| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Lia The Sun Elf Wizard03-14-07, 05:21 PM | I just bought the fiendish codex and it stated there that Orcus is alive, though it says he was murdered and return as an undead. This murder could be Kiaransalee's deed?. In faiths and pantheons book it states that Kiaransalee seized his realm. My question is: Orcus is dead? If not, he should be VERY weak now that Kiaransalee controls his realm. What do you think and what we can assume about Orcus nowadays? (i'm asking about this cause i just did a female drow priest of Kiaransalee and my DM and i want to know cause she could make the following stories based on what it's been said in this forum, thx. |
| GothicDan03-14-07, 05:28 PM | The events were detailed exhaustively in the 2E adventure 'Dead Gods.' I'll try to keep things short. Kiaransalee slew Orcus, and hid his wand and tried to erase him from everyone's memory, and took up his realm of Thanatosis in the Abyss. Orcus's last remaining worshipper, a half-orc (Na-Mog, I think? 14th level ish?) performed a mighty ritual to resurrect him (though it's up in the air if that's actually what brought him back). But he came back as an undead shade-divine thing known as Tenebrous. Tenebrous used the Last Word (an example of the oldest and most powerful of magics in the multiverse) to slay a number of divinities that got in his way in his search for his Wand. In the end, he recovered his Wand and was made a whole, true god once more (showing that planar paragons are perhaps based more on propagation of their archetypes, symbols, and character, rather than direct amount of mortal faith given to them). I THINK he ended up kicking Kiaransalee out of Thanatos, though... If not, he should have by now. |
| Lia The Sun Elf Wizard03-14-07, 06:50 PM | BUT, if he's trying to kick her nowadays as you said, i think she would lose (she's a demigod or lesser god and it appears that Orcus now is more powerful than ever). In the faiths and pantheons it states otherwise, it says she seized his realm and now she's hunting every trace of his followers. (you said that was in the 2E, we are in the 3rd, so i think the last events is favoring kiaransalee and not otherwise. Cause obviously the 3rd edition timeline is more recent than the 2E storyline). What do you think? And if he's that powerful now it would state in any book that he's trying to seize her (he's a demon and certainly if he was more powerful, he would be thirsty for vengeance). |
| The_Shaman03-14-07, 07:15 PM | Er, I think either F&P or the FRCS/PGtF in their cosmology sections say that she's currently residing in the Pits, where she has named her demiplane Thanatos. So, yeah, she's been kicked out and kicked hard... and methinks that given that got some converts from Lloth's silence, she may want to buff up and this time finish the job. When you **** off a deity with the revenge portfolio, and don't take him out for good, chances are you'll regret it. Ask Ramman, if you can find Him. |
| Arbourean03-14-07, 08:08 PM | As of Fiendish Codex I Orcus has regained control of Thanatos from Kianransalee, who is currently hiding from him, and dwelling in Maldev, on Guldor, a world recently conquered by Lolth. There are parts of Thanatos that remain under her control, but for all intents and purposes Orcus reigns there once again. |
| Treymordin03-14-07, 08:45 PM | I read some where, I think BoVD that she had been killed by Orcus. |
| Lia The Sun Elf Wizard03-14-07, 09:05 PM | BoVD? |
| Old Sage03-14-07, 09:19 PM | Book of Vile Darkness. |
| ripvanwormer03-14-07, 09:35 PM | I read some where, I think BoVD that she had been killed by Orcus. No, she's alive and well. In the Realms, she even ascended to lesser deity status since the War of the Spider Queen, which was after Orcus returned and drove her back to the Demonweb. At the time of Orcus's resurrection, she was a demigoddess. The Book of Vile Darkness doesn't mention Kiaransalee. Orcus's last remaining worshipper, a half-orc (Na-Mog, I think? 14th level ish?) Quah-Nomag, actually. And he's a half-ogre. Book of Vile Darkness says he's a cleric 14/Thrall of Orcus 3. He's called Orcus' last priest, but the Prince of the Undead had at least one more faithful worshiper remaining - Bleeding Setch, a former proxy of Orcus described in On Hallowed Ground, page 26. |
