Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Moraser_the_Magnificent 09-24-07, 12:40 AM	So, who do you think will fill the shoes of Mystra? I have an exceptionally hard time believing that it can remain empty. Simbul? Another of the 7 Sisters? Shar? Selune? Azuth?
Arbourean 09-24-07, 12:46 AM	Hopefully no one. It annoys me that whenever the goddess of magic dies, the world changes forever, yet if Shar were to snuff out Lathander, we wouldn't be faced with an eternal night. Treat the Weave like the Balance, something that all gods regardless of alignment maintain.
Zandilar 09-24-07, 12:53 AM	Heya, At this early stage, it sounds like no one will replace Mystra as the Weave has effectively been destroyed. Arcane spell casters everywhere will have to learn another way to tap raw magic. However, I wouldn't put money on anything I've just said. It's too early to be sure, but with Rich Baker's recent blog entry (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=906386), they may just change their minds on the "no Mystra" angle as part of their "course correction". I'm refering to this post (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13860206&postcount=13) specifically in his blog.
MarkusTay63 09-24-07, 02:46 AM	I could live without Mystra, if they replaced her with something better. I certainly don't want to see Mystra 4.0. Maybe Azuth, or even Elminster or the Simbul, but not another one named Mystra. It would just be bad luck at this point. :rolleyes: How about Eilistraee? She's gonna need some new digs now.
Spelldancer 09-24-07, 02:52 AM	You know.. I would not actually mind seeing Isis step up. Though I know it's unlikely, but I've always liked Isis better as a goddess of Magic.
Dark Wizard 09-24-07, 03:21 AM	With all of the Faerunian deities of regular weave magic dead, missing/lost, or imprisoned someone has to pick up some portfolios eventually.
Gray Richardson 09-24-07, 03:35 AM	You know, that is not a bad idea. If the Mulhorandi pantheon is on the verge of merging with the greater Faerūnian pantheon, I could see Isis or Thoth (or both) stepping in to service the magic portfolio. It could be a temporary solution that becomes permanent or leads to a struggle down the line for supremacy over magic.
Gray Richardson 09-24-07, 03:38 AM	The impending destruction of the Weave is part of the in-game explanation of why the magic system is changing with 4E. Either Faerūn will go Weaveless after that, or the Weave will be reconstituted with different rules. It seems like a workable (if radical) solution necessary to accomplish the changeover both in-game and out-of-game. I think I will be okay with the changes when all is said and done. And I am very interested to see how everything shakes out. We know that Mystra invested a portion of herself in her chosen for just such an eventuality. So it is possible that one of her chosen will rise up to take her place. If they don't take up Mystra's mantle you can at least count on them doing their best to clean up and mitigate the fallout from the event. Don't forget that divination is part of magic, so Mystra may have had an inkling that this event was coming, either through her own insight, or by dint of prophecy, or maybe Savras was able to give her a warning of some kind. If she did have some sort of forewarning, she would have prepared and set up contingency plans as best she was able.
Dark Wizard 09-24-07, 03:54 AM	She could have pulled a Mystryl, sacrificed herself to get some major redecorating done and the other deities of magic were in on it.
Fabius Maximus 09-24-07, 06:41 AM	My bet is on Selune. Azuth is thrown into the Astral, so he's out. Savras is gone, Velsharoon is no option. The Simbul is the only chosen besides Alustriel that I can live with, so I hope she stays quasi-mortal.
captaincarot 09-24-07, 07:05 AM	Elminster aumar former prince of athalantar. well if i was Ao i'd do it i could just imagine, it now old el would go mental. definitely not old stoney stuck in the astral karsus.
The_Shaman 09-24-07, 07:20 AM	C... I must have missed something. Where is all of this coming from, and is it canon?
Shuuya 09-24-07, 07:51 AM	Elminster NO.
captaincarot 09-24-07, 07:59 AM	or even elmystra :cool:
Suin Bahhar 09-24-07, 08:33 AM	The chosen of mystra assembling and merging to become the new guardian of the weave. Thats my pet theory as of now. I haven't really seen any hard evidence that the weave is destroyed completely so this could mean it could linger without Mystra in magic heavy areas. BTW: Elminster rocks
Shuuya 09-24-07, 08:45 AM	The chosen of mystra assembling and merging to become the new guardian of the weave. Thats my pet theory as of now. I haven't really seen any hard evidence that the weave is destroyed completely so this could mean it could linger without Mystra in magic heavy areas. BTW: Elminster rocks Wouldn't Spellplague get them? Also Elminster disappeared didn't he? (Unfortunately meaning he's probably going to come back.) The thing I dislike about Elminster is that he's just got plot armour so thick he could beat Cthulhu without even sweating. He's just a Mary Sue, I like the character I just dislike how amazing and perfect he can be and how much plot armour he wears.
GoOrange 09-24-07, 08:57 AM	What about Shar? Will the shadow weave be destroyed as well?
Suin Bahhar 09-24-07, 09:18 AM	Wouldn't Spellplague get them? Also Elminster disappeared didn't he? (Unfortunately meaning he's probably going to come back.) The thing I dislike about Elminster is that he's just got plot armour so thick he could beat Cthulhu without even sweating. He's just a Mary Sue, I like the character I just dislike how amazing and perfect he can be and how much plot armour he wears. I just like highlevel characters who remain to be witty and sensible. A high level mage just really IS that powerfull and resilient to survive the odds thrown against him in most cases.
Fabius Maximus 09-24-07, 10:19 AM	What about Shar? Will the shadow weave be destroyed as well? Since it's the literal shadow of the Weave, it's highly likely.
18DELTA 09-24-07, 11:39 AM	or even elmystra :cool::rofl: :tiphat:
msatran 09-24-07, 11:49 AM	While it might be cute, I think they should go back to Ed's original idea and have Lurue be goddess of magic. ???????? Yeah. That's what I said.
Selvarin 09-24-07, 06:23 PM	1. I want Shar to get knocked on her duff as fit punishment for helping to slay Mystra. Let her precious 'shadow weave' disintegrate as well. And from the chaos...a new view of how magic is handled. It's quite possible that the current Mystra has someone groomed as a back-up just in case things go to Heck in a handbasket. Or perhaps someone else will step in temporarily. Kind of how Waukeen's were handled. Here's a concept: That the Spellplague doesn't slay or drive all wizards mad. Rather, the higher-level you are the more connected you are to the Weave (and Shadow Weave--I'm not leaving that out of the mix!). Of course, it would've been better had this all just been glossed over, with wizards 'always' having access to the 30-level spell system. Just our perceptions haven't noticed till now. :mymy: Which brings up another point...Clerics also have a 30-level spell list in 4e, why not have them go nuts as well? Oh because they aren't attached to the Weave but the Weave can't handle the new rules the same way that...*starts mumbling and muttering*... :twitch:
Zandilar 09-24-07, 08:28 PM	Heya, The impending destruction of the Weave is part of the in-game explanation of why the magic system is changing with 4E. Either Faerūn will go Weaveless after that, or the Weave will be reconstituted with different rules. Hmm... now here's something that I don't think has been raised before. One of the reasons why Mystra was so powerful was because the weave was in everything, and touched everything. If the Weave is destroyed, why hasn't the whole of the Realms followed into oblivion? Also, elves are supposed to be a part of the Weave too... Hmmm.... Didn't they say something about the world becoming mutable, and the sky having a blue veil? I wonder what they're doing with that?
MerrikCale 09-24-07, 08:57 PM	My bet is on Selune. All hail Selune. Would that mean she would no longer be CG? But my feeling is Lord Karsus will be the new God of Magic. So be very afraid
Selvarin 09-24-07, 10:53 PM	She could shift alignment in order for there to be more 'balance', I suppose. Can't say it would be a big whoop unless it was straight to N or LN. And the only problem with Mystra having an inkling of the impending disaster is Shar being the sort to (literally) strike from the dark, and sideways. But we shall see. Perhaps there's a ceremony that the Chosen can do which would bring forth a remaining aspect/avatar of Mystra, born from the silverfire within themselves.
Spelldancer 09-24-07, 11:14 PM	Perhaps I have been pondering this too much... but here is an idea I came up with Lurue is referred as "Selune's Daughter", though they have never said how she was born/created to my knowledge. So.. an idea that has been going around in my head with this talk that Lurue was suppose to be the goddess of magic, according to Greenwood. What if Lurue is actually a spark of Mystrl? The major part of her divinity, that was born from Selune. So as Mystra bites the big one, the fraction that is Mystrl in Lurue reawakens/comes alive/makes herself know because of an ancient divination, and steps up as the goddess of magic. Crazy.. i know.
The WarOverlord 09-25-07, 08:10 AM	Wouldn't Spellplague get them? Also Elminster disappeared didn't he? (Unfortunately meaning he's probably going to come back.) The thing I dislike about Elminster is that he's just got plot armour so thick he could beat Cthulhu without even sweating. He's just a Mary Sue, I like the character I just dislike how amazing and perfect he can be and how much plot armour he wears. Plot armor? Is that like a girl taking the pill, using a IUD, spermicide, the sponge and the couple using a condom and the kid is born "wearing armor"?
Fabius Maximus 09-25-07, 08:48 AM	All hail Selune. Would that mean she would no longer be CG?Well, Midnight was NG, so being neutral is no must. And if Shar grabs for the Shadow Magic portfolio (without the Shadow Weave), the whole thing has to be balanced out. But my feeling is Lord Karsus will be the new God of Magic. So be very afraid Yeah, listen up, I think I smelled something there. :hides:
MarkusTay63 09-25-07, 01:46 PM	Lurue as Goddess of magic would work, especially if she were a fragment of the original Mystryl - I like that concept, very original. :) However, Shar does have a piece of Karsus, so I'm sure she's planning on using that somehow to 'anchor' Mystra's power and take it for herself (since the object was once connected to the Weave, it now has an affinity for it). Now, if you combine those two, and have Shar try to bring the three pieces of Karsus together in order to become the 'supreme' goddess of Realmspace, while Sylune helps Lurue 'rediscover' her lost power, we could have a minor goddess stealing Mystra's power right out from under Shar! How cool would THAT be? :D Didn't they say something about the world becoming mutable, and the sky having a blue veil? I wonder what they're doing with that?Some recent quotes for you - From the Orc king: "...merger of two worlds" From Ed: "We will be learning more about what happened to the 'Abeir' in Abeir-Toril soon..." and from Gencon: "We are moving away from the concept of 'core' vs 'FR' " The maps WILL be VERY differnt in 4e, mark my words. :rolleyes:
Selvarin 09-25-07, 02:38 PM	Some recent quotes for you - From the Orc king: "...merger of two worlds" From Ed: "We will be learning more about what happened to the 'Abeir' in Abeir-Toril soon..." and from Gencon: "We are moving away from the concept of 'core' vs 'FR' " The maps WILL be VERY differnt in 4e, mark my words. :rolleyes: Gee whillickers, will they leave ANYTHING untouched? Aside from shrinking some parts of the map in 3e? Some of the glacier and Anauroch's desert can go away, big deal, but really...
