Kanchelsis in Forgotten Realms? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Kanchelsis in Forgotten Realms? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ChaosReigns
03-28-08, 02:15 AM Is there any reference to Kanchelsis (god of blood, debauch, vampires) being a Forgotten Realms deity (rather than just a default deity)?

EDIT: I forgot to ask: is there any mention of him in 4th edition? It seems that a lot of the gods are either dying or being changed somehow.

Thanks in advance. :)
Stigger
03-28-08, 02:34 AM I presume that its a deity from Libris Mortis, so that would make it core, not Realms... however there's nothing that says you can't import him into the Realms if it suits you. As to 4e, could be, but given the deity condensing going on, I'd rather doubt it. Having said that however, there's nothing stopping you from adapting him for 4e if you want to. Nothing official, but I don't see why it would be a problem for a halfway reasonable DM to deal with.
ChaosReigns
03-28-08, 03:03 AM Okay, thanks. :)
LordMortanius
03-28-08, 03:32 AM I believe he's called Maastracht in the Realms.
Valgard
03-28-08, 04:08 AM I presume that its a deity from Libris Mortis, so that would make it core, not Realms... however there's nothing that says you can't import him into the Realms if it suits you. As to 4e, could be, but given the deity condensing going on, I'd rather doubt it. Having said that however, there's nothing stopping you from adapting him for 4e if you want to. Nothing official, but I don't see why it would be a problem for a halfway reasonable DM to deal with.Wasn't Kanchelsis included in Monster Mythology? Those deities of the dark folk weren't mentioned at all in 3rd Edition material, and I imagine they would have even less mention in 4th Edition at all.
Old Sage
03-28-08, 08:25 AM I don't immediately recall any specific reference to Kanchelsis in the Realmslore.

On Hallowed Ground and Monster Mythology remain the more detailed sources of reference.
The_Shaman
03-28-08, 12:33 PM I'm pretty sure a 2e book on monster mythology mentioned a deity of vampires, and some of the other deities were Faerunian... I'm not sure it was FR-based, though. In its absence, you could insert Kanchelsis, I suppose, although I wouldn't be surprised if he's rather a powerful undead/outsider rather than a deity - somewhat like Orcus.
Stigger
03-28-08, 04:05 PM Well, wherever he's from, if you want him in, its your game, so stick him in there anyway. ;)
Lord Karsus
03-29-08, 12:54 AM -Yes, Kanchelsis was mentioned in Monsterous Mythology. That said, he does not exercise much, if any, power in the Realms, as per canon.

-This was a topic debated (with some heat, if I recall) years and years ago.
Guardian1
03-30-08, 03:02 PM There is a web enhancement for the Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss that mentions him. Look in the section entitled The Lost Entries, then click on Additional Layers. He's in there, apparently classified as a CE vampire demigod with multiple personalities.
ripvanwormer
03-30-08, 07:44 PM Kanchelsis was created by Carl Sargent for Monstrous Mythology. He was not mentioned in Libris Mortis, but he gets a mention in Fiendish Codex I and Dragon #359.

Not every god in Monster Mythology exists in the Forgotten Realms. For example, Juiblex, the Elder Elemental God, Chronepsis, Falazure, and Nebelun the Meddler are all considered aspects of other deities in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting (Juiblex and the EGG are replaced by Ghaunadaur, Chronepsis and Falazure are aspects of Null, and Nebelun is an aspect of Gond).

It could be that some vampires of Toril revere, or at least know of, Kanchelsis, who has ties to the Seldarine and might have a foothold in Realmspace based on that. It could also be that he's considered an aspect of Malar, Cyric, or some other god of bloodlust or murder.

Monster Mythology says that Kanchelsis is known as Mastraacht "in some worlds," but does not specify which worlds these are.

I seriously doubt Kanchelsis will be part of the 4th edition core or Forgotten Realms pantheons, but we'll see. They're getting away from racial deities, so a god of vampires would seem not to fit. He hasn't been mentioned in that context yet.
Lord Karsus
03-30-08, 08:17 PM They're getting away from racial deities, so a god of vampires would seem not to fit.

-Personally, I never thought that a deity of vampires fit at all, period.
ripvanwormer
03-30-08, 10:39 PM -Personally, I never thought that a deity of vampires fit at all, period.

