Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nicholas the Paladin 02-17-07, 01:28 PM	Hi All, I'm considering playing a (neutral or good) Beguiler that taps on the Shadow Weave (SW). Would only other arcana casters be able to find out that you tap on the SW? And if so, would their response automatically be hostile? (or just the one with good alignement). In other words, is casting from the SW automatically evil? The PGtF states that in order to be able to cast from the SW, you either must have WIS 15 ór have Shar as a patron Diety. I choose for the former; I spend a 15 on WIS. Thanks ! (p.s. my backgroundstory is that I was a roguish gnome in the service of the (interplanar) caravan of my father. We got stuck on the Shadowplane, were by accident I get infused with the Shadow Weave and become a spontaneous caster (a Beguiler))
HVulpes 02-17-07, 01:44 PM	Hi All, I'm considering playing a (neutral or good) Beguiler that taps on the Shadow Weave (SW). Would only other arcana casters be able to find out that you tap on the SW? And if so, would their response automatically be hostile? (or just the one with good alignement). In other words, is casting from the SW automatically evil? The PGtF states that in order to be able to cast from the SW, you either must have WIS 15 ór have Shar as a patron Diety. I choose for the former; I spend a 15 on WIS. Thanks ! (p.s. my backgroundstory is that I was a roguish gnome in the service of the (interplanar) caravan of my father. We got stuck on the Shadowplane, were by accident I get infused with the Shadow Weave and become a spontaneous caster (a Beguiler)) From the lit, I don't think there is anything that is inheritly evil using the S-weave. Being a Shadow Adapt, yes (Or at least non-good), but not just a plane user. The trouble comes from the fact that Shar controls the Shadow Weave. Potential she can stop you from using it and keeping you from use any magic as you have forsaken the Weave by choosing the Shadow one. But she tends to choose to let anyone use the the S-weave, either corrupting the user or killing them. Then there is the fact that people are starting to know that S-weave exist and is linked to Shar, and any Shadow Weave user would be seen as one of her minions. Perhaps causing a penalty of -2 to all charisma checks to anyone who is not linked to Shar or even - 4 for Mystra and Selune worshippers. Just my thoughts.
Nicholas the Paladin 02-17-07, 01:58 PM	Thanks! From the lit, I don't think there is anything that is inheritly evil using the S-weave. Being a Shadow Adapt, yes (Or at least non-good), but not just a plane user. That's good to hear. The potential problem comes from te fact that Shar has created the SW. Then there is the fact that people are starting to know that S-weave exist and is linked to Shar, and any Shadow Weave user would be seen as one of her minions. Perhaps causing a penalty of -2 to all charisma checks to anyone who is not linked to Shar or even - 4 for Mystra and Selune worshippers.. How would people know this? Just a Spellcraft check by a arcane caster? Or would Weave casters 'feel' that there's something amiss? It's not that obvious, right?
The_Shaman 02-17-07, 06:07 PM	Well, there's a feat in CoV that lets you detect a shadow weave user, but otherwise I'd say it's a hefty spellcraft check. That and if you can cast in dead magic zones.
MerrikCale 02-17-07, 09:43 PM	From the lit, I don't think there is anything that is inheritly evil using the S-weave. Being a Shadow Adapt, yes (Or at least non-good), but not just a plane user. Quite the contrary. The introduction of the Shadow Weave was in an old FR novel with a character named Aeron (or something like that) who is most definately not evil. In fact, the FRCS I believe references him as does Champions of Ruin. He is I think CN, although he does not come across that way in the novel, but is certainly not a Sharran
Green Elven Vampire 02-19-07, 05:00 AM	MerrickCale... His name is Aeron Morieth and he's a Gold, Half elf Wizard 13/Shadow Adept 4. And to the person who started this thread..... You don't need to worship Shar or be evil in order to find, weild and master the Shadow Weave. Just my two Zhents....
MerrikCale 02-19-07, 11:36 AM	MerrickCale... His name is Aeron Morieth and he's a Gold, Half elf Wizard 13/Shadow Adept 4. And to the person who started this thread..... You don't need to worship Shar or be evil in order to find, weild and master the Shadow Weave. Just my two Zhents.... Thanks. I looked it up an I noticed I made a few mistakes. He's listed as Neutral (although he reads more NG or even CG). And he's referenced in Lords of Darkness not Champions of Ruin.
Zanan 02-19-07, 11:48 AM	While Shar has dominance over the Shadow Weave, I doubt that it is common or even scholarly knowledge. IMHO, finding out about the Shadow Weave and using it is much like finding out about and trying to master wild magic. Shar itself will probably accept anyone wielding the SW, as it means less users to the Weave of Selûne's ally Mystra. The SW as such is most likely "neutral", as is the Weave.
Mulan Rogue 02-19-07, 12:20 PM	Using the shadow weave isn't evil but it/Shar sure is going to try and corrupt you the longer you use it. A shadow weave user could remain 'pure' however -as long as they have the strength to remain unaffected.
Nicholas the Paladin 02-20-07, 02:28 AM	While Shar has dominance over the Shadow Weave, I doubt that it is common or even scholarly knowledge. IMHO, finding out about the Shadow Weave and using it is much like finding out about and trying to master wild magic. . That is what I'm wondering about. The average arcane caster will know of the SW, but I imagine that they can't detect a SW-user (or at least not right away). Besides that, I indeed doubt that the average citizin on the street will know the difference between Weave and SW. To them it's all magic. I also doubt that they know that there are 2 godesses who each maintain 'a' weave.
