Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Slayergnome 06-27-07, 09:57 AM	In the Deities of FoG book it stats that long ago Lathander enacted a rite of his own creation to rid the world of Toril of evil. This plot failed but in the process of its failure it slew many demi-gods and deities. Partially the reason Helm dislikes Lathander is his lover at the time was one of the victims. Also in the write up about Lathander is goes on to say he hasn't learned the error of his ways and continues to work towards re-enacting the ritual and destroying the evil deities and therefore all evil on Toril (which is his belief..not shared by me personally). He also hates Shar most of all of the evil deities as he believes she is responsible for his rituals failure. Now I have a game that i'll be starting soon which involves a Paladin/Monk and a Cleric of Lathander. I was looking for peoples take on Lathanders course of action and how he might get it successfully done. Or what the ritual he created might be and what it would require to enact. I've looked for some more information this whole ritual and Lathander's past (At least while he was Lathander) without much success. Any ideas on this? I have some of my own but wanted to tap the collective FoG junkies out there for some brainstorming.
XHereticX 06-27-07, 10:08 AM	In the Deities of FoG book it stats that long ago Lathander enacted a rite of his own creation to rid the world of Toril of evil. This plot failed but in the process of its failure it slew many demi-gods and deities. Partially the reason Helm dislikes Lathander is his lover at the time was one of the victims. Also in the write up about Lathander is goes on to say he hasn't learned the error of his ways and continues to work towards re-enacting the ritual and destroying the evil deities and therefore all evil on Toril (which is his belief..not shared by me personally). He also hates Shar most of all of the evil deities as he believes she is responsible for his rituals failure. Now I have a game that i'll be starting soon which involves a Paladin/Monk and a Cleric of Lathander. I was looking for peoples take on Lathanders course of action and how he might get it successfully done. Or what the ritual he created might be and what it would require to enact. I've looked for some more information this whole ritual and Lathander's past (At least while he was Lathander) without much success. Any ideas on this? I have some of my own but wanted to tap the collective FoG junkies out there for some brainstorming. Yup, the event was called the Dawn Cataclysm. It was when Lathander attempted to reshape the entire Faerunian Pantheon in his own vision (which means no evil gods and a lot of neutral gods would be going as well). Thankfully, he failed (probably because of Shar or just his own stupidity), but killed a lot of deities such as Helm's lover. Lathander currently is suspected of preparing for another Dawn Cataclysm, a few deities like Chauntea and Selune know about it but haven't spoken up because they believe what Lathander is doing could not be more dangerous than just letting evil run free. This could prove extrememly dangerous for Toril and its deities as Lathander clearly has not learned his lesson and is still the naive fool his portfolio makes him be. Following is not canon but may be a fun campaign idea: Lathander may be trying to use the Dawn Cataclysm to regain his ancient power as Amaunthor the Noontide Sun and rule supreme over a pantheon in his own vision. This seems to correspond with the heresies of the Sunmasters and their desires to put Lathander as overlord of the Faerunian Pantheon. I can say that if Lathander actually revealed he would attempt such a thing, most of the deities in the pantheon would fiercely and actively oppose his actions, including many good ones.
Slayergnome 06-27-07, 10:54 AM	Lathander may be trying to use the Dawn Cataclysm to regain his ancient power as Amaunthor the Noontide Sun and rule supreme over a pantheon in his own vision. This seems to correspond with the heresies of the Sunmasters and their desires to put Lathander as overlord of the Faerunian Pantheon. I can say that if Lathander actually revealed he would attempt such a thing, most of the deities in the pantheon would fiercely and actively oppose his actions, including many good ones. Are you talking Ao status or just the leading God in the Pantheon?
XHereticX 06-27-07, 11:00 AM	Are you talking Ao status or just the leading God in the Pantheon? Just leading god. I don't think Lathander is that ambitious.
customdrapery 06-27-07, 11:09 AM	I'm not sure there is a general consensus about what Lathander is up to. There has been some pretty good discussion of what this new "Dawn Cataclysm" might be. There has been some talk that it will involve the merging of the Faerunian and the Mulhorandi Pantheons and that it will involve Lathander claiming the aspect of High Sun. He holds "dawn" currently and seems to be making moves to claim High Sun (possibly from Horus-Re). My own personal pet theory is that Lathander's Incantations somehow involve stealing/removing portfolios or splitting deities portfolios amongst several deities. There has also been some discussion about what benefits there are from being the "head of a pantheon". It seems there is a power-boost for those who are considered the heads of their respective pantheons, not Ao powerful, but definitely a gain in Divine Rank. I think any plot that Lathander is working on will have to involve attacking Shar and/or Cyric pretty directly. I haven't worked out in my head how that might go yet though, so any thoughts on that would be helpful.
Slayergnome 06-27-07, 11:30 AM	Lathander is one of the older and more powerful gods out there. Or so it states in his little blurb in the Faiths book. He has some close allies in the neutral and nature departments who know of his plots. So it might be save to assume it has something to do with their world and they think the gains outweigh the risks...and you can only assume its partially out to rid Toril of evil. I am just not quite sure how he would do it.
Zsych 06-27-07, 06:47 PM	Amanataur(sp?) is dead. Sitting in the astral waiting for someone to resurrect him. Lathandar should offer him a few worshippers for the job :) --- I wonder.. with the way the god of death not being around stopped death. God of magic not being around kills magic. Auppensor dying could possibly destroy psionics... What would the death of all the evil gods do? Stop the ability of people to be evil?
Slayergnome 06-27-07, 10:45 PM	Well I wouldn't say it gets rid of the thing they are god of. It just makes that certain thing loses its guiding force. Like when the goddess of Magic died..magic went haywire. I think the evil of humanity is what powers the gods of evil not the other way around. But I am liking the connection between the different pantheons and perhaps merging them..and being the new great sun.
Balafre 06-28-07, 09:44 AM	Lathander is an extremist to fashion a pantheon in his image is as fascist as Evil Gods trying to rule the world What's so GOOD about that!!!
BrennonGoldeye 06-28-07, 12:22 PM	Lathander is an extremist to fashion a pantheon in his image is as fascist as Evil Gods trying to rule the world What's so GOOD about that!!! It's only extremist if you don't agree with it. ;) Besides, after Tyche gave Him the Bad Luck Kissoff He was doomed. :embarrass
Micheal_Roele 06-28-07, 05:01 PM	It's only extremist if you don't agree with it. ;) Besides, after Tyche gave Him the Bad Luck Kissoff He was doomed. :embarrass Exactly....I am sure Lathander's worshippers would think it is a good thing. If Lathander could deliver a way to get rid of Shar, Bane, and Cyric, he would swell his ranks of followers, other Gods would cheer him on, and a whole Crusade would start. Shadowdale would be cheering him on, especially if Bane was on the list.... It isn't an evil act to wipe out evil deities. Maybe Lathander just feels he is the best person to lead the pantheon. It doesn't serve the balance, but then again, good doesn't always have to concern themselves with balance. Personally it is a cool idea, having a Good Deity strike out first for once instead of being reactive to some Evil Deity's plot. It would be nice to have some plots without Mystra, one of her Chosen, Lolth, or some kind of Drow Elf once in awhile. Maybe the heroes of the story serve Helm or Tyr, and are trying to stop Lathander from disturbing the balance.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-28-07, 05:10 PM	Lathander is a fool, it will never work. You cant get rid of evil it will just remanifest into something else. Their has to be a balance between the 2. You cant have ying without the yang. If he manages to destroy all evil on Toril, even among the deities I'm sure Ao or a new god will step up and fill the role as Evil. Ao may even say F*** this and destroy Toril and start from scratch.
Slayergnome 06-28-07, 06:49 PM	Well the game im working out has currently: Paladin/Monk of Lathander. Cleric of Lathander. Half-Orc Barbarian. (I dunno) Elf Ranger (worships elf pantheon) So I was sorta thinking they would be working towards helping Lathanders goal..without really knowing it. Then finally it might come to slap them in the face what he is doing. I am sure the Elf would be against it as it puts his own gods at risk...and those of the Unther Pantheon. The fact that Helm has a huge fortress in the Dalelands and LAthander has a huge church in Shadowdale...is just somewhat ironic I do believe. I plan on having Helm and Bane be the major resistance against the Lathander Plot. I'm thinking it'll be something akin to Lathander needs to have collected and enacted several rites or actions (perhaps collecting stuff to combine to be worn by his avatar..) and if he does so he'll be reborn as Amanataur(sp?) where his power will increase as well his chances for portfolios. I would assume some sorta power struggle would occur between helm and himself..which could truly change the face of the Pantheon...or destroy one..or have replacements etc etc. What do you think of that?
