Looking for honest criticism of a campaign seed [Archive] - Wizards Community

Looking for honest criticism of a campaign seed [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rmccowen
04-21-07, 04:52 PM I recently bought Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave on impulse, and was thoroughly underwhelmed. The sidebar on page 51 about the Dusk Lord of Sessrendale intrigued me, though, and I started reading more about Sessrendale. The FRCS sidebar addressing the fall of Sessrendale is close to the description of the Darkwatch, in Deepingdale, so I decided to bring the Dusk Lord and Moander together. Here's what I came up with.

The Dusk Lord was secretly an adherent to Shar, and the dark magic that finally drove Archendale to arms was an attempt to bring the Shadow Plane into coexistence with the Material. He escaped the eventual destruction of his kingdom, and eventually underwent transformation into a lich. (I'm using Tome of Magic; he's now a human lich Cleric 3 (Shar)/Shadowcaster 3/Mystic Theurge 10.)

After decades of research and experimentation, the Dusk Lord believes he has discovered a way to destroy Mystra, resurrect an ancient foe of Selune, and gain a powerful ally for Shar all in the same blow.

He plans to locate and trap a powerful mortal descendant of Karsus (again, from Tome of Magic, Karsites are mortal humans bearing a touch of Karsus' bloodline). Using this mortal as a conduit, he will gather and bind the remaining vestiges of Karsus' spirit. Then, using an artifact consecrated to Moander, the Dusk Lord will sacrifice the Karsite at the heart of the Darkwatch; Moander, awaiting only a spark of divinity, will be brought back to existence--and because of the connection to Karsus, he will be the final inheritor of the ritual that destroyed Mystryl and the empire of Netheril.

Moander will be returned with dominion over all magic, owing a powerful debt to Shar. Mystra will be significantly weakened or destroyed, and Selune will no longer be able to count on the essential neutrality of magic as a counterbalance to Shar's power. Of course, the PCs have to stop the plot.

My questions, particularly for those DMs who are better acquainted with Realmslore than I am, are: What seems cool about this to you? Are there any gaping problems with this plotline? What would you do differently?

Thanks in advance!
Faraer
04-21-07, 07:17 PM The basic structure is fine, but...

I see how this could return Moander, but not how it would get Moander dominion over magic.

Plots this big, to destroy gods and reorder the fabric of Toril, are once-a-century happenings, and I would either tone down the scale or deal with the likelihood that unless perfect secrecy is kept, something like this is likely to bring interested parties from hundreds of miles around (plus the Malaugrym), cause massive magical destruction if even slightly successful, and possibly catalyze wars.

I would use a newly conceived lich rather than the Dusk Lord (who wasn't evil and whose real story (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5812&whichpage=83) is, I think, much more interesting).
PharaunMizzrym
04-21-07, 09:02 PM Nice campaign seed, except why would Moander pay his debt to Shar? He's Moander, god of corruption. If anything he would attempt to destroy all of existence if he had dominion over magic.
rmccowen
04-22-07, 12:11 AM I see how this could return Moander, but not how it would get Moander dominion over magic.

I wasn't particularly clear in my OP, but the resulting being would be a fusion of Karsus and Moander. The ritual would complete the spell that originally tore the Weave from Mystryl's control, granting it to the being that now embodies Karsus.

Plots this big, to destroy gods and reorder the fabric of Toril, are once-a-century happenings, and I would either tone down the scale or deal with the likelihood that unless perfect secrecy is kept, something like this is likely to bring interested parties from hundreds of miles around (plus the Malaugrym), cause massive magical destruction if even slightly successful, and possibly catalyze wars.

I enjoy running campaigns of epic scope--in fact, it's one of the things I like about the Realms--but I do take your point. I plan for the PCs to discover the details of the lich's plan, and derail it by acquiring and destroying the artifact he needs to complete the ritual. Then, of course, they'll need to destroy him, since he has an effectively infinite amount of time to figure out another way to bring his plot to fruition.

Why the maulagrym, in particular? Are they connected with Moander somehow, or just generally interested in anything involving Shadow and magic?

I would use a newly conceived lich rather than the Dusk Lord (who wasn't evil and whose real story (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5812&whichpage=83) is, I think, much more interesting).