| Lia The Sun Elf Wizard03-14-07, 11:17 PM | LOL ppl, and I thought I knew about FR's campaign. Thx for knowing that she is alive. I was almost giving up to play w/ my char (no point or no fun at all to play w/ a char which deity is dead). I just think they should give her any success (but it's good to know that she's a lesser goddess now). I'd say drow's pantheon doesn't have too many options, its a little too small to choose from. I'm a gal and i like to play w/ female deities cause it's a thing not common of seeing (ok, there are a lot of female deities, but there are even more male deities ;)). And drow's pantheon just have 3 goddess: eilistraee (eww :P, i want to be a "real" drow, if i wanted to play a good char, i'd play w/ another race), kiaransalee and the almighty goddess lolth (which i already had played a lot being a priestess of her). Last question: So the orcus' murder (stated in the fiendish codex and said by GothicDan on this topic)was really kiaransalee's work? (i'm asking this cause i became confused w/ all these answers :P). Btw, if that's true, there is no fun... she killed a demon LORD and this LORD not only came back from the dead, but he came more powerful. -_- Hope she really kills him for sure as being said she's trying in faiths and pantheons. (it might be a novel idea ;)), hehehehe. Anyway... thx for the answers guys. ;) |
| ripvanwormer03-15-07, 12:46 AM | So the orcus' murder (stated in the fiendish codex and said by GothicDan on this post)was really kiaransalee's work? Yes. She killed him dead. she killed a demon LORD and this LORD not only came back from the dead, but he came more powerful. According to Tome of Magic, Orcus was a deity before his death, but isn't anymore (the divine part of him became a visage). On the other hand, Orcus was strong enough to chase Kiaransalee out of her home. |
| Lia The Sun Elf Wizard03-15-07, 12:47 AM | Nm about my question, i just read fiendish codex (thanatos cosmology) and it was really her who killed him (lol, you posted at the same time i was posting and i'm here editing just now to put this "add-on" :P). He's trying to get his revenge and the fiendish codex states Orcus is near becoming a god. If Kiaransalee is really a lesser god now and not a demigod anymore, she has enough power to kill him while he's not a god (she has plenty of motives now that he "kicked" her from her "new home" :)). This gives a good idea for that novel book i mentioned :P. Heeheehee. Thx again guys! :) |
| Shemeska the Marauder03-15-07, 12:53 AM | If Kiaransalee is really a lesser god now and not a demigod, she can kill him while he's not a god (she has plenty of motives now that he "kicked" her from her "new home" :). Doesn't matter if he is or isn't a god at this point really. Archfiends when on their home planes, especially on a layer they hold, are operating on a level rather above that of Kiaransalee or any other god. Deities are a dime a dozen, but Orcus and the layer of Thanatos are essentially the same thing, something Kiaransalee even when she controlled the layer could neither claim nor truly understand in the same way an archfiend would. |
| Lia The Sun Elf Wizard03-15-07, 01:43 AM | Well, she killed him once and it was almost permanent (and according to the previous posts) it would be permanent if the half-ogre hadn't ressurrected him. So i think she can kill him once more and now make it permanent (MY opinion, of course, each one has their own opinions). I think these kind of things are good, each people try to root for your "bud" and help WotC sell their books (:)). And sincerely thanks for your post, it gave me another dimension in understanding a little more of the layers. |
| Zanan03-15-07, 10:16 AM | Dunno why GothicDan stopped short in his history. As Tenebrous he succumbed to the effects of the Last Word as well and after that he was again "resurrected" by his priest. So Orcus was actually "twice dead" and the last return is still shrouded in some mystery (not least the question to the designers about the "why"). You do need to make a distinction (at least these days) between Core Material and FR stuff as well. The Book of Vile Darkness as well as the Fiendish Codices give you Core information, sometimes a few hints about certain settings. For the Realms, the info of the Demihuman Deities and the Players' Guide to Faerūn is important (in that sequence), though you have to double-check on events in recent novels as well. It looks like Kia will get involved in Lady Penitent II (which I hope not). As for wordings et al. With regard to Realmspace (and Core as well these days), Orcus is no deity or god. He could rival one in power, but there is no divinity in him. Nor did he "chase" Kiaransalee out of his former realm. Nothing is known about the events there and thus, I could easily claim that she left as news reached her that Orcus was coming her way. There is no news on her ability or lack of it of ruling Thanatos either, or how he managed to get in there. In personal power, she'd whipe the floor with him ... and, obviously, she was not alone while he, well he was just resurrected and all. Way too many variables not known. |
