Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lahlaos 06-21-07, 08:22 PM	lol yes a question youve all probably been asked before.....what ARE the 10th Level spells so far i have 1......Creation:) if any of you know any links or KNOW any of the spells that would be great Tanks Grant Spain aka Lahlaos
Karsus the Mad 06-22-07, 08:20 AM	lol yes a question youve all probably been asked before.....what ARE the 10th Level spells so far i have 1......Creation:) if any of you know any links or KNOW any of the spells that would be great Tanks Grant Spain aka Lahlaos 2e Netheril: Empire of Magic, a free download here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads contains true 10th+ spells. Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves, also a free download, contain a few elven 10th level spells. Note tho' that the elven 10th level spells that have been updated to 3.5 have been retconned either into epic spells, or 9th level magic.
Samej 06-22-07, 03:24 PM	Epic Level handbook has quite a few 10th level spells and focuses their creation with the Mecahanic of Spell Seeds, or ingredients that make up a 10th level spells effect. For example, adding the effect of backlash damage to a mass Slay spell will decrease the Spellcraft DC. Example 10th Level spell from ELH (one of my favorites) Momento Mori Necromancy (Death) Spellcraft DC: 86 Components: None Casting Time: 1 Quickened Action Range: 300 ft. Target: One Living Creature Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fort Partial (See text) Spell Resistance: Yes To Develop: (to reasearch this spell and pay for the resources used to create this spell) 774,000 gp; 16 days; 30,960 XP;. Spell Seeds: Slay (Spellcraft DC +25). Factor: Increase to 160 HD (+8 DC), Quickened (+28 DC), No verbal or somatic components (+4 DC), +10 to DC of subjects Save (+10 DC). Your passing thought connotes death for the target. As a free action that counts as a quickened spell, you will the target dead without word or gesture. Your bloodthirsty wish snuffs out the lifeforce of a living creature of 160 or fewer HD, killing it instantly. The subject is entitled to a Fortitude Saving throw (DC 30+Relevant Ability Modifier) to have a chance of surviving the attack. If the save is succesfull, the target instead takes 3d6+20 points of damage. ------------------ You could lower the spellcraft DC by adding backlash damage or taking out the quickened casting time and can increase the DC by making the Fort Save DC higher or adding another effect entirely. In this sense Epic Spells are very flexible and allow for a great amount of different types and effects of spells.
Karsus the Mad 06-22-07, 09:29 PM	Epic Spells are not true 10th level spells. They're treated as 10th level spells for DC and concentration checks, but are not actually 10th level spells.
Samej 06-23-07, 05:28 PM	Huh, I didnt know that. How would an epic spell be represented then? And how much more uber can a true 10th lvl spell be?
lavekkia 06-23-07, 07:10 PM	Player Guide to Faerun converted some of them as epic spells (not very well if you ask me) Others are listed here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=548975 You willl find pretty much every spell from Netheril: Empire Of Magic converted here (if i m not mistaken the only one not converted is Proctiv Seal/Breach Crystal Sphere: my epic nemesis :P ) The general consensus is that Netherese magic predating the fall of Netheril was generelly more powerful than epic magic (or at least it allowed more powerful effects with less effort). Note also that known 10th+ lvl spells are only a bunch (no more than 15) so we don't know their real true potential... This reasoning purposedly left out Karsus Avatar spell since it is something apart from the rest
Lord Karsus 06-23-07, 08:17 PM	And how much more uber can a true 10th lvl spell be? -True 10th Level spells did not have mitigating factors and all that hooplah, like Epic Magic has. Thus, you could cast a spell as strong as Epic Magic, but with no consequences to you.
Karsus the Mad 06-23-07, 09:49 PM	Player Guide to Faerun converted some of them as epic spells (not very well if you ask me) Others are listed here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=548975 You willl find pretty much every spell from Netheril: Empire Of Magic converted here (if i m not mistaken the only one not converted is Proctiv Seal/Breach Crystal Sphere: my epic nemesis That one has been a thorn in my side as well. I think the best (or at least most doable) way is to break it up into two seperate spells (or include a variant "dismissal" factor) and reduce it to "seal planet" rather than crystal sphere.
lavekkia 06-24-07, 09:22 AM	That one has been a thorn in my side as well. I think the best (or at least most doable) way is to break it up into two seperate spells (or include a variant "dismissal" factor) and reduce it to "seal planet" rather than crystal sphere. I have managed to cut down the cost VERY much using a simple formula: instead of creating a single mythal - like ward of the same radius as the crystal sphere i close the single portals whenever they open (reducing the Area to more or less 3000 half mile diameter spheres for Realmspace)
GhoX 06-27-07, 04:10 AM	I remember using a few lvl 10 spells in BG2:TOB Dragon Breath, Comet and another spell that removes the waiting between spell castings... that's all I can remember.
