Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Evandar_TAybara 02-22-07, 06:47 PM	Coulds someone give me the (rough) year when Jergal handed over his portfolio to the Dead Three? For that matter, is there a good Faerûnian timeline out there that I can get my hands on - I find that the timeline in the FRCS regularly doesn't have what I'm looking for, is hard to use if you have no idea when an event occured, and that other events listed elsewhere in the various FR books more often than not don't actually say when they happened other than it being "in the past". Evan.
Stigger 02-22-07, 07:19 PM	I believe that is a matter of some speculation. I don't think it's ever been concretely revealed beyond sometime between the collapse of Netheril and the rough era of the Seven Sisters youth, as Bane is mentioned in one of the books as having been around during Alustriels youth... think that was either Elminster in Hell or Silverfall, but I'm a bit hazy as to the exact reference. So at least 670 some odd years ago, at an absolute minimum... but not more than 1600 years ago or so... I think. Not that a 1000 year window is all that helpful, but don't think it's ever been narrowed any more than that.
Old Sage 02-22-07, 07:20 PM	We can't really provide a "rough" year either. Initial estimates suggest between 267 DR and 700 DR as the time of ascension for Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul. Though... Lands of Intrigue notes that a young noble of Clan Fyrson, in -88 DR, was charged with worshipping the dark gods Bane and Myrkul. This tends to throw the above estimates out and suggests that Bane and Myrkul ascended earlier than 267 DR and after -339 DR which marks the Fall of Netheril. Specifically, we can assume that this event occured sometime between -339 DR and -88 DR.
Stigger 02-22-07, 07:24 PM	Missed that Lands of Intrigue tidbit... you really are scary sometimes Old Sage.
BadCatMan 02-22-07, 07:27 PM	They probably had some divine essence, immortality and fame prior to visiting Jergal, as they'd already slain Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud, and Bane might have made the other Lost Gods "bow down before him" prior to his ascension. So they could have been DvR 0 (that right? I don't know divine rules) beings worshipped by a few stray cults (and that Fyrson guy), before ever becoming official gods thanks to Jergal.
Old Sage 02-22-07, 07:30 PM	We also know that Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul slew Borem -- one of the Seven Lost Gods -- each seizing a portion of Borem's divine essence for themselves. This was, perhaps, shortly before they entered the Castle of Bone and confronted Jergal. F&P places the Lake of Boiling Mud's, which may have been the "avatar" of Borem, possible location on Mezeketh Isle -- two miles SW of Saerloon's harbor. It's also said that the Lake may have existed, during pre-Dale Reckoning, somewhere in Jhaamdath -- possibly in the vicinity of what would become Sembia. No specific dates are offered. Jhaamdath "falls" in -255 DR. And Chondathan, which will eventually become Saerloon, was "properly" established between the 360's and 380's DR. 'Tis likely founded some time before that... given that Chondathan migrations across the Inner Sea to the lands of what will become Sembia, occur around the -200s DR. Given the -339 DR starting point, and the details about the Lake possibly being located in pre-Dale Reckoning Jhaamdath, that could possibly narrow the period of Bane's ascension to between Netheril's Fall in -339 DR and the Fall of Jhaamdath in -255 DR. Additionally, Eric offers this little tidbit... "Implicit in your assumption is that the Lake of Burning Blood is a "real lake". I'd suggest that maybe it's a moveable lake (in other words, the lake is the "avatar" of Borem). Alternatively, it could be the lake is created by opening a blood-spewing portal. When the portal closes/moves, the lake drains away. --Eric"
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-23-07, 07:09 PM	We also know that Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul slew Borem -- one of the Seven Lost Gods -- each seizing a portion of Borem's divine essence for themselves. This was, perhaps, shortly before they entered the Castle of Bone and confronted Jergal. F&P places the Lake of Boiling Mud's, which may have been the "avatar" of Borem, possible location on Mezeketh Isle -- two miles SW of Saerloon's harbor. It's also said that the Lake may have existed, during pre-Dale Reckoning, somewhere in Jhaamdath -- possibly in the vicinity of what would become Sembia. No specific dates are offered. Jhaamdath "falls" in -255 DR. And Chondathan, which will eventually become Saerloon, was "properly" established between the 360's and 380's DR. 'Tis likely founded some time before that... given that Chondathan migrations across the Inner Sea to the lands of what will become Sembia, occur around the -200s DR. Given the -339 DR starting point, and the details about the Lake possibly being located in pre-Dale Reckoning Jhaamdath, that could possibly narrow the period of Bane's ascension to between Netheril's Fall in -339 DR and the Fall of Jhaamdath in -255 DR. Additionally, Eric offers this little tidbit... "Implicit in your assumption is that the Lake of Burning Blood is a "real lake". I'd suggest that maybe it's a moveable lake (in other words, the lake is the "avatar" of Borem). Alternatively, it could be the lake is created by opening a blood-spewing portal. When the portal closes/moves, the lake drains away. --Eric" You know after Netheril’s fall a lot of Gods appeared out of no where! What’s up with that? When was the Dawn Cataclysm? Is it called that because it happended at the dawn of the world? Or because the Morning Lord was the major perpetrator?
ripvanwormer 02-23-07, 07:26 PM	When was the Dawn Cataclysm? Is it called that because it happended at the dawn of the world? Or because the Morning Lord was the major perpetrator? For the second reason. The Dawn Cataclysm didn't happen in mortal time. It happened in mythic time, which means it doesn't correspond to any historical period. It's like asking when Osiris was killed by Set, or when the Big Bad Wolf ate Grandmother. It happened "Once upon a time." You can't get more specific than that - there was no point in history when someone could have looked into the heavens and thought, "Tyche is splitting into two aspects right now," even if the gods had seen fit to share that information. It always happened "Once upon a time." The first time mortals heard about the incident, they were told it happened long, long ago, in a galaxy far, far away. And this was nothing but the truth.
Old Sage 02-23-07, 07:58 PM	Actually, it was dated once (161 DR), in a poster handed out a GenCon -- the seriously flawed (and now largely ignored) Netheril Timeline handout as I recall. Though, Eric Boyd first suggested that the Dawn Cataclysm happened outside the timestream and, thus, cannot be dated. Lucien, you'll find what little we do actually know about the Dawn Cataclysm in both Faiths & Avatars and Faiths & Pantheons.
BadCatMan 02-23-07, 08:23 PM	The DC probably includes every major divine event that wasn't part of the Time of Troubles (who knows, maybe that too): the take-down of the Lost Gods by Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul, their ascension, Tyche leaving Lathander, Tyche's split, the fall of Netheril and Jhaamdath and their gods, and numerous others.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-23-07, 08:54 PM	The DC probably includes every major divine event that wasn't part of the Time of Troubles (who knows, maybe that too): the take-down of the Lost Gods by Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul, their ascension, Tyche leaving Lathander, Tyche's split, the fall of Netheril and Jhaamdath and their gods, and numerous others. That’s seems logical. Too bad we will never know. It would be nice to nail down specific ties for all that stuff.
see 02-24-07, 12:40 AM	Tyche killed and absorbed Tymora and Besheba in 1491 DR, shortly before Moander came back from the dead again. In 1635 DR, the Dawn Cataclysm took place, and auto-reset the timeline back to -33,365 DR. After the fifth time this happened, Jergal quit, because he realized there'd never be an end to everything with the freaking Dawn Cataclysm restarting the timeline every 35,000 years. He's been a demigod ever since, including the 119 subsequent reboots. His records show that Bhaal kills Cyric during the Time of Troubles 64.7% of the time; that there have been 382 Goddesses of Magic (all named Mystr-something, except one who kept her mortal name Hermione); and that Moander is not really a god but rather the green thing growing in the back of Ao's refrigerator on the Great Leftover Deep-Dish Pizza that is the true form of the Outer Planes.
MarkusTay63 02-24-07, 01:54 AM	Ummmm... Okay... I can live with that, especially the part about Moander. :D Missed that Lands of Intrigue tidbit... you really are scary sometimes Old Sage.He's not really human, he is a super-computer, the mainframe that WotC keep their data base on. ;)
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-24-07, 04:04 AM	Tyche killed and absorbed Tymora and Besheba in 1491 DR, shortly before Moander came back from the dead again. In 1635 DR, the Dawn Cataclysm took place, and auto-reset the timeline back to -33,365 DR. After the fifth time this happened, Jergal quit, because he realized there'd never be an end to everything with the freaking Dawn Cataclysm restarting the timeline every 35,000 years. He's been a demigod ever since, including the 119 subsequent reboots. His records show that Bhaal kills Cyric during the Time of Troubles 64.7% of the time; that there have been 382 Goddesses of Magic (all named Mystr-something, except one who kept her mortal name Hermione); and that Moander is not really a god but rather the green thing growing in the back of Ao's refrigerator on the Great Leftover Deep-Dish Pizza that is the true form of the Outer Planes. What?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Tyche killed who? Are you being serious with that first part?
MarkusTay63 02-24-07, 04:13 AM	...and that Moander is not really a god but rather the green thing growing in the back of Ao's refrigerator on the Great Leftover Deep-Dish Pizza that is the true form of the Outer Planes.You know, I've been doing my own version of the wheel for the past week, and it turned out having eight slices (one for each alignment) and one center circle for the outlands (which looks like one of those little 'dollhouse tables' on the pizza that they throw in there to keep the middle of the box from touching the pie). So I have to agree, that after ALL my intensive research, it REALLY is a Pizza! Now people can argue if they like the Pizza or the Great Lasagna! :D
Tergiver 02-24-07, 06:37 PM	If you're looking for a Realms timeline, you could do a lot worse than A Grand History of the Realms (http://www.geonomicon.com/chronology/A%20Grand%20History%20of%20the%20Realms. pdf). There are also other, simpler timelines out there for the Googling. I think I understand the desire to make certain divine events part of mythic time, but sometimes you just really need to know when certain mortal cultural shifts were happening. I needed to know when Jergal demurred to the Dead Three, so I went first to Realmslore and second to the Roll of Years. I put it in 569 DR, the Year of Tumbled Bones, based on the legend of how the Three divided Jergal's portfolio. This changed how I saw the Three - the Time of Troubles became less of "upstart mortals dislodging established gods" and more "the last set of mortals couldn't hold on for even a thousand years, let's see how this batch does". I still like See's answer, though.
see 02-25-07, 12:05 AM	What?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Tyche killed who? Are you being serious with that first part? The current date in FR is 1375 DR. The date I gave for the event was 1491 DR. FR is theoretically set to advance two years in setting per five years of real time. Accordingly, you'll know for sure if I was serious or not in 290 years. Mark your calendar for the year 2297. (Yeah, I was just feeling silly. None of it's true. Well, except the bit about Ao having a refrigerator.)
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-25-07, 04:13 AM	Where the Dread Three running around about the same time Torm ascended to a demigod? Someone suggested to me that Torm is secretly Banes brother and that’s why Torm hides the location of his mortal kingdom. To insure that no one ever links him to Bane. I think its silly, but just thought I would throw it out there. What do you all think?:D :confused:
Gray Richardson 02-25-07, 10:01 AM	Best estimate is that Torm ascended between -236 DR to -216 DR. Torm ascended within a few years after Tyr arrived in Faerun in the procession of Justice in -247 DR, and after Ilmater paired with Tyr. As for Torm being connected to Bane, I had never heard that mentioned before. It can't be ruled out; the timing is at least in the ballpark.
ripvanwormer 02-26-07, 04:33 AM	I think I understand the desire to make certain divine events part of mythic time, but sometimes you just really need to know when certain mortal cultural shifts were happening. That's an important distinction. While it's not possible to give a mortal date to the Dawn Cataclysm, it is possible to note when the clerics of Murdane stop receiving their spells, or when the cult of Beshaba first started establishing itself as separate from the church of Tyche (and when the church of Tyche finally changed its name to the church of Tymora). Note that while the death of Murdane and the separation of Beshaba and Tymora might have happened very close to one another from a mythic perspective, they might have been far removed in mortal time (or even in a different order). Mortal time and mythic time don't have to correlate at all.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-26-07, 04:11 PM	That's an important distinction. While it's not possible to give a mortal date to the Dawn Cataclysm, it is possible to note when the clerics of Murdane stop receiving their spells, or when the cult of Beshaba first started establishing itself as separate from the church of Tyche (and when the church of Tyche finally changed its name to the church of Tymora). Note that while the death of Murdane and the separation of Beshaba and Tymora might have happened very close to one another from a mythic perspective, they might have been far removed in mortal time (or even in a different order). Mortal time and mythic time don't have to correlate at all. I know this might sound dumb, but I have to ask who is Murdane?
