mantles and personal shields [Archive] - Wizards Community

mantles and personal shields [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
captaincarot
08-08-07, 12:54 PM i've been re reading the elminster series recently and noticed a few discrepancies with how some of the protective magics work,
for example a few times people are mentioned as putting up shields or mantles and then being able to collapse them back on the person who attacked them, causing that person damage.

is there any rules mechanism for this to happen in the game and if so where is it?
Karsus the Mad
08-08-07, 05:22 PM There's the Spell Mantle feat in Lost Empires of Faerun, which requires the Contingent Spell feat. However, it's my belief that such a feat represents a "re-discovery" of the ancient mantles of old, and thus is actually the very basic (and primitive) form of mantles. For "true" mantles, the best I've been able to work up, mechanically at least, is using the mythal seed.
theodisws
08-08-07, 05:32 PM There was a spell in 2ed, might have been called spell mantle or something to that effect. It scaled and was pretty awesome as far as spells go. I think it was in the book that was either a sourcebook for the magister or maybe the seven sisters. It's been too long....
GothicDan
08-08-07, 09:16 PM Mantle was a spell in 2E's Volo's Guide to all Things Magical. It could get obscenely powerful at higher levels.

I believe the spell-collapsing technique was an application of a 'Spell Shear,' which can also shear through antimagic sources. But it has never been statted in canon to date.
Krash
08-08-07, 09:37 PM Is there any rules mechanism for this to happen in the game and if so where is it?

Yes, on my hard drive.:cheer:

-- George Krashos
Alleran
08-08-07, 10:06 PM Would you object to perhaps transferring it off your hard drive and into the purview of the general public? :P
Krash
08-08-07, 11:12 PM I await the DI.:)

-- George Krashos
captaincarot
08-09-07, 02:29 AM Yes, on my hard drive.:cheer:

-- George Krashos

i presume i've got to hire errevis cale to come over there and filch it for me then do i. :P

also are there any rules for creating spell webs anywhere, there are a few instances of mages casting interlinked spells then dropping the whole lot on some one's head, or interlinking spells for defensive purposes, has this ever been translated into game mechanics.
GothicDan
08-09-07, 01:46 PM The Simbul's Spell Sequencer and Trigger are good examples of this type of magic. :)
MaskedOne
08-14-07, 12:56 AM Mantle was a spell in 2E's Volo's Guide to all Things Magical. It could get obscenely powerful at higher levels.

I believe the spell-collapsing technique was an application of a 'Spell Shear,' which can also shear through antimagic sources. But it has never been statted in canon to date.

Secrets of the Magister, Dan for both Mantles and Cleavings which break holes AMF if used from without. Volo had Wardmist, Sash of Spells, Spellfire and reference to something called Balefire but I don't remember any true mantles in it.
GothicDan
08-14-07, 01:42 AM Well, Volo had a Mantle too, having supposedly sneaked it from Halruaa, if I remember correctly.
Karsus the Mad
08-14-07, 07:02 AM Well, Volo had a Mantle too, having supposedly sneaked it from Halruaa, if I remember correctly.
That would be the Sash of Spells, which, if I remember correctly, Volo called, "a paltry modern attempt" at creating the mantles of old Netheril.
Edit: here we go, found :)
Quoted originally by Volo's Never Ceasing Lips
The sections that follow explore some of the routes to personal
power used by both priests and wizards of Faerūn. No talk of such
things is complete without a mention of the always-active “mantle” of
protective spells carried (legends say) by Netherese archmages and built
up throughout their careers until they were sorcerer-kings, akin to
gods! The secrets of such mighty magics are long lost to us, I fear, but
there is one paltry modern equivalent: the sash of spells, which I have
managed to bring out of Halruaa where so many others have failed!
Red_Wizard
08-14-07, 08:54 AM The Simbul's Spell Sequencer and Trigger are good examples of this type of magic. :)

They were great in 3.0. 3.5 made them next to useless IMO.
Karsus the Mad
08-14-07, 09:31 AM They were great in 3.0. 3.5 made them next to useless IMO.
No kidding :)
3.0 versions from Magic of Faerun: Simbul's Spell Sequencer (5th level spell) allowed up to four spells of 3rd level or lower, with 10 minute duration/level.
3.0 Simbul's Spell Trigger (9th level spell) allowed up to four 7th level spells, with 10 minute/level duration.

The 3.5 versions from the Spell Compendium:
Simbul's Spell Sequencer/Spell Matrix in 3.5 (7th level spell): allows up to two spells of 3rd level....and you take damage...10 minute duration/ level.
Simbul's Spell Trigger/Greater Spell Matrix in 3.5 (9th level spell): allows up to three spells of 3rd level, and you take damage. 10 minute duration/level.

