Post/Author/DateTime	Post
varyar 05-19-07, 08:27 PM	Aside from the vague reference in Faiths and Pantheons, has WotC published anything about this? My own crazy pet theory is that the Deliverance is when Lathander ushers his three demigod children into the Realms - one fathered each with Lliira, Chauntea and Selūne to watch over the dawn, highsun and dusk. (Gray Richardson's theory about the origin of Auril in the other thread just inspired me to add a side plot about Lathander trying to redeem some of the more powerful fallen & evil deities of the Realms such as Auril and maybe even Shar. Yes, it's a bit ambitious.)
The Ubbergeek 05-19-07, 08:45 PM	At least, it would not be too bad for the world - no destruction event. Or so I figure. Just more gods...
Old Sage 05-19-07, 09:06 PM	We currently don't know enough about what Lathander's plans are surrounding "the Deliverance", so it's difficult to say. We have only the initial bits Erik Mona wrote into F&P and that's about it. Though, I know Eric L Boyd really likes the idea, and that he's been playing with Lathander's "evolution" ever since.
The Ubbergeek 05-19-07, 09:49 PM	It could always be the 'heretical' change into the mid-day sun aspect....
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 11:31 PM	-That zany Lathander, with his schemes...:nonono: -Well, knowing Lathander, the "Deliverance" will surely paint him in a good light...:rimshot:
GothicDan 05-19-07, 11:39 PM	I wouldn't mind seeing Lathander pick up a few of Amaunator's old portfolios, and make a little shift towards Law. Like, NG with Lawful tendencies, or LN with Good tendencies.
Meldread 05-20-07, 12:00 AM	I have a pet theory that I developed after a discussion I had with Gray on these forums. To understand it, you first have to understand how Gray painted the Dawn Cataclysm. And for the record - I think Gray was spot on in his idea. The Dawn Cataclysm was not so much Lathander's doing as an inevitable event which Lathander knew would happen, and that he attempted to take advantage of for the benefit of all people on Faerun. It began after the fall of Netheril and the other major human empires, at a time when there was a period of migration and cross-cultural pollination. You see at one point in time there used to be a number of Human Pantheons, similar to the Mulhorandi Pantheon. As humans began to migrate into each others culture, the spheres of influence of those deities began to intersect and cause conflict. Lathander saw this and attempted to take advantage of this conflict to mold the "uber" pantheon - what is now known as the Faerunian Pantheon - in his image (to which he believed would be to the benefit of all). As we know he failed, at least in part, and blames his failure on Shar. Now, Lathander is looking ahead once again - seeing the potential for the Mulhorandi Pantheon to begin to intersect with the Faerunian Uber Pantheon. His Deliverance is predicated on the same notions as before to attempt to bring about an outcome that is beneficial to the people of Faerun. He knows what is coming and as such, he is allowing the heresy of Amaunator to flourish because he sees Horus-Re as a potential threat to his portfolios. He may be planning to either subsume, subvert or force Horus-Re into service all in an attempt to be at the height of his power when the two pantheons eventually (and they will) come into conflict.
PharaunMizzrym 05-20-07, 02:03 AM	Lathander could defeat Horus-Re and use his divine spark to create Amaunator as a separate deity, or aspect, of Lathander. While Amaunator is believed to have been Lathander, Lathander may seek to make the two into two separate deities. Lathander would be taking a page out of The World Serpent's book.
Meldread 05-20-07, 07:32 AM	Lathander and Amaunator were never the same deity, although many people in Faerun believe that to be the case. The reality is that Amaunator was a completely separate deity in a different Pantheon (Netherese) who did nothing to save Netheril. After Netheril collapsed many lost faith in Amaunator and he eventually (very slowly) died. His corpse is floating around in the Astral Plane. However, death for deities is not the same as death for mortals - it is never a "sure" thing. Amaunator can be reborn through Lathander and I think that is exactly what is going to happen. Lathander's goal in the Deliverance (in my opinion) is to get a jump on everyone else and bring about a change in the Faerunian Uber Pantheon toward good. It won't be on the same scale as the Dawn Cataclysm, but I do think the result will be just as chaotic and deadly as the first. I can imagine Lathander subsuming the divine essence of Horus-Re, as he begins to ascend as Amaunator in a sense... being reborn as a greatly empowered deity that may call itself Amaunator. It might carry the "soul" of Lathander, but may have a different personality - taking a shift toward Lawful Good. ------------------------- Now, all of the above is just speculation and opinion. However, if it is correct here is how I would prefer for it to all turn out. Lathander will wait until the right moment as events begin to unfold in the Old Empires, but specifically Unther as the Mulhorandi faith begins to grow there. Lathander will later justify this strike at Horus-Re by claiming that he entered into his sphere of influence due to his claims to the rights of Amaunator's portfolios. His strike would be successful, nearly destroying Horus-Re by taking in most of his divine essence. Badly weakened by the assault Horus-Re will attempt to retreat and will fall silent, not having the ability to grant spells to his priests. Lathander will also fall silent for a time, similar to Lolth during her silence; he has retreated to grow in power. During this absence, the divine essence of Amaunator will fully merged into Lathander as well as most of the divine essence of Horus-Re, together forming a new deity with the "soul" of Lathander. During Lathander's silence, other deities will begin to take notice at what is going on. He's already briefed certain deities (Mystra and Chauntea among them) on what is about to take place. However, Shar will have taken notice and taken advantage of the time of silence. Approaching Set, she will offer him a deal that he will find hard to refuse. By this time, Set will have successfully and fully destroyed and subsumed Sseth into himself. To understand what is about to happen, you have to look at things from Set's angle. He's been kicked out of Mulhorand by his pantheon putting him in a dangerous position. Bane, Cyric and Talos are looking at him and saying, "Look, look he's in our sphere of influence let's kill him and take his power!" He wants revenge on Horus-Re for defeating and casting him out. Therefore, Set needs two things that Shar can deliver to him: protection and vengeance. In exchange for both of those, Set allies with Shar, and in exchange for this allegiance Shar gives Set access to the Shadow Weave. This is done for two reasons: First, Set is a deity of evil magic and thus is susceptible to embracing such a thing, and secondly (and primarily) because it binds Set to her in such a way that is... well... permanent. Set is forced into this agreement not only because Shar is persuasive in her arguments, but also because to do otherwise will result in his ultimate demise as the oncoming war approaches. After this Shar approaches Hoar offering him a similar deal: a chance to strike back at Anhur by killing a weakened Horus-Re. Shar aids Hoar on making it to the domain of Horus-Re to slay him, only to in turn be slain by Set who has already killed him. This will make Set the undisputed deity of vengeance. This is what Shar wanted Hoar to become, but was unsuccessful in persuading him into. Set and Shar will begin plotting in secret just as Lathander begins to emerge from his silence. He will call himself Amaunator, but also proclaim to be Lathander and Horus-Re. He will grant spells to the church of Horus-Re and his old Lathanderan Church, effectively uniting them both under his rulership. Set will also be granting spells in Hoar's name and reorganizing the priesthood in the process. The above will only be the beginning of the Deliverance, the first shots fired if you will. The next phase of Lathander’s plan will be to approach both the Mulhorandi Pantheon, his allies and potential allies in the Faerunian Pantheon and warn them of what is going to happen. Of note from the Faerunian Pantheon will be Siamorphe who is in a precarious position in the upcoming war of the deities, especially considering the portfolios Lathander/Amaunator now hold. In exchange for loyalty and service, he would willingly pass on some of his portfolios to her as well as protection, to which she will agree. Lathander/Amaunator will also approach individuals in the Mulhorandi Pantheon to prepare them for what is about to take place. Unknown to them all is the alliance Set has with Shar, and it will ultimately be Shar, like during the Dawn Cataclysm, who dooms the Deliverance. First of the Mulhorandi Pantheon to die will be Osiris, slain at the hands of Set once again. At the same time, Thoth will also be slain by Shar for attempting to subvert her dominion over secrets. The death of Osiris sends shockwaves of fear through the Mulhorandi Pantheon as Amaunator explains what is about to take place. None know that Thoth is dead and that Shar is cleverly impersonating him. Mask happens to learn of Set's plan to slay Nephthys through a clever manipulation of Sebek. He uses this to his advantage to travel to the location Nephthys has been lured and killing her and framing Sebek for her murder. As a result of this Amaunator and the other Mulhorandi Pantheon deities finally banish Sebek as they did Set. Malar uses this opportunity to begin a great hunt to slay Sebek, and is eventually successful in slaying him. No one really cares or notices Sebek's demise. This is primarily due to Talos attacking both Isis and Hathor who are alone together as Amaunator attempts to find and destroy Set. They attempt to hold him off as long as they can, but are ultimately failing. As a last resort, they combine themselves into a single deity hoping that their combined power would be enough to defeat Talos. It is enough to force him to a retreat, but not until he has delivered powerful and devastating blows that nearly destroy the deity. Amaunator returns in time to save the merged deity, and does so by allowing some of his divine essence to flow into her. The newly merged deity takes on the name Hathor, and goes silent for a time, retreating from the conflict and to fully merge itself properly. Hathor is a merge between the old Hathor, Isis and Lathander containing personality traits from all three. Before going silent, she passes on her dominion over weather to Chauntea at the suggestion of Amaunator, who she hopes will have a better chance of defending it against the rage of Talos. Anhur attempts to lure Set into battle on an open field, but instead finds Tempus waiting for him and the two deities do battle. Set cleverly directs Garagos toward the battle and at the height of conflict; Set releases the insane deity onto the other two war gods. Garagos slays Anhur who was losing and fatally wounds Tempus before he is killed. As Tempus dies, he passes on his divine power to Red Knight. Chauntea takes Anhur's dominion over rain and thunder to protect it from Talos. On the Faerunian pantheon side of things, Set runs into Bane as he is dodging Amaunator's pursuit. They enter into battle and Set slays Bane and with the aid of Shar covers up the death. Velsharoon, believing that he has the ability to cash in on the chaos he approaches Shar and they work out a mutual agreement. Velsharoon informs them of Amaunator's plans and activities through his connections with Mystra. First, he informs them of Amaunator and Tyr's plan to try to trap and kill Set. Using this knowledge to their advantage Shar and Set formulate a plan to lure Tyr into battle against who he believes is Bane. It is successful and Set - posing as Bane defeats Tyr. Second, he informs them of Mystra's plan to kill Cyric and Set both by setting them against one other through using Velsharoon. Velsharoon approaches Cyric and attempts to convince him that together they can defeat Set. Cyric believes this and heads off with Velsharoon to fight Set. Velsharoon, Shar and Set plan to slay Cyric and then kill Mystra as she appears to finish off a weakened victor. Mask learns of this plan and warns Mystra of Velsharoon's betrayal. To salvage the plan Mystra sends Mask in her place believing that he can get there undetected and with the promise that she will aid him in escape. As Cyric enters into battle with Set Velsharoon turns on Cyric as well. Shar lays in the darkness waiting for Mystra. However, as Cyric begins to lose Mask appears and delivers a fatal blow, taking revenge upon Cyric. Mystra keeps her end of the deal and aids him in escape before the other three deities can capture him. Velsharoon knowing that Mystra knows he has betrayed her cannot return and is forced to pledge loyalty to Shar. She anticipated such happening and he embraced the Shadow Weave, and she plans to use Velsharoon to spread the Shadow Weave throughout Faerun. After embracing the Shadow Weave, Velsharoon continues to pretend to be a servant of Mystra. He approaches Finder Wyvernspur and informs him of a place where Moanders essence still exists. Velsharoon was informed of his place by Shar, and as Finder approaches this place, Moander corrupts him and as Moanders corruption begins to transform Finder Velsharoon slays him for Moanders power. As Amaunator realizes how bad things are getting he begins to regret having set the events in motion. Geb the sole survivor of the Mulhorandi Pantheon (not including the banished and outcast Set or the merged Hathor) decides to leave Faerun and journey back to his home world. Tiamat having also been hunting the Mulhorandi Pantheon finally finds Set and they engage in battle. Tiamat is destroyed but as the battle ends, Amaunator discovers Set as well and they do battle. Amaunator nearly destroys Set, and is only able to flee with the aid of Shar. In the end, there would been many portfolio changes and I will attempt to list them below. Amaunator: Athletics, justice, law, life, order, self-perfection, the sun, vitality Siamorphe: Bureaucracy, nobility, royalty, rulership Chauntea: Agriculture, farmers, gardeners, rain, thunder, weather Hathor: Birth, creativity, marriage, motherhood, protector of children, renewal, spring, youth Set: Ambition, betrayal, corruption, evil reptiles (especially snakes and dragons), fear, greed, hate, murder, strife, tyranny, vengeance Velsharoon: Decay, necromancers, necromancy, rot, undead (especially liches), undeath Mask: Deception, illusions, intrigue, lies, shadows, thievery, thieves, wealth Red Knight: Planning, physical prowess, skill-at-arms, strategy, tactics, war Talos: Conflagrations, destruction, drought, earthquakes, plunder, rebellion, storms, vortices Dead Deities are listed below. Faerunian Pantheon Bane Cyric Lathander (reborn as Amaunator) Tempus Tyr Tiamat Finder Wyvernspur Garagos Hoar Mulhorandi Pantheon Anhur Geb (still alive but left Toril) Hathor (merged with Isis) Horus-Re (reborn as Amaunator) Isis (merged with Hathor) Nephthys Osiris Sebek Thoth
Razz 05-20-07, 09:47 PM	I don't see Lathander outright killing Horus-Re. According to Faiths&Avatars, I believe, when two deities of similar power and the same portfolios clash, the winner becomes the champion of that portfolio but the loser doesn't necessarily have to die. They can continue living but only as a demigod with a more restricted portfolio that's a subset of what it was originally the god of. In most cases, there was a battle to the death with the essence of the one defeated transferred to the winner. But in others, the loser was left alive but remained a demigod. This is what happened to Garagos after Tempus defeated him. For some reason, Tempus let Garagos live and he is now a demigod, but now longer is war his portfolio, but a sub-category of war is, the bloodlust and savagery involved with war. I can see the Lathander/Horus-Re battle turning out where one of them ends up being a demigod of, say, the dawn or dusk and some other miniscule portfolio.
