Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Todesherr 09-01-07, 08:19 AM	Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OK, I am waiting with baited breath:) .
ywhtptgtfo 09-01-07, 11:05 PM	I am sorry, a lot of the details in Storm of the Dead are lame, but since you want to be spoiled: 1) Kiaransalee joined the sava game that's played by Lolth and Eilistraee. Her followers spent much of the book fighting against Eilistraee's faithful. In the end, Hallistra's brother killed Kiaransalee by casting a god-killing spell that erases her name from reality (very low casting time and material requirements btw, and you don't need to be level 41). 2) Tension arises between the traditional followers of Eilistraee and the new converts from Vhaeraun (non-violent, unfortunately). Qilue is apparenly possessed/corrupted by Vhaeraun's divine essence. 3) Cavatina killed Wendonai, a powerful balor that serves Lolth. 4) Hallistra was running around doing nothing throughout most of the book. It's probably as penance to her poor performance in WotSQ - i.e. NO MORE BIG ROLES FOR YOU GIRL 5) Faezness is apparently a sort of magical energy created by Aryvandaar's "domination magic" to lure the drow into the underdark (i.e. drow has a subconcious addiction for Faezness. 6) House Melarn is of Miyeritar ancestry and is uncorrupted by Lolth. Caution: Do not apply genetics and pedigrees onto this, as this plot device wouldn't make any sense when you do. Anyway, in case Big Sister wants to censore my post because of its novel-related theme, I'd clarify that the contents of this post are purely statements of canon PnP information derived from a canon source. There is almost not criticism about the quality of the book and author, although my feedback on the book is available here (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9840).
Green Elven Vampire 09-01-07, 11:16 PM	Kiaransalee is Dead??
Sosthenes 09-02-07, 05:48 PM	She's passed on. She is no more. She has ceased to be. Bereft of life, she is. Well, probably not really. Elven high magic made every believer forget her name. Which worked nicely on Orcus before -- or didn't it? She certainly has some backdoors left, if the end of the series ends with a big loop to the start of the series, pantheon-wise. Not that we really need yet another undead-god(dess)...
Todesherr 09-02-07, 07:16 PM	She's passed on. She is no more. She has ceased to be. Bereft of life, she is. Well, probably not really. Elven high magic made every believer forget her name. Which worked nicely on Orcus before -- or didn't it? She certainly has some backdoors left, if the end of the series ends with a big loop to the start of the series, pantheon-wise. Not that we really need yet another undead-god(dess)... Velsharoon....:emp:
GoukaRyuu 09-02-07, 07:26 PM	She's passed on. She is no more. She has ceased to be. Bereft of life, she is.... pushing up the daisies. She is an ex-parrot...err...deity. Sorry, couldn't resist. :D
Lord Karsus 09-04-07, 03:43 PM	Anyway, in case Big Sister wants to censore my post because of its novel-related theme... -Sadly, Big Sis doesn't..."work" here anymore. Kiaransalee is Dead?? -Again. She was dead to begin with, remember? Elven high magic made every believer forget her name. Which worked nicely on Orcus before -- or didn't it? -Elven High Magic was not what Kiaransalee used to "erase" Orcus' name from the history books.
GothicDan 09-04-07, 04:41 PM	Wow. Just. Wow.
Sosthenes 09-04-07, 05:36 PM	Elven High Magic was not what Kiaransalee used to "erase" Orcus' name from the history books. Different tool, same approach. Is EHM supposed to be better than godly power?
SmartPaladin 09-04-07, 05:45 PM	Different tool, same approach. Is EHM supposed to be better than godly power? I don't think so, but I'm pretty sure Corellon Larethian is backing the Elven High Magic. So one could almost say he snuffed her. :P
GothicDan 09-04-07, 07:38 PM	Except for the fact that in 3E EHM is just Epic Spellcasting. There's no actual mention of Corellon.
Lord Karsus 09-04-07, 08:30 PM	Wow. Just. Wow. -I know, isn't it just wacky, in a bad way?
buzzard 09-05-07, 07:39 AM	Didn't Mystra ban this kind of spells? I mean, what if someone uses it against a more important deity?
Sosthenes 09-05-07, 08:42 AM	Maybe Mystra was watching and decided to allow it, as the circumstances pretty much ensured that it's a one-time thing -- for now.
Lord Karsus 09-05-07, 09:25 AM	Didn't Mystra ban this kind of spells? I mean, what if someone uses it against a more important deity? -Mystra has banned 10+ Level Magic (True Magic). She never banned Epic Magic, however.
