| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Todesherr02-19-08, 11:31 PM | No more Greater, Intermediate, Lesser and Demipowers? Just a god is a god and everything else is maybe divine but no god? Someone had alluded to that possibility! :eek: Say it ain't so joe.... I am ****ing worried as hell! So gods are just vast, powerful and indefinable...? Someone tell me, Help me! Linky?! |
| Another Gnome02-20-08, 02:25 AM | The last I heard was that they're dropping the intermediate rank and reducing the divine power of demigods. What they're certainly not doing is making gods omnipotent; one of the possible goals for epic PCs in 4E is to challenge (and become) gods themselves. I wouldn't interprete that so that all deities are getting monster write-ups, but it would seem that gods as a rule will be more Olympian in nature (with epic PCs being on par with Herakles... at least). |
| Todesherr02-20-08, 09:55 AM | The last I heard was that they're dropping the intermediate rank and reducing the divine power of demigods. What they're certainly not doing is making gods omnipotent; one of the possible goals for epic PCs in 4E is to challenge (and become) gods themselves. I wouldn't interprete that so that all deities are getting monster write-ups, but it would seem that gods as a rule will be more Olympian in nature (with epic PCs being on par with Herakles... at least). Strange. So Greater Powers and Lesser Powers and that's it...?:eek: |
| Lord Karsus02-20-08, 10:24 AM | -I wouldn't mind if they got rid of the 'DvR' scale, but I don't like the idea of eliminating the category of 'Intermediate Deity'. |
| Gray Richardson02-20-08, 12:22 PM | I don't know if they are getting rid of the DvR scale, necessarily, but I don't think they were too happy with the god rules they came up with for 3e, or at least found that they spent a lot of time and resources working out those rules to find that nobody really was using them or found much application for them in their games. Likely they will leave gods less defined in 4e, statting them with just the minimum info such as name, rank, holy symbol, portfolios, and such. My guess is that they eliminated the "Intermediate Deity" rank in order to better mirror the 3 tiers of character play, heroic, paragon, and epic. I figure divine ranks will be scaled something like the way characters scale, with demigods being equivalent to the heroic tier, lesser gods equivalent to paragons, and greater gods equivalent to the epic tier. It is possible there might be ten DvR levels within each tier of godhood. But I am just speculating. |
| Lord Karsus02-20-08, 12:36 PM | Likely they will leave gods less defined in 4e, statting them with just the minimum info such as name, rank, holy symbol, portfolios, and such. -Richard Baker has already stated that there isn't going to be a 4e version of Faiths and Pantheons, so since whatever information about deities is going to be included in the 300something page 4e FRCS, it's in everyone's best interests if information is kept to a minimum, so that the limited space in the book(s) can be used elsewhere. |
| Kenzuki02-20-08, 05:20 PM | See that kinda sucks in my opinion, as I rather enjoyed the god books (minus the stats). |
| Lord Karsus02-20-08, 06:50 PM | See that kinda sucks in my opinion, as I rather enjoyed the god books (minus the stats). -Yes, it does. Everyone is losing. To insert all of that stuff into the FRCS, takes away room in the FRCS, that could be other stuff, and it takes away from the deities themselves, as less is going to be written about them. -Think about it like this: In 2e, It took 3 books in 2e to cram all of that information (and, the Orcish Pantheon wasn't even included). 3e crammed all of that into 1 book. 4e is going to cram what used to be 3 whole books into...<30 pages or so. A shame... |
| Todesherr02-20-08, 08:32 PM | -Yes, it does. Everyone is losing. To insert all of that stuff into the FRCS, takes away room in the FRCS, that could be other stuff, and it takes away from the deities themselves, as less is going to be written about them. -Think about it like this: In 2e, It took 3 books in 2e to cram all of that information (and, the Orcish Pantheon wasn't even included). 3e crammed all of that into 1 book. 4e is going to cram what used to be 3 whole books into...<30 pages or so. A shame... I am sad. |