| Shemeska the Marauder03-15-07, 12:25 PM | Dunno why GothicDan stopped short in his history. As Tenebrous he succumbed to the effects of the Last Word as well and after that he was again "resurrected" by his priest. So Orcus was actually "twice dead" and the last return is still shrouded in some mystery (not least the question to the designers about the "why"). Just to clarify: Orcus initially rose as Tenebrous as a result of the events of 'Return to the Tomb of Horrors': the demilich Acererak's meddling with Moil the City that Waits (which Orcus created) and the subsequent eruption of negative energy linked to the failure of the lich's plans. Tenebrous found and eventually was consumed by the Last Word when he failed to find his Wand that Kiaransalee had hidden. Quah-Nomag eventually managed to resurrect Orcus/Tenebrous via a ritual atop the astral godisle formed from Orcus's dead deific body. You do need to make a distinction (at least these days) between Core Material and FR stuff as well. The Book of Vile Darkness as well as the Fiendish Codices give you Core information, sometimes a few hints about certain settings. FC:I doesn't make a distinction between FR and the rest of the multiverse. Just saying. In fact the inclusion of FR is pretty explicit in the text (and from the author comments on FR's attempts at cosmology seperation). Nor did he "chase" Kiaransalee out of his former realm. Nothing is known about the events there and thus, I could easily claim that she left as news reached her that Orcus was coming her way. There is no news on her ability or lack of it of ruling Thanatos either, or how he managed to get in there. In personal power, she'd whipe the floor with him ... and, obviously, she was not alone while he, well he was just resurrected and all. Way too many variables not known. Kiaransalee fled, and in her shoes I would too. When you go to the lengths she did to erase him from the planes and suddenly you find out after a few eons that he's back and ticked off, and left a string of gods dead in his wake... you'd flee in abject terror regardless of if you knew the full story behind his return or not. My statements about Kia's ability to rule Thanatos is based on her being a deity rather than an Abyssal Lord bound in symbiosis with the layer; the distinction is important in many respects, especially at larger scales. And actually it's a pity that some material I wrote in the section on Moil in Dragon got trimmed for space, because it would have elaborated on the current situation between Kia and Orcus a bit. |
| Zanan03-16-07, 06:54 AM | See Shem, I was just poking one of the lorekeepers on anything-Orcus into writing the history in full ;) As for FC I ... you are correct. I was actually thinking of the Lolth-touched creatures as presented in MM IV. My bad ... though as by current events it is obvious that FR stuff and Core Planar info are not going along the same route in every aspect ... at least with regard to the drow pantheon. In-setting, the death and rise of Orcus was no aeon-stretching event, BTW. FR-wise, the death of Zhengyi and the shattering of the wand etc. was just a few decades ago (Dragonsbane et al). Anyway ... methinks the circumstances about his latest return and his deeds after the resurrection are not known officially, are they? I mean, god-killings et all was something he did while being Orcus I & Tenebrous, right? (On a sidenote, somehow his deeds remind me of the scimitar-wielder. Not only that he's been hiding and all, sneaking about on the edge of existence. But he's got a couple of mighty Abyssal Lords (Demogorgon and Graz'zt (FC I)) as well as Kia and her kin on his trail - yet still makes a comeback. And I for one cannot believe that he is oh-so cunning ... BTW, what material on Moil do you refer to? Which Dragon? Feel free to PM me about that "situation" in the Core World. |
| Green Elven Vampire03-16-07, 07:11 AM | Kiaransalee would most likely kick his Tannar'ri arse again if it came to full divine blows!! |
| QuenthelsChampion03-16-07, 01:13 PM | Kia might have the ability to destroy Orcus now but in the new series Lady Penitent all the drow gods are well..***()SP)(***going to die including Kia who should be in the next book this august i think.***()SP()*** Orcus kicked Kia out of his realm and she is far too busy dealing with Lolth atm and her new status as a lesser diety to pull her full attention to Orcus. that's my take atleast. |
| ripvanwormer04-11-07, 05:58 PM | Nor did he "chase" Kiaransalee out of his former realm. Nothing is known about the events there and thus, I could easily claim that she left as news reached her that Orcus was coming her way. We know there was a conflict of some kind between them, and she lost. "The Vengeful Banshee feels at home among the ghosts and howling spirits of the anguished fallen heroes who died in utter defeat, viewing the haunted realm [of Kandelspire, on the world of Guldor] as an appropriate redoubt in which to regain her strength and prestige after her humiliating defeat at the hands of Orcus over rulership of the 113th layer of the Abyss." - Fiendish Codex I, page 125. The exact nature of this "defeat" isn't explained - whether it was an physical contest of magic or armies or merely a contest of wills between Orcus, Kiaransalee, and the Abyss itself, or whether they just played a few hands of blackjack - but I don't think Kiaransalee simply left without a fight. She didn't leave proudly, her head held high - she was humiliated, defeated, punished. |
