Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meldread 03-24-07, 03:12 AM	I am slowly falling in love with this unseemly lady, Luthic the Cave Mother. I would like more information on her other than what can be found within Faiths and Pantheons. Would she be willing to spread her divine influence behind Gruumsh's back? Just how subservient is she? In many ways, she reminds me of an Orcish Lolth. Would she mind teaming up with, or at the very least tolerating the followers of Garagos who respect Orcs and those with Orcish heritage (and even believe that such a heritage is ideal)?
Gray Richardson 03-24-07, 04:43 AM	I don't see Luthic as being anything like Lolth. She is the orcish ideal of motherhood. I don't know how subservient she is to Gruumsh, but she IS the goddess of female servitude according to Monstrous Mythology. I see her as being very loyal to Gruumsh as both her husband and as chief of the clan and as the strongest male. I see her as fiercely loyal and protective of her whole family. She is the clan matriarch, and as such she is in partnership with Gruumsh, so she probably has a great deal of influence in that capacity, but it sounds like she may be somewhat deferential, to a degree, to the males of the orc pantheon. She is lawful evil, after all, and as such she respects the authority of her husband, the pecking order of her pantheon and culture and the social norms of orc society. In addition to female servitude, she is a goddess of fertility and motherhood and also of protection and of healing. Her priests attend to the wounded after a battle, they tend to females in childbirth and they teach healing and herbalism to orckind. She is a goddess of caverns and dark places, but to orcs this is the equivalent of hearth and home. Caves and darkness are seen as a welcoming and domestic concepts to orcs. In light of all this, I would not equate Luthic at all with the scheming, powerseeking treachery of Lolth. It may be that Luthic is clever and may have had to resort to schemes to protect her children and clan from the wrath of Gruumsh or other members of her pantheon, but I doubt she has any grand designs of her own beyond preserving, protecting and growing the orc race. In trying to wrap my brain around the orc mindset, I picture them as similar to the Comanche indian peoples of the 1800's as my model for orc behavior. Strong, proud and violent warriors. They were raiders and shockingly brutal in their dealings with European settlers and even other indian tribes, but were loyal and devoted to their own families. Now, that is how I see Luthic, but don't let that stop you if you see her differently. You could certainly go a lot of different ways with her. You could even give her a personality change if you like. If she perceived that Gruumsh was no longer furthering the interests of orcdom, if he had made too many mistakes and subjected orcs to too many defeats and embarrassments, then she might decide to back a different member of the pantheon as clan chieftain--Or she might even see fit to depose him and reign as orc queen herself. I can certainly imagine a lot of different ways you could develop Luthic as the big bad of a campaign, and if that interests you then you should definitely run with that. ;)
Old Sage 03-24-07, 04:55 AM	You'll want a copy of DRAGON #62 -- for the "Gods of the Orcs" article. Also, see Monster Mythology and On Hallowed Ground. There's a few tidbits on the priestesses and shamans of Luthic in The North boxed set. Luthic was also briefly referenced in both web enhancements (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/we) for Faiths & Pantheons [the 'Do's and Don'ts' WE offers lore on a monastic order devoted to Luthic]. The 'Harvest of Blood' (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20031119a) article in the Perilous Gateways series offers a brief tidbit also.
BadCatMan 03-24-07, 06:15 AM	I think Luthic has all the good ideas - then Gruumsh thinks he has them. :)
GothicDan 03-24-07, 06:22 AM	I think I agree mostly with Gray, here. Lolth's (Araushnee's) portfolios, alignment, and history were so vastly different than Luthic's that it would give an indication of how Luthic would NOT act. Araushnee was never subservient to Corellon, and he never expected her to be. She was a goddess of fate and potential and (in a way) ambition... Not family and hearth and keeping united. They're nearly polar opposites.
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man 03-24-07, 12:11 PM	If Luthic was to somehow see her own power wax within the Orcish pantheon, it would likely occur via deity proxies who just happen to be her offspring and are conquering while raising the banner of her name. I agree with the others. She would not want to ascend on her own. But she is so well loved by both her offspring and those who worship her, some of them may wish to ascend in power under her involuntary inspiration. Luthic may actually not approve of such powergrabbing shenanigans. Unless of course, the benefits of her proxies actions somehow have overarching benefits for the entire Orcish race and/or her respective portfolios.
