Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chanmanm8 03-12-07, 11:15 AM	I don't have the book, but was wondering about an epic spell from the book (both for possible in gaming, and just for curiosity in general). SPOILERS IN PLOT BELOW Near the END of the novel, the Simbul is battling various Outcast/Former Archdevils (Nergal being the one who is holding Elminster Hostage for use against Asmodeus). Anyways, she calls out to Asmodeus at one point stating shed make a deal with him: to ensure she could get Elminster back untainted and unharmed. In return, she would destroy a dozen or so devils of his choice (it seems she hears his laughter across the plane as other entities flee from fear of him...but I don't recall him ACTUALLY saying anything). Skip forward, she's single-handedly ripped through several powerful devils and finally reaches Nergal, but it seems that Asmodeus is about to kill both her and Elminster. On the side, the novel covers that Mystra is giving some kind of epic spell to Halaster and tells him when to cast it. It seems the epic spell somehow stuns Asmodeus and allows her to pull Elminster and The Simbul to safety...and that Asmodeus would seem to not remember anything of this event. ***END of Spoiler*** What do you think this spell would be written as in terms of the Epic Spell Rules (regardless of it being allowed or not)...what would you say its function specifically was (since I CAN'T remember what happened actually...I may be incorrect in the summary above)... And why did Mystra have Halaster learn the spell and cast it...because: a) Why would she teach such a potent spell to an insane Evil Alignment caster like him and b) not cast it herself ***I'm going to repost this in the Epic Forums Section in the Generic D&D Forums*** Thanks!!
Chanmanm8 03-12-07, 11:32 AM	I found something that answered a small part of my question: Triton Has everyone forgotten Halaster. He has successfully charged into Hell. Staved off Khelben and the other Chosen of Mystra. Never been defeated by the Host Tower, Red Wizards, or the Cult of the Dragon in repeated attempts. Not to mention that he controls, runs, and maintains the truest dungeon in the known universe. And for those who have been messen' with him. Mystra cured his insanity on page 204 Elminster in Hell . As for heroes don't downplay Drizzt. He has defeated many very powerful evil beings. He may lose in a head to head battle with a powerful mage, but is much to cunning to stand out in the open. But even given this. I still would must fear El. Multi-classed, cunning as hell, and he has Mystra and the Simbul for girlfriends. The dude must not only be super powerful, but hung like a horse.
Karsus the Mad 03-12-07, 12:31 PM	I would say it uses the delude and compel seeds, but that's as far as my speculation can go. The situation seemed too arbitrarily contrived to be even remotely translated into game mechanics, to me at least. It was story, not a game, thus mechanics won't do it justice:)
The_Shaman 03-12-07, 01:08 PM	Wait, there's something I want to ask. Why should Mystra bother about epic spells? Mystra is the one who has banned high magic because she deemed mortal wizards too irresponsible to wield them. However, there's nothing to say that she herself, or other deities who have her favor, can't do it. Given that Ioulaum's longevity is said to be an epic-version of a 10th level spell, one can only wonder what Lady M could do with an empowered lvl 11 spell I'd say it would take her getting royally ****** and the invocation: "Okay, you smart-assed "expletive," "expletive" "expletive of a "expletive", you've "expletive" "expletive" really "expletive" done it this time. EAT HIGH THAUMATURGY, "expletive"!!! That sounds like a full-round action at best, even if she's using the (dum-dum-dum! Why do people think she's been keeping herself neutral good?) Words of Creation.
