Leira and Murdane ... how would you bring these 2 back? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Leira and Murdane ... how would you bring these 2 back? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
helicopter
10-31-07, 06:39 PM The dead goddesses Leira and Murdane have held a lot of interest to me as of late. Leira still has her fans in the WotC FRCS and Candlekeep forums ... while Murdane is more of an unknown commodity.

With 4E on the horizon, how would you folks bring these 2 interesting deities back into the "living" 4E FR fold?
BadCatMan
10-31-07, 08:13 PM Leira faked her own death at the hands of Cyric. With him out of the way, she is revealed, and carries on as the goddess of illusion and lies.

We know little about Murdane, beyond that she was a lesser goddess of reason and lover of Helm, and that she somehow died in the Dawn Cataclysm. Given the World Gone Mad! that will be FR4e, then no doubt people will be crying out for some force of rationality and rediscover her. Then she need only awaken and seek revenge against Tyr and Cyric.

Murdane vs Cyric would be nice: it's reason vs madness, which pretty much symbolizes the production of FR through the years.
SgtAnjay
10-31-07, 10:42 PM My own pet Leira conspiracy theory runs something along these lines...
Leira did get absorbed by Cyric....but it was, of course, a trick, a deception. She isn't dead, but a dormant seed within the divine energy that composes Cyric. She is, in fact, the voices inside Cyric's head.
Her guidance caused Cyric to weaken Mask, break Godsbane, and steal the Intrigue portfolio (revenge for Mask betraying her).
Her guidance caused the creation of the Cyrinishad: a deifically powerful book that convinces anyone who reads it that it's the truth despite being a complete lie? That's but a lesser version of Leira's masterwork plot, the Metatext.
She was why Cyric fell victim to his own Cyrinishad plot (notice the other god who fell for the Cyrinishad was Mask, previously her only "friend" and the one who betrayed her...some coincidence in light of the Cyrinishad being so simular to the Metatext), and his greater madness at this point (not only did he believe the Cyrinishad, he heard things that weren't there and saw hallucinations? attacks from the goddess of illusions anyone?) was a prelude to Leira finally overwhelming him from the inside. Then them darn do-gooders had to intervene, Cyric got all curified, and Leira was forced back into the depths of Cyric.
However....with Shar working on Cyric (which, knowing Shar, can't be for Cyric's own good), Cyric being at ground zero for the catastrophe caused by Mystra's death, and three greater deities of good moving against him and imprisoning him....perhaps Leira makes another move....coming out with not only with her original portfolios, but perhaps Intrigue as well as a nice little bonus.
johnkretzer
10-31-07, 11:31 PM Leira faked her own death at the hands of Cyric. With him out of the way, she is revealed, and carries on as the goddess of illusion and lies.

This prety much how I did it, with her hiding in the shadows making him believe he absorbed her portfolios...I also used her to foil the the murder of Mystra/Spellplague castrophere. As this was set up by Mystra a long time ago...
helicopter
11-03-07, 04:11 PM Wow .. great replies so far! Thanks for the excellent bushel of ideas regarding Leira. I like the idea that she's deceptively cloaked her presence so well, that she could actually arise again with even more power gained in her absence.

Now I have to think some more about Murdane. She's a lot more tricky. Badcatman's idea of weaving her into the impending Tyr/Helm drama sounds interesting.
johnkretzer
11-03-07, 04:51 PM Bringing back a dead god could be as simple has a resurgence of people's faith in them.
Lykor
11-04-07, 07:52 AM It's easy to bring Leira back, but it requires a significant departure from the "canon".

When Cyric ATTEMPTS to kill Mystra, he is killed in response. His portfolios are doled out to Bane (strife). Leira (since she was absorbed by Cyric) is brought back with Lies, Deception, and Illusion. You might even be able to add in a couple of Shar's portfolios.
helicopter
01-12-08, 10:55 PM Okay, I'm guilty of necromancing my own thread ..... but goshdarnit, I'm now wondering if Murdane might get some sort of resurrection back into 4th Ed.
Gray Richardson
01-13-08, 12:29 AM There is some evidence in the Faiths & Pantheons sourcebook that Leira made some sort of "backup" of herself. I don't know if she was anticipating trouble, but she was a goddess of magic. It is possible that her own diviners, or maybe the god Savras might have foretold that she would be killed at some point. Maybe she used her illusions and deception to fool Savras into revealing some crucial insight into her fate. Or maybe she was only trying to play a big practical joke on Deneir.