Zandilar 09-25-07, 08:43 PM	Heya, And the only problem with Mystra having an inkling of the impending disaster is Shar being the sort to (literally) strike from the dark, and sideways. Mystra has a very decent portfolio sense when it comes to the Weave, so she would know well in advance that something disastrous was about to happen. What I'd like to know is how Mystra wasn't prepared for Shar's and Cyric's plot. Shar could not have obscured Mystra's weave-sense that completely... So... Maybe Mystra LET herself be killed? But we shall see. Perhaps there's a ceremony that the Chosen can do which would bring forth a remaining aspect/avatar of Mystra, born from the silverfire within themselves. That would be interesting, but I'm not holding my breath. Some recent quotes for you - From the Orc king: "...merger of two worlds" From Ed: "We will be learning more about what happened to the 'Abeir' in Abeir-Toril soon..." and from Gencon: "We are moving away from the concept of 'core' vs 'FR' " The maps WILL be VERY differnt in 4e, mark my words. :rolleyes: :yuck: :raincloud :nonono:
Selvarin 09-25-07, 08:47 PM	Could be, Zandilar, and Mystra doesn't strike me as the sort to not have a back-up somewhere. But if the Chosen (barring Elminster) get fried then... Oh of course, bring back Shandril. She was cool. *hopeful but realistically not holding breath for anything* I'm a little sad now, with the idea of the Realms becoming standardized and roughed-up yet again. (And no, I didn't infer Shandril as a Chosen, but as a wielder of spellfire I was fond of her.)
MerrikCale 09-25-07, 09:54 PM	Oh of course, bring back Shandril. She was cool. We're going to disagree there
Selvarin 09-25-07, 10:35 PM	We're going to disagree there I knew that would get a response. :schemes:
Jacklewump 09-25-07, 11:36 PM	Im kindof rusty on my realmlore here but with the death of mystra and the spellplauge reaking havok on FR in general ...somone somwhere said that magic is going to cast more like psionics...perhaps thats part of the change,with the death of mystra and lots of things in FR going crazy, maybe magic is going to go back to being more personal. Im not sure how accurate this is (its been a while since casting 101). The weave was created so that mortals could access the raw power of arcane magic and not die(which is what possibly happened when mystra died). But if mystra is dead and there isnt (with the info we currently have)a replacement in sight..I wonder how mortals will again be able to cast spells...
captaincarot 09-26-07, 02:29 AM	But if mystra is dead and there isnt (with the info we currently have)a replacement in sight..I wonder how mortals will again be able to cast spells... with a large box of fudge!
Selvarin 09-26-07, 02:37 AM	With the usual mumbo-jumbo that 'magic is all around us'...and with the lid blown off of High Magic (Heck, 30 spell levels = Woo hoo what fun!) then anything goes. Just have to learn it from scratch and rediscover that spells don't necessarily disappear when they're cast, that spells can be memorized in between the traditional 9 levels, there's more granularity, and so on... Hmm. Sheep dip. 100 years would be about right for arcanists and priests alike to rediscover magic and develop the theories and methodology to support how it's learned/accessed...and for arcane universities to spring up and protect the learning of The Art itself. But it still bums me out. I like Halruaa and all the fun stuff. :( Oh well, maybe by then they will have recovered. Still, if they just added 3 more spell levels (instead of increasing them to 30) this may not have been necessary at all.
Todesherr 09-26-07, 03:30 AM	Think it through; it is very likely that there will be no Magic deities...as such it could be interesting...
Selvarin 09-26-07, 03:49 AM	There may not be a primary god of Weave, per se, but there will be deities who consider Magic to be part of their portfolio, at the very least. No more Corellon bowing to Mystra in that area, for example. And I can live with that.
The_Shaman 09-26-07, 08:14 AM	Heya, Mystra has a very decent portfolio sense when it comes to the Weave, so she would know well in advance that something disastrous was about to happen. What I'd like to know is how Mystra wasn't prepared for Shar's and Cyric's plot. Shar could not have obscured Mystra's weave-sense that completely... So... Maybe Mystra LET herself be killed? That's been driving me crazy as well. She is, by herself, a greater deity with almost unlimited power over all magic and knowledge, her personal assistants include two ascended archmagi who were among the greatest ever to have been born, and one of them is the deity of divination, who even has the moniker all-knowing. She has allies within a lot of faiths (especially in a battle with Shar or Cyric, who are almost universally hated), and agents nearly everywhere. Even further, she knew about the Shadow weave and given some spells in the CoV, was planning to combat it - and Shar. It should not even be possible to surprise her, much less practically wrack the weave. And if she were not surprised, she practically has only to will herself be able to use epic spells, as she practically is the Weave. Seriously, this shouldn't happen. Faerun sans the Weave is not a good idea.
MarkusTay63 09-26-07, 10:48 AM	It doesn't need to make sense - she was killed because of a meta-gaming reason; 4th edition. Maybe the other gods will just take turns being the 'god of magic', or perhaps they'll call a temp service. I say 'temp' because whoever takes the job will be killed when 5e comes around. :rolleyes:
Jacklewump 09-26-07, 03:25 PM	perhaps with Mystra's death magic will be more personal..... Mages find a way to cast spells using pure arcane energies without blowing there minds (literally)? Didnt mages cast spells before the weave and mystrl...isnt that where high and low magic came from? I dont remember...its been to long...
Zandilar 09-26-07, 06:27 PM	Heya, Didnt mages cast spells before the weave and mystrl...isnt that where high and low magic came from? I dont remember...its been to long... No, because Mystryl was a part of the setting practically since creation. Elven High Magic is just Circle Magic with another name, IIRC.
Gray Richardson 09-26-07, 08:34 PM	Don't forget that Shar and Cyric are both gods of magic in their own right. Shar governs the Shadow Weave and Cyric governs the school of Illusion. Both Cyric and Shar are also greater gods themselves. Perhaps neither Shar nor Cyric could confound Mystra on their own. However, working together they might have a decent chance. Really, if anyone could pull it off, it should be Cyric. As god of murder, lies, intrigue, deception, illusion and strife, and as an accomplished god-killer, he is uniquely competent to essay Mystra's deicide. Backed up by Shar, cloaked in her shadows and armed with her secrets, Cyric would present a formidable threat to Mystra. And really, as god of secrets, who is to say that Shar did not know a secret or two about Mystra that would allow Cyric to accomplish the deed? In fact, I bet Shar still has a few secrets up her sleeve...
Selvarin 09-26-07, 08:52 PM	Don't forget that Shar and Cyric are both gods of magic in their own right. Shar governs the Shadow Weave and Cyric governs the school of Illusion. Both Cyric and Shar are also greater gods themselves. Perhaps neither Shar nor Cyric could confound Mystra on their own. However, working together they might have a decent chance. Really, if anyone could pull it off, it should be Cyric. As god of murder, lies, intrigue, deception, illusion and strife, and as an accomplished god-killer, he is uniquely competent to essay Mystra's deicide. Backed up by Shar, cloaked in her shadows and armed with her secrets, Cyric would present a formidable threat to Mystra. And really, as god of secrets, who is to say that Shar did not know a secret or two about Mystra that would allow Cyric to accomplish the deed? In fact, I bet Shar still has a few secrets up her sleeve... There won't be a Shadow Weave once the Weave itself is destroyed, therefore she will cease to be a goddess of magic in the strictest sense. So Shar will be unable to back up Cyric magically once the murder happens.
MerrikCale 09-26-07, 10:16 PM	There may not be a primary god of Weave, per se, but there will be deities who consider Magic to be part of their portfolio, at the very least. No more Corellon bowing to Mystra in that area, for example. And I can live with that. As could I.
Jacklewump 09-26-07, 10:44 PM	darkness does not exist without light.... Without the weave for the shadow weave to 'hide' in what happens? Then again Shar is smart and I don't think she would go into something that would kill her in the end
Meldread 09-26-07, 11:18 PM	Gray- That is my reasoning as well. When you put the two deities together you have a combination that could realistically kill Mystra. They both hate her immensely, so they both have motives, and not knowing what other circumstances surrounded Mystra at the time it is certainly believable. darkness does not exist without light.... That is not true. Darkness only exists in the absence of light. Therefore, in order for it to exist light must not be present. If it is the best you can hope for is a pale shadow.
MarkusTay63 09-26-07, 11:57 PM	If it is the best you can hope for is a pale shadow.Pale Shadow... What a fitting epithet to describe the 'new' Realms when compared to the old... :cool:
Selvarin 09-27-07, 12:16 AM	darkness does not exist without light.... Without the weave for the shadow weave to 'hide' in what happens? Then again Shar is smart and I don't think she would go into something that would kill her in the end A lot of 'smart' people and deities think they've planned for everything. Karsus 'the momentary god', as an example. In Shar's case, a great flaw for her is pride. She doesn't think she can fail, only her followers do that. Plus, ultimately she's a nhillist. Her goal is to destroy everything and take it into the darkness. If she aids Cyric in getting Mystra slain then likely she thinks she can take over the Weave via her Shadow Weave, but *poof* surprise...It cancels the Shadow Weave and she never knew how to work the Weave itself. So the Weave, etc., dissolves. And Cyric's no help in this matter, just the knife used to eliminate a mutual hated rival.