XHereticX 06-28-07, 07:09 PM	I agree wholeheartedly with Wrath of Talos's view of Lathander, a deranged, fanaticist, supremist, blinded, misguided fool of a deity who will end up destroying the way divinity works on Toril with his twisted visions. Just imagine this kind of campaign, the Church of Lathander launches a "purification crusade" to cleanse Toril of all "misguided." Thousands, both actual villains and innocents are slaughtered because they are consitered "impure" by the church, all while Lathander starts a godswar in the heavens. PCs must stop Lathander's mad plot with all the reasonable clergies that oppose Lathander, most notably Bane and Helm's. The Triad should also oppose Lathander strongly for his foolish and misguided abuse of justice. Its will be an epic campaign that will hopefully end with the demise of one of my least favorite deities.;)
Balafre 06-29-07, 02:47 AM	I agree wholeheartedly with Wrath of Talos's view of Lathander, a deranged, fanaticist, supremist, blinded, misguided fool of a deity who will end up destroying the way divinity works on Toril with his twisted visions. Just imagine this kind of campaign, the Church of Lathander launches a "purification crusade" to cleanse Toril of all "misguided." Thousands, both actual villains and innocents are slaughtered because they are consitered "impure" by the church, all while Lathander starts a godswar in the heavens. PCs must stop Lathander's mad plot with all the reasonable clergies that oppose Lathander, most notably Bane and Helm's. The Triad should also oppose Lathander strongly for his foolish and misguided abuse of justice. Its will be an epic campaign that will hopefully end with the demise of one of my least favorite deities.;) very nice response LOL @ getting rid of Shar how can you be happy to look at the sun when you dont have the darkness of the night to let you compare I dont care about the Good alignement of Lathander, the act of risking the life of millions worshippers and then after reshape a whole pantheon in his image without giving what's most important for a living being enough intelligent (read here the RIGHT to choose between good or evil) is an abuse and surely Evil it's like this thing about stealing the portfolios of the Greater God of the Mulhorandi Pantheon...what king of good god would want to steal the power of another GOOD God!?!?!?!? Lathander has gone insane or has to be manipulated by his hatred towards Shar I dont think that if you killed Talona all the sickness of the world would go away :D but still, it is a wonderful epic game that youre planning good luck :)
Zsych 06-29-07, 04:45 AM	Just because things are a certain way, doesn't mean that they should be that way. Good and evil aren't inter-dependent opposites, they are different approaches to life, with one being destructive to the continuance of life in general. And Lathandar trying to wipe out evil and their gods is like the police trying to wipe out criminals and the forces that make them become criminals. So, they don't exactly have a majority consensus on what laws their should be. If you couldn't get a majority consensus on murder and rape being wrong, what would be wrong with forcing your view on other people, till they come around to your way of thinking(or realize that you're right)? :) Naturally, everyone believes that they are right, and those with power can and usually do manage to force their opinions on to others :) ... Not that Lathandar is going to succeed. I bet on Shar kicking his ass straight to the moon(:))
XHereticX 06-29-07, 08:16 AM	Yeah, its just like the Spanish Inquisition and the Witch's Hammer with the Catholic Church, so called "holy men" commiting atrocious acts in the name of God, nothing sickens me more. Remember, without the darkness, how do we know the stars shine? Shar, Bane, and Helm will destroy Lathander and his army of pea-brained fanatics, then Horus-Re will take his place. Yay, go Horus-Re, the only cool sun god.
boards 06-29-07, 10:13 AM	Difference is priest of Lathander can tell if someone is evil magically. The inquistion couldnt. There is a huge difference between a worshipper of Bane, Cyric etc and those who were deemed evil in the RW. There are nations of people dedicated to those evil gods who actively do evil things, a bit different to the nebulous "evil" the inquisition was after. Unless you think that Lathander will pull of a stunt like Cyric did in Crucible(?) I honestly cant see it being like you say. People have seen the actions of Helm in the name of "good" and the reaction of outsiders, and I and sure Lathander wont let something like that happen to his followers. Good is rather more defined in the Realms than it is in real life and as his followers are good, unlike Helms neutral, I dont see them performing witch hunts, and burning people at the stake.
XHereticX 06-29-07, 10:54 AM	Difference is priest of Lathander can tell if someone is evil magically. The inquistion couldnt. There is a huge difference between a worshipper of Bane, Cyric etc and those who were deemed evil in the RW. There are nations of people dedicated to those evil gods who actively do evil things, a bit different to the nebulous "evil" the inquisition was after. Unless you think that Lathander will pull of a stunt like Cyric did in Crucible(?) I honestly cant see it being like you say. People have seen the actions of Helm in the name of "good" and the reaction of outsiders, and I and sure Lathander wont let something like that happen to his followers. Good is rather more defined in the Realms than it is in real life and as his followers are good, unlike Helms neutral, I dont see them performing witch hunts, and burning people at the stake. True, but Lathander would still slaughter a lot of people to get his way. Remember, Lathander is deluded and naive, his view of evil is extremely broad and unprejudiced. Many good deities would most likely oppose his actions as well, especially Tyr, since his actions are tyrannical and most good deities agree that no one god should be able to dictate what is right for the pantheon. Lathander will eventually grow paranoid and think that the entire pantheon is against him and lash out with blind fury. His clergy, despite their magical aid, would reflect his madness. Lathander of course, would still think he is acting for the greater "good" of the world. Eventually good and evil may have to temporarily ally to stop a mad god and his visions of grandeur. The Dawn Cataclysm happened because of Lathander's naivite and close-mindedness, he still has not learned...
captaincarot 06-29-07, 11:00 AM	Yeah, its just like the Spanish Inquisition and the Witch's Hammer with the Catholic Church, so called "holy men" commiting atrocious acts in the name of God ahhhh proper religion just how it should be, all vim and vigour and stuff it up the unbeliever/ heretic. Because they don't do as the church says.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-29-07, 03:05 PM	Good old Lathander, the hypocritical fool. He reminds me of the crusades and the knights of Templar, maybe even Hitler, he's attempting a mass genocide. In the act of murdering all these beings wouldn't that in turn make him evil? Turning him in to the very evil he sought to destroy? Why is he considered good, if all his intentions are bent on slaughter?
Zsych 06-30-07, 03:38 AM	The difference was that the church was also horribly corrupt. Lathandar should theoretically not be corrupt, and be able to tell when his own clerics are bordering on evil emotions. And killing someone like Shar with the stated aim of annihilating all existence is hardly a bad decision, even when no one around supports you. ... Whats the harm in a million deaths, if for countless millenia afterwards and thus countless trillions of lives, life is much better? (normally, the problem in our world is that you can't get to the root of the problem, and even good and evil can be very subjective concepts. Apparently in D&D they are not, so a campaign to destroy evil is actually possible)
Eccerion 06-30-07, 08:41 AM	As the saying goes: "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Lathanders goal is the same as any good diety, to fight evil in all its forms, he just takes it a weee bit to far :D Lathander knows that if he went one on one with Shar, she would rip him a new one. Course thats a good reason fr him to want to make himself even more powerful then he allready is, and if he could siphon away the power of other dieties in addition it would be even easier as they wouldnt be as strong anymore. IMO if Lathander tried aything like the DC again it would cause some major noise in godland, after the Time of Troubles Ao told the gods to behave and not start no trouble of cataclysmic proportions or there would be hell to pay. The evil dieties hear about it they might actually start working in unison to stop him, Helm sure wouldnt want to help and the other good and nautral gods would smack their forheads and go: "Aw geez not again!, man that guy never learns" If a god is destroyed or otherwise looses their portfolio, it dosnt mean that that aspect of reality simply disappears, it just menas that there isnt any higher power holding sway over it at the time. So IF Shar were to die there wouldnt be an endless day and the underdark wouldt collapse, or if Waukeen were to kick the bucket for real all the money in the world would just go POP and vanish. Gaining portfolios is the most direct way for a diety to gain power, though it might be the most perilous, so if Lathander were to beat shar and claim her portfolio of darkness and night, he would become tremendesly powerful as he would hold sway over both day and night. Perfect example is that after the ToT Baal, Bane and Myrkul "died" and their portfolio was given to the then mortal Cyric. In less time then it took to say it a mortal man had the power of three gods, and the power Cyric possessed was such that he could probably have taken on any one of the other dieties and won through sheer power. Add to that his theft of Leiras powers and some of Masks, and Cyric would have been near to unstoppable if he hadnt read his own book and driven himself koo-koo for a while. Ao seemingly dosnt give a copper who holds what portfolio, as long as someone has it and isnt trying to throw a monkeywrench into the machine.
Slayergnome 06-30-07, 02:52 PM	Another question. If Lathander did succeed in his master plan of ..uh whatever he did in the DE..and could rework the Pantheons of the world. What do you think he would do. Who would be destroyed, what would be the remaining pantheon. I would assume all races would end up having one Pantheon left. Also what would the ramifications be?
XHereticX 06-30-07, 04:26 PM	Another question. If Lathander did succeed in his master plan of ..uh whatever he did in the DE..and could rework the Pantheons of the world. What do you think he would do. Who would be destroyed, what would be the remaining pantheon. I would assume all races would end up having one Pantheon left. Also what would the ramifications be? Hmm, Lathander would be the supreme god, the gods of other human pantheons (and possibly even nonhuman) would be dead or absorbed, evil deities would be dead, many neutral deities would also be dead, a lot of people, concepts, and niches would be dead too. Lathander would be like Mao in China, Mr. Shining Sun ruling over a council of lesser men all terrified of him yet scheming against him in secret. The world might even cease to exist then, since theoretically a world needs a balance between good, evil, and neutrality to even survive, and wiping out evil entirely may just make the cosmos crumble. And an important concept of good is that the ends DON'T justify the means. Lathander in many ways is the good equivelent of shar, a light obsessed psycopath who wants to ruin the world, then remake it in his own vision.