Meldread 05-21-07, 02:49 AM	I agree, I don't think Lathander would outright kill Horus-Re, and in my "wishful" scenario of how things would play out... he didn't. I could certainly see Lathander fighting him over his portfolios and leaving him with nothing but Vengeance. Of course, any loss of portfolios will weaken Horus-Re and as a result of that he'll be weakened to a point where he's easy picking by his enemies. Set would salivate at the chance to get vengeance on Horus-Re for defeating him and being behind his exile. Which is what happened in my wishful scenario - a weakened and badly defeated Horus-Re was slain by a vengeful Set, delivering to Set the portfolio of Vengeance. However, what Lathander will do is all speculation. At this point in time, though I believe it seems fairly obvious that Lathander is gearing up for a show down with Horus-Re. This may be the primary reason he's allowing the heresy that he is Amaunator Reborn flourish.
Gray Richardson 05-21-07, 03:25 AM	Click on the links below for some previous discussions we have had about Lathander's new plan: Lathander's Deliverance (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-519286) The Dawn Cataclysm and Lathander's New Plot (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-713082.html) Lathander and the Dawn Cataclysm (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=577774) Dawn Cataclysm II & the Metatext (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=482132)
varyar 05-21-07, 09:43 AM	Click on the links below for some previous discussions we have had about Lathander's new plan: Lathander's Deliverance (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-519286) The Dawn Cataclysm and Lathander's New Plot (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-713082.html) Lathander and the Dawn Cataclysm (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=577774) Dawn Cataclysm II & the Metatext (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=482132) Awesome! Thanks for the links.
Lord_Steve 05-21-07, 03:08 PM	I'm sure one of our dear authors will write something up eventually...oh how I would love to read that.
Arbourean 05-21-07, 07:30 PM	Ah, the Lord of the Morning showing his true nature and ambition. Of course if he somehow becomes powerful enough to depose Ao I won't complain.
The Ubbergeek 05-21-07, 08:24 PM	Bah... they said that of Mystra...
Arbourean 05-21-07, 09:12 PM	I just find the concept of Ao to be completely pointless. They're gods, not wayward children. There shouldn't be an omnipotent being making sure they do their jobs.
Old Sage 05-21-07, 09:51 PM	Ao is pointless? So I suppose disregarding their worshippers in favor of engaging in mindless games of divine brinkmanship, stealing 'Tablets of Fate', and generally throwing all of the Realms into chaos, are perfectly acceptable activities for the various deities of the Realms to engage in without supervision by an Overpower? I would suggest a more thorough reading of both the "Avatar" and "Shadow of the Avatar" trilogies, as well as Faiths & Avatars, before you make any further statements like that.
Arbourean 05-21-07, 09:58 PM	Ao is pointless? So I suppose disregarding their worshippers in favor of engaging in mindless games of divine brinkmanship, stealing 'Tablets of Fate', and generally throwing all of the Realms into chaos, are perfectly acceptable activities for the various deities of the Realms to engage in without supervision by an Overpower? I would suggest a more thorough reading of both the "Avatar" and "Shadow of the Avatar" trilogies, as well as Faiths & Avatars, before you make any further statements like that. The gods should never have been portrayed as being so immature as to put the realms in jeopardy with childish behaviour. And I have read all of those series, thank you.
Old Sage 05-21-07, 10:25 PM	The depiction of the gods in the "Avatar" novels is literary licence: it doesn't match the deities as conceived elsewhere in Realmslore and shouldn't be taken as definitive of them. However, that still isn't enough to suggest that Ao is pointless. Ao still serves an important rule, especially after the Time of Troubles, where he took a direct hand in the affairs of the gods and declared that he must now give his consent before all such future attempts at creating new powers in the Realms. This also included resurrecting fallen powers and whether or not to allow interloper deities into Realmspace. Ultimately, this put a check on the overall power and reach of all the deities and thus made their actions all accountable to the Overpower.
The Ubbergeek 05-21-07, 10:34 PM	But then, the gods are not perfect - just look at the myths of our 'pagans' society. You need an AO as overseer, I say.... even the greeks had a vague idea of one. In any case, he is above them and their affair, just ensuring things go as they should.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 10:38 PM	Who was the Greek overseer, exactly?
customdrapery 05-22-07, 12:01 PM	Meldread - I just read through your plan the Deliverance and it makes some good reading. The only nitpicks I have is that I doubt that Set (even with Shar's assistance) could take out Tyr and Bane, but that's just my $0.02. Overall I agree with the folks above that the Deliverance may indeed have something to do with the merging of the Faerunian and the Mulhorandi pantheons and while that would be interesting, I'm kind of hoping that it goes in a slightly different direction, maybe simply a war amongst the Faerunian pantheon with a merging of the pantheons as a secondary outcome. The name "Deliverance" to me implies that Lathander is attempting to deliver Faerun from evil, maybe a direct attack on Shar, Talos, Bane, Cyric or all of them. In F&P it mentions that Lathander is working on some of the same "incantations and machinations" as the Dawn Cataclysm. Incantations sort of says "spells" to me, so I'm thinking that this is going to somehow involve Mystra and I have a pet theory that these incantations are methods for splitting portfolios, which could be interesting. Again, just a pet theory. Also, I'm not sure if Lathander actually needs to take out Horus-Re, their portfolios are only in major conflict if Lathander makes a real play for the aspect of Highsun. If he simply remains the aspect of Dawn, Horus-Re would be a fine addition as the aspect of highsun. Does being the aspect of Highsun really gain anything for Lathander? He's already got a slew of portfolios, not least of which are things like Rebirth, Creativity, and Youth.
Meldread 05-22-07, 02:07 PM	I'm glad you liked it Customdrapery. You might be right about Set, although by the time this takes place he will have grown in power, having pretty much the entire race of Yaun-ti (and any others that worship Sseth) worshiping him as their patron deity. After being outcast from Mulhorand he is either going to have to make some allies or grow in power. At the moment he's only an intermediate deity, but I can easily foresee him as a Greater God in the near future. I'm a big fan of Tyr, but he only has one portfolio (justice) and he has a divine rank of eighteen. I think that is a bit overrated for him. It would be nice to see him gain some more portfolios or have another deity replace him as the god of justice. In any case, I believe any battle between the Faerunian and Mulhorandi Pantheon is going to be disastrous for the Mulhorandi deities. A few might survive, but I think most are going to end up dying, falling in power greatly or leaving Toril all together. Set is the one most likely to survive, if only because he is already doing so, but he currently has Talos, Bane, Cyric and no doubt other deities looking at him. His only ally at the moment is Tiamat, but let us not forget that Set is a deity of betrayal. I could also see Set as an ally to Shar, if he's willing to give up the night portfolio. If he's willing to serve under her that will give him the protection he needs to spread into Faerun and grow in power largely unmolested. Otherwise, between Shar, Cyric, Bane and Talos all looking at Set infringe upon their portfolios - I don't think he will last long. In the end, I think (and hope) the Deliverance opens a new era for Faerun after the dust settles. The outcome will stretch out for generations, but I think ultimately we'll see the deities of Faerun mature and evolve as a result. I also think any discussion involving the Deliverance also has to take into consideration the Risen Sun Heresy and what Lathander is allowing to take place there. He knows what is going on and it likely factors into his plans for the Deliverance somehow.
customdrapery 05-22-07, 05:19 PM	I agree that the Mulhorandi pantheon is doomed, there is really nothing that can save them. I also agree that Set may get more life in a merged pantheon. He's a better evil deity than Cyric or Bane IMHO. Lathander has to know what he is doing by embracing the Risen Sun Heresy, it does stand to reason that if a fairly large number of worshipers are going to go around declaring him the risen Highsun, why not, it just serves to increase his power. He may even start to believe it after a while. And it might possibly be true anyway. I like Tyr, he adds some nice stability to the Good side of the Pantheon, he fits well, but I agree that he needs something more than Justice, I would like to see him take over War. If Lathander is really becoming more Lawful, it might stand to reason that he would want a lawfully oriented War god than a chaotic one. I say get rid of Tempus, let Tyr have Justice and War and have Red Knight join the Triad (which is kind of like a four-book trilogy, but you get the idea).
