Need Help with Campaign Involving Ancient Temple of Jergal [Archive] - Wizards Community

Need Help with Campaign Involving Ancient Temple of Jergal [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DoveArrow
03-18-08, 10:30 AM Let me give you a quick synopsis of what I'm working on right now. Long ago, under the Thaeravel Kingdom, the people of Rasilith built a massive, underground temple dedicated to the worship of Jergal. Entombed in the temple are the remains of a hunefer, a creature honored either as the divine emissary of the Pitiless One, or as the divine remains of one of his avatars. Of course the people of Rasilith are now long gone. However, the temple is still there, and that's where my campaign begins.

So that's the synopsis. Here's what I need help with. I'd like to somehow tie my bad guy more definitively into Realmslore. For example, is there some forgotten demigod connected with Jergal that was maybe briefly mentioned in some out of print publication? Perhaps there's a legend about Jergal's avatar being defeated by another god. (Actually, now that I think of it, did the gods even have avatars before the Time of Troubles?)

This is mostly a brainstorming session, so anything you think would be cool to throw into a campaign would be really helpful. Thanks.
Valgard
03-18-08, 10:56 AM I'm not an expert in such "ancient" lore, but the most you can find about Jergal is in his entry in the Faiths & Avatars series... I don't know if it's in Faiths & Avatars or in Powers & Pantheons.
Lord Karsus
03-18-08, 11:31 AM -Information about the 'old' Jergal can be found in the Netheril Box Set, which can be downloaded for free.
DoveArrow
03-18-08, 11:39 AM -Information about the 'old' Jergal can be found in the Netheril Box Set, which can be downloaded for free.

Yeah, I looked at that. I didn't find anything that really excited me.

Edit: Wait... nevermind. I do see something that might be interesting.

Jergal was served by a wide variety of creatures seen as harbingers
of death in various cultures. For example, great, whitebearded
vultures known as Nakasr’s children ferried spirits into
the afterlife to their preordained realms at Jergal’s bequest. The
Lord of the End of Everything also exerted his influence
through a variety of undead tied to the Negative Energy Plane,
such as shadows, spectres, and wraiths, as well as trillochs,
wastrels, and xeg-yi.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
03-18-08, 11:51 AM Perhaps there's a legend about Jergal's avatar being defeated by another god.

We do know that Jergal gave his old portfolios to Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul (mainly out of indifference).

(Actually, now that I think of it, did the gods even have avatars before the Time of Troubles?)

Yes.

This is mostly a brainstorming session, so anything you think would be cool to throw into a campaign would be really helpful. Thanks.

I'd like to point out that there is plenty of room to make up your own stuff, here.:)
Meldread
03-18-08, 11:53 AM There really isn't that much information on Jergal out there unfortunately. He's a great deity that is often overlooked. I'm glad you're using him!

Since there isn't much lore on Jergal you can pretty much make up whatever you want. He's a very old and ancient deity, so that leaves you lots of room to fill in stuff. You shouldn't feel the need to tie yourself down to cannon lore.
DoveArrow
03-18-08, 12:38 PM There really isn't that much information on Jergal out there unfortunately. He's a great deity that is often overlooked. I'm glad you're using him!

Since there isn't much lore on Jergal you can pretty much make up whatever you want. He's a very old and ancient deity, so that leaves you lots of room to fill in stuff. You shouldn't feel the need to tie yourself down to cannon lore.

I don't think it's absolutely necessary to use canon lore. However, I feel like it always gives the game a little extra something whenever you can tie it in.
DoveArrow
03-18-08, 12:42 PM We do know that Jergal gave his old portfolios to Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul (mainly out of indifference).

That was after the fall of the Thaeravel Kingdom, though, yes?
Old Sage
03-18-08, 08:29 PM I'm not an expert in such "ancient" lore, but the most you can find about Jergal is in his entry in the Faiths & Avatars series... I don't know if it's in Faiths & Avatars or in Powers & Pantheons.Jergal's extensive entry is within the pages of Powers & Pantheons.

And for an alternate [and non-canonical] take on Jergal, I would suggest you read through Eric Boyd's FR conversion notes of DUNGEON's "Age of Worms" adventure path, which began in issue #124. You can find the conversion notes at http://www.paizo.com/.
DoveArrow
03-19-08, 10:35 AM Jergal's extensive entry is within the pages of Powers & Pantheons.