| Zanan04-12-07, 06:27 AM | "The Vengeful Banshee feels at home among the ghosts and howling spirits of the anguished fallen heroes who died in utter defeat, viewing the haunted realm [of Kandelspire, on the world of Guldor] as an appropriate redoubt in which to regain her strength and prestige after her humiliating defeat at the hands of Orcus over rulership of the 113th layer of the Abyss." - Fiendish Codex I, page 125. The exact nature of this "defeat" isn't explained - whether it was an physical contest of magic or armies or merely a contest of wills between Orcus, Kiaransalee, and the Abyss itself, or whether they just played a few hands of blackjack - but I don't think Kiaransalee simply left without a fight. She didn't leave proudly, her head held high - she was humiliated, defeated, punished. Bold is what we know, underlined is what you assume. No-one punished her. |
| GothicDan04-12-07, 11:45 AM | I don't know; inflicting humiliation on someone could very well be defined as a form of punishment. Since the bold part that Zanan pointed out contains both the words 'defeat' and 'humiliating,' I think what Rip said is absolutely correct. It's simple semantics. |
| Zanan04-12-07, 11:58 AM | I don't know; inflicting humiliation on someone could very well be defined as a form of punishment. Since the bold part that Zanan pointed out contains both the words 'defeat' and 'humiliating,' I think what Rip said is absolutely correct. It's simple semantics. You can define it as much as you like, but it wasn't written in the source. And do keep in mind that with regards to Kiaransalee, I have the LAST WORD! :teach: ... ( :rant:) ... :hides: |
| GothicDan04-12-07, 12:18 PM | You're right. The source wrote that she experienced a humiliating defeat. ;) EDIT: Spending time writing Muon and X-ray Diffraction labs has made me forget English! |
| Exploit04-12-07, 02:24 PM | Just curious has anyone tied in the events of the City of the Spider Queen module to Kiaransalee's rise to lesser god in their campaign or to her being kicked out of Orcus's plane? |
| Mirtek04-12-07, 03:40 PM | Well, she rose to become a lesser goddess after she was kicked out of Thanatos. If she had become a lesser goddess earlier, it could be that Orcus would not have been able to kick her out and she would still be ruling there while Orcus would need to finde a new realm. |
| Shemeska the Marauder04-12-07, 04:14 PM | Kiaransalee's rise to lesser godhood might only be with respect to her divine presence on Toril. In the multiverse at large, out on the planes she might not have gone up in power to the same degree, and might have overall suffered as a result of being unceremoniously ejected from Thanatos. We don't necessarily know at the moment (though I'm cool with her defeat by Orcus pushing her bitterness over the edge and pushing her to gain power at the expense of the other drow gods, primarily lolth, in an attempt to garner more power to both protect herself and to, in the future, take the first steps of revenge against Orcus). And that was a long string of words there. |
| ripvanwormer04-12-07, 05:26 PM | She was still classified as a demigoddess as of Dragon #298's article on the Vault of the Drow. She was able to advance to lesser goddess status due to Lolth's silence, and it's questionable whether that happened on any other world. I'm inclined to think it did, but it's an issue where it's very difficult to reconcile the Great Tree cosmology with the Great Wheel. |
| Zanan04-13-07, 03:49 AM | She was still classified as a demigoddess as of Dragon #298's article on the Vault of the Drow. She was able to advance to lesser goddess status due to Lolth's silence, and it's questionable whether that happened on any other world. I'm inclined to think it did, but it's an issue where it's very difficult to reconcile the Great Tree cosmology with the Great Wheel. Do note that a) that Dragon was out before CotSQ and b ) that it was 100% Greyhawk-related. What happens there is of no concern to events on Toril, her status there, et al. As for the return of Orcus and the FR cosmology ... even in Faiths & Pantheons here "home plane"is given as the Demonweb and thus one could expect that the return of Orcus happened before the Silence. She gathered in new worshippers during this event, rose to lesser deity status because of that, yet still lives in her FR-Demonweb section of Lolth's plane. |