Gray Richardson 05-22-07, 07:05 PM	Lathander has to know what he is doing by embracing the Risen Sun Heresy, it does stand to reason that if a fairly large number of worshipers are going to go around declaring him the risen Highsun, why not, it just serves to increase his power. He may even start to believe it after a while. And it might possibly be true anyway.I don't know exactly how much choice Lathander has in the matter, it may not be a question of his embracing it. Rather, I think that gods are susceptible to the beliefs of their faithful; a god's opinions and outlook may be subject to change as the mass of his believers change. I think that gods, to some extent, become victims of their own hype. While Lathander is--at least in part--an independent mind capable of forming his own opinions, the collective belief of his worshippers may have the effect of a selectively altering or overwriting his memory and outlook over time so that it might be impossible for him to avoid believing he is the risen sun... that is if the heresy takes hold and comes to be widely believed. The effect might be so slow that Lathander just morphs into Amaunator over time (decades or centuries), like one picture morphing into another, pixel by pixel, so slowly that you don't even notice the individual pixels being replaced. Of course, if say Horus-Re were to preempt him by entering the Faerunian pantheon and claiming the Highsun portfolio, that might cause some interesting conflict as they both vie for the hearts and minds of the greatest number of worshipers.
The Ubbergeek 05-22-07, 08:10 PM	Interesting idea, considering the more lawfullness of Horus-Re and his father.... What if it's Horus-Re who reincarnate or unite or become a being similar to Amaunator? Somehow, it seems a better fit to me...
Meldread 05-22-07, 08:13 PM	I tend to agree with you Gray, but I think it is both more simple and complex than that. Generally speaking, I don't think deities give much thought to heresies, especially not in the wake of the Time of Troubles. (The more worshipers the better.) However, a deity is faced with a few choices: 1. He can embrace the heresy, proclaiming it is true. 2. He can ignore the heresy, saying nothing. 3. He can deny the heresy, proclaiming it is false. In most cases deities seem to choose option two. I don't know of a case where a deity has chosen option three, though it certainly exists and I am sure there have been cases where deities have embraced option one. Lathander has been given the opportunity to give clarity and insight as to if there is any truth behind the heresy. Thus far he has remained silent and reluctant to speak of it. This means he is either indifferent or supportive of the heresy. One thing is for certain, if he is successful in proclaiming the sun portfolio that will put him squarely in conflict with Horus-Re. It may also fundamentally change who Lathander is - how he thinks and how he acts.
Zardnaar 05-23-07, 04:08 AM	I tend to agree with you Gray, but I think it is both more simple and complex than that. Generally speaking, I don't think deities give much thought to heresies, especially not in the wake of the Time of Troubles. (The more worshipers the better.) However, a deity is faced with a few choices: 1. He can embrace the heresy, proclaiming it is true. 2. He can ignore the heresy, saying nothing. 3. He can deny the heresy, proclaiming it is false. In most cases deities seem to choose option two. I don't know of a case where a deity has chosen option three, though it certainly exists and I am sure there have been cases where deities have embraced option one. Lathander has been given the opportunity to give clarity and insight as to if there is any truth behind the heresy. Thus far he has remained silent and reluctant to speak of it. This means he is either indifferent or supportive of the heresy. One thing is for certain, if he is successful in proclaiming the sun portfolio that will put him squarely in conflict with Horus-Re. It may also fundamentally change who Lathander is - how he thinks and how he acts. Not really different Pantheons.
PharaunMizzrym 05-23-07, 04:36 AM	Yes, but they are different pantheons which may soon merge into one pantheon. What about the mulhorandi acceptance of slavery? Horus-Re absolutely does not like change, so I doubt he will change his beliefs on this matter. Lathander may then have problems with Horus-Re becoming highsun. Most if not all good deities in the faerunian pantheon would not like to see the definition of what is good be restructured to view slavery as an acceptable practice. Horus-Re would then come into conflict with Ilmater, and by extension the rest of the Triad. Horus-Re just isn't a good fit for Faerun. One factor we have previously failed to consider is Tiamat. Her machinations are right in the middle of the Faerunian and Mulhorandi. Like a river separating two banks of a river, she keeps both sides from effectively colliding. Not until something is done about her, or at least her church, should the War of the Pantheons ensue.
Meldread 05-23-07, 04:50 AM	I am aware of that, Zardnaar. However, when (not if, but when) the pantheons merge that will put Lathander and Horus-Re at odds. There will be a merge in the future, whether or not it has anything to do with the Deliverance is debatable, but the Mulhorandi Pantheon merging into the greater Faerunian Pantheon is inevitable. As the Mulhorandi Pantheon gains worshipers within the Old Empires this will bring the two pantheons into conflict. Due to Ao's rules that no deity above demi-god may hold the same portfolio, this will bring just about every deity in the Mulhorandi Pantheon into conflict with a deity from the Faerunian Pantheon. Because Set has been exiled from the Mulhorandi Pantheon he is already experiencing some trouble as noted in F&P with Cyric, Bane and Talos looking at him as a potential threat. Since the Time of Troubles, Horus-Re is encouraging his clergy to gain more worshipers focusing heavily on Unther. With the death of most of the Untheric Pantheon it has left a void that both the Faerunian Deities and the Mulhorandi Deities are seeking to fill - which will begin their first clashes as they cross over into each others spheres of influence. To make matters more complex, the only surviving deities of the Untheric Pantheon are Assuran (now known as Hoar), Tiamat and debatably Ishtar (now known as Isis). Hoar and Tiamat crossed over into the Faerunian pantheon, while Ishtar (if she is Isis) crossed over (or merged) into the Mulhorandi Pantheon. Tiamat and Set are allies because they both hate the Mulhorandi Pantheon and want to see it wiped out. Hoar also has a dislike for the Mulhorandi Pantheon and in particular Anhur. Bane already has a significant following in Unther, and other Faerunian deities are pushing for the same. The Time of Troubles and Ao's decree that worshipers will now be the baseline for a deities power will only exacerbate the problem. The deities are beginning a strong evangelizing effort to gain more followers, simply speeding up the process, and meaning that there will likely be less cooperation and tolerance for any infringement. A good example of this is Malar's anger with Sebek over his portfolio of werecrocodiles. Malar is incensed that anyone would even think of infringing - even in a minor way - upon his portfolio of evil lycanthropes. There will no doubt be more of this in the future.
Zardnaar 05-23-07, 05:04 AM	Apart form fan speculation there is no evidence the Pantheons will merge. The Mulhorandi one has even expanded a little bit in Unther. The Mulhorandi one should be more than capable of holding its own vs the Faerun pantheon as its a united pantheon. Sure the Faerun pantheon could gax it by working togather but thats not going to happen. The Mulhorandi Pantheon is a more or less united family apart form Set. Some individual gods might cross over either way.
Meldread 05-23-07, 05:08 AM	One factor we have previously failed to consider is Tiamat. Her machinations are right in the middle of the Faerunian and Mulhorandi. Like a river separating two banks of a river, she keeps both sides from effectively colliding. Not until something is done about her, or at least her church, should the War of the Pantheons ensue. Tiamat definitely has a role to play in the conflict, and you are right about her effectively straddling both sides. However, where she stands is clear: She hates the Mulhorandi Pantheon. She is out to destroy it and has Set as an ally. They will be two key players in whatever drama unfolds, perhaps the two central players... However, Tiamat cannot do anything to prevent or slow what is coming. Unless she effectively has her followers stomp out other religions - both Mulhorandi and Faerunian - there is nothing that will prevent it. They're on a one-way collision course and she's right in the middle. To make matters worse, she is still recovering from being smacked down by Gilgeam during the Time of Troubles. Really, in the middle is the last place I'd want to be in any deific conflict. It simply translates to "die quickly" or "become a pawn". Really, it comes down to mortals and their churches. As they spread their faith, particularly in Unther the deities will come into conflict. You're right about Horus-Re though and the same applies to most of the other deities. Most of the Mulhorandi Pantheon is destined to be killed, merged (with a Faerunian Deity), greatly reduced in power (to demi-god) or flee Toril entirely. Geb and Hathor are already taking leaving Toril into consideration.
Meldread 05-23-07, 05:26 AM	Zardnaar- True, it is speculation but there is no reason to believe that it will not happen. It has happened in the past, before the Time of Troubles, now that worshipers are a key factor in a deities power what are the odds that it won't happen again? The simple fact is the Faerunian and the Mulhorandi Pantheon are both expanding into the Old Empires and both are making a push for Unther. They cannot co-exist. They simply cannot by decree of Ao, every single deity has a portfolio that clashes directly or indirectly with a member of the Faerunian Pantheon. They might be able to hold their own, but I think it is essential to remember that the entire Pantheon only has one Greater Deity who is Horus-Re. As pointed out, he will in the very least clash culturally with the other deities of the Faerunian Pantheon. If Lathander is making a play for Amaunator’s portfolios that will definitely put those two on a collision course that will not work out well for Horus-Re. Lathander could easily seize the opportunity to eliminate Horus-Re and take control of his church as a new Highsun deity. If that happens it is important to look at what will happen in Mulhorand as it is a theocracy with the clergy of Horus-Re running the entire government. Really, I do not think the Faerunian Pantheon has to work together to take out the Mulhorandi Pantheon. If Horus-Re is removed who is the "glue" of the Pantheon the rest of the deities are easy pickings by both enemies and opportunists who are all stronger than the Mulhorandi deities. Certainly, it is all speculation but I do believe based on all the evidence (both current and historical) that the two pantheons will inevitably clash.
Zardnaar 05-23-07, 07:53 AM	Zardnaar- True, it is speculation but there is no reason to believe that it will not happen. It has happened in the past, before the Time of Troubles, now that worshipers are a key factor in a deities power what are the odds that it won't happen again? The simple fact is the Faerunian and the Mulhorandi Pantheon are both expanding into the Old Empires and both are making a push for Unther. They cannot co-exist. They simply cannot by decree of Ao, every single deity has a portfolio that clashes directly or indirectly with a member of the Faerunian Pantheon. They might be able to hold their own, but I think it is essential to remember that the entire Pantheon only has one Greater Deity who is Horus-Re. As pointed out, he will in the very least clash culturally with the other deities of the Faerunian Pantheon. If Lathander is making a play for Amaunator’s portfolios that will definitely put those two on a collision course that will not work out well for Horus-Re. Lathander could easily seize the opportunity to eliminate Horus-Re and take control of his church as a new Highsun deity. If that happens it is important to look at what will happen in Mulhorand as it is a theocracy with the clergy of Horus-Re running the entire government. Really, I do not think the Faerunian Pantheon has to work together to take out the Mulhorandi Pantheon. If Horus-Re is removed who is the "glue" of the Pantheon the rest of the deities are easy pickings by both enemies and opportunists who are all stronger than the Mulhorandi deities. Certainly, it is all speculation but I do believe based on all the evidence (both current and historical) that the two pantheons will inevitably clash. Except the old empire have a masive population compared to the rest of Faerun and all that worship is directed at a handful of gods. Lathendars allies might stand by him if attacked but I doubt they will support a war of divine push and shove in an area that doesn't really concern them. Mess with the Mulhorandi deities and you mess with more or less all of them. What book had the numbers for a deities worship? Cyric and Bane had about 100000 to 200000 worshippers as greater powers. The old empires have big populations and very few deities to direct that worship to. Wonder what Horus-Res divine rank is?