And for an alternate [and non-canonical] take on Jergal, I would suggest you read through Eric Boyd's FR conversion notes of DUNGEON's "Age of Worms" adventure path, which began in issue #124. You can find the conversion notes at http://www.paizo.com/.

I'm guessing you're talking about the Age of Worms Overload article. I honestly don't know, since the link you provided only took me to Paizo's main page. In any event, I have read it, and it's very good.

It's actually funny that you mention it, because the campaign I'm working on is actually an epic continuation of the Age of Worms game. The original Age of Worms campaign was run by a different DM, who used Forgotten Realms (or at least something that closely resembles it) as the campaign setting. I'm now trying to do a little bit of retconning to more firmly establish the campaign in the Realms. Here are some of the things I'm changing.

I'm changing the name of Kyuss's homeland from Sulm to Thaeravel, and establishing Rasilith as the city where he was born.
Our original DM substituted Jergal for Nerull (who is the god that Kyuss originally worshipped), so I'm sticking with that and putting in an underground temple dedicated to Jergal in the city of Rasilith where Kyuss originally studied magic.
I'm saying that the people of Rasilith transformed themselves into the phaerimm soon after the Netherese invaded and overtook the city (see Lost Empires of Faerun), and that the phaerimm sealed themselves into the underground temple of Jergal. There, they waited until they could take back the city during the Netheril Empire's Shadowed Age. Note: I am well aware that the phaerimm existed long before the fall of the Thaeravel Kingdom. However, I doubt very seriously that my players even know who the phaerimm are, let alone the fact that they played a hand in bringing down the Sarrukh Empire. That said, if they challenge me on the issue, I'll just tell them that many races have become phaerimm over the centuries, that it's a transformation that can only occur to races who are highly advanced in the understanding of magic, and that they must have a desire for vengeance against another culture or people. I'm not sure, but I think this was a theory that was first put forth by Eric Boyd on the Candlekeep forums in order to account for the various stories about the origins of the phaerimm. In any event, even if it wasn't Eric, that's where I got the idea from.
I have the minions of Kyuss attacking the phaerimm and trying to establish control over the ancient temple, both as retribution against the descendants of those who banished Kyuss from Rasilith, but also to take advantage of the mythallar that is housed there.

The first adventure is going to involve the PCs traveling to find a man named Shildhran, one of the wizards that helped Manzorian on the Ethereal Plane during the final battle with Kyuss. Manzorian tells them that Shildhran is very knowledgeable about planar magic, and that he can help them create the focus needed to cast the spell plane shift and travel to Kyuss's prison plane. After some investigation, the PCs discover that Shildhran has traveled to Rasilith. After fighting their way through a horde of baddies, ranging from asabi, to beholders, to phaerimm, to the servants of Kyuss, they eventually find that Shildhran has been enslaved by the phaerimm. In order to get him back, the PCs will either need to negotiate with the phaerimm, agreeing to defeat the servants of Kyuss occupying Jergal's temple in exchange for his safe return, or defeat the phaerimm in epic combat.

By the way, I ultimately decided to go with my original idea of having the hunefer be the remains of one of Jergal's former avatars. I think it's a neat ideea and I think it fits with the fact that many of the leaders of Jergal's churches were advanced mummies.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
03-19-08, 11:51 AM That was after the fall of the Thaeravel Kingdom, though, yes?

I don't know, sorry.:embarrass
Old Sage
03-19-08, 08:27 PM That was after the fall of the Thaeravel Kingdom, though, yes?Indeed, it was.
1 ton ghost
03-21-08, 01:36 PM my g/f's playing a 1/2 Bedine, 1/2 Chondathan (Cormyrian) cleric of Jergal. very heavy on the scribing aspect, even dumped in ranks there which impressed the Hell out of me given their crap progression (2+Int/Lvl). even took Spirit Sense (Heroes of Horror). very dynamic and fun to watch in play.
surpisingly, well developed and it RPs itself really.
IMO, clerics are the easiest to role play as alot of the legwork is laid out in the dogma and tenets. having Death in your repetoir and a decidely LN bent makes it very fleshed out w/out alot of grey area.