Chanmanm8 03-12-07, 01:18 PM	Wait, there's something I want to ask. Why should Mystra bother about epic spells? Mystra is the one who has banned high magic because she deemed mortal wizards too irresponsible to wield them. However, there's nothing to say that she herself, or other deities who have her favor, can't do it. Given that Ioulaum's longevity is said to be an epic-version of a 10th level spell, one can only wonder what Lady M could do with an empowered lvl 11 spell I'd say it would take her getting royally ****** and the invocation: "Okay, you smart-assed "expletive," "expletive" "expletive of a "expletive", you've "expletive" "expletive" really "expletive" done it this time. EAT HIGH THAUMATURGY, "expletive"!!! That sounds like a full-round action at best, even if she's using the (dum-dum-dum! Why do people think she's been keeping herself neutral good?) Words of Creation. She banned epic spells above 10th level after the catastrophic event due to Karsus making the one and only 12th level spell. She didn't ban epic spells completely. Even so, she can still SORT OF prevent entities from using such spells by temporarily blocking their access to the Weave. I believe that in the Lost Empires of Faerun Supplement that discusses this stuff a bit more, it is roughly mentioned that she also allowed former True Epic Spells that were 11th Level to be converted via the 3.0 System (which why some examples of spells were re written in that supplement...like Proctiv's Move Mountain, Iouloums Longevity i think...and a few others).
MarkusTay63 03-12-07, 01:18 PM	To be honest with you, I got a totally different twist on what occurred. The 'power' she gave to Halaster was to literally 'rip' the insanity from his own head and use it against someone else. Asmodeus was about to cast a spell, and Hal slams him with 'pure insanity' launched from his own mind. Being a god, this only stuns Asmodeus for a moment before he recovers, but it was long enough for Mystra to do her thing before Asy remembered what he was doing. In the process, Halaster's mind was 'cleansed'. At least that is how I saw it happen.
Chanmanm8 03-12-07, 01:22 PM	To be honest with you, I got a totally different twist on what occurred. The 'power' she gave to Halaster was to literally 'rip' the insanity from his own head and use it against someone else. Asmodeus was about to cast a spell, and Hal slams him with 'pure insanity' launched from his own mind. Being a god, this only stuns Asmodeus for a moment before he recovers, but it was long enough for Mystra to do her thing before Asy remembered what he was doing. In the process, Halaster's mind was 'cleansed'. At least that is how I saw it happen. Ah yes...that was it. As I stated above, I don't have the book anymore and couldn't really remember...which I stated above as well. Thanks for the clarification. ALSO: Another comment to The_Shaman It was stated in the 2e books and the 3e supplement I mentioned that Mystra frequently reminds the people of Faerun of the consequences of the obsession of magic by reminding them of the Karsus' actions that lead to the Time of No Magic.
Karsus the Mad 03-12-07, 01:53 PM	She banned epic spells above 10th level after the catastrophic event due to Karsus making the one and only 12th level spell. She didn't ban epic spells completely. Even so, she can still SORT OF prevent entities from using such spells by temporarily blocking their access to the Weave. I believe that in the Lost Empires of Faerun Supplement that discusses this stuff a bit more, it is roughly mentioned that she also allowed former True Epic Spells that were 11th Level to be converted via the 3.0 System (which why some examples of spells were re written in that supplement...like Proctiv's Move Mountain, Iouloums Longevity i think...and a few others). She banned true level spells of 10th+. Her Ban has never applied to Epic Spells, even those that duplicate true 10th+ effects. Spells such as Proctiv's move mountain, Ioulaum's longevity, and Tolodine's killing wind, existed as true 10th+ spells before the Fall, and after the Fall were created as Epic Spells that duplicated their effects (or roughly, they aren't exact duplications). Basically, some Epic Spells were created and had the iconic names tagged on, despite not being the originals. While Epic Spells are considered "10th" level for certain things, they are not in actuality true 10th+ spells, much like true dweomers were in 2e.
Chanmanm8 03-12-07, 02:18 PM	She banned true level spells of 10th+. Her Ban has never applied to Epic Spells, even those that duplicate true 10th+ effects. Spells such as Proctiv's move mountain, Ioulaum's longevity, and Tolodine's killing wind, existed as true 10th+ spells before the Fall, and after the Fall were created as Epic Spells that duplicated their effects (or roughly, they aren't exact duplications). Basically, some Epic Spells were created and had the iconic names tagged on, despite not being the originals. While Epic Spells are considered "10th" level for certain things, they are not in actuality true 10th+ spells, much like true dweomers were in 2e. O...I see...I was under the misconception that Epic 10th was interchangeable with the "True" spell stuff...thanks! :D
Karsus the Mad 03-12-07, 02:22 PM	O...I see...I was under the misconception that Epic 10th was interchangeable with the "True" spell stuff...thanks! :D :tiphat: My pleasure. As the passage in LEoF mentions, such things have caused confusion amongst the sages of Faerun:)
MaskedOne 03-12-07, 02:31 PM	Eh, if I understand Shaman's question correctly then the answers so far provided are while semi-related, not relevant. Shaman seemed to be asking why Mystra would use an epic spell instead of exempting herself from the Ban (which is plausible, she made it after all and presumably controls it) and using a spell of level 10 or greater.