Regardless, we are told that Deneir and his church are searching fervently for bits of text and writing from all across Faerun, that together comprise something called the "Metatext". Deneir believes the Metatext will reveal important information, perhaps the secrets of the cosmos. But Faiths & Pantheons suggests that the Metatext is a fool's errand, a ruse on the part of Leira. If this "metatext" exists and is ever assembled correctly, it might bring Leira back to life.
msatran
01-14-08, 11:15 PM Here's how I bring Murdane back.

So offended is Lord Ao by the ridiculousness of the idea of a Spellplague, that he waves his hand and ressurrects Murdane in the hope that SOMEONE, ANYONE will make this ridiculous Tymanther, Spellplague, Death of Mystra crap see reason. He sends her through Ed's Bedroom, and she finds the designers and smites them until history is back on it's proper course.
Vrboo
01-15-08, 12:21 AM Here's how I bring Murdane back.

So offended is Lord Ao by the ridiculousness of the idea of a Spellplague, that he waves his hand and ressurrects Murdane in the hope that SOMEONE, ANYONE will make this ridiculous Tymanther, Spellplague, Death of Mystra crap see reason. He sends her through Ed's Bedroom, and she finds the designers and smites them until history is back on it's proper course.Ed's 'Bedroom' is capitalized? I don't think I want to know why ...
Lord Karsus
01-15-08, 04:15 AM -While not as silly as what msa said, I think tying Murdnane's resurrection to the Spellplague is intriguing. She returns, to bring a sense of order to orderless places.
Khaelieth
01-15-08, 08:21 AM Back-up for Leira... On Ao's Holy Laptop, all he needs to do is to a system reboot. Who needs the Tablets of Fate if you've got Ao's laptop!?
Lord Karsus
01-15-08, 08:39 AM Who needs the Tablets of Fate if you've got Ao's laptop!?

-The Tablets of Fate were destroyed, anyway.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
01-15-08, 09:36 AM I like the concept of Murdane.:) I think a deity of logic, reason, pragmatism, etc. is highly necessary. Wouldn't be upset if she came back (but of course, I don't plan to use the 4E Realms anyway, so...).
Rauric
01-15-08, 09:46 AM Mask brings her back. Supposedly she was killed when Cyric had Godsbane right? GOdsbane was really Mask in disguise. Mask kept Kelemvor safe after Kels death till Mask needed him, then he set him loose to attack Cyric right?
I would do it like that, Mask planned to use Leira later on for whatever he needed after she was "killed". So Mask is in the middle of some conflict with Shar and Cyric is somewhat in the background through it. Mask springs Leria at some point when he needs her most. He beats Cyric, she gets her Illusion portfolio bakc, Mask gets Intrigue back and maybe something else, gets raised to Greater Deity staus, and Leria works under Mask's protection from now on. Now Mask has a potent ally agaisnt Shar, and he gets a little power added to himself that will let him fight off other Greaters that may want to mess with him.

Anyway that is how I will do it in 4E, unless the books story about Mask is better.;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
01-15-08, 11:06 AM *laughs* What's this obsession with Mask?:)
Rauric
01-15-08, 11:55 AM He is just the one "evil" god that does not seem "mwahaha" evil and worshipping him would make sense if I had an evil or neutral pc. That is why I like Kemps novels so much. He is righting the wrong when Prince of Lies misrepresented Mask and tired to "push" the upstart Cyric.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
01-15-08, 05:57 PM I agree that Mask is one of the more intriguing evil gods.
Lord Karsus
01-15-08, 06:00 PM So Mask is in the middle of some conflict with Shar and Cyric is somewhat in the background through it. Mask springs Leria at some point when he needs her most. He beats Cyric, she gets her Illusion portfolio bakc, Mask gets Intrigue back and maybe something else, gets raised to Greater Deity staus, and Leria works under Mask's protection from now on.

-Much easier said than done.
Kenzuki
01-15-08, 06:07 PM I may be wrong but Mask doesn't seem like the aformentioned "bwahaha I'm evol sacrifice babies to me!" like Bane and the others seem to be.

I'm of the opinion that you can still be evil and not go around sacrificing babies and all that crap. Evil people can have morals too you know!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
01-15-08, 07:13 PM I may be wrong but Mask doesn't seem like the aformentioned "bwahaha I'm evol sacrifice babies to me!" like Bane and the others seem to be.

I'm of the opinion that you can still be evil and not go around sacrificing babies and all that crap. Evil people can have morals too you know!