| Kenzuki02-20-08, 08:44 PM | -Yes, it does. Everyone is losing. To insert all of that stuff into the FRCS, takes away room in the FRCS, that could be other stuff, and it takes away from the deities themselves, as less is going to be written about them. -Think about it like this: In 2e, It took 3 books in 2e to cram all of that information (and, the Orcish Pantheon wasn't even included). 3e crammed all of that into 1 book. 4e is going to cram what used to be 3 whole books into...<30 pages or so. A shame... Yeah......:weep: |
| Another Gnome02-21-08, 02:41 AM | Mind you though, practically all of the fluff in F&P was simply paraphrased from past products, and the rest of the book was god stats and prestige classes. Personally I'd like there to be a 4E version (with more god stats!), but I can understand if Rich & Co. don't want to make yet another book repeating what's already been said several times over. |
| Zanan02-21-08, 04:23 AM | -Richard Baker has already stated that there isn't going to be a 4e version of Faiths and Pantheons, so since whatever information about deities is going to be included in the 300something page 4e FRCS, it's in everyone's best interests if information is kept to a minimum, so that the limited space in the book(s) can be used elsewhere. Does that mean that my good old Faiths & Avatars series books will become gold dust in ... like ... no-time? :D Well, deities do not need stats, but given that there will still be a fair amount of faiths, you'd hope that they will create a fair amount of prestige classes for those. Well, coming to think of it, they will probably just give you domains as the main criteria of distinction (not that a fair number of deities have the same domains - and will have in 4E), add a few skill/feat trees here and there, the odd substitution level and so on, keeping the cood old fluff to a minimum. Ach well, I first would like to know who will survive all this before making any more comments. NB: It would, of course, be quite absurd if they chop and change the deities around, after paying the designers of the FC I & II double money for publishing "up"-dated versions of the demon princess like Grazz't and Yeenoghu in the recent Dragons. For we most surely all needed CR 21 and CR 28 versions of those ... |
| GothicDan02-21-08, 08:07 AM | I think WotC is personally trying to drive me into a berserker rage, sometimes. ;) |
| Lord Karsus02-21-08, 10:05 AM | Mind you though, practically all of the fluff in F&P was simply paraphrased from past products, and the rest of the book was god stats and prestige classes. -Yes, which is how they condensed three 2e books into 1 3e book, as I mentioned. Does that mean that my good old Faiths & Avatars series books will become gold dust in ... like ... no-time? :D -Yes. Get your copy machine and E-Bay ready. NB: It would, of course, be quite absurd if they chop and change the deities around, after paying the designers of the FC I & II double money for publishing "up"-dated versions of the demon princess like Grazz't and Yeenoghu in the recent Dragons. For we most surely all needed CR 21 and CR 28 versions of those ... -Does the head really seem to know what the hands are doing lately? I think WotC is personally trying to drive me into a berserker rage, sometimes. ;) -Yes, it's all a conspiracy against you. |
| GothicDan02-21-08, 11:19 AM | No! Boooo!!!!111one. one. |
| Lord Karsus02-21-08, 11:22 AM | No! Boooo!!!!111one. one. -Here, put on this plot-armor I have laying around. It'll keep you safe. |
| Zanan02-21-08, 12:23 PM | -Does the head really seem to know what the hands are doing lately? Aye. Grazz't has been given a write-up in the Book of Vile Darkness, FC I and again in one of the latest Dragons. Yeenoghu too ... Malcanthet was given CR 21 write up in FC I, and another CR 28 in Dragon 353 (Demonicon of Iggwilv). ... Or what were you referring to? |