Nicholas the Paladin 02-20-07, 03:42 AM	Using the shadow weave isn't evil but it/Shar sure is going to try and corrupt you the longer you use it. A shadow weave user could remain 'pure' however -as long as they have the strength to remain unaffected. Why would she want to do that? No good or neutral caster in his right mind would want to use the SW. By trying to corrup SW casters she woudl undo her onw plan: lure arcanists away from the Weave and therefore weakening Mystra. Your idea might sound logical (since it is all 'evil' and stuff), but in the end I think that Shar is wiser than that. She might do it really carefull and sneacky, but after the first curruptions, the word gets out.
Mirashira 02-20-07, 04:17 AM	Why would she want to do that? No good or neutral caster in his right mind would want to use the SW. By trying to corrup SW casters she woudl undo her onw plan: lure arcanists away from the Weave and therefore weakening Mystra. Your idea might sound logical (since it is all 'evil' and stuff), but in the end I think that Shar is wiser than that. She might do it really carefull and sneacky, but after the first curruptions, the word gets out. why wouldn't they ? it's a unique way to cast magic - its way more difficult to resist - and counter - than mystra's wave...and it's not broken (no dead magic or wild magic areas) and you can do great good with the shadow wave even when it's not provided by a good goddess...(f.E. read the Return of the Archwizard triology) And why should Shar not want to corrupt spellcasters that choose the Shadow Wave ? If she's doing it right - and she has an enormous potential in corruption and seduction - a character will not recognize that he is doing evil/being seduced because his intentions are still good in his eyes... and it may be "good" to whipe out a whole tribe of neutral lizards just because they _could_ be a thread to the community that lives nearby -.- after all, every evil, even potential evil has to be eliminated :P
Diffan 02-20-07, 05:02 AM	Thanks. I looked it up an I noticed I made a few mistakes. He's listed as Neutral (although he reads more NG or even CG). And he's referenced in Lords of Darkness not Champions of Ruin. Which novel is he written in?
GothicDan 02-20-07, 06:55 AM	The Shadow Stone. It was originally supposed to be a birthrite novel, which explains why the whole SW thing fits into the Realms so awkwardly (in my not really humble opinion).
Stigger 02-20-07, 07:24 AM	That explains a lot... wonder why they couldn't have unleashed it on Eberron instead...
Kid SixXx 02-20-07, 08:09 AM	That explains a lot... wonder why they couldn't have unleashed it on Eberron instead... Indeed. We got psionics to work logically in our setting so we probably could've made the Shadow Weave work much better also. The fluff of the setting seems to indicate that Changelings are the de facto masters of shadow and illusion magic as well as transmutation magic, so they'd probably be the main users of an Eberron Shadow Weave.
Lord Karsus 02-20-07, 10:09 AM	-If we give you the Shadow Weave, what do we get in return? :P
Kid SixXx 02-20-07, 10:12 AM	-If we give you the Shadow Weave, what do we get in return? :P We don't have nearly two decades of development, so we don't have that much to offer in return. :D From what I've seen at the FR general board, I don't think you'd accept what we offered anway. ;)
Lord Karsus 02-20-07, 10:19 AM	We don't have nearly two decades of development, so we don't have that much to offer in return. :D From what I've seen at the FR general board, I don't think you'd accept what we offered anway. ;) -Well, like I said, it depends on what you send our way. If you send over the blueprints of a logical Psionics system, I don't think anyone would be too proud to accept it.
Karsus the Mad 02-20-07, 10:23 AM	And one of those fancy airships, just for me mind you....my Halruaan skyship is rather clanky...
Kid SixXx 02-20-07, 10:40 AM	-Well, like I said, it depends on what you send our way. If you send over the blueprints of a logical Psionics system, I don't think anyone would be too proud to accept it. Well, I think the key is the acceptance of the mechanics & vocal support by the setting's creator. Even then, psionics is only as acceptable as individual DM's like or dislike for the rules. Now that Secrets of Sarlona is out, we've pretty much got the framework to run campaigns strictly in Sarlona, where psionics is king rather than arcane magic. Almost reminds me of the Dark Sun campaign where EVERYONE WAS A PSION! Who'd have thought that a setting apparenly launched to force usage of optional psionics rules would turn out so interesting? I still have my articles on the exotic Gladiator weapons found on Athas. I so love the singing sticks. Anywho, I think a lot of people in the FR have sorta..... well... forgotten ;) ... that psionics used to be welcomed in the FR setting, and even Elminster was once portrayed as telepath with a respectable degree of skill in addition to being a wizard. And one of those fancy airships, just for me mind you....my Halruaan skyship is rather clanky... Hey! I am happy to see that the rumors of your hiatus were slightly exaggerated! Anyway, the gigantic elemental rings around our airships make them just as clunky as Halruaan skyships. Probably more dangerous since piloting an Eberron skyship is pretty much a conversation between yourself and an elemental. Heaven help you if the containment ring breaks in mid-voyage. ;)
Stigger 02-20-07, 03:12 PM	Yeah, but they look cool, so who cares about safety? :D
GothicDan 02-20-07, 04:33 PM	Anywho, I think a lot of people in the FR have sorta..... well... forgotten ... that psionics used to be welcomed in the FR setting, and even Elminster was once portrayed as telepath with a respectable degree of skill in addition to being a wizard. It depends on who you're asking, in previous editions. Ed always played up psionics as being exceedingly rare in the Realms, using practitioners of the Invisible Art as a WTF?! element to throw at his players. I don't like Elminster's psionic talent, regardless of which edition it was described in. I think having silverfire, spellfire, and way too much experience for his own good already makes him quite cunning and unpredictable enough. Then again, I've never been a fan of psionics. Not just because it's "new" (when I got into the game, psionics weren't new, anyway), but because I see it basically synonymous to magic. Which is another reason why I don't like the majority of the new 'systems' of magic (Shadow Magic, True Name, Pact, etc.); they're superfluous, when the core Wizard class in the Realms has always been able to do that sort of thing without 'new magic systems.' I feel the same about psionics.