The reasoning I've seen for that view before is that vampires are all former members of other races and have so far as we know no unified communities in the Realms like the Camarilla in the World of Darkness, so there's little reason for them not to worship deities of their original race. For example, gnomish vampires would worship Urdlen rather than some pan-vampiric god.

However, Vampires can transmit culture between them, as most of them spend time (conceivably centuries) as thralls of older vampires. I don't find the idea of vampire religions unfitting. If some discovered a deity was connected to their 'dark gift' and willing to grant them power in exchange for worship or sacrifice, they might well pass on knowledge of him to their spawn. This religion wouldn't necessarily be shared by all vampires, but could be shared by many, whose grandsires may have discovered or been contacted by Kanchelsis separately.

But Monster Mythology didn't introduce Kanchelsis to be the subject of a vampire religion, in any case. It specifically said that Kanchelsis had no priests, and that he treated other vampires more as allies or companions than worshippers. Kanchelsis was intended, first and foremost, to be a character in an origin myth. He gained his power not from the worship of vampires, but from blood spilled by the Seldarine during the time of creation, corrupted by an unnamed evil human god. He exists as long as the Seldarine does, and requires no worship from anyone.

Since worship is required for Ao to allow a deity into Realmspace, you could argue that an unworshipped Kanchelsis has no place there. Or you could argue that he has enough veneration from vampires, passing on his faith from generation to generation, to possess at least the power of a demigod (he was an intermediate deity in 2e and in the recent issue of Dragon Magazine). Or perhaps he gets in as something of a 'package deal' with the Seldarine and conceivably whatever human deity was involved in his creation.

Regardless of whether or not Kanchelsis has any power in the Realms, he might still be part of vampiric (and elven) lore and mythology.
Lord Karsus
03-30-08, 11:50 PM I don't find the idea of vampire religions unfitting.

-I'll reword what I meant, to be a little more specific. I have no problem that a vampire, or groups of vampires, have a religion. I have no problem with the concept of "Vampirism', as in a disease, being a portfolio that a deity has. What I don't like is the concept that, as you explained, a vampire deity arises that gains the worship of vampires of all races and vampire subtypes, just because the deity in question is a vampire. I have the same criticism of all of the other "Deities of the Dark Folk" in Monster Mythology, with the exception of Cegilune, who represents an actual race on it's own(Hags). All of the others are representing a "race", that is made up of a "motley crew"- the same problem I have with Kanchelsis.
Stigger
03-31-08, 11:13 AM I think I'd tend towards LKs line of reasoning there myself really, but that's a personal preference and philosophy more than anything else.
ripvanwormer
04-01-08, 06:00 PM I'm sure personal preference has much to do with it, but I think Karsus' reasoning depends on assumptions that weren't shared by the creator of the deities in question. As I said, there was never a suggestion that all vampires - or even any vampires, necessarily - worship Kanchelsis. He has "a small circle of friends on various worlds," which the Fiendish Codex appendix associated with the Sunsebb Solidarity introduced in Dungeon Magazine. He is not, in 2nd edition, given priests or worshipers of any kind. He is a cosmic evil and a dark secret for the elven church, and a possible explanation for how vampires came to be, nothing more. The recent Dragon Magazine version of him did include the possibility of clerics and worshippers, which is fine, but is still far from making him a universal vampiric god. Drow vampires will normally worship Kiaransalee instead, gnome and halfling vampires Urdlen, dwarf vampires Abbathor, and Mulhorandi vampires will likely worship Set, and all of these cultures may have their own incompatible myths for how the first vampire came to be. And many vampires will be faithless, or worship fiends like Orcus. Your campaign might also include Evening Glory and Afflux from Libris Mortis as available options.

The Mulhorandi may believe that the first vampire resulted from Set tainting Isis's ritual that resurrected Osiris. Blasphemous sects may even believe that Osiris was the first vampire and that the mainstream Mulhorandi temples are keeping this a secret. They may worship Osiris as the god of vampires, or Set as the one responsible for Osiris's dark gift.

Faerunian sages might believe the first vampire was a Netherese fighter/wizard, or the Imaskari emperor who first led his people to forsake the gods, or the scorned first human woman who was gifted by Shar after her banishment from the first human community.