The_Shaman 03-25-07, 09:02 AM	I actually consider having Luthic as a TN deity. Dwarves and elves have evil deities, banished or not, no reason orcs can't have a non-evil one.To me she's something of a "motherhood" figure through an orcish prism, and a patron of healing and mysteries/arcane arts. Unlike Lloth, she seems to be mostly loyal to Gruumsh, and her dogma does not seem limited to evil causes although she is quite clearly linked to the orc race.
Meldread 03-25-07, 04:39 PM	Thanks for the responses. When I read her entry in Faith's and Pantheons I walked away with a slightly different impression than represented here. While on the one hand she is certainly loyal to Gruumsh, it is only because he is the head of the pantheon. Her loyalty seemed to be mostly tied to the Orcish Race as a whole, and she seemed to - in some ways - resent her place in Orcish society. She is not allowed to have a weapon, so she grew long claws so she could fight. She uses her son Bahgtru, who honors her commands even above Gruumsh's own. F&P calls this a "small rebellion" that Gruumsh "tolerates only grudgingly". It seemed that Luthic was not a warrior like the other Orcish deities, but a manipulator - one that prefers to work in the shadows, that sees herself as the "brains" of the Pantheon. This is where my Lolth reference came from, but unlike Lolth who is entirely self-serving, I believe that Luthic truly wishes to see the power and success of her children. (Like most mothers.) Where she is evil is not in her compassion to her children, but her treatment of their enemies. In that, she is very much like the other Orcish deities, and while not allowed a weapon - a curse of some sort suffices, preferably one that is painful and causes ones health to begin to fail them. Is my interpretation of her personality incorrect? Would I be wrong in assuming that Luthic would not shed a single tear for Gruumsh if he were killed, and would strive to place her son Bahgtru at the head of the pantheon, only so she could have much more influence? The problem with this, of course, is that by Bahgtru's very nature he would never betray Gruumsh. He would not make such a move until his father was slain. Luthic, if my understanding of her is correct, cannot trust the other members of her pantheon, not to mention that Ilneval would take the opportunity to stake his claim as well - so it could be possible that Luthic may look outside her pantheon for aid.
Demetrios 03-25-07, 08:01 PM	Here's a write-up I did for Luthic in the Faiths & Avatars-style format for the old FR mailing list. It was done back in the 2e era, and things have changed a bit since that time, of course. Although I used whatever sources were available at the time, there'sa lot of speculation as well, so a lot of it really can't be considered "canon" Luthic (The Cave Mother, The Dark Mother, the Healing Mother) Lesser Power of Acheron, LE Portfolio: Fertility, female orcs, servitude, healing, the earth, caverns, dark places, vengeance Aliases: None Domain Name: Avalas/Nishrek Superior: Gruumsh Allies: The orc pantheon Foes: Almost all non-orcish deities, but especially the Seldarine, the Morndinsamman, the goblin and hobgoblin pantheons (although most of these feel less enmity towards her than towards the rest of her pantheon) Symbol: A cave entrance Wor. Align.: LN, N, LE Luthic (LOO-thick) is the orc goddess of fertility, as well as several other portfolios which in some way relate to her fertility aspect. She is the patroness of the child-bearing females of the orcish race, and as a result, due to the orc’s deeply-held sexist views, she is also the symbol of female servitude. Because of her nurturing nature as a fertility goddess, she also holds sway over healing and medicine. Moreover, like many other similar powers, she has ties to the earth as the fountainhead of fertility. She is also the patroness of caves and other dark places through her ties to the earth and her dominion over motherhood and the home (many of which for orcs are caves). Because of her grief and anger over the brutal deaths of so many orcish sons, she has also gathered vengeance and those who cry out for revenge (especially grieving mothers) into her portfolio. While she has some dominion over darkness (as mistress of caves and dark places) and disease (as a combination of her healing and vengeance aspects), these are more properly considered parts of the portfolios of Sargraas and Yurtrus. Luthic is the consort of Gruumsh and the mother of Bahgtru. While relations with her husband are sometimes strained, she has never ceased to dote on her son, despite his failings, and the feelings are reciprocated. In fact, should Gruumsh’s and Luthic’s commands conflict, the Strong Arm invariably follows