Karsus the Mad 02-20-07, 05:28 PM	Hey! I am happy to see that the rumors of your hiatus were slightly exaggerated! Nah. I just don't have preconcieved notions for something I've never experienced:) Anyway, the gigantic elemental rings around our airships make them just as clunky as Halruaan skyships. Damn....can they at least move forwards and backwards on their own? Halruaan skyships can only move up and down, with forward movement relying on wind...one would think if they can get the bloody things to move up and down with enchanted turtle shells, they could attach some of those darn things to back and front. Probably more dangerous since piloting an Eberron skyship is pretty much a conversation between yourself and an elemental. Heaven help you if the containment ring breaks in mid-voyage. I dunno if I like that part...talking to my engine...well, I have on occasion yelled at my car engine...but I don't think that's the same:P
Green Elven Vampire 02-20-07, 05:41 PM	Let's not forget that Galaron Nihmedu, a Moon elf fighter/ sorcerer/ Tomb guardian/ shadow adept is also a CG to CN person and uses the shadow weave nearly as good as the Shadovar do. He follows Corellon Larethian and not Shar, so it just goes to show that a Moon elf and a Half elf of good alignment both weild the SW and follow goodly deities and have nothing to do with Shar at all. Corellon most likely don't like one of his elves to weild the SW, but he'll just have to suck it up and deal with it, as Galaeron saved the major elven city of Evereska with the SW and was offered a position among the High Mages of that city. Maybe not as a High Mage, but possibly as a peer among powerful arcane spellcasters.
Kid SixXx 02-20-07, 06:12 PM	Damn....can they at least move forwards and backwards on their own? Halruaan skyships can only move up and down, with forward movement relying on wind...one would think if they can get the bloody things to move up and down with enchanted turtle shells, they could attach some of those darn things to back and front. Eberron skyships are funny things. They are constructed from a type of magical wood found in abundance on an island populated by (you guessed it) elves, who control it's export with an iron fist. The containment rings are usually created by the gnomes who happen to be the best elemental binders in the setting. Anyone can pilot a skyship, but the dragonmarks of the half-elves of House Lyrandar give them the edge, so most skyship piloting is left to them. Skyships can go backwards, forwards, up and down pretty easily but they can't land: the wood that the ships are constructed of is very buoyant and made even moreso via magic used in the treating process before it is made into a skyship. Keith put a lot of thought into the concept of skyships to make it setting specific and logical, probably because skyships are such a cliche in fantasy especially in video games. I dunno if I like that part...talking to my engine...well, I have on occasion yelled at my car engine...but I don't think that's the same:P The whole "living engine" thing is a source of endless debate. Depending on who you ask, it's tantamount to slavery. We argue about that on our boards as often as you guys discuss hiccups in lore. Then again, I've never been a fan of psionics. Not just because it's "new" (when I got into the game, psionics weren't new, anyway), but because I see it basically synonymous to magic. Elminster has had psionic talent since the days when psionics was an extra set of abilities and not a set of classes. As far as being synonimous to magic, the old rules really went out of their way to really differentiate psionics from magic, which is probably why they weren't terribly popular. I'd wager that the whole "synonimous with magic" deal arguably makes them a bit more player friendly these days, and Eberron seems to be a bit more successful than Dark Sun when it comes to encouraging the use of psionics rules. I've been in two Dark Sun campaigns and I don't think we ever use psionics at all
GothicDan 02-20-07, 07:15 PM	Elminster has had psionic talent since the days when psionics was an extra set of abilities and not a set of classes. Alright. That still doesn't mean I approve of it. ;) Remember, initially Elminster wasn't even supposed to be a "Chosen"; he was just this enigmatic old cunning sage of indeterminate power but great experience. I wouldn't be at all surprised if TSR had coerced Ed into giving him psionic talent, too. As far as being synonimous to magic, the old rules really went out of their way to really differentiate psionics from magic, which is probably why they weren't terribly popular. I'd wager that the whole "synonimous with magic" deal arguably makes them a bit more player friendly these days, and Eberron seems to be a bit more successful than Dark Sun when it comes to encouraging the use of psionics rules. I've been in two Dark Sun campaigns and I don't think we ever use psionics at all The fact that they ARE so similar to magic means, to me, that there's really no point in having them (other than making a profit). Are there any Psionic Wild Talents which could not be either duplicated with a spell or with a newly researched one? I guess it's the same mentality that makes me prefer more archetypal classes with lots of specialized Feats, rather than new prestige classes.
GothicDan 02-20-07, 07:17 PM	Let's not forget that Galaron Nihmedu, a Moon elf fighter/ sorcerer/ Tomb guardian/ shadow adept is also a CG to CN person and uses the shadow weave nearly as good as the Shadovar do. He follows Corellon Larethian and not Shar, so it just goes to show that a Moon elf and a Half elf of good alignment both weild the SW and follow goodly deities and have nothing to do with Shar at all. Corellon most likely don't like one of his elves to weild the SW, but he'll just have to suck it up and deal with it, as Galaeron saved the major elven city of Evereska with the SW and was offered a position among the High Mages of that city. Maybe not as a High Mage, but possibly as a peer among powerful arcane spellcasters. Worst. Trilogy. Ever.