Karsus the Mad 06-27-07, 06:34 PM	I remember using a few lvl 10 spells in BG2:TOB Dragon Breath, Comet and another spell that removes the waiting between spell castings... that's all I can remember. They took up a 9th level spell slot. They weren't "10th" level, nor were they "epic". BG2: ToB was a transistion game. They tried to incorporate true dweomers, but the Infinity Engine simply wasn't capable of duplicating such. What they designed was just uber effects (with custom sprites). Technically speaking, even magic missle could have been any level you desired. I personally created a 24 missle version of magic missle (as a special ability for my Jalynfein NPC). It takes some editing but is doable, despite the max magic missle sprite being 10 missles.
Marshal.Nemesis 06-28-07, 12:46 AM	10th lvl spells hmm.. careful what you wish.. :)
captaincarot 06-28-07, 12:15 PM	ahh why can't we have the proper spell sequencer from TOB and chain contingency in the paper game. :weep: :weep: :weep: :weep: i used to love chain contingency. a couple of spell defense strippers followed by an abi dhalzims horrid wilting mmmmmm everything dies.
Azameth22 07-07-07, 11:08 PM	First off please forgive my noobishness. I've lurked on these forums a bit but never really gotten into it much. Ok so from this topic it seems like 10th level spells are much more powerful then epic spellcasting? Now after that we have 10th level spells, but I'm wondering how much higher it goes. I could be completely wrong but I believe I have read that Larloch had promission from Mystra to research up to 11th level spells and that Karsus' Avatar was a 12th level? First off is this true and secondly if so do we have any knowledge of other spells of 11th or 12th level? Also I just thought of something else. What is Elven High magic? Is this basically just epic level spells or something different. Also I thought I read that High magic was somehow lost. If so how did this happen and why? Thanks for induldging me if these are dumb questions. Still a bit new to really getting into FR and I gotta play catch-up a bit. -Aza
lavekkia 07-08-07, 06:41 AM	First off please forgive my noobishness. I've lurked on these forums a bit but never really gotten into it much. Ok so from this topic it seems like 10th level spells are much more powerful then epic spellcasting? Now after that we have 10th level spells, but I'm wondering how much higher it goes. I could be completely wrong but I believe I have read that Larloch had promission from Mystra to research up to 11th level spells and that Karsus' Avatar was a 12th level? First off is this true and secondly if so do we have any knowledge of other spells of 11th or 12th level? All 10th, 11th, 12th lvl spells are in Netheril: Empire Of Magic and there s some more in one of the Myth Drannor books. Also I just thought of something else. What is Elven High magic? Is this basically just epic level spells or something different. Also I thought I read that High magic was somehow lost. If so how did this happen and why? In current edition Elven High Magic is epic Magic cast by an Elven High Mage (a PrC from Races Of Faerun, reworked various times because it was a very ugly thing); things were different in 2e Thanks for induldging me if these are dumb questions. Still a bit new to really getting into FR and I gotta play catch-up a bit. -Aza
captaincarot 07-08-07, 06:57 AM	Thanks for induldging me if these are dumb questions. Still a bit new to really getting into FR and I gotta play catch-up a bit. -Aza i fail to see how a question can be dumb if you don't know the answer to it. it would be dumb not to ask the question. the path to enlightenment is paved with questions.
Red_Wizard 07-08-07, 08:57 AM	The major difference that people have yet to mention, is where epic tries to immitate true 10th + magic, it instead draws heavily upon the caster as opposed to the weaves source. So effectivly, the weave is useing close to the same power of a 9th level spell, when mitigating factors are implemented for the epic magic. The point being missed however, is that true 10th + magic drew upon Mystryl herself. It tapped magic at it's at it's core, and thus the power level of the spells was achievable. With each subsequent goddess of magic, magic in turn becomes weaker.