Well...I could have sworn that one of the priests of Mask in Shadow's Witness was mentioned to have made candles out of baby fat for ritual purposes.
Kenzuki
01-15-08, 07:18 PM Well...I could have sworn that one of the priests of Mask in Shadow's Witness was mentioned to have made candles out of baby fat for ritual purposes.

Ah, I haven't read that book yet. It's on my things to do list though.

Erevis Cale seems like a guy I need to check out. I'm currently reading the War of the Spider Queen series, I'm on the second book so far.
Rauric
01-15-08, 08:59 PM -Much easier said than done.

For a god that has been around for a loooong time and who had the portfolio of Inrigue at one point (for a few thousand years maybe) I think it is very plausable.
Kenzuki
01-15-08, 10:51 PM Well...I could have sworn that one of the priests of Mask in Shadow's Witness was mentioned to have made candles out of baby fat for ritual purposes.

Come to think of it I think I read the pdf preview for that book. Didn't that priest buy that candle as opposed to making it himself. He was summoning a demon after all.
Lord Karsus
01-15-08, 11:48 PM For a god that has been around for a loooong time and who had the portfolio of Inrigue at one point (for a few thousand years maybe) I think it is very plausable.

-Mask having some kind of scheme is very in character for him, but being able to best Shar so easily is much easier said than done.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
01-16-08, 01:27 PM Come to think of it I think I read the pdf preview for that book. Didn't that priest buy that candle as opposed to making it himself. He was summoning a demon after all.

I don't recall whether or not he bought the candle. But I also don't think that makes a difference, either.
Book Hat
01-17-08, 02:43 PM I like the concept of Murdane.:) I think a deity of logic, reason, pragmatism, etc. is highly necessary. Wouldn't be upset if she came back (but of course, I don't plan to use the 4E Realms anyway, so...).Agreed. I like the concept of such a deity in the Realms.

Although it's hard to imagine a battle cry of a priest of Murdane.

"In the name of reason, common sense, and practicality, I smite thee, oh irrational practicitioner of foolish acts!"
Rauric
01-17-08, 02:54 PM -Much easier said than done.

If it goes like planned, ex-goddess who was mistress of illusions and ex-god of intrigue could pull it off. Like I said it is pretty plausable. Especially with Shar plotting to kill Mystra.
Lord Karsus
01-18-08, 05:01 AM If it goes like planned, ex-goddess who was mistress of illusions and ex-god of intrigue could pull it off. Like I said it is pretty plausable. Especially with Shar plotting to kill Mystra.

-I doubt that Mask and a slightly repowered Liera can take down Cyric, when/if push ever came to shove. I don't think their DvRs combined equal his.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
01-18-08, 06:52 PM Agreed. I like the concept of such a deity in the Realms.

Although it's hard to imagine a battle cry of a priest of Murdane.

"In the name of reason, common sense, and practicality, I smite thee, oh irrational practicitioner of foolish acts!"

I would associate such a goddess with truth.:) I would create a battle cry for her based around truth. And of course, you could base it on the faith's alignment, as well.
Kenzuki
01-18-08, 06:54 PM I would associate such a goddess with truth.:) I would create a battle cry for her based around truth. And of course, you could base it on the faith's alignment, as well.

Well considering the God of Truth (Savras) is dead......we have an opening!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
01-18-08, 06:56 PM Murdane doesn't rule over Truth, just the means of finding it.:)
Rauric
01-18-08, 09:36 PM I dont go for any of that Divine Rank BS. Plus if a novelist or a game designer wishes to make it so then it happens. Anyway I think it is possible to trick Cyric and Shar, just when they are planning their big assassination attemp on Mystra. They will be so focused on her and their plan that they won't see
Leira and Mask coming. Plus Kel did a pretty good job against Cyric in the novel, and he wasn't even a god yet. :D
Lord Karsus
01-19-08, 12:57 AM I dont go for any of that Divine Rank BS. Plus if a novelist or a game designer wishes to make it so then it happens.