anyway, being primordial and old, Jergal's not very popular (now), especially when the other PCs want to play in the Silver Marches...again. apart from Thay, i can't really think of a place he is widely revered presently. basically, it's like her and a Mulani (Jergalite) friar that operate a small shrine (read, library/crypt) near the Vault of the Sages in a sort of joint help capacity w/ the clerics of Oghma. they share the whole scholastic schtick fairly close, so i figured, what the Hell. no other "real worshipers" of Jergal in Silverymoon though and prosyletizing isn't her bag, you know?

anyway, rambling...sorry.

only related divine stuff apart from the bane/bhaal/myrkul split is Kezef the Chaos Hound which allegedly precipitated the parceling out of his portfolios when he was "down and out". for your theoretical dungeon, you could use a locust swarm or the divine components thereof (BoEd i think). a Crypt Warden (Deathless) would be largely appropriate, though i'm fishy on actual Undead. sure there are plenty of undead to use that aren't technically "Evil".

um, what's up w/ the undead stipulation anyway? someone made mention that he used them in that 2nd ed publication nod, but Faiths and Pantheons pretty much says that he is markedly against them. is there like a limited capacity to his tolerance or something? not sure. thoughts, ideas?
The_Shaman
03-22-08, 05:49 PM As far as I know, he is generally opposed to prolonging one's life into undeath, but has little of the BURN! CRUSH! ANNIHILATE reaction that Kelemvor has. Faiths and Pantheons itself, btw, implies that he can tolerate undead and even accept them as part of the cult. The first is the mention of the Companions of the Pallid Mask (and boy, have I looked for information on them) hunting not sanctioned or troublesome undead. This implies that a) some undead can be accepted, if not outright "sanctioned" by the church, and in general it's not likely to pursue any of the restless dead if they don't cause too much trouble. The second is the mention that some of his clerics/archivists (I think Jergal's cult would be one of the prime ways to include an archivist in a FR campaign) seek "church-sponsored undeath" to continue their work.

I've run a LN necromancer in one game and thought about steering her towards the Pale Master PrC. I was thinking of gettin a necropolitan archivist of Jergal as an undead cohort. Too bad the game didn't look stable enough to hit even lvl 5...
MarkusTay63
03-22-08, 07:40 PM I peg Jergal as an ancient diety, and he is worshipped as Tchk'Clk-tok'Chaa, the Thri-Kreen god of Death (Thats Homebrew, but you can also using him for Xephs, or any other 'bug' people). ;)

And for an alternate [and non-canonical] take on Jergal, I would suggest you read through Eric Boyd's FR conversion notes of DUNGEON's "Age of Worms" adventure path, which began in issue #124. You can find the conversion notes at http://www.paizo.com/.Funny you should bring that up... I was just using it as a reference the other day. :D

The Samarach Map (http://markustay.deviantart.com/art/Samarach-80728579)

Kulath-Mar is from the Age of Worms Adventure Path, and is therefore only Psuedo-Canonical. The Pirate Town (Black Corsairs) of Belīt is Homebrew (based on Conan Stuff), along with the names of the Bay and nearby Islands.

Everything else is canon. ;)
1 ton ghost
03-22-08, 11:05 PM As far as I know, he is generally opposed to prolonging one's life into undeath, but has little of the BURN! CRUSH! ANNIHILATE reaction that Kelemvor has. Faiths and Pantheons itself, btw, implies that he can tolerate undead and even accept them as part of the cult. The first is the mention of the Companions of the Pallid Mask (and boy, have I looked for information on them) hunting not sanctioned or troublesome undead. This implies that a) some undead can be accepted, if not outright "sanctioned" by the church, and in general it's not likely to pursue any of the restless dead if they don't cause too much trouble. The second is the mention that some of his clerics/archivists (I think Jergal's cult would be one of the prime ways to include an archivist in a FR campaign) seek "church-sponsored undeath" to continue their work.

I've run a LN necromancer in one game and thought about steering her towards the Pale Master PrC. I was thinking of gettin a necropolitan archivist of Jergal as an undead cohort. Too bad the game didn't look stable enough to hit even lvl 5...

thank you...
that's what i was getting at and saying in game and my g/f, of course, takes a very unilatteral approach citing, "i'm LN" and so on in that all undead should be terminated as an affront to the church tenets. largely, i would argue, yes, most should given their predation and what not, but even elves are wise enough to help preserve their more "delicate lore" and "special powers" w/ baelnorns (good liches), etc. always an exception it would seem and Jergal is alot wiser than Kelemvor...he's been around alot longer for one and might understand the possible benefits of these grim scriveners having a leg up if they could not be handicapped by that whole "being alive schtick".