Well... that is pretty interesting. I'd still like to use a villain that ties closely into the history of the Realms, and particularly the western half of the Sea of Falling Stars; do you have any other suggestions that might better meet my needs?
Meldread
04-22-07, 12:45 AM rmccowen-

I like your idea, and I would encourage you to remember that just because the lore states one thing doesn't mean you can't change things around to make them suit your needs. It's your Realms.

However, a few things that might be of interest to you. The heart of Karsus is currently within the hands of Shar, if I remember correctly. You could play this out as Shar having a forceful control of the newly arisen deity, to the point of that deity being almost a slave.

Second, the spell cast by Karsus was completed. That is why Mystryl had to sacrifice herself, because Karsus temporarily wrestled control of the Weave from him. However, that doesn't mean the divine essence of Karsus still does not contain some connection to the Weave (in all likelihood - it does), and therefore finding a way to resurrect him might pose some interesting possibilities.

A few notes, however.

First, how you will fit the Shadow Weave into this plot. If Shar has any say or any control over what is happening, this will be a factor indirectly or directly. Second, I would encourage you to remember that the Weave is considered the physical embodiment of Mystra. What do you think will happen if Karsus is resurrected and that divine essence, essentially, being used to in turn resurrect Moander? I would imagine that the end result being a Moander/Karsus merge - but I don't imagine it outright destroying Mystra right away... however at the same time I would imagine they would somehow be "corrupting" or fusing with the Weave. In effect fighting control of the Weave away from Mystra, who - if she loses - is destroyed.

Perhaps an end result of a fusion of three different beings? Mystra, Karsus and Moander?

I would encourage you to think about how it will all play out in the event that your players fail to prevent this from taking place. Think about possible "bottle necks" for the the plot to give them time to regroup and try again, and consider outcomes that may be only half-successes or half-failures. What will be the end result on Toril? What will happen to all of Mystra's many, many Chosen?

Oh, and PharaunMizzrym-

Nice campaign seed, except why would Moander pay his debt to Shar? He's Moander, god of corruption. If anything he would attempt to destroy all of existence if he had dominion over magic.

I'd think that'd be perfectly in line with the goals of Shar. :P

P.S. Rmccowen if your villain -is- successful then I would consider you thinking about turning Weave magic in Faerun into something along the lines of Defiling Magic in the Dark Sun Campaign World of Athas. I'm not COMPLETELY sure how it worked, however I believe that would be the end result of a Moander/Karsus deity that controls the Weave.
MarkusTay63
04-22-07, 01:36 AM I wasn't particularly clear in my OP, but the resulting being would be a fusion of Karsus and Moander. The ritual would complete the spell that originally tore the Weave from Mystryl's control, granting it to the being that now embodies Karsus.Karmoandersus - the god of magic and smelly rubbish heaps? ;)

Well... that is pretty interesting. I'd still like to use a villain that ties closely into the history of the Realms, and particularly the western half of the Sea of Falling Stars; do you have any other suggestions that might better meet my needs?Considering the closeness of Cormyr, not to mention Elminster, there are not a lot of big-time evils present in this region. You will have to either go further north, to the Zhents (very cliche' these days), or find someone you like down on the Dragon Coast (I believe there are quite a few to choose from, including a vampire Manshoon clone (more Zhents!).

Probably your best bet would be just to make up some uber-nasty Drow mage, given the increased presence of the surface Drow in recent years. It would be fairly easy to find a bunch of disgruntled dark Elves worshipping Shar or some other evil deity within the massive confines of Cormanthor. But then again, Drow are getting cliche' too... :rolleyes:

How about this - the Dusk Lord was ORIGINALLY a good guy, but after a century of being an evil ghost-thing (wraith?) he has given in to temptation and and took a deal from Shar. She would give him a new body, if he swore eternal loyalty to her, and would help her in her evil machinations (in other words, to bring back Moander). He was duped, however, and the 'new' body she gave him was a dried-out withered old husk (maybe even his original?). Either way he feels cheated, because he thought he would live again, but instead he is now some sort of psuedo-lich (open for anything you want to create). Although he hates her for this, he is still sworn to serve her (the whole 'contract signed in blood thing... except he doesn't have any blood.. :confused: )