| TheCrescentSpider04-13-07, 04:21 PM | I just bought the fiendish codex and it stated there that Orcus is alive, though it says he was murdered and return as an undead. This murder could be Kiaransalee's deed?. In faiths and pantheons book it states that Kiaransalee seized his realm. My question is: Orcus is dead? If not, he should be VERY weak now that Kiaransalee controls his realm. What do you think and what we can assume about Orcus nowadays? (i'm asking about this cause i just did a female drow priest of Kiaransalee and my DM and i want to know cause she could make the following stories based on what it's been said in this forum, thx. it also says that he assumed the role of Tenebrous and then got his realm back. Kiarlansee retreated back to her realm. Tenebrous was an undead demon (dont know how that worked) |
| Zanan04-14-07, 04:30 AM | it also says that he assumed the role of Tenebrous and then got his realm back. Kiarlansee retreated back to her realm. Tenebrous was an undead demon (dont know how that worked) Well, that is the short version. There have been umpteen threads on this ... and methinks the story has already been retold hereabouts too. HE was killed by Kiaransalee while being Orcus (I.). He returned as the undead Tenebrous, but fell to the powers of the Last Word while trying to reclaim his power (that was Orcus II: ). He then was resurrected again by some ritual to return once more (now it gets boring, right?) and now he returned to his home plane again (the actual circumstances a bit shaded, to say the least) and once Kiaransalee heard of this, she bolted back to her realm / to her Demonweb abode (FR-wise). Obviously, she was taken aback (much like myself) at the sheer persistence of goat-head (or the Wizards' in resurrecting this utterly unneccessary chap) and didn't want to spend any more of her ressources ... |
| GothicDan04-14-07, 06:49 AM | If anything, Kiaransalee is unnecessary. She may be one of my favorite Drow deities, but I really think Orcus has more tradition and history with the Realms and D&D in general than Kiaransalee does. And I'm not even a fan of Orcus, so one really can't call me biased in that. (I prefer NE/LE death/undeath deities.) |
| Zanan04-14-07, 08:21 AM | Unnecessary? Why? ... There are dozens of demon lords and arch devils which are more interesting than a goathead not interested in undead. And there are far too many other unecessary deities around before Kia should get a chop. Essentially, she being less chaotic (in known behaviour) than Lolth, less simple minded (aims et al) than Vhaeraun, Selvetarm and Eilistraee put together, she alongside the non-drow deity Ghaunadaur, make for a deeper evil in drow society, given her portfolio of necromancy and vengeance. And many players will have less problem associating themselves with undead than spiders and all too dominant female priestesses. Just MHO, of course. Having read FC I, I found quite a number of far more interesting names in there, such a Malcanthet, Shaktari, Rhyxali or Lynkhab. So many stories untold ... |
| GothicDan04-14-07, 11:26 PM | Because Drow were made originally for Lolth. So, almost by definition, all of the other deities are unnecessary. And part of what makes Orcus unique is that he IS 'Lord of the Undead,' and doesn't actually like the Undead much at all. Again, not my favorite Abyssal Lord by far, but I'd almost definitely drop him over Kiaransalee if it came down to 'who was more integral in the multiverse,' even though I like them about equally in the long run. (Both much more than Lolth.) |
| The Ubbergeek04-15-07, 12:27 PM | There is a lot of reducdance in the real world believes and religions at times... So, if Garagos can still exist, I guess there is levy there. |
| Zanan04-15-07, 06:34 PM | Because Drow were made originally for Lolth. So, almost by definition, all of the other deities are unnecessary. Heck, wouldn't this mean that we only need Corellon, Moradin, a halfling and a gnome deity ... and have to chuck about 150 human deities too? Nay. That would be like the tabula rasa the Christian church initiated after it climed to power. |
| GothicDan04-15-07, 06:42 PM | Yup. That's all we "need." |
| jwanderer504-16-07, 12:56 AM | I believe that it was just this last April in Dragon, it says that Orcus or Tenebrous, can't remember exactly which, destroyed Primus (god and leader of the Modrons) using his control over them to find his wand. My speculation as to why Kiranselee lost her second round match up, is that when she first confronted Orcus, she had already dispossed of his wand which seems to be integral to Orcus' power. Second time he had his wand and so at full power. Even though she is the goddess of vengence, I've never really seen Kiransalee as a very brave diety, more likely to flee a threat and grumble about it afterwards. In this way she continues her need for revenge, by creating/allowing situations to happen so that she can have enemies. |