MerrikCale 02-20-07, 09:21 PM	Worst. Trilogy. Ever. certainly one of them.
Lord Karsus 02-20-07, 10:52 PM	Worst. Trilogy. Ever. certainly one of them. ::Nods Sadly:: -So many inconsistencies, with pre-established lore, and self-contained lore. -In Book I, a large "explosion" ensues when Shadow Weave magic and mundane magic is combined. In Book III, we have Shadow Weave magic, and mundane magic combining- in a Mythal no less- to no adverse effects. Make up your mind...
Nicholas the Paladin 02-21-07, 03:28 AM	Man, I start a thread about the Shadow Weave and people start talking about Skyships and bad novels :rolleyes:
Kid SixXx 02-21-07, 06:54 AM	Man, I start a thread about the Shadow Weave and people start talking about Skyships and bad novels :rolleyes: Sadly, that's what happens when folks come to a consensus too early in the thread. :( The fact that they ARE so similar to magic means, to me, that there's really no point in having them (other than making a profit). You must be talking about the present day. Back in the old psionics days, the rules were an appendix to the old Players Handbook, so there was no profit to be made. Most planar denizens also had psionic talents. I seem to recall the inside joke of Asmodeus having 333 psionic points (half of the Number of the Beast before recent scholarly discussion). Are there any Psionic Wild Talents which could not be either duplicated with a spell or with a newly researched one? Sure, but would those newly researched spells duplicating psionic powers work in a dead magic zone, anti-magic zone, or survive repeated attempts to dispel them? Probably not. Psionics, OTOH, probably would unless you wanted to gimp those powers viai a rather broad interpretation of the psionics / magic transparency rules.
Diffan 02-21-07, 07:39 AM	Man, I start a thread about the Shadow Weave and people start talking about Skyships and bad novels :rolleyes: I'm guessing the Shadow Stone wasn't a very good novel then. I was actually thinking about buying it, if it can be found.
Karsus the Mad 02-21-07, 09:25 AM	Sure, but would those newly researched spells duplicating psionic powers work in a dead magic zone, anti-magic zone, or survive repeated attempts to dispel them? In FR, psionics are magical, and thus magic reacts with them as it does with other magic. Antimagic field suppresses psionics, dispel magic dispels them, SR and PR are the same thing. The only bonus psionics get is that they are weaveless, thus dead magic zones in either weave have no effect on them.
Kid SixXx 02-21-07, 11:51 AM	In FR, psionics are magical, and thus magic reacts with them as it does with other magic. Antimagic field suppresses psionics, dispel magic dispels them, SR and PR are the same thing. The only bonus psionics get is that they are weaveless, thus dead magic zones in either weave have no effect on them. So FR universally adheres to the transparency rules then. No wonder psionics isn't well liked by the rank and file. Unless you're in a slugfest in the Helmlands, there's no real advantage to being a psion as opposed to being a wizard.
MerrikCale 02-21-07, 01:02 PM	I'm guessing the Shadow Stone wasn't a very good novel then. I was actually thinking about buying it, if it can be found. We are not referring to the Shadow Stone but a subsequent trilogy regarding the return of Shade. I would buy Shadow Stone its not bad at all. Certianly better than the Return trilogy.
Faraer 02-21-07, 02:21 PM	So FR universally adheres to the transparency rules then. No wonder psionics isn't well liked by the rank and file. Unless you're in a slugfest in the Helmlands, there's no real advantage to being a psion as opposed to being a wizard.The Invisible Art is -- not magic -- that's just a 3E rules artefact. -- almost always a spontaneous rather than a learned power: you don't choose to be a psion.
Lord Karsus 02-21-07, 02:22 PM	In FR, psionics are magical, and thus magic reacts with them as it does with other magic. Antimagic field suppresses psionics, dispel magic dispels them, SR and PR are the same thing. The only bonus psionics get is that they are weaveless, thus dead magic zones in either weave have no effect on them. -I never liked that rule. There is no real reason to be a Psion, or the related classes. We are not referring to the Shadow Stone but a subsequent trilogy regarding the return of Shade. I would buy Shadow Stone its not bad at all. Certianly better than the Return trilogy. -Supposedly, the Shadow Stone has a lot of spelling errors. I remember reading that somewhere...And, I also recall reading that in the novel, they refer to the language of the Elves (Elven) as Tel'Quessir, which has never been done before.
GothicDan 02-21-07, 02:49 PM	I never liked the psionic transparency rule, and it never came into mind during this discussion. In this vein, it just seems to me, to feel like it's a form of "magic but not really" that just allows you to get the advantage over another person. Seems kind of powergamey, and it's not something I'd want in the hands of a PC.
Stigger 02-21-07, 03:37 PM	Would be much better if they took away the 'manifestations' and the spell-analogy stuff and made it more... well, Professor X for lack of a better way to put it. Of course doing that without going completely campy would be the hard part.