Jacklewump 09-27-07, 11:34 AM	I guess with craziness happening in the realms with the death of mystra....Cyric has finally succeeded in being the god of murder and deception...after the Cyrinishad incident Apparently the god of murder strife and intrigue has succeeded.......he caused Mystra to be murdered which caused the spellplague, a large source of strife throughout the realms. I would also assume he had a hand in the god of Helm using lies and deception. You know...I used to not like Cyric but WOW hes doing a damn find job if you ask me...... GO CYRIC!!!
buzzard 09-27-07, 01:54 PM	That's been driving me crazy as well. She is, by herself, a greater deity with almost unlimited power over all magic and knowledge, her personal assistants include two ascended archmagi who were among the greatest ever to have been born, and one of them is the deity of divination, who even has the moniker all-knowing. She has allies within a lot of faiths (especially in a battle with Shar or Cyric, who are almost universally hated), and agents nearly everywhere. Even further, she knew about the Shadow weave and given some spells in the CoV, was planning to combat it - and Shar. It should not even be possible to surprise her, much less practically wrack the weave. And if she were not surprised, she practically has only to will herself be able to use epic spells, as she practically is the Weave. Seriously, this shouldn't happen. Faerun sans the Weave is not a good idea. If we go by the rules in Deities and Demigods, Shar has the ability to block the portfolio sense of any deity of equal rank or lower, since both Mystra and Shar are divine rank 18, Shar can nullify Mystra's portfolio sense. Basically, she never knew what hit her. In Shar's case, a great flaw for her is pride. She doesn't think she can fail, only her followers do that. Actually Shar is portrayed as unemotional, if she loses she's like "oh, well...", if she wins she's like "oh, well..." too. There's plenty of time for her. There won't be a Shadow Weave once the Weave itself is destroyed, therefore she will cease to be a goddess of magic in the strictest sense. So Shar will be unable to back up Cyric magically once the murder happens. Actually, according to "Magic of Faerūn" the Shadow Weave should remain unaffected, but I could see the realms authors dropping the concept.
Lord Karsus 09-27-07, 06:56 PM	But my feeling is Lord Karsus will be the new God of Magic. So be very afraid -I'm not volunteering for that job, but if I got the call... -Merrik, if I am tapped, you want to be my PR manager? Yeah, listen up, I think I smelled something there. :hides: -I just sprayed some Febreeze. That's that good smell. ;)
Selvarin 09-27-07, 07:13 PM	If we go by the rules in Deities and Demigods, Shar has the ability to block the portfolio sense of any deity of equal rank or lower, since both Mystra and Shar are divine rank 18, Shar can nullify Mystra's portfolio sense. Basically, she never knew what hit her. Actually Shar is portrayed as unemotional, if she loses she's like "oh, well...", if she wins she's like "oh, well..." too. There's plenty of time for her. Actually, according to "Magic of Faerūn" the Shadow Weave should remain unaffected, but I could see the realms authors dropping the concept. You can appear unemotional and yet feel quite superior or confident of everything, can you not? She's been planning things for a long time, she's highly motivated, so whether she shows her thoughts for the benefit of the readers or not doesn't say much. Then again one can be quite 'Zen' about things, even when ruining those around them. The Shadow Weave itself is tied to the Weave, anchored to it in a sense. If there's nothing to anchor to, how does it remain in place? The Shadow Weave certainly won't replace the Weave, and designers have hinted at not having special rules governing magic within the Realms. Besides, the Shadow Weave doesn't need to exist in order to have shadow adepts or shadowcasters, their powers can be explained away through other means. So the concept can fade away quite literally when the Weave does.
Selvarin 09-27-07, 07:23 PM	-I'm not volunteering for that job, but if I got the call... -Merrik, if I am tapped, you want to be my PR manager? -I just sprayed some Febreeze. That's that good smell. ;) I got it on good authority that the new Mystra will actually be 'Banjo' from The Order of the Stick comic series. :P Let us sing the praises! :rimshot: :dancin: :ayyyy!:
Wintermute27 09-27-07, 08:37 PM	Actually, according to "Magic of Faerūn" the Shadow Weave should remain unaffected, but I could see the realms authors dropping the concept. A quote from Ed Greenwood (taken from the Candlekeep Forums) about the fate of the Shadow Weave if the Weave were to be destroyed: (this reply is in reference to whether or not Shar can grant the use of Spellfire to her followers, but the information is applicable to our discussion here) "To those who argue that Shar could kill Mystra or destroy the Weave: those two things are the same, as Mystra IS the Weave. No mortal yet knows what would then happen, but it should be obvious that as an echo of the Weave, the Shadow Weave itself would also be destroyed (or would collapse). Remember, the Weave isn’t the energies of magic. The Weave is magic: that is, a system of harnessing those energies by means of an existing body of spells." Based on this knowledge (from the man who created Forgotten Realms) once Mystra dies, an entirely new system of harnessing magical energies would be needed, as well as new spells.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-27-07, 09:03 PM	Don't forget that Shar and Cyric are both gods of magic in their own right. Shar governs the Shadow Weave and Cyric governs the school of Illusion. Ed has said Mystra is the Goddess of the entire Weave, and that Shar just happens to control access to the Weave's shadow. So isn't it a bit of a leap to say Shar governs the Shadow Weave? She uses it, but isn't in control of it. Disclaimer: I accept what Ed says on this subject as canon.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-27-07, 09:06 PM	That is not true. Darkness only exists in the absence of light. Therefore, in order for it to exist light must not be present. If it is the best you can hope for is a pale shadow. Shadows can't exist without light, though, which is part of the reason why I don't quite get why Shar is so enamored with them.
MerrikCale 09-27-07, 09:19 PM	-Merrik, if I am tapped, you want to be my PR manager? sure, if it will get me a lot of babes
Selvarin 09-27-07, 09:20 PM	Shadows can't exist without light, though, which is part of the reason why I don't quite get why Shar is so enamored with them. Shar wants to bring everything and everyone back to the darkness that existed before creation--that is, nothingness. And either she understands the ramifications for herself if she ultimately succeeds *or* she can't comprehend that. So, until then she will continue to extinguish that which exists, and that which keeps her from her goals. So I won't be surprised if the consequences of Mystra's murder surprises her. But oh well, she loses the Shadow Weave and again becomes just the goddess of darkness, etc. etc....with one more grudge to nurse.
Wintermute27 09-27-07, 10:02 PM	Here is the end of the quote I mentioned above: "Various TSR and WotC designers and fiction writers and I have discussed these matters many times over the years, to hammer out agreement on the specifics of what Mystra can and can’t do, what Shar can and can’t do, and what the Weave and the Shadow Weave can and can’t do. Please remember two things: divine situations in the Realms aren’t static; there will inevitably be “developments” in the struggle between Shar and Mystra. And as the creator of Shar, Mystra, AND the Realms, I’m in a position to see things more clearly than anyone else." (This was posted on 15 March 2006.) It is possible that in his conversations about the limitations of the Weave as it stands right now, it was determined that the Weave cannot handle the 4th Edition magic system, so a replacement would be needed. This means removing the current system (destroy the Weave) and then put something else in it's place. I think there will be a new god(ess) of magic, but I don't believe that (S)he will fill the position in the same way that Mystra did. From the description of The Year of Blue Fire, I think it's safe to say that there will be a good number of new deities born from the chaos of that year (and the years to come).
Selvarin 09-28-07, 12:20 AM	Ummmmmm no. They've already made it clear they wish to downsize the pantheon(s) and demote a few in the process. So while there may be a new Mystra (Mystra Jr.?) there will be a few less and fewer of Intermediate/ Lesser rank. Otherwise there's no disagreement here.
Lord Karsus 09-28-07, 12:31 AM	sure, if it will get me a lot of babes -Sure, why not? I can't endorse extramarital affairs, though.
Zandilar 09-28-07, 12:40 AM	Heya, Ed has said Mystra is the Goddess of the entire Weave, and that Shar just happens to control access to the Weave's shadow. So isn't it a bit of a leap to say Shar governs the Shadow Weave? She uses it, but isn't in control of it. There's even in print evidence to support you, Rin (hope you don't mind me shortening your screen name that way! :)). Shar doesn't have the Shadow Weave listed as part of her portfolio. She only has the SDA Deny Shadow Weave. To be generous, she can control who has and who doesn't have access to the Shadow Weave (and I believe she can summon creatures/people who have the Shadow Weave Magic Feat), but she can't do much else with it. She also is effected by the Shadow Weave for her own magic... I wonder what will happen to her when it goes bye bye along with the Weave? I think Shar might have just sliced her foot off with her own chakram.
ZinFeir 09-28-07, 04:37 AM	Remember, in the new History of the Realms book, it says alot of the deities plans imploded unless they were greater deities. So this probably kicked alot of delities back to the Material Plane. My vote is for Elmenster, only because he has more levels than most other gods.
Selvarin 09-28-07, 04:47 AM	If some people dislike Cyric, Midnight/Mystra, or Kelemvor, then others would really dislike such a turn of events. I'd never buy a game book that included Elminster among the deity listings, no more than if Drizzt had become a member of the Seldarine. It would merely solidify the claims of munchkinism and, in any event, it would do a disservice to both characters.
buzzard 09-28-07, 07:39 AM	A quote from Ed Greenwood (taken from the Candlekeep Forums) about the fate of the Shadow Weave if the Weave were to be destroyed: (this reply is in reference to whether or not Shar can grant the use of Spellfire to her followers, but the information is applicable to our discussion here) "To those who argue that Shar could kill Mystra or destroy the Weave: those two things are the same, as Mystra IS the Weave. No mortal yet knows what would then happen, but it should be obvious that as an echo of the Weave, the Shadow Weave itself would also be destroyed (or would collapse). Remember, the Weave isn’t the energies of magic. The Weave is magic: that is, a system of harnessing those energies by means of an existing body of spells." Based on this knowledge (from the man who created Forgotten Realms) once Mystra dies, an entirely new system of harnessing magical energies would be needed, as well as new spells. Ed Greenwood is not canon except in products with his name on it. (ie: "Power of Faerūn"). The fact that he has another interpretation of the Realms is irrelevant, you could follow his vision of the setting but it doesn't make it canon. ---- And answering the question about Shar being a deity of magic. Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun considers Shar to be a deity of magic in the introduction to "Magic of Faerūn".