-That's when we come in, nitpicking, destroying and disproving the concept in the sourcebook/adventure/novel.
Gray Richardson
01-19-08, 01:19 AM Murdane doesn't rule over Truth, just the means of finding it.:)True that. Murdane's portfolio included both reason and pragmatism. While reason may be a means of arriving at the truth, pragmatism is often a means of skirting around it. ;)
Rauric
01-19-08, 09:22 AM Aye, but the thread was about ideas, not nitpicking ideas.;) Alas what would the FR boards be without people saying your ideas are impossible? Ohe yeah, the Eberron boards :rofl:
Lord Karsus
01-19-08, 09:28 AM Aye, but the thread was about ideas, not nitpicking ideas.;) Alas what would the FR boards be without people saying your ideas are impossible? Ohe yeah, the Eberron boards :rofl:

-Last time I checked, criticism was a major part of the creative process. And, believe it or not, it's actually fairly hard to get good constructive criticism.
Rauric
01-19-08, 10:17 AM People don't really offer much positive criticism on here sorry. They usually just say what is "wrong" with something or express their dislike in something without ever offering a decent way to make something better. More often than not this is the story, except for a few rare occasions.

Anyway Karsus do you have any ideas as the thread suggests? ;)

On a side note I really don't wish to argue about this. I will let you get in the last word which is what you really want anyway and we will call it a day.
Lord Karsus
01-19-08, 10:20 AM Anyway Karsus do you have any ideas as the thread suggests? ;)

-I already expressed my opinion on page one...:rolleyes:
Alkasyn
02-13-08, 06:00 PM I was thinking recently - how did Murdane die, and what's the true story behind it all?? It gives a new twist to Helm which I never have seen.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
02-13-08, 07:11 PM I was thinking recently - how did Murdane die, and what's the true story behind it all?? It gives a new twist to Helm which I never have seen.

We've never been given a detailed explanation for Murdane's death, but a sidebar in the GHotR suggests that the goddess drowned.
Alkasyn
02-14-08, 05:52 AM We've never been given a detailed explanation for Murdane's death, but a sidebar in the GHotR suggests that the goddess drowned.

Thanks - is she given a diety description in the 2nd edition books, too?
Draco Spirit
02-14-08, 11:23 AM I may be wrong but Mask doesn't seem like the aformentioned "bwahaha I'm evol sacrifice babies to me!" like Bane and the others seem to be.

I'm of the opinion that you can still be evil and not go around sacrificing babies and all that crap. Evil people can have morals too you know!

The diffrence between bad (backstabing thiefing and being a selfish git) and vile (summoning demons, animating undead and doing mass genocide).

And Mask and his church always struck me more as the bad type on the whole..
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
02-14-08, 02:01 PM Thanks - is she given a diety description in the 2nd edition books, too?

I don't know, sorry.
Alkasyn
02-15-08, 02:32 PM I don't know, sorry.

COme to think of it, she died in the Dawn Cataclysm, which occured at around 150 DR, right?? Thats way too long for 2 ed to cover, I think. (I just studied my copy of the Grand History:P)
Keryth
02-15-08, 03:18 PM This prety much how I did it, with her hiding in the shadows making him believe he absorbed her portfolios...I also used her to foil the the murder of Mystra/Spellplague castrophere. As this was set up by Mystra a long time ago...

Hmm, care to elaborate on this some more? Lleirra stopping the murder of Mystra and returning after deceiving Cyric sounds intriguing.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
02-15-08, 07:04 PM COme to think of it, she died in the Dawn Cataclysm, which occured at around 150 DR, right?? Thats way too long for 2 ed to cover, I think. (I just studied my copy of the Grand History:P)

The Dawn Cataclysm has never been given a date.:) But if you put various bits of lore together, you can probably come up with an approximate date (or range of dates).
msatran
02-15-08, 08:26 PM I wish that the Realms Designers had a personal dawn cataclysm of their very own, and were consumed by Amaunator's Eternal Sun.

The more I read, the more I loathe.
Alkasyn
02-16-08, 07:30 AM The Dawn Cataclysm has never been given a date.:) But if you put various bits of lore together, you can probably come up with an approximate date (or range of dates).

Yea, that's the feeling I got from the sidebar in GhoTR, but assumed its clarified somewhere else:)
Soltares
02-18-08, 03:29 PM I've got most of the 2nd edition books, and quite a few of the novels from that time period, and I have no clue who this Murdane is. Lleira got a lot of mention, and was quite popular in Waterdeep, notably, but I don't think Murdane has gotten a lot of mention.

I read a whacky rumor somewhere that she might have become the Red Knight.

As for how I'd bring Lleira back, expeditiously.
Alkasyn
02-18-08, 04:25 PM I've got most of the 2nd edition books, and quite a few of the novels from that time period, and I have no clue who this Murdane is. Lleira got a lot of mention, and was quite popular in Waterdeep, notably, but I don't think Murdane has gotten a lot of mention.

I read a whacky rumor somewhere that she might have become the Red Knight.

