Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shion 04-20-07, 05:00 PM	What happens to my soul when i die? where does it goes? does Kelemvor reclaim it? I'm playing an human form Jhaamdath trapped on Quintessence ( protected form the effects of time) and he workships Auppenser who is now kind of dead ( a sleep of sorts). So if he dies where does his soul go? And a related question, what happnes to the souls of the worshippers of gos that die ( Bhaal, Myrkul, worshippers)?
PharaunMizzrym 04-22-07, 05:27 PM	The setting gives several options for the DM. One is that the planes of dead deities dont dissappear so much as break off from the known planar cosmology of Faerun. If you die worshipping a dead deity you may still go to one of those planes. You may also join the deity's dead body in the astral plane. A third possibility is that you get to join those who dont have a deity and help to form Kelemvor's wall.
shion 04-22-07, 06:00 PM	Thanks for your response, but isn't some of "official" source about this topic?
PharaunMizzrym 04-22-07, 06:02 PM	I believe it discusses this in Players Guide to Faerun and some in Lost Empires of Faerun.
Dielzen 04-22-07, 09:08 PM	pg 153 of PGtF has the false/faithless info, the feat on pg 9 of LEoF covers the fact that those rules don't apply to you, as you do have faith.
PharaunMizzrym 04-22-07, 09:50 PM	It also talks about what happens to the realms of dead deities in the section about FR cosmology.
Derren S. 04-23-07, 02:28 AM	Imo you should end up in the wall. I don't believe in worshipping dead deities no matter what LEoF says. Dead is dead even for deities.
Delendir 04-23-07, 07:04 AM	Imo you should end up in the wall. I don't believe in worshipping dead deities no matter what LEoF says. Dead is dead even for deities. Not entirely true. There are plenty of things that separate dead mortals from dead deities. One of the obvious one are that deities don't have souls, nor do they have a state of afterlife. Their bodies just simply float around in the Astral Plane. So, clearly there is a difference and once can easily explore those differences. Also, only the faithless end up in the City of the Dead and the Wall of the Faithless (if my memory serves about the name of the wall). Might sound a bit semantic, but if you have faith in a god, dead or alive, you're clearly not faithless. Put those two together, and you might have a good cause to allow people worshipping dead deities to avoid Kelemvor's punishment. At least that's how I see it.
Zireael 04-23-07, 07:17 AM	Bah, the dead deity is hard a deity anymore. So you're faithless and you end in a wall... or as a demon. :D
Bonzai 04-23-07, 01:33 PM	In most cases, another diety will assume the portfolio, and still answer the prayers of the faithfull (like the whole Elistrea Vhaerun thing). When you die, more than likley you will be claimed by that diety. In your case, I don't think you have a problem. Your god may be catatonic, but he is alive, and undoubtably has servators that take care of his plane, and make sure that what few faithful there are are claimed. Infact, he and Mystra had some type of understanding, it could very well be that Mystra has been answering prayers in his stead, and collecting his faithful for him.
Khaelieth 04-23-07, 01:40 PM	Imo you should end up in the wall. I don't believe in worshipping dead deities no matter what LEoF says. Dead is dead even for deities. Not necessarily. Bane, anyone? And Myrkul's still got a glimmer of power left and so does Auppenser. Auppenser isn't even dead! Though Bhaal is... *sniffles* The cuddly god of murder!
sckeener 04-24-07, 02:03 PM	Imo you should end up in the wall. I don't believe in worshipping dead deities no matter what LEoF says. Dead is dead even for deities. Actually I'd say Mulhorand and Unther would disagree. I mean their gods may be dead in the realms, but they still exist in the great wheel. Heck...the Old Empires still have the custom of worshiping all their gods even the ones that never came to the Realms.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 04-25-07, 12:49 PM	I dunno.. worshiping a dead god is like owning a BETA-MAX player, riding a banana seat bike, and listening to disco, all rolled into one.