| Zanan04-16-07, 09:19 AM | Yup. That's all we "need." No ... that's all "you" need. Obviously a monotheistic-tainted view. I rather go by the images the Celts, Greeks and Romans had of the divine world. And thank Ed for agreeing! |
| GothicDan04-16-07, 09:31 AM | Monotheistic-tainted? I'm an atheist who was pagan for most of his adult and pre-adult life. By "need" I mean NEED. Not want or prefer. Just like you think that we don't NEED Orcus. I like large, diverse, often redundant pantheons, full of local demigods and deities with overlapping portfolios. Thus, there's plenty of room for Orcus in the land in which you talk. Yet you say he's "unnecessary"... I'd call hypocrisy if I didn't love you so much! ;) |
| Zanan04-16-07, 03:26 PM | Monotheistic-tainted? I'm an atheist who was pagan for most of his adult and pre-adult life. Well, then it is obviously not a monotheistic-tainted view ... though it looks like one. By "need" I mean NEED. Not want or prefer. Just like you think that we don't NEED Orcus. We do not need another Orcus as he has been killed twice already, has dozens of other deities or Abyssal Lords who could step in and is, IMHO, not even that great an Abyssal Lord either. Why was there any need to have him back that often when others got killed and did stay dead? Not to mention that a deity had taken up his place as well ... whatever your opinion about her is. I like large, diverse, often redundant pantheons, full of local demigods and deities with overlapping portfolios. Thus, there's plenty of room for Orcus in the land in which you talk. Yet you say he's "unnecessary"... I'd call hypocrisy if I didn't love you so much! ;) See above. There could have been and should have been enough deities and Abyssal Lords (or at least some attempting to be somesuch) instead of one who gets killed and rises out of the ashes and reappears in full force straight away and all that. One wonders how many of the "dead" or "semi-dead" FR deities would come rushing back in such circumstances? Oh wonder, just one, Bane. And only because there essentially was a deity holding apparently quite a bit of his essence ready for just that event, the one with the rather Planescapish name. The rest of the dead deities stay dead - to a large extend (Servant of the Fallen feat and all that) - especially if there are deities keeping their place. Yet, enter non-deity Orcus the Twice Killed ... no hypocrisy involved whatsoever. Just :nonono: |
| GothicDan04-16-07, 03:42 PM | So - again. When you say 'need' you mean what you prefer. :) Need implies that there is a universal NEED, for everyone, as you pointed out previously. Not need based upon your personal preferences in response to the events that transpired. The fact that Orcus was first and foremost an Abyssal Lord as well as a deity means that he should not be compared to Prime-based deities, any more than you should compare a Balor (who can return from the dead if slain out of Baator) to a dragon. Both are of equitable power, but of inherently different nature. |
| Zanan04-16-07, 04:02 PM | Nay GD, but right now I am not willing nor have the time to endulge in word-mongering et al. |
| Echo_that_Pains04-16-07, 04:30 PM | Kiran has always been my favorite FR diety - so regardless if she dies or not in the future I think she will always remain alive and active in my games. Besides, if she gets killed off, who will my drow dread necromancer worship - Eilistraee? :pbbbtt: I as well have been trying to find more information about her besides the little snippet located in the F&P entry. So far (thanks to this thread) I have discovered more about her in the FC1. I have been trying to locate some of the other sources mentioned previously but have thus far been unable to. |
| GothicDan04-16-07, 05:56 PM | Nay GD, but right now I am not willing nor have the time to endulge in word-mongering et al. You actually initiated that particular line of thought. You specifically asked: "Heck, wouldn't this mean that we only need Corellon, Moradin, a halfling and a gnome deity ... and have to chuck about 150 human deities too? Nay. That would be like the tabula rasa the Christian church initiated after it climed to power." And I said "Yes." Then you brought up the little tidbits about pronoun use ("us" versus "you"). So, we're both at fault, if anything! |
| Zanan04-17-07, 04:17 AM | You actually initiated that particular line of thought. You specifically asked: "Heck, wouldn't this mean that we only need Corellon, Moradin, a halfling and a gnome deity ... and have to chuck about 150 human deities too? Nay. That would be like the tabula rasa the Christian church initiated after it climed to power." And I said "Yes." Then you brought up the little tidbits about pronoun use ("us" versus "you"). So, we're both at fault, if anything! No question of fault, but a question of "right now", or rather "right then" ... for it was late and I didn't nor do exactly want to debate for debate's sake. IMHO, one would only argue for monotheistic racial deities if one has a deep monotheistic background, or like things simple. Some may like the idea of a one-for-all deity, but as history as well as the Realms have shown us, there is much more "fun" (again, MHO) if you have lots of deities covering different aspects of life (etc.). And the "need" (or rather lack of it) with regard to Orcus returns has been clearly spelt out, methinks. |