As for how I'd bring Lleira back, expeditiously.

Come to think of that, there is something in it - Red Knight is the god of Tactics, so her and Murdane's portfolios would overlap.

Red Knight sticks with Tempus, though:)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
helicopter 10-31-07, 06:39 PM	The dead goddesses Leira and Murdane have held a lot of interest to me as of late. Leira still has her fans in the WotC FRCS and Candlekeep forums ... while Murdane is more of an unknown commodity. With 4E on the horizon, how would you folks bring these 2 interesting deities back into the "living" 4E FR fold?
BadCatMan 10-31-07, 08:13 PM	Leira faked her own death at the hands of Cyric. With him out of the way, she is revealed, and carries on as the goddess of illusion and lies. We know little about Murdane, beyond that she was a lesser goddess of reason and lover of Helm, and that she somehow died in the Dawn Cataclysm. Given the World Gone Mad! that will be FR4e, then no doubt people will be crying out for some force of rationality and rediscover her. Then she need only awaken and seek revenge against Tyr and Cyric. Murdane vs Cyric would be nice: it's reason vs madness, which pretty much symbolizes the production of FR through the years.
SgtAnjay 10-31-07, 10:42 PM	My own pet Leira conspiracy theory runs something along these lines... Leira did get absorbed by Cyric....but it was, of course, a trick, a deception. She isn't dead, but a dormant seed within the divine energy that composes Cyric. She is, in fact, the voices inside Cyric's head. Her guidance caused Cyric to weaken Mask, break Godsbane, and steal the Intrigue portfolio (revenge for Mask betraying her). Her guidance caused the creation of the Cyrinishad: a deifically powerful book that convinces anyone who reads it that it's the truth despite being a complete lie? That's but a lesser version of Leira's masterwork plot, the Metatext. She was why Cyric fell victim to his own Cyrinishad plot (notice the other god who fell for the Cyrinishad was Mask, previously her only "friend" and the one who betrayed her...some coincidence in light of the Cyrinishad being so simular to the Metatext), and his greater madness at this point (not only did he believe the Cyrinishad, he heard things that weren't there and saw hallucinations? attacks from the goddess of illusions anyone?) was a prelude to Leira finally overwhelming him from the inside. Then them darn do-gooders had to intervene, Cyric got all curified, and Leira was forced back into the depths of Cyric. However....with Shar working on Cyric (which, knowing Shar, can't be for Cyric's own good), Cyric being at ground zero for the catastrophe caused by Mystra's death, and three greater deities of good moving against him and imprisoning him....perhaps Leira makes another move....coming out with not only with her original portfolios, but perhaps Intrigue as well as a nice little bonus.
johnkretzer 10-31-07, 11:31 PM	Leira faked her own death at the hands of Cyric. With him out of the way, she is revealed, and carries on as the goddess of illusion and lies. This prety much how I did it, with her hiding in the shadows making him believe he absorbed her portfolios...I also used her to foil the the murder of Mystra/Spellplague castrophere. As this was set up by Mystra a long time ago...
helicopter 11-03-07, 04:11 PM	Wow .. great replies so far! Thanks for the excellent bushel of ideas regarding Leira. I like the idea that she's deceptively cloaked her presence so well, that she could actually arise again with even more power gained in her absence. Now I have to think some more about Murdane. She's a lot more tricky. Badcatman's idea of weaving her into the impending Tyr/Helm drama sounds interesting.
johnkretzer 11-03-07, 04:51 PM	Bringing back a dead god could be as simple has a resurgence of people's faith in them.
Lykor 11-04-07, 07:52 AM	It's easy to bring Leira back, but it requires a significant departure from the "canon". When Cyric ATTEMPTS to kill Mystra, he is killed in response. His portfolios are doled out to Bane (strife). Leira (since she was absorbed by Cyric) is brought back with Lies, Deception, and Illusion. You might even be able to add in a couple of Shar's portfolios.
helicopter 01-12-08, 10:55 PM	Okay, I'm guilty of necromancing my own thread ..... but goshdarnit, I'm now wondering if Murdane might get some sort of resurrection back into 4th Ed.
Gray Richardson 01-13-08, 12:29 AM	There is some evidence in the Faiths & Pantheons sourcebook that Leira made some sort of "backup" of herself. I don't know if she was anticipating trouble, but she was a goddess of magic. It is possible that her own diviners, or maybe the god Savras might have foretold that she would be killed at some point. Maybe she used her illusions and deception to fool Savras into revealing some crucial insight into her fate. Or maybe she was only trying to play a big practical joke on Deneir. Regardless, we are told that Deneir and his church are searching fervently for bits of text and writing from all across Faerun, that together comprise something called the "Metatext". Deneir believes the Metatext will reveal important information, perhaps the secrets of the cosmos. But Faiths & Pantheons suggests that the Metatext is a fool's errand, a ruse on the part of Leira. If this "metatext" exists and is ever assembled correctly, it might bring Leira back to life.