For those who accept the Kanchelsis myth, he seems to have been born of the collective blood of the Seldarine mingled with that of a human creator-god in order to maintain all the worlds. But the ritual was somehow corrupted, and Kanchelsis was created instead, born of blood to devour blood for ever and ever. The only Faerunian human creator-god whom the Seldarine seem likely to mingle their blood with on purpose is Selune, so perhaps the ritual was corrupted by Shar. That would be a good way to integrate the myth intimately with the mythology of Faerun, and it'd be hard to complain that a being born of the blood of the Seldarine and Selune, corrupted by Shar, doesn't belong in the Forgotten Realms setting.

Something else worth pointing out, however, is that the myth of Kanchelsis is at least superficially very similar to the myth of Ityak-Ortheel, who was born of the blood of Gruumsh and Corellon Larethian and controlled by Malar. One of Kanchelsis's aspects is the Beast, so the idea that he is tied to or corrupted by the blood-hungry Malar seems a strong possibility. Perhaps Kanchelsis is an aspect of Ityak-Ortheel, or its twin.

As for the other deities of the "dark folk," remember that at least in 2nd edition there was a distinction between "true" and "infected" lycanthropes. Obviously a Calimshite rogue who is randomly infected by wererats in the sewers beneath his city, transforms for the first time on the boat ride to Waterdeep, and founds a new nest there without ever becoming adopted into the culture of those who infected him isn't going to automatically worship Squerrik. But then, an elf raised by halflings isn't going to automatically worship Corellon Larethian either; that doesn't mean the idea of an elven deity is unfitting, and by the same token it doesn't mean that the idea of a deity of wererats is unfitting either. This is because there are "true" lycanthropes who are born with their condition and who might well trace their culture back thousands of years, and it is this sort of community that the gods of shapeshifters address. All weretigers don't have to worship Ferrix, but there are communities of elves who don't revere the Seldarine either.

Remember also that as least some races of shapechangers are unlikely to ever have "infected" members. The chaotic good werebears would never deliberately infect someone against their will, for example, and weretigers don't seem inclined to share their gift either, if they're even capable of doing so.

Seen from this perspective, there's no meaningful difference between the idea of therianthropic gods and, for example, elven or orcish gods. At most, there's a difference in degree - counting the infected, there may well be more wererats who have never heard of Squerrik than there are elves who have never heard of Corellon. But there is no difference in kind, and you can't reject the idea of a wererat god outright without also rejecting the idea of an elven god, using the same reasoning. There's no more indication in the book that being a werebear automatically means you worship Balador than there is that being a dwarf automatically means you worship Moradin.

In Monster Mythology, Balador and Ferrix are presented as the servants of "a great nature/druidic deity." Presumedly, in the Faerunian pantheon this would be Silvanus (Chauntea is also a possibility, but given their alignments Silvanus works a lot better, I think - Selune is another possibility, since she's a patron of lycanthropes). Their counterparts, the wicked Daragor and Eshebala, are "shadow-archetypes" who spring into being as dark echoes of Balador and Ferrix. I adore this mythology, and I don't think anyone would argue that it doesn't fit the character of Silvanus to elevate bear and tiger servants as guardians of nature, or for destructive antitheses to rise in opposition to them, or for races of shapechangers to begin revering these beings. They fit in very well with the time-honored notion of the Cults of the Beast, so various human groups might well revere them too. The only problem is that Daragor is so very similar to Malar, he might be redundant. He might work better as one of Malar's names or aspects. Daragor and Eshebala could also be present or former servants of Malar.

I do think these "dark folk" deities work better if it's assumed that their existence is fairly common knowledge. A recently infected therianthrope is unlikely to spontaneously gravitate toward Squerrik, Daragor, or Eshebala if they've never heard of them, but if they're aware that these "shadow-archetypes" exist and act to support and empower those with their particular curse, they may give praying to them a chance. They might be particularly likely to do so if they believe their former deities have abandoned them, and that the Wall of the Faithless is their destiny if they don't accept their new patrons.

