| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Tiamat204-24-07, 10:33 AM | In the Power of Faerun sourcebook they sketch out a campaign hook involving Moander tricking avatars, Chosen, priests, or people with divine artifacts into coming to Darkwatch (or a similar place) so that Moander can infest them with its rot. It states that if Moander can infest one avatar or two Chosen (what I wouldn't give for two Chosen to be ingested by Moander, but that's another story) or a lot of mortals to become seeded with its essence, it can revive itself as a demipower. Although Moander has resurrected himself more times than a bad horror movie villain and I wish Wizards would consider bringing back other dead gods, this section intrigued me, but its horribly bereft of details. In 2e Faiths and Avatars, they make some reference to Moander seeding his followers and this granting him total control over them. Is this the "rot" this section is referring to? What kind of saving throws would be necessary? Would you notice if you were infected by Moander (it implies you might not in Power of Faerun, but I'm not sure that's reasonable; though I guess Tyche never noticed, despite the clear physical signs)? Is the range of control infinite? What could cure the rot or remove its infestation? I also wondered if Power of Faerun was pre-empting the storyline of Lolth posing as Moander or if that storyline had concluded itself before and I just missed it. |
| Sliced_Mustard04-24-07, 02:12 PM | sounds like a tastey tidbit to follow up on. I too would like to know more. |
| Stigger04-24-07, 04:20 PM | Hmmm... I hated that plot hook idea personally. I'd just like him to stay dead, rather than do the rise from the ashes return, which I think violates his portfolio in some respects honestly. But going on with it anyway... I would presume that was the rot that being referred to there, but yeah, it is pretty vague. I would say a couple of saving throws personally, a Fort save to fight off the infection physically, and a Will save to fight it off spiritually. As to it being noticed... not sure. Think I'd maybe work noticing it into the first will save, if you fail it within a certain range close to success you notice it, or something like that. Maybe a second will save to notice it... seems kinda clumsy really, but not much else is coming to mind. Not sure on the range, might have been infinite when he was a full blown power, but at his reduced state I kinda doubt it. Cures... I'd say remove curse or something along those lines... maybe break enchantment. Depends on how you want to treat it really. I mean, you could make it exotic like enduring a sunburst going off at close range to cure it, or just a standard little bit of ick to get rid of with a clerics help, or something in between. Whatever works best for your campaign and its needs makes the most sense to me. |
| MarkusTay6304-24-07, 05:12 PM | I thought this thread was going to be about a new 'club' opening up in Waterdeep. ;) And Stig, another good point. :cookie: Why doesn't the god of rot and decay want to rot away and die? :uh-huh: |
| Tiamat204-24-07, 05:39 PM | I thought this thread was going to be about a new 'club' opening up in Waterdeep. ;) And Stig, another good point. :cookie: Why doesn't the god of rot and decay want to rot away and die? :uh-huh: I know both you and Stigger were being flippant, but Moander wanting to rot to death would be a lot like Beshaba wanting to curse herself with bad luck. Gods evoke their portfolios, they don't necessarily suffer from them (though some, like Talona, do). As for Stigger's point, I'm not sure that depiction of Rot would be enough to effect an avatar or a Chosen, which apparently is the point of Moander's "plan". |
| Stigger04-24-07, 05:43 PM | Actually I wasn't being flippant there... I was thinking along the lines that Siamorphe has no problem with different incarnations of itself, so why should Moander. Seems more appropriate to the portfolio rather than tenaciously clinging to existance. True enough, but I'm not sure how his plan could work really, given his relative weakness and the likely probability that he's severely outclassed compared to an Avatar. Seems like a really crap plan on his part to be honest, too heavy on the thumb twiddling, mustache curling end of things. |