| Stigger04-17-07, 04:23 AM | I think his point was more along the lines that you only technically need one for each race, the creator deity of the race as it were, for the setting to actually work. I didn't get the impression he thought it was necessarily a good idea, just a point of technicality. Dan seems kinda fond of those points of technicality for some reason... And as a point of order, the Catholics didn't tabula rasa the various pagan deities, it co-opted them as saints and the like, just like it did for feast days. Subtle nuanced difference there. ;) |
| GothicDan04-17-07, 08:38 AM | Thank you, Stigger. Zanan posited a question to me, and I answered it in the context in which it was asked, NOT according to my personal preference! "Need" implies a lack of personal preference; something that is desired without any actual opinion, an external motivation as opposed to an internal one. Of course, maybe I'm harping on this because I recently attended a philosophical seminar having to deal with things like need, want, boredom, happiness, contentment, etc. The modern Western world wouldn't have functioned very long without people like me that liked "technicalities." All of science is founded on proper, empirical nomenclature. |
| Stigger04-17-07, 08:43 AM | And fueled by political winds... kinda hard to seperate politics from science. Its much like art that way. The methods are empirical, but the motivations behind the funding are often anything but. ;) |
| GothicDan04-17-07, 06:33 PM | So you're talking about economics, not science. |
| Stigger04-17-07, 09:10 PM | Nope, because people tend to go where the money does, and that affects what people tend to major in, and that affects what is researched... It's all pretty inter-related in a lot of ways. |
| Shemeska the Marauder04-17-07, 09:22 PM | Nope, because people tend to go where the money does, and that affects what people tend to major in, and that affects what is researched... *rolling in the biodefense $$$*:cheer: |
| GothicDan04-17-07, 09:30 PM | Nope, because people tend to go where the money does, and that affects what people tend to major in, and that affects what is researched... It's all pretty inter-related in a lot of ways. So, again, the core is economics. Wanting to gain money is economics; how you do it is up to you, and not a direct characteristic of the actual field itself. The various science fields themselves do not deal in any way with money. And believe me, you don't go into physics if you want money. You go into bio or bio-chem. ;) Though some people consider economics a 'soft science,' so I'll change my opinion to 'hard sciences.' :) |
| Stigger04-17-07, 09:33 PM | Read Freakonomics... everything (virtually) boils down to economics at some point. Makes a very good case for that notion. ;) |
| GothicDan04-17-07, 09:41 PM | I'm glad I'm not the only person who feels that way, then. :) I mean, as far as society goes. But I'm not talking of society; rather, I'm speaking on science itself, as a topic, not how it interacts with society (which is actually a definition I've seen to describe science-fiction writing). |
| Stigger04-17-07, 09:44 PM | Amateur sociology buff here... everything for me boils down to how it interacts with society, since its society that defines things ultimately. Different ways of looking at things I guess. :) |
| GothicDan04-17-07, 10:48 PM | And society has defined science to not deal with society... Can God create a rock that he can't lift? ;) (Neurology and psychology here; I consider sociology to largely be 'macro-psychology.') |
| Stigger04-18-07, 01:33 AM | And yet society keeps stepping all over science... though the arguement is getting a bit circular. All depends on how you look at it. Pure science, not taking anything other than "a man and his microscope" into account, should be, ideally, empirical and free of outside influence. Not sure how often that's actually true, particularly when it comes to interpreting and applying it, but that's beside the point I guess. :) |
| Zanan04-18-07, 04:04 AM | :nonono: ... see, that is exactly what I meant. GD knew full well what I was implying in the first place and then he sets off on some word-mongering and even gets his advocate. Where's the keep-the-topic-clean chap/lass with his/her/its large scythe when you need him/her/it? :rant: |
| Stigger04-18-07, 09:43 AM | Sorry Zanan... I just like arguing, gets worse when I don't feel good. I get semi-belligerent when I'm sick... |