Meldread 05-23-07, 09:54 AM	The Old Empires have a combined population of roughly 12,990,240 inhabitants. This is compared to the combined population of the Lands of Intrigue (Amn, Tethyr and Calimshan) who have a combined population of roughly 12,074,400 inhabitants. That's still leaving out Cormyr, the Dalelands, the Dragon Coast, the Moonsea region, the North, Sembia, the Shining South, the Unapproachable East, the Vilhon Reach region... all of which easily exceeds the populations in the Old Empires. All of which fall under the sphere of influence of the Faerunian Pantheon. What book had the numbers for a deities worship? Deities and Demigods is the book. A greater deity has a divine rank of 16-20, and according to Deities and Demi-Gods, "...these entities may have millions of mortal worshipers, and they command respect even among other deities. The most powerful of greater deities rule over other deities just as mortal sovereigns rule over commoners." Horus-Re probably has a divine rank of 16 or 17, which puts him on par with most of the other greater deities of the Faerunian Pantheon. The deity with the most divine rank is Chauntea with a DR of 19. Lathander has a divine rank of 17 and I would assume Horus-Re is on par with him. Lathendars allies might stand by him if attacked but I doubt they will support a war of divine push and shove in an area that doesn't really concern them. Except, of course Lathander and a good number of other Faerunian deities are making a push for Unther. Keep in mind that Lathander may have arrived in the Realm's via the old Empires - Chessenta. His worship is strong there, and although the other churches view Chessentan Lathanderan's as "backward" - they are showing renewed interest due to the wish to spread into Unther. I don't think the deities would prefer an all out war with the Mulhorandi Pantheon, and I don't think that is what Lathander has planned. I think he intends to take up most of Amaunator's portfolios then merge with Horus-Re (by force if necessary) and then lead the Mulhorandi Pantheon in an assault on the evil deities of the Faerunian Pantheon. However, it would all go wrong due to the machinations of Tiamat, Set and Shar. Shar was responsible for the failure of the Dawn Cataclysm so she will likely be behind (directly or indirectly) the failure of the Deliverance.
customdrapery 05-23-07, 10:08 AM	Looking through the new Deities and Demigods the divine rank of Re-Horakhty the sun god and leader of the pharaonic pantheon is 19, which would place him as the god with the highest divine rank (along with Chauntea). I'm not saying that Re-Horakhty is the Horus-Re of the Forgotten Realms, but it may give us an idea what his power level may be. I've always thought the inclusion of the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons were ways to incorporate "real world" pantheons into the Forgotten Realms for those players that were interested in using those parts of the world. As such, I have a feeling that WOC is looking to remove those elements from the Forgotten Realms and make it more of a fantasy world with no "real world" ties. Thus I believe that the Mulhorandi Pantheon will merge with the Faerunian one and many of the more minor Mulhorandi gods will be wiped out, but I can see some incorporation of different gods of magic. I also think Kelemvor might be given a run for his money as a god of the dead and Set is a much better evil god than some of the Faerunian ones (specifically Cyric should go away as should tired old Bane). I'm intrigued by Gray's idea that "the worshipers make the god", over time this could lead to significant changes in any deities. Could that be what happened to Tyche? Her church was so split that she herself split? Could the whole Moander connection have been used as a metaphor for what happened in her church? Just a thought. Has there been any other evidence for worshipers changing one of the gods? Another thought, if Horus-Re and Lathander come into conflict, could it be possible that each of them assumes an aspect of the Three-Faced Sun? Could Lathander assume Highsun and Horus-Re assume dusk? Or vice versa? That's assuming that that heresy is true, of course.
The Ubbergeek 05-23-07, 11:41 AM	It would be sad to see the Mulhorandi pantheon leave, especially just for some OOC reason. Some of those gods could have a good life incorporated in the faerun pantheon, at least. Not everyone have to worship faerunian gods, and shouldn't, it would inevitable that margers arrive, but so soon? are the nonhuman pantheons doomed too?
Meldread 05-23-07, 01:01 PM	That's a good question Ubbergeek, and honestly I think it is debatable. With the Elves returning to Faerun... who can say? If the end result is Elves beginning to become more intermixed with Human Civilization it could be possible, I suppose, but less likely than what is going on with the Mulhorandi Pantheon. The only thing that separates the Mulhorandi Pantheon from the Faerunian Pantheon is a geographic boundary. Once that boundary is crossed their spheres of influences collide and the problems begin.
customdrapery 05-23-07, 01:22 PM	I agree that the Mulhorandi Pantheon adds flavor to the Faerunian one, I don't really want to see them go either. Having a part of the continent that is governed by totally different rules and religions is nice. Plus I like the addition of some of those gods into the Faerunian pantheon (Hoar, Tiamat). As far as the nonhuman pantheons go, I'm not sure. If the Forgotten Realms is supposed to go along the lines of Middle Earth, then the nonhumans will eventually all end up as humans and their pantheons will either merge or die off from neglect. Even that though will take a long, long time to take place. I'm hoping to keep all the nonhuman pantheons. The only thing I think is kind of odd is that the Drow have their own pantheon, while the other elvish subraces don't. Shrug.
Perun 05-23-07, 03:24 PM	The Old Empires have a combined population of roughly 12,990,240 inhabitants. This is compared to the combined population of the Lands of Intrigue (Amn, Tethyr and Calimshan) who have a combined population of roughly 12,074,400 inhabitants. That's still leaving out Cormyr, the Dalelands, the Dragon Coast, the Moonsea region, the North, Sembia, the Shining South, the Unapproachable East, the Vilhon Reach region... all of which easily exceeds the populations in the Old Empires. All of which fall under the sphere of influence of the Faerunian Pantheon. Interesting thread! :) Just to point out that the Faerūnian pantheon, as presented in the FRCS, has 57 deities, while the Mulhorandi pantheon has only 10. I'd wager Mulhorandi deities generally have more worshippers per deity than the Faerūnians. A quick calculation shows the Faerūn, without the Old Empires, has a population of about 48 million, and that's including various humanoids listed in the regional entries, but excluding Evermeet, the Great Rift, and Luiren, meaning that the actual human population is lower than that. Let's say the population is 90% human (it's probably lower, but let's be generous), or about 43.2 million. Old Empires have about a population of a bit les than 13 million. That means that, on average, Faerūnian pantheon has about 760,000 worshipper per member, while Mulhorandi pantheon has about 1.3 million w/m. Even though this is a very rough estimate, Mulhorandi deities still get about half a million worshippers per member more than their Faerūnian counterparts. Food for thought. :)
Zardnaar 05-23-07, 04:13 PM	Interesting thread! :) Just to point out that the Faerūnian pantheon, as presented in the FRCS, has 57 deities, while the Mulhorandi pantheon has only 10. I'd wager Mulhorandi deities generally have more worshippers per deity than the Faerūnians. A quick calculation shows the Faerūn, without the Old Empires, has a population of about 48 million, and that's including various humanoids listed in the regional entries, but excluding Evermeet, the Great Rift, and Luiren, meaning that the actual human population is lower than that. Let's say the population is 90% human (it's probably lower, but let's be generous), or about 43.2 million. Old Empires have about a population of a bit les than 13 million. That means that, on average, Faerūnian pantheon has about 760,000 worshipper per member, while Mulhorandi pantheon has about 1.3 million w/m. Even though this is a very rough estimate, Mulhorandi deities still get about half a million worshippers per member more than their Faerūnian counterparts. Food for thought. :) That was kinda my point. Horus Re as the head of the Pantheon would probaby get alot more worship than the others. He probably does have a higher divine rank than Lathendar.
Meldread 05-23-07, 04:31 PM	Perun- That is correct, and it is also the ironic part of the whole problem. Unless they are all worshiping Horus-Re (in which case he would most likely be DR 20 - possibly ready to bump up past DR 21), it does not explain their current power levels. Horus-Re is the only Greater Deity in the entire Mulhorandi Pantheon. Even Set is just an Intermediate Deity. In any case, the Mulhorandi Pantheon is not as unified as they first appear. Although Horus-Re leads the pantheon in theory his only real allies are Isis, Osiris and Thoth. Anhur and Horus-Re are having troubles. Set is in exile. Nephthys' doesn't really have any friends among the pantheon, and is facing trouble with Waukeen and Mask. Sebek is definitely on the outside looking in, while not in exile, he's little more than a pawn for Set. Hathor and Geb are contemplating leaving Toril for good. In the end, the Pantheon is only loosely unified. They don't share the closeness that is shared among other tight pantheons.
GothicDan 05-23-07, 04:33 PM	The only deities of any pantheon that have a DvR of 18+ are those that are integral to the nature of Realmspace itself (Shar, Mystra, Chauntea, AO), or those who are the heads of entire races (Moradin, Corellon, etc.). In FR, Horus-Re is neither of these. I think DvR 17 is appropriate for him.
customdrapery 05-23-07, 05:01 PM	Let's throw another wrench into this works... Gruumsh killed the original god Ra, and Gruumsh has a DR of 16 (according to Deities and Demigods, which may or may not be accurate for the FR), so for Gruumsh to be able to kill Ra, he had to have a greater divine rank and/or Re wasn't a greater power. Upon his death, Re and Horus merged to become Horus-Re, who is a greater power with DR of at least 16. In my opinion, Horus-Re is approximately equal to Lathander in divine rank (plus or minus 1). And if we assume that greater deities in any given pantheon have more worshipers than intermediate, lesser and demi-gods, then Lathander would have more than the average (calculated above) of 760,000 and Horus would also have a larger cut so more than 1.3 million. Either way, I would guess that Lathander and Horus-Re are about equal in the number of worshipers. Although I think that Lathander probably has a slight edge since there are more worshipers overall for the Faerunian pantheon and Lathander's church is very popular, and probably more popular than some of the greater evil gods (like Cyric or Bane).
customdrapery 05-23-07, 05:04 PM	A (slightly) better look at the numbers... According to F&P: Greater - millions of worshipers (17 in Faerunian, 1 in Mulhorandi) Intermediate - hundreds of thousands (8 in Faerunian, 5 in Mulhorandi) Lesser - thousands (14 in Faerunian, 3 in Mulhorandi) Demi - hundreds (16 in Faerunian, 1 in Mulhorand) Lets give some weighting to this scheme. For the Faerunian Pantheon if we assume 1000 worshipers for each Demi-god 10,000 for each Lesser 250,000 for each Intermediate 2.5 million for each Greater This gives a total of about 44.6 million worshipers for the Faerunian Pantheon. These numbers don't work out well for the number Mulhorandi Pantheon worshipers, so they must have a different breakdown, maybe: Demi = 2500 Lesser = 25000 Intermediate 500,000 Greater = 10 million This gives a total of 12.57 million worshipers. The problem with this scheme is that to even get close to the right number of worshipers in either pantheon the Greater and the Intermediate powers have to have a significant portion of the total worshiper numbers. This is especially true in the Mulhorandi pantheon where Horus-Re (the lone greater power) has to completely dominate the total number of worshipers, which may or may not be the case. If looked at like this, Horus-Re has a significantly larger number of worshipers than Lathander. (These numbers are pure speculation based on the information given at the beginning of F&P, feel free to disregard.)