The Ubbergeek 06-30-07, 07:50 PM	Lathander is NOT a psychopath. He is just his portfolios and what he represent. Like any god. Naive, overenthousiast and young, but good. Really so. Such the kind of god I'd give my soul for perhaps - at least, he is one who is GOOD with a big G and don't use the 'I am a part of the natural scheme' idea and make the mortals suffer. A proactive good. You have to admit, I'd radmit (like many of you I bet) have a supreme lathander than shar. Or bane. or cyric.
XHereticX 06-30-07, 07:55 PM	Lathander is NOT a psychopath. He is just his portfolios and what he represent. Like any god. Naive, overenthousiast and young, but good. Really so. Such the kind of god I'd give my soul for perhaps - at least, he is one who is GOOD with a big G and don't use the 'I am a part of the natural scheme' idea and make the mortals suffer. A proactive good. You have to admit, I'd radmit (like many of you I bet) have a supreme lathander than shar. Or bane. or cyric. Nah, I would prefer not to dance in a white skirt with little sunshine stickers on it and sing praises to Mr. Shining Sun all day. Plus I love the night, it would really suck if the burning heat of the sun was on all day. Yes, I would rather have any of those three gods in charge except Cyric. Shar is a total hottie and Bane at least has some common sense. Too many problems in the world are caused by individuals with high morals and closed minds.
The Ubbergeek 06-30-07, 08:10 PM	Moral relativism is a dangerous idea. And a wrong one. And also, Shar and co ARE evil. Really so. I'd rather have our Mister Apollo. Instead of some messed up greedy and murderous overlord. And who will cry for orcs and the like? It is a world where Evil EXIST. REAL Evil. It's not our world. Don't bring this moral equivalence, guys.
XHereticX 06-30-07, 08:13 PM	Moral relativism is a dangerous idea. And a wrong one. And also, Shar and co ARE evil. Really so. I'd rather have our Mister Apollo. Instead of some messed up greedy and murderous overlord. And who will cry for orcs and the like? It is a world where Evil EXIST. REAL Evil. It's not our world. Don't bring this moral equivalence, guys. Evil is just a philisophical idea, it is not that simple, even in the D&D universe. As for real evil, evil people in the D&D universe do nothing more than what RL villains do, except often on a larger scale due to magic. What makes them any more evil? A blind man with high morals is just as dangerous, if not more, than a cunning man with none. If I really am wrong, then the world would be a pretty simplistic place.
The Ubbergeek 06-30-07, 08:41 PM	There is a difference, to quote the classic JRPG Lufia, between being 'evil' and being 'evil'. To just be an evil man, and BEING the idea of evil. Or a champion of it. And evil gods ARE Evilness. It's how it is. Look at it that way; Bane is the very idea of Fascism - 'obey me and destroy the inferior ones!' Cyric is the very idea of anarchical violence and random absolutism - 'because I wish it so!' Shar is the very idea of sociopathy and cold dark will. Compared to Lathander, who is just, at the end, a god of youth, and young litteraly. Give him a rest.
XHereticX 06-30-07, 08:52 PM	No, you are completly wrong here. The gods are not living embodiments of evil, they are just petty, fickle and mortal-minded creatures with terrible powers. All in all, they are just an extension of the minds of their worshippers. Cyric and Bane are both ascended mortals, their ideals and morals are nearly exactly the same as before, just now they are far wiser and more powerful. Its like a mafia man who originally had a handgun and now has an armored tank. Does that make him the living embodiment of evil, just giving him some bigger guns? Shar originally was not evil, she only turned that way after Selune's "betrayal," and possibly got corrupted to think in such a way by a Baernaloth. If you want to talk about the true embodiments of evil, lets talk fiend shall we.:devil: As I said, "real" evil and evil are not different, the only things that are different is the potential energy to excecute one's will, and a differing concept of thinking due to this.
The Ubbergeek 06-30-07, 09:49 PM	The evil gods ARE like the fiends on that aspect - a parcel of the Big Evil, but none IS the whole of evil, I guess. Still, my point hold. Bane IS Tyrany. Share IS the Entropy (and always was). Cyric IS.... Cyric. (the ultimate essence of Destructive Anarchy and all). Don't make a difference if old and new, the Gods are supreme in their aaspects. So, Lathander, worse? You jest. And don't trust the fiends, they spin their own propaganda, mon.
Arbourean 06-30-07, 10:13 PM	Ah, it's so refreshing to see people beginning to see the truth about the Lord of the Morning. :devil:
XHereticX 06-30-07, 10:19 PM	The evil gods ARE like the fiends on that aspect - a parcel of the Big Evil, but none IS the whole of evil, I guess. Still, my point hold. Bane IS Tyrany. Share IS the Entropy (and always was). Cyric IS.... Cyric. (the ultimate essence of Destructive Anarchy and all). Don't make a difference if old and new, the Gods are supreme in their aaspects. So, Lathander, worse? You jest. And don't trust the fiends, they spin their own propaganda, mon. Heh, I doubt the living embodiment of Tyranny is a petty, mortal-minded being like Bane. Deities are more like the mortal perceptions of evil rather than the evil itself. Bane is nothing more than Hitler with divine powers, he may hold the portfolios of tyranny and hatred, but he can't hold a candle up to Asmodeus when it comes to being the embodiment of it. Lathander may not necessarily be worse, but the acts he in his naivite is willing to commit in the name of "good" already has and will cause catastrophy on Toril. Gods, are nothing more than mortals with superpowers. In many ways they are even more predictable as they cannot deviate from their portfolios or they will not be upholding their place in the pantheon. That is what is so dangerous about Lathander. The evil gods you see, are undoubtably evil and destructive, you can expect nothing more from them, and therefore you are prepared in a way. Lathander embodies youth, vitality, and purification, he cannot stop being as he is, and therefore can never change. However, what the good gods refuse to acknowledge is the danger of their own. Good in the grand scheme is not the right path, just one philisophical path out of many. It can cause damage, great damage, if led down the path of pride and foolishness. If you don't believe me you can just reference numerous events in both D&D and RL, and you will see how. Lathander, as youth, cannot see the foolishness of his own schemes no matter how hard he tries, since he was made that way by Ao. Oh, he is still good, since he intends nothing but the best for Toril with his actions. But actions and intentions often have very different results, and Lathander with his Portfoilios, is unable to see thus. Now you see why he is so dangerous. He is like the little kid with a blindfold on with a scene of utopia, while in reality it is truly a burning hellsacpe around him. He, because he is the embdiment of youth and naivite, cannot take off the blindfold, and will never learn from his mistakes. And nobody would suspect such things of him, since everyone thinks he is so good...well...they are in for a suprise.;) I am not saying the evil gods are not dangerous, but often, I prefer a predictable enemy to one that strikes where you least expect it. Good is not a fullproof guarentee of purity, it is a ideal with flaws and boons, like anything else. Also, the fiends according to planar history, are eons older than the gods, who only emerged when mortals started having faith. Therefore they are just extensions of mortal ideas and emotions.
Zsych 07-01-07, 06:29 AM	Oh come on... the goodly gods need to be forgiven world effecting plots, when the evil gods also have similar plots(its not like Shar wouldn't annihilate all the other gods if she could. I'm sure she will). The difference of course, is in the kind of world you're trying to create. There's something to be said for thinking big.
Nitan 07-01-07, 06:40 PM	I full agree with XHereticX. The current Lathander is simply ridiculous. Instead, I feel Lathander should replaced with a Neo Lathander. This Lathander would be a tortured antihero, aways dark and brooding about the sins of his past. No more foolish naivety but instead some good old cynicism and pessimism. He should also have a doomed love with Shar. And be half-vampire. In a black trenchcoat. Yes. This is Neo Lathander. He's true good. Not like that crazy Lathander we have now with the nutty idea of trying to get rid of all evil. PS: On a more serious note we have no idea what the first Dawn Cataclysm actually entailed nor do we have any idea of what Lathander's new plan is. Perhaps Lathander's end result has remained unchanged though his methods have. Also, not all Gods are ascended mortals. A prime example is Lathander.
Slayergnome 07-01-07, 07:08 PM	Actually something that came to mind on this subject. Maybe Shar would help Lathander do his little DC. Even if it meant her destruction cause he could very easily destroy all the pantheon and toril along with it..which would be exactly what Shar wants.
Zsych 07-01-07, 07:27 PM	Wonder if Shar really wants destruction, beyond her aversion to light, and Selune's betrayal likely still bothering her.