Chanmanm8 03-12-07, 02:37 PM	Eh, if I understand Shaman's question correctly then the answers so far provided are while semi-related, not relevant. Shaman seemed to be asking why Mystra would use an epic spell instead of exempting herself from the Ban (which is plausible, she made it after all and presumably controls it) and using a spell of level 10 or greater. Because exempting herself and casting the spell herself would mean she would get involved directly...which from the posts on this board and on the Epic Forum where I posted the same question, it seems Gods and Planar Lords avoid direct confrontations. EDIT: Um...I think...lol...i dunno ask Karsus the Mad or Jaerome Darkwind :confused:
Wizard56 03-12-07, 05:58 PM	Didn't I read somewhere that Halaster was a leftover arcanist from Netheril? If so, he'd already mastered 10th and 11th level spells at one time. It would be safer for Mystra to give him another such spell than someone else who had never worked at that level.
Karsus the Mad 03-12-07, 06:12 PM	Eh, if I understand Shaman's question correctly then the answers so far provided are while semi-related, not relevant. Shaman seemed to be asking why Mystra would use an epic spell instead of exempting herself from the Ban (which is plausible, she made it after all and presumably controls it) and using a spell of level 10 or greater. Because (and this is just my speculation) 1. We do not know if true 10th+ magic works outside of Realmspace and Dweomerheart. It may simply have been something unique to the Weave. Given the lack of any 10th+ level spells being flung around in planar lore, I highly doubt the planes are capable of such magic. 2. Outside of Realmspace and Dweomerheart, Mystra's divine dominion over magic has no relevance so it matters not at all if she exempts herself from her Ban. If the plane itself is incapable of supporting true 10th+ magic, then Mystra is not casting any true 10th+ spell. Hopefully that answers it:) Didn't I read somewhere that Halaster was a leftover arcanist from Netheril? If so, he'd already mastered 10th and 11th level spells at one time. It would be safer for Mystra to give him another such spell than someone else who had never worked at that level. Many believe he's Imaskari, tho' one of the authors hinted that it's more probable that he's of Raurinese descent (same region).
dragonheart 03-12-07, 09:21 PM	Whether Imaskai or Raurinese Halaster is old enough to haver reqached archmage status before the fall of Netheril and so potentially was capable of casting true 10th+ level spells. THat however really doesn't matter here - as KArsus explained its what is allowed on the planes where the spells are both cast and taking effect and Epic works everywhere so when in doubt you use it. As for why she gave the spell to Halaster I can think of two major reasons - one already covered : to avoid direct interaction with another planar lord in his own territory. It might also make it much harder to trace the origin and track the source back to her. Second having Halaster do it does several things for him and she fairly obviously has some plans for him still. by teaching him the spell she was able to not only pull much of the insanity out of his mind but also to cleans him of the taint of shar left in him from earlier backstory/history restoring him to a status where she can use him safely for her plans. Ssince he never wrote it down and is not listed as having the Epic spellcasting feat its not something he can easily recreate for personal use latter.
The_Shaman 03-13-07, 05:00 AM	Hmm, I haven't read the book myself, so I can't say - but I supposed from what Realmslore I know that if, for whatever reason, Mystra has to use a high-level spell she can just ignore the ban for herself or for anyone she wants to use as a champion. Not a very lawful thing to do, but her current incarnation isn't lawful to begin with. Then again, I don't know what magic works on the various planes.