Karsus the Mad 02-21-07, 04:37 PM	So FR universally adheres to the transparency rules then. No wonder psionics isn't well liked by the rank and file. Unless you're in a slugfest in the Helmlands, there's no real advantage to being a psion as opposed to being a wizard. In 3.5 yes, in previous editions no. As Faraer said, it's a rules artefact more than lore. The Invisible Art is -- not magic -- that's just a 3E rules artefact. -- almost always a spontaneous rather than a learned power: you don't choose to be a psion. In 3.5 it is magical in nature. It even goes so far as to declare that neither Mystra or Shar has power over it nor do they control the promulgation of it, yada yada yada. It may be a rules artefact, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a type of magic in 3.5 FR. Needless and poorly thought out retcon I might add. It would have been easier to simply stay with founded lore and include a clause stating it's not transparent with magic. I don't see any need for them to have turned it into nothing but "weaveless magic". But people can choose to be a psion. There's even psionic colleges where people can learn...Riatavin has a large one...but pfft on that. I don't like psionics, so I typically ignore anything that places them in FR. -I never liked that rule. There is no real reason to be a Psion, or the related classes. I couldn't agree more, and I've tried:P
MerrikCale 02-21-07, 09:12 PM	--Supposedly, the Shadow Stone has a lot of spelling errors. I remember reading that somewhere...And, I also recall reading that in the novel, they refer to the language of the Elves (Elven) as Tel'Quessir, which has never been done before. I don't recall that one way or the other, it has been many many years, but I do recall thinking the novel was OK, which is more than I can say for the books we were addressing earlier in this thread.
MaskedOne 02-22-07, 06:48 PM	I couldn't agree more, and I've tried:P I don't know, psionics is a useful contingency for when strange beings go and convince Mystril to suicide while they're on a magically suspended mountain in the friggin SKY but hey I'm a little strange. Honestly, though while I wouldn't be as happy with the current psionic arrangement in most other worlds, it provides me a Weave free access to supernatural abilities that going by the PGtF can be aquired by anyone with the resources and dedication to learn. Free of express divine control, not requiring unique talents that one is born with (though they help a great deal, I'd guess and save a year or more of downtime unlocking the abilities if you're in a campaign I'm running most likely), fluff wise psionic abilities solve my key problems with Toril's magic and let me go back to avidly defending Mystra in peace. Now, I just have to start get the current system with the dead changed.
Lord Karsus 02-22-07, 08:23 PM	I don't know, psionics is a useful contingency for when strange beings go and convince Mystril to suicide while they're on a magically suspended mountain in the friggin SKY but hey I'm a little strange. -Indeed, that is very strange...:P
Karsus the Mad 02-22-07, 09:28 PM	Hmmm, what? I'm a lil' burdened, since I'm using my mind for -----somthing.....what's the concentration check for?
msatran 02-23-07, 03:17 PM	Unequivocably, yes. There is no reason on earth a Paladin of Mystra wouldn't just KILL you for using the Shadow Weave. Active Worship of Shar AS A PATRON, or giving an evil god power, is outlawed in most good nations (Cormyr, Waterdeep, Etc). Therefore, if I am good aligned, in order to prevent that transfer of power from Mystra, a good aligned deity, to Shar, an evil aligned deity, I KILL THE SHADOW WEAVE USER! The Shadow Weave user should be considered evil by every good aligned character with one rank of Knowledge: Religion or more, and any Good aligned character who casts divine spells. Otherwise, TEMPLES OF SHAR WOULD BE PUBLIC LOCATIONS IN GOOD ALIGNED CITIES, and they're not. They didn't put that Temple of Shar in the Champions of Ruin Web Enhancement because the Shadow Weave was a benefit to the good aligned characters of the world. Mystrans should be going on crusade to kill every shadow weave user in the world so Shar doesn't gain more power, and the Selunites should be helping them. Quite frankly, the Shadow Weave is Richard Baker's bastard child of Birthright, and it doesn't belong in the Realms, or in D+D in general. The sooner they get rid of it, the better.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-23-07, 03:39 PM	Nah. I just don't have preconcieved notions for something I've never experienced:) Damn....can they at least move forwards and backwards on their own? Halruaan skyships can only move up and down, with forward movement relying on wind...one would think if they can get the bloody things to move up and down with enchanted turtle shells, they could attach some of those darn things to back and front. I dunno if I like that part...talking to my engine...well, I have on occasion yelled at my car engine...but I don't think that's the same:P You could always steal one of those Githyanki sky ships from the Githyanki invasion in Dungeon magazine. Those things handle like a dream. I stole one. Man does it handle nice. Maneuverability GOOD! It’s like the Cadillac of sky ships! Still stinks of Githyanki though. I have a bunch of those pine tree air fresheners hanging everywhere, but it doesn’t help!
Nicholas the Paladin 03-18-07, 04:30 AM	Unequivocably, yes. There is no reason on earth a Paladin of Mystra wouldn't just KILL you for using the Shadow Weave. Active Worship of Shar AS A PATRON, or giving an evil god power, is outlawed in most good nations (Cormyr, Waterdeep, Etc). Therefore, if I am good aligned, in order to prevent that transfer of power from Mystra, a good aligned deity, to Shar, an evil aligned deity, I KILL THE SHADOW WEAVE USER! The Shadow Weave user should be considered evil by every good aligned character with one rank of Knowledge: Religion or more, and any Good aligned character who casts divine spells. Otherwise, TEMPLES OF SHAR WOULD BE PUBLIC LOCATIONS IN GOOD ALIGNED CITIES, and they're not. . Man, you're quite vocal about this. But I think your a bit off. Sure, worshipping Shar is really really evil, ...that is obvious. But you reasoning is: "Shar = Shadow Weave. So if SW is okay --> Shar would be okay." Where's the nuance in that? I'm glad I have (some) of my discussion back, but you're pushing it. It's also like saying "know that Microsoft is an evil organisation, so every Windows-user should be killed." All for the greater glory of Apple and the whole of humanity. Quite frankly, the Shadow Weave is Richard Baker's bastard child of Birthright, and it doesn't belong in the Realms, or in D+D in general. The sooner they get rid of it, the better. Ah, so that's the reason. You are probbaly right in saying that they used an idea the wrong way. You clearly hate the concept.