Soltares 07-01-07, 09:13 PM	Shar just needs a hug from Selune, whom she misses terribly. Cyric is a nutbar, about as 'evil' as gingivitus (but not nearly as dangerous, he's the keystone cop, who has never met a plan he couldn't screw up *spectacularly*). Bane, well, he tries, but he keeps getting all of his followers, and occassionally himself, killed. Sad, really, that this is the state of evil. Lathandar has promise 'though. He could kill off all of the evil gods, and, as always happens, they will get replaced almost immediately, and perhaps their replacements will be *remotely* competent at their jobs. Lathandar, by this point, having achieved many acts of deicide, only to be reminded that *nothing has changed for the better,* will be madder than Cyric, more tyrannical than Bane, and more nihilistic than Shar, and will make a perfect 'Dark Sun' to rule this new pantheon of evil. Selune, moon goddess, perhaps having absorbed the dying fragments of her beloved sister and become the gentle and terrible goddess of the Night as well, will be forced to lead the remaining gods of good against the reign of the Sanguine Dawn. It will be glorious. A new Time of Troubles, 'cause gosh, the first one was so much fun!
XHereticX 07-02-07, 08:03 AM	well, lets see, Lathander has already been a god of noon (Amaunthor) theoretically. He is currently the god of morning. All that is left, is the god of dusk...(which might be cyric but I highly doubt it). Lathander's end is drawing near.
customdrapery 07-02-07, 10:37 AM	I'm not sure that Lathander's plot is simply to rid Toril of all evil. He doesn't like the evil gods sure, but what good god does? I think he's going to try and claim the aspect of highsun rather than let some new god with that portfolio rise up and himself fade (as the others with the dawn, noon, and dusk portfolios have). No one currently holds the portfolio of dusk and noon is also unclaimed. I think Lathander's plan is to claim highsun and use that to become the head (or possibly simply the commander) of the good side of the Faerunian pantheon. After that, then he'll (and the other good gods) will go after the evil gods. This will be much like when the Mulhorandi pantheon got together and threw out Set. It's this claiming of the portfolio of highsun that's problematic because that will put him in conflict with Horus-Re over in Mulhorand. And if this new Dawn Enterprise takes the same road as the previous Dawn Cataclysm, it will involve the merging of the Faerunian and the Mulhorandi Pantheons. The Dawn Cataclysm was the merging of the Faerunian pantheon with other earlier pantheons (Netherese, Talfiric, Coramshite, Jhaamdathan, Rus, etc). This new plan will ultimately be another pantheon merger, with some direct ramifications on Toril. The first Dawn Cataclysm had some strange outcomes on Toril: the fall of Myth Drannon, the founding of the Harpers, The end of the second Untheric Empire, the arrival of Xvim, and the imprisonment of Moander. We can expect other seemingly unrelated things to occur with Lathander's new plot.
Zsych 07-02-07, 04:05 PM	Lathandar was never Amanataur(sp?) among the Netherese. Amanataur is dead. I remember a sourcebook saying that some people thought Lathandar was Amanataur, but that is a mistake and Aman is sitting on the astral plane waiting for someone to resurrect him. @custom: I'm not sure the Netherese or Jhaamdathi ever had a particularly different pantheon. They just had fewer gods(and Jhaamdath had Auppensor for Psionics).
customdrapery 07-02-07, 05:38 PM	According to F&P pg. 5 there were several human pantheons: Netherese (Anauroch), Talfiric (Western Heartlands), Jhaamdathan (Vilhon Reach and Dragon Coast), Coramshite (Calimshan area). I believe that they did have distinctly different gods in each pantheon and that what we see currently is a mixture of all of them, some seem to be more prominent than others (I'm thinking Netherese and Talfiric here). But, I would probably say that there were a few folks on the Dragon Coast who worshiped Netherese gods, or vice versa. All that cross-pantheon worship is what brought on the merging of all of these anyway. What puzzles me is that all of these early pantheons seems so much smaller and the current Faerunian Pantheon is huge, with most of the early gods still existing, but in different and often weaker forms. Maybe there needs to be some trimming. Personally I don't think we need both Tempus and Garagos, for instance.
Zsych 07-02-07, 06:43 PM	The people of Toril have apparently become much more god dependent and created new gods for every stupid thing, as opposed to just sticking with the creator gods, and their progeny :)
PharaunMizzrym 07-02-07, 07:39 PM	The people of Toril do not create the Gods. Gods can create gods and a few powerful mortals can ascend to godhood (all pending AO's approval), but the vast majority of people have nearly no say in the creation of gods.
Zsych 07-02-07, 08:27 PM	When there is enough faith in an idea, in an image, in a god. That god will come to be. When a sufficient number of worshippers of a god, change their view of it, there's a fair chance that the god will end up broken into pieces that support the views of the different worshippers. And when a god's worshippers disappear, so does the god himself. For many gods, it is the unconscious power of mortals, in the form of faith that causes them to be, or to at least become stronger. Heck, lower level clerical spells(level 1 and 2) don't even need a god. Just faith that you believe in a divine entity(whether or not it exists)...such low end proofs of the source of a faith may well be the starting points of some religions.
Slayergnome 07-02-07, 08:30 PM	I like that idea. He isn't out to rid the world of Evil via his new DC plot. Just to take the reins of power in the Pantheon (after merging the two) then take the fight to the evil gods. But what about the racial pantheons. Do you think he'd have any sway in merging them into a main pantheon or would they somehow be off limits?
Zsych 07-02-07, 08:35 PM	Personally, if I were him, each death of an evil god would make me happier, and give me opportunity to expand my power. And with time, I'd have enough power to effect the racial pantheons as well. Heck, a spectacularly powerful god may win worshippers just by that fact.. as being the most powerful representative of all that is good, and as a destroyer of the sources of evil... possibly from other races as well, who believe in goodness(or respect power)
KarsusAspectOfZsych 07-02-07, 10:46 PM	As Lord Zsych says, Power is really the only thing that matters, and those with power choose what the shape of the world will be
customdrapery 07-03-07, 10:14 AM	That's a good question about the effect on the demi-human pantheons. I don't know, frankly. But if FR goes the way of Middle Earth and all the demi-humans become human-like over long periods of time, then eventually all of the demi-human pantheons will cease to exist or be folded into the Faerunian pantheon. I could also see some alliances between pantheons Elves, Dwarves, Faerunian (good) against Faerunian (evil), Orcs, Drow. An all-out godswar? Could be interesting.
BrennonGoldeye 07-03-07, 11:45 AM	Oh fun, a new aspect. :clap:
Boda 07-03-07, 12:49 PM	Lathander has been sailling the Cyric boat for a while now. Both are nutjobs.
Renvale999 07-03-07, 01:37 PM	Wasn't Lathandar cursed with bad luck when he messed with Tyche (Now Tymora and Beshaba)?? Isn't that why he's all stupid now?
The Ubbergeek 07-03-07, 02:13 PM	lathander is not stupid, for about similar reason as the 'paladin probllem'. He is oftem quick and enthousiast, but that is not stupidity. Kind of like a character I had - a mage with high Int, but the Wis was subpar.
customdrapery 07-03-07, 03:24 PM	I agree, Lathander isn't stupid, he's just living up to the youth and optimism part of his portfolio. I do like the idea he may still be suffering from the bad luck that he was touched with by Tyche. How long does that last? Was it just in regards to the Dawn Cataclysm?
Psionycx 07-03-07, 04:09 PM	Personally I liked the explanation that was given in the novel Prince of Lies. The gods are monomaniacs. That is why their points of view seem so skewed. It is only with great effort that they can perceive the world through any lense except for their own portfolio. Ao didn't create the gods to think "big picture". He created them to fulfill specific functions, and he allowed more gods to move in as new functions needed to be fulfilled. But this means that the gods all have very narrow points of view. Bane can only see the world as something to be conquered and ruled. Cyric revels in strife. Shar wants to drag it all down into primal nothingness. Tyr wants to impose law and order on it. Talos wants to blow it all up as spectacularly as possible. And Lathander wants to forge a new beginning for it. Each god acts in accordance with their natures and Ao assumes that the other gods will balance things out. Toril isn't a monotheistic world. The individual gods there are not meant to be universal deities like the Judeo-Christian God in the real world. They're meant to be more like the gods of ancient pantheistic religions, each of whom had a tendency to look after their own interests primarily and everything else secondarily if at all. This is why no one god manages to fulfill the needs of all the peoples of the Realms. So why should a Good god like Lathander be passive in the face of escalating Evil? Is it assumed that only Evil gods can hatch plots to advance the interests of their portfolios while Good and Neutral gods are supposed to just sit on their hands and watch? Since Lathander is god of Renewal, he doubtless sees the festering Evil that is spreading across Faerun as something that needs to be purged and a fresh start brought about. That is his function after all. Now the question is will he get away with it?
customdrapery 07-03-07, 04:18 PM	That is a great explanation. I suppose he'll get away with it unless he is balanced out by one of the other gods. Maybe Shar will get in his way again or this time maybe Cyric or a bunch of the neutral or good gods. Either way, as I see it, he'll keep trying even though it may not succeed, you can't expect anything less from the god of renewal, creativity, and beginnings.
XHereticX 07-03-07, 07:34 PM	Nope, Lathander is not stupid, he is just himself, and due to his portfolios he can't be anything but himself or he will lose his divinity. Zysch, your idea of a united churchlike faith based off of Lathander on Toril...disturbs me... That is the absolute last thing we need on a High-Magic world. Personally, I say Lathander just die already so we can get the evil god of dusk.