BrennonGoldeye 04-25-07, 01:05 PM	Imo you should end up in the wall. I don't believe in worshipping dead deities no matter what LEoF says. Dead is dead even for deities. Derren, I have a package for your from Bane. COD no less. ;) I dunno.. worshiping a dead god is like owning a BETA-MAX player, riding a banana seat bike, and listening to disco, all rolled into one. Have you been in my rumpus-room Xavier?:dancin:
jamesnero 04-25-07, 07:09 PM	Have you been in my rumpus-room Xavier? you scare me... alot
Akris 04-29-07, 09:54 PM	I never understood the way how the "value" of your soul's virtue is rated by the criteria of being "false" or "faithless". Depending on where you were born, where you had to spend your life and how you were forced to do it just by circumstances being "false" or "faithless" could be the best thing one could say about you. You dont need much imagination, let give me an example. May be you are a Tiefling born somewhere in the Abyss, a Drow who lived his/her entire life in the underdark, a thayan slave and so forth, you possibly never had the convenience to encounter a religion worth following. How could Kelemvor punish you for your unwillingness to follow an unethical beleivesystem?! In these cases having no faith would prove your virtue, and possibly it would prove it even more than the faith of a person into a god with a virtous moral-code who never had to encounter lose, misery, tyranny or cruelty. If you have nothing more to hold on than your intuition that a given course of action is unethical and you still manage to conduct a life of virtue even the most altruistic of the gods would have to bow before you, since living such a life needs a thousand times more faith, when nothing is there to promise you reward, protection or compassion. When you have to illuminate your own way yourself with your own beleives about right and wrong and nobody is there to grant you salvation at the very end, who would have the right to judge your faith?
Bonzai 04-29-07, 11:23 PM	Your looking at it from the wrong perspective. This is the gods system, and for them, the biggest crime of all is having no faith at all. Why? Because gods are dependant on the faith of their worshipers. Without them, they would atophy and die. So they have a system in place encouraging faith. Why should they reward anyone for not worshiping them. I agree, it's a messed up system from a mortal stand point, but it serves the gods interests well.
Gray Richardson 04-30-07, 04:06 AM	I'm playing an human form Jhaamdath trapped on Quintessence ( protected form the effects of time) and he workships Auppenser who is now kind of dead ( a sleep of sorts). So if he dies where does his soul go?Auppenser's divine realm is called "The Tranquil Grounds" and is located in the plane of Dweomerheart. Since he is only asleep, there are still petitioners and servitors in his realm watching over things. Although, certainly the realm is more "tranquil" these days than it was back in its heyday. Auppenser still has agents that travel from his realm to the Fugue Plane to pick up newly deceased petitioners of his faith. The only thing is that this happens so infrequently these days that it takes awhile for an agent to show up to collect the soul; they only swing by sporadically to check. A faithful of Auppenser might have to wait for as much as a tenday (perhaps longer) to be collected from the Fugue. Once the soul arrives in the Tranquil Grounds, it will be welcomed into the community, introduced to its afterlife, and receive any necessary training as to its new role and duties.
Akris 04-30-07, 06:45 AM	Your looking at it from the wrong perspective. This is the gods system, and for them, the biggest crime of all is having no faith at all. Why? Because gods are dependant on the faith of their worshipers. Without them, they would atophy and die. So they have a system in place encouraging faith. Why should they reward anyone for not worshiping them. I agree, it's a messed up system from a mortal stand point, but it serves the gods interests well. These "Faithless" I was refering to do have faith in a certain portfolio and Im convinced if a petitioner who fullfills this definition arrives on the fugue plane the gods argue who has the right to collect that soul. I guess because of that it would work like a drafting system. These souls are not simple followers of a religion they are a religion and therefore elite-petitioners. For instance Buddha would fit into this discription, well in his case I figure arriving on the fugue would result in his ascention to godhood, taking himself a place among the gods and not the worshipers. The only one who would approach him on the fugue plane wouldnt be an agent of a god, it would be Ao, to assign all appropriate powers, explain the duties of the new god of compassion and his place in the cosmology to him.
