Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Dancing_Cleric 08-04-07, 11:36 AM	Why do think Jergel gave up his his portfolios due to only boredom? Or is it possible that he has something else planned? If he had the portfolio of tyranny, why would a tyrant give up power? He must have been really....bored.
Lady_Mhaor 08-04-07, 12:48 PM	Hm hm, class is in session In ages past there was but one god of strife, death, and the dead, and he was known as Jergal, Lord of the End of Everything. Jergal fomented and fed on the discord among mortals and powers alike. When beings slew each other in their quest for power or in their hatred, he welcomed them into his shadowy kingdom of eternal gloom. As all things died, everything came to him eventually, and over time he built his power into a kingdom unchallenged by any other god. Eventually, however, he grew tired of his duties for he knew them too well. Without challenge there is nothing, and in nothingness there is only gloom. In such a state, the difference between absolute power and absolute powerlessness is undetectable. During this dark era, there arose three powerful mortals - Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul - who lusted after the power Jergal wielded. The trio forged an unholy pact, agreeing that they would dare to seek such ultimate power or die in the attempt. Over the length and breadth of the Realms they strode, seeking powerful magic and spells and defying death at every turn. No matter what monster they confronted or what spells they braved, the three mortals emerged unscathed at every turn. Eventually the trio destroyed one of the Seven Lost Gods, and they each seized a portion of his divine essence for themselves. The trio then journeyed into the Gray Waste and sought out the Castle of Bone. Through armies of skeletons, legions of zombies, hordes or noncorporeal undead, and a gauntlet of liches they battled. Eventually they reached the object of their lifelong quest - the Bone Throne. "I claim this throne of evil," shouted Bane the tyrant. ''I'll destroy you before you can raise a finger," threatened Bhaal the assassin. ''And I shall imprison your essence for eternity," promised Myrkul the necromancer. Jergal arose from his throne with a weary expression and said, "The Throne is yours. I have grown weary of this empty power. Take it if you wish - I promise to serve and guide you as your seneschal until you grow comfortable with the position." Before the stunned trio could react, the Lord of the Dead continued, "who among you shall rule?" The trio immediately fell to fighting amongst themselves while Jergal looked on with indifference. When eventually it appeared that either they would all die of exhaustion or battle on for an eternity, the Lord of the End of Everything intervened. "After all you have sacrificed, would you come away with nothing? Why don't you divide the portfolios of the office and engage in a game of skill for them?" asked Jergal. Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul considered the god's offer and agreed. Jergal took the heads of his three most powerful liches and gave them to the trio that they would compete by bowling the skulls. Each mortal rolled a skull across the Gray Waste, having agreed that the winner would be he who bowled the farthest. Malar the Beastlord arrived to visit Jergal at this moment. After quickly ascertaining that the winner of the contest would get all of Jergal's power, he chased off after the three skulls to make sure that the contest would be halted until he had a chance to participate for part of the prize. Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul again fell to fighting, as it was obvious their sport was ruined, and again Jergal intervened. "Why don't you allow Lady Luck to decide so you don't have to share with the Beast?" The trio agreed, and Jergal broke off his skeletal finger bones and gave them to the players. When Malar returned form chasing the skulls, he found that the trio had just finished a game of knucklebones. Bane cried out triumphantly, "As winner, I choose to rule for all eternity as the ultimate tyrant. I can induce hatred and strife at my whim, and all will bow down before me while in my kingdom." Myrkul, who had won second place, declared, "But I choose the dead, and by doing so I truly win, because all you are lord over, Bane, will eventually be mine. All things must die - even gods." Bhaal, who finished third, demurred, "I choose death, and it is by my hand that all that you rule Lord Bane will eventually pass to Lord Myrkul. Both of you must pay honor to me and obey my wishes, since I can destroy your kingdom Bane, by murdering your subjects, and I can starve your kingdom, Myrkul by staying my hand." Malar growled in frustration, but could do nothing, and yet again only the beasts were left for him. And Jergal merely smiled, for he had been delivered.