GothicDan 05-23-07, 05:05 PM	And, again, when it comes right down to it, Lathander has more numerous and powerful allies. Just having Chauntea on his side is kind of a kick in the pants.
customdrapery 05-23-07, 05:27 PM	Oh, you're absolutely right, Lathander has some very strong allies, even amongst the more Neutral deities. Having Chauntea and Oghma (at least giving a nod) on his side along with the rest of the Good powers. He's in a pretty strong position. I would personally like to see him defeat Horus-Re, but that's just me.
Zardnaar 05-23-07, 05:33 PM	yeah but why wuld Lathendars good aligned Allies help him murder a LG foreign god? They would hel him if Horus-Re came after Lathendar but I don't really see that happening. What book gave Bane and Cyrics number of followers at 100000 for Bane and 200000 for Cyric? Lords of Darkness maybe? I'm leaning toward Horus Re being slightly more powerful than Lathander due to number of worshippers and head of Pantheon which seems to get you a bonus divine rank. How many elves/dwarves are there and look at Moradin and Correllon. They are multispheric powers though and so is Horus -Re.
customdrapery 05-23-07, 05:51 PM	That's a good question, I hadn't looked at those sources...(flips through book)... LoD lists Cyric's church as having 250,000 worshipers, Bane with 135,000 and Shar with 100,000. These all seem ridiculously low for greater powers.
Zardnaar 05-23-07, 06:07 PM	That's a good question, I hadn't looked at those sources...(flips through book)... LoD lists Cyric's church as having 250,000 worshipers, Bane with 135,000 and Shar with 100,000. These all seem ridiculously low for greater powers. Yep and thats worsippers not Clerics. Most people in FR would worship multiple gods. Upon death they get judged and proably shunted off to the god they either worshopped the most or comes closest to their alignment. They weren't faithless or false. It would stand to reason the goood aligned gods have similar number or worshippers in the Faerunian pantheon. As I said the Mulhorandi pantheon doesn't have that many gods to spread the worship around. Bye bye Lathendar Horus Re probably has a higher divine rank than you. I'm guesing 19 since he is head of a pantheon.
GothicDan 05-23-07, 06:11 PM	There's no such thing as Multispheric deities in the current cosmology. And, as has been stated many times, there's more to power than number of worshippers. Mystra is evidence of this, as is Shar.
Zardnaar 05-23-07, 06:34 PM	There's no such thing as Multispheric deities in the current cosmology. And, as has been stated many times, there's more to power than number of worshippers. Mystra is evidence of this, as is Shar. except the Time of Troubles more or les tied a gods power to the number of worshippers. If there is more to power than number of worshippers Horus Re is head of a pantheon and Lathander isn't. Probably a reason why Corlleon and Moradin are so powerful- divine rank 19 or so.
PharaunMizzrym 05-23-07, 07:09 PM	The spread of Horus-Re's church facilitates the spread of slavery. Lathander is the god of renewal, and Horus-Re opposes change. They have plenty of reasons to come into conflict with each other.
Zardnaar 05-23-07, 07:27 PM	The spread of Horus-Re's church facilitates the spread of slavery. Lathander is the god of renewal, and Horus-Re opposes change. They have plenty of reasons to come into conflict with each other. Morality is often subjective. Slavery doesn't mean evil in the D&D cosmos and even alot of LG societies by modeern standards would be evil. Most modern countries don't have the death penalty where as 100 years ago it was commen. Ancient societies often enslaved POW's. Letting your enemy go wasn't much of option. Slavery was also a form of ancient welfare. Is it better to starve in the street or be a slave? Of course treatment of slaves varied by society or had other limits on it such as a fixed term to pay a debt or service.
Old Sage 05-23-07, 08:42 PM	except the Time of Troubles more or les tied a gods power to the number of worshippers.Though, TSR retconed that as it happened in the Time of Troubles. Amaunator died of neglect -- which tells you that the power of worshipper faith was just as integral in the past as it is post-ToT. We know that people simply stopped worshipping him to the point where he could no longer maintain his "Keep of the Sun" with his divine energy and thus was forced to recede into the Astral.
Old Sage 05-23-07, 08:45 PM	There's no question that worship is only part of what determines a god's power, since the order of most-worshipped gods isn't the same list as most-powerful. Just look at Waukeen, Shar and the other evil deities, Horus-Re, Lolth, and the elemental lords.
GothicDan 05-23-07, 09:28 PM	except the Time of Troubles more or les tied a gods power to the number of worshippers. If there is more to power than number of worshippers Horus Re is head of a pantheon and Lathander isn't. The question is, who says he's the head of the pantheon, and what does that mean? Faerun HAS no pantheon head, so of course Lathander couldn't be the head. And Horus-Re is wholly an interloper deity, and has no actual ties to the Crystal Sphere of Realmspace. Whatever power he may have had as actual pantheon head would have been negated once he subjected himself to AO's will. The other pantheon heads are all pantheon heads of their own RACES. And note that this does NOT grant them automatic power in FR - Lolth was only an Intermediate Power for a long time, and it was only through her own gambit that she became Greater. So, referring to him as a pantheon head of a HUMAN pantheon (that is, he did NOT directly create humanity, as Corellon did Elves, and Moradin did Dwarves, etc.) means very little in terms of power. Lolth, however, DID NOT create the Drow, and was only an Intermediate God. There's something special, it seems, if you're the pantheon head of a pantheon of mortals *you created*... But Horus-Re did not create humanity in Abeir-Toril.
PharaunMizzrym 05-24-07, 01:18 AM	There is a feat in deities and demigods that allows for a deity to create a living creature. Perhaps Horus-Re is not the creator of humans as a whole, but whats to say that Rehorakty (spelling?) didn't create the Mulans, and that Horus-Re by absorbing him did not inherit the status of creator of the Mulan. After all, what happens on Earth stays on Earth.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 01:53 AM	The current Realms is not multispheric. As you said, what happens on Earth stays on Earth. Re-Horakhty's power on Earth has nothing to do with Horus-Re's on Abeir-Toril. And even in 2E, a deity's given aspect on a world was based solely upon their power and worshipper level in that specific world. And we didn't have silly DvR's to mess things up.
Perun 05-24-07, 02:00 AM	The question is, who says he's the head of the pantheon, and what does that mean? Page 144 of the F&P, in the History/Relationships paragraph says: [...] Horus became Horus-Re, chief deity of the Mulhorand pantheon [...] and Although all the Mulhorandi deities in principle answer to Horus-Re [...] Also, page 109 of the Powers & Pantheons accessory. He also bears the title of the Pharaoh of the Gods, for whatever it's worth. And Horus-Re is wholly an interloper deity, and has no actual ties to the Crystal Sphere of Realmspace. Whatever power he may have had as actual pantheon head would have been negated once he subjected himself to AO's will. But, that's exactly what happened. In the old Legends & Lore accessory, during the time of cyrstal spheres and multospheric deities, the Egyptian panthon (described in Legends & Lore) was different from the mulhorandi pantheon. Horus and Ra were separate deities, and the pantheon numbered more than 10 powers. The events that took place in FR changed the Realmspace aspects of the Egyptian (there known as Mulhorandi) pantheon, like the merging of Horus and Ra into Horus-Re during the Orcgate wars. The other pantheon heads are all pantheon heads of their own RACES. And note that this does NOT grant them automatic power in FR - Lolth was only an Intermediate Power for a long time, and it was only through her own gambit that she became Greater. Most of the divine ranks in 3e were directly taken from older 1e/2e sources, when Horus-Re (in his original aspect of Ra) ruled as the head of the Egyptian pantheon over the countless Prime worlds. Corellon and Moradin are greater powers for that very reason. They were heads of the elven and dwarven pantheons, worshipped by virtually every elf or dwarf in the multiverse (there were a couple of exceptions, like Krynn, Athas, and Cerilia [in case of elves, Cerilian dwarves worshipped Moradin]). But even more importantly, they were greater deities when they were first introduced in Greyhawk. The ranks just stuck after that. So, referring to him as a pantheon head of a HUMAN pantheon (that is, he did NOT directly create humanity, as Corellon did Elves, and Moradin did Dwarves, etc.) means very little in terms of power. Lolth, however, DID NOT create the Drow, and was only an Intermediate God. There's something special, it seems, if you're the pantheon head of a pantheon of mortals *you created*... But Horus-Re did not create humanity in Abeir-Toril. But, switching to the 3e perspective of separate universes, he might have created the Mulan humans, back in the world in which they originated. Remember, the mulan were transported to Faerūn by the ancient Imaskari, and they brought their gods with them. Also worth noting is that Horus-Re's personality changed since 2e. In Powers & Pantheons he was described as still bearing traces of old Horus' personality: In the move to a more broad focus to his godhood forced upon him by assuming Re's mantle, Horus appears to have had most of his personal nature overwhelmed by the power and consciousness of Re, and still parrots Re's viewpoints almost verbatim. Many of the people of Mulhorand secretly hope for a gradual shift in Horus-Re's position towarda compromise between eternal unchanginess and constant change that might come about because of the eventual reassertion of Horus' buried personality to balance that of Re, but such hopes have seen no actions to evidence they might come true. He also allowed CG cleric sand specialty priests in 2e, although he himself was LG. This was a throwback to the old, chaotic ways of Horus. [...] those few of a chaotic bent (allowed into the priesthood in memory of Horus's more chaotic past) [...] That (2e) Horus-Re would have been perfect in 3(.5)e. Him finding the balance between the two personalities, and shifting his alignment to NG would fit perfectly with the Mulhorand's newfound vigour and ongoing expansion. In my opinion, of course. (I'm once again fascinated with the amount of detail and general quality of the old 2e F&A-series books, as well as the lack of it in the 3e F&P accessory :P)
Perun 05-24-07, 02:18 AM	And even in 2E, a deity's given aspect on a world was based solely upon their power and worshipper level in that specific world. And we didn't have silly DvR's to mess things up. Since I'm already rambling... :embarrass From what I recall, and I might be very well wrong on this one, the only cases where there was a difference between the rank of a multispheric, "original" deity out on the planes and his or her aspect in a single crystal sphere was if the deity in question actually had a higher rank in that crystal sphere. 2e Tyr is the perfect example. Out in the planes, he's an intermediate power. In order to stop his decline, he concetrated his influence in Realmspace, becoming a greater power of justice (outside of Faerūn he held the portfolios of courage, law, and swordmanship). Similar things happened with Loviatar and Mielikki. I can't think of a case where the opposite happened. Presumably, if a deity's single-sphere rank fell below his "original" rank, he could maintain it at it's original level. then again, I might just be forgetting things. Regards.