Stigger 04-30-07, 07:37 AM	Interesting thought... but not quite the way divine ascension works as far as D&D is concerned in the whole Buddha case. As to the rest, I'd say that you were worshipping a deity, just not one you necessarily knew by name. You have faith in the portfolio, and by extension, the deity. Mind you, I suspect that if you later found out about the various deities and still refused to acknowledge them despite that knowledge, there'd be a fairly good case for being named false or faithless.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-30-07, 10:46 AM	Even if a dead god's deific domain has atrophied and been consumed back into the larger plane it was a part of (such as the boundaries of Maanzicorian's domain blurring and becoming more and more indistinguishable with Gehenna at large, etc), I can still see worshippers being drawn there, or perhaps more poetically being drawn to the rocky godisle drifting in the Astral. I can easily see a dead god's petrified corpse being populated by throngs of clustered, mournful or eternally hopeful petitioners, hinging eternity on their deific patron one day waking from their death-like slumber. Chances aren't good of that ever happening, but it can, and I think it would make their presence there all the more powerful and poignant.
Akris 04-30-07, 11:32 AM	Interesting thought... but not quite the way divine ascension works as far as D&D is concerned in the whole Buddha case. As to the rest, I'd say that you were worshipping a deity, just not one you necessarily knew by name. You have faith in the portfolio, and by extension, the deity. Mind you, I suspect that if you later found out about the various deities and still refused to acknowledge them despite that knowledge, there'd be a fairly good case for being named false or faithless. I never questioned the fact that such an individual would be rated as being a "false" or a "faithless". I only said it doesnt matter. I can give another example, let us assume Zaratustra, Salomon, Mohamed and Jesus had lived in such a cosmus in which many gods exist, we cant even claim that isnt the case taking our cosmos, since we dont know, and they had to learn this directly after their death what should they do? In many ways they stud up for the most good and virtues divine entities with their teachings, but they just refer to the one entity above all the others, it doesnt matter how they adress it, "the holy fire" or simply "god", they all refer to the one entity which personifies the entire universe. And in the FR that just is Ao. Hey well, Ao doesnt collect souls from the fugue plane, but nonetheless none of this persons can acknowledge all the other gods. "You shall have no other gods besides me." Isnt that exactly how its written in both the "Koran" and the "Holy Bible"? To even accept one of these gods would betray their beleivesystems, but its that very beleive that made them agents of the divine and morality for their whole lifetime. How does Kelemvor judge them as invirtous betrayers without having that judgement look like a punishment for worshipping Ao? In the case of Buddha its just another thing, as far as I see it, it is not even sure that he adresses a portfolio that is claimed by any existing god in the FR. Well its much more than that, but name me the god who holds, explicitly mentioned in the sourcebooks, the portfolio of compassion. None does! He is not false and he is not faithless and the other persons I named are not false or faithless either, they are beleivers and they will stay to their beleives even if it means that Kelemvor will punish them. Could anyone be more a beleiver than they are?