| GothicDan04-18-07, 08:46 PM | GD knew full well what I was implying in the first place I did? No? You said 'need' and you said 'we.' I wanted to make it clear what YOU feel is necessary is not the same for all of us, is all. You were making it out like it was a hands-down discussion that hardly needed to be made, rather than something that was actually purely based on opinion. |
| Zanan04-19-07, 04:27 AM | So I take it that you did not get what I was implying. Fair enough. I am still not in the mood to debate for debate's sake, especially if it revolves around the meaning or interpretation of words rather than FR stuff. |
| PharaunMizzrym04-21-07, 08:39 PM | What I find interesting is that Kia was a deity with a lair in the abyss in the FR Cosmology. Perhaps after Orcus came back AO pulled her aside and told her to move out of the abyss or be relieved of her divinity. |
| XHereticX04-21-07, 09:13 PM | Bah, hearing the whole dead gods thing most likely made Kia **** her pants and knowing what was good for her she ran away. |
| PharaunMizzrym04-21-07, 09:17 PM | She is a lich goddess, I doubt its physically possible for her to **** her pants. |
| XHereticX04-21-07, 09:20 PM | She is a lich goddess, I doubt its physically possible for her to **** her pants. Thats not the point:P The point is that if she faced Orcus on his home plane she would most likely lose. |
| Zanan04-23-07, 03:47 AM | Thats not the point:P The point is that if she faced Orcus on his home plane she would most likely lose. I assume you've seen his stats? She'd blast him before he's even seen her - home soil or not. Obviously, she'd never be so foolish and go into melee, no decent necromancer / death priestess would. As for the rest, being a decent enough caster and a deity, she can assume nigh any form she wishes - whether she's undead or not. |
| Shemeska the Marauder04-23-07, 07:09 AM | I assume you've seen his stats? She'd blast him before he's even seen her - home soil or not. Obviously, she'd never be so foolish and go into melee, no decent necromancer / death priestess would. At this point the archfiends don't have an upper bound for their stats. All we have are aspects/avatars, not stats for their true forms, so no, none of us have seen his stats. ;) |
| Zireael04-23-07, 07:20 AM | I think Kiaran could have killed or banished him some time ago, but he returned. And remember that in 2 ed. the demons (or outsiders) couldn't be killed anywhere out of home plane. So let's assume that he's killed, and returns after X years, or something.... And now Kiaran can kill him again and take Thanatos for herself. :D |
| Zanan04-23-07, 12:41 PM | At this point the archfiends don't have an upper bound for their stats. All we have are aspects/avatars, not stats for their true forms, so no, none of us have seen his stats. ;) Shem ... you have seen the CotSQ web-enhancement stats of Kiaransalee as well as Orcus' in the Book of Vile Darkness, have you not?. So officially, we would have something goddish to "play" with. Thank the Wizards for returning to the ways of the Faiths & Avatars series and these aspects (and hopefully avatars for deities) as listed in the FC II though. Gods need no stats. Archfiends, well ... not all. |
| Aseran04-23-07, 02:01 PM | just to point something out here--Tenebrous' quest to retrieve the Wand of Orcus (and reconstitute himself as Orcus) was all detailed in 2nd Edition Planescape adventure modules--The Great Modron March and Dead Gods. His resurrection is by no means at all a 3rd-Edition retcon. The climactic event of Dead Gods had the players confronting Quah-Namog on the Astral as he used the Wand as a focus to cast the Resurrect spell that would restore Orcus to his full power. As things happened, the players could either fail utterly, succeed fully (exceedingly difficult) or succeed partially, which I believe is the 'official' explanation--Quah-Namog was defeated (if not slain) but Orcus was resurrected, however, he was weakened, and lost his status as a true diety, reverting to becoming just a demon prince again. This is how he is portrayed in current material. Apparently Tenebrous, his undead form, still exists out there somewhere as a Vestige of Orcus' godhood, but this hasn't really been touched upon extensively. As for Kiaransalee, she was kicked out of Thanatos by Orcus himself, though apparently she still put up a fight (some more details on this confrontation would be great). She's now licking her wounds in the Demonweb Pits, but that isn't to say she doesn't retain power. The events of Lolth's Silence actually had her gain a bit, but she's obviously in no shape still to confront Orcus again. And hey, don't say Orcus is unnecessary. He's as fun a Demon Prince as any to have as an antagonist in any campaign, it all depends on how you choose to use him. |
| Khaelieth04-23-07, 03:37 PM | Don't diss the horny undead demon prince. Word. |