Zireael 09-10-07, 10:01 AM	So the only deities of the drow that are left are Eilistraee and Lloth.:( :( :(
Zanan 09-10-07, 11:14 AM	So the only deities of the drow that are left are Eilistraee and Lloth.:( :( :( Not exactly sure about this. Kia is "gone", but how far isn't sure. Ghaunadaur is still around (though you are right in assuming that he isn't a true drow deity). And Lolth is of course Lolth, not Lloth! ;)
DarkSongKnight 09-10-07, 12:25 PM	Here is an overview of the book I posted in another thread. There have been some major changes in Eilistraee's faith. It is set in 1376, and it has been near two years since Eilistraee killed and absorbed Vhaeraun. In that time, males have become accepted (well, tolerated is a better word) in her faith as clerics. These males are mostly the "nightshadows" from Vhaeraun's faith that now serve "The Masked Lady." They participate in High Hunts, running around naked like the priestesses. You can imagine the effect this has had on after-ritual activities. Eilistraee's symbol now appears to be a half-moon. Part of it moonlight, part of it shadow. She also accepts more underhanded means of dealing with foes, including using assassins (the nightshadows). There is a split in the faith. Those who cling to the older worship styles of Eilistraee, and the newer ones who accept her shadow aspect. Cavatina (drow Clr 14/Ftr 8), the DarksongKnight that defeated Selvetarm in the first novel, still clings to the older ways of worship, and is somewhat resentful and suspicious of the males. There is a great part of a chapter, that describes her on the High Hunt. It really does an incredible job at describing what it would be like to be an Eilistraeen on the High Hunt. I particularly enjoyed that bit. It later goes on to say that she pretty much ignored the shadows that came along with the moonlight in her clerical powers. She is later betrayed by Halisstra and captured by Wendonai. She is tied up, but not gagged. He tries to make her bitter, poking at her weakness that she will never be redeemed. She sees the flaw in that logic, as the ritual of redemption had to be made for something. She then realizes that redemption isn't so much about turning from "evil" to "good," but more about facing one's own weaknesses and fears, and overcoming them for the better. Eilistraee herself then manifests protective powers long enough over Cavatina, to allow the DarksongKnight the chance to kill Wendonai. Oh yeah, she also leads a battle against the Acropolis of Thanatos, Kiaransalee's main temple, and they would have lost if the wizard drow (Q' something?) hadn't erased her name. He did this to keep the voidstone that the followers of Kiaransalee were going to use to summon an undead army into the world, from making faezress (sp?) stronger, and thus luring more drow back from the surface into the underdark. Apparently, faezress was part of the High Magic ritual used during the descent. The faezress lured the drow into the underdark. There is a conspiracy theory held by one of Vhaeraun's faithful that Vhaeraun has merely disguised himself as Eilistraee in order to allow his faithful to sneak into Eilistraee's strongholds of power, and to test his faithful. The heretic also adds that the time will come for the Masked Lord to reclaim those who have been faithful, etc. A nightshadow assassin was sent to kill him, but he convinces the assassin that what he says is true. That same nightshadow goes on to lead the nightshadow section of the crusade against the Acropolis, alongside Cavatina. For some reasons, the priestesses of Eilistraee wanted that follower of Vhaeraun dead because the priestesses were saying that it was Eilistraee who went into Vhaeraun's plane and killed him, and not the other way around. I'm not sure why it would be important as to which deity entered who's domain, as Vhaeraun is apparently dead either way. There have also been some odd going-ons with Qilue. She "attunes" herself to the Crescent Blade, and accepts the change in her faith without a second thought. There is one part where Cavatina gets irked that a male walks into the Cavern of Song and begins singing, as only females had sang there non-stop for all the years that the Promenade had been founded. She contacts Qilue, who responds with a mere "that has to change to" or something along the lines thereof.
Lord Karsus 09-10-07, 12:46 PM	Ghaunadaur is still around (though you are right in assuming that he isn't a true drow deity). -You know, now Ghaunadaur should be stronger than ever...Think of all of those outcasts running around now, looking for some way to get power...
Zanan 09-10-07, 01:25 PM	@ Darksong Knight ... Ed once described Qilué as the "Godslayer" and, latter on noted that Lolth will always remain his primary drow deity (underground). Do note that we know next to nothing about the allegiances of the other surfaces drow. I doubt that Jezz and his fellow wizards and fighters and rogues will simply switch their faith too ... rather root out the sudden herecy in their midst and look for something else for divine (i.e. healing) aid. @ Lord Karsus ... there are not enough drow depraved enough to follow the slimy one. And there are much better options like various demon and devil lords, Shar, Mask, Loviatar, Hoar et al ...
