Incarnum in the Realms [Archive] - Wizards Community

Incarnum in the Realms [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bonzai
08-10-07, 06:14 PM Well, according to the new web article, Incarnum channels raw magic, but does so through the weave (I.E. the weave is used to shape melds). This sort of contradicts what Ed said before. When asked if Incarnum was weave based magic, Ed had said that it was like psionics, shadow weave magic, table magic, and pluma magic, in that it was indeed "magic" but independant of the weave.

It wouldn't be a big deal, except that I have already introduced it in my campaign as a form of magic independant of the weave. Oh well.
GothicDan
08-10-07, 06:37 PM Bonzai, are you searching for a specific way to solve your problem?
Bonzai
08-11-07, 01:51 PM Thank you, but the overall player impact will be minimal. It's just that I try to keep my campaigns in line with the lore, and this kind of shakes up the back ground plot a little. The players are enjoying themselves, and could probably care less, but it's just a little peeve of mine.

Just for explination, the general plot behind the current campaign is this; When Cyric first acended and became ruler of the fugue plane, he learned a lot about the nature of souls, and discovered the power of incarnum. He knew that it was a form of power that did not come from the weave, and after Mystra had cut him off he started to experiment with it as a hedge against her. (This is where it kind of threw me off. If Incarnum uses the weave, then it is no beter of an alternative than any other source of magic).

Now, several decades after the time of troubles, Cyric has created an order of Incarnum users, called the Ebon Dawn. These Incarnum draw upon the soul energy of Cyrics followers, which include the worst murderers and madmen in the realms. Needless to say, this has a severe impact on their mental state. It is only through their fanatical devotion to Cyric that keeps them from losing their sanity completley and becoming lost themselves. The Ebon Dawn's goal has been to forment chaos in the region, establish a foothold, and to slay any followers of the Harlot or Usuper that they find. Right now they have been causing havoc in the northern reaches of Impiltur. Stirring up the hobgoblin tribes from the giantspire mts, and creating armies of lost. The players have been thwarting them, and are just starting to mount a more direct offensive against them.

There are other incarnum users in the realms, most notably the dwarves. Moradin is called the Soul Forger for a reason. Every so often a dwarf is born with a stronger connection to the souls of his ancestors than the average Dwarf. These Dwarves are Soulborn, and use the power of their ancestors and Moradin's blessing to forge items of soul energy.

Thats what I've introduced to the players so far. So it won't be a huge impact. Still it tweaks the meta plot a little.
ORC_Paradox
08-12-07, 04:26 AM Yes, there is the "weave", but keep in mind there are 'spaces' in the weave. Incarnum could exist between the weave spaces.
MarkusTay63
08-12-07, 04:09 PM I thought that the Shadow Weave existed in the spaces? :confused:

Those must be some pretty big spaces... :mymy:

But then again, when you look at a net, most of it is spaces. :teach:
BadCatMan
08-12-07, 09:29 PM And knots, and threads, and waves rippling in the fabric...

If the Weave is anything like particle physics and quantum mechanics, which it surely must be the equivalent of in Toril's sphere, then it will be a lot more complicated than a simple fabric. There will be a lot of possibility for different kinds of magic to be extracted from it.
The_Shaman
08-13-07, 06:45 AM Perhaps Incarnum itself could be a medium to draw power from the Weave? It might be less efficient, but more stable and adaptable than the typical spell.
Bonzai
08-13-07, 01:01 PM Well, according to the article, the source of incarnum is raw magic. However, the meld shaper draws upon the weave to access it (like divine or arcane magic). They say that it is cruder, and less refined by the weave than normal magic, but it is still the weave that lets them shape it. They also went into a bunch of fluff that it may be related to heavy magic.

I've introduced it a bit differently in the realms. As Psionics is a form of magic that is drawn from the energy of the mind, Incarnum is a form of magic that draws upon the raw power of souls. While the weave has nothing to do with it, in many cases your divine patron does. The Deitys of the realms are fueled by the souls of their followers, and Incarnum users are too to a lesser extent. Because the dietys lay claim to the souls of their faithful, Incarnum users generally draw upon them with the dieties blessing.

For an example, take a LN Incarnate of Helm. Helm may allow him access to the soul energy of his followers, because while the Incarnate may only be a lay worshiper, he exemplifies the tenants of law and duty, and furthers the dieties cause.

I may be overcomplicating it, but for RP I think it's important to identify what souls you are drawing power from.
MaskedOne
08-14-07, 12:40 AM Could someone that can tolerate Candlekeep for extended periods refresh my memory. Did Ed directly state Arcanum as weave-free or merely point out that the Weave and Shadow Weave are not the only ways to access magic and therefore Arcanum could be Weave-free. I'd look but I'm not fond of hunting through Candlekeep with a PC and I'm using something slightly more limited.
lightcwu
08-26-07, 07:15 AM And knots, and threads, and waves rippling in the fabric...

If the Weave is anything like particle physics and quantum mechanics, which it surely must be the equivalent of in Toril's sphere, then it will be a lot more complicated than a simple fabric. There will be a lot of possibility for different kinds of magic to be extracted from it.