Azameth22 07-08-07, 12:43 PM	i fail to see how a question can be dumb if you don't know the answer to it. it would be dumb not to ask the question. the path to enlightenment is paved with questions. Thanks man. People seem pretty nice here compared to most game forums where you get the OMG u SuXorz N00b. response if you ask something that is supposedly common knowledge hehe. One other question I just thought of that is a little off topic but I think is related. We see all of these archmages that are thousands of years old. Now is this just because at some point they get so powerful that time stops effecting them, and if this is the case about what level does this happen. Or is it solely because of some sort of spell or ritual such as becoming a lich or another source.
captaincarot 07-08-07, 12:57 PM	Thanks man. People seem pretty nice here compared to most game forums where you get the OMG u SuXorz N00b. response if you ask something that is supposedly common knowledge hehe.. no worries mate One other question I just thought of that is a little off topic but I think is related. We see all of these archmages that are thousands of years old. Now is this just because at some point they get so powerful that time stops effecting them, and if this is the case about what level does this happen. Or is it solely because of some sort of spell or ritual such as becoming a lich or another source. there seem to be quite a few ways,being a chosen of some deity tends to make you not die of old age. being a lich also does the trick. There are evil ways of stealing peoples life force to prolong your own. but then there's people like halaster which i aint got a clue how they managed to survive for so long.
Faraer 07-08-07, 01:34 PM	Very few mages who are thousands of years old. Hundreds is more likely, and magical longevity is achieved through an array of methods -- to quote Volo's Guide to All Things Magical (a free download (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads)), . . . what I might call the personal, paranoid uses of magic: to defend yourself, to keep yourself healthy, and, ultimately, to cheat death. Some mages may snort at that conclusion -- but I answer: Why then all the use of elixirs? Potions of longevity? The various expensive, difficult, and often unpleasant processes for achieving lichdom? The other, sometimes desperate strivings for immortality such as taking the shapes of dragons? Or sharn? Or serving a god, as the Chosen of Mystra do?Potions of longevity are the most common -- they're frequently used by wealthy people of all kinds.
MarkusTay63 07-08-07, 01:49 PM	Epic magic to me is one of the few things that need changing if a 4.0 ever comes around. You have 9th level magic, and you used to have powerful 10th level magic, but Epic is something 'in-between'? :confused: What is it, level 9½?! It reminds me of the terrible strength system from 1e/2e. You had 18 Str (human max), and you had 19 Str for non-humans, but then you had 'super-strength that had a 1-100 range BETWEEN 18 and 19! That was one thing I really hated about older editions, and 'Epic Spells' remind me of that. So I guess 'High Magic' is 9¾? I used to own a 3rd party supplement that brought the magic level all the way to 15! It was pretty unuseable IG, but it was a fun read none the less. I think level 14 had a spell Create World..... :schemes:
dragonheart 07-08-07, 03:20 PM	ok bunch of commnets from the peanut gallery :D 1. true 10th level spells - can be found in the 2e netheril and myth drannor materials as mentioned. However to use them you need to be playing in those campaigns - in modern (ie post netheril) 3.x games true 10th level spells do not work - period! 2. > 9th level spell slots - as an epic level caster(level 20+) it is possible to take a feat to allow you to access 10th qnd higher level spell slots - but only to place metamagiced 9th level- spells in. 3. Epic magic - the 3.x version of 2e's true Dweomors and Elven high magic. In the modern game this is the only way to caste spells with greater than 9th level power. 4. Elven High magic - in 2e this was a way for elves to caster a variety of higher level spells. By the rules then elves were limited in how ligh a level they could progress as casters (12-15 L based on intelligence). High magic was a strictly NPC way to provide/explain all the greater than 6-7yh level spells cast by elves for story or background purposes. Further it was broken into 3 levels: spells of solitude - castable by a single elven high mage (mostly the equivalent of 8th & 9th Level spells; spells of a circle of 3 high mages (mostly 10th level spells; spells from a circle of 9+ elven mages & High mages - basically 11th and higher level spells including mythals. In 3.x theis system has been discarded and they are simply epic spells cast by elves - especially elves of the Elven High Mage PrC. generally I would guess that most folks do something like the following to maintain the flavour - use lots of donated spell levels from other mages as mitigating factors to power elven high mage epic spells. SOme of us have gone so far as two try to rebuild game specific version of the PrC to merge the new spell casting format wiht the older "fluff" text. 5. ancient mages still around - remember that some of these were first created in 2e when there was a lot of life extension magic around. Since 3.0 I've yet to see any reformulation of these spells and items but these ancient mages may still beusing "ancient" tricks learned long ago and now lost :rolleyes: Might make for an interesting campaign to try to find one of these folk and do something significant enough for them that they teach you the trick of making/casting such magic. Also certain classes and PrCs can effectively render you deathless or potentially so.
