more than one patron deity? [Archive] - Wizards Community

more than one patron deity? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
xpochian
08-18-07, 10:13 PM is it possible for a player to have more than one patron deity? i realize a pantheistic worship is possible, but not usually with the deities she's chosen: after an intense spell-battle, a warlock has decided to have mystra as well as lathander as her patron deities. i realize this is all rather unorthodox, but could it be possible? should it be possible?

thanks in advance.
PriestOfLathander
08-19-07, 12:40 AM The way i would see it is that a Cleric and Paladin only worship one God as that is the God that they go into the world to defend and spread.

But if a faithful Fighter or Monk etc, where to prey to one god for protection and another to guide him in battle then that is ok, as classes other than Divine ones arent as devoted to Gods.

This is just how i see Deities and Worshipping.
GothicDan
08-19-07, 01:12 AM By the RAW, you cannot have more than one. By common sense and according to the creator of the world, 'patron deities' only really exist for religious casters, and even then, not always.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
08-19-07, 09:18 PM Yeah, it's been stated many times by Ed Greenwood that very few people worship only one deity. Even some clerics serve more than one deity (if you need an example, there's Larajin from the Sembia series--she serves both Sune and Hanali).

The whole "patron deity" thing is really more about 3E rules than setting.
Faraer
08-21-07, 03:57 AM is it possible for a player to have more than one patron deity?Power of Faerûn clarifies that 'Most folk in Faerûn embrace (or drift into) primary worship of one deity above -- even if only slightly above -- all others.' Except for priests, the distinction between your most-worshipped god and your second-most-worshipped god is only quantitative, not qualitative, and not everyone sees their most-worshipped god as their 'patron'. As Rinonalyrna, says, the FRCS's emphasis on patrons is a rules artefact.i realize this is all rather unorthodox, but could it be possible? should it be possible?It isn't unorthodox or uncommon; many characters are known to favour two or three deities approximately equally. Mages often worship Mystra alongside another primary god.
Old Sage
08-21-07, 08:44 AM Even some clerics serve more than one deity (if you need an example, there's Larajin from the Sembia series--she serves both Sune and Hanali).A few other examples:-

Salyndra Shaern who is a female half-elf cleric and worships both Oghma and Corellon equally.

Myrmeen Lhal, the ranger and ruler of Arabel, worships both Mielikki and Tymora.
MarkHall
08-21-07, 10:43 AM A few other examples:-

Salyndra Shaern who is a female half-elf cleric and worships both Oghma and Corellon equally.

Myrmeen Lhal, the ranger and ruler of Arabel, worships both Mielikki and Tymora.

Qilue Veladorn? She may be a priest of Elistraee, but she does have a certain element of reverence for Mystra.
Old Sage
08-21-07, 11:53 AM Re: Qilué

. . . her Chosen of Eilistraee title . . . means two things: she's as loyal to Eilistraee as to Mystra (in daily practise, as shown in SILVERFALL, more so), and Eilistraee foresees using her in some great task (i.e. a not-yet-revealed destiny).Qilué was born to a drow female and prominent worshipper of Eilistraee. Elue Shundar, the mortal host of Mystra, died before Mystra/Shundar could carry the seventh child, Qilué, to full term. And so, a new mother had to be found before Mystra's own power consumed the child. Mystra set about looking for another suitable womb for the unborn Qilué, and found Iliryztara Veladorn. Veladorn was also pregnant but her adventuring ways had resulted in the death of her own unborn child -- she was not aware of this however -- and as a result, her own life was threatened because of it. Mystra decided to replace Iliryztara's dead unborn child with Qilué, thus saving both Qilué's and Iliryztara's lives. However, Eilistraee had plans for Iliryztara and her unborn child. Mystra, thus, sought permission from Eilistraee about whether the Goddess of Mysteries could intervene in Veladorn's life. Eilistraee agreed and Qilué was placed in Iliryztara's womb. When Qilué was born, she was born a drow and servant of both Mystra and Eilistraee.