the directives of his beloved mother despite the inevitable wrath of the One Eye. Relations with Gruumsh’s other lieutenant, Ilneval, are no where near as cordial; Luthic knows that the Clever Arm blames her for countering his attempts to persuade Gruumsh of Bahgtru’s incompetence. Needless to say, Luthic deeply dislikes her son’s rival, and should she discover Ilneval’s intrigues to undermine her (and Gruumsh’s) authority through his followers, things would deteriorate even further (if it would be possible to do so). Due to the overlap with the portfolios of Shargraas and Yurtrus (for which see above), there is some conflict between these two powers and the Dark Mother, although it is nowhere near as antagonistic as her relationship with Ilneval. Luckily, the distance between Acheron on one side and Gehenna and the Gray Waste on the other lessens what could otherwise be a nasty situation. One of the most noticeable difference between Luthic and the rest of her pantheon is her relationships with non-orcish deities. While her interactions with non-orc powers can hardly be described as cordial, she is not viewed with as much disgust and hate by them as are the other orcish gods. Since alone among the orcish pantheon, she is a non-aggressive power, she is thought by learned sages to have the best chance amongst them to abandon the selfish ethos of her kind and turn towards less brutal ways (of course, these sages always add, “but don’t hold your breath” onto the end of any such statement). Interestingly enough, since the Time of Troubles, certain good and neutral fertility goddesses have begun to very covertly communicate with the Dark Mother, attempting to influence her to abandon both her pantheon and her current ethos. These secret communications, believed to have begun by a chance (and amazingly non-fatal) encounter between Luthic and the Sharindlar (the dwarven power of fertility) during the Godswar. Since this time, this group of good and neutral goddesses whose portfolios deal in some way with fertility (Chauntea, Sune, Sharess, Sharindlar, Sheela Peryroyl, Shiallia, and, VERY secretly, Hanali Celanil) have continued to clandestinely communicate with their orcish counterpart, and amazingly, Luthic hasn’t rejected their viewpoints outright. This certainly isn’t to say that she is on the verge of wrenching herself away from her current position, but there now may be a remote possibility that in the distant future, the Healing Mother may shift towards a more benign alignment, maybe towards something like Sheela Peryroyl. For the time being, although she is listening with interest, Luthic is resisting anything resembling such movement; she fears the other members of her pantheon, suspects in a classically orcish paranoid manner that the goddesses may just be attempting to manipulate or destroy her, and too greatly enjoys being the patroness of vengeance to currently consider giving it up. Finally, this dominion over revenge has attracted the attention of Hoar, but he still remains coolly neutral towards her as has never forgotten the decimation of his pantheon by the orcish powers when he was still the Untheric power Assuran. Luthic’s Avatar (Cleric 30, Fighter 15, Mage 15) Luthic appears as a tall female orc with dark brown skin and dull black hair and eyes. She possesses four huge black claws on each hand, each wickedly sharp and pointed. She never uses a weapon (the claws tend to get in the way), a shield, or armor. Unlike most of the rest of her pantheon, she delights in casting spells, favoring those of the protection sphere and abjuration school. AC -3; MV 12; HP 179; THAC0 -2; # Att 7/2 Dmg 4d4+5 (claws +2, +2 specialization, +1 Str) MR 35%, SZ L (8 feet tall) Spells P: 13/12/12/12/11/10/8; W: 5/5/5/5/5/2/1 Str 17, Dex 20, Con 18, Int 20, Wis 23, Chr 21 Saves PPDM: 2, RSW: 6, PP: 6, BW: 4, Sp: 7 Special Att./Def.: In combat, Luthic attacks with her razor-sharp claws; these rake their victims for 4d4+5 points of damage and in all ways act as +2 weapons. If she wishes, she can forgo her attacks for one set of claws for a round in an attempt to trap a weapon; if she scores a successful hit against AC 0 while doing so, the target weapon is trapped and must save vs. crushing blow or be snapped in two. If the trapped weapon survives, she can disarm her opponent by winning a contested strength check. She also carries a stone of controlling earth elementals and usually activates it as soon as possible whenever conflict seems immanent. She can also cast darkness at will once per round. Luthic’s defenses are much more formidable than her combat skills, as befits a power dedicated to defending the home; notably, most of the defenses are much more powerful underground or in darkness. While