Zandilar 09-28-07, 09:39 AM	Heya, Ed Greenwood is not canon except in products with his name on it. (ie: "Power of Faerūn"). The fact that he has another interpretation of the Realms is irrelevant, you could follow his vision of the setting but it doesn't make it canon. Actually, as part of his contract with first TSR and now WotC, anything Ed Greenwood says/writes about the Realms is canon unless contradicted in an in-print source. So that means all his postings over at Candlekeep should be considered canon (unless contradicted in an in-print source, or if he specifically says it's not).
buzzard 09-28-07, 10:50 AM	Heya, Actually, as part of his contract with first TSR and now WotC, anything Ed Greenwood says/writes about the Realms is canon unless contradicted in an in-print source. So that means all his postings over at Candlekeep should be considered canon (unless contradicted in an in-print source, or if he specifically says it's not). Well, an in-print source states that the Shadow Weave wouldn't be destroyed if the Weave is gone.
GothicDan 09-28-07, 01:21 PM	And another in-print source implies that it would. I believe it's one of the Mega-Adventure modules.
Selvarin 09-28-07, 01:21 PM	Well let's see...Buzzard would be correct except Magic of Faerun was a 2001 3.0 FR product. Ed's words indicated he spoke with several writers since then, and as his statement on the issue is March 2006 I would say that Ed is correct on this. (Who knew I'd be the one using Ed's words to correct someone else? Usually I'm the one saying the opposite.) The understanding of the Shadow Weave is a little different now, and it makes sense because the Shadow Weave isn't a fully independent functioning thing. It's connected to the Weave and in essence exists where the Weave itself does not: in the spaces between. Yes, it can be rule-zeroed. Yes, it's remotely possible the 4e FR designers could let it remain (although that would go against what's been said already concerning core magic vs. some separate system in the Realms), etc. etc. etc.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-28-07, 03:31 PM	Heya, There's even in print evidence to support you, Rin (hope you don't mind me shortening your screen name that way! :)). Not at all!:) Shar doesn't have the Shadow Weave listed as part of her portfolio. She only has the SDA Deny Shadow Weave. To be generous, she can control who has and who doesn't have access to the Shadow Weave (and I believe she can summon creatures/people who have the Shadow Weave Magic Feat), but she can't do much else with it. She also is effected by the Shadow Weave for her own magic... I wonder what will happen to her when it goes bye bye along with the Weave? I think Shar might have just sliced her foot off with her own chakram. I agree with that, and thank you for providing the extra information.
MerrikCale 09-29-07, 09:21 AM	-Sure, why not? I can't endorse extramarital affairs, though. look at you getting all Lawful good on me, good for you
Lord Karsus 09-29-07, 07:23 PM	look at you getting all Lawful good on me, good for you -Well, it's not exactly that. There's no wrath like a woman scorned, and I already have enough enemies. I don't need Mrs. Merrik to add to that list.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-29-07, 08:36 PM	-Well, it's not exactly that. There's no wrath like a woman scorned, and I already have enough enemies. I don't need Mrs. Merrik to add to that list. Cherchez la femme...
Zandilar 09-29-07, 08:46 PM	Heya, Well, an in-print source states that the Shadow Weave wouldn't be destroyed if the Weave is gone. Unfortunately I didn't realize until I read your reply that I'd left out a crucial word... My post should have read... "Actually, as part of his contract with first TSR and now WotC, anything Ed Greenwood says/writes about the Realms is canon unless contradicted in a later in-print source."
Fabius Maximus 09-30-07, 08:14 AM	Well, an in-print source states that the Shadow Weave wouldn't be destroyed if the Weave is gone. Really? Where can I find it? Would be rather illogical if it were true.
Suin Bahhar 09-30-07, 08:44 AM	I believe it's in the FR superadventure module Shadowdale: Scouring of the Weave...
MerrikCale 09-30-07, 10:13 PM	-Well, it's not exactly that. There's no wrath like a woman scorned, and I already have enough enemies. I don't need Mrs. Merrik to add to that list. and here I thought you weren't afraid of anything.
Lord Karsus 09-30-07, 11:43 PM	and here I thought you weren't afraid of anything. -Well, I didn't say I was afraid. I just said that I don't need any more enemies.
18DELTA 10-01-07, 06:39 PM	What if Mystra, does a bane on us.:rolleyes: She uses her chosen to store her essence, then spontaneously reforms.;)
Selvarin 10-01-07, 06:47 PM	I thought about that a few dozen posts back. She essentially stores power within her Chosen, what better way to bring her back and possibly eliminate a few of them at the same time.
GothicDan 10-01-07, 06:50 PM	I doubt it. They already basically told us the Chosen are going to suffer a bad fate - and using them logically to hold Mystra's power and resurrect her would make too much sense.
Selvarin 10-01-07, 06:59 PM	Yep.
Dark Wizard 10-01-07, 08:02 PM	Logically she should have recommended one or two head out to the planes (altnerate worlds, realities, planar pockets), as far away as they can manage (which they can usually do pretty well). It ensures that something of her power will return someday, perhaps in a hundred years. Naw, this plot is too dumb since I could come up with it using my mundane intelligence. A deity's godly intelligence doesn't require plans so simple. :rolleyes:
Selvarin 10-01-07, 08:13 PM	Yep, an aspect or avatar lounging somewhere...waiting for the call to come on back and grab the reins of power, etc. etc... I know what happened. Really. Mystra was watching TV (she has a subscription to Celestial Satellite Service) and decided she needed to go to the little ladies' room. When she came back she discovered her rear-view projection crystal screen went dark--very dark. She was a little tipsy from drinking Elysium Schnapps, so instead of checking the rear-view projector she went straight to the crystal screen to tap on it...only it wasn't the screen that was dark. then Cyric comes up from behind, mugs her blind, and whacks her with his sword for good measure. He means to hand the Weave over to Shar (it was in Mystra's purse) but all unholy heck breaks loose. The whole place starts falling apart. So Cyric and Shar streak past Velsharoon and Azuth, which ticks Azzy off to no end. "Hey you kids get off our lawn!" he screams, to which Cyric echoes back "It won't be a lawn or anything in a few moments, see ya don't wanna be ya!"... And pooferooni, Dweomerheart (aka The Most Happenest Magic Dive of the Outer Planes) goes off the side like a stilt-house built on the side of a hill in Southern California after a mudslide.
GothicDan 10-01-07, 08:17 PM	One day the Gods will be portrayed properly. .... Probably not. :( PS: I demand more divine parodies, plz.
Lord Karsus 10-01-07, 08:20 PM	-Yeah, probably not. They're not omniscient, but they're not dumb either.
Lord_Madrigan 10-01-07, 10:59 PM	Your New got of Magic is ......VOLO:confused: This it WoTC it could Happen. :weep:
Lord Karsus 10-01-07, 11:30 PM	-I always knew he had it in him. :)
Dark Wizard 10-01-07, 11:36 PM	God of Magic AND Food, Wine, Tavern and Inn Critics. Overgod status for sure.
Selvarin 10-01-07, 11:48 PM	No....it'll be Banjo from Order of the Stick. Banjo! He will be your magical overload--er, overlord. Submit or suffer the sound of him playing... Banjo Banjo Banjo! :headexplo
The WarOverlord 10-02-07, 08:19 AM	That's been driving me crazy as well. She is, by herself, a greater deity with almost unlimited power over all magic and knowledge, her personal assistants include two ascended archmagi who were among the greatest ever to have been born, and one of them is the deity of divination, who even has the moniker all-knowing. She has allies within a lot of faiths (especially in a battle with Shar or Cyric, who are almost universally hated), and agents nearly everywhere. Even further, she knew about the Shadow weave and given some spells in the CoV, was planning to combat it - and Shar. It should not even be possible to surprise her, much less practically wrack the weave. And if she were not surprised, she practically has only to will herself be able to use epic spells, as she practically is the Weave. Seriously, this shouldn't happen. Faerun sans the Weave is not a good idea. Mystra was just a Mediator given her authoority as the Interface of the flow of magic by the Overgodling that made all the godlings that is has governing the Realmspace it is in control of, so it only seems like she is "too Powerful" Thing is that the "Weave" is a Ao instlled thing...it has to be considering godling magic and Divine Magic, and even Native Psionics are effected with the fluctuations in the fabric of the Weave, but since it seems to be a part of Mystra herself then is can be somewhat manipulated in the struggle between the godlings for there plays on power. I still think it is not a big deal as the Power Sources are still there (godlings for divine spells as well as godly power, Psionice from within, Raw ether from the Hyper-Astral for Magic). Let the Mages relearn their Art using the "Ether" directly and/or let Dwarfs and GNomes start using "Steampuch" gothic Machines to compensate for the firepower of magic with Giiant Walkers and steam cannons, and such....lol (Oh and Make the Moon start falling to the World while we are at it)
Selvarin 10-02-07, 11:51 AM	If it does it'll probably slam into Evermeet by the sound of it...
Lord Karsus 10-02-07, 12:18 PM	-Dammit...
gomeztoo 10-02-07, 03:23 PM	I expect Shar won't be it, but she would have my vote. An evil goddess of magic, now there is a refreshing change...
Alediran 10-02-07, 03:37 PM	I expect Shar won't be it, but she would have my vote. An evil goddess of magic, now there is a refreshing change... Not at all, it's similar to Warcraft's corrupting Arcane Magic that comes from the Twisting Nether (the home plane of demons). The only thing that an evil god of magic accomplishes is a lack of good arcane spellcasters (and that is my favorite kind of character)
Rauric 10-02-07, 04:13 PM	Don't forget that Shar and Cyric are both gods of magic in their own right. Shar governs the Shadow Weave and Cyric governs the school of Illusion. Both Cyric and Shar are also greater gods themselves. Perhaps neither Shar nor Cyric could confound Mystra on their own. However, working together they might have a decent chance. Really, if anyone could pull it off, it should be Cyric. As god of murder, lies, intrigue, deception, illusion and strife, and as an accomplished god-killer, he is uniquely competent to essay Mystra's deicide. Backed up by Shar, cloaked in her shadows and armed with her secrets, Cyric would present a formidable threat to Mystra. And really, as god of secrets, who is to say that Shar did not know a secret or two about Mystra that would allow Cyric to accomplish the deed? In fact, I bet Shar still has a few secrets up her sleeve... But will Cyric have some of those portfolios when Mask steals some of them away? MWAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Maybe Cyric after having Illusion and Intrigue stolen from him gets easily manipulated by the goddess of sorrow and loss. Maybe in his depression and anger he will be suseptible to the ploys of the Mistress Of Night.