| Kenzuki02-21-08, 08:28 PM | The Demon Princes in FC I are only supposed to be more powerful Aspects of the true demon lord. |
| GothicDan02-21-08, 09:58 PM | More powerful? |
| Lord Karsus02-21-08, 10:49 PM | -Weren't most of them 'downgraded' in the Fiendish Codex books? |
| MarkusTay6302-22-08, 12:29 AM | Yup... Hell is being run like a corporation now, and they're downsizing... :rolleyes: |
| Todesherr02-22-08, 09:21 AM | But if the Abyss is just a raging, frothing sea of chaos with mindless chaos and evil, where will a sly and cunning guy like Grazzt go? |
| Lord Karsus02-22-08, 01:49 PM | But if the Abyss is just a raging, frothing sea of chaos with mindless chaos and evil, where will a sly and cunning guy like Grazzt go? -The border? |
| Kenzuki02-22-08, 08:20 PM | As in they are more powerful Aspects than the weaker one's that are in the CR 10-14 range in some other books like the mini's handbook. The Grazz't in the dragon mag was in the CR 30's. Though that does seem a little low considering Elminster is a CR 39 dude and I'de think a Demon Prince could kick his tail personally, or SHOULD. |
| GothicDan02-22-08, 08:58 PM | Eh, I would treat the top Demon Lords and Dukes of Hell as Gods or "close enough to be Gods anyway." |
| Lord Karsus02-23-08, 12:23 AM | Though that does seem a little low considering Elminster is a CR 39 dude and I'de think a Demon Prince could kick his tail personally, or SHOULD. -Agreed. |
| sfdragon02-23-08, 06:08 AM | personally, id prefer they only list the deities and their alignments, and who their followers can be in the frcs 4E. I foresee that they will see that would be the easiest thing to do, would be to put them in the player's guide too with a bit more detail..... or make a 4E book of who do you follow for the deities. the stats can go, best thing to say is that they have 30 points more in each stat than the groups most powerful character whether or not they do it on the otherhand is another barrel full of drunken monkeys |
| Kenzuki02-23-08, 07:19 AM | -Agreed. Then again Igglywhateverthehellhernamewasagain managed to imprison Grazz't and rape him so she'd have a child. Then when he broke free she defeated him in combat and sent him back to the Abyss. So maybr Grazz't was just a pansy? |
| GothicDan02-23-08, 08:42 AM | Or it was all part of his plan. |
| Lord Karsus02-23-08, 10:40 AM | Or it was all part of his plan. -Indeed. He's a schemer. |
| GothicDan02-23-08, 02:09 PM | He's definitely my favorite Abyssal Lord, and I'd replace Cyric with him in a heartbeat. |
| Lord Karsus02-23-08, 03:53 PM | -I'd like to see Abyssal Lord and their Infernal counterparts regain some prominence. Sure, they are only Demons and Devils, but they should be on par with deities. |
| Kenzuki02-23-08, 05:01 PM | Something I've always wondered. Did Grazz't ever try to rape or seduce Waukeen when she was trapped there with him? Would their union produce a demigod? Or an Abomination such as the Infernal...... |
| Lord Karsus02-23-08, 05:29 PM | Something I've always wondered. Did Grazz't ever try to rape or seduce Waukeen when she was trapped there with him? -He did whatever you want him to have done to her. Would their union produce a demigod? Or an Abomination such as the Infernal...... -I don't think that, if such a union happened, anything would be produced. |
| GothicDan02-23-08, 06:10 PM | I think so, but for two reasons: A) I really like Classical mythology and B) Grazzt is known for being especially... Prolific. |
| Zanan02-23-08, 06:13 PM | He's definitely my favorite Abyssal Lord, and I'd replace Cyric with him in a heartbeat. Yep, and via him Iggwilv sneaks into the Realms and controls him from behind the screen. Of course, Cyric is not exactly a match for Grazz't ... at least when it comes to portfolios et al. While we are at it, can I have Rhyxali in opposition of Shar please? NB: Lord Karsus, methinks you still owe me an answer in this thread. |
| GothicDan02-23-08, 06:16 PM | Rhyxali's pretty cool, but I do think Shar's got a bit of a foothold that'll be hard for her to overcome... If you believe the mythology, of course. |