Zsych 07-03-07, 09:02 PM	I'm saying that he should be allowed to try, and that its a decent enough vision for someone to have. (obviously he's not going to succeed)
Lord Zeb 07-04-07, 12:33 AM	I like the idea of Lathander pulling off a successful DC. Nothing as drastic as creating a new world, but definitely absorbing Highsun from Horus-Re and pulling in some divine ranks. "New Lathander" would then have more oomph in his fight against darkness and evil, not to mention fully bringing some Heretics of the Faith into the fold. I've always liked Lathander, but I've met tons of people who don't like him... I just never got a straight answer as to why.
PharaunMizzrym 07-04-07, 12:42 AM	So right after the recent Year of Rogue Dragons Lathander is going to launch his Dawn Cataclysm version 2.0? Not likely. Faerun should still be reeling from that near apocalyptic episode, falling into the Dragon War, and dealing with some new evil friends: Alagshon brought back, Tchazzar ruling Chessenta, a host of dracolich tyrants, etc. A war of pantheons or upheaval of the cosmos could be enough to destroy all civilization on Toril. Were I Lathander I would concentrate on the defeat of the fledgling church of Velsharoon and that deity's destruction. Greater Deity versus Demipower, an easy yet crucial win, especially with the possible help of Kelemvor.
Psionycx 07-04-07, 03:02 AM	Greater deities don't hatch minor plots. They like to think BIG. The last time he decided to be "helpful" he tried to ressurect his old girlfriend by merging Beshaba and Tymora back together with little thought to what impact that would have across Faerun. Besides, from Lathander's perspective (remember just how much remote sensing a greater god can do) the Realms are in crisis. Recent events would have catalyzed his resolve that something urgent needs to happen here. Consider: 1) Cyric has his sanity (such as it is) back 2) Bane has returned to life, so instead of a lesser god of tyranny there's now a greater god of tyranny 3) The existence of Shar's Shadow Weave has been revealed Meanwhile, down below the godly planes: 1) Thay's merchantile endeavors have been getting them inroads into half the nations on Faerun 2) The Zhentarim are rising again from the mess Cyric left them in and are gobbling up territory all around the Moonsea 3) An actual Netherese floating city has returned to Faerun, and it turns out these Netherese worship Shar and use the Shadow Weave 4) King Azoun has died and the future of Cormyr is precariously perched on a regent and a child heir 5) Westgate is infested by vampires led by a clone of Manshoon 6) Orcs are running amok in the North 7) The drow are becoming increasingly active above and below ground 8) The Chosen of Mystra have been having a rough ride and cannot be prevailed upon to be the Realms all-purpose do-gooders in every scenario I'm sure I've missed a few things here. But I think you get the point. Evil god activity is off the scale and mortal evil is reaching new heights. The pot is boiling. It's hardly surprising that Lathander feels that someone's got to take decisive action and it might as well be him. Besides, Velsharoon at least nominally works for Mystra right at the moment (which has to be a bone of contention with Kelemvor). But picking him off could lead to strained relations with Mystra just now and it's not a good time for that. Not saying that provoking another Dawn Cataclysm is necessarily a good idea. But Lathander may be reading from the George W Bush guide to battling Evil.
PharaunMizzrym 07-04-07, 06:22 AM	You're absolutely right. I also agree that George W. Bush and Lathander have a lot in common. Both stay the course and want to be deciders. The point I was trying to make is that the realms cant take much more for a time. Every time a cataclysmic event occurs in faerun the debris of the fallout continues to plague faerun for millenia upon millenia. There are still evils left over from the elven crown wars. The sarrukh empire. The old wizard nations. Time of Troubles. Year of Rogue Dragons. etc. I mean, just during the appearance of shade the seasons went bonkers to the point where many crops died. then a year later dragons tear through civilization. Can toril have a war of the gods and still exist in a state of being capable of supporting life. Perhaps Toril does need Lathander to play uber power, at least for a little while. But what if the morninglord is the last bright nail in the dark coffin that Faerun is becoming. One might honestly feel safer living in Ravenloft. Even Takhisis of Dragonlance at her highest point couldn't bring the world this close to oblivion (Chaos could and did, but they had Tasslehoff so there was nothing to worry about. FR needs a Tasslehoff. Say, where is Drizzits little halfling friend right now?) I apologize for any spelling errors, its late.
Slayergnome 07-04-07, 06:49 AM	I really like the idea of having Lathander go for a high sun sorta position in a attempt to strong arm his way as head of the Good side of the Faerun Pantheon. Likely mering the worship of his own with that of Horus-Ra in some sorta god battle...in which he would almost likely pose as Horus-Ra to keep the worshippers easier. It would without a doubt raise his power level. He could also take out some of the lowly deities out there that are against his direct nature...to nibble at the power tree some more. It would likely cause great chaos as other gods (bad and good) start assualting his church in attempts to stop or slow him down. But the common people will continue in their worship. Its hard not to worship the Dawn or babies being born when your a baby making peasant.
XHereticX 07-04-07, 08:37 AM	GWB and Lathander, yup makes sense to me. Lathander's "decisive action" is going to ruin Toril. He thinks that he is the only being powerful and wise enough to control the pantheon and prevent evil from spreading, fool... Yeah, we do need Tas:D
Zsych 07-04-07, 08:41 AM	So which good god would you prefer, with large schemes? Oghma is useless. Mystra is worried about the Shadow-weave. Ilmater is crying as usual etc.
XHereticX 07-04-07, 09:29 AM	So which good god would you prefer, with large schemes? Oghma is useless. Mystra is worried about the Shadow-weave. Ilmater is crying as usual etc. None of them...preferably. However, that isn't really possible, so I have to say, any good god with more common sense than Lathander, which is almost all of them:P
boards 07-04-07, 09:30 AM	GWB and Lathander, yup makes sense to me. Lathander's "decisive action" is going to ruin Toril. He thinks that he is the only being powerful and wise enough to control the pantheon and prevent evil from spreading, fool... Yeah, we do need Tas:D Nobody needs a Tas, irritating little descendent of rodents that he is. :rant:
Karsus the Mad 07-04-07, 09:47 AM	So which good god would you prefer, with large schemes? Oghma is useless. Mystra is worried about the Shadow-weave. Ilmater is crying as usual etc. Hey, Oghma is a really good choice, being god of knowledge, inspiration, invention and all those jazzy people.
MerrikCale 07-04-07, 10:57 AM	So which good god would you prefer, with large schemes? Oghma is useless. Mystra is worried about the Shadow-weave. Ilmater is crying as usual etc. Selune
XHereticX 07-04-07, 11:28 AM	Selune Agreed, she has enoguh common sense to fight evil without being blind. Being the most ancient and wisest good god, she is a perfect choice. I can also see Chauntea trying to wipe out the deities of fury. By the way, Oghma isn't good, he is TN.
Psionycx 07-04-07, 11:34 AM	Selune One would think, but she's not quite powerful enough yet. And she's also preoccupied with Shar just now. It's sort of a Shar/Cyric versus Mystra/Selune sort of situation. It's one of those judgement call situations. There's no question that Lathander's actions could cause mayhem across Toril. It's highly unlikely however that it could destroy it however. The world survived the Time of Troubles after all. As Lathander sees it (and apparently so do his allies Chauntea, Liira and Oghma) doing nothing would be even worse. With all that's going on and the rising power of the Evil gods, he may fear that the future will be even more horrific if he does nothing. After all, Shar's end goal is to drag the world down into oblivion. Bane and Cyric may not want things to go quite that far, but they might support her in the short term figuring they can reign her in later. If the mortal forces serving the goals of the Evil gods can conquer enough of Faerun they could stamp out the worship of the Good gods and weaken them until there would be nothing they could do to stop Evil from ruling the world. The thought of whole nations enslaved to Bane's tyranny or Cyric's bloodlust has to be an ugly image. According to the GWB guide to battlling Evil, that's when you need to proactively go to war. Decider-in-Chief Lathander is merely the most willing to take the initiative and not wait for a bunch of soft-on-Evil types to peddle their weak-kneed plans for a more passive response. Here's another wrinkle as well: what if Lathander really is Amaunator? That can't be a pleasant memory. Amaunator saw Netheril's fall coming but didn't do anything about it because he felt it was outside of his jurisdiction (magical catastrophes being Mystryl's responsibility). People hated Amaunator after the fact for not preventing the Fall. The argument that it wasn't within his lawful duties didn't fly. If Lathander really is Amaunator, or subsumed him after his decline, the memory of the consequences of allowing Netheril to fall may have been haunting him all these centuries. And it may convince him that waiting for bad things to happen and dealing with them after the fact is a bad idea.