Red_Wizard 03-13-07, 10:20 AM	Expunge Insanity Enchantment Level: Mag8, Sor/Wiz9 Components:: V,S,F (See Text) Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: See Text Area: Personal Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Will Negates; Rebounds (See text) Spell Resistance: None * Note: This spell can only be used in a system, using sanity points. Sanity found on Pg. 194, of Unearthed Arcana. Created by a desperate mage, trying to purge his mind of the unwanted horrors that plagued him even in his waking hours, expunge insanity allows a caster to transfer a portion of his insanity, to another being, so long as he can first create a link with their mind. Distance is irrelevant for this spell, so transfering your troubles across planes is intirely possible. The Target however must be something you can knowingly name, and picture clearly enough in your mind to establish the link required before casting. Upon completion of the spell, a portion, or all of your insanity can be willingly purged from your system, to be sent hurtling into the mind of your target. The Target must make a DC 15 will save, Plus 1 for ever 5 additional insanity points being transferred. Should they fail, their mind is instantly ravaged by nightmares, from the darkest pits of their subconcious, leaving them terrified, and prone for 1d12 minutes. The draw back to this spell, is that those of sound and powerful mind, have a good chance of reflecting the spell back upon the caster. If the Will save beats the spells DC by 10 or more, the insanity is completly reverted, and amplified by the momentary contact with the other beings mind. The insanity point value is increased by 50%, for every two points past 10 the DC was beaten by. (IE: DC 15, target rolls a 20, and has a 14 Will bonus, the insanity returned would be 200%. 9 over, Divided by 2 = 4 x 50%.) Focus: Targets mind
Karsus the Mad 03-13-07, 03:12 PM	Hmm, I haven't read the book myself, so I can't say - but I supposed from what Realmslore I know that if, for whatever reason, Mystra has to use a high-level spell she can just ignore the ban for herself or for anyone she wants to use as a champion. Not a very lawful thing to do, but her current incarnation isn't lawful to begin with. Then again, I don't know what magic works on the various planes. Her Ban doesn't extend to the planes however (save for Dweomerheart of course), since her Weave doesn't exist anywhere else. She'd rely on the magic of whichever plane she's on. We're not sure if true 10th+ magic is supported on planes without the Weave however. It might be a unique artefact of the Weave. Tho' if such heights of magic are possible, it'd certainly be a more plausible answer. I tried finding an answer (or anything that suggested actually) for one way or another, but to no avail. Maybe someone else has had better luck? Then again, one must take the perspective in which the situation was written from;) I highly doubt rules apply:P
Chanmanm8 03-13-07, 05:42 PM	Her Ban doesn't extend to the planes however (save for Dweomerheart of course), since her Weave doesn't exist anywhere else. She'd rely on the magic of whichever plane she's on. We're not sure if true 10th+ magic is supported on planes without the Weave however. It might be a unique artefact of the Weave. Tho' if such heights of magic are possible, it'd certainly be a more plausible answer. I tried finding an answer (or anything that suggested actually) for one way or another, but to no avail. Maybe someone else has had better luck? Then again, one must take the perspective in which the situation was written from;) I highly doubt rules apply:P I, as a powergamer, came up with this idea a long while ago. Jaerom Darkwind told me its not possible and I had forgotten what his explanation was. GOOD THING I HAD ASKED HIM AGAIN LAST WEEK: Magic isn't powerful enough anywhere except on Toril to allow such spells to be cast. It's a unique trait of the Abier-Toril Crystal Sphere, mediated by the Weave. Such spells are impossible anywhere else. . JD Thats part of it, but ya he was referencing from the basis of its creation back from materials from older editions as well.