Stigger 03-18-07, 04:42 AM	Well, for all intents and purposes Shar does pretty much equate to the Shadow Weave... sure it can be used for neutral ends, possibly even good ends, but the base 'source' is still evil. I wouldn't say that casting from it was automatically evil however, recalling the Malconvoker PrC from Complete Scoundrel as good evidence that evil things can indeed be turned to good ends if used correctly. I would say however that it opened you up to corruption on at least some level, and that by shutting yourself off from the Weave you are in a very real sense aiding and abetting evil by giving that defacto support and power to Shar. No matter what you're doing with it, it certainly isn't good, is my point I suppose. As to the Microsoft arguement, it's a bit off since Shar is demonstrably evil, whereas the perception of Microsoft is purely subjective.
miscellany 03-18-07, 04:44 AM	As to the thread topic: The correct (and Canon) answer is no. In play I could see many an NPC with the wits and knowledge of the Shadow Weave assume your PC was evil, but that would be human(oid) error. :::::::::::: As to the off topic-ness: Psionics...read my sig. To play is to know. To not play means you have to assume. I'd rather be smart than an ass. ;) That is: for all you folks who haven't played a psion (in the Realms) and are considering it...go for it. Don't let the wanna-be elitist talk from this tread trick you out of some real fun to be had playing a psionic character in the Realms esp. when there's so much psionic-themed material and lore for your DM to draw from to build adventures around. This from someone who used to strongly dislike the concept, until I played it and DM'd for others who played psions. Reading about it in Salvatore novels didn't hurt either. :)
Zsych 03-18-07, 06:32 AM	@OP: Lore/Novel-wise... combining the sources I've read(RotA and the Halruaa series, and other stuff). I'd say that... 1. The Shadow-weave itself isn't evil, and Shar doesn't do much of anything to its users. Even those trying to regain Weave usage, and basically annoying her are targeted by assassins, not a magic use ban. 2. In taking up the Shadow-weave, your true nature is brought to the front. Your suppressed side brought to your consciousness, and forced to exist side by side. Now, if you are let's say, basically good inside and out. It won't do anything to you. If you have suppressed evil tendencies(lets say in adapting to your society), those suppressed parts of your persona will be awakened and you will have to either accept them, or end up in a state of internal conflict where one viewpoint seeks dominance over the other, with the battle shifting from time to time between the two. More use of Shadow-magic, will cause the hidden side of the user to become more visible over time(let's say, the process of adjustment, of the awakening of the suppressed self, takes a few months as the suppressed side gains strength in the user's mind.. and is finally fully brought to consciousness) --- As for how others would deal with it. I'd say that most wizards will realize that you are using an unusual type of magic that they themselves don't understand. Whether they realize its the Shadow-weave or not depends on their knowledge. Servants of Mystra, likely won't be too pleased meeting a Shadow-weave user, and likely won't think well of them to start with. Elminster for example, has considerable bad experience with shadow-mages, and most of the rest of the Chosen have encountered the Shades(who form the majority of shadow-weave users)... so people who respect their opinion, likely won't think as highly of you. .... which should be interesting to play. On the other side, I suspect that unless you're a worshipper of Shar, servants of Shar won't think well of you using the Shadow-weave either(those knowledgeable enough to know of it) So you're basically damned from both sides :) --- If you worship Shar without being evil though, and as long as she's not making you do too much. I'd say that having the goddess of forgotten secrets as your patron could go rather well. I expect interesting, twisted, unexpected and thus fun things from her.
theAlastorian 03-21-07, 12:13 PM	Okay, a comment was made earlier that I want to question the validity of. "Shar made the Shadow Weave." I was under the impression that the SW, like the Weave, just was. It happened to be Shar who discovered it and she then latched onto it immediately, bringing it into her portfolio. Now, if I'm wrong in this thought then that's fine. But if I'm correct, then that means that in no way does the SW have an alignment other than TN. It simply exists and people access it as they see fit. The problem that SW users run into, as has been stated previously, is the connotations that come along with SW use. It all depends on who knows of it's existence, and what they think of it. Quite honestly, the chosen of Mystra and the rest of Mystra's worshippers should have the intelligence to understand the similarities between the regular Weave and the SW. And thus would have to take the individual's actions into account before making a judgment. I don't see them immediately attacking anyone who shows aptitude for shadow magic. Otherwise, you'd think that the Shadovar would be smoldering piles of shadow ash by now. If I'm wrong in my first assumption, please let me know.
Karsus the Mad 03-21-07, 01:04 PM	Shar created it, according to the FRCS (page 57, "Shar created the Shadow Weave in response to Selune's creation of Mystra and the birth of the Weave.") and Magic of Faerun (can't remember what page:P).
Alac Luin 03-21-07, 03:17 PM	FRCS-pg 260, The War of Light and Darkness 2nd pargraph explains how Selune created the Weave, it contained the magical energy of Selune and Shar. The shadow weave can be considered the Shar aspect. Psionics- Transperancy rules, great for balance, hampers powergameing. Why be a psion? Fluff. Although psionics in the realms has more of a "wild talent" bent, and this can be stuck with. Single powers, limited PPs, full psionic classed charicters never had a strong presence (not saying they never existed).
Zsych 03-22-07, 06:36 AM	The Weave made from parts of Shar and Selune, became a goddess in itself(Mystryl). The Shadow-weave, is something Shar created, copying the effects of the rather random creation that was the Weave... I go by the opinion that both Shar and Selune lost their ability to use RAW magic, in the act of creating Mystryl.. but Mystryl herself gave them an alternate route to power. Shar must not have liked being dependent. ... I also think that being a copy of Mystryl/Mystra, that the SW might actually be a near god/goddess in itself, except that its not actually conscious(so it can be controlled by Shar).
theAlastorian 03-22-07, 12:59 PM	Okay, I didn't have my books in front of me when I posted and so I was wrong. No problem. My theory still stands, however, that like the Weave, the SW is merely a tool, not inherently good or evil.