Lord Karsus 09-10-07, 03:53 PM	@ Lord Karsus ... there are not enough drow depraved enough to follow the slimy one. And there are much better options like various demon and devil lords, Shar, Mask, Loviatar, Hoar et al ... -So true. But, don't disregard how easily Ghaunadaur hands out power. You invoke it once, and you have a best friend for life, or until it tires of you, whichever comes first. Shar, Mask (especially with recent going-ons), Loviatar, Hoar, as well as so many other deities, are a little more stingy with aiding those who invoke them. -And, considering so many of the drastic changes that have gone on in Drow society in the past four years (1372-1376), I'm sure the population of disenfranchised and slightly insane outcasts has risen. Think about if so much changed in a relativley short period of time in actual life. I know that I might become a bit disgruntled. Enough to envoke the power of Ghaunadaur, and champion the Elder Elemental deity? Who knows...
SmartPaladin 09-12-07, 02:23 AM	@ Lord Karsus ... there are not enough drow depraved enough to follow the slimy one. And there are much better options like various demon and devil lords, Shar, Mask, Loviatar, Hoar et al ... You named Hoar... *sniffs, then cries and hugs tight* What? I love Hoar. :P -So true. But, don't disregard how easily Ghaunadaur hands out power. You invoke it once, and you have a best friend for life, or until it tires of you, whichever comes first. Shar, Mask (especially with recent going-ons), Loviatar, Hoar, as well as so many other deities, are a little more stingy with aiding those who invoke them. Unlikely with Hoar. Guy has few worshipers, so if you invoke his name, chances are he'll show up to see what you want, and to try and get you to convert to his faith. Dude's at the point where he has nothing to lose. And that makes him dangerous.
Zanan 09-12-07, 04:29 AM	Strange that Bane did not strike my mind immediately, given his portfolio of Tyranny :D. He'd love to have tons of tyrannical and mean House Matrons at his fingertips ...
Lord Karsus 09-12-07, 12:34 PM	Strange that Bane did not strike my mind immediately, given his portfolio of Tyranny :D. He'd love to have tons of tyrannical and mean House Matrons at his fingertips ... -Drow society is too chaotic for a guy like Bane. Unlikely with Hoar. Guy has few worshipers, so if you invoke his name, chances are he'll show up to see what you want, and to try and get you to convert to his faith. Dude's at the point where he has nothing to lose. And that makes him dangerous. -I don't think he's that bad off...
SmartPaladin 09-12-07, 05:25 PM	-I don't think he's that bad off... Would you want to put money on it? Because unless some new info came up saying that Hoar got a boost of power, I think he's going to continue to roaming Faerūn, answering the calls for Vengeance and seeking more worshipers.
Lord Karsus 09-13-07, 12:28 AM	Would you want to put money on it? Because unless some new info came up saying that Hoar got a boost of power, I think he's going to continue to roaming Faerūn, answering the calls for Vengeance and seeking more worshipers. -Recent novels feature Hoarites(?) did not portray Hoar to be in such a...'desperate' state. Though, novels do not always portray things 'as is'.
SmartPaladin 09-13-07, 01:46 AM	-Recent novels feature Hoarites(?) did not portray Hoar to be in such a...'desperate' state. Though, novels do not always portray things 'as is'. This is true. Though F&P seemed to... How many other novels have Hoarites anyway? I only know of Bloodwalk, which I enjoyed. I was even half expecting Ghostwalker to have a Hoarite, but no. He was a Tyrite. Side-note: I prefer adding the "ites" at the end over the "ran". And Quin from Bloodwalk was referred as a "Hoarite".
Lord Karsus 09-13-07, 10:27 AM	How many other novels have Hoarites anyway? -Just Bloodwalk, as far as I know. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-13-07, 12:51 PM	There's a priest of Hoar in the House of Serpents trilogy, as well.
SmartPaladin 09-13-07, 08:13 PM	There's a priest of Hoar in the House of Serpents trilogy, as well. Oooh... Coolness. Guess I'll be picking that one up next. Thanks.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-13-07, 09:00 PM	Oooh... Coolness. Guess I'll be picking that one up next. Thanks. Welcome.:)
Zanan 09-14-07, 10:48 AM	-Drow society is too chaotic for a guy like Bane. Well, they are in for some change anyway, are they not? BTW, I don't think that society as such is chaotic ... the priestesses tend to be though. Society is strictly hierarchical and militaristic - neither goes well being outright chaotic. Hence I agreed to the change of the drow overall alignment to Neutral Evil. Obviously, DotUD made a total hash of that again, but that's just me. Many decent enough choices around, though a less theocratic society would keep the drow's status as well. It is not that everyone will just simply snap and get's brainwashed in case a deity goes bust. Drow society essentially just experienced this during the Silence. Who will tell the average drow what is going on up in Planelands? Some sneaky Eilistraeen missionary? How long will somesuch survive in a place were wizards are bound for power-games?