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DoveArrow 03-18-08, 10:30 AM	Let me give you a quick synopsis of what I'm working on right now. Long ago, under the Thaeravel Kingdom, the people of Rasilith built a massive, underground temple dedicated to the worship of Jergal. Entombed in the temple are the remains of a hunefer, a creature honored either as the divine emissary of the Pitiless One, or as the divine remains of one of his avatars. Of course the people of Rasilith are now long gone. However, the temple is still there, and that's where my campaign begins. So that's the synopsis. Here's what I need help with. I'd like to somehow tie my bad guy more definitively into Realmslore. For example, is there some forgotten demigod connected with Jergal that was maybe briefly mentioned in some out of print publication? Perhaps there's a legend about Jergal's avatar being defeated by another god. (Actually, now that I think of it, did the gods even have avatars before the Time of Troubles?) This is mostly a brainstorming session, so anything you think would be cool to throw into a campaign would be really helpful. Thanks.
Valgard 03-18-08, 10:56 AM	I'm not an expert in such "ancient" lore, but the most you can find about Jergal is in his entry in the Faiths & Avatars series... I don't know if it's in Faiths & Avatars or in Powers & Pantheons.
Lord Karsus 03-18-08, 11:31 AM	-Information about the 'old' Jergal can be found in the Netheril Box Set, which can be downloaded for free.
DoveArrow 03-18-08, 11:39 AM	-Information about the 'old' Jergal can be found in the Netheril Box Set, which can be downloaded for free. Yeah, I looked at that. I didn't find anything that really excited me. Edit: Wait... nevermind. I do see something that might be interesting. Jergal was served by a wide variety of creatures seen as harbingers of death in various cultures. For example, great, whitebearded vultures known as Nakasr’s children ferried spirits into the afterlife to their preordained realms at Jergal’s bequest. The Lord of the End of Everything also exerted his influence through a variety of undead tied to the Negative Energy Plane, such as shadows, spectres, and wraiths, as well as trillochs, wastrels, and xeg-yi.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-18-08, 11:51 AM	Perhaps there's a legend about Jergal's avatar being defeated by another god. We do know that Jergal gave his old portfolios to Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul (mainly out of indifference). (Actually, now that I think of it, did the gods even have avatars before the Time of Troubles?) Yes. This is mostly a brainstorming session, so anything you think would be cool to throw into a campaign would be really helpful. Thanks. I'd like to point out that there is plenty of room to make up your own stuff, here.:)
Meldread 03-18-08, 11:53 AM	There really isn't that much information on Jergal out there unfortunately. He's a great deity that is often overlooked. I'm glad you're using him! Since there isn't much lore on Jergal you can pretty much make up whatever you want. He's a very old and ancient deity, so that leaves you lots of room to fill in stuff. You shouldn't feel the need to tie yourself down to cannon lore.
DoveArrow 03-18-08, 12:38 PM	There really isn't that much information on Jergal out there unfortunately. He's a great deity that is often overlooked. I'm glad you're using him! Since there isn't much lore on Jergal you can pretty much make up whatever you want. He's a very old and ancient deity, so that leaves you lots of room to fill in stuff. You shouldn't feel the need to tie yourself down to cannon lore. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to use canon lore. However, I feel like it always gives the game a little extra something whenever you can tie it in.
DoveArrow 03-18-08, 12:42 PM	We do know that Jergal gave his old portfolios to Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul (mainly out of indifference). That was after the fall of the Thaeravel Kingdom, though, yes?
Old Sage 03-18-08, 08:29 PM	I'm not an expert in such "ancient" lore, but the most you can find about Jergal is in his entry in the Faiths & Avatars series... I don't know if it's in Faiths & Avatars or in Powers & Pantheons.Jergal's extensive entry is within the pages of Powers & Pantheons. And for an alternate [and non-canonical] take on Jergal, I would suggest you read through Eric Boyd's FR conversion notes of DUNGEON's "Age of Worms" adventure path, which began in issue #124. You can find the conversion notes at http://www.paizo.com/.