GothicDan 10-02-07, 04:15 PM	And Dragonlance has had an evil god of magic forever (Nuitari). And in the WoD, magic being corrupting is old hat (Koldunism -> Kuppala). And Greyhawk's had Wee Jas, a deity of magic and death who's always had a 'dark' feel to her. And Set's a patron of evil magic. And Hecate, I believe, is listed as CE in 3E, and she's a goddess of magic. Mystryl was CN. Mystra 1 was LN. Mystra 2 was NG. What the heck is refreshing about having ANOTHER dark magic god, people?
gomeztoo 10-02-07, 04:21 PM	Refreshing for FR though. The good guys always had Mystra's support. An evil magic goddess that is bound by the divine laws to grant magic to good casters might be interesting. It feel that, in the Realms at least, after chaos, law, and good, it's now evil's turn at the wheel. Who cares about what other settings do, anyway?
Alediran 10-02-07, 04:27 PM	Refreshing for FR though. The good guys always had Mystra's support. An evil magic goddess that is bound by the divine laws to grant magic to good casters might be interesting. It feel that, in the Realms at least, after chaos, law, and good, it's now evil's turn at the wheel. Who cares about what other settings do, anyway? FR was always a setting that have those kinds of differences, it's what makes it the greatest of the fantasy settings. And the realms do have evil gods of magic (Cyric, Shar, Velsharoon)
GothicDan 10-02-07, 04:29 PM	Good had Mystra's support for a very short time between the Time of Troubles and the Trial of Cyric the Mad. Then AO basically stomped that out. i have no clue where you're getting the idea that Good "always had" Mystra's support. And I sure as heck care what other settings/games do, because if they all portray the same thing, that sure as heck cuts down on the variety. I don't want the campaign setting to be one variation of the same thing after another.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-02-07, 06:57 PM	Refreshing for FR though. The good guys always had Mystra's support. Mystra supports evil people, too. She's had evil Chosen in the past, and in many of Ed Greenwood's novels, you'll read about evil wizards who worship Mystra.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-02-07, 06:58 PM	And I sure as heck care what other settings/games do, because if they all portray the same thing, that sure as heck cuts down on the variety. I don't want the campaign setting to be one variation of the same thing after another. Too bad WotC seems to think every setting should be post-apocalyptic.:rolleyes: I liked how Faerun was different from all those other post-cataclysmic settings.
Selvarin 10-02-07, 07:06 PM	WotC painted themselves into a corner when they included bits on the 'future' (if that's what it can be called) of the Realms in the GHotR. All the god deaths, etc...If they left the last half-page off then they could've stepped a toe into the water, got bit up to the kneecap, and change their plans accordingly.
Gray Richardson 10-02-07, 07:40 PM	Too bad WotC seems to think every setting should be post-apocalyptic.:rolleyes: I liked how Faerun was different from all those other post-cataclysmic settings.I don't get the feeling that the new setting will be post-apocalyptic. Any more than North America became "post-apocalyptic" after the events of 9/11. I gather that the coming "Realms Shaking Event" may shake things up a little but, but that everything will go back to life as normal when it is all said and done. The impending RSE is supposed to explain why magic works differently going forward with the upcoming rules of 4e. It may not even affect the vast majority of the population of Faerūn. They might notice a few flashy lights in the sky, but for those people who don't deal with magic in their daily lives, it is hard to say how they will be impacted at all. :)
Selvarin 10-02-07, 07:45 PM	Tell it to the elves--by the sound of it their homeland's going to be ocean floor real estate.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-02-07, 07:45 PM	Sorry Gray, but it's hard for me to be confident that everything will be "back to normal" when the GHotR ends with (paraphrased) "Sages in the centuries to come mark this year [1385] as the end of the old world and the terrible beginning of the new." Now it's possible that's all just hype, and WotC will say "Gotcha! It wasn't as bad as we led you to believe it was", but I doubt it. It seems fairly clear from the wording in GHotR that the world will be very different at least, if not darker (and there are clues pointing to that conclusion as well).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-02-07, 07:47 PM	Tell it to the elves--by the sound of it their homeland's going to be ocean floor real estate. Just out of curiosity, where are some of you hearing this? I haven't seen this news, myself.
Selvarin 10-02-07, 07:57 PM	It won't be that straightforward, if something so blunt came out the boards would be in a clammor even more. It's a connect-the-dots thing. I forget who, perhaps Meldread, whoever started going down the list of changes happening. In the case of the elves, in a relatively short period of time the Retreat's ended, the elves take Myth Drannor back, more starts coming out about Lamruil's new kingdom. Also, the Tree of Souls is planted in Myth Drannor. In short, the elven race is repositioning itself in the west. At the same time it's been mentioned more than once that the land of Evermeet itself was shaped by magic. As a highly magical place (especially one connected to Arvandor), it will be very susceptible to whatever happens with the Weave. It's a lot of conjecture but considering talk of the merging of two worlds, etc., I can't help but think Evermeet's going down. Not many sacred cows left in the Realms that aren't going to be turned over like a boat once the 4e FRCS starts printing. One could argue that Evermeet will be spared the worst because it has a special connection to Arvandor and Corellon(being a Greater Power) will help it and the other elven power centers weather the upcoming storm. But with the Tree of Souls being planted in Myth Drannor there's nothing to keep the designers from crossing it off. Not sure why they would but then again no one expected Evereska and Evermeet to get their bells rung within years of each other, either.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-02-07, 08:10 PM	Good points, all--I wouldn't be surprised if WotC ditched Evermeet. Thanks for the explanation.:)
Selvarin 10-02-07, 08:15 PM	At this point I'd settle for a mini-tsunami that roughs up the shore settlements there but otherwise leaves them alone. Really, sometimes it's like places get destroyed in the Realms merely so there's a new excuse for adventurers to go there. And now that Myth Drannor is a living, breathing elven realm again...hmm.
RanielK 10-02-07, 08:37 PM	darkness does not exist without light.... Without the weave for the shadow weave to 'hide' in what happens? Then again Shar is smart and I don't think she would go into something that would kill her in the end Yeah, a friend based his Epic level FR campaign off this concept. In his campaign, Mystra basically suicided and thus the weave evaporated, causing the shadow weave to fall. This weakened Shar just as Selune and others moved in for the kill. No more Shar. To add insult to injury, Mystra had pulled a Mystral and set up a "clone" to reconstitute herself. Conviluted and counterintuitive in my mind. I'm just surprised I missed this coming. I guess that's what I get for waiting to play through the Cormyr and Shadowdale mods.
Kieran_Immerdusk 10-02-07, 08:51 PM	Hopefully WOTC will have Midnight/Mystra reform, incorporating both Weave and Shadow Weave into her. The influx of so much of Shar's darkness could change her alignment to N (and placate the folks that have complained about her alignment since 2E). They could use any number of explanations as to how, but my thought is that they could say that Mystra's last act as she was dying was to use the energy released from the weave tearing AND from the dissolution of the shadow weave to reincarnate her in her new form. She may very well have hid for a time to recover her strength, thus leading to the impression that there was no god/goddess of magic...
Dark Wizard 10-02-07, 09:12 PM	I don't get the feeling that the new setting will be post-apocalyptic. Any more than North America became "post-apocalyptic" after the events of 9/11. I gather that the coming "Realms Shaking Event" may shake things up a little but, but that everything will go back to life as normal when it is all said and done. The impending RSE is supposed to explain why magic works differently going forward with the upcoming rules of 4e. It may not even affect the vast majority of the population of Faerūn. They might notice a few flashy lights in the sky, but for those people who don't deal with magic in their daily lives, it is hard to say how they will be impacted at all. :) What they do with it remains to be seen, but from the tone and hints in GHotR and the Orc King it's not a mere physical disaster. A more comparable real world (albeit sci-fi) possibility to what happened in Faerun is if North America got hit by a giant, persistent EMP and now people will have to gradually learn to use weird bio-mechanical tech to get by.
Alediran 10-03-07, 08:16 AM	but for those people who don't deal with magic in their daily lives, it is hard to say how they will be impacted at all. :) And that's the problem with it. The entire party I DM is composed of elves and not a single one is without at least a Spell-Like Ability (and he is even going to start studying the arcane ways after the second chapter ends). This means that if I where to accept what WotC gives us my party should be erased from the face of Faerūn while they are at their prime (the oldest is Alediran, a sun elf, who is only 127 years old)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-03-07, 01:59 PM	Hopefully WOTC will have Midnight/Mystra reform, incorporating both Weave and Shadow Weave into her. According to Ed Greenwood (and apparently, one of the new adventure books), Mystra is the goddess of the entire Weave--it's just that Shar has access to the Shadow Weave and can deny its use to mortals. That's right from the creator of the setting.
arcanist supreme 10-04-07, 11:18 AM	Death in the realms is not always a permanent thing. I forgot where I read that from. Most assumed Bane was dead. I personally never really bought the retcon of him using his son as a vessel. Still, WOTC can weave whatever they wish. I do hope Mystra makes a comeback in time. I can't believe Shar/Cyric could assassinate her in DweomerHeart. This is so ridiculous. Still, it was a done deed. Mystra and her predecessors are always making preparations ahead of time - like a good wizard, I do hope she has staged some kind of comeback. I do hope as DvR 18, she is able to hide her intentions on magic well enough from Shar (or whoever) she has plans for it and come out all the stronger. I must say I am still shocked. Gotta get GHotR soon, I really need to know what happened.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-04-07, 01:40 PM	deleted
Dark Wizard 10-05-07, 02:03 AM	Rich Baker recently made a reply on the Ask the Designers thread that might be related to this discussion: Q. What were the old bad ideas? I'm not eager to answer this question, because I can't do it without bashing the work of other designers and authors. I'll pick on one of my own: the Shadow Weave. It's fiddly, it's complex, and it's really intended to provide DMs with a fig leaf of explanation for a check on Mystra's otherwise absolute power in the setting. With a different take on magic and the goddess of magic in the setting, the necessity of a Shadow Weave diminishes drastically. It's something we can live without. There are several other glaring examples (at least to me) but I'm not picking on any others in this forum. (Okay, so aside from another shot at the supposedly omnipotent Mystra, which I have to agree, he does have some basis for that point. Though to me it was never a that vital to the setting and after the Trial of Cyric I felt the gods resolved the issue. ) He said "With a different take on magic and the goddess of magic in the setting, the necessity of a Shadow Weave diminishes drastically." I suppose we could assume (an a tenuous assumption at best) that someone will replace Mystra as the new goddess of magic.