Lord Karsus 09-14-07, 11:17 AM	Well, they are in for some change anyway, are they not? BTW, I don't think that society as such is chaotic ... the priestesses tend to be though. Society is strictly hierarchical and militaristic - neither goes well being outright chaotic. Hence I agreed to the change of the drow overall alignment to Neutral Evil. Obviously, DotUD made a total hash of that again, but that's just me. -Are they in for changes? Assuming that the Lolth/Eilistraee conflict has an explosive ending... -That much said, I still believe that Drow society is still too chaotic for Bane. Individual Drow are constantly vying for power, and killing each other off because of it. On a larger scale, entire Drow houses do the same thing to each other. Political alliances are not steady at all, and they usually come with no rhyme or reason. Drow society could appeal to Bane if it was worked on a little, but as it is now, I don't think he'd like it very much.
Red_Wizard 09-14-07, 11:48 AM	Perhaps it is Cyrics time to shine again. Drow are an untapped resource for chaos with the greater human gods, and then maybe he can get rid of Kelemvor and we can pretend his whole fall from power never happened. *Looks at you with large hopeful eyes* Maybe?
Zanan 09-14-07, 11:49 AM	Nothing in Bane's dogma, history or way of worship has struck me as downright and strictly Lawful or anti-chaotic.
Lord Karsus 09-14-07, 10:26 PM	Nothing in Bane's dogma, history or way of worship has struck me as downright and strictly Lawful or anti-chaotic. -Well, there is the fact that Bane himself is LE, all of his Clerics are either LE, NE, or LN, the fact that he tolerates "a limited amount of dischord and debauchery", and the fact that his temples reflect his clergy's "regimented doctrines". -That said, if the Drow cleaned up their act a little, and, as a whole, shifted to the right (Towards Lawful), they'd be a good fit. Note, that I still consider Drow Chaotic Evil. Perhaps it is Cyrics time to shine again. Drow are an untapped resource for chaos with the greater human gods, and then maybe he can get rid of Kelemvor and we can pretend his whole fall from power never happened. *Looks at you with large hopeful eyes* Maybe? -Not exactly... -Apparently, Cyric get imprisoned, after he might have involved himself in the assassination of Mystra. Yeah, I know...:rolleyes:
Red_Wizard 09-15-07, 10:53 AM	-Not exactly... -Apparently, Cyric get imprisoned, after he might have involved himself in the assassination of Mystra. Yeah, I know...:rolleyes: Yeah I know, but a guy can pretend for awhile. I went back to "Prince of lies" and despite the outcome, I figure if I read and hope, maybe it'll all end differently. ;) :P
Zanan 09-15-07, 01:05 PM	Going by the info about events leading up the FR 4E, I would assume Loviatar will be a greater goddess soon. All the pain handed out clearly needs to be focussed and who better to train you than, well, you know ...
SmartPaladin 09-15-07, 01:25 PM	Going by the info about events leading up the FR 4E, I would assume Loviatar will be a greater goddess soon. All the pain handed out clearly needs to be focussed and who better to train you than, well, you know ... And... Er, you know what? Nevermind... I think I've beat this poor horse into mush. I'll just wait to see if Hoar ether gets a power boost, or the axe. I figure with most of the stuff going on, him not getting a boost is unlikely.
immortalami 09-15-07, 08:56 PM	What I dont understand is, How did Cavatina NOT become a Demi-God, after killing Selvetarm in the Demon Web Pits? I mean Finder became a god by killing Moander in his home plane, how did this not work for Cavatina?
Red_Wizard 09-15-07, 09:48 PM	A mortal can not simply kill a god and assume their portfolio. They must be sponsored by a greater power, and the matter is then taken before Ao, or Ao himself ascends them to the position.
Straploknight 09-15-07, 09:57 PM	A mortal can not simply kill a god and assume their portfolio. They must be sponsored by a greater power, and the matter is then taken before Ao, or Ao himself ascends them to the position. Sounds like a job for the ghost of Johnny Cochrane and the unbeatable wookie defense!
Lord Karsus 09-16-07, 05:55 PM	Sounds like a job for the ghost of Johnny Cochrane and the unbeatable wookie defense! -He might just be a petitioner in the Demonweb Pits, too. Lies, Chaos, Intrigue...Either Lolth's domain, or Cyric's domain.