Zardnaar 05-24-07, 02:20 AM	Page 144 of the F&P, in the History/Relationships paragraph says: and Also, page 109 of the Powers & Pantheons accessory. He also bears the title of the Pharaoh of the Gods, for whatever it's worth. But, that's exactly what happened. In the old Legends & Lore accessory, during the time of cyrstal spheres and multospheric deities, the Egyptian panthon (described in Legends & Lore) was different from the mulhorandi pantheon. Horus and Ra were separate deities, and the pantheon numbered more than 10 powers. The events that took place in FR changed the Realmspace aspects of the Egyptian (there known as Mulhorandi) pantheon, like the merging of Horus and Ra into Horus-Re during the Orcgate wars. Most of the divine ranks in 3e were directly taken from older 1e/2e sources, when Horus-Re (in his original aspect of Ra) ruled as the head of the Egyptian pantheon over the countless Prime worlds. Corellon and Moradin are greater powers for that very reason. They were heads of the elven and dwarven pantheons, worshipped by virtually every elf or dwarf in the multiverse (there were a couple of exceptions, like Krynn, Athas, and Cerilia [in case of elves, Cerilian dwarves worshipped Moradin]). But even more importantly, they were greater deities when they were first introduced in Greyhawk. The ranks just stuck after that. But, switching to the 3e perspective of separate universes, he might have created the Mulan humans, back in the world in which they originated. Remember, the mulan were transported to Faerūn by the ancient Imaskari, and they brought their gods with them. Also worth noting is that Horus-Re's personality changed since 2e. In Powers & Pantheons he was described as still bearing traces of old Horus' personality: He also allowed CG cleric sand specialty priests in 2e, although he himself was LG. This was a throwback to the old, chaotic ways of Horus. That (2e) Horus-Re would have been perfect in 3(.5)e. Him finding the balance between the two personalities, and shifting his alignment to NG would fit perfectly with the Mulhorand's newfound vigour and ongoing expansion. In my opinion, of course. "](I'm once again fascinated with the amount of detail and general quality of the old 2e F&A-series books, as well as the lack of it in the 3e F&P accessory :P[/B]) To be fair it was 3 books vs 1. I'm happy as I still have them.
PharaunMizzrym 05-24-07, 02:24 AM	There is a feat in deities and demigods that allows for a deity to create a living creature. Perhaps Horus-Re is not the creator of humans as a whole, but whats to say that Rehorakty (spelling?) didn't create the Mulans, and that Horus-Re by absorbing him did not inherit the status of creator of the Mulan. After all, what happens on Earth stays on Earth. The current Realms is not multispheric. As you said, what happens on Earth stays on Earth. Re-Horakhty's power on Earth has nothing to do with Horus-Re's on Abeir-Toril. And even in 2E, a deity's given aspect on a world was based solely upon their power and worshipper level in that specific world. And we didn't have silly DvR's to mess things up. Corellan did not create the elves in Fearun, they migrated from Faerie. Similar circumstances with the dwarves. My point still stands.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 02:26 AM	And there were no Elves native to Faerun. Humans ARE a Creator Race - they were native to Faerun. The Elves worship, 99% of the time, the Seldarine. ALL Elves (excluding Drow). Your point does not stand at all, because humans are native to Abeir-Toril, and have multiple pantheons. The Faerunian pantheon is the only one that contains native deities.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 02:31 AM	Since I'm already rambling... From what I recall, and I might be very well wrong on this one, the only cases where there was a difference between the rank of a multispheric, "original" deity out on the planes and his or her aspect in a single crystal sphere was if the deity in question actually had a higher rank in that crystal sphere. 2e Tyr is the perfect example. Out in the planes, he's an intermediate power. In order to stop his decline, he concetrated his influence in Realmspace, becoming a greater power of justice (outside of Faerūn he held the portfolios of courage, law, and swordmanship). Similar things happened with Loviatar and Mielikki. I can't think of a case where the opposite happened. Presumably, if a deity's single-sphere rank fell below his "original" rank, he could maintain it at it's original level. then again, I might just be forgetting things. Regards. That's inductive reasoning. Not something really used commonly in modern Western debate forums.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 02:32 AM	But, that's exactly what happened. In the old Legends & Lore accessory, during the time of cyrstal spheres and multospheric deities, the Egyptian panthon (described in Legends & Lore) was different from the mulhorandi pantheon. Horus and Ra were separate deities, and the pantheon numbered more than 10 powers. The events that took place in FR changed the Realmspace aspects of the Egyptian (there known as Mulhorandi) pantheon, like the merging of Horus and Ra into Horus-Re during the Orcgate wars. 2E updated deific entities. Most of the divine ranks in 3e were directly taken from older 1e/2e sources, when Horus-Re (in his original aspect of Ra) ruled as the head of the Egyptian pantheon over the countless Prime worlds. There were no DvRs in 1E and 2E. (Numerically.) But, switching to the 3e perspective of separate universes, he might have created the Mulan humans, back in the world in which they originated. Remember, the mulan were transported to Faerūn by the ancient Imaskari, and they brought their gods with them. Even if he did, that's still only a subsection of humanity of Earth - a population that has no innate ties to Realmspace. I think that Lathander and Horus-Re should wholly be on the same power level, one on one. I just think that Lathander has the more numerous and more powerful deific allies.
PharaunMizzrym 05-24-07, 02:34 AM	Not all humans are native to Faerun. The fact that all huymans are biologically the same does not negate the fact that some are interlopers, just like the elves and dwarves. Only some of hte humans are native and therefore part of the Creator races. Even then there is debate among sages as to who is part of the creator races.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 02:42 AM	But, for the most part, Moradin created ALL of the dwarves in the multiverse. Corellon created ALL of the Elves in the multiverse. Heck, if I remember my Egyptian myth correctly, neither Horus nor Re even created humanity. There were much older gods that did such things. Amun and Ptah were both older and more significant divine cosmic figures, if not as 'active' as Horus or Re.
PharaunMizzrym 05-24-07, 02:46 AM	Which came first, AO or the space hampsters. And with that I will be retiring for the night. I want to leave this forum with this question: should the Faerunian pantheon absorb the Mulhorandi pntheon, will it then seek to absorb the pantheons of Kara-Tur and Maztica?
GothicDan 05-24-07, 02:49 AM	EDIT: I think they should stay how they are, for a long time.
Perun 05-24-07, 03:06 AM	That's inductive reasoning. Not something really used commonly in modern Western debate forums. Eh, what? So, regardless on whether my reasoning is good (and I'm not saying it is), it's automatically invalid because it's "not something really used commonly in modern Western debate forums"? 2E updated deific entities. There was a 2e Legends & Lore (which I was referring to). But, regardless, the most recent 2e source on deities was Planescape accessory On Hallowed Grounds, which uses the Egyxptian pantheon (nearly) identical to the one presented in (2e) Legends and Lore. There were no DvRs in 1E and 2E. (Numerically.) I was referring to non-numerical divine ranks (greater, intermediate, lesser, demipower). Even if he did, that's still only a subsection of humanity of Earth - a population that has no innate ties to Realmspace. If he did, it's a subsection of humanity he created. Like the elves are only a subsection of "humanoidity" Corellon created. I think that Lathander and Horus-Re should wholly be on the same power level, one on one. I just think that Lathander has the more numerous and more powerful deific allies. I agree, in part. They should both be (and are) greater powers. However, I believe that Horus-Re should have a higher divine rank than Lathander (all things considered). I wholy agree on the second point.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 03:10 AM	Out of pure curiosity, does Horus-Re have "Mulan humans" or the like in their portfolio, like Corellon does Elves? I think that'll settle that discussion, right there. Because, again, I don't think there's anything that's even stated that he created humanity, or Horus or Re, in Egyptian legends. Since I really don't think he created humanity (even in real life myth), he'd be in the same case as Lolth. Pantheon head who didn't actually create their worshippers, so there's no reason for him to get any special power boost because of it. Eh, what? So, regardless on whether my reasoning is good (and I'm not saying it is), it's automatically invalid because it's "not something really used commonly in modern Western debate forums"? Inductive logic is largely ignored because it looks at specific cases of things and tries to apply them in general with no actual sensical evidence that such a thing is true.
Perun 05-24-07, 05:06 AM	While we can generally agree that we agree on most things relevant to this discussion, the post below is just to show how confusing things can get when one references several rules from several game editions. Deity rules are especially cofusing, since they've never been clearly defined (presumably since deities play only a minor role in the vast majority of games; and minor in the sence that they don't directly interfere, but rather act through cleric and worshippers). Out of pure curiosity, does Horus-Re have "Mulan humans" or the like in their portfolio, like Corellon does Elves? I think that'll settle that discussion, right there. You're right, he doesn't. But a deity doesn't have to have a specific race (or subrace) as part of his or her portfolio in order to be a patron of that race (or subrace). The Great Mother and Ilsensine, both greater deities, are examples of such cases. (Except for the table on p. 124 of the Complete Divine, where they loose all of their original portfolios, and gain only the racial portfolio, they never had before (3e F&P, 2e Monster Mythology, On Hallowed Ground). Because, again, I don't think there's anything that's even stated that he created humanity, or Horus or Re, in Egyptian legends. Legends & Lore (2e; downloadable for free here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads), in rtf format, it's near the bottom of the page) attributed the creation of humans to Ra (they were created from his tears). Since I really don't think he created humanity (even in real life myth), he'd be in the same case as Lolth. Pantheon head who didn't actually create their worshippers, so there's no reason for him to get any special power boost because of it. In real life, Egyptians had a number of myths dealing with the creation of humankind. A simple Google search reveals one such myth attributed creation of humans to Khnum, a god practically unknown in any D&D version of the Egyptian mythos. Inductive logic is largely ignored because it looks at specific cases of things and tries to apply them in general with no actual sensical evidence that such a thing is true. I used that reasoning because, as far as I can remember, there was never a hard and fast rule about multispheric deities' (non-numerical) deific rank. Pre-3e, of course. I quickly skimmed through On Hallowed Ground, but couldn't find anything definitive. "Belonging to Multiple Pantheons" section (p. 38) only seems to talk about deities gaining power by joining different pantheons/crystal spheres. If you have a counter example (a multispheric deity having his deific rank reduced on a particular Prime world), or can reference a rule regarding such events (pre-3e), I'd be really grateful. Regards.
PharaunMizzrym 05-24-07, 05:27 AM	Too bad I missed the first two generations of D&D. I apologize in advance if some of the more technical aspects of the game are less tknown to me, third edition and 3.5 are far too brief. I wouldn't mind a book purely on game mechanics and game philosophy without more prestige classes, feats, etc. It all comes down to Horus-Re's divine rank being determined by the DM (if its even needed), until such time as a canon answer is written/published. Perun, I appreciate you backing up my take on things better than I ever could, and GothicDan you do raise up many valid points. The creation of the Mulan may be lost to time, it is unclear how much Horus-Re knows given that he is a fusion of two deities. When it comes to pantheon collisions, what will be the most likely effect the Dragonfall Wars will have upon the Faerunian Mulhorandi conflict?
customdrapery 05-24-07, 10:05 AM	Even if Horus-Re has a greater divine rank than Lathander, and I'm not saying that he does, it doesn't mean that he could destroy him outright. At the beginning of Faiths and Avatars it mentions that Greater Powers can destroy other Greater Powers given enough time, resources, etc. Then it throws in the allies bit. Lathander and Horus-Re both have allies and if the Faerunian Pantheon made an effort to destroy the Mulhorandi Pantheon, you can bet that the rest of the Mulhorandi would rally to the cause of Horus-Re and Lathander would have the help of some very powerful deities from the Faerunian Pantheon. But, of course, that requires that NG god of Dawn and Rebirth would actually try to take out a LG god of the Sun. That just seems silly (even given the whole slavery issue). I think it more likely that the two would merge as a result of some sort of new Dawn Cataclysm. I remember reading here a while back (someone's home game, I believe) that had Lathander/Amaunator merged with Horus-Re (Amaun-Horus-Re or something?), that seems like a more likely scenario. We also can't forget that Lathander is much more than simply a sort of sun god, he's also got Athletics and Self-Perfection, which puts him at odds with Anhur (Physical Prowess), and he's got creativity. I think he's only making a play for the Highsun aspect to give himself a boost in power. Of course, maybe if he could re-design the Faerunian Pantheon (like the Dawn Cataclysm) and he could become the Head of that Pantheon, that might give him the power boost he would need. Why do "heads of pantheons" get any sort of power boost?