msatran 01-14-08, 11:15 PM	Here's how I bring Murdane back. So offended is Lord Ao by the ridiculousness of the idea of a Spellplague, that he waves his hand and ressurrects Murdane in the hope that SOMEONE, ANYONE will make this ridiculous Tymanther, Spellplague, Death of Mystra crap see reason. He sends her through Ed's Bedroom, and she finds the designers and smites them until history is back on it's proper course.
Vrboo 01-15-08, 12:21 AM	Here's how I bring Murdane back. So offended is Lord Ao by the ridiculousness of the idea of a Spellplague, that he waves his hand and ressurrects Murdane in the hope that SOMEONE, ANYONE will make this ridiculous Tymanther, Spellplague, Death of Mystra crap see reason. He sends her through Ed's Bedroom, and she finds the designers and smites them until history is back on it's proper course.Ed's 'Bedroom' is capitalized? I don't think I want to know why ...
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 04:15 AM	-While not as silly as what msa said, I think tying Murdnane's resurrection to the Spellplague is intriguing. She returns, to bring a sense of order to orderless places.
Khaelieth 01-15-08, 08:21 AM	Back-up for Leira... On Ao's Holy Laptop, all he needs to do is to a system reboot. Who needs the Tablets of Fate if you've got Ao's laptop!?
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 08:39 AM	Who needs the Tablets of Fate if you've got Ao's laptop!? -The Tablets of Fate were destroyed, anyway.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-15-08, 09:36 AM	I like the concept of Murdane.:) I think a deity of logic, reason, pragmatism, etc. is highly necessary. Wouldn't be upset if she came back (but of course, I don't plan to use the 4E Realms anyway, so...).
Rauric 01-15-08, 09:46 AM	Mask brings her back. Supposedly she was killed when Cyric had Godsbane right? GOdsbane was really Mask in disguise. Mask kept Kelemvor safe after Kels death till Mask needed him, then he set him loose to attack Cyric right? I would do it like that, Mask planned to use Leira later on for whatever he needed after she was "killed". So Mask is in the middle of some conflict with Shar and Cyric is somewhat in the background through it. Mask springs Leria at some point when he needs her most. He beats Cyric, she gets her Illusion portfolio bakc, Mask gets Intrigue back and maybe something else, gets raised to Greater Deity staus, and Leria works under Mask's protection from now on. Now Mask has a potent ally agaisnt Shar, and he gets a little power added to himself that will let him fight off other Greaters that may want to mess with him. Anyway that is how I will do it in 4E, unless the books story about Mask is better.;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-15-08, 11:06 AM	laughs What's this obsession with Mask?:)
Rauric 01-15-08, 11:55 AM	He is just the one "evil" god that does not seem "mwahaha" evil and worshipping him would make sense if I had an evil or neutral pc. That is why I like Kemps novels so much. He is righting the wrong when Prince of Lies misrepresented Mask and tired to "push" the upstart Cyric.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-15-08, 05:57 PM	I agree that Mask is one of the more intriguing evil gods.
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 06:00 PM	So Mask is in the middle of some conflict with Shar and Cyric is somewhat in the background through it. Mask springs Leria at some point when he needs her most. He beats Cyric, she gets her Illusion portfolio bakc, Mask gets Intrigue back and maybe something else, gets raised to Greater Deity staus, and Leria works under Mask's protection from now on. -Much easier said than done.
Kenzuki 01-15-08, 06:07 PM	I may be wrong but Mask doesn't seem like the aformentioned "bwahaha I'm evol sacrifice babies to me!" like Bane and the others seem to be. I'm of the opinion that you can still be evil and not go around sacrificing babies and all that crap. Evil people can have morals too you know!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-15-08, 07:13 PM	I may be wrong but Mask doesn't seem like the aformentioned "bwahaha I'm evol sacrifice babies to me!" like Bane and the others seem to be. I'm of the opinion that you can still be evil and not go around sacrificing babies and all that crap. Evil people can have morals too you know! Well...I could have sworn that one of the priests of Mask in Shadow's Witness was mentioned to have made candles out of baby fat for ritual purposes.