Are we using physics to address metaphysics? I'll be the first to agree that quantum physics is almost metaphysics but it's still fails to take that last step.
Derren S.
08-26-07, 08:22 AM So what makes Incarnum different from normal spells?
I thought the whole point from of the weave is to refine raw magic to make it easier to handle. That means that normal arcane spells are also only refined raw magic. Is Incarnum only a less refined form of magic? (Proto spell?).
Bonzai
08-27-07, 02:29 PM Evidently, according to the article. The more I think about it, the more I dislike it. It takes away most of the cool flavor of the system. Instead of channeling the power of souls, your simply tapping the weave like every one else (except shadow weave and psionics users).

Unfortunatley it's something I am going to golden rule away in my campaign.
The Ubbergeek
08-28-07, 05:28 PM Incarnum is an optional system book offered, and game settings notes offered in such books are suggestions (a good idea, though) only - Incarnum don't exist officialy in the Realms. So don't worry too much.
Ben_Breeck
08-30-07, 10:24 AM I don't care for the flavor changes either, but since this is essentially the final word from WOTC about meldshaping on Toril we're going to have to live with it if we want to bring a meldshaping character into a tournament game.

That said, when are they going to finish this and then cover Tome of Battle? It's been over three weeks!
GothicDan
08-30-07, 12:41 PM I don't think these articles are official canon, are they? I thought it was more an official optional ruling.

If this is the case, the true 'canon' for the Realms (and WotC) would be Ed's (brief) mentioning that Incarnum and other new forms of magic would be extremely limited, but rare methods of using magic without the Weave.
Bonzai
08-30-07, 03:15 PM I'm not sure how "Cannon" these articles are. They are designed to introduce various classes into the realms lore. Usually I love when they do this, and am happy that incarnum got some additional attention. However tying it to the weave just flies in the face of the flavor of the system. It's supposed to be channelling the magic of the soul, not simply tapping the weave like a caster.

On the plus side, if these articles are "Cannon" then there is hope that Incarnum may make it to 4th edition.
hoMonkulus
09-01-07, 10:18 PM screw canon. ;)

What does the Realms core book say? It's your setting!

I just read the article and didn't like the changes either. I had a character concept who was part of the Barbarians of the Ride. Since there's not much canon about them, I thought it would be cool if they had a few meldshapers who had a strong connection to the souls of their dead tribemates. (Kind of like your idea about the dwarves, Bonzai).