Anyhow, there's your backstory, and it still works with the history Ed was nice to provide over at candlekeep. Always best to bend canon, not break it. ;)
Faraer
04-22-07, 01:02 PM Why the maulagrym, in particular?The Malaugrym live in the Shadow Plane.Well... that is pretty interesting. I'd still like to use a villain that ties closely into the history of the Realms, and particularly the western half of the Sea of Falling Stars; do you have any other suggestions that might better meet my needs?Alokkair, under Fox Ridge in Shadowdale? He's linked to Netheril.
PharaunMizzrym
04-22-07, 02:14 PM I think Shar would want to be the one to end everything, and not let another deity be the last thing to exist. I do like the idea that Shar cotols him through the heart of Karsus, that would work. As for evil villians, maybe an archmage from the imaskar underground city. The shades would work even better.
MarkusTay63
04-22-07, 03:21 PM The Malaugrym live in the Shadow Plane.Alokkair, under Fox Ridge in Shadowdale? He's linked to Netheril.
Actually, it says in MoF that they use the Shadow Plane to travel to Faerūn, so they are mistakenly thought to come from there.
rmccowen
04-22-07, 03:59 PM Revised!

Before his death, the Dusk Lord created a clone, hidden in a cavern deep beneath the Thunder Peaks--hoping that, even if he fell, he would be able to continue defending the kingdom. When he was finally killed by the forces of Archendale, his soul was transferred to the clone--but the necromantic energies he was employing caused an error. His consciousness was split: part resided in the clone, and part became the insubstantial undead that still haunts the ruins of Sessrendale. Both became entirely mad.

Passing into old age, the Dusk Lord's clone began to research magical ways of extending his lifespan. It was then that Shar manifested to him, promising immortality in return for his undying service.

Now, more than a century later, he believes he is in the process of discharging his debt. He plans to merge the almost-divine essence of Karsus with the almost-alive essence of Moander, creating a new god of corruption and magic. Shar's possession of the Heart of Karsus ensures that Karsus-Moander will be a subservient power--and, in case he escapes her control, she believes the Shadow Weave will be unaffected by the turmoil that will shortly affect the true Weave.

If the PCs fail to stop the plot, Karsus-Moander will awaken, and begin to corrupt Mystra's control over the Weave. The Dusk Lord believes that this will manifest as an immediate change in the physical vicinity of the Darkwatch, spreading within minutes to encompass most of the western end of the Sea of Fallen Stars. Although Mystra will attempt to push back, it's hard to fight the embodiment of Corruption, and the corrupted Weave will continue to (much more slowly) spread outward until it encompasses all of Toril.

More likely, the Chosen--who hold personal, untainted reservoirs of Mystra's power--will intervene long before the Weave is wholly corrupted, but even Shar is not certain how they might go about permanently cutting Karsus-Moander off from the Weave.

* * *

At low levels, the PCs will be focused on the connection to Karsus. Karsites, his magic-resistant mortal descendants, are going missing and falling sick all over Faerun. The missing ones appear to have been kidnapped, and are being exchanged for exorbitant bounties; the PCs trace this connection from the Thunder Peaks to agents in Sembia, and from there to a cult of "Moander" located in Westgate.

The Westgate cultists (led by a low-teens CR shadow dracolich) are delving into a hidden, ruined temple beneath the Hill of Fangs. They've gotten control of the upper levels, but the lower levels are still teeming with oozes and aberrations. This is the first bottleneck: the Sharran agents have come to a standstill, and aren't even sure where in the temple this artifact is supposed to be; the PCs have a chance to derail the plot here, if they move fast enough.

If they find the artifact, they have to destroy it (involving some sort of planar sidequest). Then they still have to destroy the Dusk Lord, who a) has all the time he wants to figure out an alternate plan, and b) is angry enough to bend all his resources toward capturing the PCs, torturing them, and casting their twisted, mewling souls beyond the known planes.