Kenzuki 01-15-08, 07:18 PM	Well...I could have sworn that one of the priests of Mask in Shadow's Witness was mentioned to have made candles out of baby fat for ritual purposes. Ah, I haven't read that book yet. It's on my things to do list though. Erevis Cale seems like a guy I need to check out. I'm currently reading the War of the Spider Queen series, I'm on the second book so far.
Rauric 01-15-08, 08:59 PM	-Much easier said than done. For a god that has been around for a loooong time and who had the portfolio of Inrigue at one point (for a few thousand years maybe) I think it is very plausable.
Kenzuki 01-15-08, 10:51 PM	Well...I could have sworn that one of the priests of Mask in Shadow's Witness was mentioned to have made candles out of baby fat for ritual purposes. Come to think of it I think I read the pdf preview for that book. Didn't that priest buy that candle as opposed to making it himself. He was summoning a demon after all.
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 11:48 PM	For a god that has been around for a loooong time and who had the portfolio of Inrigue at one point (for a few thousand years maybe) I think it is very plausable. -Mask having some kind of scheme is very in character for him, but being able to best Shar so easily is much easier said than done.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-16-08, 01:27 PM	Come to think of it I think I read the pdf preview for that book. Didn't that priest buy that candle as opposed to making it himself. He was summoning a demon after all. I don't recall whether or not he bought the candle. But I also don't think that makes a difference, either.
Book Hat 01-17-08, 02:43 PM	I like the concept of Murdane.:) I think a deity of logic, reason, pragmatism, etc. is highly necessary. Wouldn't be upset if she came back (but of course, I don't plan to use the 4E Realms anyway, so...).Agreed. I like the concept of such a deity in the Realms. Although it's hard to imagine a battle cry of a priest of Murdane. "In the name of reason, common sense, and practicality, I smite thee, oh irrational practicitioner of foolish acts!"
Rauric 01-17-08, 02:54 PM	-Much easier said than done. If it goes like planned, ex-goddess who was mistress of illusions and ex-god of intrigue could pull it off. Like I said it is pretty plausable. Especially with Shar plotting to kill Mystra.
Lord Karsus 01-18-08, 05:01 AM	If it goes like planned, ex-goddess who was mistress of illusions and ex-god of intrigue could pull it off. Like I said it is pretty plausable. Especially with Shar plotting to kill Mystra. -I doubt that Mask and a slightly repowered Liera can take down Cyric, when/if push ever came to shove. I don't think their DvRs combined equal his.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-18-08, 06:52 PM	Agreed. I like the concept of such a deity in the Realms. Although it's hard to imagine a battle cry of a priest of Murdane. "In the name of reason, common sense, and practicality, I smite thee, oh irrational practicitioner of foolish acts!" I would associate such a goddess with truth.:) I would create a battle cry for her based around truth. And of course, you could base it on the faith's alignment, as well.
Kenzuki 01-18-08, 06:54 PM	I would associate such a goddess with truth.:) I would create a battle cry for her based around truth. And of course, you could base it on the faith's alignment, as well. Well considering the God of Truth (Savras) is dead......we have an opening!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-18-08, 06:56 PM	Murdane doesn't rule over Truth, just the means of finding it.:)
Rauric 01-18-08, 09:36 PM	I dont go for any of that Divine Rank BS. Plus if a novelist or a game designer wishes to make it so then it happens. Anyway I think it is possible to trick Cyric and Shar, just when they are planning their big assassination attemp on Mystra. They will be so focused on her and their plan that they won't see Leira and Mask coming. Plus Kel did a pretty good job against Cyric in the novel, and he wasn't even a god yet. :D
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 12:57 AM	I dont go for any of that Divine Rank BS. Plus if a novelist or a game designer wishes to make it so then it happens. -That's when we come in, nitpicking, destroying and disproving the concept in the sourcebook/adventure/novel.
Gray Richardson 01-19-08, 01:19 AM	Murdane doesn't rule over Truth, just the means of finding it.:)True that. Murdane's portfolio included both reason and pragmatism. While reason may be a means of arriving at the truth, pragmatism is often a means of skirting around it. ;)
Rauric 01-19-08, 09:22 AM	Aye, but the thread was about ideas, not nitpicking ideas.;) Alas what would the FR boards be without people saying your ideas are impossible? Ohe yeah, the Eberron boards :rofl:
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 09:28 AM	Aye, but the thread was about ideas, not nitpicking ideas.;) Alas what would the FR boards be without people saying your ideas are impossible? Ohe yeah, the Eberron boards :rofl: -Last time I checked, criticism was a major part of the creative process. And, believe it or not, it's actually fairly hard to get good constructive criticism.
Rauric 01-19-08, 10:17 AM	People don't really offer much positive criticism on here sorry. They usually just say what is "wrong" with something or express their dislike in something without ever offering a decent way to make something better. More often than not this is the story, except for a few rare occasions. Anyway Karsus do you have any ideas as the thread suggests? ;) On a side note I really don't wish to argue about this. I will let you get in the last word which is what you really want anyway and we will call it a day.
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 10:20 AM	Anyway Karsus do you have any ideas as the thread suggests? ;) -I already expressed my opinion on page one...:rolleyes:
Alkasyn 02-13-08, 06:00 PM	I was thinking recently - how did Murdane die, and what's the true story behind it all?? It gives a new twist to Helm which I never have seen.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-13-08, 07:11 PM	I was thinking recently - how did Murdane die, and what's the true story behind it all?? It gives a new twist to Helm which I never have seen. We've never been given a detailed explanation for Murdane's death, but a sidebar in the GHotR suggests that the goddess drowned.
Alkasyn 02-14-08, 05:52 AM	We've never been given a detailed explanation for Murdane's death, but a sidebar in the GHotR suggests that the goddess drowned. Thanks - is she given a diety description in the 2nd edition books, too?
Draco Spirit 02-14-08, 11:23 AM	I may be wrong but Mask doesn't seem like the aformentioned "bwahaha I'm evol sacrifice babies to me!" like Bane and the others seem to be. I'm of the opinion that you can still be evil and not go around sacrificing babies and all that crap. Evil people can have morals too you know! The diffrence between bad (backstabing thiefing and being a selfish git) and vile (summoning demons, animating undead and doing mass genocide). And Mask and his church always struck me more as the bad type on the whole..
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-14-08, 02:01 PM	Thanks - is she given a diety description in the 2nd edition books, too? I don't know, sorry.
Alkasyn 02-15-08, 02:32 PM	I don't know, sorry. COme to think of it, she died in the Dawn Cataclysm, which occured at around 150 DR, right?? Thats way too long for 2 ed to cover, I think. (I just studied my copy of the Grand History:P)
Keryth 02-15-08, 03:18 PM	This prety much how I did it, with her hiding in the shadows making him believe he absorbed her portfolios...I also used her to foil the the murder of Mystra/Spellplague castrophere. As this was set up by Mystra a long time ago... Hmm, care to elaborate on this some more? Lleirra stopping the murder of Mystra and returning after deceiving Cyric sounds intriguing.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-15-08, 07:04 PM	COme to think of it, she died in the Dawn Cataclysm, which occured at around 150 DR, right?? Thats way too long for 2 ed to cover, I think. (I just studied my copy of the Grand History:P) The Dawn Cataclysm has never been given a date.:) But if you put various bits of lore together, you can probably come up with an approximate date (or range of dates).
msatran 02-15-08, 08:26 PM	I wish that the Realms Designers had a personal dawn cataclysm of their very own, and were consumed by Amaunator's Eternal Sun. The more I read, the more I loathe.
Alkasyn 02-16-08, 07:30 AM	The Dawn Cataclysm has never been given a date.:) But if you put various bits of lore together, you can probably come up with an approximate date (or range of dates). Yea, that's the feeling I got from the sidebar in GhoTR, but assumed its clarified somewhere else:)
Soltares 02-18-08, 03:29 PM	I've got most of the 2nd edition books, and quite a few of the novels from that time period, and I have no clue who this Murdane is. Lleira got a lot of mention, and was quite popular in Waterdeep, notably, but I don't think Murdane has gotten a lot of mention. I read a whacky rumor somewhere that she might have become the Red Knight. As for how I'd bring Lleira back, expeditiously.
Alkasyn 02-18-08, 04:25 PM	I've got most of the 2nd edition books, and quite a few of the novels from that time period, and I have no clue who this Murdane is. Lleira got a lot of mention, and was quite popular in Waterdeep, notably, but I don't think Murdane has gotten a lot of mention. I read a whacky rumor somewhere that she might have become the Red Knight. As for how I'd bring Lleira back, expeditiously. Come to think of that, there is something in it - Red Knight is the god of Tactics, so her and Murdane's portfolios would overlap. Red Knight sticks with Tempus, though:)