Karsus the Mad 03-22-07, 01:04 PM	Okay, I didn't have my books in front of me when I posted and so I was wrong. No problem. My theory still stands, however, that like the Weave, the SW is merely a tool, not inherently good or evil. Like my patron, Gond, I agree 150%. It's merely a tool, one in which the Karsi shall dominate!:evillaugh
MaskedOne 03-22-07, 07:06 PM	So the Karsi intend to take the Shadow Weave off Shar's hands and maybe put it a bit lower on the list of items that I should worry about being used to help end the world? More importantly is it going to be used as a net for divinity volleyball or did you have a new plan?
Karsus the Mad 03-22-07, 08:53 PM	More importantly is it going to be used as a net for divinity volleyball or did you have a new plan? Oh, the divine volleyball tournament is still on. Afterwards, it's going to be my new hammock:D
Stigger 03-23-07, 12:22 AM	We going to invite Beshaba to the match? That illustration of her in F&P was just too yummy. :D
Karsus the Mad 03-23-07, 07:45 AM	We going to invite Beshaba to the match? That illustration of her in F&P was just too yummy. :D Damn straight she is:cool:
Alediran 03-23-07, 09:58 AM	Damn straight she is:cool: It's her only way to attract followers without using intimidation techniques.
Karsus the Mad 03-23-07, 01:22 PM	It's her only way to attract followers without using intimidation techniques. I like intimidation...it's so kinky....<giggle>
Stigger 03-23-07, 02:37 PM	I respond well to the right sort of intimidation myself... :D
Nicholas the Paladin 03-30-07, 09:59 AM	Hi Guys, thanks for te responses till so far. I'm considering playing a Gnome Beguiler that by accident aquired the ability to cast spells in the Shadow Plane (background story: a roguish fella becoming a Beguiler). He will be casting spells from the Shadow Weave (SW), but doesn't know it. He just likes the things he can do with it. I understand that the Shadow Weave and the Shadow Plane don't have to do with each other that much, but I wanted to have somewhat of a story and I like the flavour of it all. My question is: I'm worshipping Carl Glittergold (the Gnome prankster) as a Diety. Would he mind me casting from the SW? Or would he judge me by my actions mainly?
Stigger 03-30-07, 05:07 PM	I don't think he'd be too happy if you actively embraced Shar, but given that you said he acquired the SW by some mishap, I doubt he would really object so long as you didn't slip into evil.
lightcwu 03-31-07, 12:53 AM	Hey guys I've always been fascinated by this question, because in her listing in Faiths and Pantheons nor in Faiths & Avatars does it give Shar the Portfolio sense Shadow Weave. Which implies to me that her dominance over that particular Weave isn't as open and shut as she may hope. Now before I go on I have read, and know, that text and mechanics alike give Shar far reaching powers when it comes to the Shadow Weave, but I question if that is merely because Midnight doesn't know how or chooses not to opes Shar's control over it. I would point out that the contest between the two Weaves has only become a serious issue since the fall of Mystra #2. Now there are a lot of obvious explanations for this, but what about the less obvious ones. I'm a philosophy major so you could say that I over analyze minor details but stick with and please try to listen...or whatever...to what I have to say. No one argues that Mystra is anything less then the full spirit and body of living magic if Farune she is, it says she is, and she has the Portfolio to prove it. In the natural world, though, all things that have shape and body cast a shadow of themselves. I argue that what Shar did was not create a separate entity from the Weave but instead gave that natural shadow of Mystra it's own form, think peter pan...that is a REALLY bad example but it's the best I can think of right now. If we stipulate this: that rather then being a separate thing it is just a reflection, photo negative, or just plain shadow of the being or power that is Mystra then we can have a new understanding of this source and power. I have a few answers to some of the questions I had when forming this theory. 1.) Then wouldn't Mystra be aware of the Shadow Weave? No more then any of us are aware of our own shadows. It is something that exists because we exist but we do not know anything about our shadow unless we observe it; we do not have innate knowledge of it, then we can see how the Shadow Weave would be separate entity but still tied to Mystra. 2.) It exists where Mystra does not have influence doesn't that mean it must be separate? Not really first of all our shadows can fall where we do not, while they can exist where we do/underneath us it can still fall where we do not have influence. Also with Shar "messing" with it she can expand it as she sees fit. 3.) As Mystra weakens it supposedly strengthens WTF? First I want to see what exactly they mean by this because it just kind of confuses me but I will accept it as fact because it is what text says. As you pull your hand back from an area your shadow grows bigger. Also if you look in MofF it gives a representation showing that the less space taken up by the Weave the more space taken up by the Shadow Weave. I feel this fits in well with this idea of Mystra's influence being pulled back. As she pulls back her shadow grows but her influence lessens. 4.) Why does Shar have any form of control over the Shadow Weave? For the same reason that your budy can give your shadow moose antlers. I hold it would only take Mystra asserting her dominance and "baping" Shar's hands away to take control of it. 5.) If it is the opposite of Mystra or "Photo Negative" wouldn't it be evil? Maybe right now it is possible but I would also point out that Mystra was neutral for thousands of years before becoming good and this Mystra is trying to be Neutral. Also I would again with the hole Peter Pan thing say that it's a little more removed then that. This has been way to long of an entry and if your still with me I'm impressed so I'll give possibly the most controversial statement yet. This is my justification for why I want to play a Shadow Weave using, Neutral aligned, worshiper of Mystra. Crazy I know but I've always wanted to do it. Unfortunately none of my friends will DM Farune so it will probably never happen but maybe now that it exists online someone else will do it and e-mail me stories about it.