| Lord Karsus02-23-08, 06:54 PM | NB: Lord Karsus, methinks you still owe me an answer in this thread. -42!...What's the question? I think so, but for two reasons: A) I really like Classical mythology and B) Grazzt is known for being especially... Prolific. -My reasoning is that Waukeen is divine, whereas Grazzt isn't. If she wanted to...expel a foreign entity growing inside of her, she could do it. |
| GothicDan02-23-08, 08:09 PM | Grazzt held Waukeen in his home domain. I consider Abyssal Lords to be 'divine' at the very least at those points. From Planescape, we know at the very least they can completely mold their domains like divine realms, provided they are 'in sync' with them. |
| Todesherr02-24-08, 12:14 AM | Grazzt held Waukeen in his home domain. I consider Abyssal Lords to be 'divine' at the very least at those points. From Planescape, we know at the very least they can completely mold their domains like divine realms, provided they are 'in sync' with them. Because Llira was holding her divinity at the time. She was being held as an underpowered avatar type figure at best, hence his ability to do keep here there... |
| GothicDan02-24-08, 12:58 AM | Oh yeah, that too. :) |
| Zanan02-24-08, 02:32 AM | -42!...What's the question? 42? No, post 17! :cool: |
| Kenzuki02-24-08, 07:01 AM | Yep, and via him Iggwilv sneaks into the Realms and controls him from behind the screen. Of course, Cyric is not exactly a match for Grazz't ... at least when it comes to portfolios et al. While we are at it, can I have Rhyxali in opposition of Shar please? NB: Lord Karsus, methinks you still owe me an answer in this thread. If Grazz't got beaten by Igglytuff I seriously doubt he could hurt a Greater God. Let's get serious here folks. Demon Lords and Archdevils are nothing more than overpowered fiends who aren't divine overlords (except for Asmodeus). |
| GothicDan02-24-08, 10:37 AM | That's patently false. Actually, it's false if you take into account older lore, as many people on the boards do. But even in 3E there's evidence that the various Lower Lords aren't just overpowered fiends, in that they CAN grant divine cleric spells. Your average Balor can't do that. Though in 3E, when they weren't multispheric per se, much of their importance was reduced. In 4E, I have a feeling like things are going to get multispheric again - especially with Orcus as the 4E posterboy. |
| Lord Karsus02-24-08, 12:00 PM | Because Llira was holding her divinity at the time. She was being held as an underpowered avatar type figure at best, hence his ability to do keep here there... -That is very true, and I forgot to take that into account. Waukeen was very much a mortal during the time she spent with Graazt, as deities did become mortals during the Time of Troubles. 42? No, post 17! :cool: -Seventeen...seventeen...Ah, here we go! I was referring to the fact that, as of late, the head does not seem to know what the hand is doing. That X employee(s)/division(s) of WotC says/does something, and Y employee(s)/division(s) of WotC doesn't seem to really know what's going on, and doesn't properly respond...Case in point, Gleemax, G0, WizOs, CM/CS, online DRAGON/DUNGEON... |
| Kenzuki02-24-08, 03:39 PM | That's patently false. Actually, it's false if you take into account older lore, as many people on the boards do. But even in 3E there's evidence that the various Lower Lords aren't just overpowered fiends, in that they CAN grant divine cleric spells. Your average Balor can't do that. Though in 3E, when they weren't multispheric per se, much of their importance was reduced. In 4E, I have a feeling like things are going to get multispheric again - especially with Orcus as the 4E posterboy. At best I'de consider them Demigods. Except for Asmodeus who is now a true Greater God going by 4th. |
| Lord Karsus02-24-08, 03:47 PM | At best I'de consider them Demigods. Except for Asmodeus who is now a true Greater God going by 4th. -You can't mix apples and oranges. |
| Kenzuki02-24-08, 03:48 PM | -You can't mix apples and oranges. Sure you can. Never had a smoothy before?:P |