Storm_Silverhand 10-05-07, 02:36 AM	Heya, He said "With a different take on magic and the goddess of magic in the setting, the necessity of a Shadow Weave diminishes drastically." I suppose we could assume (an a tenuous assumption at best) that someone will replace Mystra as the new goddess of magic. Yeah, I saw that... I don't know what to think... A part of me is excited that I may be proven wrong, while another part of me is dreading it since, in all likelihood, it will be a Neutral deity without the same flavour as LN Mystra or CN Mystyl, because the continuity will be broken - especially as it seems many of Mystra's Chosen will be gone. :( So I'm vacillating towards "I'll pick up the new FRCS next year" at the moment... but I want to hear/see more before I set that in stone. (I feel manic/depressive about all this... darn it... it's not fun.)
SgtAnjay 10-05-07, 04:10 AM	That this points to creating a continuation of the history of magic and the goddess who represents it, rather than just a destruction of the old, is hopefull news. But....ok. The Weave and goddess of magic are destroyed; great catastrophies change the world forever afterward. Magic, and the goddess of magic, are reimagined. In the aftermath, the arcane works differently, and its casters forced to adjust. I'm talking about Karsus's Folly. Why use a rehash to start the new edition?? The details may be very different, but the concepts are the same.
Fabius Maximus 10-05-07, 07:04 AM	Does that mean the Shadow Weave will either cease to exist, too, or at least will be altered? Maybe my guess wasn't that far off... ;)
Alediran 10-05-07, 08:37 AM	Does that mean the Shadow Weave will either cease to exist, too, or at least will be altered? Maybe my guess wasn't that far off... ;) Yes, that's what Richard implied with his post. It was good to read that at the end they think the SW was a bad idea.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-05-07, 01:50 PM	Rich Baker recently made a reply on the Ask the Designers thread that might be related to this discussion: (Okay, so aside from another shot at the supposedly omnipotent Mystra, which I have to agree, he does have some basis for that point. Though to me it was never a that vital to the setting and after the Trial of Cyric I felt the gods resolved the issue. ) I think Mr. Baker's attitude towards Mystra goes a long way to explain the new direction the Realms is taken. Doesn't he know that Mystra's Chosen are ALREADY there as a check on the goddess's power?
GothicDan 10-05-07, 02:39 PM	Yeah. The designers' thoughts on the Chosen, Mystra, the Weave, etc., are pretty much all the proof I need. I don't care how beautiful the future books are, how many 15 year olds are playing it, or heck, even if it's otherwise 'good' lore - it's NOT the Realms any more. Apparently no one ever actually talked to Ed about all of this to figure out how the dynamics of the Realms work (as hinted at in the second quote in my sig). Or they never cared. Either way, the Realms is dead. WotC Land will soon arise.
Fabius Maximus 10-05-07, 07:02 PM	The Chosen are there for checking Mystra's power? That doesn't make sense. Also, Ed Greenwood is not GOD. So stop "worshipping" him.
Faraer 10-05-07, 07:27 PM	The Chosen are there for checking Mystra's power? That doesn't make sense.Of course they are, in part, in as far as mortals know about such godly matters. If you didn't even know that, you're in a poor position to judge what sense it makes.
GothicDan 10-05-07, 07:39 PM	Also, Ed Greenwood is not GOD. So stop "worshipping" him. EDIT: Nevermind. There's no point.
Selvarin 10-05-07, 08:25 PM	That is somewhat refreshing. Perhaps the new goddess of magic will have a role more akin to Azuth's: a patron of wizards but not an all-control being.
GothicDan 10-05-07, 08:35 PM	More like Thoth? Also: some people think from Rich's most recent replies that Shar will hold magic. I'm not convinced. I'd love to see Azuth come back and convene a council of magic gods, still. Sort of an "Alexandria" of arcana. Or Azuth as the Wizard/Scientist and a child of Shar/Selune as the Artist, so to speak, in an equal partnership. Oh, screw it all. I'm going back to the LN Mystra. ;)
Old Sage 10-05-07, 08:47 PM	The Chosen are there for checking Mystra's power? That doesn't make sense.How doesn't it make sense? I would suggest you read most of the Realmslore we have on Mystra's Chosen, including Ed's thoughts stored at Candlekeep. You'll likely develop a better understanding of the whole concept. Also, Ed Greenwood is not GOD. So stop "worshipping" him.Where is there worship? Some, more than others, simply recognise and appreciate the higher level of professionalism and quality that Ed brings to the Realmslore -- perhaps moreso than any other designer to ever work the Realms. That's not worship. That's just fact.
Selvarin 10-05-07, 08:57 PM	Thoth? Not a bad idea although the actual alignment is something I'm undecided on. I don't want a magic deity as unconcerned with the world as Boccob, I still want one with a little 'life' left in him/her. But regardless of alignment the responsibilities would be the same: 1) Encouraging (mostly) responsible learning of the Art; 2) Refinement and innovation of the Art; 3) Protection of the Weave (in whatever form it may be); Something like that. ~*~ Actually, going back to the LN Mystra would be better and more preferable to Shar becoming the new Goddess of the Weave. For me to accept that, Shar would have to change fudamentally, and I can't see the designers changing her from a nhillist NE destroyer to something less sinister. ~*~ The problem with the council of wizard deities is...well, it depends on what you mean. A council of magic-related deities--Azuth, Baravar, Corellon, etc.--would be okay. Then the new Mystra could be like "The Chairman of the Board"--A bit like Frank Sinatra, but with less booze and expletives. ;) Another thought: Perhaps Mystra's temples should have a nameplate over the doors saying "Worship of [current occupant's name here] permitted here". It's getting to be like Bane's was after Cyric took over, where some people said they worshipped the office of Bane instead of the actual deity.
GothicDan 10-05-07, 09:02 PM	The problem with the council of wizard deities is...well, it depends on what you mean. A council of magic-related deities--Azuth, Baravar, Corellon, etc.--would be okay. Then the new Mystra could be like "The Chairman of the Board"--A bit like Frank Sinatra, but with less booze and expletives. That's exactly what I thought. :) The Seldarine already sort of functions this way, with Corellon as "The Chairman." Perhaps Mystra's temples should have a nameplate over the doors saying "Worship of [current occupant's name here] permitted here". It's getting to be like Bane's was after Cyric took over, where some people said they worshipped the office of Bane instead of the actual deity. That actually makes a lot of sense given the portfolios - if you think of tyranny as a sort of Social Darwinism thing (much as I loathe that phrase - Darwin would pop a capillary if he heard people calling it that).
Selvarin 10-05-07, 09:10 PM	It could work. With that in place they'd have to find another rationale for why magic changes in the 5th and 6th editions other than killing Mystra. Your other comment begs the question: Does Mystra deserve a Darwin award? What if she merely forgot to leave the lights on in Dweomerheart and tripped down the stairs in the dark? (Deities have died from dumber things.) Cyric and Shar may be taking too much credit for this.
GothicDan 10-05-07, 09:25 PM	Or maybe she committed suicide to avoid what WotC was going to do to FR. Savras: Mistress, there's, uh, something you should see... Mystra: WTFSTFUBBQ! */wrist*
Selvarin 10-05-07, 09:35 PM	Or maybe Shar left a banana peel in front of the stairs and Mystra fell for it (literally). But really, despite being a demipower how could Savras NOT see it coming? He has to be good for something, if that isn't it I don't know what it could be. Oh well, time for the other deities to pitch in and pull the remnants of the Weave back in.
GothicDan 10-05-07, 09:47 PM	I think we should form the new magic council. First alliance call: Gray's making fun of me in another thread. :(
goldomark 10-05-07, 09:49 PM	Doesn't he know that Mystra's Chosen are ALREADY there as a check on the goddess's power? I don't think designers know much of the fluff of DnD, atleast not as much as the fans, and they care about it even less. Ironic. You should listen to the last podcast on monsters. The lack of basic info they have on the Guardinals, and just their attitude on the matter is quite reveling.
Selvarin 10-05-07, 10:18 PM	I suppose we can forcibly vote him off the island, GothicDan. Set him on a rubber dinghy with an extra paddle way out there. Heh. Goldomark, what their frame of mind is more about the monsters that we encounter (and fight) as opposed to the ones which we might summon or ally with. And with the death of the Great Wheel we don't necessarily need celestial beings of every specific alignment. Not in the same way. Still, we'll see what happens there after the MM.
Dark Wizard 10-05-07, 11:11 PM	Nope, that ain't what I said. I said the story of her effort to claim the portfolio of magic was wrapped up; I didn't say Shar won. Of course, it may suit Shar's purposes to have no one in charge of the Weave, even if she didn't grab hold of it herself. (Why on earth would we go to the trouble of addressing the problems we perceive with Mystra, only to put another goddess in her place? I'd ask 'How dumb do you think we are?' except I've got a fair idea what the answer would be.) I guess I assumed wrong.
GothicDan 10-05-07, 11:15 PM	Well, the fact that they perceived a problem in the first place seems a little silly to me. But I'm glad I didn't misread Rich's quote, at least - and I'm glad Shar isn't in charge of the Weave. But, it also largely emphasizes the fact that, apparently, there will BE no deity of the Weave - if there IS one.
Selvarin 10-05-07, 11:17 PM	I guess I assumed wrong. Heh.
Fabius Maximus 10-06-07, 08:35 AM	Of course they are, in part, in as far as mortals know about such godly matters. If you didn't even know that, you're in a poor position to judge what sense it makes. Well, you could start by explaining it to me. I don't want to dig through tons of text just to find this tiny bit of information. My impression of the chosen was that they were a safeguard for Mystra's revival, like during the ToT.