in such a state, her AC drops to -5, she gains a +2 to hit and damage, she regenerates 2 hit points per round, and cannot be held, paralyzed, petrified, blinded, or deafened. No matter where she is, Luthic is permanently protected by a protection from normal missiles, and cannot be affected by magic missiles in a manner similar to a shield spell (although she doesn’t receive any of the other effects of that spell). Luthic only very rarely sends her avatar to Toril. On the rare occasions she does, it is usually in response to an invasion threatening a large number of orc homes, or in revenge for wholesale slaughter of females and young. She also sometimes appears after battles to heal the wounded, especially again females and young, and also during fertility rites to give her blessing and show her favor. Other Manifestations: Luthic sends a wide variety of omens to show her favor and disfavor. Most often, her favor is shown by the discovery of claw marks, usually on stone, but more rarely upon other items. The Healing Mother shows her greatest pleasure towards her most faithful by leaving said claw marks upon their bodies, an painful yet rapturous experience called the Raking by the lucky recipients. She also manifests by a magical darkness in an area or as a pitch-black aura around favored followers. The latter often temporarily gain an added benefit, usually the ability to regenerate 1 hit point per round or having all healing spells having the maximum possible benefit. Luthic is served by baatezu, black dragons, cave fishers, deep dragons, imps, maelephants, rust dragons, rust monsters, shadows, shadow dragons, and yugoloths. She shows her favor by rumbling at cave entrances and by the discovery of black opals, black pearls, black sapphires, jet, horn coral, obsidian, and onyx. She shows displeasure by lighting ordinarily dark areas, and by rock falls at cave entrances. If she is displeased by a whole community, the birth rate may drop precipitously, even to zero. The Church Clergy: Clerics, specialty priests, shamans Clergy Align.: LN, LE (possibly N soon) Turn Undead: Cl: Yes (in defense of the home or children only), SP: Yes (see cleric), Sha: No Cmnd Undead: Cl: No, SP: No, Sha: No All clerics, specialty priests, and shamans of Luthic receive religion (orc) as a bonus nonweapon proficiency. The clergy of Luthic are a highly visible proportion of orcish society, especially among the women, but even among the males, her followers’ legendary healing powers are highly appreciated. Her clergy make no pretensions towards ruling orc tribes or settlements or leading their armies. They do often accompany these armies off to war, publically for their useful healing powers, but often as well for other reasons related to the Dark Mother’s fertility aspect. Indeed, for orc males, it is the clergy’s dedication to fertility that is the most noticeable function of the priesthood. Although many orcs choose mates for long periods and sometimes even for life, an orc male may take as many consorts as he can support. As a result, the most eligible females are snatched up by the most powerful males to become parts of large harems; even many typical older males have two or more “wives”. The result of this is that there is a distinct disparity in single males and single females; luckily for such frustrated youngsters most temples of Luthic perform a secondary function as festhalls and brothels. (Though in the end the mortality rate for males is so high that eventually surviving orc males are able to find at least one eligible widow to settle down with). It is the orc females, however, who make up the core of Luthic’s faith. She symbolizes everything about them, from childbirth to nurturing the young to the traditional subservience of their gender to the males. As a result, while orc males are sharply divided by deity, the females are all but united behind Luthic (although Ilneval is attempting to change this). Specialty priests of Luthic are known as gaathar, which can be translated as “cave mothers”. By orcish tradition, all clergy of the Healing Mother are female; and while the majority of them are full-blooded orcs (55%), Luthic embraces all orcish offspring, so a rather high proportion of her clergy are half-orcs (30%) and orogs (15%). Specialty priests make up only a small proportion of the faithful (20%); more are shamans (50%) and clerics (30%). Relations between all the various branches are extremely harmonious for orcish society; most of Luthic’s followers tend to work together towards common goals. Temples dedicated to the Dark Mother are invariably in caverns. The followers of Luthic tend not to worry overly much about grandiose titles; many proudly are called simply “Mother”. Initiates are