| Lord Karsus02-24-08, 03:52 PM | Never had a smoothy before?:P -Actually, no. Never. |
| Zanan02-24-08, 05:00 PM | -Seventeen...seventeen...Ah, here we go! I was referring to the fact that, as of late, the head does not seem to know what the hand is doing. That X employee(s)/division(s) of WotC says/does something, and Y employee(s)/division(s) of WotC doesn't seem to really know what's going on, and doesn't properly respond...Case in point, Gleemax, G0, WizOs, CM/CS, online DRAGON/DUNGEON... Hm ... clever reply. :cool: BTW, and more aimed at the later posts, I'd rather wait on anything substantial (such as printed material) before commenting on Asmodeus and his status. |
| GothicDan02-24-08, 05:13 PM | At best I'de consider them Demigods. Except for Asmodeus who is now a true Greater God going by 4th. Asmodeus was a Greater God in 2nd. And Dispater had the power of a Greater God when in his Iron Citadel - which is part of why I was stating the above about Infernal Lords in their own domains. |
| Lord Karsus02-24-08, 05:25 PM | Hm ... clever reply. :cool: -Everything I say is either cleaver or great. :P Asmodeus was a Greater God in 2nd. And Dispater had the power of a Greater God when in his Iron Citadel - which is part of why I was stating the above about Infernal Lords in their own domains. -I'm against Asmodeus, the rest of the Devil Lords, and all of the various Abyssal Lords actually becoming deities, if this is indeed the case. I'd rather them be on par with divinities, concerning raw power, but not actually be deities. Like they are now. -Not everything that is very powerful has to be a deity. |
| GothicDan02-24-08, 05:29 PM | That's true, LK. Asmodeus was unique in that he wasn't your typical deity - he didn't only gain power from worshipers, but from lack of faith, too. So the Athar was actually a big boon to him, even if he didn't create them. Of course, there's a lot of blatantly Zoroastrian stuff in A Guide to Hell, so all of that should be taken with a grain of salt. Dispater had the powers of a Greater God, as I said, only in his Citadel - he wasn't ACTUALLY a deity. I think this was mostly a deterrent for adventurers thinking that they could waltz into Dis and take on the big man himself. Note that Dispater is also one of the very oldest Dukes of Hell, so he has reason to be one of the most powerful. |
| Lord Karsus02-24-08, 05:44 PM | That's true, LK. Asmodeus was unique in that he wasn't your typical deity - he didn't only gain power from worshipers, but from lack of faith, too. So the Athar was actually a big boon to him, even if he didn't create them. -The Athar are just that awesome. Them and the Believers of the Source. Dispater had the powers of a Greater God, as I said, only in his Citadel - he wasn't ACTUALLY a deity. I think this was mostly a deterrent for adventurers thinking that they could waltz into Dis and take on the big man himself. Note that Dispater is also one of the very oldest Dukes of Hell, so he has reason to be one of the most powerful. -Dispatcher, meet 4e. ;) -I took a test to see which of the Nine I most closely resembled, and I was Levistus. |
| Kenzuki02-24-08, 06:08 PM | I think Asmodeus as a god makes sense considering the new lore about him leading a rebellion against his god and taking his place so to speak. But I know you all hate 4th edition anyway so you probably don't like that either. |
| Lord Karsus02-24-08, 06:11 PM | But I know you all hate 4th edition anyway so you probably don't like that either. -No, because a lot of that goes against what has been previously said/told about Asmodeus. |
| Kenzuki02-24-08, 10:09 PM | -No, because a lot of that goes against what has been previously said/told about Asmodeus. Well this version isn't Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms. So just consider it different. When you start from scratch like they are doing for 4th edition, you don't have to worry about older stuff. So having Asmodeus as a Core God in this new edition isn't a bad thing. |