I'm not sure why they've been nerfed even further from their original.
Azuth
08-14-07, 10:14 AM I'm not sure why they've been nerfed even further from their original.

I guess it's because back in the days they were actually quite unique spells avaliable only to a very few selected casters. That kind of thing is not really the mindset of 3.5e.

In my campaigns I would probably allow the players (and some BBEG) to develop their own spells similar to the 3.0 version at least - but with some added quests to find the necessary lore. While the 3.5 version would be avaliable to a broader circle of casters.

-Azuth
Red_Wizard
08-14-07, 10:27 AM I'm not sure why they've been nerfed even further from their original.

My theory is as follows.

There is a secret tripartite of DnD classes headed off by the fighter, and followed closely by the Psion and the Sorcerer.

Anything that could harm them/ anything that makes them more powerful, is summarily nerfed or added respectfully.

The following is a snippet of what most likely transpired between 3.0 and 3.5.

Fighter: "That's not fair, Fortitude is my best save, and there is still a chance that I can fail against some of the Wizards spells"

WoTC: "Aww, you're right. Lets make a 3.5 version for you and reduce all the DC's for wizards spells so that a rogue will never take damage, and you-- the best melee class in the game with more free feats available than there are ones you can qualify for-- never need worry about the one thing that can harm you.

Fighter: *Smiles impishly* Thanks a lot guys, that whole balance thing you had going there was really bothering me. I mean seriously, who needs equality when you have me.

Sorcerer: *Whines from across the room* Hey, if he gets lower DC's I want something too.

WoTC: Oh, and what is that?

Sorcerer: Oh I don't know.

How about all the PrC's have special abilities with Charisma based DC's, and a bunch of bonus goodies that make the decision to leave my base class, that I noticed offers nothing as an incentive to stay, easier?

WoTC: That seems like a reasonable request. How about we also make a few Sorcerer only spells for you as well, and top it off with changing most of the items to better accommodate your best score, and the others dump stat?

Sorcerer: That sounds good, I'll let you know though if things begin to even out again.

*Enter Psion*

WoTC: And what can we do for you?