Karsus the Mad 07-08-07, 05:08 PM	You have 9th level magic, and you used to have powerful 10th level magic, but Epic is something 'in-between'? What is it, level 9½?! No. Epic is not new. In previous editions it was known as true dweomers. Epic Magic is little more than a 3.0 update to 2e True Dweomers.
lavekkia 07-08-07, 06:05 PM	Indeed. And 10th lvl magic (As in Netheril: Empire Of Magic) is a FR Only phenomenon localized in time, space and race (and more importantly: localized to a bunch of sourcebooks). True dweomers and now Epic Magic were/are the norm in multiple spheres and planes.
Karsus the Mad 07-08-07, 07:10 PM	Indeed. And 10th lvl magic (As in Netheril: Empire Of Magic) is a FR Only phenomenon localized in time, space and race (and more importantly: localized to a bunch of sourcebooks). True dweomers and now Epic Magic were/are the norm in multiple spheres and planes. Precisely.
Micheal_Roele 07-10-07, 05:02 PM	Indeed. And 10th lvl magic (As in Netheril: Empire Of Magic) is a FR Only phenomenon localized in time, space and race (and more importantly: localized to a bunch of sourcebooks). True dweomers and now Epic Magic were/are the norm in multiple spheres and planes. Netheril: Empire Of Magic was not the first or only material to use 10th Level Spells. Dark Sun, Dragon Kings, published 1992 had actual 10th Level Spells. Netheril: Empire Of Magic was published four years later in 1996. This was the first setting I believe to use 11th and 12th level slots.
MarkusTay63 07-10-07, 05:33 PM	Okay, so what you are saying is that True Dweomers are level 9½?! If 10th is higher, then that must be so. Calling it a different name DOES NOT change the way it fits into the rules, which is badly. I like to think that Mystra was just one of the last hold-outs to deny the use of magic above 9th level to mortals. I'm sure there are a few spheres somewhere that don't have the restrictions in place as well. I also remember reading about 10th level spells way before Netheril came out, and I believe I remember one in particular. Tidal Wave from something I read. Raw Magic (Mana) cab handle any 'level' of magic, and is only limited by the constitution of the caster, hence why only gods go around raising mountains and sinking continents (and Elves ;) ). Normally it takes some form of circle magic for mortals to handle the powere levels involved (ie, High magic, etc). Tthe Weave is just an interface, Mystra herself in fact, that simplifies the magic-wielding and the exertion needed to produce effects. By memorizing a strict set of formulae and imbedding the 'spell matrixes' in your mind ahead of time, the weave allows mages to produce said effects easier. Mystra is the Weave, and therefore IS the set of rules mages MUST folow. So if she says "no 10th+ magic spells, thats just the way it is... in Realmspace. There are other ways of performing magic that does NOT tap into the weave. However, that type of 'Raw casting' is beyond the scope of most rules, because it depends directly on the character's inner strength and willpower, not some abstract set of spell levels.
lavekkia 07-10-07, 07:13 PM	Okay, so what you are saying is that True Dweomers are level 9½?! If 10th is higher, then that must be so. Calling it a different name DOES NOT change the way it fits into the rules, which is badly. I like to think that Mystra was just one of the last hold-outs to deny the use of magic above 9th level to mortals. I'm sure there are a few spheres somewhere that don't have the restrictions in place as well. I also remember reading about 10th level spells way before Netheril came out, and I believe I remember one in particular. Tidal Wave from something I read. Raw Magic (Mana) cab handle any 'level' of magic, and is only limited by the constitution of the caster, hence why only gods go around raising mountains and sinking continents (and Elves ;) ). Normally it takes some form of circle magic for mortals to handle the powere levels involved (ie, High magic, etc). Tthe Weave is just an interface, Mystra herself in fact, that simplifies the magic-wielding and the exertion needed to produce effects. By memorizing a strict set of formulae and imbedding the 'spell matrixes' in your mind ahead of time, the weave allows mages to produce said effects easier. Mystra is the Weave, and therefore IS the set of rules mages MUST folow. So if she says "no 10th+ magic spells, thats just the way it is... in Realmspace. There are other ways of performing magic that does NOT tap into the weave. However, that type of 'Raw casting' is beyond the scope of most rules, because it depends directly on the character's inner strength and willpower, not some abstract set of spell levels. No True Dweomers used a different ruleset similar in many ways to Epic Magic (from which it comes). So True Dweomers and Epic Magic are not 10 or 11 or 12 or whatever you want level; they were and are what they are: True Dweomers and Epic Magic. The comparison with 10th lvl magic comes from a badly written introduction by Skip Williams in DM Options sourcebook (for True Dweomers)and from the dispelling rules in the ELH (for Epic Magic). How does Netherese magic fit in alll this ? simply put it doesn t: it s another method of performing magic peculiar to Realmspce that does not exist anymore. Comparison between the two is useless since they are very different from lore and mechanics standpoint.
MarkusTay63 07-11-07, 02:36 AM	Then it's level zero, right? ;) It has to have a level, otherwise it can't be quantified, and if it can't be quantified, then you can't write rules for it, and if you can't write rules for it, then it has no place in D&D. Pick a level, any level.... So I figure its level 10 magic, and then just add an extra lev to each level of Netherese spells after 9th. I guessed they skipped right over level 10 and cranked it up to Eleven. :D In which case Karsus's Avatar was actually a 13th level spell - no wonder it was so unlucky. :rolleyes:
dragonheart 07-11-07, 08:17 AM	Then it's level zero, right? ;) It has to have a level, otherwise it can't be quantified, and if it can't be quantified, then you can't write rules for it, and if you can't write rules for it, then it has no place in D&D. Pick a level, any level.... So I figure its level 10 magic, and then just add an extra lev to each level of Netherese spells after 9th. I guessed they skipped right over level 10 and cranked it up to Eleven. :D In which case Karsus's Avatar was actually a 13th level spell - no wonder it was so unlucky. :rolleyes: NO NO NO :D The system of higher level spells experimented with in Netheril and now barred in Faerun (and most campaigns) continued to rank spells with levels with the highest level recorded beiing the single 12th level spell - KArsus Avatar. THis was a 2e experiment with The Dark Sun and Netheril campaigns (and some related planescape material to fit them into the larger D&D universe). The experiment has been abandoned with the introduction of 3.x D&D but the levels are potentially useful for comparing relative power of spells in other systems. Elven High Magic (2e version): because elven PC were limited to 12-15th level as mages they were unable to ever access the highest level spells. In FR especially this was a problem since they were supposed ot have been great magical creators. This was overcome with the concept of Elven High Magic - a strictly (originally) NPC magical system that provided the elves with the capacity to create spells of 8+ level. it was basically split into 3 levels: 1. single caster spells - these mostly mimiced 8th and 9th level normal spells. 2. Small group spells - requiring a group of 3 high mages these mostly mimiced or matched in power Netherese spells of 10th and 11th level power. 3. LArge group spells - requiring a group of at least 9 spellcasters led by elven high mages - these drew on all the casters and so could match or exceed the power of netherese 12th level spells. Epic Spells/True Dweomers are a completely levelless system of casting spells of power greater than level 9. The system allows you to cast spells of any power but greater the power the harder the spell and the more power you have to put into the spell. THis makes it difficult for single individuals without special resources (chosen, templates, etc) to cast spells of great power. I believe (but am not sure of the history) that these systems developed from the concepts behind Elven High Magic and were initially basically a set of rules detailing an expanded way for anyone to use the ideas behind elven high Magic in their campaigns. True Dweomers were a 2e alternative system to Netherese type level casting of spells of power greater than level 9. With the coming of 3.x the decision was made to leave the Netherese system in 2e and only update the True Dweomer system as a more balanced system and so it was rewritetn as Epic Magic. Unfortuantely along the way they forgot about its origins and simply dumped Elven High Magic into it as a single example of its use - without looking at the flavour text and accumulated lore. SOmething they still haven't done effectively with their official PrC for the Elven High Mage. Epic magic can be quantified but its methods are not via level. The spell's difficulty is determined and then ameliorating factors are added to try to bring it down to where the individual or group can caste it fairly easily. So any spell of greater than 9th level can be duplicated in epic magic but the costs may be higher than a particular caster can pay.
Zsych 07-14-07, 02:17 AM	Nothing says that 10+ magic drew on Mystryl, more than any other magic(since they all draw on/use Mystryl/Mystra) As for epic magic... Considering that it can work inside a dead magic zone(a place where the Weave doesn't exist), I suppose its possible that it uses very little of the Weave at all. Maybe at a much lesser level than a 9th level spell.
Red_Wizard 07-15-07, 10:09 AM	Nothing says that 10+ magic drew on Mystryl, more than any other magic(since they all draw on/use Mystryl/Mystra) Well actually the write up for Mystryl in "The Winds of Netheril" from the Netheril Box Set, states that "She couldn't be affected by less than the most powerful magics-- Which reached beyond the weave to attempt to draw upon her very nature, the stuff of magic itself-- unless she desired it to be" This would suggest that 10th + magic, being the most powerful of magics, did in fact draw upon her, rather than on the weave itself.
Karsus the Mad 07-15-07, 12:07 PM	Well actually the write up for Mystryl in "The Winds of Netheril" from the Netheril Box Set, states that "She couldn't be affected by less than the most powerful magics-- Which reached beyond the weave to attempt to draw upon her very nature, the stuff of magic itself-- unless she desired it to be" This would suggest that 10th + magic, being the most powerful of magics, did in fact draw upon her, rather than on the weave itself. I always took that as an indirect way of explaining how Karsus's Avatar worked. But it's kinda weird, since her very nature is actually the Weave itself. Meh :)
Red_Wizard 07-15-07, 12:36 PM	Seeing it as being solely 12th level magic is possible, and something I had considered myself at first, though there seems little reason to state what can affect her in the entry if such was the case. This ofcourse being due to there only being one 12th level spell ever created, and it was that one that equated to magic failing and Netherils downfall. Also, if it was only 12th level spells, why then ban 10th and 11th? Seems more likely that all three drew upon her to a varying degree, and to avoid any similar accidents, she did away with all three ;)
Zsych 07-16-07, 03:29 AM	Well, the description of 12th level magic, states that it was a wholly new level of magic, and Karsus thought that he had finally reached the kind of magic that the gods themselves used. So I assume it was something really special, so 12th level magic is indeed what I think of from that passage. -- As for 10+ in general. ... I think that creating something awesome and god-effecting would have been easier at that level than at the 9th level for example. Basic 10th level spells like the spell to cut up a mountain and make it fly, is no minor spell even from epic magic standards. A serious 11th spell attack spell, might well tear a divine avatar at least, to pieces with one hit. ... Actually I seem to recall something being said about, the max 9th level spell(Wish), being able to manipulate anything within the realm of imagination(sorta), but that at the 10th level of magic, even stuff that was beyond normal imagining(whatever that means), started becoming possible. ... Gotta wonder what an 11th or 12th level equivalent of Wish could've done. ("I wish for Shar to cease to exist", "I wish for all the worship that goes to the gods(something I don't really understand myself) to instead be directed towards me!")... who can say.
Eli_the_Tanner 07-31-07, 09:09 PM	NO NO NO :D The system of higher level spells experimented with in Netheril and now barred in Faerun (and most campaigns) continued to rank spells with levels with the highest level recorded beiing the single 12th level spell - KArsus Avatar. THis was a 2e experiment with The Dark Sun and Netheril campaigns (and some related planescape material to fit them into the larger D&D universe). The experiment has been abandoned with the introduction of 3.x D&D but the levels are potentially useful for comparing relative power of spells in other systems. Elven High Magic (2e version): because elven PC were limited to 12-15th level as mages they were unable to ever access the highest level spells. In FR especially this was a problem since they were supposed ot have been great magical creators. This was overcome with the concept of Elven High Magic - a strictly (originally) NPC magical system that provided the elves with the capacity to create spells of 8+ level. it was basically split into 3 levels: 1. single caster spells - these mostly mimiced 8th and 9th level normal spells. 2. Small group spells - requiring a group of 3 high mages these mostly mimiced or matched in power Netherese spells of 10th and 11th level power. 3. LArge group spells - requiring a group of at least 9 spellcasters led by elven high mages - these drew on all the casters and so could match or exceed the power of netherese 12th level spells. Epic Spells/True Dweomers are a completely levelless system of casting spells of power greater than level 9. The system allows you to cast spells of any power but greater the power the harder the spell and the more power you have to put into the spell. THis makes it difficult for single individuals without special resources (chosen, templates, etc) to cast spells of great power. I believe (but am not sure of the history) that these systems developed from the concepts behind Elven High Magic and were initially basically a set of rules detailing an expanded way for anyone to use the ideas behind elven high Magic in their campaigns. True Dweomers were a 2e alternative system to Netherese type level casting of spells of power greater than level 9. With the coming of 3.x the decision was made to leave the Netherese system in 2e and only update the True Dweomer system as a more balanced system and so it was rewritetn as Epic Magic. Unfortuantely along the way they forgot about its origins and simply dumped Elven High Magic into it as a single example of its use - without looking at the flavour text and accumulated lore. SOmething they still haven't done effectively with their official PrC for the Elven High Mage. Epic magic can be quantified but its methods are not via level. The spell's difficulty is determined and then ameliorating factors are added to try to bring it down to where the individual or group can caste it fairly easily. So any spell of greater than 9th level can be duplicated in epic magic but the costs may be higher than a particular caster can pay. I think that is the most complete and helpful explanation of how higher-level magic works I have ever seen in one post.:teach:
Karsus the Mad 07-31-07, 09:25 PM	Seeing it as being solely 12th level magic is possible, and something I had considered myself at first, though there seems little reason to state what can affect her in the entry if such was the case. This ofcourse being due to there only being one 12th level spell ever created, and it was that one that equated to magic failing and Netherils downfall. Also, if it was only 12th level spells, why then ban 10th and 11th? Seems more likely that all three drew upon her to a varying degree, and to avoid any similar accidents, she did away with all three ;) Possibly. I find it funny tho' that she was able to ban 10th+ magic via the Weave, but still resorted to snatching Karsus's notes on his avatar spell and sending them on an eternal journey to the ends of the universe. This hints that 10th and 11th level spells were drawn from the Weave (thus within her divine right to deny), but that 12th level magic was somehow different, and possibly not entirely within her sphere of power. Pure speculation of course :)
Alleran 08-01-07, 01:58 AM	but still resorted to snatching Karsus's notes on his avatar spell and sending them on an eternal journey to the ends of the universe. It was probably to ensure that nobody tried to put together an Epic spell capable of doing the same job, not to mention the risk that the spell posed to any god - not just her.
Karsus the Mad 08-01-07, 03:18 AM	It was probably to ensure that nobody tried to put together an Epic spell capable of doing the same job, not to mention the risk that the spell posed to any god - not just her. That passage was written during 2e, before Epic spells existed. Even tho', Epic Magic works via the Weave, so her authority over it is pretty much assured. She could easily simply not allow such an epic spell to be created in the first place. Then again, one prolly shouldn't read too much into NEoM, as shoddy as it is.
Alleran 08-01-07, 11:06 AM	That passage was written during 2e, before Epic spells existed. IIRC, True Dweomers did, though, though I'm blanking on what they actually did. Long day at work, so I'm all fuzzy and in need of sleep. :(
Red_Wizard 08-01-07, 11:39 AM	Possibly. I find it funny tho' that she was able to ban 10th+ magic via the Weave, but still resorted to snatching Karsus's notes on his avatar spell and sending them on an eternal journey to the ends of the universe. This hints that 10th and 11th level spells were drawn from the Weave (thus within her divine right to deny), but that 12th level magic was somehow different, and possibly not entirely within her sphere of power. Pure speculation of course :) All three were within her divine right to deny as the proof she did so is clear for all to see. Had 12th been truly beyond her power to control, it would thus have been beyond the scope of a mortal wizard to fathom, as one cannot practice that which does not exist. This is assuming Mystra is truly the weave, and as the weave should be able to support and deny anything drawing upon it or her. As to her actions with Karsus' notes regarding the spell itself, it remains entirely possible that, that sole spell represented the pinnacle of all craft to be achieved and thus she could not in good concience be the perpetrator of its destruction. That which many a powerful mortal being has sought after, or young novice dreampt of, was suddenly created via a single spell so ingenious in and by itself that she could no more destroy it, than we could the Pyramids, Mona Lisa, or the Sistine chapel. It was a brilliant culmination of a single mans life work, both magically and physically yet to powerful to be allowed to remain where it might harm her again. There are many ways one could possibly recreate it even with her banning of true 10th plus spells-- specifically epic spells as noted above--, thus avoiding both risk of re-occurrence, and preserving Karsus' greatest revelation and folly she cast it to the ends of the universe, to be lost to the realms, but retrievable should an be adventurous enough to do so.