Stigger 04-30-07, 04:53 PM	Where are you getting the whole "you shall have no other gods besides me." be in regards to Ao? He has absolutely no interest whatsoever in mortal worshippers, doesn't answer prayers, and basically acts as the deity to the deities mortals worship... if you're extending the whole "Bible" interpretation of overdeities into the Realms, that just doesn't work. And just because its written that way in a book, that doesn't mean that's the way it actually is. I'm not going to even broach the subject of the Bible's literal truth, as its probably a no-no, beyond simply stating that it was essentially an oral tradition that made it into written form a few centuries after the fact, and those bits that made it in were cherry-picked over by a church council from the most popular gospels and sermons, to form what is supposed to be the word of God. Basically, if there's no deity behind them, they're faithless or false... in the structure of the D&D cosmology believing in something that demonstrably is not there makes you a lunatic, not a martyr. The gods are tangible, demonstrable beings who look after and care for their worshippers, and I'm sorry, but if a bunch of missionaries from Earth showed up, they'd be mocked and ridiculed under the most forgiving of conditions, since they couldn't demonstrate any sign of divine favor the way even a novitiate cleric could. Sure they could probably collect some strange fringe cult who really believed, but that still doesn't change the fact that there is no divine entity waiting for them when they die, at least not one who'd bother with mortals. Certainly it sucks for the dead ones, but they were supposed to be worshipping the deities, not Ao, and they're going to have to pay the price for that. By and by, for a specific portfolio of compassion, you're right, no one holds it... but its a huge part of a lot of upper planar faiths, since it is kinda one of those tenets of being good in the first place. Most of the clergies of good-aligned, and not a few neutral-aligned clergies, display compassion... I'm pretty sure that its universal nature and implication in being good precludes any one deity holding it as a portfolio. But it comes down to this, belief in a philosophy isn't enough to escape the false or faithless epithet if there's no deity behind it, or in Ao's case, a deity behind it who actually cares about your worship. In the context of the Realms, and in general terms, belief in something that doesn't answer back via a priest isn't considered piety, its considered insanity. :)
Akris 05-01-07, 01:05 AM	Where are you getting the whole "you shall have no other gods besides me." be in regards to Ao? He has absolutely no interest whatsoever in mortal worshippers, doesn't answer prayers, and basically acts as the deity to the deities mortals worship... if you're extending the whole "Bible" interpretation of overdeities into the Realms, that just doesn't work. And just because its written that way in a book, that doesn't mean that's the way it actually is. I'm not going to even broach the subject of the Bible's literal truth, as its probably a no-no, beyond simply stating that it was essentially an oral tradition that made it into written form a few centuries after the fact, and those bits that made it in were cherry-picked over by a church council from the most popular gospels and sermons, to form what is supposed to be the word of God. Basically, if there's no deity behind them, they're faithless or false... in the structure of the D&D cosmology believing in something that demonstrably is not there makes you a lunatic, not a martyr. The gods are tangible, demonstrable beings who look after and care for their worshippers, and I'm sorry, but if a bunch of missionaries from Earth showed up, they'd be mocked and ridiculed under the most forgiving of conditions, since they couldn't demonstrate any sign of divine favor the way even a novitiate cleric could. Sure they could probably collect some strange fringe cult who really believed, but that still doesn't change the fact that there is no divine entity waiting for them when they die, at least not one who'd bother with mortals. Certainly it sucks for the dead ones, but they were supposed to be worshipping the deities, not Ao, and they're going to have to pay the price for that. By and by, for a specific portfolio of compassion, you're right, no one holds it... but its a huge part of a lot of upper planar faiths, since it is kinda one of those tenets of being good in the first place. Most of the clergies of good-aligned, and not a few neutral-aligned clergies, display compassion... I'm pretty sure that its universal nature and implication in being good precludes any one deity holding it as a portfolio. But it comes down to this, belief in a philosophy isn't enough to escape the false or faithless epithet if there's no deity behind it, or in Ao's case, a deity behind it who actually cares about your worship. In the context of the Realms, and in general terms, belief in something that doesn't answer back via a priest isn't considered piety, its considered insanity. :) Sorry no offense, but you didnt get the whole point. I wasnt talking about the will of the gods and I never said that the "Holy Bible" was written or conceived by a divine entity. Its all about what the worshipers want. As you said, the gods depend on being worshiped. In a way they need the worshipers more than the worshipers need them. Such a religious moral codex does fine work without a god behind it, but the gods do not work if they have none to articulate their will among the mortals. If you are a particular deity and you know that you need a fellowship to sustain eternity and you can choose between worshipers who do refer you, but do it only to protect their own fate, but would turn away from you if you fall from grace, are defeated or simply have another god taking your place or worshipers who rather refer to the values you personify than to you