MarkusTay63 03-13-07, 07:24 PM	Hmmm... I guess back in the day when I used to play in Greyhawk and found a book with 15th level spells, it must have come from FR. ;) Just read this day before yesterday in Skullport, pg.6 - "By the time he drove the Drow from his domain, Halaster had abandoned his lair above ground and taken up permanent residence in the Lands Below. His actions in building and stocking the Underhalls and taking on apprentices to teach attracted explorers and adventurers from the four corners of Toril, among them a wizard by the name of Shradin Mulophor. A contemporary of Halsters from faded Netheril, the necromancer known as Shradin Mulophor was the only man to ever exceed the expectations of Halaster." Of course, that doesn't mean he couldn't have left Imaskar and went to Netheril early on, they did overlap by a few hundred years. The only thing we really know from that statement was tha Halaster MET Shradin Mulophor in Netheril, but either one of them could have been from elsewhere originally. In fact, I mention BOTH of them in a piece I'm working on... :plotting:
Karsus the Mad 03-13-07, 07:40 PM	Actually, it means that Halaster met a person who was from Netheril, not that Halaster met him in Netheril. The sentence above that suggests the guy came to Undermountain. The sentence after suggests Netheril had already fallen when they met. Given that Halaster didn't start "building" undermountain until 168 DR, well after Netheril had fallen, I don't think Halaster met the chap in Netheril;) Heh...and there had been a Netherese demesne in undermountain way back in -800 DR.... Maybe Halaster popped in through the guys roof:P Just joking there.
MarkusTay63 03-13-07, 10:06 PM	Hmmmm... I had gotten that they both had been in Netheril at some point, I guess it's all in how you interpret it. Shradin did meet up with Halaster in Undermountain waaay after it's fall though, that much is clear from the rest of the text.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-14-07, 02:00 AM	Her Ban doesn't extend to the planes however (save for Dweomerheart of course), since her Weave doesn't exist anywhere else. She'd rely on the magic of whichever plane she's on. We're not sure if true 10th+ magic is supported on planes without the Weave however. It might be a unique artefact of the Weave. Tho' if such heights of magic are possible, it'd certainly be a more plausible answer. I tried finding an answer (or anything that suggested actually) for one way or another, but to no avail. Maybe someone else has had better luck? Then again, one must take the perspective in which the situation was written from;) I highly doubt rules apply:P Are we sure that it’s actually a ban? I was under the impression that when Mystra recreated the Weave she simple made it incapable of supporting 10+ magic. That’s why we have to us epic magic. Maybe I read it the description of what she did wrong. :confused:
Stigger 03-14-07, 02:57 AM	You did... she specifically removed the ability to cast spells of 10th level or higher from Faerun. Didn't touch Epic magic though for some reason.
herceg 03-14-07, 03:43 AM	If I recall correctly, the book Secrets of the Magister states that someone desperate enough can use 10th level spells, although with a high risk, etc (losing office?). That implies that the weave still has the capacity to somehow - in a limited manner (hence the serious consequences) - support 10th level spells.
Karsus the Mad 03-14-07, 08:30 AM	Are we sure that it’s actually a ban? I was under the impression that when Mystra recreated the Weave she simple made it incapable of supporting 10+ magic. That’s why we have to us epic magic. Maybe I read it the description of what she did wrong. :confused: It's a Ban. However, various tales of the incident have both said she simply banned such magic, as well as said that she recreated the Weave to prevent such magic. I tend to go with the first one tho', since in previous editions elves still had access to true 10th+ magic, and certain individuals could still cast true 10th+ magic with Mystra's approval. However, again, reading NEoM, Mystra never banned 10th+ magic. She only banned 11th+ magic. This makes sense, given that numerous people after the Ban had cast true 10th+ magic. In 3.5 it's different. She's banned 10th+ from all mortals, and the "10th level magic" of the elves, and those few who had cast "10th level spells" after the Fall instead actually had utilized Epic magic. There...I think I got it right. A bit confoozled it can be:P
Chanmanm8 03-14-07, 10:21 AM	If I recall correctly, the book Secrets of the Magister states that someone desperate enough can use 10th level spells, although with a high risk, etc (losing office?). That implies that the weave still has the capacity to somehow - in a limited manner (hence the serious consequences) - support 10th level spells. Yes...Jaerom also wrote that...the Magister and the Chosen can still access those spells if they absolutely have to, but will lose their title and other stuff as harsh punishment.
MarkusTay63 03-14-07, 01:19 PM	I hear that in 4.0 she is going to ban 9th level spells, and 8th level will only be available to Bullywugs.
herceg 03-14-07, 04:12 PM	:rofl: :heehee :rofl: EDIT: Dead bullywugs shall rule the world entire...
Rude 03-16-07, 09:53 PM	It could have just been a fancy 9th level spell as statted above. Mystra would not need to resort to lifting her 10+ ban. Isn't she capable of creating any spell on the fly? I doubt it's beyond her power to plant one in someone's mind too. Why she didn't just blast Asmo is beyond me. Guess there are probably some long standing deals and alliances between powerful beings. Asmodeous isn't a god and probably couldn't just shrug it off one of Hallasters spells.
The Simbul 03-16-07, 11:22 PM	I also don't understand why we are premising the discussion on the idea that it was an epic spell, largely since epic spells didn't exist in the 3E rules when the novel was written, and since Halaster cannot cast epic spells on his own anyways. Beyond that, transferring insanity from one character to another, or drawing upon one's own insanity to stun or meddle with the memories of another, would all be reasonable effects for a normal spell of 9th level or lower. As mentioned above, Mystra can spontaneously invent new spells as a free-action (up to 20 per round) and granting them to another character as a prepared spell is well within her power. As for why Mystra didn't just blast Asmodeus directly, its can easily be blamed on the notion that the full range of powers and options of Gods and Archmages are grossly downplayed and/or blatantly overlooked when the majority of novels are written. In this case however it is more blamable on the fact that the statistics and powers of many of the associated beings were not even published yet in the rules to begin with. Mystra's statistics in Faiths and Pantheons were not published until LONG after the novel was written, and the same goes for Asmodeus and the other lords of the nine layers, let alone whatever diminished powers of some as of yet unquantified exiled archdevil you could extrapolate from them. By the rules published well over a year after the novel was written, Mystra could in fact use a quickened miracle to place herself right next to Asmodeus, incinerate him with a divine blast, and he would have little recourse or defense against it, other than to hide behind a DM who puts literature above the rules at the gaming table (or, in the case of previous discussions on this issue on other message boards, when someone who can't argue your point as written within the rules instead takes out of context quotations of your main point and then runs off to an ask Ed Greenwood thread seeking an "irrefutable" rebuttal...which incidentally still doesn't address the point within the rules).
Stigger 03-17-07, 01:29 AM	When all other logic fails, we always can rely on the never-faltering exclamation of DM's Fiat! (or author's by extension, since they are acting as DM in the context of the novel.) :D
Zsych 03-17-07, 04:42 AM	From what I recall of Mystra. She modified the rules for accessing higher spells(I don't recall which sourcebook says this). That means that where everyone else may not know how to access 10+ spells(through the Weave, I would think), she and anyone she chooses to teach, does. That arcanists could still cast them with help from Mystra... might mean that a secondary caster can provide the hidden component to a regular 10+ spell to let it work on its own. (I tend to view everyone as acting more or less within the rules, although Mystra could likely craft rules specially for herself) ... Hmm... I don't think that Mystra's Weave extends to the Hells, so her ban is meaningless there. Whether the 10+ spells of Toril would work under the magical laws of Hell is a seperate issue. Since there are no Netherese style arcanists around anywhere outside Toril, one might assume that the laws of magic in Toril were different pre-Karsus Folly, than those elsewhere across the planes(makes me wonder what the arcanists experienced when they went to other planes... since current day wizards face no problems, I'd expect Arcanists of Netheril to face problems and be forced to adapt to magic that functions differently) --- As for Asmodeus... even gods fear this dude. I'd say that if Mystra's spell effected him for even an instant, it must have been one god awful monster of a spell(I choose to ignore his stats here :)). The idea of Halaster forcing his insanity into Asmodeus is interesting. Though I think its a result of splitting his consciousness into all of his (temporary?)clones in Undermountain, and maybe some other stuff. After all, he did become sane when he was kidnapped from Undermountain. -- @Simbul: Literature is worth more than the rules. Stats are game simplifications of things, and they tend to change. I would think that any DM who statted Asmodeus, a character who has ruled Hell since almost forever and faced who knows how many challenges... very high. Or rather, higher than his Players can reasonably be expected to defeat at least. If he could be defeated and control of Hell taken from him, there are no doubt countless powerful beings around who would've chosen to do it. That implies, that if he is statted, he should be statted as a being who can handle threats of that level, and any other kind of statting is obviously wrong.
The_Shaman 03-17-07, 12:29 PM	Zsych: there's more to ruling a layer of the 9 Hells than brute power imo. While Asmodeus is definitely a match for any other of the Archdukes, I think its more his wit and skill in intrigue that keep him there. The Demon Lords may face a disorderly mob that only understands strength, yet some among even them are masters of cunning. Asmodeus would, for me, be the ultimate politico. He would definitely be able to knock the crap out of a low-level epic party, but he need not be able to go one-on-one against a greater deity.
Rude 03-17-07, 01:49 PM	I'm sure gods only "fear" Asmodeus for his political clout. I think most gods could dust this dude one on one but with his legions of devils and forces at his command, he could wage a decent war against their followers and probably have them spend alot of resources defending those followers or even their own domains, leaving them vulnerable to rival gods. I'm sure Asmodeus has deals cut with evil gods for extra support. Mystra would probably think twice about disintigrating him if it meant having a ton of Bane's more powerful allies attack her or her followers. Alot of people see Asmodeus as the end all be all embodiment of evil but in the 20 something years of materials, the rules never had him as anything but a challenge to a really epic level party. If I were him, I'd worry about Lathander having another lawful good freak out and decide to go on a lower planes cleansing rampage with a bunch of like minded deities.
Zsych 03-17-07, 11:40 PM	If Asmodeus was dead, other devils wouldn't bother staying loyal to his corpse(although he could still set in motion, some vengeance... if his killer could be identified). Asmodeus may be a genius, but indirect power can only take you so far. If he is well below gods, then the alliances he can create with all of his devils would mean little to the forces that can be brought to bear against him(especially if a few greater gods join forces). Also, killing someone without revealing who did it, isn't impossible, and greater gods can do a fair job of hiding their hand in things(especially from other gods). Gods in places like Hell, aren't exactly being controlled by characters like Ao. -- ... So, either no god or group of gods(or any dangerous group of epic mortals) in all of history has truely aspired to being lord of Hell, or this guy who they fear, and who can at least defeat all of the arch-dukes(and anyone else they brought), alone, is a fair bit more dangerous than he lets on... He is supposed to be mysterious after all. I'd bet that stat-block of his is misinformation that he bought someone to print for him :P (I'll admit that the stats for him are kinda boring, considering who he is) ... I recall that Asmodeus can grant spells and such(if not like a god), not exactly your average long lived mortal equivalent.
GothicDan 03-17-07, 11:45 PM	Alot of people see Asmodeus as the end all be all embodiment of evil but in the 20 something years of materials, the rules never had him as anything but a challenge to a really epic level party. If I were him, I'd worry about Lathander having another lawful good freak out and decide to go on a lower planes cleansing rampage with a bunch of like minded deities. He personally arranged the entire Goblinoid pantheon from being outsed from Baator (which includes a Greater god) itself. And if you REALLY want to talk about ALL 20 something years of material, Asmodeus is statted as one of the creators of the universe with Jazirian, and as a Greater God. Directly.