The_Dancing_Cleric 08-04-07, 01:24 PM	Thanks. However, do think that he'll stay content with his current job?
1 ton ghost 08-04-07, 03:33 PM	illuminating to be sure. where did you get the excerpt from or is it your own? my g/f is playing a 1/2 Bedine 1/2 Chondath Human Cleric of Jergal with considerable acclaim. she even went so far as to take Spirit Sense (Heroes of Horror) which at first seemed useless, only for flavor, then became a wellspring of resource and plot hooks. still, we are conflicted. we know he serves kelemvor now whom is staunchly opposed to undead. i was kinda' of the opinion that since he's so dispassionate/aloof that he could go either way. you mentioned he had many undead retainers. i could see a fair degree given his pursuit of knowledge and preserving that eternally, etc. however, partyline dictates that he's not down so to speak. cyric, velsharoon, etc. make hordes of them and he's very uncool w/ that since you cheat Fate (his domain) i suppose. is there an official stance on undead w/in his clergy? is it possible to spontaneously cast curatives while rebuking, vice versa? there isn't alot published about him, even in Faiths and Pantheons so anything you could add would be grateful. apart from Doomguide (kelemvor), is there a prestige class for any death clerics that isn't rampantly evil?
Dimensional_Drifter 08-04-07, 03:49 PM	Isn't that passage from Faiths and Pantheons? or was it from Faiths and Avatars? I read it once before...
Lady_Mhaor 08-04-07, 04:26 PM	"History of the Dead Three: 'Knucklebones, skull bowling, and the empty throne" is what its called I forgot exactly were it came from. However, do think that he'll stay content with his current job? Well with his portfolio is and how he seems to act yes, in my opinion. He's sworn to aid whoever currently holds the portfolio of death. is there an official stance on undead w/in his clergy? They dont seem to mind them so much, there not like followers of kelemvor who actively seek out all undead to deanimate. Only undead that jergel does not sanction. is there a prestige class for any death clerics that isn't rampantly evil? I dunno, check libris mortis, you might get lucky
GothicDan 08-04-07, 05:10 PM	3E seems to have deleted the 'Grey Necromancer' archetype, in large part, and now only really offers rampantly evil LAWLZ UNDED Necromancers or Undead-killing Necromancers. That doesn't mean you can't build one with the right choice of Feats and the like; there's just a lot more mechanical information supporting the other two types.
jwanderer5 08-04-07, 10:11 PM	Story was from Faiths and Avatars. Powers and Pantheons has much more info on Jergal, his attitude towards undead and he's feelings about his last three masters.
1 ton ghost 08-05-07, 02:00 PM	Powers and Pantheons? never heard of it. 2nd ed?
Gray Richardson 08-05-07, 05:03 PM	The Age of Worms adventure path has an alternate take. If you download the Age of Worms adaptation material for Forgotten Realms from the Paizo website, Eric Boyd wrote some very interesting alternative motivations for Jergal stepping down. Age of Worms Overload (http://paizo.com/paizo/news/dungeon/v5748eaic9jzc)
Old Sage 08-05-07, 08:29 PM	Powers and Pantheons? never heard of it. 2nd ed?'Tis 2e, yes. Powers & Pantheons (http://paizo.com/store/brand/forgottenRealms/roleplayingGames/2ndEdition/v5748btpy7mln&source=search) is the companion volume to Faiths & Avatars.
Old Sage 08-05-07, 08:31 PM	The Age of Worms adventure path has an alternate take. If you download the Age of Worms adaptation material for Forgotten Realms from the Paizo website, Eric Boyd wrote some very interesting alternative motivations for Jergal stepping down. Age of Worms Overload (http://paizo.com/paizo/news/dungeon/v5748eaic9jzc)Note, however, that this is, in the words of Eric, a "non-canon interpretation."
1 ton ghost 08-06-07, 11:56 PM	thanks for the tip (worms overload), rather illuminating though i can see why it's not canon. i just wish there was something up to date and definitive reagading Jergal, that is, after the Avatar Crisis and so on. i know he's bookish and inscrutable, super ancient, and so on, but apart from his power behind the throne situation w/ kelemvor, they don't really say much. general PC consensus at our table is he's far more calulating than kelemvor, infinetly patient, but probably more prone to employing questionable magics/actions; death knell not to mention death touch, etc.