sometimes referred to as Daughter, and particularly old and revered clergy are often times known as Great Mother. Dogma: The females of the orc races were created for one main purpose: to bear and raise the next generation of orc warriors. Do not attempt to become the equal of the males, for females are weak and not suited for the rigors of rulership. Heal the wounded so that they may return to battle quickly. Defend the home and the children against marauders, and avenge the dead either through one’s own actions or by reminding the males of their duty to do so. Day to Day Activities: The clergy of Luthic lead quite busy lives, especially in comparison to other orcish faiths. The supervise “marriages”, assist at childbirths, help raise and teach the young, and run the orc equivalents of clinics and hospitals. They often go into the wilderness to gather special herbs and plants to assist in their healing and to ease birth pains. And, as the only outlet for female ambitions, they form a sort of social club where women can gather, socialize, and form bonds of friendship. Holy Days/Important Ceremonies: The most important date for the clergy of Luthic is the Return, a floating holiday not set by any calendar date, but by the return of the army at the end of the campaigning season. For the several days following this event, there are virtual street parties in orcish settlements, and many orcish couples use the occasion to undergo their race’s equivalent of a marriage ceremony, presided over by Luthic’s faithful of course. For those orcs wishing to remain unattatched, the festival is light on theology, but heavy in the pleasures of the flesh (which suits the Luthic just fine anyway). The Return is closed by a day-long ceremony at the local temple, ending in a mass fertility ritual that would make even the clergy of Sharess blush (before turning away in disgust). Needless to say, orc births rates are much higher for a short period several months following this festival. Major Centers of Worship: Deep in a cave in the Cloven Mountains above the eastern shore of the Deepwash, Great Mother Gorlush maintains the Grotto of the Dark Mother, a temple dedicated to Luthic built around a natural mineral spring reputed to increase fertility. Previously barren orc females for many miles around swear by its legendary properties, and as its reputation has grown, orcs from as far away as the Cloud Peaks and the Earthfast Mountains have made their way to the Grotto in order to drink and bathe in the blessed waters. Affiliated Orders: The church of Luthic does not sponsor any military orders, nor are their any adventuring groups dedicated to her. It is not the place of orc females to fight, so such things are for the followers of the male orc deities. Priestly Vestments: The clergy of Luthic on the whole eschew any special clothing for rituals, preferring to wear normal clothing. Adventuring Garb: Luthic’s faithful almost never leave their home villages, and therefore rarely wear anything than their normal, everyday clothing. On those occasions when an enemy attacks their settlement, or when accompanying an army as a healer, they sometimes don leather armor to protect themselves. They arm themselves with small, easy-to-use weapons, often ones adapted from everyday household items. Specialty priests (Gaathar) Requirements: Wisdom 12 Prime Req: Wisdom Alignment: LN, LE Weapons: Size S melee weapons, darts, throwing axes, throwing daggers, throwing knives Armor: Leather only Major Spheres: All, creation, elemental (earth), guardian, healing, necromantic, protection, sun (reversed), wards Minor Spheres: Animal, charm, combat, elemental (fire), plant, travelers Magic Items: Same as clerics Req. Prof: Healing Bonus Prof:, Herbalism, cooking *Gaathar must be orcs, half-orcs, or orogs *Gaathar must be female *Gaathar may not multi-class *Gaathar may lay on hands, similar to the paladin ability, for 1 hit point per level once a day *At 3rd level, gaathar can cast protection from good, 10' radius, once per day. At 10th level, this protection becomes permanent, similar to a paladin’s the protection from evil aura. *At 5th level, gaathar add 1 hit point to all healing spells cast *At 7th level, gaathar gain a +1 bonus to their AC while defending an orc home or children (she must be within or within sight of what is being defended) *At 10th level, gaathar regenerate 1 hit point per round for one turn while defending an orc home or children (she again must be within or within sight of what is being defended), or while recovering from damage sustained by such a defense. *At 13th level, gaathar can cast one healing spell for maximum healing once per day