Mirtek 09-19-07, 12:04 PM	What I dont understand is, How did Cavatina NOT become a Demi-God, after killing Selvetarm in the Demon Web Pits? I mean Finder became a god by killing Moander in his home plane, how did this not work for Cavatina? First of all: No mortal can slay a deity without divine aid of annother deity. So Cavatina was most likely a unknowing vessel of either Lolth or Elistrae. Second: Slaying a deity doesn't make you a deity. Ao may decided that the slain deities status goes to the slayer, but he also might decide to just split it among the nex likely deities.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-19-07, 02:41 PM	Second: Slaying a deity doesn't make you a deity. Yes, and Ed Greenwood has confirmed this.
stunspore 09-22-07, 04:14 AM	According to old planescape, even if a god loses all worshippers and is forgotten, they are able to live for a few more centuries, sort of the equivalent of starving. Don't know why that is so different in this setting. Although considering that Kiranslee erased Orcus's name before and managed to come back, don't see what is stopping kiranslee.
Lord Karsus 09-22-07, 06:45 PM	According to old planescape, even if a god loses all worshippers and is forgotten, they are able to live for a few more centuries, sort of the equivalent of starving. Don't know why that is so different in this setting. Although considering that Kiranslee erased Orcus's name before and managed to come back, don't see what is stopping kiranslee. -Well, Kiaransalee isn't necessarily dead, per se. In Realmspace, she might now be completely forgotten, and not have any worshippers, but in other Crystal Spheres, she might have worshippers. Thus, she now only exists there, for the time being.
Zanan 09-22-07, 07:06 PM	Well, there are a few things that went over board here. First, it is not even clear who killed Selvetarm - Cavatina in the Demonweb Pit (which was possible, as he's "just" a Demigod and on his home plane), or Lolth at the Sava table. It is written in TGHotR that Lolth absorbed his worshippers, so his power probably went to her, whether Cavatina got something remains to be seen. Second ... Orcus is apparently a toy chief designers like Chris Perkins cannot live without, so whatever rules there were for god-slaying or fiend-slaying, Orcus will be the prime exception. Third ... the ritual used to erase Kiaransalee's name would only have effected those drow under the direct influence of faerzress at the time of casting, so the memory of her is hardly lost. Fourth ... the actually casting leaves far too many loopholes - not least that it only erased her name, not her titles, aliases etc. pp.. "Killing" her by erasing her name was IMHO nigh impossible. Fifth ... part three and four of the above is irrelevant, as LP II and TGHotR simply confirmed that de jure and de facto, Kiaransalee is gone. Whatever rules or loopholes there were do simply not matter. Zero-ruling the rules is what galls me most here. (And it does not exactly matter that it was Kia who bit the bullet.)
Lord Karsus 09-22-07, 07:28 PM	It is written in TGHotR that Lolth absorbed his worshippers, so his power probably went to her, whether Cavatina got something remains to be seen. -She absorbed his worshippers, yes, but there is nothing that mentions, or even hints, really, where Selvetarm's 'Divine Spark' went. -Lolth virtually controlled Selvetarm's clergy and worshippers to begin with, anyway. They operated- with a few, small exceptions- with the "blessings" and under the watchful eye of Lolth and her clergy.
ywhtptgtfo 09-22-07, 10:44 PM	Did Lisa answer your e-mail about this? Well, there are a few things that went over board here. First, it is not even clear who killed Selvetarm - Cavatina in the Demonweb Pit (which was possible, as he's "just" a Demigod and on his home plane), or Lolth at the Sava table. It is written in TGHotR that Lolth absorbed his worshippers, so his power probably went to her, whether Cavatina got something remains to be seen. Second ... Orcus is apparently a toy chief designers like Chris Perkins cannot live without, so whatever rules there were for god-slaying or fiend-slaying, Orcus will be the prime exception. Third ... the ritual used to erase Kiaransalee's name would only have effected those drow under the direct influence of faerzress at the time of casting, so the memory of her is hardly lost. Fourth ... the actually casting leaves far too many loopholes - not least that it only erased her name, not her titles, aliases etc. pp.. "Killing" her by erasing her name was IMHO nigh impossible. Fifth ... part three and four of the above is irrelevant, as LP II and TGHotR simply confirmed that de jure and de facto, Kiaransalee is gone. Whatever rules or loopholes there were do simply not matter. Zero-ruling the rules is what galls me most here. (And it does not exactly matter that it was Kia who bit the bullet.)
Mirtek 09-23-07, 06:58 AM	Cavatina in the Demonweb Pit (which was possible, as he's "just" a Demigod and on his home plane Even a demigod can not be slain by a mortal without divine blessing.