| Tiamat204-24-07, 05:52 PM | Actually I wasn't being flippant there... I was thinking along the lines that Siamorphe has no problem with different incarnations of itself, so why should Moander. Seems more appropriate to the portfolio rather than tenaciously clinging to existance. Then I simply don't understand your point. Since Moander is the god of rotting decay, it should rot itself to death and then stay dead? How does that serve the portfolio? By your logic, Beshaba really should be cursed with bad luck, Shar should suffer from a poor memory (portfolio of forgetfulness), and Talos should seek to destroy himself (destruction). I don't really want to discuss dead gods in general (frankly, I could never keep my cool on the subject), but it seems to me only natural that Moander would want to revive itself to inflict more rotting corruption on Faerun, especially since its core portfolio remains in its hands (no one has ever subsumed it). Also, I don't want to get too sidetracked. I didn't write the hook and I can't explain FR's love/hate relationship with Moander (if you want it in the setting, stop letting second rate heroes kill it in some third-rate novel), but I found the idea somewhat interesting, but very underdeveloped. The hook acts as though Moander's rot simply can't be resisted. If something is tricked into being infected, then Moander simply wins. I'm not satisfied with that, but if enough of Moander's power was trapped in Tsornyl, perhaps that would make it the match for an Avatar that wandered into range. I think the idea is that Moander can't confront anything directly at the moment, but it is very dangerous if allowed to spread inside someone. |
| Stigger04-24-07, 06:00 PM | Was more getting at the idea that the portfolio should be passed on to a successor rather than retained by the tenacious Moander. Would make it far more vital if it was, since it wouldn't go into the long dormancy periods his death/rebirth cycle put it through. But yeah, a somewhat irrelevant tangent. The idea itself is good though, and really fascinating if you switch out the annoying Moander part. Maybe a plot by Shar centered around a mystical site or something. Possibly Talona for use against Loviater and her minions or something... Mask would make sense in a way as well, if its stealing power from other powerhouses to empower himself. Maybe a trap by the Red Wizards even, set for the Simbul... you could really have fun with this one if you put a little bit of work into it, something you don't seem all that afraid of. :) |
| Tiamat204-24-07, 06:09 PM | It works better for another dead god than an existing god, I think. Shar is already a greater deity, so I'm not sure where she has to go from there. I'd use Bhaal or Myrkul over Moander but I've never "recognized" their deaths to begin with, so that would be kind of hypocritical. I'm with you in a way that its a little silly for Moander to die and come back as often as FR has done it and apparently will continue to do it. I'm not a very good "rules" person, but I guess I need to figure out how to design this rot in a way that makes it powerful enough to infect and destroy an Avatar/Chosen, but also fits within the rules and isn't just a DM "oh you've lost" trick. |
| Stigger04-24-07, 06:40 PM | Well, you could use Auppenser maybe, and have the whole psionic aspect of him as a stealthy way for it to work, since its outside of most peoples normal experiences, but that depends a lot on if you want to thrust psionics into the fray that much. Could use it for Vhaeraun, or however that's spelled, too, with much the same justification as Mask, if you're following the whole drow pantheon disintegration thing. Don't really use that one myself though. Amuanator perhaps, could fit in well with the recent surge in interest with him. The N part of him could justify it if you're flexible in your interpretation of it. Maybe Gilgaem could work too... not really his style per se, but beggers can't be choosers, so I could see him resorting to it without any better alternatives. You've got a lot of options there really. |
| Khellrendros04-24-07, 06:57 PM | While I admit that I am not an expert from my point of view I would say that the first being subjected to the rot shouldn't have a way to get out of it. The Chosen while very powerful are still mortal beings and I don't think the remainder of a "dead" gods essence would be easy to overcome even being severely weakened. As far as an Aspect I still feel the same way while powerful they carry only a small portion of their gods power and Moander is still a slumbering deity. So for the first victim I wouldn't allow a single save. Moander has put every bit of his remaining essence into controlling this being. However I wouldn’t immediately allow full control of the infected host. Instead a progressive take over as Moander builds his strength is better IMO. Also getting rid of the rot shouldn't just require a spell from a cleric it should be a race against time, with Moander controlling the creature more and more often as they try to find a cure. Anyway that might help you and maybe not but it's an idea I would consider using. |
| Tiamat204-24-07, 07:12 PM | I agree with Khell, above, about the saving throw for the intended victim (the avatar or Chosen), but perhaps if Moander is taking control of a PC in order to lure a main target, the target should get a saving throw against this mind control. I also agree that there probably shouldnt' be a way to get rid of it, beyond a major plot point (like destroying Moander or the source of the rot) once you are infected. |
| HVulpes04-26-07, 09:15 PM | Here's an idea... What if Moander was to get his vessel (an avatar or Chosen, lets say Elminster) and slowly tries to take over that figure, only to have the divine power in that figure fight back? What if Eliminster's original personality remained in the control of Moander's power, but to be slowly replaced by a more corrupted version of it? I got this from a Nick show, but the idea is interesting as you get the ressurection of the 'power' of Moander, but not his personality. You create a new god of rot from the old as rot is a form of change, even if a gross and sickening one. |
| Burningspear04-26-07, 11:14 PM | Although rot is his core portfolio, he still has rebirth stuck to his personality, as would anybody with a healthy dose of wanting to live, i guess that even though that portfolio has been stolen by Finder, he still has it ingrained in his core personality... |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 05:48 AM | Thematically, things that rot/decay lead to greater growth, remember. Maybe in the future, Moander's just going to explode with power... Maybe it's a cycle, and he gains a little more, storing it up somewhere else, each time... I like Moander a lot - as well as Jergal, Myrkul, Shar, Talona, and Talos. A lot of dismal destruction, corruption, enervation, death, and nihilism going on. They all seem to tie in very nicely to one another. |
| Old Sage04-27-07, 05:57 AM | They're my Dark Gods... ;) |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 06:00 AM | We have the same core evil pantheon! Does that mean we're the same religion? |
| Old Sage04-27-07, 06:42 AM | If we're talking a religion that embraces dismal destruction, corruption, enervation, death, and nihilism... Then, yes. ;) |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 06:58 AM | Oh, well. That's not me. *Shifty eyes.* I don't believe in the ultimate heat death of the universe or anything. |
| Tiamat204-27-07, 08:28 AM | Jergal is definetely reaching waaaay back for a "dark" god (I've always wondered whether Jergal was always LN or whether he adopted that alignment after passing his power to Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul). |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 08:34 AM | He was LE in the Netheril boxed set. :) His write up, and Amaunator's, are just about the only things I like about that set. |
| Tiamat204-27-07, 09:09 AM | That answers that question. If I were constructing an ideal FR pantheon (not that I haven't heavily modified it anyway, but there are limits to what I feel I can get away with), I would probably replace Bane with Jergal. |
| Old Sage04-27-07, 09:57 AM | And for an alternate take on Jergal, I would suggest you read through Eric's FR conversion notes of DUNGEON's "Age of Worms" adventure path, which began in issue #124. Here's the direct link (http://paizo.com/dungeonissues/124/DA124_Supplement_LRes.pdf) to the first part of the conversion. |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 03:57 PM | Mmmm, Jergal. |
| MarkusTay6304-27-07, 04:20 PM | Yes, in many ways the 'older, simpler' pantheon was better. It gets very confusing at times. So Baast is the Egyptian god of cats, but as the Faerun Pantheon's Bast she absorbed power from Zandilar (and learned to dance), then hung out with Shar and became Sharess. But Baast is a lesser god, and Sharess is a demi-god. :confused: But she is still considered the 'Beast Lord' (totemic spirit) of felines, right? But then does Nobanion have any control over cats at all, or is it all animals because he represents the "King of the Beasts", in which case wouldn't that bring HIM into conflict with Malor, who in turn.... See what I mean? How many settings do you know can produce three volumes detailing the gods, and still leave everyone confused? When it comes to game rules, simpler is infinitely better. I don't mind an enormous number of deities IMG, but their interactions in FR is a little akward, at best. Of course, I've always played it as they were 'indescribably powerful and unreachable', so their interactions don't really matter one iota to my players. They just pick a god from the book with the domains they want and thats as far as it goes. If I ever start playing again (probably over the summer), I might give my son's priest a 'quest from his god', but his god is Kord lol. I'll have to tie-in Kord's bizzare inclusion with the quest I suppose, just to make everything right in the world. |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 04:23 PM | I actually like the newer, more 'confusing,' and realistic pantheon for FR, since it really gives it a more pagan feel. I just like Jergal and Amaunator. ;) |
| Stigger04-27-07, 05:19 PM | *gasp* I find myself agreeing with Dan... been a while since that happened. :D |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 05:27 PM | Maybe if you guys would behave more like proper Sun Elves, you'd find me more agreeable, and life much easier to live! |
| Stigger04-27-07, 06:02 PM | See, pro-sun elf sentiments coming out once more... and you say you're unbiased. :tongue: |