Perun 05-24-07, 11:43 AM	Of course, maybe if he could re-design the Faerunian Pantheon (like the Dawn Cataclysm) and he could become the Head of that Pantheon, that might give him the power boost he would need. Why do "heads of pantheons" get any sort of power boost? I don't think there's an official 3(.5) answer to that. All I can offer is a quote from the (excellent) 2e PS accessory On Hallowed Ground: A group of gods bands together for a reason: to understand the ebb and flow of the multiverse. If they can rely on a greater power to hold them together, they can concentrate on studying their specialties and report findings back to the head of the pantheon. Thus, the greater power absorbs the knowledge of all others in the pantheon and filters a unified understanding back to the other gods, giving them a clear picture of what's happening in th emultiverse. In other words, belonging to a pantheon increases a deity's influence and knoweldge a hundredfold. Regards.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 02:24 PM	You're right, he doesn't. But a deity doesn't have to have a specific race (or subrace) as part of his or her portfolio in order to be a patron of that race (or subrace). The Great Mother and Ilsensine, both greater deities, are examples of such cases. (Except for the table on p. 124 of the Complete Divine, where they loose all of their original portfolios, and gain only the racial portfolio, they never had before (3e F&P, 2e Monster Mythology, On Hallowed Ground). We're arguing numerical divine rank, though, not just a matter of being a Greater God or not. Do we have DvRs for those two deities? I obviously agree that Horus-Re should have Greater status. Legends & Lore (2e; downloadable for free here, in rtf format, it's near the bottom of the page) attributed the creation of humans to Ra (they were created from his tears). But many other pantheons attribute their OWN godheads to being the divine creator. In the D&D cosmology at large, Corellon was, without a doubt, the creator of 99% of the Elves in the multiverse, just as Moradin was the Dwarves, and so on. That's the difference I'm trying to show. In real life, Egyptians had a number of myths dealing with the creation of humankind. A simple Google search reveals one such myth attributed creation of humans to Khnum, a god practically unknown in any D&D version of the Egyptian mythos. I imagine it's been attributed to Atun and Ptah, too, or perhaps Amun, or even more esoteric gods. Does this mean that they should all automatically get DvR 18 in AD&D, though? I would say no, because they are not universally worshipped as the creator deities of human kind - none of them. I used that reasoning because, as far as I can remember, there was never a hard and fast rule about multispheric deities' (non-numerical) deific rank. Pre-3e, of course. I quickly skimmed through On Hallowed Ground, but couldn't find anything definitive. "Belonging to Multiple Pantheons" section (p. 38) only seems to talk about deities gaining power by joining different pantheons/crystal spheres. If you have a counter example (a multispheric deity having his deific rank reduced on a particular Prime world), or can reference a rule regarding such events (pre-3e), I'd be really grateful. I don't have books handy, so I'll have to concede to you here, for the moment, merely by default. But I was almost sure there was at least one case. And even if there wasn't - you really can't look at a handful of deities that we know of and try to apply the rule to all of the thousands in the multiverse. That's why I was saying it was inductive logic, and I wasn't very swayed by it (personally).
Pystian 05-24-07, 02:35 PM	This is the most fascinating thread I've read on the D&D boards. Double kudos for it not devolving into a flame war. Do you see any chance of an Azuth/Mystra relationship evolving? I can't imagine either Lathander, who wanted to lead a pantheon, or Horus-Re, who currently leads a pantheon, happily stepping down and letting the other take charge of the Sun portfolio. I know this isn't really quite the same situation, but consider that Selune, who is responsible for creating a lot of the Realms (including the sun, coincidentally), was subservient to Sune for a while.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 02:40 PM	I would actually love to see more emphasis put on Azuth in the setting. Azuth is one of my favorite deities, but when it comes right down to it, I don't see him gaining much in power. His power is DIRECTLY related to the number of spellcasters and those that worship him, as opposed to Mystra, whose power is also linked to the Weave and all magical phenomena. In general, deities of 'classes' aren't nearly as powerful as deities with broader concepts (examples include Leira, Bhaal, Azuth, Velsharoon, Savras, Torm).
PharaunMizzrym 05-24-07, 03:10 PM	Selune did start as a greater god, on par with Shar. She became an intermediate god when she ripped the essence of magic out of herself and hurled it at Shar (which created Mystra). Shar was probably also an intermediate deity until the creation (or her discovery) of the shadow weave which filled the gap where her essence of magic had been. Selune's fall from greater power was in a way a voluntary choice, and is a bit of an exception considering that it occured before creation. Not to get too off topic, but is AO considered an uber deity? Are uberdeity and overdeity the same or different? Uber deities have divine ranks over twenty. Can AO even be assigned numerical values to his power, as he appears to be omnipotent? Overdeity often implies omnipotence (or near omnipotence), so that sounds more like the answer. Would AO allow a deity to rise into the uber levels? I know this sounds off topic, but after I get other opinions on this matter I plan to tie it into the original topic.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 03:14 PM	She became an intermediate god when she ripped the essence of magic out of herself and hurled it at Shar (which created Mystra). Selune was a Greater God during Netheril. Her power waxes and wanes over the millennia. Some say she is on a 'rise' now. Also... There's no such thing as an uberdeity. ;) It's Overgod. AO is an Overgod, and was an Overgod before they had such things as divine ranks. I do not think he should be statted. Then again, I think none of the deities should be statted. Even divine rank (beyond demigod, lesser, etc.) is pushing it. And no, AO would not allow this. It's one of the (several, some unknown) reasons why Mystra created her Chosen. She was too powerful, so AO had her disperse her power amongst Chosen. It's also dispersed partially to Azuth, Savras, and the like, and probably in part the Magister. If she 'pulled in' all of her powers again (which AO wouldn't allow) she'd probably be DvR 20+ in my opinion.
PharaunMizzrym 05-24-07, 03:34 PM	I agree with most of what you said, though disagree that there is no such thing as an uber deity. They are briefly discussed in Deities and Demigods. There are no existing ones, though it is not impossible for them to exist. AO merely chooses to not allow them in Realmspace.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 03:40 PM	Uh. 'Uberdeity' is a made up term... Actually.. Maybe it's not. I don't own the book. I've just never, ever heard of it. Overdeities, sure. Uberdeity just seems ridiculously stupid.
Drew1369r 05-24-07, 03:41 PM	Apart form fan speculation there is no evidence the Pantheons will merge. Actually its in the first paragragh on tempus in Faiths and Pantheons
PharaunMizzrym 05-24-07, 03:52 PM	Uberdeities have never (to my knowledge) been used in D&D, what they are is briefly detailed in Deities and Demigods. I look at the existence uberdeities as being possible though has not ever come to pass, nor s ever likely to come to pass in a stable D&D world. Only when balance and stability near their final breaking point will such a thing come to pass.
msatran 05-24-07, 05:28 PM	Well, the problem is that Chauntea still has the power to drag Lathander around by the ear and say things like 'Oh, honey, don't do that. That would be stupid." Chauntea won't fight anything! Farmers everywhere will suffer if this happens.
Zardnaar 05-24-07, 05:46 PM	I have a formula that is more or less almost certain to work when comparing power between the gods. It works something like this. Divine Rank/Power< Cheesy TSR/WoTC metaplot Works every time.
PharaunMizzrym 05-24-07, 06:42 PM	Sounds like the official formula. If Lathander did slay Horus-Re, he would noyt be able to absorb all of Horus-Re's power (and vice versa). Said deity would have two options. 1) Share the power with other deities. 2) Create many Chosen (as how Mystra would be overpowered if she kept all of her power within herself). Lathander could give several DvRs to Sylune, effectively returning her to greater deity status in exchange for her teaming up with him to deal with Shar (doubt shed turn him down). He could also resurrect Amaunator and bind him to service (while trying to make him LG the whole time). He could use his newfound power to surround all the planes in a poopy mythal. :rolleyes: He might also give some DvRs to Kelemvor, since both send crusades against the undead. Maybe even make Helm a greater deity to help heal the rift left between them after the Dawn Cataclysm.
The Ubbergeek 05-24-07, 07:19 PM	With gods, things are never set clear, and it's not TSR/WOTC. Perhaps a god have a chance hit? Perhaps a powerfull artefact? Perhaps a dark ritual? Lower gods can trumps powerfull ones, it's a part of myths. Heck, in some myths, MORTALS beat gods...
PharaunMizzrym 05-24-07, 07:28 PM	We have such a myth. Its the ToT.;)
The Ubbergeek 05-25-07, 01:37 AM	We have such a myth. Its the ToT.;) Yes but I was implying also in the real world and other fantasy works.
PharaunMizzrym 05-25-07, 01:39 AM	I know. Just giving the Faerunian example.
Razz 05-30-07, 11:08 PM	Amun and Ptah were both older and more significant divine cosmic figures, if not as 'active' as Horus or Re. You're right. In fact, it's mentioned in Powers&Pantheons that Ao contacted Ptah in his crystal sphere and it was Ptah who sent Re and the others to Realmspace. This implies that Ptah is the Overgod of whatever crystal sphere they all came from and is most likely the deity of the Mulan themselves.