So naturally I was pleased to see the bits about the Ride barbarians in the article, but dismayed to see that Incarnum is raw magic, not souls. Oh well. In my campaign, it's souls.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bonzai 08-10-07, 06:14 PM	Well, according to the new web article, Incarnum channels raw magic, but does so through the weave (I.E. the weave is used to shape melds). This sort of contradicts what Ed said before. When asked if Incarnum was weave based magic, Ed had said that it was like psionics, shadow weave magic, table magic, and pluma magic, in that it was indeed "magic" but independant of the weave. It wouldn't be a big deal, except that I have already introduced it in my campaign as a form of magic independant of the weave. Oh well.
GothicDan 08-10-07, 06:37 PM	Bonzai, are you searching for a specific way to solve your problem?
Bonzai 08-11-07, 01:51 PM	Thank you, but the overall player impact will be minimal. It's just that I try to keep my campaigns in line with the lore, and this kind of shakes up the back ground plot a little. The players are enjoying themselves, and could probably care less, but it's just a little peeve of mine. Just for explination, the general plot behind the current campaign is this; When Cyric first acended and became ruler of the fugue plane, he learned a lot about the nature of souls, and discovered the power of incarnum. He knew that it was a form of power that did not come from the weave, and after Mystra had cut him off he started to experiment with it as a hedge against her. (This is where it kind of threw me off. If Incarnum uses the weave, then it is no beter of an alternative than any other source of magic). Now, several decades after the time of troubles, Cyric has created an order of Incarnum users, called the Ebon Dawn. These Incarnum draw upon the soul energy of Cyrics followers, which include the worst murderers and madmen in the realms. Needless to say, this has a severe impact on their mental state. It is only through their fanatical devotion to Cyric that keeps them from losing their sanity completley and becoming lost themselves. The Ebon Dawn's goal has been to forment chaos in the region, establish a foothold, and to slay any followers of the Harlot or Usuper that they find. Right now they have been causing havoc in the northern reaches of Impiltur. Stirring up the hobgoblin tribes from the giantspire mts, and creating armies of lost. The players have been thwarting them, and are just starting to mount a more direct offensive against them. There are other incarnum users in the realms, most notably the dwarves. Moradin is called the Soul Forger for a reason. Every so often a dwarf is born with a stronger connection to the souls of his ancestors than the average Dwarf. These Dwarves are Soulborn, and use the power of their ancestors and Moradin's blessing to forge items of soul energy. Thats what I've introduced to the players so far. So it won't be a huge impact. Still it tweaks the meta plot a little.
ORC_Paradox 08-12-07, 04:26 AM	Yes, there is the "weave", but keep in mind there are 'spaces' in the weave. Incarnum could exist between the weave spaces.
MarkusTay63 08-12-07, 04:09 PM	I thought that the Shadow Weave existed in the spaces? :confused: Those must be some pretty big spaces... :mymy: But then again, when you look at a net, most of it is spaces. :teach:
BadCatMan 08-12-07, 09:29 PM	And knots, and threads, and waves rippling in the fabric... If the Weave is anything like particle physics and quantum mechanics, which it surely must be the equivalent of in Toril's sphere, then it will be a lot more complicated than a simple fabric. There will be a lot of possibility for different kinds of magic to be extracted from it.
The_Shaman 08-13-07, 06:45 AM	Perhaps Incarnum itself could be a medium to draw power from the Weave? It might be less efficient, but more stable and adaptable than the typical spell.
Bonzai 08-13-07, 01:01 PM	Well, according to the article, the source of incarnum is raw magic. However, the meld shaper draws upon the weave to access it (like divine or arcane magic). They say that it is cruder, and less refined by the weave than normal magic, but it is still the weave that lets them shape it. They also went into a bunch of fluff that it may be related to heavy magic. I've introduced it a bit differently in the realms. As Psionics is a form of magic that is drawn from the energy of the mind, Incarnum is a form of magic that draws upon the raw power of souls. While the weave has nothing to do with it, in many cases your divine patron does. The Deitys of the realms are fueled by the souls of their followers, and Incarnum users are too to a lesser extent. Because the dietys lay claim to the souls of their faithful, Incarnum users generally draw upon them with the dieties blessing. For an example, take a LN Incarnate of Helm. Helm may allow him access to the soul energy of his followers, because while the Incarnate may only be a lay worshiper, he exemplifies the tenants of law and duty, and furthers the dieties cause. I may be overcomplicating it, but for RP I think it's important to identify what souls you are drawing power from.
MaskedOne 08-14-07, 12:40 AM	Could someone that can tolerate Candlekeep for extended periods refresh my memory. Did Ed directly state Arcanum as weave-free or merely point out that the Weave and Shadow Weave are not the only ways to access magic and therefore Arcanum could be Weave-free. I'd look but I'm not fond of hunting through Candlekeep with a PC and I'm using something slightly more limited.
lightcwu 08-26-07, 07:15 AM	And knots, and threads, and waves rippling in the fabric... If the Weave is anything like particle physics and quantum mechanics, which it surely must be the equivalent of in Toril's sphere, then it will be a lot more complicated than a simple fabric. There will be a lot of possibility for different kinds of magic to be extracted from it. Are we using physics to address metaphysics? I'll be the first to agree that quantum physics is almost metaphysics but it's still fails to take that last step.
Derren S. 08-26-07, 08:22 AM	So what makes Incarnum different from normal spells? I thought the whole point from of the weave is to refine raw magic to make it easier to handle. That means that normal arcane spells are also only refined raw magic. Is Incarnum only a less refined form of magic? (Proto spell?).
Bonzai 08-27-07, 02:29 PM	Evidently, according to the article. The more I think about it, the more I dislike it. It takes away most of the cool flavor of the system. Instead of channeling the power of souls, your simply tapping the weave like every one else (except shadow weave and psionics users). Unfortunatley it's something I am going to golden rule away in my campaign.
The Ubbergeek 08-28-07, 05:28 PM	Incarnum is an optional system book offered, and game settings notes offered in such books are suggestions (a good idea, though) only - Incarnum don't exist officialy in the Realms. So don't worry too much.
Ben_Breeck 08-30-07, 10:24 AM	I don't care for the flavor changes either, but since this is essentially the final word from WOTC about meldshaping on Toril we're going to have to live with it if we want to bring a meldshaping character into a tournament game. That said, when are they going to finish this and then cover Tome of Battle? It's been over three weeks!
GothicDan 08-30-07, 12:41 PM	I don't think these articles are official canon, are they? I thought it was more an official optional ruling. If this is the case, the true 'canon' for the Realms (and WotC) would be Ed's (brief) mentioning that Incarnum and other new forms of magic would be extremely limited, but rare methods of using magic without the Weave.
Bonzai 08-30-07, 03:15 PM	I'm not sure how "Cannon" these articles are. They are designed to introduce various classes into the realms lore. Usually I love when they do this, and am happy that incarnum got some additional attention. However tying it to the weave just flies in the face of the flavor of the system. It's supposed to be channelling the magic of the soul, not simply tapping the weave like a caster. On the plus side, if these articles are "Cannon" then there is hope that Incarnum may make it to 4th edition.
hoMonkulus 09-01-07, 10:18 PM	screw canon. ;) What does the Realms core book say? It's your setting! I just read the article and didn't like the changes either. I had a character concept who was part of the Barbarians of the Ride. Since there's not much canon about them, I thought it would be cool if they had a few meldshapers who had a strong connection to the souls of their dead tribemates. (Kind of like your idea about the dwarves, Bonzai). So naturally I was pleased to see the bits about the Ride barbarians in the article, but dismayed to see that Incarnum is raw magic, not souls. Oh well. In my campaign, it's souls.