If they don't find the artifact in time, they have to pursue it back to Deepingdale, across the boundary of the Shadow Plane, and to the Dusk Lord's twisted temple at the heart of the Darkwatch, where they'll have to stop the ritual before it can be completed.
PharaunMizzrym
04-22-07, 04:57 PM Nice.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rmccowen 04-21-07, 04:52 PM	I recently bought Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave on impulse, and was thoroughly underwhelmed. The sidebar on page 51 about the Dusk Lord of Sessrendale intrigued me, though, and I started reading more about Sessrendale. The FRCS sidebar addressing the fall of Sessrendale is close to the description of the Darkwatch, in Deepingdale, so I decided to bring the Dusk Lord and Moander together. Here's what I came up with. The Dusk Lord was secretly an adherent to Shar, and the dark magic that finally drove Archendale to arms was an attempt to bring the Shadow Plane into coexistence with the Material. He escaped the eventual destruction of his kingdom, and eventually underwent transformation into a lich. (I'm using Tome of Magic; he's now a human lich Cleric 3 (Shar)/Shadowcaster 3/Mystic Theurge 10.) After decades of research and experimentation, the Dusk Lord believes he has discovered a way to destroy Mystra, resurrect an ancient foe of Selune, and gain a powerful ally for Shar all in the same blow. He plans to locate and trap a powerful mortal descendant of Karsus (again, from Tome of Magic, Karsites are mortal humans bearing a touch of Karsus' bloodline). Using this mortal as a conduit, he will gather and bind the remaining vestiges of Karsus' spirit. Then, using an artifact consecrated to Moander, the Dusk Lord will sacrifice the Karsite at the heart of the Darkwatch; Moander, awaiting only a spark of divinity, will be brought back to existence--and because of the connection to Karsus, he will be the final inheritor of the ritual that destroyed Mystryl and the empire of Netheril. Moander will be returned with dominion over all magic, owing a powerful debt to Shar. Mystra will be significantly weakened or destroyed, and Selune will no longer be able to count on the essential neutrality of magic as a counterbalance to Shar's power. Of course, the PCs have to stop the plot. My questions, particularly for those DMs who are better acquainted with Realmslore than I am, are: What seems cool about this to you? Are there any gaping problems with this plotline? What would you do differently? Thanks in advance!
Faraer 04-21-07, 07:17 PM	The basic structure is fine, but... I see how this could return Moander, but not how it would get Moander dominion over magic. Plots this big, to destroy gods and reorder the fabric of Toril, are once-a-century happenings, and I would either tone down the scale or deal with the likelihood that unless perfect secrecy is kept, something like this is likely to bring interested parties from hundreds of miles around (plus the Malaugrym), cause massive magical destruction if even slightly successful, and possibly catalyze wars. I would use a newly conceived lich rather than the Dusk Lord (who wasn't evil and whose real story (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5812&whichpage=83) is, I think, much more interesting).
PharaunMizzrym 04-21-07, 09:02 PM	Nice campaign seed, except why would Moander pay his debt to Shar? He's Moander, god of corruption. If anything he would attempt to destroy all of existence if he had dominion over magic.
rmccowen 04-22-07, 12:11 AM	I see how this could return Moander, but not how it would get Moander dominion over magic. I wasn't particularly clear in my OP, but the resulting being would be a fusion of Karsus and Moander. The ritual would complete the spell that originally tore the Weave from Mystryl's control, granting it to the being that now embodies Karsus. Plots this big, to destroy gods and reorder the fabric of Toril, are once-a-century happenings, and I would either tone down the scale or deal with the likelihood that unless perfect secrecy is kept, something like this is likely to bring interested parties from hundreds of miles around (plus the Malaugrym), cause massive magical destruction if even slightly successful, and possibly catalyze wars. I enjoy running campaigns of epic scope--in fact, it's one of the things I like about the Realms--but I do take your point. I plan for the PCs to discover the details of the lich's plan, and derail it by acquiring and destroying the artifact he needs to complete the ritual. Then, of course, they'll need to destroy him, since he has an effectively infinite amount of time to figure out another way to bring his plot to fruition. Why the maulagrym, in particular? Are they connected with Moander somehow, or just generally interested in anything involving Shadow and magic? I would use a newly conceived lich rather than the Dusk Lord (who wasn't evil and whose real story (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5812&whichpage=83) is, I think, much more interesting). Well... that is pretty interesting. I'd still like to use a villain that ties closely into the history of the Realms, and particularly the western half of the Sea of Falling Stars; do you have any other suggestions that might better meet my needs?