Razz 05-30-07, 11:19 PM	Also... There's no such thing as an uberdeity. ;) It's Overgod. AO is an Overgod, and was an Overgod before they had such things as divine ranks. Actually...there are uber-deities...don't forget what happened at the end of the Avatar Series. Ao also has Over-Overgods that he is subservient to, as evident at the end of those novels. I do not think he should be statted. Then again, I think none of the deities should be statted. Even divine rank (beyond demigod, lesser, etc.) is pushing it. Then you look on the other side of the fence and you have those like myself that could use deity stats. I have yet to use them and the day may never come that I'll have to use them...but if it does come along, I'm prepared thanks to 3E Deities&Demigods :D Actually, it might be really soon. My players have a group of epic-level characters that really ****** off Kiaransalee in the City of the Spider Queen adventure book and her avatar just might actually be the challenge they're looking for. :D
Meldread 05-31-07, 05:17 AM	Ah, I'm glad this thread popped back up. I was reading something unrelated in Power of Faerun the other day and I stumbled upon something that lends more weight to my theory. The war between the Mulhorandi and Faerunian Pantheon may already be under way... I draw attention to page 28 in Power of Faerun, written by Ed Greenwood and Eric L. Boyd. Untheric Crusade: For three years, the armies of Mulhorand have slowly pushed into Unther, claiming more and more of their once-powerful rival's territory for Pharoah Horustep III. By the end of the Year of Rogue Dragons (1373 DR), Mulhorand had conquered all of Unther except the city of Messemprar, and its armies threatened to lay siege to that city once the rainy season (winter) had passed despite frenzied attacks by small flights of dragons from the Riders of the Sky mountains. Early in the Year of Lightning Storms (1374 DR), two events changed the thrust of this war. First, the Banite templars of the Black Lord's Altar in Mourktar marched forth to the defense of Messemprar, reinforcing the besieged defenders of that city. Early successes by the Banites were attributed to a massive influx of magical weaponry from Thay sold to the church of Bane at cut-rate prices. Second, the Shussel-folk who disappeared from their city in the mysterious event known as the Vanishing have reappeared in Shussel as the Legion of Nanna-Sin. According to reports, the Shussel-folk were taken to the "lost" plane of Zigguraxus by Nanna-Sin (who might be an aspect of Selune), transformed into aasimar, and trained as elite warriors. Now the Legion has returned, opening a new front against the rear flank of Mulhorand's forward armies.
Razz 05-31-07, 08:12 AM	Ah, I'm glad this thread popped back up. I was reading something unrelated in Power of Faerun the other day and I stumbled upon something that lends more weight to my theory. The war between the Mulhorandi and Faerunian Pantheon may already be under way... I draw attention to page 28 in Power of Faerun, written by Ed Greenwood and Eric L. Boyd. That's not a war between pantheons, more of a war between two nations who so happen to have taken in Bane as their ally in Unther considering all the other Untheric deities either left or are dead. Assuran and Tiamat (whose actually part of TWO pantheons, Untheric and Draconic) are all that's left. Well, I think Mystra is, too, since Ao said is Mask wanted to be a part of the Mulhorandi pantheon then someone would have to join the Untheric one to balance it out and Mystra took the cue. Considering Bahamut's making a HUGE come back, maybe Marduk's returned too?
customdrapery 05-31-07, 10:43 AM	That's a good find Meldread. I would imagine that any war between pantheons would probably start as a war between nations. Given the total loss of their pantheon, it seems that they are reaching out to any that will help them, and the Faerunian pantheon will probably love to get in there and stem the spread of the Mulhorandi Pantheon. This looks to me like we've got a war started that is backed by different pantheons on different sides. Bane and Selune (odd combination, but appropriate if it's pantheon vs. pantheon) on one side and the Mulhorandi Pantheon on the other. This is all very curious to me since if I were an Untherite, I'd be glad that the goodly aligned Mulhorandi were taking me over. Why would they want the help of the Banites?
Meldread 05-31-07, 01:58 PM	This is all very curious to me since if I were an Untherite, I'd be glad that the goodly aligned Mulhorandi were taking me over. Why would they want the help of the Banites? Because it isn't like Mulhorand asked nicely. They came in, armies marching, and basically occupied the country, slapping down any who stood in their way. At least this is my understanding. Thay obviously does not want Mulhorand to grow in power, so that is why they are helping the Banites. Mulhorand is still bent on retaking Thay. Bane and Selune are not exactly working together, but separately toward a common cause - pushing Mulhorand out of Unther. However, this is just my understanding of what I've read. I think you are right that any war between pantheons will start as a war between nations. After all, they will only have a reason to go to war once their spheres of influence begin to cross paths. The Faerunian deities also know that Mulhorand isn't going to stop if they take Unther - they are going to keep heading west. That brings them into direct conflict with Chessenta - the cradle of Lathander's faith. Most of the other Lathanderites look at Chessentan Lathanderites as "backward" but that is changing, and they are showing strong renewed interest. If you step back and look at the big picture the pieces begin to fall into place. Look at the entire region, who has a stake in what happens, what mortals are doing, and think about the impact it will have on the deities... and you can easily see the potential for future conflict. Can the conflict be avoided? Sure. Any conflict can be avoided. However, at the moment they seem to be heading on a collision course toward each other and it does not seem to me that they are interested in swerving out of the way.
Perun 05-31-07, 02:44 PM	I don't have books handy, so I'll have to concede to you here, for the moment, merely by default. But I was almost sure there was at least one case. And even if there wasn't - you really can't look at a handful of deities that we know of and try to apply the rule to all of the thousands in the multiverse. That's why I was saying it was inductive logic, and I wasn't very swayed by it (personally). And here I myself wrong :) After going through the P&P write-ups of the Mulhorandi and Untheric deities, I read Gilgeam's entry. He's an example where a multispheric deity's FR aspect was of a lower rank than the original deity. FR version of Gilgeam went to a Demipower status, whereas his true essence was an Intermediate power. Regards.
Perun 05-31-07, 02:52 PM	That's not a war between pantheons, more of a war between two nations who so happen to have taken in Bane as their ally in Unther considering all the other Untheric deities either left or are dead. Assuran and Tiamat (whose actually part of TWO pantheons, Untheric and Draconic) are all that's left. Well, I think Mystra is, too, since Ao said is Mask wanted to be a part of the Mulhorandi pantheon then someone would have to join the Untheric one to balance it out and Mystra took the cue. IIRC, it was Bast/Sharess. She and Mask were allowed to have presence in both pantheons. I find it highly intriguing that another deity is posing as an old Untheric god (Nanna-Sin), not because of the posing itself (it's been done before after all, Beshaba playing the role of Shaundakul in Anauroch, for example) but because a deity from one pantheon is taking on the role of a deity from entirely different pantheon which, officially, does not exist any more (since Assuran and Tiamat both joined Faerūnian pantheon). That's like putting a third variable into a two-variable equation. And although Nanna-Sin makes perfect choice for Selūne (his only portfolio was "the moon", a portfolio Selūne already holds), the choice of Shussel for the whole Legion of Nanna-Sin is weird, since it is (was?) the site of Ishtar's major temple (her incarnation lived there before the ToT!), and Ishtar is an aspect of Isis. I'd assume a large number of Shussel population worshipped Ishtar as their patron deity. Also, Old Gods (Enlil, Marduk, Nanna-Sin, and Utu -- Untheric gods not having presence in Realms in recent history) were worshipped in Unther even though they didn't grant spells (well, in 2e their clerics used to get spells of up to 2nd level, since those were powered by faith alone), all legal and allowed by Gilgeam. Does this recent "comeback" of "Nanna-Sin" means his priests in temples of the Old Gods started receiving spells. This divine posing also means stepping on Hathor's (Hathelya's) toes who's, among other things, also a goddess of the moon. Which also brings the point customdrapery mentioned -- most, if not all, Mulhorandi deities were already present (or at least known) in some way or form in Unther. Ishtar (Isis) and Ramman (Anhur) are the obvious two examples, but all other Mulhorandi deities have Untheric names (Geb is Gebakopet, Hathor is Hathelya, Horus-Re is Hokatep, Nephthys is Neselthia, Osiris is Ozrikotep, Sebek is Sebakar, Set is Typhon (but also does some posing as Gilgeam, according to the P&P), and Thoth is Thalatos). It would be really interesting if the old Untheric gods (sans Gilgeam, since he's been killed by Tiamat) were coming back. If at least some Untherites continued worshipping the Old Gods, that means there was a continuig request for their return, and Ao might, in theory, allow it. Although, given the recent talk about reducing the number of deities in FR, I thinkg there's very little chance of it being true.
customdrapery 05-31-07, 04:00 PM	I'm going to have to go back and review my Untheric deities because it seems like there may be a take over of their portolios by either Faerunian or Mulhorandi deities. If Selune is posing as Nanna-Sin and if Shusselites were major Ishtar/Isis worshipers that seems like Selune is stepping on Isis' toes and provoking a major conflict. What if Selune is Isis (or has taken her out and replaced her without someone noticing)? I agree with you Meldread, I think the majority of Untherites would be pretty upset at their old enemy Mulhorand suddenly taking over and would be willing to buddy up to anyone willing to help. I think I read somewhere that the freed slaves from Unther were enjoying better treatment by the Mulhorands than the Untherites. Probably what I was thinking. I still find it weird that both Bane and Selune have similar goals, are they both simply interested in keeping Mulhorand from spreading?
Perun 05-31-07, 04:37 PM	I'm going to have to go back and review my Untheric deities because it seems like there may be a take over of their portolios by either Faerunian or Mulhorandi deities. There's really not all that much, AFAIK. Shortly before the ToT, common deities worshipped in Unther were Gilgeam, Ishtar (actually Isis), Ramman, and Tiamat. Marduk, Nanna-Sin, and Utu were all killed (well, their Realms manifestations, really) during the Orcgate Wars. Original Ishtar left sometime after, passing her divine mantle to Ishtar, and Enlil abdicated (and left FR) in favour of his son, Gilgeam. It's interesting that the Old Empires says: The first big change occurred when many of the Sumerian deities died in the Orcgate Wars. The Untheri found many new gods and goddesses to worship, all belonging to the Babylonian pantheon. However, P&P lists several Babylonian deities dying in the Orcgate Wars (Innana, Ki, Nanna-Sin, Utu, and Enlil are Sumerian deities (according to the On Hallowed Ground), and Girru, Marduk, Nergal, and Ishtar are Babylonian deities; Assuran is not mentioned in OHG). If Selune is posing as Nanna-Sin and if Shusselites were major Ishtar/Isis worshipers that seems like Selune is stepping on Isis' toes and provoking a major conflict. What if Selune is Isis (or has taken her out and replaced her without someone noticing)? I don't think Selūne can replace Isis just like that. It's realy weird, that Shussel event. I'd really like there to be some clarification on that. I agree with you Meldread, I think the majority of Untherites would be pretty upset at their old enemy Mulhorand suddenly taking over and would be willing to buddy up to anyone willing to help. I think I read somewhere that the freed slaves from Unther were enjoying better treatment by the Mulhorands than the Untherites. Probably what I was thinking. Slaves in Mulhorand are pretty well off, as slaves go. They're generally taken care of, and are usually no worse than the free peasants of other countries. Untherite upper class, being of pure Mulan stock, will probably support the Mulhorandi faction. Given the choice of northern barbarians and another Mulan (or partly Mulan) force, I'd expect their racial loyalty to prevail. Both Ishtar and Ramman have been worshipped in Unther for centuries, and I'd guess they are fairly influential now that the Supreme Ruler of Unther is no longer there to put limits on their priesthoods. Ishtar in particular, since she governs over some pretty important aspects of everyday lives (weather, agriculture, love, marriage, rivers). I suppose, since their priesthoods are already a part of Unther's everyday lives, that'd give Mulhorandi pantheon a headstart.
Perun 05-31-07, 04:51 PM	Well, I think Mystra is, too, since Ao said is Mask wanted to be a part of the Mulhorandi pantheon then someone would have to join the Untheric one to balance it out and Mystra took the cue. IIRC, it was Bast/Sharess. She and Mask were allowed to have presence in both pantheons. Just to add, Assuran was allowed to join the Faerūnian pantheon in exchange for Mystra's access to Unther.