This is explained fully in The Seven Sisters.
MarkusTay63
08-21-07, 01:02 PM So Quilue is a priestess of one god, and the Chosen of another.

I think that just about answers the question. ;)

Also, Khelben worshipped Mystra, and was also her Chosen, yet went to Arvandor after he died, which also proves that who you worship has no bearing on where you go when you die.

Poor Drizzt... he's headed for the Demonweb Pits for sure. :D
MarkHall
08-21-07, 03:10 PM Also, Khelben worshipped Mystra, and was also her Chosen, yet went to Arvandor after he died, which also proves that who you worship has no bearing on where you go when you die.

When did Khelben die?
Old Sage
08-21-07, 09:00 PM See Steven Schend's incredible Blackstaff novel -- 'tis part of 'The Wizards' series.
The_Shaman
08-22-07, 08:46 AM I think a lay worshipper would probably seek the favor of several deities, but hold one somewhat above the others, a bit like how patron saints were viewed once. To paraphrase a saying out of Races of the Dragon, respect all gods; worship only one.
MarkusTay63
08-24-07, 02:10 AM Also. I have been re-reading the old 1e CS and many of the NPCs in there are listed as worshipping more then one god, which would make sense in a pantheon-based culture. There are even priests who get spells from more then one god in those old (cherished) books.

When did Khelben die?Sorry. :(

That should have been a spoiler... I just assumed everyone knew that already (it's been all over the boards).
Zandilar
08-24-07, 08:52 AM Heya,

Myrmeen Lhal, the ranger and ruler of Arabel, worships both Mielikki and Tymora.

This I'm not really sure of. I know there was some deal done between Mielikki and Tymora concerning Myrmeen. I know that Tymora stayed in Arabel during the Time of Troubles largely because of her. Tymora is the deity who grants Myrmeen her ranger spells. I suppose the Lady Lord of Arabel could still worship her former patron - but I don't think that's been definitively stated in a source book.

In her novel and short story appearances, I don't think she's ever mentioned either deity.
MarkHall
08-24-07, 11:14 PM Sorry. :(

That should have been a spoiler... I just assumed everyone knew that already (it's been all over the boards).

Don't worry about it. Like I said, I don't read a ton of novels. Heck, I've never read the Icewind Dale trilogy (just bought it used, but it's going to have to wait until I've finished my Jack Vance and Poul Anderson).
Gray Richardson
08-25-07, 01:57 PM If you think about it, choosing a patron deity really has less to do with picking one god to worship above all others, but rather is more about deciding which afterlife you wish to go to when you die. You can worship as many gods as you like, and your feelings toward them may wax and wane with time. But the fundamental choice of patron deity determines who is going to have custody of your soul when you finally kick it.

When your soul goes to the Fugue Plane, the rule is that only your patron deity can lay claim to your soul and pick you up from the fugue plane. Deciding on a patron deity is really about buying a ticket to eternity.

Some afterlives are a lot less fun than others. Although, pretty much any divine realm will appeal to someone out there. I would personally not care to march eternally in the armies of Bane, or spend even a moment in loviatar's torture chambers, or endure the bitter cold of Auril's realm for all of time. Though I am sure that there are those characters that might crave such fates.

Personally, I would choose one of the gods from Brightwater, probably Lliira. Because Brightwater is party-central of the Great Tree, and I think I would be very comfortable with spending my afterlife on that plane. It certainly appeals to me over the dutiful toils assigned to worshipers of Helm or Torm or Ilmater in the House of the Triad. Arvandor is nice, but then again you would be stuck with all those elves...

House of Knowledge could also be fun. All those books. And the best thing, the very best thing of all, is there would be time then... all the time I need and all the time I want. Time, time, time. Time enough at last!

And if you break your eyeglasses, Gond can make you a new pair. :cool:
MarkusTay63
08-25-07, 02:33 PM And this is why I think the current version of 'afterlife' in D&D makes NO sese what-so-ever.