Old Sage 08-07-07, 01:06 AM	Jergal's entry in Powers & Pantheons provides some lore on the Forgotten One's activities after the Time of Troubles -- including places where his worship has experienced brief surges. And while the event itself is rooted in the past, we're likely to learn a little more about Jergal's relationship with the Dark Three [Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul] when they were still mortals, in the upcoming Grand History of the Realms.
MarkusTay63 08-07-07, 06:20 PM	Perhaps, as the ULTIMATE Tyrant, Jergal had his sights set a little higher after getting bored playing with mortals? He is a very alien being, and he could very well want Ao's job in the long haul. Who's to say he hasn't been pulling the strings behind the 'Dark Three', as their advisor, and even instigated the ToT? Weather the gods came out weakened, or Ao was dethroned as planned, Jergal still wins. ;) Its like when a pro-football player becomes a coach - he no longer actively participates, but he gets to call the shots (remember, he has acted as advisor to all the death gods, and probably to Bane and Bhaal as well). Maybe he even plays Shar off against Mystra - I picture him as the ultimate instigator, and the ultimate survivor. What better way to fulfill one's portfolio then to become the "Tyrant of the Gods". :devil:
The_Shaman 08-07-07, 06:25 PM	that since he's so dispassionate/aloof that he could go either way. you mentioned he had many undead retainers. i could see a fair degree given his pursuit of knowledge and preserving that eternally, etc. however, partyline dictates that he's not down so to speak. cyric, velsharoon, etc. make hordes of them and he's very uncool w/ that since you cheat Fate (his domain) i suppose. is there an official stance on undead w/in his clergy? Afaik there are bits and pieces that show that while Jergal is not a big fan of the undead, he accepts them if their existence serves the greater cause of death. IIRC members of one of his cults, the Scriveners of Doom, sometimes ask for church-sponsored undeath to continue their duties (I would stat them as necropolitans, as fine a place in the Reams for them as any). Likewise, an order dedicated to him called the Pallid Masks often hunts down non-sponsored undead - which, I would expect, means those that are becoming too troublesome. All in all, I think Jergal has little love for the undead (unlike Myrkul or Cyric, much less Velsharoon) but does not have a particular grudge against them (like Kelemvor). I wonder what stance the paladins of Jergal take, tbh. Yes, there are/were paladins of jergal - check Magic of Faerun for some spells limited to them, if you don't believe me. I would think that those are the Pallid Masks that iirc Faiths and Pantheons (and the wikipedia entry on Jergal) mention. "A separate, older priestly order dedicated to Jergal are the Companions of the Pallid Mask, dedicated to combating and controlling undead creatures not sanctioned by Jergal's church." As you can imagine, this would indicate that Jergal is fine with a few undead here and there as long as they don't cause too much trouble. BTW, I would like to get some more info as well. I am currently running a half-elven necromancer devotee of Jergal. I thought of having her go for the arcane devotee PrC, but I think I will go for pale master/master specialist or loremaster instead.
RedGlacier 08-08-07, 10:47 AM	I like Jergal. He's just so.. unscrutable. Ancient. Primal. The fact that he wasn't spotted on Faerun during the time of troubles just adds to his mystique. (Seriously, don't you just wonder where the heck he was?)
Gray Richardson 08-08-07, 07:15 PM	If I had to guess, I would think Jergal found himself incarnated as a spellweaver and ended up spending time in or around a community of spellweavers in the Chultengar. As an alternative, he might have been located in Halruaa, or other community of Netherese descent, where they might still tell the myths and legends of Jergal, harkening back to when he was a greater god of the Netherese pantheon in the millennia preceding Dale Reckoning.
MarkusTay63 08-09-07, 02:00 AM	Or maybe, like Helm, Ao left him where he was - someone had to look after the dead while the gods walked the realms.