| GothicDan02-24-08, 10:33 PM | There is no "core" setting any more. And if it's not FR of Greyhawk, then I don't care, since, er, I'm playing FR... Or I'd be playing Planescape, which is based largely on the multiverse originally set down via Greyhawk and generalized across all settings in 2E. |
| Lord Karsus02-24-08, 11:28 PM | Well this version isn't Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms. So just consider it different. When you start from scratch like they are doing for 4th edition, you don't have to worry about older stuff. So having Asmodeus as a Core God in this new edition isn't a bad thing. -What Dan said. |
| Zireael02-25-08, 03:36 AM | Grazz't + Waukeen = half-fiend quasi-deity (like the Bhaalspawn) or infernal. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-25-08, 01:36 PM | The Bhaalspawn are neither half-fiends nor quasi-deities. Whatever the case may be about Asmodeus, the picture of him in Worlds and Monsters is damn cool! |
| Kenzuki02-25-08, 02:12 PM | It appears as though Karsus is Dan's flunky....:P |
| GothicDan02-25-08, 02:15 PM | Naw. We just agree on a lot of things. It's why we're such good buddies. It gives us massive bonuses when we cast Elven High Magic. |
| Lord Karsus02-25-08, 02:15 PM | It appears as though Karsus is Dan's flunky....:P -As mentioned elsewhere, we are contemporaries. I do not serve him, and he does not serve me. Only the Hands of Karsus serve me, and his name is not on the list. -Our communal mind allows us to cast Ar'Selu'Tel'Quessir more effectivley. |
| Kenzuki02-25-08, 02:18 PM | Elven High Magic is gay. The Magic of the Netherese pwns it anyday of the week. Now that that fool Mystra is dead, you shall see TRUE magic once again! *inserts evil laughter* |
| Lord Karsus02-25-08, 02:19 PM | -Wow...That's crazy. Me and Dan post basically the same thing at the same exact time... Elven High Magic is gay. The Magic of the Netherese pwns it anyday of the week. Now that that fool Mystra is dead, you shall see TRUE magic once again! *inserts evil laughter* -And this is why no one takes you seriously. :nonono: |
| Lord Karsus02-25-08, 02:19 PM | -DOUBLE POST- |
| GothicDan02-25-08, 02:22 PM | Elven High Magic is gay. The Magic of the Netherese pwns it anyday of the week. Now that that fool Mystra is dead, you shall see TRUE magic once again! *inserts evil laughter* Elven High Mages could cast the exact same spell levels as the Arcanists, AND they were able to cast true 10th level Magic AFTER that Fall, AND could use Elven High Magic on top of all of that. *Communal mind with LK.* Also, if EHM is gay, then you know I approve of it. |
| Kenzuki02-25-08, 02:24 PM | -Wow...That's crazy. Me and Dan post basically the same thing at the same exact time... -And this is why no one takes you seriously. :nonono: No one took Hitler seriously at first either... |
| GothicDan02-25-08, 02:26 PM | That's not a good analogy to make if you want allies. ;) |
| Lord Karsus02-25-08, 02:26 PM | No one took Hitler seriously at first either... -Depends on the timeframe. But, that's not a very good analogy, either. |
| Kenzuki02-25-08, 02:27 PM | The Crimson Seraph does not need allies. I am Death Incarnate! |
| GothicDan02-25-08, 02:29 PM | LK, do you have the components for the Ritual, or should I conjure them in? |
| Lord Karsus02-25-08, 02:32 PM | LK, do you have the components for the Ritual, or should I conjure them in? -They're in my Demiplane. You probably know the password to get by the Fey Crossroad Guardian by now... |
| GothicDan02-25-08, 02:36 PM | Indeed, I do. I do... Poor Kenzuki. He brought this upon himself. |
| Lord Karsus02-25-08, 02:38 PM | -Heh, posts 70 and 71 are more or less the same thing, and were posted the exact same time as well! Crazy... |
| Kenzuki02-25-08, 02:41 PM | 'Ware mortals, greater beings than you have tried... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-25-08, 03:15 PM | Elven High Magic is gay. Obviously, not everyone sees that as a bad thing.;) |
| GothicDan02-25-08, 04:40 PM | 'Ware mortals, greater beings than you have tried... Mortals? What'chu talkin' 'bout? |
| Lord Karsus02-25-08, 05:15 PM | -I'm about as unmortal as they come! My continued existence makes little sense! :P |