in person, but would continue to stay to their beleives no matter whatever the costs might be, which of these two groups would be the faithless or false from your point of view? And since you, as a god, would be obligated to "manage" your domains, from which of these two groups would you benefit more? If you want to stay in office for eternity and you encounter mortals who do not worship any god, but do serve some of the causes you are associated with, or at least oppose the causes of your enemies and you would be able to determine their fate, what would you rather do? Destroy them or make them your allies as best as you can? Well I guess eternity is a bloody long time and especially as a god you do need all the help you can get. Not even the gods can force loyalty and a "death penalty" to one's soul who does not live up to your expactions cant win you any true solidarity from mortals in general at all and it anyways doesnt work if the subject who receives the punishment has come himself to the beleive that his soul is immortal and because of that undestructible, even though it might be a fatal error to beleive that. While he does not acknowledge Kelemvor's divine status anyways, why should he take his judgment serious?! If you dont beleive the blackhaired guy standing in front of you is a god at all or worse you suspect him of being Lucifer trying to tempt you, to make you abondon the right path why should you beleive anything he is saying? Why should you beleive him that your soul will be destroyed? If you insist that his claim of being a god is wrong its only consequent to not beleive him anything else as well. Well may be souls realy cease to exist after a while in the wall that goes around Kelemvor's city and is built out of them, but if the punished dont beleive it until it happend the blackmail doesnt work and the whole thing contributes more to the gods demise than their well being, since these souls cant worship anyone or anthing anymore, they are gone. I guess any god would have to think about that issue several times whenever he witnesses a faithful unbeleiver or an unbeleiving faithful among the newly arrivals on the fugue plane. The FR-Cosmology might be as it is described in the sourcebooks and as you insist how it is, but the people living in that world dont know that Mr. Greenwood has determined how their cosmos works. They dont know it, they have to figure out themself how it realy is and after they have come to a certain point of view they will stick to it no matter how wrong it might be. Well everyone could say that the gods in the FR take a very active role in the affairs of the mortals, but that doesnt matter. How is a mortal supposed to separate the truly divine from simple deception? The only thing he could utilize for that purpose would be philosophy, which would doubtlessly take the shape of an analysis of behaviour on an ethical level. But again these ethics have mortal sources again. And these mortal perspectives would have to be taken into consideration by the gods or else they would harm their interrests in an irrepearable way. Its the same in our world, we dont know if our picture of the cosmos is correct, but we dont have anything else to cling on.
Stigger 05-01-07, 01:33 AM	Needing worshippers is only one part of the equation, not all of it. We don't really know the whole equation unfortunately however. It seems a somewhat cynically mercenary view on the deities that I don't share. To be honest, I can't quite figure out how to respond to this without sounding like I'm trying to insult or offend, since I suspect I have a fundamentally conflicting point of view, so, all I will say is that your point of view seems a much more conservative point of view than I would choose to espouse, but you are certainly entitled to your opinions, as are we all. :)
Akris 05-01-07, 10:46 AM	Needing worshippers is only one part of the equation, not all of it. We don't really know the whole equation unfortunately however. It seems a somewhat cynically mercenary view on the deities that I don't share. To be honest, I can't quite figure out how to respond to this without sounding like I'm trying to insult or offend, since I suspect I have a fundamentally conflicting point of view, so, all I will say is that your point of view seems a much more conservative point of view than I would choose to espouse, but you are certainly entitled to your opinions, as are we all. :) Well, I would have expacted many different responses, but I didnt expact to be rated conservative for saying:"The gods have no real power." And:"Mortals dont need to have a god at all." Overall, its funny to see it as a cynical approach to the gods assuming that they would ally with like minded beings to further their goals and evaluate this as "mercenarism", but at the same time its not seen as a mercenary mindset to only grant those mortals an afterlife who join a god and not her/his causes. That looks much more like a mercenary view to pay your fellows with their survival and it somewhat is fascism, to let the mortals only choose between convormation or elimination, dont you think as well? It is as if the gods would say:"If you are not with us, you are against us." The dilemma of the FR-Cosmology is that its conceived as forced polytheism and thats not realy a difference to our forced monotheism. It creates the same conflict for mortals, if they are told:"Worship only us", or,"Worship only me", and just are unable to convorm to that dictum without violating their own beleivesystems. Well may be I made the impression, but Im not very religious at all. May be I caused that by relling on some common religions on earth, but it was only meant to show how large tensions can get when intolerance is preached. Its bad enough that the religions which have the most fellows on earth are monotheistic and they all claim to be the only true religion. We can see what we got from that and Its even worse if you have the gods themselfs pursue this attitude.