| Tiamat204-27-07, 06:05 PM | I actually like the newer, more 'confusing,' and realistic pantheon for FR, since it really gives it a more pagan feel. I just like Jergal and Amaunator. ;) I intensely dislike the new pantheon, but with a few changes you can make it more useable. |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 06:12 PM | By newer, I mean before the Time of Troubles. :) But I would still keep most of the demigods and the other pantheons' gods, etc. Just no Cyric, no Kelemvor, and the like. |
| Tiamat204-27-07, 07:38 PM | By newer, I mean before the Time of Troubles. :) But I would still keep most of the demigods and the other pantheons' gods, etc. Just no Cyric, no Kelemvor, and the like. Oh, then we're on almost completely the same page. |
| Arbourean04-28-07, 12:00 AM | Lolth is only masquerading as Moander and hasn't taken any of his portfolio, correct? |
| GothicDan04-28-07, 01:02 AM | As far as I know, that's correct Arbourean. To go back to the topic a little... What if the rot was purely a spiritual rot with no actual physical side-effects until you had "already failed the last saving throw?" That way it WOULD be super hard for the characters to notice anything wrong. And perhaps Moander could infect weaker people first, and with every person (or HD of people) affected, the saving throw would get harder... So in time it COULD hit a Chosen or Avatar without pure DM hand-waving. |
| Stigger04-28-07, 07:14 AM | The balance is restored then... I like the post ToT pantheon much better. Whew, was getting worried there... |
| GothicDan04-28-07, 08:55 PM | You like Cyric and Kelemvor and all of them MORE...?! Stigger, I'm sorry, we can't be friends anymore. ;) |
| MarkusTay6304-28-07, 09:07 PM | It's not the Pantheon I dislike guys... I actually ADD gods to my campaign. It's the obscure 'who really controls what' thing that bothers me. Supposedly no two gods can have the same portfolio, but that is really just meaningless drivel. You can have a hundred different gods of war, and each of them could claim a different aspect of it as their portfolio. But then... who's in charge? Want two different gods of murder? Have one of bloody masacre (Bhaal) and one of sneaky bloodless killing, as in poison and strangulation. The rules are so open-eneded that they aren't really rules at all. That is why I liked it when the gods were 'mysterious' and without rules, and just useful tools for a DM to pull off a few plot hooks. I don't care if there are eight million gods (as there are in KT), just have it make some sense. |
| Stigger04-28-07, 10:04 PM | Nah, Cyric I usually kill off before I get past day one of the campaign, if that long. Kelemvor (particularly, goes more along with how I tend to view death personally) and the new Mystra I do like though. Leira always kinda annoyed me, so I was glad to see her go... |
| Tiamat204-29-07, 10:07 AM | Nah, Cyric I usually kill off before I get past day one of the campaign, if that long. Kelemvor (particularly, goes more along with how I tend to view death personally) and the new Mystra I do like though. Leira always kinda annoyed me, so I was glad to see her go... I used to not be able to imagine anyone how anyone could prefer Kelemvor, but then I posted about this issue a few years ago and was shocked. Now I prefer to force myself to imagine that no one could possibly prefer Kelemvor. Erasing this post from my memory . . . now. As for the point about the FR pantheon having strange overlapping gods, I agree. It would be much better if they would have a consistent set of portfolio rules and would follow them. GothicDan and Stigger prefer having lots of demigods and lesser powers to create a more confusing pantheon, but I'm not sure why. I also don't quite understand why these smaller gods aren't absorbed by their superiors more consistently, especially in the wake of the Time of Troubles, where number of followers directly effects divine power. In my mind, there simply are far too many good-aligned demipowers who are redundant. |
| Stigger04-29-07, 11:09 AM | Kelemvor promotes the idea that death is a natural force in the world, that its not necessarily something to be feared. I can't stand the idea of 'fearing' death, its just unnatural to me. Its as much a part of life as living. Philosophically, Kelemvor makes more sense to me as a deity of death. As to why I prefer those 'smaller gods', life is diverse, why shouldn't the dieites be? One of my major problems with monotheistic beliefs is that life is just too complex, too diverse, too infinite to ever be encompassed by a single philosophy. I extend that idea to polytheistic pantheons as well, that a relatively small number of deities can't offer something for everyone, and that with the myriad people out there, more is better, since it offers something for everyone, rather than forcing them into large blanket religions. You see redundancy, I see nuanced differences that put them miles apart from each other on a philosophical level. From my understanding of the ToT, one of the major problems was that the deities were semi-ignoring