Todesherr 09-23-07, 07:08 AM	Even a demigod can not be slain by a mortal without divine blessing. Selbst ein Halbgott kann nicht vom Sterblichen ohne goettliche Segnung erschlagen werden.
Zanan 09-23-07, 11:55 AM	Even a demigod can not be slain by a mortal without divine blessing. Faiths & Avatars, p.14. Cavatina uses an artifact, faces the avatar in person and on his home soil. She needs nothing more. @ ywhtptgtfo ... your guess is? Essentially, she got the message to do what she did and in the end, the means do not exactly matter.
ywhtptgtfo 09-23-07, 05:39 PM	The means do not exactly matter? That's very sloppy of her... @ ywhtptgtfo ... your guess is? Essentially, she got the message to do what she did and in the end, the means do not exactly matter.
Mirtek 09-24-07, 05:05 PM	Faiths & Avatars, p.14. Cavatina uses an artifact, faces the avatar in person and on his home soil. She needs nothing more. Which has been contradicted by the F&P Web Enhancement which is the newer source. Also F&A says that even during the very special case of the ToT no power has been slain by a mortal. Anyway, Kiaranshalee was a lesser power and even if we assume that the little spell wasn't complete nonesense anyway (which I think it was, no way such high magic could be casually cast by a single caster, as a long and difficult ritual with several high magic casters and non-epic casters as auxiliaries it would be annother case), Kia should still have divine power left to go on for centuries until she starves to death (like you already said).
Lord Karsus 09-24-07, 06:52 PM	...which I think it was, no way such high magic could be casually cast by a single caster, as a long and difficult ritual with several high magic casters and non-epic casters as auxiliaries it would be annother case... -Many Elven High Magic spells can be cast by single casters. It is a misconception that all spells must be cast by a Circle.
Zanan 09-24-07, 07:35 PM	The F&P web-enhancement said something about the killing of deities? BTW, we do speak about Selvetarm, do we not? The problem, as I said, is that we do not actually know who slew him, Cavatina in person or Lolth at the sava table. Kiaransalee's disposal was in many ways flawed, rule-wise, but - that's what I implied, ywhtptgtfo - it does not exactly matter these days. She was ordered to be disposed off and she was. Another magical ritual - less constructed and without that many loopholes - might have done the trick just as well. What irked me more was the way the Kiaransaleens were described, leaving certain aspects of their cult and faiths virtually unmentioned, while putting others (actually just one) to the forefront. Cackling half-mad necromancer hags with rancid fat-painted skulls? Aye right. That will leave a lasting impression. BTW, unless I am mistaken, the whole faerzress affair the Kiaransaleens were up to was entirely the opposite of what they tried in CotSQ. Why would they lure the drow back into the Underdark? Or maybe I got that wrong ...
Lord Karsus 09-24-07, 11:37 PM	BTW, we do speak about Selvetarm, do we not? The problem, as I said, is that we do not actually know who slew him, Cavatina in person or Lolth at the sava table. -I, personally, felt that the "goings on" at the Sava table were more metaphysical than actual physical reality. Since we know that deities in the Realms aren't omnipotent or omniscient, it doesn't make too much sense that Eilistraee moving a piece on the board causes an individual to do something. Deities can't do that. The only way I can see that situation working out is if the Sava table was more akin to a crystak ball, or something like that, where the pieces moved on their own accord. You know what I mean? I don't know if I'm expressing myself correctly or not... -Anyway, if all that's the case, then Cavatina, in person, was the one who slew Selvatarm.
Zanan 09-25-07, 04:39 AM	-Anyway, if all that's the case, then Cavatina, in person, was the one who slew Selvatarm. That's what I think and that is how it I understood it. Did she get some of his divinity along the way? Reading LP II, it does not seem like that. Obviously, according to her stats (RoUM) she has been propelled to the most powerful (level-wise) Eilistraeen out of nowhere ... (BTW ... she did kill Wendonai (did she really - given that he flew off the sava board?) as well (CR what?) and he did not explode either, a little let-off.)
Aldareth 09-25-07, 07:06 AM	all of you should become lawyers... just chill a little and look at the things a little more relaxed. here some thoughts of me: 1. the elven high magic ritual... a.)as i read the book i never had the impression that quarlynd castet the ritual... my impression was that the spirit(s) of the selu kiira castet the spell and quarlynd and his companions was just vessels for the spirits... b.) regarding the "erasing" of the name of kiaransalee, imagine if the autor start writting...so the spell erased the name kiaransalee, the name queen of the dead , the name the dead ***** and all the names that are known and not...i am sure that would be 2-3 pages full of good lore about the names of kia for the really intrested FR players but really boring for others...so i just say that erasing the name kiaransalee would include all possible names and titles of her and i asume that the miryietar dark elven highmages just know how to word that spell 2. wendonai... he is not dead just remember he is not the usual balor and that he is not lolths favor anymore ( lost empires), so it just could be that lolth wanted to get him off and wendonai tricked her...