Meldread 04-22-07, 12:45 AM	rmccowen- I like your idea, and I would encourage you to remember that just because the lore states one thing doesn't mean you can't change things around to make them suit your needs. It's your Realms. However, a few things that might be of interest to you. The heart of Karsus is currently within the hands of Shar, if I remember correctly. You could play this out as Shar having a forceful control of the newly arisen deity, to the point of that deity being almost a slave. Second, the spell cast by Karsus was completed. That is why Mystryl had to sacrifice herself, because Karsus temporarily wrestled control of the Weave from him. However, that doesn't mean the divine essence of Karsus still does not contain some connection to the Weave (in all likelihood - it does), and therefore finding a way to resurrect him might pose some interesting possibilities. A few notes, however. First, how you will fit the Shadow Weave into this plot. If Shar has any say or any control over what is happening, this will be a factor indirectly or directly. Second, I would encourage you to remember that the Weave is considered the physical embodiment of Mystra. What do you think will happen if Karsus is resurrected and that divine essence, essentially, being used to in turn resurrect Moander? I would imagine that the end result being a Moander/Karsus merge - but I don't imagine it outright destroying Mystra right away... however at the same time I would imagine they would somehow be "corrupting" or fusing with the Weave. In effect fighting control of the Weave away from Mystra, who - if she loses - is destroyed. Perhaps an end result of a fusion of three different beings? Mystra, Karsus and Moander? I would encourage you to think about how it will all play out in the event that your players fail to prevent this from taking place. Think about possible "bottle necks" for the the plot to give them time to regroup and try again, and consider outcomes that may be only half-successes or half-failures. What will be the end result on Toril? What will happen to all of Mystra's many, many Chosen? Oh, and PharaunMizzrym- Nice campaign seed, except why would Moander pay his debt to Shar? He's Moander, god of corruption. If anything he would attempt to destroy all of existence if he had dominion over magic. I'd think that'd be perfectly in line with the goals of Shar. :P P.S. Rmccowen if your villain -is- successful then I would consider you thinking about turning Weave magic in Faerun into something along the lines of Defiling Magic in the Dark Sun Campaign World of Athas. I'm not COMPLETELY sure how it worked, however I believe that would be the end result of a Moander/Karsus deity that controls the Weave.
MarkusTay63 04-22-07, 01:36 AM	I wasn't particularly clear in my OP, but the resulting being would be a fusion of Karsus and Moander. The ritual would complete the spell that originally tore the Weave from Mystryl's control, granting it to the being that now embodies Karsus.Karmoandersus - the god of magic and smelly rubbish heaps? ;) Well... that is pretty interesting. I'd still like to use a villain that ties closely into the history of the Realms, and particularly the western half of the Sea of Falling Stars; do you have any other suggestions that might better meet my needs?Considering the closeness of Cormyr, not to mention Elminster, there are not a lot of big-time evils present in this region. You will have to either go further north, to the Zhents (very cliche' these days), or find someone you like down on the Dragon Coast (I believe there are quite a few to choose from, including a vampire Manshoon clone (more Zhents!). Probably your best bet would be just to make up some uber-nasty Drow mage, given the increased presence of the surface Drow in recent years. It would be fairly easy to find a bunch of disgruntled dark Elves worshipping Shar or some other evil deity within the massive confines of Cormanthor. But then again, Drow are getting cliche' too... :rolleyes: How about this - the Dusk Lord was ORIGINALLY a good guy, but after a century of being an evil ghost-thing (wraith?) he has given in to temptation and and took a deal from Shar. She would give him a new body, if he swore eternal loyalty to her, and would help her in her evil machinations (in other words, to bring back Moander). He was duped, however, and the 'new' body she gave him was a dried-out withered old husk (maybe even his original?). Either way he feels cheated, because he thought he would live again, but instead he is now some sort of psuedo-lich (open for anything you want to create). Although he hates her for this, he is still sworn to serve her (the whole 'contract signed in blood thing... except he doesn't have any blood.. :confused: ) Anyhow, there's your backstory, and it still works with the history Ed was nice to provide over at candlekeep. Always best to bend canon, not break it. ;)