MaskedOne 03-31-07, 01:16 AM	Skipping the majority of the philosophy because well it's after 1 AM, I only have one real objection to a Shadow Weave user following Mystra. That being, it's a temporary state of affairs. A true follower of Mystra is not going to want to stick the Shadow Weave if a way back to the true weave becomes available and I don't see any great reason that switching away from the Shadow Weave should impossible. As long as the character has no real objection to switching back to Mystra's Weave eventually or the opportunity is never offered though, I don't see a problem.
lightcwu 03-31-07, 07:20 PM	Skipping the majority of the philosophy because well it's after 1 AM, I only have one real objection to a Shadow Weave user following Mystra. That being, it's a temporary state of affairs. A true follower of Mystra is not going to want to stick the Shadow Weave if a way back to the true weave becomes available and I don't see any great reason that switching away from the Shadow Weave should impossible. As long as the character has no real objection to switching back to Mystra's Weave eventually or the opportunity is never offered though, I don't see a problem. I can understand where your coming from on this one. Some of the concept for the character is that they where casting from the Shadow Weave before the Time of Troubles. Also if the premise of this is true or at least able to be effectively argued, which I would say it is, then the claim the character would make is that they are still paying respect and homage to Mystra. That they just worship a different aspect of her and though the Shadow Weave is separate it is still Mystra. Again your shadow isn't you, but it is still part of you. Follow the logic? I know it's wiggy but...If this makes me seem more or less sane I don't know...I didn't post the whole Metaphysical Analysis of the Dual State of Being. I've put a frightening amount of thought into this. Also this character must be arrogant enough to think that they know more then their god. Not so much with the old Mystra because it wouldn't really be an issue but I think that it's response to Midnight would be that she just needs to accept that the Shadow Weave is part her and embrace the neutral side of her that is Mystra and lose the good side of her that is Midnight. That is the main reason for them having been a caster before the fall, so they would have come into their beliefs under a neutral Mystra. I honestly think that the old Mystra would not only have approved of this philosophy but would have encouraged it. After all I don't exactly know what would happen if she had thousands of followers casting from the Shadow Weave but worshiping her, but one might think she would lose some of the blindness to it (keeping with the shadow idea turn and face her own shadow.) Particularly under the new system I think it becomes less of an issue. She wouldn't lose any of her divine rank because she keeps the follower(s) and I don't know would she gain a new portfolio...Only Ao knows. I'll stop now because this is starting to look like the last post. ;)
MaskedOne 04-02-07, 03:06 PM	I can understand where your coming from on this one. Some of the concept for the character is that they where casting from the Shadow Weave before the Time of Troubles. Also if the premise of this is true or at least able to be effectively argued, which I would say it is, then the claim the character would make is that they are still paying respect and homage to Mystra. That they just worship a different aspect of her and though the Shadow Weave is separate it is still Mystra. Again your shadow isn't you, but it is still part of you. Follow the logic? I know it's wiggy but...If this makes me seem more or less sane I don't know...I didn't post the whole Metaphysical Analysis of the Dual State of Being. The logic is interesting. To simplify this so excessively that it isn't particularly funny. The character in question is basically holding the view that Mystra is the literal Mistress of all Magic even if she isn't fully aware of it at a given time. I'm not entirely certain which Mystra the character learned magic during the reign of would matter. Both would want to subsume control of the Shadow Weave and use of the Shadow Weave is not inherently evil, dangerous and potentially corrupting, maybe but not inherently evil. The problem (on Mystra's side of the bargain) is that both could potentially look at the Shadow Weave as an affront to their position and it is iffy whether they would consider a character willingly remaining tied to it to be faithful or not. If forced to give a reccomendation, I'd say that as long as the character in question is an arcane spellcaster claiming Mystra as patron then this scheme works. I'm not so certain she'd tolerate it yet in a cleric or that Shar wouldn't simply cut off a cleric of Mystra (provided she can't corrupt them) rendering the point moot. I'd also point out that while Mystra may not personally have a problem, the same is not necessarily true of large numbers of her faithful. Admittedly, I think either Mystra is more likely to accept the character as sincere in their faith but slightly deluded than they are to agree with the character's assumptions but I've been wrong in the past.
lightcwu 04-03-07, 12:56 AM	As far as the Shadow Weave being corrupting it never mentions anything like that in any feat I've read or fluff text on the matter. So I don't think it fair to assume that it is evil in anyway. No more then the weave is good. No I don't want to sound like I'm with the NRA but if magic isn't evil then I can't see how the Shadow Weave is evil. No the problem would be the repercussions from Shar because that ***** is crazy, and no one is going to think that she isn't evil.
Ramenth 04-04-07, 04:20 PM	It strikes me as this. Shar is the goddess of hidden things. Chances are she'd know if you were accessing the Shadow Weave. Assuming you didn't go against her, however, you probably wouldn't know she knew you were using the weave. It does seem likely to me that, if you are using the Weave without her permission, she'd likely take an interest in you at some point, and either order you to do things directly (Or lose access to the Shadow Weave) or some how slip corrupting influences on you to get you to do what she wanted. Edit: As far as the Explosions involved in mixing Shadow Weave and the Weave; It was said/implied multiple times in Book 1 and 2 of RoTW that it was done purposefully, espeically during the battle with Elminster in ShadowDale (Where the Hell-Mouth opened).