Zanan 09-25-07, 08:47 AM	Regarding 1 b) we had about 300 pages to be filled and about a dozen feature the casting of the spell as such, yet not much detail. Q'arlynd had the idea and lucky boy he was, it worked! Cavatina ... p. 295 She remembered what they called themselves - Crones* - and that they served a goddes of death. But try as she might, she couldn't remember that goddess' name. It is explicatly said that only her name was erased from their worshippers' memory. In any case, lots of lore about the faith was disregarded and only their death-magic meddling was put to the fore. No Yathrinshee, no Larynda Telenna, no Banshee Knights ... compared to what we learned about the intentions of the Selvetarmites and the Vhaeraunians, this part was a bit of a let down. *BTW, that us the name they are known under. They have their own titles, as usual.
Aldareth 09-25-07, 09:41 AM	so another aproach to the whole thing , what if the ritual was combined with a (lost dark elven ) bit of true name magic that just rendered kia powerless in realmspace , so literally "killing" her, at least we have allready an example from preventing gods to enter the realmspace ( imaskar) and i have to confess that i dont like it either that mortals are capable to kill a god with a simple ritual... OT. if this was a high magic ritual it would be fun to know if there was a unknown jet backslash , we allready know that every time they tried something powerfull , something terrible followed ( maybe the trigger , that leads to the *dumdumdum* spellplague ? :D )
Mirtek 09-25-07, 11:08 AM	The F&P web-enhancement said something about the killing of deities? F&P Web Enhancement, page 6: One final point to remember is the general rule of the FORGOTTEN REALMS cosmology: Only a deity can truly destroy another deity. [...] Mortals can harm demigods most easily, since they are the weakest sort of deity with the fewest worshipers and servants, but even a demigod cannot be truly destroyed by a mortal. -I, personally, felt that the "goings on" at the Sava table were more metaphysical than actual physical reality. But the metaphysical level is very important to deities. Just think of the Dawn Cataclysm which happened mostly on a metaphysical level detached from the the physical reality and time of the mortals, which only felt it's aftershocks -Many Elven High Magic spells can be cast by single casters. It is a misconception that all spells must be cast by a Circle. The more powerfull are the ones requiring difficult castings. And "slaying" (or just merely banishing) a divine being qualifies as such. Not much point in being a deity if every run of the mill high mage can just casually slay you. Why even bother with N'Quor'Khaor (Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves; page 137), which costs the life of at least 9 high mages and many supporting casters, if nowadays a single high mage is enough to all alone defeat a lesser goddess and live to brag about it?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-25-07, 01:59 PM	Yes, it does seem to me that being a god doesn't mean that much anymore--they are just another type of monster to be killed by mortals. The other gods had better watch out...if there are high mages who don't like them, they're in for it!:rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 09-25-07, 03:14 PM	Obviously, according to her stats (RoUM) she has been propelled to the most powerful (level-wise) Eilistraeen out of nowhere ... -She has stats? What are they? But the metaphysical level is very important to deities. Just think of the Dawn Cataclysm which happened mostly on a metaphysical level detached from the the physical reality and time of the mortals, which only felt it's aftershocks. -In this case, we need to choose 'when' exactly Selvatarm was killed. I say that he was slain in our physical reality simply because of the fact that Lolth is not remotely omnipotent, and cannot order Selvetarm's death by simply willing it, as she did. The more powerfull are the ones requiring difficult castings. And "slaying" (or just merely banishing) a divine being qualifies as such. Not much point in being a deity if every run of the mill high mage can just casually slay you. Why even bother with N'Quor'Khaor (Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves; page 137), which costs the life of at least 9 high mages and many supporting casters, if nowadays a single high mage is enough to all alone defeat a lesser goddess and live to brag about it? -I didn't say that I agreed with any of that. I was simply raising awareness that not all Elven High Magic rituals needed a Circle.
Zanan 09-25-07, 06:53 PM	-She has stats? What are they? Well, we only know her levels, Darksong Knight* 8 / Cleric 14. As for the killing ... of course you cannot truly kill a deity, since it's corpse goes off into the Astral ... and can be accessed via the Servant of the Fallen feat. (If the character knows that s/he can do that.) *Champions of Valor substitution levels for Fighter. Essentially a conversion of the "Crusaders of Eilistraee" as described in DD.