Psion: Oh nothing, I was already broken, I just want to get away from all the guys you ruined with this edition. Man they whine a lot.
GothicDan
08-14-07, 09:11 PM Ah, thanks for the correction, KtM. I knew it was something about a Mantle-ish spell. Ha, paltry comparison. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
captaincarot 08-08-07, 12:54 PM	i've been re reading the elminster series recently and noticed a few discrepancies with how some of the protective magics work, for example a few times people are mentioned as putting up shields or mantles and then being able to collapse them back on the person who attacked them, causing that person damage. is there any rules mechanism for this to happen in the game and if so where is it?
Karsus the Mad 08-08-07, 05:22 PM	There's the Spell Mantle feat in Lost Empires of Faerun, which requires the Contingent Spell feat. However, it's my belief that such a feat represents a "re-discovery" of the ancient mantles of old, and thus is actually the very basic (and primitive) form of mantles. For "true" mantles, the best I've been able to work up, mechanically at least, is using the mythal seed.
theodisws 08-08-07, 05:32 PM	There was a spell in 2ed, might have been called spell mantle or something to that effect. It scaled and was pretty awesome as far as spells go. I think it was in the book that was either a sourcebook for the magister or maybe the seven sisters. It's been too long....
GothicDan 08-08-07, 09:16 PM	Mantle was a spell in 2E's Volo's Guide to all Things Magical. It could get obscenely powerful at higher levels. I believe the spell-collapsing technique was an application of a 'Spell Shear,' which can also shear through antimagic sources. But it has never been statted in canon to date.
Krash 08-08-07, 09:37 PM	Is there any rules mechanism for this to happen in the game and if so where is it? Yes, on my hard drive.:cheer: -- George Krashos
Alleran 08-08-07, 10:06 PM	Would you object to perhaps transferring it off your hard drive and into the purview of the general public? :P
Krash 08-08-07, 11:12 PM	I await the DI.:) -- George Krashos
captaincarot 08-09-07, 02:29 AM	Yes, on my hard drive.:cheer: -- George Krashos i presume i've got to hire errevis cale to come over there and filch it for me then do i. :P also are there any rules for creating spell webs anywhere, there are a few instances of mages casting interlinked spells then dropping the whole lot on some one's head, or interlinking spells for defensive purposes, has this ever been translated into game mechanics.
GothicDan 08-09-07, 01:46 PM	The Simbul's Spell Sequencer and Trigger are good examples of this type of magic. :)
MaskedOne 08-14-07, 12:56 AM	Mantle was a spell in 2E's Volo's Guide to all Things Magical. It could get obscenely powerful at higher levels. I believe the spell-collapsing technique was an application of a 'Spell Shear,' which can also shear through antimagic sources. But it has never been statted in canon to date. Secrets of the Magister, Dan for both Mantles and Cleavings which break holes AMF if used from without. Volo had Wardmist, Sash of Spells, Spellfire and reference to something called Balefire but I don't remember any true mantles in it.
GothicDan 08-14-07, 01:42 AM	Well, Volo had a Mantle too, having supposedly sneaked it from Halruaa, if I remember correctly.
Karsus the Mad 08-14-07, 07:02 AM	Well, Volo had a Mantle too, having supposedly sneaked it from Halruaa, if I remember correctly. That would be the Sash of Spells, which, if I remember correctly, Volo called, "a paltry modern attempt" at creating the mantles of old Netheril. Edit: here we go, found :) Quoted originally by Volo's Never Ceasing Lips The sections that follow explore some of the routes to personal power used by both priests and wizards of Faerūn. No talk of such things is complete without a mention of the always-active “mantle” of protective spells carried (legends say) by Netherese archmages and built up throughout their careers until they were sorcerer-kings, akin to gods! The secrets of such mighty magics are long lost to us, I fear, but there is one paltry modern equivalent: the sash of spells, which I have managed to bring out of Halruaa where so many others have failed!
Red_Wizard 08-14-07, 08:54 AM	The Simbul's Spell Sequencer and Trigger are good examples of this type of magic. :) They were great in 3.0. 3.5 made them next to useless IMO.
Karsus the Mad 08-14-07, 09:31 AM	They were great in 3.0. 3.5 made them next to useless IMO. No kidding :) 3.0 versions from Magic of Faerun: Simbul's Spell Sequencer (5th level spell) allowed up to four spells of 3rd level or lower, with 10 minute duration/level. 3.0 Simbul's Spell Trigger (9th level spell) allowed up to four 7th level spells, with 10 minute/level duration. The 3.5 versions from the Spell Compendium: Simbul's Spell Sequencer/Spell Matrix in 3.5 (7th level spell): allows up to two spells of 3rd level....and you take damage...10 minute duration/ level. Simbul's Spell Trigger/Greater Spell Matrix in 3.5 (9th level spell): allows up to three spells of 3rd level, and you take damage. 10 minute duration/level. I'm not sure why they've been nerfed even further from their original.
Azuth 08-14-07, 10:14 AM	I'm not sure why they've been nerfed even further from their original. I guess it's because back in the days they were actually quite unique spells avaliable only to a very few selected casters. That kind of thing is not really the mindset of 3.5e. In my campaigns I would probably allow the players (and some BBEG) to develop their own spells similar to the 3.0 version at least - but with some added quests to find the necessary lore. While the 3.5 version would be avaliable to a broader circle of casters. -Azuth
Red_Wizard 08-14-07, 10:27 AM	I'm not sure why they've been nerfed even further from their original. My theory is as follows. There is a secret tripartite of DnD classes headed off by the fighter, and followed closely by the Psion and the Sorcerer. Anything that could harm them/ anything that makes them more powerful, is summarily nerfed or added respectfully. The following is a snippet of what most likely transpired between 3.0 and 3.5. Fighter: "That's not fair, Fortitude is my best save, and there is still a chance that I can fail against some of the Wizards spells" WoTC: "Aww, you're right. Lets make a 3.5 version for you and reduce all the DC's for wizards spells so that a rogue will never take damage, and you-- the best melee class in the game with more free feats available than there are ones you can qualify for-- never need worry about the one thing that can harm you. Fighter: Smiles impishly Thanks a lot guys, that whole balance thing you had going there was really bothering me. I mean seriously, who needs equality when you have me. Sorcerer: Whines from across the room Hey, if he gets lower DC's I want something too. WoTC: Oh, and what is that? Sorcerer: Oh I don't know. How about all the PrC's have special abilities with Charisma based DC's, and a bunch of bonus goodies that make the decision to leave my base class, that I noticed offers nothing as an incentive to stay, easier? WoTC: That seems like a reasonable request. How about we also make a few Sorcerer only spells for you as well, and top it off with changing most of the items to better accommodate your best score, and the others dump stat? Sorcerer: That sounds good, I'll let you know though if things begin to even out again. Enter Psion WoTC: And what can we do for you? Psion: Oh nothing, I was already broken, I just want to get away from all the guys you ruined with this edition. Man they whine a lot.
GothicDan 08-14-07, 09:11 PM	Ah, thanks for the correction, KtM. I knew it was something about a Mantle-ish spell. Ha, paltry comparison. :)