boards 03-18-07, 07:39 AM	Who is Jazirian? I've heard his name mentioned a few times on here but never seen any info on him.:confused:
Zsych 03-18-07, 08:18 AM	Hail Wikipedia, for it doth contain more knowledge than all the Nether scrolls combined. Wikipedia on Asmodeus: Description Through all four editions of Dungeons and Dragons Asmodeus is depicted as the most handsome of all devils, and the strongest and most cunning. He is typically described as appearing as a giant human, about twice as tall as an average man, with handsome features and small horns on his forehead. He carries the Ruby Rod of Asmodeus, a glowing rod of pure ruby that serves as a badge of office as well as having several powerful offensive powers. Background In the Book of Vile Darkness, it is stated that while Asmodeus is the oldest devil in the nine hells, he may not be the original ruler. However with the Fiendish Codex II out and its newly revised CR's and information, this is not the case. Asmodeus is actually found to be originally an angel. He was 'the bravest, toughest, fiercest and most beautiful of angels' that the beings of law and good had to offer. After eons of fighting the creatures from the abyss, Asmodeus began to change. He started taking on the abilities and the demeanor of his enemies in order to fight them better. This is what began his descent into evil and the beginning of the 'Pact Primeval'. Eventually Asmodeus was entirely too good at his job and his fellow gods and angels began to fear his power. He was put on trial but the gods could not find fault with his doings, as he still obeyed and fulfilled their laws. Over time, Asmodeus and his fellow angels who fought the demons began to change even more horrifically into the demons they fought. Fangs jutted from their mouths and they wreathed themselves in mantles of fire. After the gods began their great project in creating mortals; Asmodeus gave an idea to the gods in helping to protect and punish those who digressed from law and goodness. This would help other mortals see that choosing the path of morality and goodness would lead to a paradise of rightful action instead of the torment of wicknedness and pain. Unfortunately the gods did not forsee that many mortals would walk down the wrong path and so their paradises were filled with pain and torment ringing throughout their domains. This caused them anguish so again they turned to Asmodeus for an answer. It was here the Pact Primeval was formed, and Asmodeus, Dispater and Mistopheles created the hells from Baator. The wicked would be punished there, where the gods could not enter, and the power that Asmodeus had originally derived from the gods would instead come from the mortals he punished. This way he was no longer tied with the gods and angels that dreaded and loathed him. The gods initially enjoyed this plan as it removed all degredation from their domains, however over time they came to realize that fewer souls were going to their domains. More were being divereted to Baator where Asmodeus was both punishing the wicked, and encouraging mortals to become wicked and thus end up on Baator and increase his powers. On the gods arrival, they witnessed the once barren wasteland to be a veritable utopia of pain and suffering. Demanding Asmodeus to account for himself he uttered his famous words in reference to the pact primeval, Read the fine print. The gods could find no fault with what he was doing, as it was all entirely lawful. I'm not sure I really like this ^. I like Asmo better as naturally evil. As an incarnation of the the core idea of Lawful Evil. Still, if he draws power from those in Baator that he tortures(similar to god's drawing power from worship), I can't believe that Mystra would be in his weight-class. Wikipedia on Jazirian: In many campaign settings for the Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game, Jazirian is the couatl deity of community, peace, learning, and parenthood. Jazirian is described as being one of the oldest gods, an equal in power to the highest greater deities. Jazirian's realm, known as Uroboros, the Gates of Wisdom, can be found on the plane of Mount Celestia. As for what a Couatl is: Couatls are known throughout the Dungeons & Dragons universe for their beauty, magic, and virtue. Due to their intelligence and devotion to good, they are worshipped by people who inhabit the same area as them. Environment Coutal inhabit warm jungles. Typical physical characteristics A couatl resembles a long, feathered serpent with a pair of rainbow-feathered wings that allow it to fly. They are around 12 feet (3.5 meters) in length, with a wingspan of 15 feet (4.5 meters). They weigh around 1,800 pounds (882 kilograms). Their powerful minds are capable of great psionic might. Alignment A couatl is always lawful good. Society Couatls live solitarily, in pairs, or in flights of 3-6 individuals. Their intellect is above that of most humans, and, although they do not use weapons and armour as a human might, they often own treasure. They typically speak Common, Draconic and Celestial. Coutal are highly dedicated to an asexual deity named Jazirian, though they have no true priests among their ranks, as Jazirian grants each couatl enough power and wisdom of their own. People living in the same area as couatl recognise this, and sometimes worship them as deities. Being outsiders, they hail from another plane, and can be summoned. The spell Summon Monster IX can summon a couatl.