Karsus the Mad 07-04-07, 11:36 AM	By the way, Oghma isn't good, he is TN. I know, but I prefer him. He at least would weigh both sides, and make a logical choice based on reasoning, rather than making a logical choice biased by personal desire. And, he wouldn't ever bother trying to do what Lathander is, which puts him even that much higher:P
XHereticX 07-04-07, 11:56 AM	I know, but I prefer him. He at least would weigh both sides, and make a logical choice based on reasoning, rather than making a logical choice biased by personal desire. And, he wouldn't ever bother trying to do what Lathander is, which puts him even that much higher:P That, I agree wholeheartedly with. I'm just saying that we are talking about good deities here. Good deities care too much about their vision of utopia, while evil deities don't take anything into consiteration besides their own power. In the end, Neutral deities, especially TN deities, use the most fair and balanced judgements of ideals weighted against consequences and make wiser decisions when taking decisive action. By the way, Cyric is an incompetent idiot who really dosen't threaten the world much on a grand scale, while Bane is too busy trying to recover his old power. Shar might be the greatest threat right now, but Mystra and Selune already keep her in check. Besides that, the world seems pretty much in balance to me. Lathander is just being a fool and overreacting.
Psionycx 07-04-07, 12:02 PM	I know, but I prefer him. He at least would weigh both sides, and make a logical choice based on reasoning, rather than making a logical choice biased by personal desire. And, he wouldn't ever bother trying to do what Lathander is, which puts him even that much higher:P Oghma has made his logical choice based on reasoning: he's decided not to try and stop Lathander. Whether or not he actively assists, his quiet complicity makes him partly responsible for whatever happens next.
Lord Zeb 07-04-07, 12:33 PM	Here's another wrinkle as well: what if Lathander really is Amaunator? That can't be a pleasant memory. Amaunator saw Netheril's fall coming but didn't do anything about it because he felt it was outside of his jurisdiction (magical catastrophes being Mystryl's responsibility). People hated Amaunator after the fact for not preventing the Fall. The argument that it wasn't within his lawful duties didn't fly. If Lathander really is Amaunator, or subsumed him after his decline, the memory of the consequences of allowing Netheril to fall may have been haunting him all these centuries. And it may convince him that waiting for bad things to happen and dealing with them after the fact is a bad idea. I like this idea. I've been thinking about running a modern FR campaign, and this would be a killer backdrop, especially if the PCs are clearly on one side or the other. In order to reclaim Highsun, he has to take out Horus-Re (roughly equal in power to Lathander today), incorporating two facets of the Tri-Sun. He remains NG, but leans towards Law. In game, Mulhorandi and Lathanderites clash frequently. The heretic Sunmasters gain more prominence in the church, though the idea of Lathander turning into Amaunator fades a bit as Lathander makes it clear he is not changing into anyone else... just broadening his base. Sunlord Daelegoth Orndeir does everything as in Powers of Faerun, but at the end acknowledges the supremacy of Lathander, not the rebirth of Amaunator. In F&P terms, Lathander jumps from a DR 17 to DR 19 (assuming Horus-Re is a DR 17 as well, doubling the 17 = 19). Shar as a DR 18 no longer has the upper hand in battling the new & improved Lathander. This is the perfect time for Talos and Mask to pull off a strike while Lathander has Shar on the run, leaving one part of this Dawn Cataclysm 2.0 to fall out as... 1) Lathander the Dawn and Sun, Greater Power, NG (Lawful tendencies) Domains: Good, Nobility, Protection, Renewal, Strength, Sun, Law, Retribution, Planning, Time Elite followers: Eyes of Horus-Re, Sunmasters, Morninglords of Lathander 2) Shar, Lesser Power of Loss, Caverns, Dungeons, Forgetfulness and the Underdark Domains: Cavern, Evil - down but not out, she will rise again, as being one of the primordial powers. Reduced to a Lesser Power of underground places and Loss, she retreats for a long time in order to reclaim her former position. 3) Mask, Intermediate Power of the Night, the Dark, Shadows, Secrets, Intrigue and Thieves Domains: Darkness, Evil, Luck, Trickery, Knowledge - as a coup he reclaims Intrigue by having his plot succeed (unlike 99% of Cyrics plotting), Secrets, Dark and Night are siphoned from the weakened Shar. 4) Talos, Greater Power of Storms, Destruction, Rebellion, Conflagration, Earthquakes, Vortices, and the Shadow Weave Domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Fire, Storm - his earlier attempts as Malyk to control wild and destructive magic failed, so he in conjunction with Mask is able to wrest control of the Shadow Weave, making it more destructive in the process. Obviously, this is not likely how things will play out (though Lathander v Horus-Re might be on the money...), but a Talos/Mask alliance in game would be fun to GM... sneaky rogues groaning over their beserk allies. Then as Talos falters, Mask can make a play for the Shadow Weave in the future, it's a win-win for him. Meanwhile Lathander feels good about reducing Shar's power, not realizing he increased the threat by splintering her power... Hmm, invasion of Mulhorand as a campaign... :plotting:
Lord Zeb 07-04-07, 12:38 PM	QR A different thought just hit me, with Faerun v Mulhorand, instead of Mask/Talos, Set might be a better deity to absorb some of Shar's lost powers. He is already a deity of darkness, evil and magic.
PharaunMizzrym 07-04-07, 03:35 PM	I doubt Shar would be the deity to get weakened, more likely it would be Set, as Bane/Cyric/Talos are already looking at him as a power snack. Shar also has a little thing called the city of shade, sorcerer-monk assasins, and a church spread out accross the greater part of faerun that is hard to find, much less combat. Then she has drow followers in the underdark. Not to mention a Chosen who could kill any fool who crossed Shar in broad daylight without anyone noticing, and a quasi-deity shunted into a corner of the plane of shadow until the time he is needed for her plans. Then there are whatever alliances she may have with fiends, a host of shadow creatures (and most likely able to recruit those shapeshifting things who have a demiplane connected to the plane of shadow), and anyone else who I haven't listed. I think Shar's power isn't going anywhere.
Lord Zeb 07-04-07, 05:02 PM	Probably all true. IMC, I would do the weakened Shar & ascendant Set, but that's just me. If Faerun v Mulhorand Godswar does come to pass, how do y'all see the outcome? Set <-> Shar (depending on your preference, in canon probably Shar) Kelemvor -> Osiris Malar -> Sebek Lathander -> Horus-Re Chauntea -> Isis (maybe offer lower post) Selune -> Hathor (maybe offer lower post) Mystra -> Toth (maybe offer lower post) Shar -> Geb Tempus -> Anhur Waukeen -> Nephthys Poor Mulhorandi pantheon, I don't see any really surviving the Godswar, except maybe Set, or as regional aspects or servants of Faerunian gods. To mix it up, Sebek eating Malar, and Anhur toppling Tempus could be fun (like Set subverting, minimizing Shar), but I don't really see it happening as is... Thoughts?
XHereticX 07-04-07, 05:44 PM	Nah, no way a weakling like Lathander can beat Horus-Re, besides, I don't see it coming to such confrontations as many of the Mulhorandi deities have godo relations with their Mulhorandi counterparts. The only gods of the Faerunian pantheon I can see taking this pantheon integration action are Lathander, the gods of evil, and possibly Tempus. Set is dead if he faces any of the Faerunian pantheon's big baddies. Aside from that, he dosen't have any allies in his own pantheon (besides Sebek, who is too weak and insignificant) and there is only Tiamat, who might just take that chance to grab some power for herself anyway. The rest of the Mulhorandi though, would not go down without a fight if it ever came to such odds, as they are far more organized and tight than the much larger Faerunian pantheon. As well as the fact that they control what is possibly the most powerful nation currently on Faerun. The demihuman deities will see this move with alarm and possibly resort to drastic measures. Anyway, Lathander's mad schemes may not have been spoken out against yet, but when he actually initiates them you can bet there will be opposition among good, evil, and neutral deities.
boards 07-04-07, 06:19 PM	I would hate to see the two pantheons merge. The love the idea that some humans in Faerun worship a completely different set of gods, and merging them together does nothing except take away some of the variety in cultures. Unless the gods decide to pretend to be the old gods, and I really can't see Lathander pretending to be Horus Re and allowing slavery, it is simply going to destroy the culture of the Old Empires. Even if Lathander manages to pull off a DC he still has to get enough worshippers in Mulhorand to kill off Horus Re. Given how hidebound and resistant to change I dont see mass conversions to Lathander, and you cant completely kill a god while it still has a decent number of worshippers. In order for Lathander to succeed he would either have to impersonate HR to get his worship base, which seems illogical for WOTC to kill off a major god and then have another impersonate it. Its diffferent for to impersonate Ibrandle as he was a relatively minor god. Or he would have to butcher his way across the old empires and kill off all of the worshippers of his rival. Lathander may be popular but I dont think that he has the followers to invade a resurgent Mulhorand.
Psionycx 07-04-07, 06:21 PM	Well, relations were good when the Mulhorandi were stuffed neatly into their little corner of Faerun. But now, just as the Faerunian gods had been making inroads into Unther, Mulhorand has turned around and annexed it. If Thay gets caught up in internal strife, then there won't be much to keep Mulhorand from pushing further west and absorbing the cities of Chessenta too. All of that aside, I'm not sure if a play against the Mulhorandi would be on Lathander's agenda. It would only muddy the water further. The question is what form would Lathander's grand scheme take? He already appears to have at least tacit buy-in from Chauntea, Liira and Oghma. Sune would probably go along with it just because Lathander's cute and he could sway her with flattery. Tyr won't like it, but unless Ao raises an objection (he won't) then he won't fight to defend the Evil gods. The key piece is can he win cooperation from Mystra and Selune?