You are right to want to go to Brightwaters - who wouldn't? Or Arvandor if your more 'green' minded, or any of a dozen other places I could name.

Why would ANYONE in their right minds want to go to a plane ruled by an evil god for all eternity?

That makes NO sense!

Not even an evil perosn wants that, it's just silly.

Bad god's afterlives should be a punishment, not a reward; but hey, what do I know? :cool:

The other thing I'd like to point out is this - in Prince of Lies, Cyric tricks someone into petitioning him for favor, by posing as another god. So Cyric claims his soul, even though he never once called out to Cyric...

I just didn't get THAT at all... :nonono:

I think authors should leave the gods be, and designers she keep from statting them out. The more we find out about the gods in D&D, the less sense it all seems to make.

It made the most sense back in the good old days when the gods were just mysterious beings that no-one could fathom.

Just my take - sorry for going off-topic.
Gray Richardson
08-25-07, 04:47 PM Well, I have to, respectfully, disagree. It may not make sense to you, but I think makes plenty of sense if you look at it from another vantage point.

Did you ever read the Myth of Sisyphus by the existentialist author/philosopher Camus? In the Greek myth, Sisyphus was condemned to Tartarus (for thinking himself more clever than the gods) until he could roll a boulder up to the summit of a mountain. But the boulder was cursed so that before he could make it to the top, the boulder would slip out of his hands and roll all the way down the mountain.

I can just imagine Sisyphus's dawning horror, not so much the first time (could have been a fluke), but the second time that the stone escaped from his grasp. :blink:

Now you might think this was a particular kind of torture--to perpetually labor at an impossible and ultimately meaningless task--but Camus explains in his essay that it is the very striving itself that gives Sisyphus's toil meaning, and he concludes: "The struggle itself is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy."

Not my idea of a happy afterlife, but it seemed to work for Sisyphus. I could see it.

Sure, you can say that an afterlife in a plane ruled by an evil god is not your cup of tea. But there are many brands of tea. And enough cups to go around for everyone.

There are dutiful people who strive to live by a code in life, and you can imagine that such people would find fulfillment in serving Helm or Torm or Tyr in the afterlife. There are nurturing, caring people who would find comfort with Chauntea nurturing plants and coaxing young saplings to grow tall in the Great Mothers garden.

There are certainly those who enjoy pain, both the receiving or giving of it, and of those people I can imagine some will thrill to serve Ilmater, while others will find Loviatar's dungeons to be a paradise.

There are those who enjoy striving toward a mutual purpose, they enjoy being in a pecking order, they might like fighting, warfare and exercising tyranny over others. Those fellows will find an idyllic afterlife among the ranks of Bane's band of brothers.

No doubt that Hammergrim is a particular kind of paradise for the duergar. While it might seem a kind of hell for some folk, it is aptly suited to those pursuits that delight a duergar.

Whether you relish the joy of battle, or like to lose yourself in a good book; whether you like to perform in plays, or prefer to treacherously betray your kindred; whether you like to fight your way to the top of a hierarchy by tooth and nail or by clever machinations and application of your stellar wit; there is a paradise in the realms suited to you.

You may find it hard to see why a person would want to spend eternity in certain planes, but just accept that they do. And those people are exactly the kind that gravitate to those gods who offer the kind of afterlife that suits their personality and temperament. In fact, gods serve people as much as people bend their knees to gods.

The gods are an expression of hopes, fears and dreams of the people that worship them. And the afterlives those gods offer to their followers are an expression and extension of the philosophies and portfolios that those gods represent.

You know, they say no matter how you look or what you are into, there is "someone" out there for everyone. And in the Realms, there is an afterlife for everyone too.

:ghosted:
Faraer
09-04-07, 03:25 PM If you think about it, choosing a patron deity really has less to do with picking one god to worship above all others, but rather is more about deciding which afterlife you wish to go to when you die.Realmslore shows us, though, that people in Faerûn don't think that way. They don't make a deliberate choice about who to worship, often don't have a conscious 'patron' deity at all, don't see religion either in monolatristic terms or in such selfish, personal ones. This is hard to reconcile -- even given the fact that folk know only contradictory and unconfirmed stories and theories of the afterlife -- with the setup introduced in the Avatar novels, which is based on a misconception of Faerûnian religion and should long ago have been discarded along with the other misportrayals in those books.
Gray Richardson
09-04-07, 07:50 PM Perhaps yes, perhaps no. Certainly the clergy of various deities will use that god's divine realm, including promises of its benefits and wonders, and the horribleness of the afterlives offered by other gods, as a selling point for selecting their god as a patron. That is just human nature.

You see that in Earth cultures as well. The afterlife is a big consideration for many humans here on Earth in selecting a patron deity. Don't put it past the clergy of Faerûn to use any less "fire & brimstone" in their own sermons.

People may not choose a patron solely for his divine realm any more than employees choose a place to work solely because of the health plan offered. But in the scheme of the metaphysics of Toril, I merely point out that the only thing of true import determined by choosing a patron god is where your soul will go when you die.

It is a rule that was probably scribed long ago in the tablets of Ao or in the treaty signed by all the gods at Cynosure at the conclusion of the War of Light and Darkness. The rule (or agreement) serves to regulate the afterlife, preventing gods from fighting over souls, preventing Jergal/Myrkul/Cyric/Kelemvor from keeping souls he was not entitled to, and ensuring first and foremost that the choice of afterlife is vested solely in the mortal making the decision.

So, sure, the mortals making the decisions may not give it the due consideration that the choice merits. But it is better than gods making the decision for them. Mortals may make this choice lightly, ill-advisedly, or never give it any conscious thought at all. But there are enough clerics in Faerûn that people have the opportunity to be advised about their choice.

You can bet that clerics will preach about it in temples and shrines and advise anyone who will listen. The knowledge is out there to be had. It's up to the individual person how to use that knowledge and to make the choice for himself. And I think that is ultimately a pretty fair and just way to determine a soul's fate. :twocents:
Eccerion
09-05-07, 05:54 PM "I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks and apostles"
- Niccolò Machiavelli.

"I'd go to heaven for the scenery, and to hell for the company"
- Mark Twain.

I remember in an episode of "Black Adder" that a dying man was told about the differances between heaven and hell:
"Heaven you see, is for people who enjoy the sort of things that go on in heaven, like playing harps, talking to god, watering potplants" :eek:
"Wheras hell you see is for people who enjoy...other things, like torture, adultury, pillage. Give your lands to the crown, and once your dead, you will have the time of your life" :)

One persons idea of the perfect after life might be dramatically different then anothers. The vikings idea of heavan was to go to Valhalla where they would spend eterity drinking, *****ing and fighting, not neccessarilly in that order but still it was a very different idea of the perfect afterlife then the christians had.

Any person on faerun can freely choose their patron god, and most non divine casters will change theirs many times in the course of their lives, the important thing is that when they die they will have lived their lives according to their current patron gods dogma.
So if a follower of Chuntea has been a dillligent farmer and planted and tended crops and cared for the land before the makes the trip, he'll get picked up by the earthmother or one of her servants and taken to the everbountiful harvest that is the afterlife.
If the same guy however spent his life torching crops and tipping over cows he'll be in deep doo-doo when he gets to the fuge plain and theres an angry astral dive waiting to hear his explenation, and it had better be a good one or its off to the place they send the false, and anything that makes Devils cringe is something you'll want to keep your soul away from.

How devoted a follower of a god is is as varied as it is in the real world, some give reverance to their dieties every day, some occasionaly, some only mention them when they need help.

The faerunian worshippers who truly devont themselves wholeheartedly to their gods are the ones who usally enter into the ranks of the divine classes, and they can show that their gods acknowledge their devotion by granting them spells and powers, so as to better serve their patrons in life before they go on to whatever awaits them in the afterlife.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
xpochian 08-18-07, 10:13 PM	is it possible for a player to have more than one patron deity? i realize a pantheistic worship is possible, but not usually with the deities she's chosen: after an intense spell-battle, a warlock has decided to have mystra as well as lathander as her patron deities. i realize this is all rather unorthodox, but could it be possible? should it be possible? thanks in advance.
PriestOfLathander 08-19-07, 12:40 AM	The way i would see it is that a Cleric and Paladin only worship one God as that is the God that they go into the world to defend and spread. But if a faithful Fighter or Monk etc, where to prey to one god for protection and another to guide him in battle then that is ok, as classes other than Divine ones arent as devoted to Gods. This is just how i see Deities and Worshipping.
GothicDan 08-19-07, 01:12 AM	By the RAW, you cannot have more than one. By common sense and according to the creator of the world, 'patron deities' only really exist for religious casters, and even then, not always.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-19-07, 09:18 PM	Yeah, it's been stated many times by Ed Greenwood that very few people worship only one deity. Even some clerics serve more than one deity (if you need an example, there's Larajin from the Sembia series--she serves both Sune and Hanali). The whole "patron deity" thing is really more about 3E rules than setting.
Faraer 08-21-07, 03:57 AM	is it possible for a player to have more than one patron deity?Power of Faerûn clarifies that 'Most folk in Faerûn embrace (or drift into) primary worship of one deity above -- even if only slightly above -- all others.' Except for priests, the distinction between your most-worshipped god and your second-most-worshipped god is only quantitative, not qualitative, and not everyone sees their most-worshipped god as their 'patron'. As Rinonalyrna, says, the FRCS's emphasis on patrons is a rules artefact.i realize this is all rather unorthodox, but could it be possible? should it be possible?It isn't unorthodox or uncommon; many characters are known to favour two or three deities approximately equally. Mages often worship Mystra alongside another primary god.
Old Sage 08-21-07, 08:44 AM	Even some clerics serve more than one deity (if you need an example, there's Larajin from the Sembia series--she serves both Sune and Hanali).A few other examples:- Salyndra Shaern who is a female half-elf cleric and worships both Oghma and Corellon equally. Myrmeen Lhal, the ranger and ruler of Arabel, worships both Mielikki and Tymora.
MarkHall 08-21-07, 10:43 AM	A few other examples:- Salyndra Shaern who is a female half-elf cleric and worships both Oghma and Corellon equally. Myrmeen Lhal, the ranger and ruler of Arabel, worships both Mielikki and Tymora. Qilue Veladorn? She may be a priest of Elistraee, but she does have a certain element of reverence for Mystra.
Old Sage 08-21-07, 11:53 AM	Re: Qilué . . . her Chosen of Eilistraee title . . . means two things: she's as loyal to Eilistraee as to Mystra (in daily practise, as shown in SILVERFALL, more so), and Eilistraee foresees using her in some great task (i.e. a not-yet-revealed destiny).Qilué was born to a drow female and prominent worshipper of Eilistraee. Elue Shundar, the mortal host of Mystra, died before Mystra/Shundar could carry the seventh child, Qilué, to full term. And so, a new mother had to be found before Mystra's own power consumed the child. Mystra set about looking for another suitable womb for the unborn Qilué, and found Iliryztara Veladorn. Veladorn was also pregnant but her adventuring ways had resulted in the death of her own unborn child -- she was not aware of this however -- and as a result, her own life was threatened because of it. Mystra decided to replace Iliryztara's dead unborn child with Qilué, thus saving both Qilué's and Iliryztara's lives. However, Eilistraee had plans for Iliryztara and her unborn child. Mystra, thus, sought permission from Eilistraee about whether the Goddess of Mysteries could intervene in Veladorn's life. Eilistraee agreed and Qilué was placed in Iliryztara's womb. When Qilué was born, she was born a drow and servant of both Mystra and Eilistraee. This is explained fully in The Seven Sisters.
MarkusTay63 08-21-07, 01:02 PM	So Quilue is a priestess of one god, and the Chosen of another. I think that just about answers the question. ;) Also, Khelben worshipped Mystra, and was also her Chosen, yet went to Arvandor after he died, which also proves that who you worship has no bearing on where you go when you die. Poor Drizzt... he's headed for the Demonweb Pits for sure. :D
MarkHall 08-21-07, 03:10 PM	Also, Khelben worshipped Mystra, and was also her Chosen, yet went to Arvandor after he died, which also proves that who you worship has no bearing on where you go when you die. When did Khelben die?
Old Sage 08-21-07, 09:00 PM	See Steven Schend's incredible Blackstaff novel -- 'tis part of 'The Wizards' series.
The_Shaman 08-22-07, 08:46 AM	I think a lay worshipper would probably seek the favor of several deities, but hold one somewhat above the others, a bit like how patron saints were viewed once. To paraphrase a saying out of Races of the Dragon, respect all gods; worship only one.
MarkusTay63 08-24-07, 02:10 AM	Also. I have been re-reading the old 1e CS and many of the NPCs in there are listed as worshipping more then one god, which would make sense in a pantheon-based culture. There are even priests who get spells from more then one god in those old (cherished) books. When did Khelben die?Sorry. :( That should have been a spoiler... I just assumed everyone knew that already (it's been all over the boards).
Zandilar 08-24-07, 08:52 AM	Heya, Myrmeen Lhal, the ranger and ruler of Arabel, worships both Mielikki and Tymora. This I'm not really sure of. I know there was some deal done between Mielikki and Tymora concerning Myrmeen. I know that Tymora stayed in Arabel during the Time of Troubles largely because of her. Tymora is the deity who grants Myrmeen her ranger spells. I suppose the Lady Lord of Arabel could still worship her former patron - but I don't think that's been definitively stated in a source book. In her novel and short story appearances, I don't think she's ever mentioned either deity.
MarkHall 08-24-07, 11:14 PM	Sorry. :( That should have been a spoiler... I just assumed everyone knew that already (it's been all over the boards). Don't worry about it. Like I said, I don't read a ton of novels. Heck, I've never read the Icewind Dale trilogy (just bought it used, but it's going to have to wait until I've finished my Jack Vance and Poul Anderson).
Gray Richardson 08-25-07, 01:57 PM	If you think about it, choosing a patron deity really has less to do with picking one god to worship above all others, but rather is more about deciding which afterlife you wish to go to when you die. You can worship as many gods as you like, and your feelings toward them may wax and wane with time. But the fundamental choice of patron deity determines who is going to have custody of your soul when you finally kick it. When your soul goes to the Fugue Plane, the rule is that only your patron deity can lay claim to your soul and pick you up from the fugue plane. Deciding on a patron deity is really about buying a ticket to eternity. Some afterlives are a lot less fun than others. Although, pretty much any divine realm will appeal to someone out there. I would personally not care to march eternally in the armies of Bane, or spend even a moment in loviatar's torture chambers, or endure the bitter cold of Auril's realm for all of time. Though I am sure that there are those characters that might crave such fates. Personally, I would choose one of the gods from Brightwater, probably Lliira. Because Brightwater is party-central of the Great Tree, and I think I would be very comfortable with spending my afterlife on that plane. It certainly appeals to me over the dutiful toils assigned to worshipers of Helm or Torm or Ilmater in the House of the Triad. Arvandor is nice, but then again you would be stuck with all those elves... House of Knowledge could also be fun. All those books. And the best thing, the very best thing of all, is there would be time then... all the time I need and all the time I want. Time, time, time. Time enough at last! And if you break your eyeglasses, Gond can make you a new pair. :cool:
MarkusTay63 08-25-07, 02:33 PM	And this is why I think the current version of 'afterlife' in D&D makes NO sese what-so-ever. You are right to want to go to Brightwaters - who wouldn't? Or Arvandor if your more 'green' minded, or any of a dozen other places I could name. Why would ANYONE in their right minds want to go to a plane ruled by an evil god for all eternity? That makes NO sense! Not even an evil perosn wants that, it's just silly. Bad god's afterlives should be a punishment, not a reward; but hey, what do I know? :cool: The other thing I'd like to point out is this - in Prince of Lies, Cyric tricks someone into petitioning him for favor, by posing as another god. So Cyric claims his soul, even though he never once called out to Cyric... I just didn't get THAT at all... :nonono: I think authors should leave the gods be, and designers she keep from statting them out. The more we find out about the gods in D&D, the less sense it all seems to make. It made the most sense back in the good old days when the gods were just mysterious beings that no-one could fathom. Just my take - sorry for going off-topic.
Gray Richardson 08-25-07, 04:47 PM	Well, I have to, respectfully, disagree. It may not make sense to you, but I think makes plenty of sense if you look at it from another vantage point. Did you ever read the Myth of Sisyphus by the existentialist author/philosopher Camus? In the Greek myth, Sisyphus was condemned to Tartarus (for thinking himself more clever than the gods) until he could roll a boulder up to the summit of a mountain. But the boulder was cursed so that before he could make it to the top, the boulder would slip out of his hands and roll all the way down the mountain. I can just imagine Sisyphus's dawning horror, not so much the first time (could have been a fluke), but the second time that the stone escaped from his grasp. :blink: Now you might think this was a particular kind of torture--to perpetually labor at an impossible and ultimately meaningless task--but Camus explains in his essay that it is the very striving itself that gives Sisyphus's toil meaning, and he concludes: "The struggle itself is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy." Not my idea of a happy afterlife, but it seemed to work for Sisyphus. I could see it. Sure, you can say that an afterlife in a plane ruled by an evil god is not your cup of tea. But there are many brands of tea. And enough cups to go around for everyone. There are dutiful people who strive to live by a code in life, and you can imagine that such people would find fulfillment in serving Helm or Torm or Tyr in the afterlife. There are nurturing, caring people who would find comfort with Chauntea nurturing plants and coaxing young saplings to grow tall in the Great Mothers garden. There are certainly those who enjoy pain, both the receiving or giving of it, and of those people I can imagine some will thrill to serve Ilmater, while others will find Loviatar's dungeons to be a paradise. There are those who enjoy striving toward a mutual purpose, they enjoy being in a pecking order, they might like fighting, warfare and exercising tyranny over others. Those fellows will find an idyllic afterlife among the ranks of Bane's band of brothers. No doubt that Hammergrim is a particular kind of paradise for the duergar. While it might seem a kind of hell for some folk, it is aptly suited to those pursuits that delight a duergar. Whether you relish the joy of battle, or like to lose yourself in a good book; whether you like to perform in plays, or prefer to treacherously betray your kindred; whether you like to fight your way to the top of a hierarchy by tooth and nail or by clever machinations and application of your stellar wit; there is a paradise in the realms suited to you. You may find it hard to see why a person would want to spend eternity in certain planes, but just accept that they do. And those people are exactly the kind that gravitate to those gods who offer the kind of afterlife that suits their personality and temperament. In fact, gods serve people as much as people bend their knees to gods. The gods are an expression of hopes, fears and dreams of the people that worship them. And the afterlives those gods offer to their followers are an expression and extension of the philosophies and portfolios that those gods represent. You know, they say no matter how you look or what you are into, there is "someone" out there for everyone. And in the Realms, there is an afterlife for everyone too. :ghosted:
Faraer 09-04-07, 03:25 PM	If you think about it, choosing a patron deity really has less to do with picking one god to worship above all others, but rather is more about deciding which afterlife you wish to go to when you die.Realmslore shows us, though, that people in Faerûn don't think that way. They don't make a deliberate choice about who to worship, often don't have a conscious 'patron' deity at all, don't see religion either in monolatristic terms or in such selfish, personal ones. This is hard to reconcile -- even given the fact that folk know only contradictory and unconfirmed stories and theories of the afterlife -- with the setup introduced in the Avatar novels, which is based on a misconception of Faerûnian religion and should long ago have been discarded along with the other misportrayals in those books.