Mirt_The_Money_Lender 08-10-07, 08:17 PM	Jergel is the iconic mediator and finds amusement in watching other gods squabble. The only gods he finds respect for Are Ao and Kelemvor his current charge. Jergel is the perfect adviser and usually sees what other miss. At least that's my take on him.
Meldread 08-10-07, 10:32 PM	Jergal is hands down one of my favorite deities. Like Shar he thinks things out as long term plans, and one of the big debates I have with Jergal is over him handing power over to Bhaal, Myrkul and Bane. My theory jives well with Markus' theory. It goes something like this: Jergal knew that the three were coming to challenge him for his power. Jergal at the time was obviously a Greater Deity, and really three mortals, even as powerful as those three, were no match for him. Had he wished it, he could have killed them, but instead he saw the bigger picture. Is it an accident that Bane and Myrkul were behind the Time of Troubles? Is it an accident that Jergal handed his power off to three deities that for all intents and purposes ended up dead? Is it an accident that Jergal seems to have been standing there, quietly, simply offering "advice" and "guidance" to various deities? Bhaal was killed, Myrkul is dead for all intents and purposes and Bane died but was resurrected. What is Jergal benefiting? Who knows? It seems that he could be focused on something really far out into the future, but I do believe firmly that out of every deity we have in the Realm's Jergal is the biggest Mastermind. He is the most manipulative. He is the most cunning and has the greatest patients. After all, does anyone really believe that Jergal suddenly got bored of his power or did he see something coming that no one else did? As for where he was during the Time of Troubles, I am in agreement with Markus. He was most likely dealing with the dead, so did not walk the Realms like the others.
Old Sage 08-10-07, 11:07 PM	Powers & Pantheons says Jergal played no part in the ToT; it's likely that since he only deals with dead folks, he escaped being cast down with the rest of the deities. Or, if he was cast down, he probably found a nice quiet out-of-the-way mausoleum, to hang out in for the duration. Tom Costa, in his compilation of notes on deity-related activities during the ToT states... "Jergal is mysteriously said to have played no part in the Time of Troubles." I've often speculated that this could suggest, perhaps, that it was 'expected' Jergal may have had some part to play in the ToT.
1 ton ghost 08-11-07, 03:22 PM	i am inclined to believe the following given limited text in Faiths and Pantheons (any 3rd/3.5ed material), theological debate, and hypothesis: -Jergal would probably destroy most undead (he serves and/or advises Kelemvor whom hates them, and LN align; orders are orders). this is not to say very rare provisions perhaps were made for a necropolitan archivist/historian/scrivener who must transcribe books of the dead). this is just an interpretation... ...we all know what fundamentalists do for religions: jihads, crusades, inquisitions, etc. Jergal is decided lawful and plays by the rules, but like death, he's level-headed and calm, not prone to lash out suddenly, largely due to being so damned old and calculating. this is why he can take his time and is perhaps most inhuman and patient of all gods. what's more patient than death? -he doesn't need to scheme manipulate cuz' he knows when everyone/thing is going to die (Fate) and must document that accordingly. simply put, he can just wait you to death as he knows your fate...he ain't talking about it, but he knows. -to manipulate that knowledge/act on it, is decidely evil if not unlawful. this is probably why he remained a deity during ToT, he was loyal to his portfolio to the 'T'. who knows. -not rocking the boat keeps him alive as a god and thereby insures his duties in the long run, lesser/greater/etc. deity status doesn't matter. who seriously hates him? they only envy his power/station. "when you're dead, you're dead." -another argument is that like life, death is like a sine wave; it's passed from good to evil hands and vice versa, bla bla bla. he's just reminding Kelemvor to stay the course (keep the wave in the middle), go LN as you must be impartial. he should've been The big death god, but again, he turned it down which might keep him alive should there be a divine revolt/disaster, etc. a conservative, if not, wise plan. -being primordal/super ancient is a smart match to the newest god, most naive, Kelemvor. dynamic opposites so to speak time wise. i doubt he would manipulate him as that would be in bad form let alone a breech of his portfolio. even Cyric, he was the Mr. Smither's to cyric's decidedly evil Mr. Burn's demeanor. a crude analogy, but... i thought he might