Karsus the Mad 08-01-07, 12:32 PM	IIRC, True Dweomers did, though, though I'm blanking on what they actually did. Long day at work, so I'm all fuzzy and in need of sleep. :( Yep. TD were published in 95, NEoM in 96. You've read DMGHLC? All three were within her divine right to deny as the proof she did so is clear for all to see. Had 12th been truly beyond her power to control, it would thus have been beyond the scope of a mortal wizard to fathom, as one cannot practice that which does not exist. This is assuming Mystra is truly the weave, and as the weave should be able to support and deny anything drawing upon it or her. As to her actions with Karsus' notes regarding the spell itself, it remains entirely possible that, that sole spell represented the pinnacle of all craft to be achieved and thus she could not in good concience be the perpetrator of its destruction. That which many a powerful mortal being has sought after, or young novice dreampt of, was suddenly created via a single spell so ingenious in and by itself that she could no more destroy it, than we could the Pyramids, Mona Lisa, or the Sistine chapel. It was a brilliant culmination of a single mans life work, both magically and physically yet to powerful to be allowed to remain where it might harm her again. There are many ways one could possibly recreate it even with her banning of true 10th plus spells-- specifically epic spells as noted above--, thus avoiding both risk of re-occurrence, and preserving Karsus' greatest revelation and folly she cast it to the ends of the universe, to be lost to the realms, but retrievable should an be adventurous enough to do so. Uhhhh.....RW, ya know I like ya and think you're a pretty cool bloke, but you're kinda creeping me out there, getting all philosophical. Even *I* don't hold Karsus in such high esteem, which should really tell you a lot (considering I've devoted my FR fandom to him....sad I know...) ;) deny as the proof she did so is clear for all to see. It obviously is not. Had 12th been truly beyond her power to control, it would thus have been beyond the scope of a mortal wizard to fathom, Well, we know, as a fact, that she was not aware of it, nor did she have any contingencies for it, and that she sacrificed herself without knowing the Weave would continue, all from Ed. I do indeed believe such a spell was completely and utterly beyond her scope of comprehension and ability to control, all the while being within the comprehension of the mortal that designed and cast the spell itself. If you can provide any instance that actually suggests she had even a peasantry sense of such a thing, I'd like to know. According to published sources, and details described by Ed himself, Karsus most certainly got the blind side of her. So yes, I feel more than confident to say that 12th level magic was beyond her power to control, given the facts we know. It is all speculation, obviously, but I've yet to hear an argument that suggested otherwise:) Please do provide one, I highly desire it myself.
Red_Wizard 08-01-07, 08:52 PM	According to published sources, and details described by Ed himself, Karsus most certainly got the blind side of her. So yes, I feel more than confident to say that 12th level magic was beyond her power to control, given the facts we know. It is all speculation, obviously, but I've yet to hear an argument that suggested otherwise:) Please do provide one, I highly desire it myself. For me this seems like the simplest of questions to explain away given what we know of the current incarnation of the lady of mysteries. Now assuming one takes Mystras current statted ability allowing her to know in advance the creation of all spells within her network of influence, one can then surmise that Mystryl also may have possesed a similar trait. Thus we can then postulate that she did infact know of the spells creation, and was blindsided by some other aspect of the process. What then was the cause of said mishap? The spell was generic in its base form-- as are many spells accross the board-- in that the specification of it's parametres were broad in regard to the base target. Omitting the spells overlying purpose of usurping a divine position , the divine being to be assailed was not mentioned prior too casting. Thus I put forth the suggestion, backed up by the wording-- or lack there of-- of Mystras divine ability to sense spell creation, that she can not at any time see the target of said spell nor know how the caster intends to use his creation. Also i'll note that Mystryl had to have been aware of the ability to create such powerful magic as the Arcanist class gives access to 12th level spells, and one cannot grant something they don't think/ know is within their power to create. My conclusion is the original Mystryl suffered from the same arrogance the High arcanists did, and saw little threat to be had from the creation of such a spell. She most likely saw little reason to assume he would be foolish enough to attempt it upon her, and perhaps even thought he may fail miserably as the esences of all divine beings are not hers to command, thus the creation of a spell to do so seemed destined to fail. Thus she was aware of said spell, yet blindsided as lore details for us, by the surprise of its use upon her of all beings. Just my musings on the matter. ;)