As for Mellifleur, he is not presented as the first lich, the greatest lich, or the god of all liches. It isn't suggested that all or even any liches worship him. He is simply a mortal who became a lich-god, much as Velsharoon. He might, of course, be Velsharoon; he is at least the Faerunian replacement for that other lich-god. In Monster Mythology his purpose is not to give liches someone to worship (I think the only lich NPC who Carl Sargent explicitly gave a deity to was a worshipper of Erythnul), but to introduce an unlikely ally for the PCs against certain evil gods. In any case, he isn't any more unfitting than Velsharoon is.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ChaosReigns 03-28-08, 02:15 AM	Is there any reference to Kanchelsis (god of blood, debauch, vampires) being a Forgotten Realms deity (rather than just a default deity)? EDIT: I forgot to ask: is there any mention of him in 4th edition? It seems that a lot of the gods are either dying or being changed somehow. Thanks in advance. :)
Stigger 03-28-08, 02:34 AM	I presume that its a deity from Libris Mortis, so that would make it core, not Realms... however there's nothing that says you can't import him into the Realms if it suits you. As to 4e, could be, but given the deity condensing going on, I'd rather doubt it. Having said that however, there's nothing stopping you from adapting him for 4e if you want to. Nothing official, but I don't see why it would be a problem for a halfway reasonable DM to deal with.
ChaosReigns 03-28-08, 03:03 AM	Okay, thanks. :)
LordMortanius 03-28-08, 03:32 AM	I believe he's called Maastracht in the Realms.
Valgard 03-28-08, 04:08 AM	I presume that its a deity from Libris Mortis, so that would make it core, not Realms... however there's nothing that says you can't import him into the Realms if it suits you. As to 4e, could be, but given the deity condensing going on, I'd rather doubt it. Having said that however, there's nothing stopping you from adapting him for 4e if you want to. Nothing official, but I don't see why it would be a problem for a halfway reasonable DM to deal with.Wasn't Kanchelsis included in Monster Mythology? Those deities of the dark folk weren't mentioned at all in 3rd Edition material, and I imagine they would have even less mention in 4th Edition at all.
Old Sage 03-28-08, 08:25 AM	I don't immediately recall any specific reference to Kanchelsis in the Realmslore. On Hallowed Ground and Monster Mythology remain the more detailed sources of reference.
The_Shaman 03-28-08, 12:33 PM	I'm pretty sure a 2e book on monster mythology mentioned a deity of vampires, and some of the other deities were Faerunian... I'm not sure it was FR-based, though. In its absence, you could insert Kanchelsis, I suppose, although I wouldn't be surprised if he's rather a powerful undead/outsider rather than a deity - somewhat like Orcus.
Stigger 03-28-08, 04:05 PM	Well, wherever he's from, if you want him in, its your game, so stick him in there anyway. ;)
Lord Karsus 03-29-08, 12:54 AM	-Yes, Kanchelsis was mentioned in Monsterous Mythology. That said, he does not exercise much, if any, power in the Realms, as per canon. -This was a topic debated (with some heat, if I recall) years and years ago.
Guardian1 03-30-08, 03:02 PM	There is a web enhancement for the Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss that mentions him. Look in the section entitled The Lost Entries, then click on Additional Layers. He's in there, apparently classified as a CE vampire demigod with multiple personalities.
ripvanwormer 03-30-08, 07:44 PM	Kanchelsis was created by Carl Sargent for Monstrous Mythology. He was not mentioned in Libris Mortis, but he gets a mention in Fiendish Codex I and Dragon #359. Not every god in Monster Mythology exists in the Forgotten Realms. For example, Juiblex, the Elder Elemental God, Chronepsis, Falazure, and Nebelun the Meddler are all considered aspects of other deities in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting (Juiblex and the EGG are replaced by Ghaunadaur, Chronepsis and Falazure are aspects of Null, and Nebelun is an aspect of Gond). It could be that some vampires of Toril revere, or at least know of, Kanchelsis, who has ties to the Seldarine and might have a foothold in Realmspace based on that. It could also be that he's considered an aspect of Malar, Cyric, or some other god of bloodlust or murder. Monster Mythology says that Kanchelsis is known as Mastraacht "in some worlds," but does not specify which worlds these are. I seriously doubt Kanchelsis will be part of the 4th edition core or Forgotten Realms pantheons, but we'll see. They're getting away from racial deities, so a god of vampires would seem not to fit. He hasn't been mentioned in that context yet.
Lord Karsus 03-30-08, 08:17 PM	They're getting away from racial deities, so a god of vampires would seem not to fit. -Personally, I never thought that a deity of vampires fit at all, period.