Faraer 04-22-07, 01:02 PM	Why the maulagrym, in particular?The Malaugrym live in the Shadow Plane.Well... that is pretty interesting. I'd still like to use a villain that ties closely into the history of the Realms, and particularly the western half of the Sea of Falling Stars; do you have any other suggestions that might better meet my needs?Alokkair, under Fox Ridge in Shadowdale? He's linked to Netheril.
PharaunMizzrym 04-22-07, 02:14 PM	I think Shar would want to be the one to end everything, and not let another deity be the last thing to exist. I do like the idea that Shar cotols him through the heart of Karsus, that would work. As for evil villians, maybe an archmage from the imaskar underground city. The shades would work even better.
MarkusTay63 04-22-07, 03:21 PM	The Malaugrym live in the Shadow Plane.Alokkair, under Fox Ridge in Shadowdale? He's linked to Netheril. Actually, it says in MoF that they use the Shadow Plane to travel to Faerūn, so they are mistakenly thought to come from there.
rmccowen 04-22-07, 03:59 PM	Revised! Before his death, the Dusk Lord created a clone, hidden in a cavern deep beneath the Thunder Peaks--hoping that, even if he fell, he would be able to continue defending the kingdom. When he was finally killed by the forces of Archendale, his soul was transferred to the clone--but the necromantic energies he was employing caused an error. His consciousness was split: part resided in the clone, and part became the insubstantial undead that still haunts the ruins of Sessrendale. Both became entirely mad. Passing into old age, the Dusk Lord's clone began to research magical ways of extending his lifespan. It was then that Shar manifested to him, promising immortality in return for his undying service. Now, more than a century later, he believes he is in the process of discharging his debt. He plans to merge the almost-divine essence of Karsus with the almost-alive essence of Moander, creating a new god of corruption and magic. Shar's possession of the Heart of Karsus ensures that Karsus-Moander will be a subservient power--and, in case he escapes her control, she believes the Shadow Weave will be unaffected by the turmoil that will shortly affect the true Weave. If the PCs fail to stop the plot, Karsus-Moander will awaken, and begin to corrupt Mystra's control over the Weave. The Dusk Lord believes that this will manifest as an immediate change in the physical vicinity of the Darkwatch, spreading within minutes to encompass most of the western end of the Sea of Fallen Stars. Although Mystra will attempt to push back, it's hard to fight the embodiment of Corruption, and the corrupted Weave will continue to (much more slowly) spread outward until it encompasses all of Toril. More likely, the Chosen--who hold personal, untainted reservoirs of Mystra's power--will intervene long before the Weave is wholly corrupted, but even Shar is not certain how they might go about permanently cutting Karsus-Moander off from the Weave. * * * At low levels, the PCs will be focused on the connection to Karsus. Karsites, his magic-resistant mortal descendants, are going missing and falling sick all over Faerun. The missing ones appear to have been kidnapped, and are being exchanged for exorbitant bounties; the PCs trace this connection from the Thunder Peaks to agents in Sembia, and from there to a cult of "Moander" located in Westgate. The Westgate cultists (led by a low-teens CR shadow dracolich) are delving into a hidden, ruined temple beneath the Hill of Fangs. They've gotten control of the upper levels, but the lower levels are still teeming with oozes and aberrations. This is the first bottleneck: the Sharran agents have come to a standstill, and aren't even sure where in the temple this artifact is supposed to be; the PCs have a chance to derail the plot here, if they move fast enough. If they find the artifact, they have to destroy it (involving some sort of planar sidequest). Then they still have to destroy the Dusk Lord, who a) has all the time he wants to figure out an alternate plan, and b) is angry enough to bend all his resources toward capturing the PCs, torturing them, and casting their twisted, mewling souls beyond the known planes. If they don't find the artifact in time, they have to pursue it back to Deepingdale, across the boundary of the Shadow Plane, and to the Dusk Lord's twisted temple at the heart of the Darkwatch, where they'll have to stop the ritual before it can be completed.
PharaunMizzrym 04-22-07, 04:57 PM	Nice.