be the oldest god, who knows. Ao? i never liked the concept of Ao anyway. tell me that's not some kiddie reference to alpha and omega... it is quite possible he saw the writing on the wall before the Dead 3 even made a move let alone any of the other FR history. he was just facilitating the transition and knew ultimately it would be bad, however, necessrary, ie)rip the band-aid off quickly argument: note the incredibly short reign of each death god versus his spotless and very long tenure. who's to say he didn't know how it would all pan out. he can just wait and make a subtle hint here and there as is his style. -i would've thought his favored weapon something else too: never seen a mention of him bearing the all-too-symoblic default scythe most death gods get. thought perhaps Unarmed Strike given the whole "white glove" death touch thing. artistic interpretation, that's all. all things considered, there MUST be more published MODERN text covering him. they give far too much time and emphasis on other gods w/ no real bearing/effect on the realms while he has immense power/influence, but rarely weilds it, and even when he does, it is very discrete and thoroughly planned. i know he's the braintrust among the most important portfolio/doman (seriously, what's bigger than death?), so why do the game designers/WotC thinktank always gloss him over?
Andyr 08-11-07, 07:10 PM	Is it an accident that Bane and Myrkul were behind the Time of Troubles? Is it an accident that Jergal handed his power off to three deities that for all intents and purposes ended up dead? Is it an accident that Jergal seems to have been standing there, quietly, simply offering "advice" and "guidance" to various deities? Bhaal was killed, Myrkul is dead for all intents and purposes and Bane died but was resurrected. What is Jergal benefiting? Who knows? It seems that he could be focused on something really far out into the future, but I do believe firmly that out of every deity we have in the Realm's Jergal is the biggest Mastermind. He is the most manipulative. He is the most cunning and has the greatest patients. After all, does anyone really believe that Jergal suddenly got bored of his power or did he see something coming that no one else did? I also like Jergal a lot and am developing a theory as a plot I'd like to run a campaign based on. Essentially, the idea is that Jergal is incredibly wise and cunning, and has realised that divine ranking is not--in a temporary sense--really that important. My thoughts are that Jergal gave the power to the Dead Three to reap a greater reward later; he may have seen the demise of the Dusk portfolio and wished to distance himself from it, or used his knowledge of the fate of all beings to see the coming of the Time of Troubles and the (temporary) death of the holders of his portfolios. So he got rid of them, knowing his successors would need his advice to do their job. It is interesting to note, I think, that Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul did not suffer as badly as they could have following their destruction: - Bane was reborn from Xvim. My theory is that Jergal was responsible for this and struck a deal with Bane to gain favours in exchange for Bane's rebirth. - Bhaal foresaw his death (or perhaps Jergal told him?) so fathered the Bhaalspawn. Plus some of Bhaal's essence still poisons the Winding Water; the point is that some part of him persists in the Realms, even after his death. - Myrkul lives on in the Crown of Horns. Jergal was an ally of Amaunator, and with the rising popularity of various Lathandrian heresies (and a possible second Dawn Cataclysm) it seems that Amaunator may reappear on the scene. This brings another potential ally (or two, depending on what happens to Lathander) onto the scene. So what will Jergal do? When he sees the time is ready, regain his lost power and influence. With Bane (and possibly Lathander and Amaunator on board--now that's an odd alliance) they will strike out at Cyric, who is a foe of pretty much everyone. Other deities (e.g. Mask and any of the Lawful or Good members of the pantheon) may give them a helping hand, or at the worst not get in their way. Although they might not destroy Cyric (who is a greater deity, of course) they would reduce him in power, and some power from his portfolios (Murder, Lies, Intrigue, Deception, Illusion) would have previously been arranged to go to Jergal. Jergal would use this power to elevate himself in stature, and perhaps raise Bhaal and Myrkul as demigods in his service (or under joint service to Bane). Alternatively Jergal might just consume their essences to reclaim some of his power. Next, I can see the alliance going after Kelemvor, who as a young deity doesn't have that much experience or long-lasting ties to other deities. Either through a direct attack or Jergal's manipulations resulting in Kelemvor failing in his duties and being punished, Kelemvor would lose control of the portfolios of Death and the Dead, which would return to their original holder. Jergal would have returned to much of his former power, have avoided the demise of the Dusk portfolio, have rekindled old alliances and cemented new ones. (And yes, the pantheon looks similar to the pre-ToT one.) He just needs to wait until the proper time. :)