Gray Richardson 09-04-07, 07:50 PM	Perhaps yes, perhaps no. Certainly the clergy of various deities will use that god's divine realm, including promises of its benefits and wonders, and the horribleness of the afterlives offered by other gods, as a selling point for selecting their god as a patron. That is just human nature. You see that in Earth cultures as well. The afterlife is a big consideration for many humans here on Earth in selecting a patron deity. Don't put it past the clergy of Faerûn to use any less "fire & brimstone" in their own sermons. People may not choose a patron solely for his divine realm any more than employees choose a place to work solely because of the health plan offered. But in the scheme of the metaphysics of Toril, I merely point out that the only thing of true import determined by choosing a patron god is where your soul will go when you die. It is a rule that was probably scribed long ago in the tablets of Ao or in the treaty signed by all the gods at Cynosure at the conclusion of the War of Light and Darkness. The rule (or agreement) serves to regulate the afterlife, preventing gods from fighting over souls, preventing Jergal/Myrkul/Cyric/Kelemvor from keeping souls he was not entitled to, and ensuring first and foremost that the choice of afterlife is vested solely in the mortal making the decision. So, sure, the mortals making the decisions may not give it the due consideration that the choice merits. But it is better than gods making the decision for them. Mortals may make this choice lightly, ill-advisedly, or never give it any conscious thought at all. But there are enough clerics in Faerûn that people have the opportunity to be advised about their choice. You can bet that clerics will preach about it in temples and shrines and advise anyone who will listen. The knowledge is out there to be had. It's up to the individual person how to use that knowledge and to make the choice for himself. And I think that is ultimately a pretty fair and just way to determine a soul's fate. :twocents:
Eccerion 09-05-07, 05:54 PM	"I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks and apostles" - Niccolò Machiavelli. "I'd go to heaven for the scenery, and to hell for the company" - Mark Twain. I remember in an episode of "Black Adder" that a dying man was told about the differances between heaven and hell: "Heaven you see, is for people who enjoy the sort of things that go on in heaven, like playing harps, talking to god, watering potplants" :eek: "Wheras hell you see is for people who enjoy...other things, like torture, adultury, pillage. Give your lands to the crown, and once your dead, you will have the time of your life" :) One persons idea of the perfect after life might be dramatically different then anothers. The vikings idea of heavan was to go to Valhalla where they would spend eterity drinking, *****ing and fighting, not neccessarilly in that order but still it was a very different idea of the perfect afterlife then the christians had. Any person on faerun can freely choose their patron god, and most non divine casters will change theirs many times in the course of their lives, the important thing is that when they die they will have lived their lives according to their current patron gods dogma. So if a follower of Chuntea has been a dillligent farmer and planted and tended crops and cared for the land before the makes the trip, he'll get picked up by the earthmother or one of her servants and taken to the everbountiful harvest that is the afterlife. If the same guy however spent his life torching crops and tipping over cows he'll be in deep doo-doo when he gets to the fuge plain and theres an angry astral dive waiting to hear his explenation, and it had better be a good one or its off to the place they send the false, and anything that makes Devils cringe is something you'll want to keep your soul away from. How devoted a follower of a god is is as varied as it is in the real world, some give reverance to their dieties every day, some occasionaly, some only mention them when they need help. The faerunian worshippers who truly devont themselves wholeheartedly to their gods are the ones who usally enter into the ranks of the divine classes, and they can show that their gods acknowledge their devotion by granting them spells and powers, so as to better serve their patrons in life before they go on to whatever awaits them in the afterlife.