Stigger 05-01-07, 06:43 PM	Ummm... the Faerunian pantheon, with the exception of Cyric and possibly Bane aren't telling you to only worship them and no others. Tolerance is the rule of the day with most of them, as evidenced by the passages on page 232 of the FRCS, particularly in Torm's reaction to Tenwealth when he tried to proclaim Torm the one, true god, which led to the whole church doing penance for that transgression for a time. None of them, except a few among the more evil deities, are forcing anyone to worship them... When I said it was cynical, I meant that in terms of your apparent dim view of the Deities and the actual motives, which seem to me to be rather mercenary, going where the money is (so to speak) rather than sticking to their core values and portfolio. That's a point of view I just can't accept since it largely flies in the face of everything I've read about them. As to choosing between conformity and elimination, that sounds more to me like a 'universal constant' rather than something the deities came up with just to coerce the mortal rubes into worshipping them. Presumably that sort of law would be put in place by Ao to prevent deific squabbling over what happened to those souls when they died... I don't imagine he'd be too happy with divine conflicts disturbing the afterlife process on that level. What it comes down to is that it sounds like you have a lot of semi-negative issues with religion in general and are kinda projecting that onto Faerun's pantheon. Which of course you're perfectly welcome to do, but its not exactly the 'official' interpretation of them, if you see what I'm saying. :)
The WarOverlord 05-01-07, 09:19 PM	What happens to my soul when i die? where does it goes? does Kelemvor reclaim it? I'm playing an human form Jhaamdath trapped on Quintessence ( protected form the effects of time) and he workships Auppenser who is now kind of dead ( a sleep of sorts). So if he dies where does his soul go? And a related question, what happnes to the souls of the worshippers of gods that die ( Bhaal, Myrkul, worshippers)? In the Forgotten Realms? Mortals usually end up in the Fugue Plane and then Minions of their god or general faith comes to get them. Being in a slumber doesn't mean "GONE" so your PC should have it's god's minions coming for it. The False and Faithless, as judged by "Kevy" either have no god (not the case with a worshiper of a Dead god) or only give lip service to a god or belief (Does not apply to a worshiper of a dead god) so they would actually be picked up by the Minions of the dead god (if still available) or would be picked up by the Minions of the god that assumed the Portfolio of the dead god in the Case of Myrkul,Baahl,etc (Yep "Kevy" gets the Myrkul worshipers, and Cyric gets the Baahl worshipers) As far as cults like Ao's one....they probably, along with the other cult types might be picked up by the god minions that most closely matches the portfolio of the worship/faith (Azuth or Mystra for Ao's cause of all the wizards in the cult) As for the imported people that worship the variants of the Egyptian gods and interloper gods that dug out of the Forgotten Realms when offered the chance....the Fugue Plane is a "waiting room" because there is no central area that the Forgotten Realms godlings rule from and they all have their own home planes in the various outer planes, or in the Case of the Egyptian god lings, alternate "Realmspace" all together so the minions of the now departed from the Forgotten Realms Egyptian god avatars the minions would travel to pick up their dead just like any other goddling Minions would even across the "Realmspaces" (Remember, technically all the gods are interlopers on Overgod Ao's Realmspace....he decides the extent of their interfereing with mortals in his Realm's prime and power to worshiper ratio)
Akris 05-02-07, 10:58 AM	Ummm... the Faerunian pantheon, with the exception of Cyric and possibly Bane aren't telling you to only worship them and no others. Tolerance is the rule of the day with most of them, as evidenced by the passages on page 232 of the FRCS, particularly in Torm's reaction to Tenwealth when he tried to proclaim Torm the one, true god, which led to the whole church doing penance for that transgression for a time. None of them, except a few among the more evil deities, are forcing anyone to worship them... When I said it was cynical, I meant that in terms of your apparent dim view of the Deities and the actual motives, which seem to me to be rather mercenary, going where the money is (so to speak) rather than sticking to their core values and portfolio. That's a point of view I just can't accept since it largely flies in the face of everything I've read about them. As to choosing between conformity and elimination, that sounds more to me like a 'universal constant' rather than something the deities came up with just to coerce the mortal rubes into worshipping them. Presumably that sort of law would be put in place by Ao to prevent deific squabbling over what happened to those souls when they died... I don't imagine he'd be too happy with divine conflicts disturbing the afterlife process on that level. What it comes down to is that it sounds like you have a lot