some adventures as if those were a gnomish cartoon TV series called: from the creators of Droids: The Adventures of R2-D2 and C-3PO... The Fantastical, Extraordinary and Awesome Adventures of Baervan Wildwanderer and Chiktikka Fastpaws That aspect for a gnome god liked me a lot... that's why he is my favourite gnome deity, and for any gnome character from an illusionist to a druid, passing through bard, he is a perfect deity.
MarkusTay63 03-04-08, 12:51 PM	*Meh* Just keep Lolth and Gruumsh and get rid of the rest. ;) :P
Alediran 03-04-08, 01:57 PM	*Meh* Just keep Lolth and Gruumsh and get rid of the rest. *The Seldarine appear and convert MarkusTay into a Sun Elf*
Lord Karsus 03-04-08, 01:59 PM	*The Seldarine appear and convert MarkusTay into a Sun Elf* -He's more of a Moon Elf, perhaps a Star Elf.