The WarOverlord 10-06-07, 08:58 AM	That is somewhat refreshing. Perhaps the new goddess of magic will have a role more akin to Azuth's: a patron of wizards but not an all-control being. Huh? What is wrong with being the consiousness that maintains and governs the Weave? The only alternative is to ditch the "interface" that keeps the Local Wizards from directly pulling their power from the real Source of magic that Mystra/the Weave simple acts like a Coffee Filter to not allow certain spells or abilities to take place in the Forgotten Realm. It's a Specific job for a Specific Controling Factor that either needs a godling overseeing it or it just shouldn't be there and the Local Wizards can just tap directly into the ether and tap unlimited power to do 10th, 11th,12th,13th and beyond Spells and The Elves will get their High Magic Back.
GothicDan 10-06-07, 09:31 AM	Well, you could start by explaining it to me. I don't want to dig through tons of text just to find this tiny bit of information. My impression of the chosen was that they were a safeguard for Mystra's revival, like during the ToT. I believe the theory is presented in the Seven Sisters. Without the Chosen around to each 'hold' some of Mystra's divine essence, the Weave is powerful enough - and its casters numerous enough - to have pushed her over into Overgod status. So AO commanded her (while he still had the power, I assume) to distribute her power into Chosen. And, as you said, they DO function in part to safeguard the Weave in case of her destruction, since if the Weave was permanently destroyed, we already know what (according to Ed, who detailed the Chose, et. al) would happen to the world - eroding entropy, chaos, and slow disintegration of life. The Weave is not just 'magic' - in its original conception (after which all of these mechanics and lore bits are based), it's also vitality. Not "Positive Energy/Healing," but sort of like what the fifth element (Quintessence) is in some traditions. It's vibrancy, it's ENERGY.
Selvarin 10-06-07, 01:58 PM	Huh? What is wrong with being the consiousness that maintains and governs the Weave? The only alternative is to ditch the "interface" that keeps the Local Wizards from directly pulling their power from the real Source of magic that Mystra/the Weave simple acts like a Coffee Filter to not allow certain spells or abilities to take place in the Forgotten Realm. It's a Specific job for a Specific Controling Factor that either needs a godling overseeing it or it just shouldn't be there and the Local Wizards can just tap directly into the ether and tap unlimited power to do 10th, 11th,12th,13th and beyond Spells and The Elves will get their High Magic Back. Welllll considering most of my elven characters worship Corellon I never dug the idea of Mystra being the preeminent deity of magic, as it (in my mind) overshadows part of his role. It's the management of perception, really. And besides that I'm sick of TSR/WotC killing off Mystra to explain every change to the D&D magic system. It's the easy-out, so if (for example) some of that power is instead given over to other deities to share the load--instead of Chosen--several things are taken care of at once. (GothicDan, does this look a little more like a local campaign solution to the "Mystra's All Powerful But We Don't Want to Kill Her" question?) But we are switching to 4th Edition so what we think of as epic magic, etc., will be changing.
Faraer 10-06-07, 02:41 PM	Well, you could start by explaining it to me. I don't want to dig through tons of text just to find this tiny bit of information.First mentioned in the first and still probably the main sourcebook that discusses what the Chosen are, The Seven Sisters:Others believe that she was ordered to lessen her own power by a greater authority. To minimize the destruction this divestment would visit on the Realms, they say, she decided to apportion it out to mortals rather than letting it be dissipated and gone forever (weakening magic throughout Toril) or letting it be given to other divine beings who, emboldened, might misuse it.Further discussed by Ed online.My impression of the chosen was that they were a safeguard for Mystra's revival, like during the ToT.Yes, partly that too, as seen in Seven Sisters again, the Shadow of the Avatar books and other novels. I probably sounded more abrupt than I meant, but really, if you don't know about something, the sensible response is 'I don't understand', not 'That doesn't make sense'.
chewa29 10-06-07, 07:44 PM	ok wizards wack mystra and dont replace her with another god of magic. will we get a vestige of mystra that is as powerfull as agrater god and a ghost weave with azuth as a rouge god of wizards and mages and all the gods appaled at any thing arcane.that would make things interesting.::rolleyes:
Dark Wizard 10-06-07, 07:45 PM	I'd be up for that. Ghost Weave!
SgtAnjay 10-06-07, 09:06 PM	Ah, the inevitable rule of variants: Once you introduce one, more are certain to appear. We had shadow weave, we'll introduce the ghost weave....how about a space weave? a giant space weave? sabre-toothed giant space weave? the carnivorous flying giant space weave("a regrettable if understandable line of inquiry")? the fire-breathing phase doppelganger giant space weave? and the miniature giant space weave, of course.... ah, spelljammer. we hardly knew ye.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-06-07, 11:05 PM	I don't think designers know much of the fluff of DnD, atleast not as much as the fans, and they care about it even less. Ironic. You should listen to the last podcast on monsters. The lack of basic info they have on the Guardinals, and just their attitude on the matter is quite reveling. So I've heard, goldomark, so I've heard...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-06-07, 11:07 PM	Well, the fact that they perceived a problem in the first place seems a little silly to me. Indeed.:rolleyes: I didn't think Rich Baker meant to say Shar took over the Weave, myself. But that surprised me a bit, since Shar is the FR design team's favorite deity.
Selvarin 10-06-07, 11:14 PM	Indeed.:rolleyes: I didn't think Rich Baker meant to say Shar took over the Weave, myself. But that surprised me a bit, since Shar is the FR design team's favorite deity. Yep, Shar is responsible for everything except eating babies--that's still a job for kobolds, apparently. :D http://archive.gamespy.com/comics/dorktower/images/ads/koboldsad.gif Sorry, had to.
Markustay 10-07-07, 12:21 AM	I have also uncovered evidence that Shar may have been involved in the theft of my Tricycle. :(
Selvarin 10-07-07, 12:31 AM	Shar ran my kitty-cat over with that trike! :weep:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-07-07, 01:48 AM	These 4E changes are coming out to due to the influence of Shar.:weep:
Selvarin 10-07-07, 02:25 AM	I'd like Shar more if she wasn't such a sagnabitty nhillist. Leave it to CE types like Cyric. I mean really, maybe she isn't into taking everything back to oblivion. Maybe she's just ticked because Selune shnooked her comb AND leaves the night light on! Siblings can be so vicious when they have to share living quarters. :eek:
Belorin 10-07-07, 04:45 AM	Ah, the inevitable rule of variants: Once you introduce one, more are certain to appear. We had shadow weave, we'll introduce the ghost weave....how about a space weave? a giant space weave? sabre-toothed giant space weave? the carnivorous flying giant space weave("a regrettable if understandable line of inquiry")? the fire-breathing phase doppelganger giant space weave? and the miniature giant space weave, of course.... ah, spelljammer. we hardly knew ye. Spelljammer:weep: Bel
Selvarin 10-07-07, 04:51 AM	Perhaps we should nominate the Giant Space Hamster as our next 'Mystra'. "All hail the Furred Might of the Consummate Master of Magic!"... Please give carrots when the tithe plate passes around. ;)
The WarOverlord 10-07-07, 08:59 AM	Welllll considering most of my elven characters worship Corellon I never dug the idea of Mystra being the preeminent deity of magic, as it (in my mind) overshadows part of his role. It's the management of perception, really. And besides that I'm sick of TSR/WotC killing off Mystra to explain every change to the D&D magic system. It's the easy-out, so if (for example) some of that power is instead given over to other deities to share the load--instead of Chosen--several things are taken care of at once. (GothicDan, does this look a little more like a local campaign solution to the "Mystra's All Powerful But We Don't Want to Kill Her" question?) But we are switching to 4th Edition so what we think of as epic magic, etc., will be changing. She isn't a goddess of magic, she is the concoiusness of the Weave, the interface between magic's Source and the Forgotten Realms and as such she does control not only what magic can be cast in the Realms via Spell casters but also controls the kind of magic Sorcerers, Clerics, and even Avatars of godlings can cast in the Realm...but is not a "goddess of magic". but yeah the Elf god would need permission to use a certain spell in the Realms from Mystra (direct or implied) But with her dead and if and when the Waeve collapses the Shadow weave will go with it as the Shadow Weave occupoes the space between the strands of the Weave and once both are gone magic can be tapped directly from the "Ether" for Mages and Sourcers for those that learn how to do it without the "Crutch" that was the Weave or still be granted by goddlings with both High Magic and 10th, 11th, 12th,13th level and beyond spells being availible with the governer of the Weave and the Weave gone (assuming they actually follow everything previously written on how the Weave and Shadow Weave is supposed to be interconnected to each other) All the dead gods and the lost of the Weave can be a good thing... And I personally feel the Chosen of any godling has outlived their usefulness and people that can't be self reliant and self dependent instead of following a religion like brain washed and brain dead "zombies" are better off people. (Of course this raises the question about who collects the dead of the Dead gods?)
Selvarin 10-07-07, 01:35 PM	When the Weave goes all bets are off. Whether a new Weave is created or something else, either way that'll be the new magic system and people will still seek boons from the various gods of magic for their help. And if they don't bring out a new Mystra next year they'll pop one out eventually, magically reformed from the remainder of the original Weave but with a toned-down position in the world. The other question is a good point. Whether the gods have souls, and what happened to all the souls of the faithful that were scattered with the dissolving of their god's domain. Personally I like to think the souls are funneled back into the living world, to be reborn or suffer as ghosts of old haunts. Of course that is just a personal thing, the designers will probably leave it unanswered.
Markustay 10-07-07, 02:40 PM	If the Simbul gets the job, can we call it the 'Hair weave'? :D :rimshot:
Dark Wizard 10-07-07, 04:42 PM	Perhaps we should nominate the Giant Space Hamster as our next 'Mystra'. "All hail the Furred Might of the Consummate Master of Magic!"... Please give carrots when the tithe plate passes around. ;) Boo for Hamster of Magic.
Selvarin 10-07-07, 06:00 PM	Heh, that's what they said about giant space hampsters in Spelljammer.
meto30 10-09-07, 05:35 PM	I'm not doing any serious comtemplation, but.. As long as we ignore his behavior, isn't Ao in perfect position to replace Mystra? The Overgod could directly control the Weave, which is THE most important mechnasim of Aber-Toril, and with it maintain firm control. But I guess he wouldn't do that in his sensible mind. That would mean direct intervention by the overgod, which looks like the very thing he is avoiding.