of semi-negative issues with religion in general and are kinda projecting that onto Faerun's pantheon. Which of course you're perfectly welcome to do, but its not exactly the 'official' interpretation of them, if you see what I'm saying. :) True, my view upon religion isnt that good at all, but should it be any better? And its not tolerant to destroy all those who dont do what you tell them to do. And it is mercenarism to pay your fellows with an afterlife and all who dont have anyone who pays them fade. If they would do as I say, they would grant even does an afterlife who arent directly fellows to a god, in that case none is paid for service to a god its a voluntary choice to do so and thats virtues and the opposite of that, let them choose between convormation and elimination, is fascism, just by definition. And no, destroying everthing that doesnt convorm isnt a universal constant. Nature doesnt work that way. There are no monolitic structures in the nature, for example a kind kind of termites maintains more than just one termite-hill. If wolfs flurish as a species there is no given limit to the amount of wolfpacks. There is no limit to the number of human cultures. And all species who have proven successful in terms of evolution and survival show all a tendency toward splitting up into many sub-species. breeding diversity and not conformity or kin is no exception to this. Do you even have a notion how many subtypes have been created through or evolution, the last 4 million years? Even today the "**** Sapiens" shows a large and growing larger diversity which is necessary to improve our chances of survival. Democracy lives and dies with pluralism, in other words it relies on the diversity of opinions. Bring it down to an end convorming nature to only support our needs, that would mean to eliminate any nonhuman lifeform who needs the same resources as we do. I guess you understand where that course of action would lead and what consequences it would create for the humankind as well. Our extinction. Diversity is key to survival, intolerant convormitty leads to doom. At last, but not least you may beleive the universe just exists to be the playground for any divine entity, but it isnt. If deities are at all needed to maintain, preserve or create a universe as a whole or parts of it, the universe does not support its creater not even if its supposed to do that, it simply cant, it is the creation and not the creator and cant fullfill the responsibility to activly preserve such divine entities or satisfy their needs. In return the Deities would be forced to fill the role of a servant to their creation if they want it to keep existing. The gods would be free to let it decay, but after its gone they arent gods of anything anymore. Well hey the gods are all-mighty in that concern, but they win nothing if they let the universe fade. If you are willing to accept that, you will be able to recognize that he mortals are not meant to be the servants of the gods, but the gods are meant to be the supporters of the mortals. For instance if you are the god of creativity, but you let the mortals die for any reason of what are you going to be a god of, after all mortals have died who had been able to be creative? Your existence becomes obsolete at the point were creativity is no more and not at the point were no mortal calls your name. Your name doesnt matter. Hey if I was Lathander I would not want to have followers who do not follow me because they have conciously and voluntarly chosen to do it, but have been forced to make a choice for a patron god to have an afterlife. I rather would have them not be my fellows, but have chosen to not be it voluntarly. Because of that I would have to make sure everyone who has lived a life in respect to life in general, peacefull coexistence and the support of freedom, in all its shapes. Just because they would conciously or unconciously, de facto support my fellows and because of that me, through their tolerance and support of diveristy. I would owe them an afterlife for that. I would have to ensure their well being no matter the cost, even if that means that I have to remove Kelemvor or any supporter of the "false and faithless"-policy. Well now its my turn to rate your opinion, since you were so kind to do that for me I realy do have to return that favor. I would say your view is obviously naive and you dont have a sufficantly developed backround of education to see parallels or give you a larger image to help you making up the whole context. You wouldnt dare to call the "convormation or elimination"-Scenario "a "universal constant" if you had lived in Germany 60 years ago. There you would have been able to see first hand that convormity leads to selfdestruction. And it doesnt matter what Mr. Greenwood would say about it. Take a look on the human rights resolution, you will discover that pretty much every human right intendedly or unintendedly supports diversity. "Freedom of religion", is just one of them. Put your head out of the sand and take a look around. That might help you more than the FRCS. P.S.: Dont bother coming up with critic to my english spelling and grammar, Im sure I speak better english than you speak my native language.