Jax_Nightstalker 02-26-07, 04:31 PM	I know this might sound dumb, but I have to ask who is Murdane? Murdane was a lesser goddess of reason and the lover of Helm the god of guardians. Murdane died during the DC and Helm blames Lathander for her death. Helm doesn't care to much for Lathander for the death of his girl.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-26-07, 04:36 PM	Oh ok. I do remember reading some vague references to her some where. That’s why Helm is so sad all the time. Did Helm ever have a think with Mystra part 1? I remember they shared a realm before the writers messed up the cosmology. Plus he shed a tear for her when he killed her. Does anyone one know where Helms old girl friend was kill or the circumstance of her death?:confused:
Old Sage 02-26-07, 07:44 PM	It was rumored that Helm and Mystra I were lovers at some point -- as suggested in Waterdeep. We don't know much more about Murdane's demise. Only that it occured as a result of the Dawn Cataclysm.
Gray Richardson 02-26-07, 10:01 PM	Here is some wild speculation about Murdane. Murdane was the daughter of Auppenser and Eldath, a Jhaamdathi goddess of reason born from the union of stillness and peace with the power of mind. She was the grandaughter of Mystryl and Oghma, and lover of Helm. During the Dawn Cataclysm, Murdane was caught up in the fervor of Lathander's Dawn Crusade. He sought to unify the disparate pantheons of Faerun under his leadership. He hoped to vanquish the darker elements, or at least reign them in under the control of the deities of good. Murdane became Lathander's strategist, the chief architect of the Dawn Campaign, and with Helm as the Marshal of the armies of light, together they prosecuted the war of the Dawn. Murdane had the insight and depth of understanding to make Lathander's vision a reality. When war erupted among the pantheons, the Dawn saw early triumphs as Murdane took every advantage and engineered victory in battle after battle. Only one saw further than Murdane. Savras the all-seeing, divined a terrible consequence of Lathander's plan. Savras perceived that if Lathander were to succeed in uniting Faerun under the banner of the Dawn, that eventually, as the cycles turned, Faerun would be consigned to the Lord of the End of all Things. Dendar the Night Serpent would be released to devour the sun, and the world of Abeir-Toril would fall to an eternal night. So Savras undertook to foil the Dawn Crusade. In the end he had only to whisper one word in the right ear for it all to fall apart. Like the pieces of a chess game, the players arrayed themselves according to Savras's plan. In the confusion of battle, Lathander mistook the distant silhouette of Helm as his opponent and, knocking an arrow to his lambent bow, loosed a fatal shaft. It shined like the rays of the sun as it seared toward Helm's heart. In an act of fateful percipience, Murdane saw the bolt and leapt before it, sacrificing her own life to save her love. In the absence of her keen strategy, the forces of light suffered loss after loss, their solidarity cracked and shattered. Even Lathander's charisma was unable to hold together their once powerful alliance of the Dawn. In the wake of the Dawn Cataclysm, a dark time fell upon the gods and Faerun itself. Mystra had Azuth hunt Savras down for his perfidy. Savras knew this too would be his fate, but he was prepared to spend his time imprisoned until Faerun would need him again. Savras is awake again, recently released from his long confinement under order of Mystra. And he keeps his keen, unwinking eye upon Lathander, who once again begins his preparations for a second Dawn Crusade. :w:
Old Sage 02-26-07, 11:03 PM	Neat stuff Gray -- especially with regard to Eldath being Murdane's mother. :cool: I was content enough to speculate that Murdane's mother may have been another, perhaps unnamed goddess, of the Jhaamdathan pantheon. Though, Murdane's porfolio may simply have grown up as an extension of combining the "peace" aspects of Eldath's portfolio with that of Auppenser's focus on "enlightenment." Interesting.