Selvarin 10-09-07, 08:03 PM	Exactly. Ao just oversees the gods and referees, he wouldn't do something like that. Just like he wouldn't start handling the portfolio of Nature if Silvanus died, although he might put a boot in someone's behind to take on the responsibility if no one was in-line for it.
Keahi19 10-10-07, 06:04 PM	Well lets hope it all makes sense in the end. Unless the creators are going to lead us towards oblivion and completely ruin D&D. It's possible. Who knows.
MaskedOne 10-10-07, 07:09 PM	I'm hoping for another reincarnation of Mystra or that the death was in part faked. I'm not betting on it because Baker and/or the current design team seem to have a bias but I can hope. That or I can hope for an excessive backlash against this setup and and a FRCG version 4.5 very shortly after the one for 4.0.
Storm_Silverhand 10-10-07, 07:48 PM	Heya, I'm hoping for another reincarnation of Mystra or that the death was in part faked. I'm not betting on it because Baker and/or the current design team seem to have a bias but I can hope. That or I can hope for an excessive backlash against this setup and and a FRCG version 4.5 very shortly after the one for 4.0. Rich Baker has pretty much stated quite bluntly that there will be no new Mystra. (They went to the trouble of killing her and the Weave to correct problems they perceived with her, they're not about to turn around and undo that.) (Personally, I hate this change to the Realms.)
Selvarin 10-10-07, 08:52 PM	Hmm? I thought the question of a goddess of magic was still open, merely that there won't be a Mystra as we knew her. Not the (percieved) ultra-powerful goddess of the Weave, etc...otherwise it would make as much sense as, oh, a Faerunian pantheon without a sun god (which is being fixed).
Storm_Silverhand 10-10-07, 09:14 PM	Heya, Hmm? I thought the question of a goddess of magic was still open, merely that there won't be a Mystra as we knew her. Not the (percieved) ultra-powerful goddess of the Weave, etc...otherwise it would make as much sense as, oh, a Faerunian pantheon without a sun god (which is being fixed). Yes, but that wasn't what I was saying. MaskedOne was hoping that there'd be a new Mystra, or that her death was faked, and she'd come back. Rich Baker has been most emphatic that this is not going to happen. A new magic deity is quite likely. I personally hope they retain "Magic is Female" when they do, but I really am not holding out much hope.
Ramenth 10-10-07, 11:24 PM	Indeed.:rolleyes: I didn't think Rich Baker meant to say Shar took over the Weave, myself. But that surprised me a bit, since Shar is the FR design team's favorite deity. Which is because share is awesome. No; seriously. The design team's probably Sharrans. Light knows they seem to be trying to become an actual religion. Either that or some new emo band is stealing D&D Iconery. Edit: I just... don't understand WoTC's reasoning behind these changes. Yeah, most things that are being changed needed to be done in some way... But this is using a sledge hammer, where a needle would've sufficied. You don't need to tear down the house just to fix one broken window.
Keahi19 10-11-07, 12:22 AM	Actually you know what would be neat? If they made it so that Shar attempted to retake and recreate the Weave and the Weave itself became an entity on it's own. Ergo no god creates the Weave, it just "Is" as it were. I think that would be a good way of avoiding the whole issue. And.... they are not really going to worship Shar are they? And I thought Cyric was there favorite.
Selvarin 10-11-07, 12:25 AM	Fair enough, Storm. And likely it will be another goddess...hopefully not a Chosen, although I can think of one or two candidates I wouldn't mind.
Keahi19 10-11-07, 12:28 AM	Are my posts showing up?
Storm_Silverhand 10-11-07, 03:07 AM	Heya, Actually you know what would be neat? If they made it so that Shar attempted to retake and recreate the Weave and the Weave itself became an entity on it's own. Ergo no god creates the Weave, it just "Is" as it were. I think that would be a good way of avoiding the whole issue. Well that is what Mystra (and the previous two incarnations) is (were). She's the personification/embodiment of the Weave, the heart, mind, and soul so to speak. Mystryl didn't create the Weave, Selune and Shar created Mystryl/the Weave. I don't know why we all call the Weave an "it" when it really is female. ;)
Keahi19 10-11-07, 03:39 AM	Well yeah she is female. Or was before she died anyways. But, that digresses. I still vote for Gond to recreate the Weave and turn it into another tool. But, anyways. I meant no more personification. Or something, I don't know how they are going to make magic viable again.
Alediran 10-11-07, 08:23 AM	Well yeah she is female. Or was before she died anyways. But, that digresses. I still vote for Gond to recreate the Weave and turn it into another tool. But, anyways. I meant no more personification. Or something, I don't know how they are going to make magic viable again. Gond never, he hates magic because he feels that it cuts his power because there isn't much mundane technology in the realms (I hope this will continue to happen during the 4ed realms).
Keahi19 10-11-07, 10:13 AM	Uhhh since when has Gond hated magic? He hates Talos because he destroys his equipment, but he doesn't hate magic. I think you need to relook at how Gond sees the world. Gond is basically the Industrial Revolution mindset. Magic is a tool to help your invention. He's the factory worker to this worlds artisan. Gnomes wouldn't use magic in their machines if they thought that Gond didn't like magic. Look at alot of technology in the realms made from Gond, it includes magic in it. (Lantan is an exception) As for technology, with magic gone it's impossible (And another stupid mistake that if the writers make I'll quit) that some cultures will not start to become technologically capable. I personally like Renesciance technology. And with no fire spells to use until the Weave is recreated or whatever, people are going to turn to what works. And guess what, technology is going to still work. Cause all the gnomes have to do is remove the magic parts with mechanical know-how (Which they have) and voila, that thing works again. So yeah magic will be important when it returns, but I see technology returning as well. It's how the world worked, the Medieval period couldn't last forever. And if they throw everything into a tizzy into the Dark Ages. Well another mistake.
MaskedOne 10-11-07, 10:15 AM	Heya, Rich Baker has pretty much stated quite bluntly that there will be no new Mystra. (They went to the trouble of killing her and the Weave to correct problems they perceived with her, they're not about to turn around and undo that.) (Personally, I hate this change to the Realms.) Details are mutable yet and its a while till August. I'm holding a faint hope that they'll change their minds. Whether they do so happily or not is a wholly different concern. Problem is I don't expect a sufficient threat to their sales to force the issue so I'm pretty much out of luck.
Alediran 10-11-07, 10:50 AM	Uhhh since when has Gond hated magic? He hates Talos because he destroys his equipment, but he doesn't hate magic. I think you need to relook at how Gond sees the world. Gond is basically the Industrial Revolution mindset. Magic is a tool to help your invention. He's the factory worker to this worlds artisan. Did you read Crucible?, he basically gives Cyric some constructs powered by souls, to hunt anybody in Zhentil Keep who isn't a cyricist, and he gives them to prove that technology can defeat magic. He felt that the mortals interest in magic made him less important in the daily lives of them.
Keahi19 10-11-07, 10:57 AM	Thats a single book with Cyric in it (Ergo inherintly flawed) and it sounds really really bad to be honest about it. I look at source books (Which there are clues in dozens) and that really sounds out of charecter as he's a workaholic, him even talking to Cyric would have to allow Cyric to go into the Halls of Knowledge, which would royally **** off Oghma. Also the verbage doesn't sound like Gond either. And many of Gond's weapons, tools, inventions use magic as an intergral part of their construction, which makes that action make even less sense. If that book is canon it's seriously flawed. I could write pages on what's wrong and how out of charecter that is. I have Crucible on a very small list of books I am never reading because they are extremelly flawed. I can see where you are coming from, but that book is obviously ok lets not be PC and use flawed, lets just say it's "wrong" period. I wouldn't use that as a book for charecter.
Alediran 10-11-07, 12:16 PM	I never liked that book anyway. I just qouted it as an example. What I remember is that Gond went to Cyric's realm to give him those constructs. And Cyric did went too to Oghma's realm.
Karsus the Mad 10-13-07, 08:31 AM	Uhhh since when has Gond hated magic? He doesn't. F&P, under Gond. Some in the church of Mystra oppose the Wonderbringer for holding technology over the Art, but in truth Gond views magic as simply another tool by which he can create new devices.
Lord Karsus 10-13-07, 01:21 PM	-You know, I never liked the idea of there being deities responsible for specific schools of magic, but I've been doing some thinking. Rather than a new Mystra, it would be interesting to have some kind of 'council' of lesser deities that embody different schools of magic that, together, embody some sort of new deity of magic, much like Hanali Celanil, Aerdrie Faenya, and Sehanine Moonbow are all seperate and distinct deities, but (supposedly) they all make up Angharradh.
Zsych 10-13-07, 02:03 PM	I'd prefer a council of Chosen(demi-gods) sustaining the Weave. Makes things more interesting :) Although I think that whatever will be maintaining the Weave now, it won't have a mind of its own. I think they are taking down the goddess who can control everyone's magic use.
Lord Karsus 10-13-07, 03:07 PM	I'd prefer a council of Chosen(demi-gods) sustaining the Weave. Makes things more interesting :) -Perhaps they should be ascended mortals? Not necessarily Chosen, but ordinary, ascended mages. -I don't like that idea, but at the same time, I do.
Arbourean 10-13-07, 03:39 PM	Gond builds those soul-trapping constructs for Cyric in Prince of Lies and he said he wants to show that technology can do as much as magic can. He's also neutral, so good and evil doesn't come into play.
MaskedOne 10-13-07, 03:42 PM	Although I think that whatever will be maintaining the Weave now, it won't have a mind of its own. I think they are taking down the goddess who can control everyone's magic use. That's what Baker is claiming and barring supreme backlash probably how it'll go. Part of why I'm annoyed, they've already demonstrated that there are bypasses. It would have been child's play to introduce or further explore a couple traditions that bypass the Weave as rare and strange magics preserving the freedom that 3.X provided with the concept of raw magic (which regardless of how fanatical my fondness off Mystra is, I approve of that freedom) without taking out Mystra. I dislike the murder of interesting concepts (at least I think of her as such) as a means of disillusioning people who don't pay attention.