Stigger 05-02-07, 03:55 PM	Heh, I'm the last guy to criticize someones use of language. So long as I can puzzle it out, I'm okay with it. Yours is better than quite a few Americans I know, so... ;) My point with your view on religion is that the relgions on Faerun aren't even vaguely similar to those on Earth. Generally, they have to be tolerant and accepting given the diversity and alliances that are clearly shown. I just think you're projecting too much antipathy for earthen religions onto the Faerunian religions, and letting that antipathy color your view of them. Approaching them from a viewpoint of how religion is treated here isn't quite going to work, since the conditions present on Faerun just aren't anything like the conditions here. On earth, you're dealing with a concept of commoners being compelled to worship the same deity as their sovereign lord. Not even a vaguely common practice on Faerun. On earth, you're dealing with a church that had authority over the secular and held damnation over their heads to get their way. Not a common practice either, since most dogmas don't rely on damnation to encourage the following of their teachines. More carrot, less stick is a good way of looking at it. On earth, you're dealing with a church that compelled mandatory tithing from the public, which more often than not isn't the case on Faerun. I can only think of two places where that is the case, one being Lapaliiya and the other being Raven's Bluff, though I tend to consider Raven's Bluff as something of an abberation given the occassionally glaring earthlike bits that popped up during its living city days. I could go on, but I'm hoping you get the point by now... that the intolerant conformity just doesn't exist in the Realms at large, if it did, adventurers would hardly be allowed to own weapons, much less roam the land relatively unchecked. That diversity is already built in to the Realms, but I think you're having a hard time seeing it for some reason. As to nature not demanding conformity... I'd kinda disagree with you there. There are certain factors that serve to limit most species in one way or another, not all of which have to do with mankind. The amount of wolfpacks out there largely depends the amount of prey available in the best of conditions. If theres an abundance, there's a lot of wolves, if there's a shortage, the wolf populations decline, if there's a rapid shortage, wolves start dying off from starvation and disease. If you're speaking of diversity of sub-species, well, again, competition over resources is going to limit things in a lot of ways for everyone concerned. As to the rest of it... it isn't a question of master and servant, creator and created... the relationship of deity and worshipper has usually be portrayed, at least as far as I could tell, as a symbiotic relationship, both sides benefit, though in different ways. Given that sort of relationship, with tangible proof that the gods exist and can help their faithful, I seriously doubt it would occur to anyone who knew about them not to pick the one that most suited their beliefs and choose that one as their patron. You seem to be approaching the religious issue from an outside point of view. The Gods are facts, period, people have seen their avatars, and they aren't just these abstract philosophies that may or may not have some grain of truth to them... As to the universal constant arguement, I'm really not sure how having to choose a patron deity is such a hideous and apparently fascist thing... That False and Faithless policy existed long before Kelemvor by all appearances, probably before Jergal really, and likely came down from Ao. I seriously doubt the gods have any say whatsover as to whether it exists or not, its a rule they must live by, like it or not. Though I'll point out that there is nothing stopping Lathander, or anyone else, from claiming those souls so long as no one contests their right to them, if they did essentially worship him, even without knowing it, so long as he's aware of them. As to taking my head out of the FRCS... um... not sure what I did to merit that comment, but if you feel that way, you're welcome to it. We are talking about a game, as in fictional world sort of thing, right?