Meldread 08-12-07, 12:34 AM	Actually, I think Jergal's plans may be vastly simplistic in nature. I do not think Jergal truly cares about power in the way a mortal would care about it. If he seeks power, it is a means to an end, because that is what Jergal is perpetually focused on: the end. He has willingly let himself fade into obscurity, almost as if he could careless if mortals worship him any longer. Yet, even as his worship has faded his power is not measured in divine ranks but in influence. Jergal is perhaps the most influential deity there is, and I have no doubt he has an endless amount of contracts that bind arch devils and celestials to his service as well as gods and favors owed out the wazoo. All of which Jergal could call upon as necessary. His lack of power makes him seem insignificant, and his long term planning makes him appear non-threatening. It is difficult to know if this is a true perception or simply the face Jergal has allowed the world to see. Does he seek ultimate power or is he truly transparent? I think if you step back and look at his history with the Dead Three it seems that he played them for fools. I have little doubt that Jergal's intentions of passing his powers over to the Three Stooges had little to do with boredom than it did for self-perseverance. Jergal likely foresaw his own death and a way to avoid it. He took it and then guided the Stooges forward to take the fall. If Jergal thirsts for ultimate power then he plans so far into the future that his plans are not truly readable. Does he plan to find a way to defeat Ao? Jergal sees the death of all things, and as such he has likely seen Ao's demise just as well as his own. Perhaps he is just biding his time for the right moment. In the end, though, I think there is one motivation that drives Jergal: To see the end of the world. He is a deity of fatalism, holding the firm belief that all things will eventually die. There is no escaping the hands of fate. This is just as true for mortals as it is for deities, and as it is true for gods it is also true for the world. Perhaps his goal is simply to perform his duty, ensuring that all things come to an end at their appointed time, and that each death is properly recorded. He does not require vast amounts of power to achieve this goal. All he needs is an endless amount patients and a great deal of influence, both of which he has in abundance.
1 ton ghost 08-12-07, 01:42 AM	yeah, i think you're right. the simplest answer is usually the correct one and his sphere of influence is so universally excpeted. apart from undead/occaisional construct, everyone/thing goes before him and whoever the "judge" was at given time. as for craving power, i think he is beyond that. the finality of death and it's whole concept and it's associated flavors and properties lend credence to the whole aloof dead clockmaker theory. like pop culture's theory of God during The Enlightenment. ...plus, if he leaves or falters, the immense responsiblity on his shoulders, the fallout could be catastophic. they could argue that as a pseudo post-apocalypitc faerun in some degrees; high undead, distortions of necro magic here and there, freak immortals, etc.
The_Shaman 08-13-07, 06:33 AM	It could be that Jergal's portfolio - and age - make him too reserved to care about that many things, including worshippers and power. He could, probably, cook up some long-term scheme to become vastly powerful. Or he could have really decided he does not bother. He has seen deities much more powerful than he now is fade into death and obscurity - his realm. It could be that he simply does not care about power, or considers Kelemvor a useful proxy and a figurehead. It would be interesting to think that age and portfolio sense can actually severely limit a deity, making it lose power to decide its actions just as its de jure power - and thus the scope of those actions includes. In a way, if you have been the incarnation of death too long, it leaves nothing else for you to be than an incarnation of death - no plans, no ambition, nothing. Wonderfully Nietzscheian... All in all, I like Jergal. One of my pbp chars has him as a patron deity, and it could get really fun later on. BTW, has anyone here played a paladin of Jergal? Those would probably have some weird codes.