Lord Karsus 09-25-07, 07:39 PM	Well, we only know her levels, Darksong Knight* 8 / Cleric 14. -Wow. That seems...incredibly inflated, all things considering.
Zanan 09-26-07, 04:10 AM	-Wow. That seems...incredibly inflated, all things considering. Well, almost any (as in ANY) Drow - NPC that we know off, especially the multiclassed ones got toned down quite considerably. Enter WotSQ where suddenly a handful of NPCs spring into existence who range around level 15 to 19 - topping some long established matrons by 5 to 10 levels! Well, we'll see how it all translates into 4E. (Even though not all of us really want to know.)
ywhtptgtfo 09-26-07, 05:14 PM	That's true. I get no impression from Lisa Smedman's novel that Cavatina is anyone truly exceptional. She killed both Selvetarm and Wendonai only because Lolth allowed her to. Now, let us not even consider the Matron Mothers. Danifae, Hallistra, Quenthel, and Triel are all at least 2 levels below Cavatina and as we already know, the 4 are among the strongest followers of Lolth - a deity who selects only the strongest of her followers. If my memory serves, she is also supposedly on par with Erevis Cale.
Aldareth 09-27-07, 02:33 AM	That's true. I get no impression from Lisa Smedman's novel that Cavatina is anyone truly exceptional. She killed both Selvetarm and Wendonai only because Lolth allowed her to. Now, let us not even consider the Matron Mothers. Danifae, Hallistra, Quenthel, and Triel are all at least 2 levels below Cavatina and as we already know, the 4 are among the strongest followers of Lolth - a deity who selects only the strongest of her followers. If my memory serves, she is also supposedly on par with Erevis Cale. so maybe levels is not all about considering strength/power? what better example than the Drow Matron mothers, maybe they are more ruthless, more planning, more sheeming , more cruel, more devot and at last standing more in the favor of lolth than the more higher level clerics of lolth. and cavatina ist described as the top notch spec ops force of the promenade, second in swordskill only to quile, so nothing exceptional?
ywhtptgtfo 09-27-07, 03:31 AM	I have to disagree. Even if the attribute points of the Matron Mothers far exceed that of Cavatina, that will still not make up for the huge difference in levels. We are talking about at least 4 levels of difference for any Matron Mothers not of the First House in any known drow cities. Also, she seems more of a warrior character than a priestess. Assigning her 14 levels of cleric is rather is rather insulting to more than half of the Matron Mothers in Menzoberranzan, whose total levels are usually below 14. so maybe levels is not all about considering strength/power? what better example than the Drow Matron mothers, maybe they are more ruthless, more planning, more sheeming , more cruel, more devot and at last standing more in the favor of lolth than the more higher level clerics of lolth. and cavatina ist described as the top notch spec ops force of the promenade, second in swordskill only to quile, so nothing exceptional?
Aldareth 09-27-07, 06:38 AM	I have to disagree. Even if the attribute points of the Matron Mothers far exceed that of Cavatina, that will still not make up for the huge difference in levels. We are talking about at least 4 levels of difference for any Matron Mothers not of the First House in any known drow cities. Also, she seems more of a warrior character than a priestess. Assigning her 14 levels of cleric is rather is rather insulting to more than half of the Matron Mothers in Menzoberranzan, whose total levels are usually below 14. so we have a different understandig of power...for me a matron mother that can send dozens of drow warriors/mages to fight you has more "power" than cavatina who just takes commands even if the matron mother ist a puny lvl 6 cleric so what is so insulting? you can be a devout cleric and still combat oriented ( some noted taht dark song knight are fighter substitution lvls...here ist your warrior)
Zanan 09-27-07, 12:51 PM	There is a point in argueing about levels. These matrons clawed their way up and then they managed the house and its fate. How do you value that in class levels or XP? Whereas Cavatina - having to do most of her stuff alone - most likely accumulated XP faster. (Unless you consider that Cavatina was purpose-created and most likely never ever played.) So while personally more powerful, even a matron of a moderate house (say at level 10) wields more power, political and thus martial power. She can easily command her daughters and sons, other house people and the house's troops to do her bidding. (Unless you consider that drow martial people were also toned down to warriors and the like ...) So there is more to power than levels, of course, but I think the point made above was made clear nonetheless.
ywhtptgtfo 09-27-07, 02:27 PM	Cleric levels are not primarily about combat prowess. It has much to do with their understanding of their faith and connection to their deities. About XP accumulation, the drow are always about weeding the weak out and murdering their way up top. Before they reach the rank of a Matron Mother, their resources are not exactly as abundant as you described. Anyway, regardless of how this debate ends up, I think it should still be clear that Cavatina's levels are greatly inflated and were assigned without regards to other drow NPC's.