ripvanwormer 03-30-08, 10:39 PM	-Personally, I never thought that a deity of vampires fit at all, period. The reasoning I've seen for that view before is that vampires are all former members of other races and have so far as we know no unified communities in the Realms like the Camarilla in the World of Darkness, so there's little reason for them not to worship deities of their original race. For example, gnomish vampires would worship Urdlen rather than some pan-vampiric god. However, Vampires can transmit culture between them, as most of them spend time (conceivably centuries) as thralls of older vampires. I don't find the idea of vampire religions unfitting. If some discovered a deity was connected to their 'dark gift' and willing to grant them power in exchange for worship or sacrifice, they might well pass on knowledge of him to their spawn. This religion wouldn't necessarily be shared by all vampires, but could be shared by many, whose grandsires may have discovered or been contacted by Kanchelsis separately. But Monster Mythology didn't introduce Kanchelsis to be the subject of a vampire religion, in any case. It specifically said that Kanchelsis had no priests, and that he treated other vampires more as allies or companions than worshippers. Kanchelsis was intended, first and foremost, to be a character in an origin myth. He gained his power not from the worship of vampires, but from blood spilled by the Seldarine during the time of creation, corrupted by an unnamed evil human god. He exists as long as the Seldarine does, and requires no worship from anyone. Since worship is required for Ao to allow a deity into Realmspace, you could argue that an unworshipped Kanchelsis has no place there. Or you could argue that he has enough veneration from vampires, passing on his faith from generation to generation, to possess at least the power of a demigod (he was an intermediate deity in 2e and in the recent issue of Dragon Magazine). Or perhaps he gets in as something of a 'package deal' with the Seldarine and conceivably whatever human deity was involved in his creation. Regardless of whether or not Kanchelsis has any power in the Realms, he might still be part of vampiric (and elven) lore and mythology.
Lord Karsus 03-30-08, 11:50 PM	I don't find the idea of vampire religions unfitting. -I'll reword what I meant, to be a little more specific. I have no problem that a vampire, or groups of vampires, have a religion. I have no problem with the concept of "Vampirism', as in a disease, being a portfolio that a deity has. What I don't like is the concept that, as you explained, a vampire deity arises that gains the worship of vampires of all races and vampire subtypes, just because the deity in question is a vampire. I have the same criticism of all of the other "Deities of the Dark Folk" in Monster Mythology, with the exception of Cegilune, who represents an actual race on it's own(Hags). All of the others are representing a "race", that is made up of a "motley crew"- the same problem I have with Kanchelsis.
Stigger 03-31-08, 11:13 AM	I think I'd tend towards LKs line of reasoning there myself really, but that's a personal preference and philosophy more than anything else.
ripvanwormer 04-01-08, 06:00 PM	I'm sure personal preference has much to do with it, but I think Karsus' reasoning depends on assumptions that weren't shared by the creator of the deities in question. As I said, there was never a suggestion that all vampires - or even any vampires, necessarily - worship Kanchelsis. He has "a small circle of friends on various worlds," which the Fiendish Codex appendix associated with the Sunsebb Solidarity introduced in Dungeon Magazine. He is not, in 2nd edition, given priests or worshipers of any kind. He is a cosmic evil and a dark secret for the elven church, and a possible explanation for how vampires came to be, nothing more. The recent Dragon Magazine version of him did include the possibility of clerics and worshippers, which is fine, but is still far from making him a universal vampiric god. Drow vampires will normally worship Kiaransalee instead, gnome and halfling vampires Urdlen, dwarf vampires Abbathor, and Mulhorandi vampires will likely worship Set, and all of these cultures may have their own incompatible myths for how the first vampire came to be. And many vampires will be faithless, or worship fiends like Orcus. Your campaign might also include Evening Glory and Afflux from Libris Mortis as available options. The Mulhorandi may believe that the first vampire resulted from Set tainting Isis's ritual that resurrected Osiris. Blasphemous sects may even believe that Osiris was the first vampire and that the mainstream Mulhorandi temples are keeping this a secret. They may worship Osiris as the god of vampires, or Set as the one responsible for Osiris's dark gift. Faerunian sages might believe the first vampire was a Netherese fighter/wizard, or the Imaskari emperor who first led his people to forsake the gods, or the scorned first human woman who was gifted by Shar after her banishment from the first human community. For those who accept the Kanchelsis myth, he seems to have been born of the collective blood of the Seldarine mingled with that of a human creator-god in order to maintain all the worlds. But the ritual was somehow corrupted, and Kanchelsis was created instead, born of blood to devour blood for ever and ever. The