DoveArrow 03-19-08, 10:35 AM	Jergal's extensive entry is within the pages of Powers & Pantheons. And for an alternate [and non-canonical] take on Jergal, I would suggest you read through Eric Boyd's FR conversion notes of DUNGEON's "Age of Worms" adventure path, which began in issue #124. You can find the conversion notes at http://www.paizo.com/. I'm guessing you're talking about the Age of Worms Overload article. I honestly don't know, since the link you provided only took me to Paizo's main page. In any event, I have read it, and it's very good. It's actually funny that you mention it, because the campaign I'm working on is actually an epic continuation of the Age of Worms game. The original Age of Worms campaign was run by a different DM, who used Forgotten Realms (or at least something that closely resembles it) as the campaign setting. I'm now trying to do a little bit of retconning to more firmly establish the campaign in the Realms. Here are some of the things I'm changing. I'm changing the name of Kyuss's homeland from Sulm to Thaeravel, and establishing Rasilith as the city where he was born. Our original DM substituted Jergal for Nerull (who is the god that Kyuss originally worshipped), so I'm sticking with that and putting in an underground temple dedicated to Jergal in the city of Rasilith where Kyuss originally studied magic. I'm saying that the people of Rasilith transformed themselves into the phaerimm soon after the Netherese invaded and overtook the city (see Lost Empires of Faerun), and that the phaerimm sealed themselves into the underground temple of Jergal. There, they waited until they could take back the city during the Netheril Empire's Shadowed Age. Note: I am well aware that the phaerimm existed long before the fall of the Thaeravel Kingdom. However, I doubt very seriously that my players even know who the phaerimm are, let alone the fact that they played a hand in bringing down the Sarrukh Empire. That said, if they challenge me on the issue, I'll just tell them that many races have become phaerimm over the centuries, that it's a transformation that can only occur to races who are highly advanced in the understanding of magic, and that they must have a desire for vengeance against another culture or people. I'm not sure, but I think this was a theory that was first put forth by Eric Boyd on the Candlekeep forums in order to account for the various stories about the origins of the phaerimm. In any event, even if it wasn't Eric, that's where I got the idea from. I have the minions of Kyuss attacking the phaerimm and trying to establish control over the ancient temple, both as retribution against the descendants of those who banished Kyuss from Rasilith, but also to take advantage of the mythallar that is housed there. The first adventure is going to involve the PCs traveling to find a man named Shildhran, one of the wizards that helped Manzorian on the Ethereal Plane during the final battle with Kyuss. Manzorian tells them that Shildhran is very knowledgeable about planar magic, and that he can help them create the focus needed to cast the spell plane shift and travel to Kyuss's prison plane. After some investigation, the PCs discover that Shildhran has traveled to Rasilith. After fighting their way through a horde of baddies, ranging from asabi, to beholders, to phaerimm, to the servants of Kyuss, they eventually find that Shildhran has been enslaved by the phaerimm. In order to get him back, the PCs will either need to negotiate with the phaerimm, agreeing to defeat the servants of Kyuss occupying Jergal's temple in exchange for his safe return, or defeat the phaerimm in epic combat. By the way, I ultimately decided to go with my original idea of having the hunefer be the remains of one of Jergal's former avatars. I think it's a neat ideea and I think it fits with the fact that many of the leaders of Jergal's churches were advanced mummies.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-19-08, 11:51 AM	That was after the fall of the Thaeravel Kingdom, though, yes? I don't know, sorry.:embarrass
Old Sage 03-19-08, 08:27 PM	That was after the fall of the Thaeravel Kingdom, though, yes?Indeed, it was.
1 ton ghost 03-21-08, 01:36 PM	my g/f's playing a 1/2 Bedine, 1/2 Chondathan (Cormyrian) cleric of Jergal. very heavy on the scribing aspect, even dumped in ranks there which impressed the Hell out of me given their crap progression (2+Int/Lvl). even took Spirit Sense (Heroes of Horror). very dynamic and fun to watch in play. surpisingly, well developed and it RPs itself really. IMO, clerics are the easiest to role play as alot of the legwork is laid out in the dogma and tenets. having Death in your repetoir and a decidely LN bent makes it very fleshed out w/out alot of grey area. anyway, being primordial and old, Jergal's not very popular (now), especially when the other PCs want to play in the Silver Marches...again. apart from Thay, i can't really think of a place he is widely revered presently. basically, it's like her and a Mulani (Jergalite) friar that operate a small shrine (read, library/crypt) near the Vault of the Sages in a sort of joint help capacity w/ the clerics of Oghma. they share the whole scholastic schtick fairly close, so i figured, what the Hell. no other "real worshipers" of Jergal in Silverymoon though and prosyletizing isn't her bag, you know? anyway, rambling...sorry. only related divine stuff apart from the bane/bhaal/myrkul split is Kezef the Chaos Hound which allegedly precipitated the parceling out of his portfolios when he was "down and out". for your theoretical dungeon, you could use a locust swarm or the divine components thereof (BoEd i think). a Crypt Warden (Deathless) would be largely appropriate, though i'm fishy on actual Undead. sure there are plenty of undead to use that aren't technically "Evil". um, what's up w/ the undead stipulation anyway? someone made mention that he used them in that 2nd ed publication nod, but Faiths and Pantheons pretty much says that he is markedly against them. is there like a limited capacity to his tolerance or something? not sure. thoughts, ideas?
The_Shaman 03-22-08, 05:49 PM	As far as I know, he is generally opposed to prolonging one's life into undeath, but has little of the BURN! CRUSH! ANNIHILATE reaction that Kelemvor has. Faiths and Pantheons itself, btw, implies that he can tolerate undead and even accept them as part of the cult. The first is the mention of the Companions of the Pallid Mask (and boy, have I looked for information on them) hunting not sanctioned or troublesome undead. This implies that a) some undead can be accepted, if not outright "sanctioned" by the church, and in general it's not likely to pursue any of the restless dead if they don't cause too much trouble. The second is the mention that some of his clerics/archivists (I think Jergal's cult would be one of the prime ways to include an archivist in a FR campaign) seek "church-sponsored undeath" to continue their work. I've run a LN necromancer in one game and thought about steering her towards the Pale Master PrC. I was thinking of gettin a necropolitan archivist of Jergal as an undead cohort. Too bad the game didn't look stable enough to hit even lvl 5...
MarkusTay63 03-22-08, 07:40 PM	I peg Jergal as an ancient diety, and he is worshipped as Tchk'Clk-tok'Chaa, the Thri-Kreen god of Death (Thats Homebrew, but you can also using him for Xephs, or any other 'bug' people). ;) And for an alternate [and non-canonical] take on Jergal, I would suggest you read through Eric Boyd's FR conversion notes of DUNGEON's "Age of Worms" adventure path, which began in issue #124. You can find the conversion notes at http://www.paizo.com/.Funny you should bring that up... I was just using it as a reference the other day. :D The Samarach Map (http://markustay.deviantart.com/art/Samarach-80728579) Kulath-Mar is from the Age of Worms Adventure Path, and is therefore only Psuedo-Canonical. The Pirate Town (Black Corsairs) of Belīt is Homebrew (based on Conan Stuff), along with the names of the Bay and nearby Islands. Everything else is canon. ;)
1 ton ghost 03-22-08, 11:05 PM	As far as I know, he is generally opposed to prolonging one's life into undeath, but has little of the BURN! CRUSH! ANNIHILATE reaction that Kelemvor has. Faiths and Pantheons itself, btw, implies that he can tolerate undead and even accept them as part of the cult. The first is the mention of the Companions of the Pallid Mask (and boy, have I looked for information on them) hunting not sanctioned or troublesome undead. This implies that a) some undead can be accepted, if not outright "sanctioned" by the church, and in general it's not likely to pursue any of the restless dead if they don't cause too much trouble. The second is the mention that some of his clerics/archivists (I think Jergal's cult would be one of the prime ways to include an archivist in a FR campaign) seek "church-sponsored undeath" to continue their work. I've run a LN necromancer in one game and thought about steering her towards the Pale Master PrC. I was thinking of gettin a necropolitan archivist of Jergal as an undead cohort. Too bad the game didn't look stable enough to hit even lvl 5... thank you... that's what i was getting at and saying in game and my g/f, of course, takes a very unilatteral approach citing, "i'm LN" and so on in that all undead should be terminated as an affront to the church tenets. largely, i would argue, yes, most should given their predation and what not, but even elves are wise enough to help preserve their more "delicate lore" and "special powers" w/ baelnorns (good liches), etc. always an exception it would seem and Jergal is alot wiser than Kelemvor...he's been around alot longer for one and might understand the possible benefits of these grim scriveners having a leg up if they could not be handicapped by that whole "being alive schtick".