Meldread 03-26-07, 12:22 AM	Demetrios- Thanks for the information. I found that via Google on the web. Can you tell me if the following information is cannon? One of the most noticeable difference between Luthic and the rest of her pantheon is her relationships with non-orcish deities. While her interactions with non-orc powers can hardly be described as cordial, she is not viewed with as much disgust and hate by them as are the other orcish gods. Since alone among the orcish pantheon, she is a non-aggressive power, she is thought by learned sages to have the best chance amongst them to abandon the selfish ethos of her kind and turn towards less brutal ways (of course, these sages always add, “but don’t hold your breath” onto the end of any such statement). Interestingly enough, since the Time of Troubles, certain good and neutral fertility goddesses have begun to very covertly communicate with the Dark Mother, attempting to influence her to abandon both her pantheon and her current ethos. These secret communications, believed to have begun by a chance (and amazingly non-fatal) encounter between Luthic and the Sharindlar (the Dwarven power of fertility) during the Godswar. Since this time, this group of good and neutral goddesses whose portfolios deal in some way with fertility (Chauntea, Sune, Sharess, Sharindlar, Sheela Peryroyl, Shiallia, and, VERY secretly, Hanali Celanil) have continued to clandestinely communicate with their orcish counterpart, and amazingly, Luthic hasn’t rejected their viewpoints outright. This certainly isn’t to say that she is on the verge of wrenching herself away from her current position, but there now may be a remote possibility that in the distant future, the Healing Mother may shift towards a more benign alignment, maybe towards something like Sheela Peryroyl. For the time being, although she is listening with interest, Luthic is resisting anything resembling such movement; she fears the other members of her pantheon, suspects in a classically orcish paranoid manner that the goddesses may just be attempting to manipulate or destroy her, and too greatly enjoys being the patroness of vengeance to currently consider giving it up. As it now stands, she is Neutral Evil which may mean that her loyalties have shifted and that she is no longer as subservient as she once was - this could explain the alignment shift. She has also lost the portfolios of: dark places, the earth and vengeance. However, she has gained the portfolios of: Home and Wisdom. Are we seeing some type of gradual shift? Also, take a look at the old vs the new dogma - a definite shift. Old Dogma: The females of the orc races were created for one main purpose: to bear and raise the next generation of orc warriors. Do not attempt to become the equal of the males, for females are weak and not suited for the rigors of rulership. Heal the wounded so that they may return to battle quickly. Defend the home and the children against marauders, and avenge the dead either through one's own actions or by reminding the males of their duty to do so. New Dogma: Life is sheltered within the earth from which it springs. Honor the wisdom of the Cave Mother, whose strength is the backbone of the horde and the root of valor in battle. Understand your position within the tribe and do your part to strengthen the tribe against all rivals. The cave is the sheltering embrace of the Mother of Bahgtru and the bastion of orc strength. Endure all hardships. To me, this line is particularly telling when compared to the old: "Honor the wisdom of the Cave Mother, whose strength is the backbone of the horde and the root of valor in battle." As well is this line: "The cave is the sheltering embrace of the Mother of Bahgtru and the bastion of orc strength." She is equating herself with being the true source of strength in Orcish society! It seems to be a direct attack against all of the Orc male deities, aside from Bahgtru - who gets a mention in the dogma (and who is undoubtedly the strongest of all the orc deities) - but particularly aimed at Gruumsh.
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man 03-26-07, 09:31 PM	In the Races of Faerun sourcebook, there are 4 profiled sub-species of Orcs - Gray Orc, Mountain Orc, Orog, & Half-Orc. What is the up-to-date respective allegiances to Luthic for each of these sub-races? I'm curious to see how the worshipping demographic of these sub-races factor into a possible shift-in-power for the Cave Mother.
Francho1 03-26-07, 10:53 PM	I was looking up who of the gods of faerum had the healing domain, thinking that only gods with this domain can grant powers to the HEALER core class. Finding out that Luthic was on of the few gods in all Faith and pantheons who has acsess to healing, what would you guys think of orcish healers. Only changing the unicorn companion.