only Faerunian human creator-god whom the Seldarine seem likely to mingle their blood with on purpose is Selune, so perhaps the ritual was corrupted by Shar. That would be a good way to integrate the myth intimately with the mythology of Faerun, and it'd be hard to complain that a being born of the blood of the Seldarine and Selune, corrupted by Shar, doesn't belong in the Forgotten Realms setting. Something else worth pointing out, however, is that the myth of Kanchelsis is at least superficially very similar to the myth of Ityak-Ortheel, who was born of the blood of Gruumsh and Corellon Larethian and controlled by Malar. One of Kanchelsis's aspects is the Beast, so the idea that he is tied to or corrupted by the blood-hungry Malar seems a strong possibility. Perhaps Kanchelsis is an aspect of Ityak-Ortheel, or its twin. As for the other deities of the "dark folk," remember that at least in 2nd edition there was a distinction between "true" and "infected" lycanthropes. Obviously a Calimshite rogue who is randomly infected by wererats in the sewers beneath his city, transforms for the first time on the boat ride to Waterdeep, and founds a new nest there without ever becoming adopted into the culture of those who infected him isn't going to automatically worship Squerrik. But then, an elf raised by halflings isn't going to automatically worship Corellon Larethian either; that doesn't mean the idea of an elven deity is unfitting, and by the same token it doesn't mean that the idea of a deity of wererats is unfitting either. This is because there are "true" lycanthropes who are born with their condition and who might well trace their culture back thousands of years, and it is this sort of community that the gods of shapeshifters address. All weretigers don't have to worship Ferrix, but there are communities of elves who don't revere the Seldarine either. Remember also that as least some races of shapechangers are unlikely to ever have "infected" members. The chaotic good werebears would never deliberately infect someone against their will, for example, and weretigers don't seem inclined to share their gift either, if they're even capable of doing so. Seen from this perspective, there's no meaningful difference between the idea of therianthropic gods and, for example, elven or orcish gods. At most, there's a difference in degree - counting the infected, there may well be more wererats who have never heard of Squerrik than there are elves who have never heard of Corellon. But there is no difference in kind, and you can't reject the idea of a wererat god outright without also rejecting the idea of an elven god, using the same reasoning. There's no more indication in the book that being a werebear automatically means you worship Balador than there is that being a dwarf automatically means you worship Moradin. In Monster Mythology, Balador and Ferrix are presented as the servants of "a great nature/druidic deity." Presumedly, in the Faerunian pantheon this would be Silvanus (Chauntea is also a possibility, but given their alignments Silvanus works a lot better, I think - Selune is another possibility, since she's a patron of lycanthropes). Their counterparts, the wicked Daragor and Eshebala, are "shadow-archetypes" who spring into being as dark echoes of Balador and Ferrix. I adore this mythology, and I don't think anyone would argue that it doesn't fit the character of Silvanus to elevate bear and tiger servants as guardians of nature, or for destructive antitheses to rise in opposition to them, or for races of shapechangers to begin revering these beings. They fit in very well with the time-honored notion of the Cults of the Beast, so various human groups might well revere them too. The only problem is that Daragor is so very similar to Malar, he might be redundant. He might work better as one of Malar's names or aspects. Daragor and Eshebala could also be present or former servants of Malar. I do think these "dark folk" deities work better if it's assumed that their existence is fairly common knowledge. A recently infected therianthrope is unlikely to spontaneously gravitate toward Squerrik, Daragor, or Eshebala if they've never heard of them, but if they're aware that these "shadow-archetypes" exist and act to support and empower those with their particular curse, they may give praying to them a chance. They might be particularly likely to do so if they believe their former deities have abandoned them, and that the Wall of the Faithless is their destiny if they don't accept their new patrons. As for Mellifleur, he is not presented as the first lich, the greatest lich, or the god of all liches. It isn't suggested that all or even any liches worship him. He is simply a mortal who became a lich-god, much as Velsharoon. He might, of course, be Velsharoon; he is at least the Faerunian replacement for that other lich-god. In Monster Mythology his purpose is not to give liches someone to worship (I think the only lich NPC who Carl Sargent explicitly gave a deity to was a worshipper of Erythnul), but to introduce an unlikely ally for the PCs against certain evil gods. In any case, he isn't any more unfitting than Velsharoon is.