the wants and needs of their followers, and they got punished for that. By striving for homogeneity rather than diversity, they'd just be setting themselves up for much the same problem in the future, or at the least tearing their worshippers apart with almost constant heresies. One only has to look to the period leading up to the Inquisition and the Reformation to see that attempts at homogeneous dogma just don't work, given all the heresies that started popping up just prior to that period, and which persisted even in the face of a concerted effort to stamp them out. Now look at the patchwork of just Christianity these days... each denomination subtly different from the next. Conformity works on a small scale level, its part of being a basically social creature really, but it doesn't work on a large scale level too well, since interpretation creeps in on a local level and undermines the whole concept eventually. Hence, why I think that diversity works better in comparison to large blanket religions. |
| Tiamat204-29-07, 11:12 AM | We have completely fundamentally different philosophies on every level, Stigger. So much so, that on this issue, I won't say anymore since it will just become a painful debate. In gaming terms, having a LN (leans good) god of the dead (greater power) unbalances the pantheon, something that every major DnD setting has recognized and something that FR recognized for a long time, before novels perverted it. That's all I'll say. Discussing Kelemvor is extremely unpleasant (I feel dirty even typing his name). |
| Tiamat204-29-07, 11:17 AM | In terms of the Moander hook, I've decided that a saving throw will be used in terms of Moander creating puppets to lure targets into Darkwatch (Tsornyl), but that if it manages to actually attract a major artifact, priest, Chosen, or avatar, then it will absord them simply as a plot-device. It makes no sense for a campaign's direction to be decided by an NPC's saving throw roll anyway. The people who wrote the hook seemed to think that Moander had enough divine power to defeat a Chosen, etc. so I see no reason to dispute that. It would be nice to work out the mechanics of the rotting in terms of the rules, but if you think of it as similar to the Tyche fable (when a dead Moander absorbed and ultimately destroyed the more powerful goddess of luck), then its consistent with other realmslore anyway. |
| Stigger04-29-07, 11:25 AM | Fair enough, though I wasn't trying to debate the issue, simply telling you why I feel the way I do. No ones right, no ones wrong, just different in opinion. :) |
| GothicDan04-29-07, 11:32 AM | It makes no sense for a campaign's direction to be decided by an NPC's saving throw roll anyway. I think that's the key point, Tiamat. I agree! To Stigger: I'm right, you're wrong. That's my opinion. ;) |
| Stigger04-29-07, 12:28 PM | How very mature of you Dan... I applaud your gold elf nature showing through once more. :tongue: |
| GothicDan04-29-07, 01:42 PM | If anything, I'm growing more and more gold elf (intolerant) the longer I stay on these forums, for some reason. ;) |
| BrennonGoldeye04-29-07, 01:50 PM | If anything, I'm growing more and more gold elf (intolerant) the longer I stay on these forums, for some reason. ;) Its comes with the whole "other people" thing. Walking around acting like they have "needs" and "issues". Just wait until you have had to deal with them for 40odd years. You will be sooooo over it.;) |
| GothicDan04-29-07, 01:56 PM | But I'm just fine dealing with "other people" OFF of the forums! |
| Stigger04-29-07, 07:23 PM | Nah, Dan's just slowly going over to the Dark (gold elf) side... pretty soon he'll have the pointy ears and start speaking only in elven, sitting in trees and sniping people with his bow, occassionally leaping out of trees in the dead of night to hack the random passerby... waging his own one elf war against the lesser races. :D |
| Tiamat205-01-07, 04:51 PM | If anything, I'm growing more and more gold elf (intolerant) the longer I stay on these forums, for some reason. ;) I sympathize with you, whether you were being serious or not. Its why I go through long periods of not looking at the forums. |
| BrennonGoldeye05-01-07, 09:52 PM | Mmmhmm. I get that. :) |
| GothicDan05-02-07, 01:56 PM | Nah, Dan's just slowly going over to the Dark (gold elf) side... pretty soon he'll have the pointy ears and start speaking only in elven, sitting in trees and sniping people with his bow, occassionally leaping out of trees in the dead of night to hack the random passerby... waging his own one elf war against the lesser races. I'm sorry, I think you're confusing me with a Wild Elf. As a Gold Elf, I would lock myself in my tower and push the boundaries of magic and knowledge, and in time work on a mighty epic ritual that would prove to the lesser masses the superiority of the Ar'Tel'Quessir, and have them bow down at my feet. And I would treat those loyal to me as my favored pets! |
| Stigger05-02-07, 03:56 PM | Ah, right, my bad, sorry Dan. :tongue: |