Arbourean 07-04-07, 07:50 PM	I can also see Chauntea trying to wipe out the deities of fury. I know it's bit off topic, but this got me thinking. It says in F&P that she's destroyed numerous deities in her history. Anyone know any more of this? Oh, and I find it rather amusing that the Pantheon is willing to turn a blind eye to Lathander's plots to reshape the cosmos, which could very well destroy the Balance; and yet Mystra is faced with possible annihilation by the Circle for "disturbing the balance."
Slayergnome 07-04-07, 08:09 PM	I see it as follows within the pantheons in regards to their reaction to Lathanders DC if he does it. I'm not saying these Gods will work together in any sorta fashion. But just stating who would be for and against in my opinion though some of them are on the edge. Also I think though they aren't on the list most of the demihuman pantheons and the Mulhorandi would watch the events unfold prepared. But unless directly at risk or made to care via deals or the sort they'd remain out of the way. Neutral in the situation until directly acted against (sometimes not even then) * Akadi: Goddess of elemental air, movement, speed, flying creatures * Grumbar: God of elemental earth, solidity, changelessness, oaths * Istishia: God of elemental water, purification, wetness * Kossuth: God of elemental fire, purification through fire * Ubtao: God of creation, jungles, Chult, the Chultans, dinosaurs * Auril: Goddess of cold, winter * Gond (also called Zionel[6]): God of artifice, craft, construction, smithwork * Beshaba: Goddess of random mischief, misfortune, bad luck, accidents * Tymora: Goddess of good fortune, skill, victory, adventurers * Umberlee: Goddess of oceans, currents, waves, sea winds * Deneir: God of glyphs, images, literature, scribes, cartography Pro-Dawn Crusade. Well support Lathander in his cause. * Chauntea (also called Bhalla[4] and Jannath[5]): Goddess of agriculture, * Lathander: God of spring, dawn, birth, youth, vitality, athletics * Oghma (also called Curna[6]): God of knowledge, invention, inspiration * Sune: Goddess of beauty, love, passion * Tempus: God of war, battle, warriors * Milil: God of poetry, song, eloquence * Lliira: Goddess of joy, happiness, dance, festivals, freedom, liberty * Eldath: Goddess of quiet places, springs, pools, peace, waterfalls * Waukeen: Goddess of trade, money, wealth * Shaundakul: God of travel, exploration, caravans, portals Anti-Dawn Crusade. Well seek to undermine and destroy the Crusade * Bane: God of strife, hatred, tyranny, fear * Shar: Goddess of dark, night, loss, forgetfulness, unrevealed secrets, * Talos (also called Bhaelros and Kozah[5]): God of storms, destruction, * Tyr: God of justice * Silvanus: God of wild nature, druids * Kelemvor (possibly also called N'asr[5]): God of death, the dead * Mystra (also called Hidden One[4]): Goddess of magic, spells, the Weave * Loviatar: Goddess of pain, hurt, agony, torment, suffering, torture * Mystra (also called Hidden One[4]): Goddess of magic, spells, the Weave * Azuth: God of wizards, mages, spellcasters in general * Helm: God of guardians, protectors, protection * Mielikki: Goddess of forests, forest creatures, rangers, dryads, autumn * Selūne : Goddess of the moon * Torm: God of duty, loyalty, obedience, paladins * Lolth: Goddess of Drow, Spiders, Darkness, and Assassination * Malar: God of hunters, stalking, bloodlust, evil lycanthropes * Mask: God of thieves, thievery, shadows * Talona: Goddess of disease, poison * Tiamat: Goddess of evil dragons, evil reptiles, greed, Chessenta Who knows really. Only Ao can tell what these will do. * Cyric (possibly also called N'asr[5]): God of murder, lies, intrigue, deception. * Ilmater: God of endurance, suffering, martyrdom, perseverance
Karsus the Mad 07-04-07, 09:28 PM	Oghma has made his logical choice based on reasoning: he's decided not to try and stop Lathander. Whether or not he actively assists, his quiet complicity makes him partly responsible for whatever happens next. If that's what you feel, then anything I say is meaningless. Lets just say Oghma reasons through everything. If he agrees with it, then it's because it's logical, regardless of what we, as mortals, percieve.......
Psionycx 07-04-07, 09:48 PM	If that's what you feel, then anything I say is meaningless. Lets just say Oghma reasons through everything. If he agrees with it, then it's because it's logical, regardless of what we, as mortals, percieve....... I was merely raising a point in response to wishful statements that were made that Oghma would be a better choice to take the on the big action. Oghma himself, however, has opted not to take such action, nor to impede Lathander from doing so even though he knows what Lathander is up to. The Binder has a history of quietly backing up other deities in a course of action he would like taken but doesn't want to openly take himself. He did it with Mystra previously. He's a bard's god and the classic rule of bardcraft is that your action should be to try and inspire your audience to action. Whatever Lathander is planning, it appears that Oghma doesn't disapprove, even though he doesn't intend to take such action himself. Maybe he agrees that the Balance is in too much danger from Evil. In any case, as the saying goes, choosing to not take action is an action in and of itself.
Karsus the Mad 07-04-07, 10:55 PM	In any case, as the saying goes, choosing to not take action is an action in and of itself. That it is, that it is;)
MerrikCale 07-04-07, 10:59 PM	One would think, but she's not quite powerful enough yet. And she's also preoccupied with Shar just now. It's sort of a Shar/Cyric versus Mystra/Selune sort of situation. Perhaps, but she is gaining ground
XHereticX 07-05-07, 08:28 PM	I like that chart you got there, cept there are a few problems. I would put Tempus and Oghma in neutral. I would put Tymora in pro. I would put Besheba and Ilmater (the Triad has to stick together) in anti. Cyric will be quite unpredictable. But I find it hard to believe for one that Selune will support Shar of all people against Lathander, one of her greatest friends. Chauntea also.
Slayergnome 07-05-07, 10:49 PM	I like that chart you got there, cept there are a few problems. I would put Tempus and Oghma in neutral. I would put Tymora in pro. I would put Besheba and Ilmater (the Triad has to stick together) in anti. Cyric will be quite unpredictable. But I find it hard to believe for one that Selune will support Shar of all people against Lathander, one of her greatest friends. Chauntea also. You make a good point about Besheba and Ilmater. Those who are anti it aren't exactly going to work together. Just cause they both might be against it. Doesn't mean they would work together or not try to undermine one another. It is more of a individual perspective. Bane isn't going to work with Selune anymore then Selune would work with Shar. But they all could believe its not a work-able thing this DC.
captaincarot 07-06-07, 02:20 AM	i know this is a bit off topic but, considering who selune and shar are, why is selune so weak. surely she should be much more powerful than she is. the same with shar surely those 2 should be the greatest of greater deities.
Aldareth 07-06-07, 03:19 AM	because selune is like the moon, waxing and waning in power
Wizardman 07-06-07, 07:01 AM	i know this is a bit off topic but, considering who selune and shar are, why is selune so weak. surely she should be much more powerful than she is. the same with shar surely those 2 should be the greatest of greater deities. Canon? Much of what is now the Weave used to be a part of Selūne. She ripped it out of herself and flung it at Shar. The blast absorbed some of Shar's power and gave birth to the Weave as we know it (and Mystryl as well), but the damage dealt was not equal to the self-inflicted damage. This is why Shar has held on as a greater deity whereas Selūne has waxed and waned over the eons. She was a greater deity in the time of Netheril, and was a lesser deity around the Time of Troubles. Personally, I believe that Ao's "part of your power stems from your worshippers" decree is a large part of the reason why her power has risen since then (at least five DR's in less than 20 years is huge). Back to the topic of Lathander and his allies, I have thoughts of my own as to why none of them have said anything. Chauntea: She is Lathander's past (and current) lover, so they are close. Also, she would hardly be opposed to the future he hopes to build. The Gods of Fury damage her children directly, and she is limited in what she can do to them. Shar wants to kill her children, then her, then everything else, and then finally herself. Preventing that is a good thing. Lliira: She is slowly becoming more martial in outlook, as seen by her Scarlet Mummers and the way that they target Loviatarans. Lathander may well be using this to sway her in the same manner that Tyr is attempting to sway the Red Knight via Torm. Oghma: As others have said, he is probably not so much supporting Lathander so much as simply keeping silent. Oghma is an explicitly conservative power. He is very attached to his idea of what the Balance should be. Granted, Lathander intends to shake it up in a big way, but Oghma is too averse to rocking the boat to actually try and stop him. To be fair, an attempt to stop Lathander could result in the Balance tilting too far in the other direction, and Oghma doesn't want that either. My bet is that he's holding his tongue and hoping with every fraction of his being that Lathander's plan self-destructs before it can get going. Until then, he'll be paralyzed until he absolutely has to act.