Gray Richardson 02-26-07, 11:21 PM	Well, the idea that Eldath was part of the Jhaamdathi pantheon, stems from a line in the introduction to Faiths & Pantheons about there being 4 major human proto-pantheons (and several other minor human pantheons) back in the days before the Dawn Cataclysm united them into a single greater Faerunian pantheon. Those 4 major pantheons were separated/segregated according to geographic and cultural spheres of influence. There was the Netherese pantheon which was detailed in the Netheril box-set. There was a Talfiric pantheon based in the Western Heartlands which seems to have included Lathander, and the gods of Fury such as Auril, Umberlee, Malar, Talos, etc. The largely unrevealed Coramshite pantheon which included Anach (or Anachtyr), Bhaelros and likely Ibrandul. And then the Jhaamdathi pantheon which included Auppenser and others. As part of the Talfiric pantheon, Umberlee would have been the sea goddess of the Sword Coast. She would likely not have been known in the Inner Sea. Stephen Schend had suggested on the Candlekeep boards that Eldath likely had a larger role in Jhaamdath and around the Sea of Fallen Stars where she was venerated by sailors and seafaring traders for calm ports and peaceful waters. It is likely that Eldath had the greater role of sea goddess to the Jhaamdathi pantheon, even though she has since lost that portfolio to Umberlee in the wake of the Dawn Cataclysm. We have had a lot of fun speculating and trying to reconstruct the Jhaamdathi pantheon in other threads. ;)
Old Sage 02-26-07, 11:54 PM	Hmmm... Eldath -- as "goddess of peaceful waters" -- a big god for those in the port cities of Jhaamdath. Indeed. I would imagine, however, that many of her surviving worshippers from Jhaamdath would've eventually started looking negatively toward her. Citing reasons that she simply "failed her faithful" when the tidal wave came crashing down resulting in the near-total destruction of Jhaamdath. Which is likely why Eldath's worship is now largely denied, and perhaps even actively shunned in surrounding regions, the Vilhon Reach for example, and in even in Chondath. Though, I would think there may still be some place for Eldath worship in these regions... though perhaps not as a "goddess of peaceful waters", but instead as the focus of heretical Eldathan cults who worshipped her as a goddess of watery retribution.
ShadezofDis 02-27-07, 11:25 AM	Eldath is still worshipped in the Reach, I think Turmish is supposed to have the most followers (I'm not 100% but I am about 90% *g*) It could be that the Turmish do not have the "historical distaste" for Eldath that most others in the Reach might have due to the immigration from Chessenta (I'm pretty sure the Turmi got pushed out after Jhaamdath was destroyed, though as I'm thinking of it . . . well, anyway you cut it that's one tough immigration, over the mountains then over the Reach, or just over the mountains if the Reach wasn't there yet) Anyhow, given the peaceful nature of life in Turmish, I'd say that Eldath would get support there.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-27-07, 01:30 PM	Well maybe I can finally find a use for Eldath in my campaign. She is usually only useful as a victim.
ShadezofDis 02-27-07, 03:27 PM	Well maybe I can finally find a use for Eldath in my campaign. She is usually only useful as a victim. Uses for Eldath; Temple of Eldath, good for PCs who need some healing (and fun for the DM if you decide they don't want to heal someone who engages in violence regularly) NPC follower of Eldath whom the PCs need a favor from. Somehow these violent killing machines need to earn the trust of this pacifist. etc etc etc It is tough to find a use for Eldathial flavored things (other than the poor victim) in your standard dungeon crawl. Also, an Eldathial priest could still turn undead and cast "hold" type spells.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-28-07, 01:44 AM	True ture. All good ideas. Kinda getting back to the point of the thread. The dread three! A better question then ‘when’ would be more about the ‘who’ and ‘how’! What were their classes when they were mortals? Where were they from? How did such evil individuals maintain and alliance without ever betraying each other? I’ve always wondered what their classes were when they were mortals. I imagine Bane was the Black Guard with a couple of levels of Mage. Myrkul would of course be a Necromancer and the main spell casting force of the group. He might possible have a few levels of cleric to provide healing. Maybe even give him the Ture Necromancer class just for fun. I wonder who Myrkul worshiped? Bhaal is easy in that he would be a fighter/thief with maxed out assassin levels. What does everyone out their in Forgotten Realms land think?
Krash 03-02-07, 08:15 PM	The Dead Three. Looks like some more info is required ... okay, we're on it.:) -- George Krashos
Old Sage 03-02-07, 09:11 PM	::snicker:: In more ways, than just the one... :D
BrennonGoldeye 03-02-07, 09:46 PM	The Dead Three. Looks like some more info is required ... okay, we're on it.:) -- George Krashos ::snicker:: In more ways, than just the one... :D This just makes me nervous....