captaincarot 07-06-07, 11:42 AM	Canon? Much of what is now the Weave used to be a part of Selūne. She ripped it out of herself and flung it at Shar. The blast absorbed some of Shar's power and gave birth to the Weave as we know it (and Mystryl as well), but the damage dealt was not equal to the self-inflicted damage. This is why Shar has held on as a greater deity whereas Selūne has waxed and waned over the eons. She was a greater deity in the time of Netheril, and was a lesser deity around the Time of Troubles. Personally, I believe that Ao's "part of your power stems from your worshippers" decree is a large part of the reason why her power has risen since then (at least five DR's in less than 20 years is huge). i knew this already, (not being sarcastic here), it's just that some thing doesn't seem right to me when some one so powerfull can create mystryl / the weave, out of herself and be the joint oldest god bar for Ao and still not be a greater god. it's the waxing and waining bit that get's me, part of shar was ripped away also and created the weave, plus she has created the shadow weave, but little miss annihilate everything has always been a greater goddess. It aint fair on selune give her her powers back.
admdavid 07-06-07, 01:47 PM	Just curious, what is your reasoning for placing Torm in with Bane/Cyric in the Anti- crowd? Torm's greatest desire is to see good prevail and see the destruction of Bane, in particular, and evil, in general. I would think he would be on Lathander's side. He is the god of duty so he would probably follow Tyr's lead, but in his fight with Bane he might be able to convince his master that it's necessary for justice to survive. I'd really be interested in your thoughts on this.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 07-06-07, 03:47 PM	With all this child like rivalry: God’s killing God’s, mortals ascending to God hood left and right. I’m waiting for Ao to say hey stop this constant state of chaos or I’ll turn all of Toril into a dead magic zone.
Psionycx 07-07-07, 01:02 AM	i knew this already, (not being sarcastic here), it's just that some thing doesn't seem right to me when some one so powerfull can create mystryl / the weave, out of herself and be the joint oldest god bar for Ao and still not be a greater god. it's the waxing and waining bit that get's me, part of shar was ripped away also and created the weave, plus she has created the shadow weave, but little miss annihilate everything has always been a greater goddess. It aint fair on selune give her her powers back. Selune was a greater goddess back in the days of Netheril. I suspect that she has been more willing than Shar to allow aspects of her portfolios to devolve into the hands of other deities. So the power that was once her's is now spread out amongst multiple gods. Shar, in contrast, strives to subsume other deities wherever possible, preferring to hold power herself rather than have allies. I strongly suspect she's eyeballing Cyric, her current partner (just as he's eyeballing her portfolios).
Slayergnome 07-07-07, 01:34 AM	Just curious, what is your reasoning for placing Torm in with Bane/Cyric in the Anti- crowd? Torm's greatest desire is to see good prevail and see the destruction of Bane, in particular, and evil, in general. I would think he would be on Lathander's side. He is the god of duty so he would probably follow Tyr's lead, but in his fight with Bane he might be able to convince his master that it's necessary for justice to survive. I'd really be interested in your thoughts on this. There are alot of things that made me think he'd be against Lathanders DC...though not helping Bane or other evil deities per-say. Just in the same group of anti-DC. 1. Is his friendship to Helm. Helm would against Lathander on principle and in personal reasons as well. I feel Helms actions would help push Torm in the direction of Anti. 2. During the time of trouble Torm died fighting Bane due to his stealing of the Tablets of Fate. He knows what will happen when another god steps out of his place and tries to do something world shaking like wiping out pantheons or wiping out all evil. I think he'd much rather fight evil on the terms currently in place then let a loose cannon like Lathander re-arrange the Pantheons like he would. 3. Torm might perceive the destruction of many neutral and good gods as evil. Along with disliking someone stepping out of their duty. 4. I think Tyr would be against it also and the Triad tries to stick together [Thanks for someone reminding me of that]. So he'd likely work with them against Lathander.
PharaunMizzrym 07-07-07, 03:10 AM	Shar and Cyric may be eyeballing each others portfolios, but I doubt shar would try to subsume Cyric anytime soon. Get him addicted to the shadow weave (hes already tempted), use him as a pawn against the good and neutral deities, then subsume him. Thats more like Shar's style. Before Tyr tries to affect the outcome of the next DC, he may want to find some way of ridding himself of his physical disabilities. And yes, even though he is a deity they still affect him. Ilmater had to help him learn how to cope with his blindness, showing that his blindness at least prevents him from being as effective as he might otherwise have been. Tyr is still very powerful, but when two greater deities clash everything counts.
captaincarot 07-07-07, 03:19 AM	Selune was a greater goddess back in the days of Netheril. I suspect that she has been more willing than Shar to allow aspects of her portfolios to devolve into the hands of other deities. So the power that was once her's is now spread out amongst multiple gods. Shar, in contrast, strives to subsume other deities wherever possible, preferring to hold power herself rather than have allies. I strongly suspect she's eyeballing Cyric, her current partner (just as he's eyeballing her portfolios). hmm reasonable explanation /theory there. thankyou i could go with that.:)
Psionycx 07-07-07, 12:34 PM	hmm reasonable explanation /theory there. thankyou i could go with that.:) Thanks. This dawned on me while thinking about Amaunator/Lathander. If Selune is the primal deity of Light (as Shar is the deity of Darkness), then that means that for a sun god to exist in her pantheon at some point she would have had to allow the solar aspect of Light pass into Amaunator's portfolio. I think the primal battle between the two goddesses resulted in various portfolios getting spun off into the other deities that formed, and that Shar has spent the time since trying to reconsolidate her power whereas Selune has instead nutured the younger gods as allies rather than try and take the portfolios back.
MerrikCale 07-07-07, 03:49 PM	i know this is a bit off topic but, considering who selune and shar are, why is selune so weak. surely she should be much more powerful than she is. the same with shar surely those 2 should be the greatest of greater deities. she is, of course, on the rise, gaining in strength.
MattBlacke 07-07-07, 11:05 PM	Shar, in contrast, strives to subsume other deities wherever possible, preferring to hold power herself rather than have allies. I strongly suspect she's eyeballing Cyric, her current partner (just as he's eyeballing her portfolios). I like this idea too. I also have to wonder if she's playing a longer game than Shar gives her sister credit. By diffusing her power into other gods and nurturing them, she has gained more powerful allies. Shar stands nearly alone, while Selune can draw upon those allies in times of need. And perhaps that's the plan all along, to draw Shar in to be defeated en masse.
MerrikCale 07-08-07, 12:13 AM	I like this idea too. I also have to wonder if she's playing a longer game than Shar gives her sister credit. By diffusing her power into other gods and nurturing them, she has gained more powerful allies. Shar stands nearly alone, while Selune can draw upon those allies in times of need. And perhaps that's the plan all along, to draw Shar in to be defeated en masse. Certainly, Selune draws power from her many allies. It may be the biggest reason Shar, the more powerful sister, hasn't been able to finish her off. Selune has been very weak at times, once being even subservient to Sune
customdrapery 07-10-07, 10:08 AM	Here's another thought, maybe Lathander doesn't want the Faerunian and Mulhorandi pantheons to merge. While I agree that the original Dawn Cataclysm resulted in the merging of several early human pantheons, there is no hard evidence that this will happen during Lathander's current plan. Granted, I believe that this will happen eventually, but that could be a long long time off. Rather, I think that Lathander's goal is to claim the highsun portfolio without having to take on Horus-Re. If they are in separate pantheons, then they can co-exist with no problems. Of course, the real sticking point for Lathander is that "dawn" will fade and a new "highsun" will arise and he's going to make sure it's him. I've been thinking about how deities get portfolios and he must be able to get it if enough humans believe that he has it, i.e. that he's actually Amaunator. There's been enough talk that humans make the deities and I think that is exactly why Lathander tacitly allows the Risen Sun heresy to stay around. If there are enough folks who believe that he has the Highsun portfolio, then he can claim it, possibly take the lead for many of the good Faerunian gods, get his boost in power, and take on some of the evil gods. All without having to worry about Horus-Re at all. All he really needs to do is spread the thought that he is Amaunator reborn, which I think he's done pretty well. Also, when pantheons merge, one of the gods doesn't necessarily die. When all those early pantheons merged all they did was swap portfolios, increase or decrease in power. Most of them are still alive, just ask Garagos. When the Faerunian and Mulhorandi pantheons eventually merge, there will be the same events, then Lathander and Horus-Re can trade sun porfolios, but I don't think it will come to actual blows.
illithian 07-18-07, 06:51 PM	No one knows what Lathanders plans are. No one are even sure what he did in the first DC, only what the effect was. What if his plan is far simpler then an all out war. It is known that he has found a way tomerge 2 deities, he already tried this with Tymora and Beshaba, only to be foiled by finder wyrvenspur and a mortal. It is not imposible that he will try this again just wwith himself and another deity Horus-Re maybe and later with Selune for control over every hour of the day. Each god would cease to exist in its current state but would be reborn as a more powerfull deity with followers in 2 different pantheons.
MerrikCale 07-18-07, 10:27 PM	No one knows what Lathanders plans are. some of the other gods apparently know.
XHereticX 07-21-07, 10:49 PM	some of the other gods apparently know. Yes, and they are playing that card that says Lathander's foolishness (aka decisive action) will cause less damage than just letting things be. morons:rolleyes: :rolleyes: